Sonic the Hedgehog 3 'Secerts Hidden in the Deep' (Hydrocity Zone/IceCap Zone)

[Sengin]

So I was in the shower late one Thursday night and decided that I really wanted to make a remix of Hydrocity Zone and Ice Cap. I used Finale to come up with the basic arrangement and used Reason to actually create the remix. It really sucks 3.0 can't support tempo changes (can't wait 'till 4). Ah well, I've come up with a way around that. Anyway, I wanted to post here so that I can get comments and critiques. I have come further along with the arrangement as of now, so I have the midi posted as well (it's not finished yet though). Keep in mind that for the remix, no EQ has been applied yet (because I have 3 (right now) Reason files (one for each tempo change so far and the speed up), I can't apply the EQ until the end, after they've been pasted together in Audacity). Also, drums haven't been finished yet either, also I will be adding background things later, and my experience in Reason is still young. So I'm looking for tips and critiques galore :wink:. Don't be easy, let me know what you think.

You can get both the midi (arrangement) and the mp3 (what I've done of the remix so far) here:

http://public.box.net/senjin3172429

Thanks.

Edit: newest version (6): http://www.box.net/shared/7p1s1cfsws

[Nutritious]

Well, first of all I want to say, you've picked a really tough song to remix (Ice Cap). Not because of technical difficulty, but simply because it's been covered so many times it's difficult to come up with an original take on it. That said, I'll try and give some tips on what you've got so far.

Overall, it sounds like you're going for a laid-back feeling take on the original. Right now, though, the piece is very sparse with a solo piano covering most of the material. I think this needs a lot of development with other instruments. Perhaps some backing pads, something else to cover some of the lower descending notes, more percussion, etc.

Starting out, you've got a piano layered with a bell and a simple synth string. Each are playing the same descending pattern very mechanically, then repeated a couple times with additional chords on the strings. I think it's really important at the beginning of your song to start with something that's going to capture the attention of the listener. Not trying to be mean, but this starts out very dull and basically follows very closely to the original. I'm not too crazy on the synth strings you're using, but I guess it depends on what feel you're going for.

Next comes a piano basically playing alone with the original almost verbatum, then repeated with a little more complexity, then repeated yet again with slightly more added. It's hard to help with something like this, but I'd say that you need to come up with an idea of how you want to interpret the song in an original way rather than just cover it with a few embellishments. How you decide to do that will really impact the direction of your song.

If you do continue to use a lot of piano, try adjusting the timing and velocities of the notes so it doesn't sound so rigid. Try and picture how someone performing the piano part would emphasize certain notes over others and wouldn't be playing every note exactly on time.

At this point, I think it would be helpful for you to listen to some other music from genre's that are similar to what you are trying to accomplish with this piece. Notice the instrumentation used as well as how the piece flows - not a melody line once, repeated several times adding a few more notes each time, but different instruments/synths playing different parts and dynamic (loudness) changes. Sorry for the long post, but I hope this helps you develop your music further.

[Sengin]

Yeah, I know I picked a difficult song, but unfortunately I didn't really have a choice (you know the whole mind thing making you do it...). I'm hoping one thing going FOR me would be that it's not just Ice Cap, but Hydrocity also.

Right now I know it's sparse, I haven't had the opportunity to add anything else, I just wanted to get the main arrangement into Reason and deal with the tempo change stuff before I went on with everything else. I mainly wanted critique on the arrangement and instrument choices right now because I haven't done anything else yet, as well as change velocities and timings (I play piano myself, and know about velocities and interpretations with that and minute timing adjustments).

I personally thought the intro captured the listener into a relaxed setting, but it could just be bias because it was my idea. I do however have an idea for a different intro. And the thought the slowly gaining complexity part fit well into the relaxed theme I was going for, but I guess it could be TOO slow.

Did you get a chance to listen to the other part of the arragement rather than just the .mp3? And thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate another view on my own piece, especially a contructive one.

[Sengin]

I have finally had some time to work on my mix, and here's WIP2. It has a new intro and background things going on rather than just piano. I will still be adding some more background in some places, but I wanted to at least upload WIP2 beforehand.

You can see WIP2 here: http://www.box.net/shared/a2760skcjt

So what's good, what's bad?

[gliyw1thdabangs]

From the beginning of the song to :21, you need to work on the balance of the soundscape in WIP2. Also, I could see where you were going with the intro, but the choice of synths is very MIDI-ish in my opinion.
Change the synth used for the hydrocity section. It's also very generic. And mess with the percussion on the hydrocity section when you get to it, it's still the same as the source.

After 6 listens, I'll give you a few short things i would do with the ARRANGEMENT.

If you're not going to bring in a melody from 0:20 to 0:48, cut out that part of the arrangement.

Cut out 0:49-1:07.

I think it would do your listeners some good too if you took out two measures of the song between 1:08 and 1:46.

I think you'll be able to extend the potential of 1:46-2:08. It is very full when you first hear it but upon 3-4 listens, my ear begins to hear the repetition of the basic progression. If you want to rearrange the hydrocity melody and qualify it to the ice cap chord progression, arrangement-wise, you'd be going far. It's something that I really liked about DJP's ice cap hurts (although he didn't rearrange the melody at all, the basic idea of melody over chord progression is still present).

Since you haven't changed anything from the hydrocity source, I won't comment on it.

If I were attacking this source, I wouldn't separate hydrocity/ice cap themes so much. It sounds like a 2 song medley with the separation at 2:08. If you're going to keep them totally separate, at the very least, have a hand off transition where there is transfer of the the ice cap melodies momentum into the hydrocity melody.


This is coming from someone who is a fan of Finale Songwriter and Audacity, even though my remixing capabilities are craptastic. Good luck. I think you'll do fine if you can get some help with production. It seems like you're arrangement will be on its way.

[Sengin]

You can see more of the arrangement by listening to the midi I have linked in my first post (it goes further than what I've done in Reason at this point, even though it's still not complete).

It's odd that you say the percussion is the same as the source for Hydrocity because I haven't taken anything from a midi or even listened to the percussion, I just found some things I liked and used it (it's not exactly done yet though, I just wanted a basic part on there so I have reference points because you can't do tempo changes in Reason yet, especially speed ups).

Thanks for the reply.

[gliyw1thdabangs]

Are you going to work more on the rearrangement in the MIDI? If you are then let me know when you repost it. I like looking and playing around with notes in finale.

if not I'll check out the midi.

[Sengin]

Yeah, I will be. I used Finale for my arrangements, then take that into Reason. I'll let you know when I repost. I was suffering from a lack of creativity, so I decided to work on the remix part in Reason for a while until I can get some more ideas.

[Sengin]

http://www.box.net/shared/9ngs279ame

Finally, after some time, a new WIP. A few things have changed, mainly it being more Hydrocity-centered and less Ice Cap. Which is good. I've also added some bits and changed some stuff so hopefully it's less repetitive. There's still a few things I need to change (like some sort of bass instrument in the first section), but for the most part, the bulk of the work from now on will be based on developing what I have that comes after where the song currently ends, and adding an ending. Any critique is quite welcomed.

[prophetik]

i'll take a look at this later tonight or sometime this weekend.

[Sengin]

Thanks, I'd appreciate it. It's great to have input and critique from someone other than myself :)

[prophetik]

i'll take a look tonight, i PROMISE

[prophetik]

first thing i notice is that the seventh on the second chord isn't really very tuneful. it's on the sixth beat of the piece, and it doesn't sound great. as a matter of fact, there's a lot of notes in this that don't sound great - i think that they're supposed to be blue notes, but they don't fit the key pretty much ever. also, when you're using the chord a full step down from the root key, don't use a flat seventh. don't use a seventh at all, actually, a bVII chord doesn't sound good with a seventh. it's a flat 6 in the key, and it doesn't work. even a major seventh in that chord doesn't sound good. it's better as a triad.

there's some glitchy transitions in this that aren't great. i'd say to work on your transitions so that there's more there - right now it always winds up being a solo instrument after each transition.

there's some cool pad work going on all over this piece, and i like it. you get a good groove going on around 1:52 or so, and i think you should run with it. stick the piano a little bit farther in the back and bring in a bass instrument of some kind, and you'll really have something good going.

[Sengin]

Thanks for the review. I'm actually pretty happy with my pad work, though I wasn't sure it was going to turn out alright when I first started. And yeah, I'm working on the transitions (they used to be worse). I think I'm still going to keep the single-instrument transition at 2:11, because I think it's a nice break. But the others will get some work.

I was thinking of bringing the bass part of the piano out very slightly and pushing the flute slightly back, but I think I'll try a different bass instrument (if I can find one). Also, the seventh you are talking about, which instrument do you mean?

I should have some time to work on it today, and I've already started work on the next section. However, the transition is absolutely awful (but I just wanted to get to work on that section and worry about the transition later). It starts off with saxes, an alto and a tenor, playing a slightly altered section of Ice Cap in a different key signature (instead of C,C, bB, it's bE,bE, bD). And then one of the guys thinks it's boring, so he does something a little different. And then the other guy does the same, and then there's what's basically ice cap being "dueled" between two saxes for a short while. But, I have no volume work done, no panning, no nothing. Just some notes with an instrument (and I don't even know if the saxes sound ok). I have some exaggerated differences to remind myself of what I'd like to do (makes these notes a little louder, etc..), but nothing set in stone or even worked on. So it's like a WIP of the WIP.

Anyway, I appreciate the review and thoughts on it. I should hope to have a little more done later today and post it for early thoughts on it (perhaps I need better saxes to to expand things, etc..).

[prophetik]

post it and i'll take a listen.

btw, it's not bB, it's Bb. while it's written "flat-B" in notation, when you're writing the note it's "B-flat".

[Sengin]

Eh, technicalities :<.

Anyway, just keep in mind that it's still early. I also changed a little on the parts before it (but not too much, mostly the beginning part).

http://www.box.net/encoded/7692195/115828323/c3cfc03181b3cea35d800606cf9382d7

[Sengin]

Ok guys, got it finished (note-wise). Here it is:

http://www.box.net/shared/goowvjl0k0

Let me hear anything! I think I'm going to change the transition between Hydrocity act II to ice cap, and put the bass piano more in the background from 1:15 to 1:51.

[Sengin]

Ok, worked on it a bit more. Changed volumes and panning around between 1:15 and 1:51, also changed a instrument in the first Hydrocity Act 2 part, edited key velocities and note spacing at the end (to seem less synthesized), added a few notes here in the part before the beginning. I also added a couple notes in the transition between Hydrocity and Ice Cap, but the transition still isn't smooth (because they are 2 different Reason files because I started it before Reason 4 came out, so each tempo part had it's own file - yes, I did the speedup in Reason 3). I'm still trying to find a solution, I might have to add another measure in between or something.

Anyway, there's been some changes, would appreciate another listen!

http://www.box.net/shared/goowvjl0k0

[Sengin]

Fixed some more changes. Lowered the volume on the strings after the bluesy section, finally figured a way to make the transition easier (adjusting timimgs and tracks in audacity), panned the pads near the end, and edited some panning on the pianos. And a couple other small changes I can't remember at the moment.

http://www.box.net/shared/goowvjl0k0

Thanks for listening.

[DrumUltimA]

PRODUCTION
[#] Too quiet
[#] Low-quality samples
[#] Unrealistic sequencing
[#] Drums have no energy
[#] Mixing is muddy (eg. too many sounds in the same range)

PERFORMANCE (live recorded audio/MIDI parts)
[#] Wrong notes, general sloppiness

STRUCTURE
[#] Not enough changes in sounds (eg. static texture, not dynamic enough)
[#] Lacks coherence overall (no "flow")
[#] Pace too plodding

PERSONAL COMMENTS (positive feedback, specifics on checklist criticisms, any other thoughts)


Jeeeeeesus that's a lot of music. A lot of good stuff and a lot of stuff I'd like to see changed! Therefore, a lot of stuff for me to say.

Broad Criticisms: There are problems I have with both the arrangement and the production values. As far as production goes, this piece definitely suffers from midi-itis. Don't worry--I've been there ;) Overall every instrument falls in one frequency range. Use your equalizer to emphasis different frequencies on each instrument depending on what kind of sound you want it to have (bright, dark, etc). Your piano is in dire need of some velocity work--all of those runs sound way too robotic. Edit the velocities of the piano midi so that the phrases come through. Also, your samples are once again (surprise) on the midi side of things. A lot can be done to help crappy samples with eq, reverb, and careful midi sequencing. Also, try using compressors on individual instruments--especially your percussive instruments. Effective use of a compressor can really make a part groove.
As for the arrangement, because you go through so many styles and themes, it's coming off to be a bit schizophrenic and aimless. The individual pieces are really well done, but the organization of the package as a whole is sort of jumbled and disjunct. I would re approach the way you organize all these pieces, try to get a good rise and fall. Also, the way I approach composition in general is that "nothing appears only once"--so I would try alluding to the different styles that you go through in different sections. Also, throughout the whole mix, I noticed a DISTINCT lack of bass instrument--all we ever get is the kick drum and the piano, there are some parts of this mix that really suffer from lack of bass--your frequency spectrum isn't being evenly represented.

Anyway, let me take this through with timestamps, and make more specific comments:

Opening: sounds pretty cool, nice choice of sounds there. In terms of organizing your mix, I would start with something a little less dense here, like maybe the piano stuff that comes in next. The thing I don't like about this section is that it starts at a completely different tempo and feel than the next few sections, so it's not really setting the listener up for anything. At :22 I feel like the piano rambles on a bit with the embellishment. Jazz at :53 sounds good, but once again holds no continuity to the rest of the mix. That shaker sample needs some work.

What's going on with those panning strings at 1:20? They aren't following the chord progression of the piano at all--is this intentional? I'm not crazy about it. 1:55 I'm feeling the piano is rambling a bit too much... Also I should note that by this point we still have had no signifigant bass activity--the staticity of the texture makes for this to sound repetitive and plodding.

2:12--I don't agree with the suddenly extremely thin texture--at least have the piano doing something with the left hand!! Also, I'm not crazy about that shaker--it isn't grooving to me at all, you could do more with velocity. I LOVE the introduction of hydrocity zone though, but I wish you had more intricately woven this theme into the ice cap theme.

2:45 - once again a jarring transition but I'm glad you incorporated the original source accompaniment in the piano--it sounds really cool. Here's a part that I think really suffers from lack of bass-- you're getting some bass notes in the piano, and the kick drum is pretty low, but your soundscape isn't very even. I'd really like to hear this stuff kick more--through use of percussion and other instruments, more rhythmic accompaniment, etc. Get a better sax sample too!

3:34-modulation sounds pretty good--still would like a different instrument doing bass stuff. Those rhythmic figures need to be punchier, and that piano needs some velocity work (as well as a better sample, better eq, reverb, etc) to make those fast runs sound realistic.

Nice return to hydrocity at 4:00 but I'm still lacking in the bass department! Once again i appreciate the reference to hydrocity but I'd like to hear it more evenly intertwined throughout the rest of the mix.

4:48- finally some bass sounds, even if it is in the percussion! Do you hear how fresh that sounds compared to the rest of the mix! That's what I'm getting at. The rhythmic interplay here is cool but after a while it begins to ramble--also your percussion samples don't help with that--I'm not hearing enough variation in velocity as well as from sample to sample.

5:37- alright, I guess solo piano is fine but by this point I'm exhausted. Your mix is piano, piano, and more piano--maybe it's appropriate to end with piano then but I'd still like to hear more variation. I like the strings that come in, and the water drop at the end is BALLER.

So basically what I'm getting at is your mix doesn't have a clear direction, and it's meandering is a result of a thin texture, low production quality, organization of ideas, and a narrow frequency spectrum represented (i.e. no bass) All of this being said, interpretation skills are EXCELLENT. In this mix, I feel like you have 5 different mixes of ice cap that if were developed, could hold their own as ice cap remixes. You should've joined this project ;) (http://icecap.ocremix.org/) But a lot of the choices within each section of this mix were GREAT, and the fact that you've used finale to make what could be narrowed down to a theme and variations of ice cap zone for solo piano--it makes me wonder if you consider yourself a "composer" more than a "remixer" or "producer". I could totally see this being performed. Remember, when you're producing music, you can't rely on the listener thinking "oh, well that's what it would sound like if someone was playing it". You, in the end, ARE the performer.

This mix is long. It's huge, and it's JAM PACKED with musical ideas. You can keep going with it if you want, but I think it would be benificial to your "education" as an ocremixer is to take your favorite section of this arrangement and develop that. I wouldn't normally reccomend this, but this mix is a special exception. I hope you don't interpret this as "give up on your remix" because that's not what I mean at all. I just think you should change your approach a bit--isolate one musical idea you find to be really profound, and work with JUST that. Also, there's a good chance your remix would be over the 6MB mark anyway.

It's very impressive to see that one can pack so many different musical ideas into 6:30 though, and have them ALL be different. As a composer, out of all of my suggestions, I implore you to practice fleshing out all the different possibilities from one very narrow musical idea. If you've ever listened to Bach, you'll find that the genius in his fugues lies in the fact that he treats each and every one of them as a study to use that musical theme in every possible way. There's a lot to be said for doing this. Coherence, my friend. Good luck with remixing--you've got tons of talent. It's over 9000!!!!

[Sengin]

Wow....thanks for the exhaustive review :) And now for some comments:

First, I agree that the mix is lacking a bass instrument throughout...I've tried a couple synths in various sections and found nothing to fit, and gave up for while :?. Do you have any recommendations for a fit?

It's funny what you said about the sax sample, because both saxes (I've got soprano panned slightly to the right and alto panned slightly to the left) are the ONLY samples in the song that AREN'T from a free soundfont or the main reason banks (yep! I've got no cash at the moment). Again, do you have any recommendations for a sample? I've browsed around a lot and those were the best I could find.

About the intro (first 22 seconds): I've thought about excluding that for a while now. It originally wasn't going to be in (the part after it was slated for the intro) but I stumbled across an idea early on when looking for pads and put it in as the intro because I thought it sounded cool. Then I just kinda left it in, but I've been thinking about putting it towards a Rusty Ruin (genesis) or Chemical Plant remix.

My first task was to start by writing out the basic arrangement in Finale, and then bring the midi into Reason (but I got stuck after the sax hydrocity part for a long time and decided to start with reason with what I had). Next was to just get the various instruments and sounds out there with drums, sound effects, panning, and whatnot. That's really where I am now, and I was saving compression/EQ/etc.. for the very end and haven't really touched upon that yet. But I will :) With that hopefully will come better-sounding instruments and drums with more energy.

Which piano part(s) do you think need more velocity work? I've done a lot on velocities for the piano parts. I guess though the difference between velocity 100 and say 90 may not be as much as I think it is, leading to the feel of a synthesizer producing the music. Do you think there is enough of a change with velocities during the solo piano part at the end?

I would like to include more of hydrocity thoughout the whole song. That's actually what lead to the jazzy part at 0:53. A while ago, all I had was solo piano playing ice cap. It was pretty boring. But I was listening to hydrocity act 1 and slowed it down a bit, then got the idea. A little rearragement later, and it showed up. Another reason why there isn't so much of hydrocity in some parts is because at first this was just going to be a mix of ice cap. I got the idea for hydrocity as I was writing what would come after 2:10. I love hydrocity, and noticed it was in the same key as ice cap, and thought the transition would be nice and smooth. From there, everything started changing and I made the song more about hydrocity (which I think is a better song than ice cap) except for the off-key ice cap theme I have with the saxes. But ice cap lends itself better to interpretation because it has a very "predictable" rhythm. Hydrocity on the other hand rarely uses the same note durations for more than 2 or 3 notes and jumps around the different pitches. It's much harder to arrange hydrocity than ice cap and I think that's what led to the section from 3:34 to 3:53. From then on it's strictly hydrocity arrangement and interpretation (like mixing two parts of hydrocity 2 into one section between measures and half measures from 3:57 to 4:47). By then I realized I hadn't really done much reinterpretation of hydrocity, and tried to come up with a section to follow. It took a long time to find and a lot of ideas never ended up working. But eventually, after just sitting down at the piano and trying different things with it (I created sheet music for hydrocity for piano and learned the right hand, and I based each hydrocity section off of my transcription), I came up with 4:55 to the end. I would greatly like to put hydrocity in more places (did you catch the flute doing it at 3:42 and 3:47?) as well as put a little more jazz into some parts. Sometimes it just takes someone else to point something out that you know you need to do, but it hadn't hit exactly what that was. Know what I mean? In doing that, I know that I will have other ideas to add to other places to vary it up, which will change the flow and add direction. Right now I've got many different sections that are all different. I'd like to change it a bit to add a smaller climax to each section with a resolution to the next section, which will lead to a small climax and another resolution, constantly building until (what is right now) 5:30, which will be the climax of the whole song, and the resolution being the ending which I have.

I am also still working on 4:55 through 5:30 as it is the newest part of the song and haven't had as much time with it to fully develop it to what I want it to be (as of now it does get a little tiring to listen to, especially because there's not much bass after 5:15 - but I do love that bass piano going from 5:12 to 5:15!) and there isn't a whole lot of other types of sounds at the moment. It's also very difficult to find something that fits because from 4:55 to 5:32 it switches between 4/4 and 15/16, and then from 5:32 to 5:36 is 11/8 (and the next two measures are 7/4). Oh, and glad you like the water drop :). I use that as percussion in various places, but it never stands out as a water drop unless it's by itself.

About the composer question...I do, in a way. I've played piano for quite some time, but in a different way than most people. A lot of people seem to just want to play what's in front of them. I like to see what the piece is, and I'll likely learn it that way. But once I have it memorized (which is as soon as I get to the end - I memorize as I practice each section), I will play it differently than what's written because I think some parts are boring, or that I like it but want to play it a bit differently. Take Path of Repentence from FFX. It's a nice song. But it's also a massive run of 8th notes. But who says I have to play it that way? Triplets are nice, as is interweaving the left and right hands. Listen to this to see what I mean: http://www.box.net/shared/shunyb08w0 . Another thing I like to do is to change the overall groove. Here I've got the version written (I think it's Turkish March by Martha Mier), and then I play it again in a way that I interpret it: http://www.box.net/shared/332pga9kwo . All that got me thinking about doing the same thing to ice cap, and that's where I started this song from, doing what I do normally with piano songs, but adding it to other instruments, drums, etc. And yes, Secrets Hidden in the Deep is my first attempt at an actual remix (doing something other than sitting at a piano and playing with a song). I love the sound of piano, and that's why this has so much piano in it, but I do think I need to shift focus in a couple of spots so listeners won't get tired hearing it.

When I get through mixing it up, adding compression and other production-like effects, change focus from piano at some points, adding a bass intrument(s), and re-work the flow towards smaller climaxes and resolutions, it should change the overall direction and flow of the song as a whole. While doing that, I expect the length to change, but I highly doubt it will get longer (I also think it's a little long in the first place, but removing the current intro will help, and tempos and other various things in some cases will change as I change the flow of the section).

Phew...thanks again for your review! It helps to get someone else's opinion to solidify ideas you have but aren't sure how to implement and to be introduced with new ideas. Another set of ears always helps.

[DrumUltimA]

Wow....thanks for the exhaustive review :) And now for some comments:

First, I agree that the mix is lacking a bass instrument throughout...I've tried a couple synths in various sections and found nothing to fit, and gave up for while :?. Do you have any recommendations for a fit?

Well, a lot of that depends on what's happening in the mix! Sometimes a plain old electric bass works really well, I'm particularly fond of the sound of a fretless. Having a nice long orchestral double bass can sound good for the more lush sections, and I often find a lot of versatility in electric settings with a simple sine wave :) Be creative!


It's funny what you said about the sax sample, because both saxes (I've got soprano panned slightly to the right and alto panned slightly to the left) are the ONLY samples in the song that AREN'T from a free soundfont or the main reason banks (yep! I've got no cash at the moment). Again, do you have any recommendations for a sample? I've browsed around a lot and those were the best I could find.
As someone who's never spent a nickel on soundfonts, I find often that good mixing can really help make a sample sound more realistic. If you spent money on them, I hope they are good. Part of the problem was that they were so soft, I could hardly hear them, the other part is that they seemed to have no reverb and had no definable equalization. Perhaps maybe even more velocity work on those could help. Saxophones are VERY difficult to emulate, however. Do some messing around with equalization and balance on those, perhaps that'll help.

About the intro (first 22 seconds): I've thought about excluding that for a while now. It originally wasn't going to be in (the part after it was slated for the intro) but I stumbled across an idea early on when looking for pads and put it in as the intro because I thought it sounded cool. Then I just kinda left it in, but I've been thinking about putting it towards a Rusty Ruin (genesis) or Chemical Plant remix.
The intro has some of the strongest instrumentation in the entire mix, for sure. Use it as an example for building the rest of the mix perhaps?


My first task was to start by writing out the basic arrangement in Finale, and then bring the midi into Reason (but I got stuck after the sax hydrocity part for a long time and decided to start with reason with what I had). Next was to just get the various instruments and sounds out there with drums, sound effects, panning, and whatnot. That's really where I am now, and I was saving compression/EQ/etc.. for the very end and haven't really touched upon that yet. But I will :) With that hopefully will come better-sounding instruments and drums with more energy.
I understand, sometimes I take that approach too. Although I find that I have a tendency to not want to deal with mixing by the end of writing the arrangement, and I often have greater success working with it as I go. But whatever works for you :)


Which piano part(s) do you think need more velocity work? I've done a lot on velocities for the piano parts. I guess though the difference between velocity 100 and say 90 may not be as much as I think it is, leading to the feel of a synthesizer producing the music. Do you think there is enough of a change with velocities during the solo piano part at the end?
Yeah, the difference between 100 and 90 is actually pretty slim. I go all over the place with velocity. It's most noticeable in the fast parts--the glissandi and such, it sounds like each note is being hammered out at equal volume which most of the time isn't the case ;). I think I remember the end sounding pretty good. But you can definitely be more extreme.


I would like to include more of hydrocity thoughout the whole song. That's actually what lead to the jazzy part at 0:53. A while ago, all I had was solo piano playing ice cap. It was pretty boring. But I was listening to hydrocity act 1 and slowed it down a bit, then got the idea. A little rearragement later, and it showed up. Another reason why there isn't so much of hydrocity in some parts is because at first this was just going to be a mix of ice cap. I got the idea for hydrocity as I was writing what would come after 2:10. I love hydrocity, and noticed it was in the same key as ice cap, and thought the transition would be nice and smooth. From there, everything started changing and I made the song more about hydrocity (which I think is a better song than ice cap) except for the off-key ice cap theme I have with the saxes. But ice cap lends itself better to interpretation because it has a very "predictable" rhythm. Hydrocity on the other hand rarely uses the same note durations for more than 2 or 3 notes and jumps around the different pitches. It's much harder to arrange hydrocity than ice cap and I think that's what led to the section from 3:34 to 3:53. From then on it's strictly hydrocity arrangement and interpretation (like mixing two parts of hydrocity 2 into one section between measures and half measures from 3:57 to 4:47). By then I realized I hadn't really done much reinterpretation of hydrocity, and tried to come up with a section to follow. It took a long time to find and a lot of ideas never ended up working. But eventually, after just sitting down at the piano and trying different things with it (I created sheet music for hydrocity for piano and learned the right hand, and I based each hydrocity section off of my transcription), I came up with 4:55 to the end. I would greatly like to put hydrocity in more places (did you catch the flute doing it at 3:42 and 3:47?) as well as put a little more jazz into some parts. Sometimes it just takes someone else to point something out that you know you need to do, but it hadn't hit exactly what that was. Know what I mean? In doing that, I know that I will have other ideas to add to other places to vary it up, which will change the flow and add direction. Right now I've got many different sections that are all different. I'd like to change it a bit to add a smaller climax to each section with a resolution to the next section, which will lead to a small climax and another resolution, constantly building until (what is right now) 5:30, which will be the climax of the whole song, and the resolution being the ending which I have.

When you say that hydrocity is so much more rhythmically unpredictable than ice cap, I find that the contention between the two could prove to be very interesting. Maybe experiment with layering one theme over the other? You'd have to change some chords and some notes, but having the ice cap theme soaring over the rhythmic drive of hydrocity could be VERY cool. Just an idea ;)



About the composer question...I do, in a way. I've played piano for quite some time, but in a different way than most people. A lot of people seem to just want to play what's in front of them. I like to see what the piece is, and I'll likely learn it that way. But once I have it memorized (which is as soon as I get to the end - I memorize as I practice each section), I will play it differently than what's written because I think some parts are boring, or that I like it but want to play it a bit differently. Take Path of Repentence from FFX. It's a nice song. But it's also a massive run of 8th notes. But who says I have to play it that way? Triplets are nice, as is interweaving the left and right hands. Listen to this to see what I mean: http://www.box.net/shared/shunyb08w0 . Another thing I like to do is to change the overall groove. Here I've got the version written (I think it's Turkish March by Martha Mier), and then I play it again in a way that I interpret it: http://www.box.net/shared/332pga9kwo . All that got me thinking about doing the same thing to ice cap, and that's where I started this song from, doing what I do normally with piano songs, but adding it to other instruments, drums, etc. And yes, Secrets Hidden in the Deep is my first attempt at an actual remix (doing something other than sitting at a piano and playing with a song). I love the sound of piano, and that's why this has so much piano in it, but I do think I need to shift focus in a couple of spots so listeners won't get tired hearing it.
I do believe interpretation and creativity, as well as improvisation in general, is unbelievably important-especially for a pianist. Keep messing with music :)

I do think you could stand to change up the texture. I know what it's like to love a sound, but don't spoil yourself ;)

[Sengin]

Ok, got a new version going. I added bass in a lot of areas, so it sounds a whole lot more full. I also changed the intro to hydrocity act 2 to be a bit more jazzy to relate to the earlier hydrocity section. I also added so EQ and verb to the pianos, fooled around with the sax with a slight delay and some EQ, and made a couple of other changes throughout.

Let me know what you think!
http://www.box.net/shared/7p1s1cfsws

[ladyspritzy]

i like it. though it kinda jumps from one music genre to another (eg from a very jazzy feel at the begining to a very strained and epic-battle-ish sound in the middle) it does so in a very smooth and polished way, making the song exiting. it could almost be the theme song to a movie or something else.
i'm tempted to write a poem inspired by this. would you mind?

[Rozovian]

If this is going to OCR, you might want to cut some length, or you're gonna end up with a low bitrate to fit the 6 megs limit.

The transition from straight to swing was a bit too sudden, you might want to have something in the bg, some faint rhythm track to ease the transition. While on the jazzy topic, some jazzness are just clashing on purpose, and doesn't seem to work, not being introduced as a jazz piece.

Piano, a lot of the time, could use some EQ boosting in its highs and lows. Actually, the whole track seems like it could use some contrast. I recommend a multiband compressor on the master to make sure you have a healthy balance of highs and lows at all times. Currently, it's a bit thick around the waist, and the reduced amount of highs make it sound low-quality.

The differences throughout are enjoyable, but some transitions could use some work. It also has something of a style-wise medley-itis, so the transitions are crucial to the flow of the track. Tempo changes are fine, it's the writing I'm talking about. Drums are pretty boring and poorly mixed, to be frank. Mostly, it's low kick+shaker, plus some other percussion. A more balanced EQ mix might improve it, but you might have to work a bit on the drum writing.

I did hear the Ice Cap Zone in there, and something else I reocgnized, among all the styles. If this isn't interpretive enough, something's wrong with OCR. You're in the green as far as source/interpretation goes, afaik.

Impressive variety of styles, just needs some writing fixes and production improvements. Great stuff.

[Sengin]

i'm tempted to write a poem inspired by this. would you mind?

No, I wouldn't mind at all. In fact, please do. I am flattered that you want to write a poem that my song inspired! Just at least let me know when it's finished :) Thanks for taking the time to listen and post!

If this is going to OCR, you might want to cut some length, or you're gonna end up with a low bitrate to fit the 6 megs limit.

I thought about that, but there was recently a good-quality mix posted at 6:30, plus DiscoDan has his Triforce Majure that clocks in at 7:20. I was hoping to find a good VBR encoder, but priority was on working on the mix and finishing it.

The transition from straight to swing was a bit too sudden, you might want to have something in the bg, some faint rhythm track to ease the transition.

Do you mean the transition at 0:28? I have strings in the background, but it is a bit faded, and it does stop immediately at the first note...

While on the jazzy topic, some jazzness are just clashing on purpose, and doesn't seem to work, not being introduced as a jazz piece.

Can you please provide a time in which is doesn't work? Do you think that 0:47-0:49 has too much clash? EDIT: I found two notes in another track that caused a lot of the bad dissonance. I'll try to upload a version soon without it.

Piano, a lot of the time, could use some EQ boosting in its highs and lows. Actually, the whole track seems like it could use some contrast. I recommend a multiband compressor on the master to make sure you have a healthy balance of highs and lows at all times. Currently, it's a bit thick around the waist, and the reduced amount of highs make it sound low-quality.

Hmm...thanks. I will take a good look at it. I've been trying to figure out why the whole mix sounds "odd" to me and how to fix it, and I think that's why (not enough of the spectrum at all times) and a tool to help fix it. What instrument would you recommend for the highs? Synth/flute, or something different?

The differences throughout are enjoyable, but some transitions could use some work.

Yes, I know, and I am working on it, though besides adding something in the bg at the transition times, I'm a little stuck at the moment.

Drums are pretty boring and poorly mixed, to be frank. Mostly, it's low kick+shaker, plus some other percussion. A more balanced EQ mix might improve it, but you might have to work a bit on the drum writing.

I figured they were for the most part (what did you think of the drums at the piano/sax hydrocity part?). I don't think drums are my forte...well, this being my first mix, I'm still trying to FIND my forte :P. Do you think just spicing up the rhythm would help, or do you think new drums or keeping the rhythms but changing the sample to a different kind of drum would help?

I did hear the Ice Cap Zone in there, and something else I reocgnized, among all the styles. If this isn't interpretive enough, something's wrong with OCR. You're in the green as far as source/interpretation goes, afaik.

Thanks! It's a remix of Ice Cap and Hydrocity Acts I and II. And I was a little worried about it not being interpretive enough, but I don't think I am anymore.

Impressive variety of styles, just needs some writing fixes and production improvements. Great stuff.

Thank you for your critique and comments. I have some more energy for working on this now, I think I just needed another person (or 2) to have a listen and to give me feedback.

[Sengin]

I updated a slightly updated version. Fixed drums a little in a small section, took out some focus from piano and added some flamenco guitar in a section. About the guitar: yes? no? Opinions? I still have a lot to do, including the panning on the guitar and piano starting at the part after the Ice Cap section (and more).

EDIT: Uploaded a more updated version. Changed some EQ for the high range starting at the sax ice cap, raised the high ranges of the piano to make it brighter, changed some panning around, and various other tweaks and such. The transition from hydrocity to ice cap is indeed awkward as of now, I know. That's just where I started messing with the EQ. I'll work on that, and other transitions, tomorrow. Any comments?

http://www.box.net/shared/7p1s1cfsws

[Rozovian]

Bells in the intro sound modulated. Me no like them's sound.

Transition at around 0:29 is still a bit too sharp. Also, there's an audible levels change there that's also too sharp.

Piano sounds too dry. Noticeably in the intro and towards the end. Consider automating the reverb mix level so you can just raise it into the intro and ending. Alternately, use two pianos, one with reverb, one without.

0:47 or wherever the clashes were, they're gone now. And they're not missed.

You might still be a bit too conservative with the source chord progression. I would enjoy not having to hear it over and over again (e.g. pre 1:30).

Transition at 2:23 is too sharp. Introduce the drums earlier, carry the percussion a bit into the new section. That section, 2:23-> could use a low bass to back up the drums. Shaker is centered, which is a little annoying, imo. Stereo spread it and pan it somewhere.

Transition out of it (3:09) works better, but could also be a little too sharp. The harp-like isntrument that comes in after that is a bit too exposed, I recommend a bit of reverb and dropping its volume a bit.

Hmm...thanks. I will take a good look at it. I've been trying to figure out why the whole mix sounds "odd" to me and how to fix it, and I think that's why (not enough of the spectrum at all times) and a tool to help fix it. What instrument would you recommend for the highs? Synth/flute, or something different?

It depends on the style you've got going. A synth might work in one of the more electronic sections, whereas high legato strings or a ride would work in other sections. The problem isn't "what", it's "how much". EQ or multiband compression could let you raise it. I can't find a section with _nothing_ in the high range, so you just need a little of the abovementioned effects. Besides, I think your new version already got that fixed.

Left-panned piano should have an EQ cut so it's not as mid-heavy when it's there. It feels like it's pulling the foundation for the track left, leaving it vertically skewed. Drop its mids when it's there, or push it closer to the mid. You've got something in the high range centered, starting at 4:30. That could be pushed to the left, since you've got the left channel's high range covered by another melody. if you replace the panning of the piano and the 430C instrument, you don't need to EQ the piano. That's just a suggestion, of course.

I figured they were for the most part (what did you think of the drums at the piano/sax hydrocity part?). I don't think drums are my forte...well, this being my first mix, I'm still trying to FIND my forte :P. Do you think just spicing up the rhythm would help, or do you think new drums or keeping the rhythms but changing the sample to a different kind of drum would help?

Drums just need longer loops, or a second loop with some slight variations. Nothing big. The drum rhythm could change as part of the transition to the next style, fixing both some of the drum repeition AND the transitions. :D

This is a significant improvement. Good stuff.

Please take the time to answer the questions in this post (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17963#post442736).

[Sengin]

Thank you again for your review and comments, they are much appreciated! Also, I responded to those questions in the post.

Man, doesn't it suck when you spend a couple hours trying things just to come to terms with that it doesn't work? Ah well.

[Sengin]

Updated! Hopefully for the last time. There are a host of new changes, on a medium to small scale. Panning, volume, instrument changes (slightly), timing differences, EQ, more variance in the drums, some new notes, changed intro to be a bit more jazzy leading into the first section, and more. Check it out! And please leave feedback.

http://www.box.net/shared/7p1s1cfsws

[Rozovian]

Gonna be quick and just write what comes to mind as I listen:

Piano needs some velocity work. Nice slowdown.

It's a bit quiet. Either that, or the past few wips I heard have wrecked my ears.

Drop percussion is nice, but don't overuse it. And avoid repeating stuff... oh good, wasn't a full repeat. Still, at 1:40, it's a little repetitive. You might want to move an octave... oh, you did that next. Well, you might want to move something down before then, just to vary it a little more.

And into the latino rhythm. 2:23 transition is a little too sharp. Shaker here is a little annoying, it's got some pan effect on it. Pan it a bit one way, and use a soft stereo echo to spread it. makes it less annoying. Once again, it gets repetitive before it changes, so you might want to switch some piano parts to an electric piano or something else to make it more varied.

3:40 section could use a 3-note reference to the ice cap zone theme somewhere, just to make it a little more interesting. Your latino-ish single semi-note steps at the end of a section get a little annoying after a few times, you might want to come up with something else.

Slowdown at 5:10, nice. The following section could use some velocity work, it feels a bit mechanical. I think I'm hearing some, but I think it needs more. Also, that part is too long. Cut it by half, nobody's gonna complain (you might be the one exception to that).

Repetition, annoying bits and pieces... But it's only getting better. Great work.

Listeners, please take the time to answer the questions in this post (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17963#post442736). Thanks for alnswering them, Sengin.

[Sengin]

Piano needs some velocity work. Nice slowdown.

Yep, it does. I've gone through and edited all the piano velocities, but because I don't have a midi keyboard, I don't see just how much velocities are altered, so I think a difference of say, 80 to 95 is plenty. However, it is not. But after thinking it is, you start to miss out on the fact that it isn't. Thanks for reminding me.

It's a bit quiet. Either that, or the past few wips I heard have wrecked my ears.

I think it's both, but after thinking about it, I do think it could start a little louder.

Drop percussion is nice, but don't overuse it.

What exactly are you referring to here?

Still, at 1:40, it's a little repetitive. You might want to move an octave... oh, you did that next. Well, you might want to move something down before then, just to vary it a little more.

I've got a few ideas :)

And into the latino rhythm. 2:23 transition is a little too sharp.

I'm racked my brain, but I can't come up with a good enough transition. I guess I just haven't thought enough yet.

Once again, it gets repetitive before it changes, so you might want to switch some piano parts to an electric piano or something else to make it more varied.

I've tried a couple ideas here and there over time, and came up with nothing other than the general ice cap theme for a bit, then more of a sax duel before transitioning into the next part. But I haven't gotten to thinking about this part for a while yet, so I'm bound to come up with something. ...I just got an idea, we'll see how it goes...

3:40 section could use a 3-note reference to the ice cap zone theme somewhere, just to make it a little more interesting.

You know, I had that in a note I wrote to myself somewhere, but it got lost and forgotten with focus on other things over time. Thanks for the reminder!

Also, that part is too long. Cut it by half, nobody's gonna complain (you might be the one exception to that).

Yep, but it's probably just my stubbornness. I'll give it a shot (I'll probably remove the first section before the left hand comes in).

Repetition, annoying bits and pieces... But it's only getting better. Great work.

Again, thanks for the review! I'm sure I'll have another one up soon, and maybe you won't have any complains then :P

I see many people downloading the wip, even if it's only a single critique, can you please leave something? Most of the posts in this thread are by me, and I'd sure like to hear other people's opinions. Thanks!

[Rozovian]

Piano velocities... I don't play piano enough to know, but I think a 15-step range is a little short. 70-100 could work. Not that I do much piano work, but I've used the 70-127 range, tho that could get a bit too aggressive.

Drop percussion - eh, sorry, drop-like percussion. Before 1:40 iirc (too lazy to relisten). It appeared a little too often. You can use it more than you did, but not that much within that same section. I think it played three times, you could remove the middle one and add some later in the track.

I think you've improved most transitions, and you're obviously improving the track as a whole. 2:23's gotta be a difficult transition.

As for volume, use a multiband compressor on the master to boost the frequency ranges individually, get the track to peak just over 0dB and then use a limiter to kill those peaks. That's what I usually do, it's something I recommend. Be careful about overcompressing, or compressing the bands unevenly.

Take a backup before removing length. Always take backups, whether it's because the program's corrupt your file or you make drastic changes to it.

Good luck.

[ladyspritzy]

Thaw

A desperate cry, unyielding ice
Another’s war over meaningless dispute
Cold, alone, fear frozen in bone
Heartless moon, hidden sun
Bronze sunset, and frozen chill
Drip- quiet fun: a warm, damp breeze
Water over stone, the playful trickle
Calm mind and easy pleasures
A subtle beat, a background hum
The happy hymn of hydro
While the leak continues to grow
Uncertain chimes across rimy dunes
Solid blocks, shifting snow
A frigid desert of frost
Windblown awe, silent respect
While the firmness cracks and breaks
Slow at first: a bird waking up
Then bursting to life it rushes forward
The flurry of unbound joy
The cyclone of battle, the frostbitten spray
Fields of freeze kicked up and dispersed
Sound stolen by the powdery plain
A frightened pause, a silent suspension
The winds steal across the ice-locked lands
Shatter- the maelstrom returns, the eye flees
Hailstorm of anger, terror, and confusion
Whips and stings with burning icefire
A whirlwind of life, the happy chaos
Down to the hidden, benevolent liquid
Procession of praise, dances of exhilaration
Ordered and excited, bursts of wild glorification
Parade of peace, triumphant march
The beauty of water unmatched and unstopped
Perplexing exultation, shower of bliss
Turbulent rush of impulsive waves
Surge of flexible, beautiful power
Trickle away to the darkest corners
Stealing off for freedom and solitude
Out of the gleeful mist freeze and fluid meet
Twins, similar and analogous
Intolerable and competitive, rivaling siblings
Clash of minds, confrontation of difference
A furious, squalling brawl, a duet of violent fate
Sweet, compromised turmoil
Two descending to one
Gorgeous dance of concession
Convergence of the identical adversaries
Abandoned and combined
Fused intellect and amalgamated spirit
Duo of singular intent
Flood.

Okay, quickie note, this isn't quite based off the most recent version: rather, it's based off the version right before my first post. Hope you still enjoy!

[WillRock]

Ok, first of i'll say that you have chosen a bloody difficult source tune (ice cap) simply because every single living creature in the entire milky way galaxy has remixed this song at some point.

Or it seems that way.

The intro is cool, I love the mood, and the electric piano/pad sound is awesome, I'm loving that. :razz:

However I am not a fan of the piano, rozo is right about the velocities, bring them down and vary them more. The piano sounds really mechanical imo and the velocity range is too high for the mood you are trying to get here.

So the ice cap melody starts. Some of the notes in the piano clash, and that is seriously bothering me. I would sort them out.

This problem is has gone by the time the drums come in though.

I also like the variation you put in the melody, thats great :D

The only complaint here is that I can't here a bass, and the texture here sounds a little empty because of it.

Original section at 1.29: more piano notes clashing here - maybe its your style, as I sometimes use dissonant chords that others dislike.

Hydro city section - loving this bit, the piano is cool as well, no probs here.

The Ice cap section after it is cool as well, good variations.

The original section at 3.10 - not sure it worked with the key change. It is ice cap? I'm not sure, but it sounds a little like it. The next part that carries on the track and goes into hydro is a little weird, but its cool, I like to hear something different.

the transition to hydro at 3.34 is sick, I love that.

The hydro section, I'm hearing clashing notes again, not as frequent, but its starting to annoy me a little :(

4.33 onwards is cool, I'm liking that.

The solo piano at the end is also good, I'm liking that a lot, especially when complimented by the left hand piano later on.

I love the way the pad fades in and tracks to a close, with the water drop sound, thats a great touch.

There are some great ideas here, my crits are mechanical piano, and clashing notes in it. Also, as far as I can hear, there is no bass :(

I think you may just get away with it, but it does sound empty at points in the piece.

However, you have more than edited the source tunes enough to warrant praise from the judges I'm guessing.

Nice work :nicework:
I look forward to hearing more :D

[WillRock]

And for those who want sources :D

Ice Cap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYxlqTpZ-24

Hydrocity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K1rV9kFs6I

Oh yeah, and I disagree, with rozo, I think it is loud enough :S

[Sengin]

[wonderful poem]

Okay, quickie note, this isn't quite based off the most recent version: rather, it's based off the version right before my first post. Hope you still enjoy!

Wow! I definitely enjoyed it. Thanks for much for writing one, and for sharing it. If my song ever gets on OCR, I'll be sure to leave a link here to it (or do you have it online somewhere on your own webpage?) in the comments section. Thanks again! It's beautiful.


And thanks to Willrock for his time listening and reviewing.

Ok, first of i'll say that you have chosen a bloody difficult source tune (ice cap) simply because every single living creature in the entire milky way galaxy has remixed this song at some point. Or it seems that way.

Haha, yeah it seems that way. That's why I didn't include the source :P. At first it was just Ice Cap, but then I really wanted to incorporate Hydrocity in there, and forgot to link to the source.

So the ice cap melody starts. Some of the notes in the piano clash, and that is seriously bothering me. I would sort them out.

Do you mind telling me exactly where, in the course of the whole song? The only notes I used to purposely sound dissonant are from 0:48-0:50. Other than that, I don't know what you are referring to.

The only complaint here is that I can't here a bass, and the texture here sounds a little empty because of it.

Are you sure you can't hear it (are you on headphones, lowered the master EQ for bass or the bass on your speakers)? The piano plays the role of the bass until 0:58, where the bass drum comes in, and it's there throughout the song (with variations, etc...) except at the very end and from 1:48-2:09 where the hydrocity section in being introduced.

The original section at 3.10 - not sure it worked with the key change. It is ice cap? I'm not sure, but it sounds a little like it. The next part that carries on the track and goes into hydro is a little weird, but its cool, I like to hear something different.

It's not quite Ice Cap, it's a section that was inspired by ice cap though.

the transition to hydro at 3.34 is sick, I love that.

Yeah, I really love what came out of me for that transition :D

4.33 onwards is cool, I'm liking that.

I hope people like that section, because it took me such an incredibly long ass time to find a suitable way to mess with the hydrocity zone act 2 melody and make it interesting, but also in keeping with the style of non-standard notes that is hydrocity. Glad you like it!

The solo piano at the end is also good, I'm liking that a lot, especially when complimented by the left hand piano later on.

Do you think it is too long, or do you think it works as it is?

There are some great ideas here, my crits are mechanical piano, and clashing notes in it. Also, as far as I can hear, there is no bass :(

I agree with the piano, I'm working on that (there is variation on the velocities everywhere, just not enough). I don't understand what you are meaning about the clashing notes and bass, though.

Nice work :nicework: I look forward to hearing more :D

Thanks!

[WillRock]

Do you mind telling me exactly where, in the course of the whole song? The only notes I used to purposely sound dissonant are from 0:48-0:50. Other than that, I don't know what you are referring to.



Well there are clashes in the piano part at 0.31 (beginning of bar) 0.34 (beginning of bar again)
Theres several notes in the left hand piano parts that clash with the key you are playing in as well in the next two bars.

There is a clash at 0.44 (third beat of bar) as well.

That is for the first section anyway.




Are you sure you can't hear it (are you on headphones, lowered the master EQ for bass or the bass on your speakers)? The piano plays the role of the bass until 0:58, where the bass drum comes in, and it's there throughout the song (with variations, etc...) except at the very end and from 1:48-2:09 where the hydrocity section in being introduced.

Hmm... after listening VERY HARD (and yes, I have checked my EQ setup, its normal and I use headphones that usually pick up bass frequencies) I can hear it sometimes very faint, but usually, its completely overshadowed by the bass notes on the piano. Turn up the bass dude!


Do you think it is too long, or do you think it works as it is?

It seems fine to me mate :D

[Sengin]

Ok, new version. Less repetitive. I decided to keep the ending as it was, but I did more velocity work. Did some velocity work in the intro as well. Changed up some parts, made it less repetitive and joined both themes together. Finally found a better transition at 2:23 from hydro to ice. Adjusted some volume levels and other tidbits. As always, link here:

http://www.box.net/shared/7p1s1cfsws

And Willrock, I actually had the bass up a bit beforehand, but it was too overpowering, so I lowered it to what it is now. I can still hear and feel it strongly though on my speakers (Logitech G51 with the subwoofer setting in the middle).

And also as always, please leave feedback!

[Rozovian]

Piano could sue some more reverb, and when it's solo or almost solo, it needs more bass. It might be a little too loud in some parts, you might want to have a good look at what parts you _need_ to be loud and which ones you can drop a few dB.

Your drums need work, they just don't have the energy they should have. The shaker could be panned a bit, the congas nor whatever could be panned opposite. Drums in the 2:23- section just don't sound good. Going for a simpler bass drum pattern would probably make it more tolerable, as much as four on the floor isn't very creative, it tends to be out of the way for other rhythms.

2:41, 2:49, are a couple of note clashes that I could hear in that section. Dunno if that's what Willrock was talking about.

Piano is a little mechanical, you might want to make the attack and cutoff respond to the velocity if you haven't already. If you have, make the attack more sensitive to it.

It's got a very sharp sound, you might want to cut back on the highs on the master EQ a little.

Other than that, and the occasional clutter, it's pretty good. Keep at it, man.

Remixer, listeners, please take the time to answer the questions in this post (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17963#post442736), we're trying to improve the WIP board and we need your feedback.

[Sengin]

Thanks (again!) for your suggestions. Do you like the new melodies I added to make it less repetitive and to fit the themes together? And do you agree with Willrock that the bass is inaudible?

[Rozovian]

I have the amazing ability to forget most how earlier versions sounded. :D I thought some transitions were better in this version than what I can remember, but it gets a bit cluttery at times.

I do agree with Willrock, I can't hear it either. The bass isn't that important to the track, tho, imo. Or hey wait... are you talking about the bass drum (which I can hear, barely), or an actual bass instrument?

[Sengin]

The bass drum. The bass instrument is usually filled by the piano, though I have a couple bass percussion that imitate an instrument from time to time. But I was meaning the bass drum, yes. I shall turn it up then (my speakers may boost the bass automatically). Thanks.

What are you opinions on the instrument quality? On the #ocrwip channel I've gotten "good arrangement, bad quality instruments, it probably won't pass mostly for that reason."

[ladyspritzy]

Okay, I'm not so hot at the whole music-making-on-the-computer thing (since I've never done so) but I do know what I like.I like the new opening. It's just as good at the last one, and I don't think it needs much, if any, improvement.At 1:48, I think it sounds just a little abrupt, but maybe that's just me.The whole thing from 3:34 to about 5:12 is still pretty good, but I liked it when the drum could be heard more. Also, the harpsicord (or at least, the thing that kinda sounds like one) is a little random in when it plays. If you could make it a litle more regular, and maybe make compete with the piano less, taht'd be cool.But of course, that's just me, and I write more than I make music.

[Rozovian]

I don't think they sound unrealistic. Or actually I do, but some reverb and other processing should fix that, reverb on the piano at least.

The percussion might need some EQ and compression to enhance its sound, but I don't think this sounds terribly unrealistic. If you can, tweak the piano filter so softer velocities aren't as open and clear, that should further improve the piano sound.

[Sengin]

Here we go again, another version. Been busier lately and haven't had a whole lot of time. Changes: added more verb (mostly on piano), changed a couple notes and velocities here and there, and started working on changing the velocities of each drum hit. So far I'm about halfway done (keep that in mind when reviewing, please, the velocities are constant starting at about 3 minutes in). It's very slow work. Also increased a bpm from 95 to 96 at one point (yeah, I know, no one is going to know, but I'm a CS major and 96 is a much better number that 95 so I changed it). I also increased the overall tempo at the end and then threw it in a blender: instead of a straight tempo line, it goes up and down very rapidly which average is faster than it was, anyway, it sounds a bit more like a person is playing it now, especially since I've edited the velocities even more. Oh, and there's bass now, I can't remember if I've upped a version that fixed that problem (my speakers automatically boosted the bass, so it was much louder than it really was).

Changes to come:
-The section before the final solo piano section is going to be much more cohesive and much more climactic, incorporating most of the instruments that appear in the mix.
-Increase the volume of the intro
-Mess with the overall volume in different sections to create a more dynamic feeling within the whole of the piece

After that, if there are no big things that I need to fix, I'll probably submit it. Please leave any comments, both good and bad, if you will.

http://www.box.net/shared/7p1s1cfsws

[WillRock]

hmm... I'm still not liking the piano sound, its clashing with itself a lot (to often for me to be specific) I think the problem with the piano is that there is to much sustain and reverb on it, all the notes bleed into one another. There's weird chromatic notes in the melody at the start as well, like I said before.

Oh, and in my earlier comments about the bass, I was referring to a bass instrument, not the kick drum.
Listening to it now, I'm not sure it needs a bass, but I wouldn't argue if you did.

I suggest tidying up the piano, remove from of the sustain/reverb, and sort out the clashing notes for now.

Everything else seems to be pretty cool, plenty of variation in the melody and arrangement, and the production is good. Just sort out that piano dude.

Sounding good :D

[Sengin]

http://www.box.net/shared/7p1s1cfsws

Woo, update. Changed the part before the solo piano ending a lot. Added sax and flutes to it. Changed little things here and there, finished editing drum velocities. And more little things. I think it's real close to being finished, so definitely any feedback is wanted and appreciated. Thanks.