Tensei Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) Ok sure you go walking around trying to get kills on people who flash away all day and I'll just go farm and we'll see who does better. The only champion archetype this doesn't apply to are Junglers and Supports. If you're playing any other Champion, well, hope you like PvE! Edited August 17, 2011 by Tensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Derrit Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ok sure you go walking around trying to get kills on people who flash away all day and I'll just go farm and we'll see who does better. The only champion archetype this doesn't apply to are Junglers and Supports. If you're playing any other Champion, well, hope you like PvE! ..... get flash and flash when they do how hard could that possibly be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BardicKnowledge Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Derrit: It's just raw math, ganking is more viable in HoN than LoL, period. Also, because in LoL you can't deny, it is not difficult to get every single creep kill in your lane. The pros do it all the time in LoL games right next to each other because attacking _at all_ in LoL is a giant waste of time until you can force teamfights and kills midgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) And suddenly you're behind their creep waves and in tower range. Yup. I have actually played both games, and the HoN playing style where the solo mid is expected to control the game through ganks simply doesn't work in LoL. Solo mid in LoL is considered a lane for AP carries where they can farm up quickly through CS. Edited August 17, 2011 by Tensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 i'm with tensai on this one, even though he hates me =(((((( farming is a way more effective way of making cash before level 12 in LoL than ganking is, unless you play a 1v1 god like tryn AND you jungle AND they're aggressive. after that, it's just a big ratball anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Dude I don't hate you. I've just been bored with LoL lately so I'm not exactly enthousiastic even when we're winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Dude I don't hate you. I've just been bored with LoL lately so I'm not exactly enthousiastic even when we're winning. WHY DO YOU HATE ME TENSEI qwer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capa Langley Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 From watching the stream, I know I am preferring HoN's spectator UI much more than this. It's so much more informative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 HoN has been out for a year, and their current spectator UI is only a few weeks old. This game isn't even in beta yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I still can't get over how awesome Tidehunter's fish physics is, haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) Some of the models really are wonderful. I like how they all have a seperate animation for getting stunned as well. The only hero rework that really doesn't do it for me is Earthshaker, they should at least scale his model up a bit. Blue Mexican Stormspirit is awesome though. Edited August 18, 2011 by Tensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) Prancing Enchantress is really distracting. Guhhh, I want to play this game NOOOOWWWWW. Edited August 18, 2011 by Dhsu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Let's not pretend we didn't see this coming: http://i.imgur.com/UHSbb.jpg http://i.imgur.com/gxEUk.jpg http://i.imgur.com/0MdAz.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Damn it Valve just shut up and take my m- http://gamescom.gamespot.com/story/6329902/dota2-full-launch-delayed-to-2012-beta-soon/?tag=topstory%3Btitle FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I just hope the 400 games I have on Steam will increase my chances of getting in on the invite-only beta, as well as the fact that I signed up almost as soon as it became possible to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) Wondering if I should start logging hours in Crasher... Edit: Smoke of Deceit is OP. Edited August 19, 2011 by Dhsu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) The first Best of 3 game is pretty damn entertaining. First game was a complete stomp in favor of Na'Vi (22 min concede), but Scythe is looking pretty good in this second game so far. Also, keep in mind that Smoke of Deceit dispells within 1k range of a hero or tower, so its main function is for quick movement across the map and to avoid wards. Edited August 20, 2011 by Tensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Oh I didn't realize getting close to heroes revealed you as well. I guess that's not so bad then. So who's gonna start playing DotA All-Stars to get ready? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) MOTHERFUCKER. The ONE game I couldn't watch live (the finals) and Na'Vi picks Pudge. He looks like a fucking zombie sumo wrestler and I'm going to play the shit out of him when the game finally comes out. Also, Doombringer farming up Radiance, Vanguard and Phaseboots before 20 minutes pretty much puts the entire HoN competitive scene to shame. Edited August 21, 2011 by Tensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemophiliac Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) there's your video tensei, you do also realize that Lucifer has a farming ability right? edit: he had appx 100 cs in 15 mins. Edited August 22, 2011 by Hemophiliac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) goddamn denying So, I did some number crunching on Denying in HoN vs. XP bonuses in LoL. Fortunately, experience gain from creeps in both games is roughly the same (60 for melee, 40 for ranged). In a game of HoN, 10 denies is about the average per hero during the laning phase (i.e. the phase where denying directly affects your enemies XP gain). 10 creeps in HoN are worth ~500 XP. Denying 10 creeps reduces your enemies XP gain to 33% of 500 if they're ranged heroes, and 66% of 500 if they're melee. This means that the difference in XP will be 333.33 XP or 166.66 XP respectively, and that's if your opponent doesn't deny at all. In LoL, the laning phase lasts about 20 minutes. Minion waves (containing 6 minions) start spawning at 1:30 and will continue to spawn every 30 seconds after that, so 37 x 6 = 222 Minions will spawn in 20 minutes. Let's adjust that downwards to 150 minions to accomodate for dying/getting zoned/being out of lane, so you'll be getting the experience from 150 Minion deaths in 20 minutes. An average of 50 experience per minion means that you'll get about 7500 xp during that time. 5% of 7500 is 375. That is the XP advantage you will have over your opponent by speccing Awareness in the utility mastery tree. This actually means that speccing Awareness in LoL is about as useful as denying in HoN (not very), and gets completely negated if you actually deny/spec Awareness as well. This is all calculated for a solo lane, so if you're in a dual lane the difference become even less noticeable because everything gets halved. Considering all of this, hating on denying seems pretty pedantic. As for 5 second stuns. In this thread Zileas, the champion designer for LoL, talks about the concept of anti-fun, and how taking away control from your opponent might be fun for you, but isn't fun for them. However, according to him, giving them the opportunity to do a clutch dodge on a skillshot Dark Binding suddenly makes it fun for them too. And I agree with that. And HoNs/DotAs game design seems to be in line with that, because the longer the CC duration on a skill is, the more caveats it will have, to the point that even the Chronos ult you mentioned can be dodged. Edited August 23, 2011 by Tensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 mathConsidering all of this, hating on denying seems pretty pedantic. How well a mechanic works has nothing to do with whether or not the mechanic is dumb bullshit. The only justification for denying is that removing it makes the laning phase boring - but from a design perspective, that doesn't justify denying so much as it makes it clear how mechanically broken the concept of the 'laning phase' actually is. I'm excited for Dominion in LoL for that very reason. As for 5 second stuns. In this thread Zileas, the champion designer for LoL, talks about the concept of anti-fun, and how taking away control from your opponent might be fun for you, but isn't fun for them. However, according to him, giving them the opportunity to do a clutch dodge on a skillshot Dark Binding suddenly makes it fun for them too. And I agree with that. And HoNs/DotAs game design seems to be in line with that, because the longer the CC duration on a skill is, the more caveats it will have, to the point that even the Chronos ult you mentioned can be dodged. I think that an oft looked idea, when it comes to design of individual characters in games and the balance of those characters, is how easy it is to do something. I agree that something like Dark Binding is not so bad because it's actually a toss-up as to whether or not it will hit - but then there's also Ashe's arrow, which moves too quickly to be dodged at a certain distance. Or Taric/Sion/Annie/Twisted Fate/Ryze/Fiddlesticks' homing/instant disables, where they require no skill whatsoever and are incredibly zoning tools. Those don't require any real skill besides activating the skill and watching the game do the work for you. Those are the kind that aren't really fun. And there's also the whole thing about just how long they last. Chronos' ult is, like you said, avoidable, but my problem with it was more how it disables you for five seconds. Admittedly, I played HoN when I was really inexperienced with DotA and most of my experience now comes from LoL, but not only is a five second disable five seconds where a player just can't play the game, but it also seems like plenty of time to pretty much destroy anyone that isn't a tank. And since neither LoL nor HoN[?] (or, presumably, DotA2) has diminishing returns on disables, the meta-game will almost always revolve entirely around how disable-heavy your team composition is - and will, therefore, gravitate to the characters with the easiest disables to land. And as long as the entire underlying structure of the game revolves around easy abilities that disable your opponents for increasingly irritating amounts of time, it's going to be really unintuitive and unenjoyable for a lot of players, and really hard to get into for new players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 How well a mechanic works has nothing to do with whether or not the mechanic is dumb bullshit. The only justification for denying is that removing it makes the laning phase boring - but from a design perspective, that doesn't justify denying so much as it makes it clear how mechanically broken the concept of the 'laning phase' actually is.I'm excited for Dominion in LoL for that very reason. http://www.bloodlinechampions.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Bloodline Champions is actually a great game and I'm curious to see what it'll be like when it gets out of beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Also http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/566 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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