FoxxDragon

So i tried to look up your pull quote, Torzelan. Here are some things I learned: -That quote doesn't exist. I couldn't find it. I read through the site and even did control+F and watched the video. Didn't see it. So. Uhhhh..? -In fact, the only place it even says the word "fundraiser" on the whole KS page is to mention "Jimmy did OCR's first fundraiser" It says it once. in the context of the past. -Furthermore, there is barely any mention of anything about funding going to OCR anywhere on the KS site. There are about 3 or 4 small brief mentions of it. And ZERO in the video. 95% of the text on the KS site is: SURPRISE.. about MAKING HARD COPIES. -The spot where it says it the most clearly is on the original OCR announcement page on the site itself. And it says "We want this to be the biggest, hugest, most awesomest fundraiser in OCR history" (oh hey did you know that fundraising via kickstarter isn't allowed? yeah you did. you said so already. But we get to get around it since there was an album associated with the drive. Even though the bulk of the KS money is set to go elsewhere from the get go. ) Bonus round of learning (the more you know!): -Most of the so called "rewards", cost more than the actual items themselves. Except the $1 one. The 5k/10k ones debatable though on their own world altogether. $10 "reward" for a $5 album. $25 "reward" for a $17 package $50 reward for an album that costs $10 to make + $17 package ($27) $100 for an $27 package + an album that probably cost $10 (or LESS) to make ($37) For a group sooooooooo firmly against themselves or others profiting off this stuff, those sure are some interesting numbers. You guys are impossible. It would be so so so easy and civil to simply realize that you advertized this completely wrong,and own up to it- even by simply admitting it. But no. Gotta insult. Jesus christ. People are not "pulling things out of their arse"- unless you mean facts, and math. And we are not "making up conspiracies" or "taking sides firmly against OCR" and whatever negative, snarky thing you have to say about legitimate complaints. I've been more than civil through this whole discussion and you're STILL saying the same stupid snarky remarks. WHY everyone ELSE has to be wrong, an idiot, a jerk, and a conspiracy spouting loon, instead of just MAYBE the fact it was set up poorly, is beyond me. Just impossible to come to terms with that, isn't it? But hey. you made the money right? so who cares. It could be argued that it went far better than it would have if it was set up in a more reasonable way. Lord knows you wouldn't have made this type of money otherwise. I personally cared because I wanted an understanding both from the staff- and from the community who so fiercely defends it. It isn't right. at all. And like hell would it be even remotely acceptable for other people to do this. OCR doesn't get a pass because they're OCR. We could say "yeah, we're only human, mistakes were made" and move on, but NOPE! Just can't do it! Everyone ELSE must be wrong. Oh, and stupid. don't forget that. The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result. I've been doing that, and I've definitely gone insane. So consider this my last post on the subject in these forums. Call me an asshole, a conspiracy theorist, pulling facts out of my ass, a hater, whatever. The facts are there. if you choose to pretend otherwise, thats your problem.

For the record: I personally don't think you guys are being shady. I said that before- it's a few pages back now. But that wasn't my complaint. I can see why people have such a worry, but thats not mine. Personally. The only reason I keep bringing it up now is because people keep going "man what are people complaining about!? Don't you understand kickstarter? don't you understand ________" I felt like Zircon actually answered the $50 question just fine, before. Which was that it wasn't thought through well enough. I'm okay with this. But then people still want to be up in arms about why thats even an issue- which means you're calling me or anyone else who takes issue with it, an idiot. While simultaneously saying that it WAS thought through just fine. And so, thats not okay. I feel like myself and others who took issue, have valid reasons for it.

------------ Why Kickstarter? Even though this album will be distributed for FREE via ocremix.org, we plan on printing LIMITED EDITION PHYSICAL COPIES. So for $50 you can help fund our most epic album yet AND get a baller FOUR-DISC limited edition physical copy $50 REWARD = FF6: BALANCE AND RUIN (4 DISCS)!!!!!! Will I be able to buy this album some other way, after the kickstarter is over? No; this is a one-off fundraiser to support the album & the site, not a foray into operating as any sort of store/marketplace/etc. We don't know exactly what the future has in store but we can say with total confidence that this will be your single best chance of obtaining a physical copy of this album --------- Yes. It sure is strange why people might think that. I'll make you a deal, guys. Stop acting surprised, upset, and offended that people like myself, see it pitched this way, and I'll stop pointing it out.

Well I didn't mean to imply that your rules and such would affect any other album. Obviously it doesn't. But as I understood it- you used the link as an example of why you take issues with other albums. IE: heres what we do, so when others don't do this, it's an issue. HOWEVER! I understand the Terms of Agreement thing now. Sorry for that. 1st part is the topic at hand. 2nd part is for other people. got it

Hmm, okay, I apologize for misunderstanding that. Now I'm a bit more confused though.. You brought it up to point out why VV (as an example) was a problem. And you said, you want others to follow these same rules. And that is why you want more official status albums (if I understand correctly) But, now you say those rules don't actually apply to specific OCR projects? Or.. OCR as an entity? And are just for the artists? If that were true, what bearing would it have on VV or other non OCR projects? Does OCR have a different set of guidelines for official projects?

Well DJP, you linked to the content policy, which I appreciate because I had never actually read through it before. So now I would ask you or any OCR Staff to explain this: A.) No profit is made from the exercise of this license. This includes but is not limited to incorporation of OverClocked ReMixes into commercial works, charging or accepting more than the cost of the delivery means or medium(s) for redistributing OverClocked ReMixes, I have a feeling this is going to come down to more semantics again, but let me use a basic way of describing it. You say the albums aren't for sale. Okay fine. But the clause ALSO says "or accepting more than the cost". The cost was 15k. for 1500 albums cost = $10 per album you listed the kickstarter to accept (IE only way to receive the album) at $50 for 1000 copies Actual acceptance = 5x over cost of producing (or a little less. since not all albums are allowed on the KS) I'm perfectly willing to just say "man, you REALLY did not think this through at all" but it's so much of an oversight that you seem to forget your own policy. Which is strange, because you say this is the measuring stick for all things OCR. But at the same time, you don't think you didn't think it through. While you can argue the definition of profit: the actual clause explicitly says no accepting more than the cost. It's been pointed out that you usually take things at a loss- which I'd completely be unsurprised about. I'm not even arguing that you should take things as a loss. But this seems contrary to your policy. EDIT Oh- i should note though, it's obvious via updates that more things will come instead. And thats okay. thats good, even. But this is strictly about the inital offering.

That seems pretty reasonable.

Come on Moogle. you said you disagree the album is $50, then you say "but the asking price was $50" the fact the music is going to be free is irrelevant in context of the kickstarter- which is the entire argument. The KS isn't about making the album happen. the KS is about making hard copies OF the album happen. with a side benefit of supporting OCR. Anyway- seriously, Zircon answered it. If you guys really want to go around and around about definitions of profit and what this is, I'm gonna bow out. But please remember how fiercely you argue those points, the next time a non-OCR album comes up. Because in my experience, the tables flip on anything other than OCR. Just. Remember.

1st sentence: Don't worry CnC, I've known this for a long. looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time. Be sure you don;t forget though! I'll be calling upon you again some daaaaaaay. 2nd: what? we had a moment. damn it man. back to semantics.

Gario. You're arguing semantics again. We can't pretend until we're blue in the face, that the asking price of the album wasn't $50, but it was. Sale, Donations, contribution. Good Deed. Whatever you want to call it. You dont own the album til you give $50. Zircon's answer is better. Thanks for the answer. I said before- and again, I don't think you guys did this as malicious intent to pocket money, but the way it was set up didn't really add up at all. Side mentioning "oh other profits can go to OCR.." is a sneaky way of doing it via kickstarter. Accidentally sneaky I guess. Defenders here have often been like "well the extras go to help OCR! so its great!" but you specifically said KS doesn't allow that if you had that be the main goal and the album as a side goal. But DJP calls it this year's fundraiser. So, it gets very cloudy, very fast. One positive thing to note: the rewards above the 50 mark are completely unrelated to feeling deception. those are all OBVIOUSLY people who threw their support for the love. And you have a handful of those, so, thats cool. THATS some fundraising. I don't hate this album, or the people on it- Just to make that clear. Thanks for answering the questions Zircon. One last thing: Now that we have an understanding, I'd hope that if ANYONE ELSE besides OCR ever does something similar, they wouldn't be frowned upon. I mean, I hope no one ever does this massive underestimation of album sales for their project, and end up with THIS much profit. But, anyone else ever trying to just make a hard copy, should be given more of a benefit of the doubt. I'm saving this quote forever: Yes, this project made a profit, but it wasn't set up for the express purpose to make a profit. Therefore it was not "for profit."

If all the albums were gone and therefore all that was left to toss in was "I LOVE YOU GUYS!" money? no. But since albums are still up to grabs. You think maybe people kept donating past the mark- which was a mere 1/5th the asking cost.. because they wanted the album?

Alright, what you're basically saying is you put it at $50 as a deterrent. "most people won't go this high". Which seems incredibly bizarre since the entire pitch is about getting the album. Why you didn't think the majority of people would want to actually own the album, i don't know. But if thats the case, okay. I think that the problem is you guys used this as a dual purpose. You marketed as owning the album, but a large (and maybe when all said and done) LARGEST portion is going to the site itself. If this was marketed as OCRemix fundraiser with a bonus album if you give $50! I think myself- and most others, wouldn't have an issue. Hell, i'd probably even support it.But I also think if you did that, KS wouldn't go for it. I'll admit to not having the research of having gone through it myself, however. Please, please, please stop saying "it's not profit." Though. Anything above cost is profit. Just because it goes back into the site, and not your personal pocket, doesn't make it not profit. And for the record: I don't at all think you guys are pocketing this money. I'm SURE you'll put it to use. But thats still profit.

Come on guys. That makes even less sense. If you are WORRIED about not making your cost, why would you charge MORE for your product? People are deterred by money, especially in the VG scene where so many are poor. If they offered the album at $20 a pop (even 25!) I can basically promise you it would be sold out by now. And 20 a pop would still be a larger profit margin than they were asking for. Want 15k CD cost = $10 for 1500 Actual cost for people to own = $50 5 times the production cost. Thats not "a little bit high"

You are absolutely correct, Kyle. those costs are a bitch! More than printing, even! But, thats part of the 15k. According to them. Printing costs: $5,600 for 1,500 copies in nice full-color DVD cases with 4 CDs each Delivery costs: $400 to get the printed CDs to OCR HQ in Fairfax, VA Shipping costs: $6,500 to ship up to 1,500 copies to donors and project ReMixers Kickstarter/Amazon fees: $1,500 Studio/mastering budget: $1,000 (remainder) to be used as-needed Thats 15k. So, that would have nothing to do with the fact that the album needs to be $50

Thats true, but you see, that would make it cost even less. Because the price per album goes down the more you print. If they want 15k, and they print 1500 of them, then that is a cost of $10 and album If they print 1000, then that is a cost of $15 per album See? Look, I know it seems to people who so fiercely defend it, that I'm trying to just be a jerk. I said my piece about VV because that was personal. This, though, I legitimately would like to know. I want someone to justify it. You guys aren't doing that. you're trying to argue semantics and act like this is a jealousy reaction. I swear that if these guys offered the album at even $20 when they're asking for 15k, I'd not even scoff at them. But the $50 is monstrously overblown. Or so it appears. Until someone explains it.

Yeah i saw that. And I... don't agree at all? The KS is for making the albums. Anything above that like say... funding for OCR as a whole, actually goes against KS's policies about finding charities or businesses (whichever one OCR falls under) But thats clouding it too. The money is FOR this album. I would donate because I want the album.. right? and maybe bonus stuff. bonus stuff is sweet. But a simple glance at the donations shows that by far the bulk is for the album (surprise!) So I ask, once again: Why is it $50 to get the album, when they only wanted 15k? Can anyone answer this? or should we just play with word definitions some more? EDIT: point taken, jnWake. Though the cost of all those combined still isn't $50. or even close to it.

Okay. Lets talk Kickstarter terms then. Games have been popular lately. What if a Game dev says "Hey guys, i need $75,000 to fund my game! I'll make copies to give out it's gonna be sweet! Only 1000 though!" And shows you the cost breakdown to get to $75,000 And then you read through and these guys only offer the game to you at donations of $200 Because I think that would be very strange.

It's understandable to be concerned since something has your name on it. But that doesn't mean OCR is the only way it works, because...... This is no different than what you guys do here, all the time. Except maybe you don't contact the original musicians? When someone is worried about it being "sold" they generally mean profit (kind of like the exta 35k from this KS?). There is a strange double speak where when talking about other albums, people snarkily say "under the guide of donations". But this is exactly what OCR does.. and then people say "it's not sales, it's donations!" There would be no profits had in what we were doing. none. period. The album was free online and the hard copies were just for fans who wanted it. Thats all. See the similarities? If she still had issue with it, then we would have dropped it, but she never said that. This is still clouding the issue. I legitimately would like to know why this album was "sold under the guise of donations on KS" at practically 5x the cost of making it. You call that drama bait, I call that a reasonable question. and ACTUALLY. thats my only real issue. Past hstories aside with VV AND Harmony of a Hunter, this is just impossible to explain as far as I can see.

Lets make this simple: the KS asked for 15k. But anyone who wants the album (which is what the KS is for) needs to give $50. 1000 copies x $50 = 50k Anyone "surprised" by meeting and going above the 15k either: 1. Is lying 2. Is awful at math. So which is it? Simple question. Why $50 per album? ---- OTHER ALBUMS: I was going to stay out of the VV topic, but Kyle, you cut everyone deep. And the project was under your name, so I expected better. If you truly believe that VV might have somehow ended up with large extra profits, and we wouldn't be able to "figure out" what to do with them since we aren't OCR, then that says more about you than it does everyone else. The only reason we weren't sure of the cost is because we generously offered shipping as part of the deal. Thats it. It's an unknown, and it is an unknown here, too. The "transparency" argument is laughable. If anyone ever took issue, i'd happily show them actual receipts and break down every single cost you want. Will that happen here? After this is over, is OCR going to publish a doc detailing every single last one of their costs? I seriously doubt it. Seems to me the only answer we get is "hey we're OCR! trust us!". I would have thought, for someone supposedly running their own label (KNGI) you've have more faith in people than that. but oh well. Otakatt and anyone else: "i haven't heard of it therefore it doesn't matter". Classy. Moving anything other than "yay OCR!" posts to a totally different thread? Extra classy.

Thanks for asking us instead of just writing slanderous remarks on an open forum. Oh wait... Here is Harmony: It was a double album because, yeah, that was the album. Was it pricey? Yes. Was there any way around that, to do it properly? No. That album was printed for $10 a copy because people got uppity about there being profit possibility, so I purposely priced it very low, so people wouldn't even consider the idea. In the end, it was about a $200 loss out of my own pocket. Because despite the fact it was taken by donations, that went to my paypal and my bank account, and I handled all the orders. I took the loss knowingly, because I just wanted to make it happen. Because I cared about the project that much. I wasn't sure how much of a loss it would be, but i expected around 100-200 bucks. And that isn't "were going to" by the way. We did it. Shipped them all out too. You're welcome. As for my posters? First, it's $40, not $60, thanks. Those prints are my own artwork that i decided to make as special things for people who might want them. They each cost $30 to make, and then shipping costs leaves me maybe at best, $5 each. Hardly much profit there, and certainly not enough to make up my losses for Harmony. But thats not what I made them for, I made them as special things. But even still, I am within my rights to do whatever I want with them. It's my store. Not Harmony's store. As for Vampire Variations: You're on the project, so you should be very well aware of everything. This discussion has been going on for months, and every single time someone says "profit?" I and others are right there to shut it down. It was brought up on the shizz, it was brought up on kngi's forums, this is not a new discussion out of nowhere. You could have helped out here and told people this, but instead you decided to throw us all under the bus and pretend we simply did this out of nowhere, with some secret personal agenda about making profit. And doubly so with us "knuckleheads" on Harmony. I am sorry for any confusion about this to anyone else, But I would really like everyone to take the above story, to heart. People tend to flip out over the idea of profit, and it always seems to revolve around the idea that people are trying to steal work, rip people off, etc. Instead of assuming "OMG! HOW DARE THEY!?" Which I have read a number of times, I would really like people to think more along the lines of "hmm, maybe they just don't know? I should mention it to them". Because we're all fans here, guys. A huge community of people who dedicate countless hours of our own lives to things that are either free, or certainly not enough to make a living off of. I would challenge someone to find me a person or group who fits the stigma of trying to steal work from people and make profit. Albums have been created that do make profits, but that number is so small compared to what it is often portrayed like. And even those people making a profit, are fans doing it for the love. No one gets rich doing this. Even Powerglove, the most commercially successful VG act out there, is not rich from doing it. Rather than assuming the worst, I'd really like people to lean towards the best. And then, maybe just work out some legal details from there. As for the album itself- away from rant mode.. It is an incredible collection and I really hope everyone enjoys it. It's been an honor to be a part of it, and for the art side.. myself and my friends worked incredibly hard to do the best job we could. We ARE selling posters of those too, but thats my end, my store. And I'm doing it to support my friends- more than myself, because they deserve it. This whole posters idea came from Harmony, but I really like it, makes the albums even more special. Thanks to everyone who made the album happen, and everyone else for the support. Even if hard copies don't happen, it's been an incredible project, worthy of any CV fan. Thanks. And sorry for the rant.