Saga Frontier 2 - Thema Remix

[bluelighter]

Arrangement from SF2
Music Masashi HAMAUZU

ORIGINALS:

Thema:

Missgestalt:

REMIX:

http://soundcloud.com/bluelighter0085/wave-of-blood-in-paradise

Edited July 11, 2015 by bluelighter

[avaris]

The intro piano is really quiet and lacks a good stereo image. The composition and notes of it sounds really good.

You have a pretty good groove going here. The mixing of individual elements is a bit off. Here is a basic tutorial on levels and panning:

http://www.propellerheads.se/substance/record-u/index.cfm?fuseaction=get_article&article=part4

The synth guitar sound absolutely has to go. It just feels terrible exposed. As an alternative try a distorted synth instead. Can give a similar feel but will sound better.

The orchestral writing and basic ideas are good. But it needs more dynamics and punch. For an example listen to how the dynamics add to the song: (the dynamics probably don't have to be this crazy, but an improvement here would go a long way)

http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR01601/

The composition and arrangement of this track are really good. The production just needs a major boost to help show off your awesome writing!

[bluelighter]

Thanks for your link! It’s really kind of information that I needed

I agree about the guitar: too loud, sound not enough realistic. I was looking for a guitarist, but I’m not sure it’s really necessary on this. My mix emphasizes the orchestral side before the metal side. Maybe with your advice I can rework guitar by software and get a good result.

Sorry for my late response; I was on other project and I’ve just seen your response.

Thanks for your feedback !

[avaris]

No worries dude. Got an update link?

[bluelighter]

Hi!

Here is the last version of my mix.

http://www.reverbnation.com/bluelighter

Saga Frontier 2: Main Theme Remix

It regroups several influences like piano, exotic, symphonic, rhythm of metal and some electronic elements.

I think it is globally ready except for the volume that, after normalization, I feel too weak. Is the volume tolerable for an extern ear? Else, is there good way to correct it? I saw on the forum notion of EQ. Is it possible to work on it on the whole finished piece? Or was it better to work on it gradually? I’m afraid I have to restart all my works on this piece.

I have this problem on all my musical projects. Any advice would be welcome

Thank for your responses!

Edited August 12, 2013 by bluelighter

[avaris]

The panning is much more balanced now. The track sounds very "narrow" now. Sounds need to be panned to give the track space. Everything in general sounds very quiet. The kick is too loud in comparison to the other sounds.

BTW rapid fire kick drums getting boring quick, and are not a good way to amp up energy levels. There are so many other techniques that are more effective. There is a reason that rapid fire kick drums are only prevalent in 1 genre.

If you don't feel comfortable with the EQ process go on youtube and start watching videos and practice. A lot of the composition ideas are good, but this won't stand a chance of passing from a production stand point.

Here some good channels:

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz1lYY5jH-D82MQs3llqnXA

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjRzsiP_aDWWLHV4-2LKBtg

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9gOpnb8_h0VSI6vjSLucg

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkoNHjrpzrXgriEDMxeLMdg

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAAvYB_eDXpbVYOLOZCdTLw

More advanced:

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCno8mYpnGhTA9COSW9sP8gQ

[bluelighter]

Thank's for your feedback!

I hope finding good information in your links

I don't understand what you mean by the rapid kick drum. The arrangement is thought like this. If I change this rythm, the mix lose of is meaning. And I've yet reduced the bass drum a lot. This mix need a minimum of rhythm

I agree that with kick + synth + bass together, it may be too loud.

I'll try to work on EQ on panning on each group of instru. Separatly, it amount to restart at the begining... I'll see what is possible

I'll do my best to get a better version

[avaris]

Rapid Kick Drum would be a Kick Drum playing multiple 32nd notes in a row. Or 64th notes.

[bluelighter]

Really thank's for your advice!

I've apply some effects of balance, trying to respect position of orchestra, and of EQ. I've also reduce a lot the drum.

I find now the sound cleaner (maybe not enough) and I've could win some DB.

Here is the version V3: http://www.reverbnation.com/bluelighter

Some points to review?

Edited August 15, 2013 by bluelighter

[avaris]

Not bad man. The individual sounds are better balanced. Awesome job!

The mix won't get by the panel due to sample quality. The mix is also quiet. It could use a bit more stereo width. These are a little things that take time and practice to get better at. Maybe try to work on some new songs and concentrate on those areas.

[bluelighter]

Thanks for your encouragement

What do you mean on sample quality? Is it about orchestra sounds, synthe, drum? All sounds are made by FL. (the first version was made my Finale; and sounds was less clean).

If your remark is on synthe, I can choose some better sounds. the last retouch I can do on this mix. But I won't rework on orchestra sound that I find readdy.

I've also another mix in waiting. But I've spent a lot of time on this project started two years ago, and I'd really like see it end in...

[avaris]

The piano is okay. It's really all of the samples and synth to be honest. The overall production quality just isn't there yet. Maybe if the mixing and mastering was better the song would sound better. Take a listen to some OA's tracks. if you feel your productions is close to his then submit.

[bluelighter]

Maybe the mix need more reverb. I try this week to correct this. It's the best I can do on it

[bluelighter]

Here is the final version V4 : http://www.reverbnation.com/bluelighter

Without changing sample, I've applied more reverb. I think it was the problem.

Now this mix is readdy for me

[avaris]

Does sound much better, good luck!

[bluelighter]

I've posted it on OCR. Thanks for your help

[bluelighter]

Hi!

After all, I’ve acquired new samples for orchestra and drum parts. I’ve also changed the bass. I've some doubt about the last one, but I think it's better than when I use a synthe for bass.

I’ve replace my OCR post by this new version when it will be ready.

Any feedbacks?

Link : http://www.reverbnation.com/bluelighter

Edited December 1, 2013 by bluelighter

[bluelighter]

Here is the really last version:

http://www.reverbnation.com/bluelighter

Enjoy;)

[MindWanderer]

Harpsichord sample in the intro is still pretty poor, and very mechanically sequenced. You'll need some humanization there.

The kick is a bit overwhelming from 0:30 to 0:54.

Balance in 0:54-1:47 is drowning your melody, all I hear is accompaniment. Panning helps but is no substitute for equalization.

1:47 to 3:40 really has too much kick--too loud and too much of it. The samples still aren't good here: the strings and piccolo still sound really fake and mechanical. And that snare is awful, it sounds like someone slapping a wet towel on the ground.

Transitions are also a problem. There's a slowdown and climax at the end of each section, but then the next one starts straight in at full strength. That works OK for intro->main, but not so well more than once, and all your transitions are like that. Build tension and release with either a fast climax and continued high energy, or with a slowing climax followed by a soft, slow section. You almost do this with the outtro, but even the piano is too energetic, and there's no continuity. Played softly, with some residual elements from the earlier section, would work better.

[timaeus222]

The acoustic piano in the intro is definitely mechanical. Maybe this will help with the distinction between mechanical and not.

I agree with MindWanderer that the kick at 0:30 is overpowering. There's a disconnect between the power of the kick and the atmosphere implied by all of the other instruments. This is probably caused by too much mids and by the tail on the kick. It's also too loud in general.

There may be minor clipping at 0:56 from the snare. Dunno if it's just YouTube. 0:57 has loads of muddiness. You need to refine the EQ on the low mids and treble, bring down the resonance on the piercing arp, and clear up stereo space for the lead. The strings have too much reverb in the low end, too. It's really cluttered there, especially in the 200~1000Hz range.

1:29 shows how loud the kick really is. It's clearly the loudest thing there. It can be that loud if EQed carefully, but the other instruments would have to come up too, and you would have to be meticulously watching the dynamics there to not clip and not overcompress the track.

1:48 to 3:33 is way too loud all across the board. There's definitely clipping and overcompression, and everything is just fighting for attention. Figure out what you want in front, what you want as accompaniment, and take out what you should not need. You don't need the drums blasting and being the center of attention, and you don't necessarily need the strings on full power either. You can have loudness and

, but this isn't it (that track is slightly muddy in the louder parts, but not overly loud). The later parts of this section are quite grating.

And of course, 3:40 suffers from the same problem with the mechanical piano as in the intro, just so you know.

Overall, the dynamics are pretty flat. You start out medium, go up to medium loud, and then coast at loud for about 50% of the track before terracing down to medium. Ensuring that your dynamic curve gives you headroom to go higher makes for a more complete and nuanced arrangement. With how the production is here, it's enough to make it a priority to fix the production first and the arrangement second. If you can't hear the arrangement for more than a minute without stopping the track for a grating feel, the arrangement can be fixed however you want and it wouldn't make as much of a difference as fixing the production enough to make it more listenable. Even lowering the gain on the Master by 8dB or so could make it easier to critique.

I didn't want to say all these negative things, but that's what I'm hearing man. If you aren't sure whether you want to add more elements or take something out, just take everything out except the lead, bass, and drums, and pick and choose which elements you want to keep most for the midrange. Keep trying.

Edited December 22, 2013 by timaeus222

[bluelighter]

Thanks for your constructive comments and your advice But as I said, this arrangement is ready for me. I worked really hard to get this version and I can’t continue on this mix at vitam aeternam. At this point, I won’t change my arrangement by modifying instrumentation. Delete some instruments to lighten this one is not conceivable for me.

There are not too much of kick in 2nd section. It’s just a particular style; but I’m conscious people not familiarized with won’t adhere to this one. Rhythm of metal with double pedal and some electronic elements added… The kick was also really reduced since the last version. Still reduced, we lose the spirit of the arrangement. I don’t understand why double pedal would be accepted only if there are guitar, bass and saturated voice with this, to get a metal style like we are habituated to. I found it interesting to combine these different styles and get a different result.

I recognize that, due to its complexity, this arrangement was maybe too difficult to mix with my current knowledge in production. It’s today the best I can do on this.

Thanks for you listen!

[timaeus222]

There are not too much of kick in 2nd section. It’s just a particular style; but I’m conscious people not familiarized with won’t adhere to this one. Rhythm of metal with double pedal and some electronic elements added… The kick was also really reduced since the last version. Still reduced, we lose the spirit of the arrangement. I don’t understand why double pedal would be accepted only if there are guitar, bass and saturated voice with this, to get a metal style like we are habituated to. I found it interesting to combine these different styles and get a different result.

I never said a thing about guitars or bass. Where did you get that idea?

It's not the sequencing of the kick that is the main problem (I didn't even mention that). The timbre of it covers too much midrange and the volume of it is so high that it steps on top of the other instruments rather than setting a solid bass foundation. "Blasting" just means playing often and loudly. It doesn't mean anything specifically related to double pedal kicks. I was referring to the drums overall. You could have done a dance track with that kick and I would have said the same thing.

Try not to "fall in love" with your track so much that you don't want to change anything. Being in the workshop forums is about being open-minded and being willing to try the feedback that is given if you really feel it applies. If more than one person says the same thing, it's probably not being imagined.

Edited December 24, 2013 by timaeus222

[bluelighter]

Thanks for your comment! After new listening, I recognize bass drum is a little too loud. I'll correct it before post the mix. I note your advice and will apply these in other projects easier

[bluelighter]

Hey,

I've made a new version with now collaboration of Tuberz McGee for guitars and XPRTNovice for flute and clarinet.

EDIT LINK: www.reverbnation.com/bluelighter

 

I think I've now understood precedent feedbacks about drums. I've a lot reduced drum to better emphasize orchestra part and melody. I've also replaced piano of intro and outro by a synthe to homogenize with other electric sounds of the arrangement.

 

The result is now really nearer like I wanted, notably thanks to instrumentists participation.

 

Any points to correct on this version?

[timaeus222]

Hearing this fresh since two years ago, I like how the intro sounds. Could be a bit more varied in the velocities, but it's not a big deal.

 

When the guitars do come in at 0:34 though, it feels jarring to me due to the panning. The guitars are dead-center and stepping on the flute, and the kick feels odd thumping without EQ presence. At 0:58, you have some sort of pad coming in, perhaps a choir, and I can't really hear its contribution; it sounds more like added muddiness IMO. Furthermore, Tuberz's lead guitar is too far back in the mix to hear, and it sounds like he's supposed to be more clearly heard. Did you try high passing the choir near 200 Hz and lowering the reverb on it?

 

At 1:50, the muddiness has increased further; the kick and toms just... T_T yeah, they just decrease the clarity even more. I'm going to echo what I said two years ago: take out the instruments you don't need, and only leave in the ones that are absolutely necessary for the sound you want. This arrangement is pretty ambitious, and for what you're going for, the production isn't really doing the arrangement justice. I still hear that resonant arp being too prominent on the resonance as well. Also, a small thing at 3:38, but the fade goes down to too quiet a volume that the intro-style keys coming back in sounds like a new song. To me it sounded like the song ended, and then it started again.

 

So overall, really consider what instruments you do need, and which ones just don't add anything to the soundscape but mud or clutter. I often see this as a prominent issue in ReMixes, where there are too many layers for what one wants to accomplish, while neither I nor the ReMixer know just how many layers there are without seeing the project file itself. Check that, and check how much reverb you have on the choir, and whether it's high passed enough to leave room for the bass. Furthermore, please try rethinking how you place the instruments in the stereo field; the guitars should not overpower the flute, so I would recommend having the rhythm guitars wider and the lead guitar a bit panned left or right, with the flute either center with respect to the rhythm guitars, or on the opposite side of the lead guitar. Lastly, consider having 3:38 not fade out so much before the intro comes back in.

 

Hope that helps!