Are the lead guitars' EQ job ok?

[CHIPP Damage]

http://chipp_damage.sitesled.com/Music/MP3%20of%20Valkyriemix%20with%20new%20Lead%20EQ.mp 3

This is the main solo section of my current remix-in-progress. I'm having a heck of a time deciding what makes a good lead guitar sound that fits into this mix. I think this version sounds pretty good, but I'd like to hear other comments. Anyone have a word of advice for me?

Thank you for your time.

[zircon]

The whole mix definitely sounds weird. The kicks have all this sub, but not a lot of 'punch'. There's a gaping whole in the lows and low-mids. The rhythm guitars should be taking up way more space, particularly some beef low-end; likewise the bass is only really audible in the mid? The hats/snares sound tiny. It's hard to comment strictly on the lead when the whole thing sounds off - I mean they do stand out appropriately (maybe a bit of reverb/delay to wetten it up?) but I think you need to revise the entire mix.

[CHIPP Damage]

The whole mix definitely sounds weird. The kicks have all this sub, but not a lot of 'punch'. There's a gaping whole in the lows and low-mids. The rhythm guitars should be taking up way more space, particularly some beef low-end; likewise the bass is only really audible in the mid? The hats/snares sound tiny. It's hard to comment strictly on the lead when the whole thing sounds off - I mean they do stand out appropriately (maybe a bit of reverb/delay to wetten it up?) but I think you need to revise the entire mix.

Really? Damn it! Ok thanks man. I don't get it. I thought everything else sounded freaking sweet. Back to square one with the EQ.

[zircon]

Haha, didn't mean to ruin your mood, man. Sorry. The actual timbres used are good IMO, just a matter of mix/EQ rebalancing. At least you're not muddy; everything sounds crisp and clean. What's your monitoring setup like? Maybe that's what's throwing you off in those low freqs.

[Fray]

Yeah -- "monitoring" was the first thing I thought when I saw Zirc say it sounded way off and you said you thought it sounded sweet :P

[CHIPP Damage]

I think we ARE actually hearing the same things though. By "monitoring" you mean how I can listen to the playback right? I recorded the guitars and then put them into sonar and I just listen with my 20 dollar headphones. Hahaha. I've been working with Tensei san A LOT (Thank you man!) and he said that since we can clearly hear all the notes, the rhythm guitars don't need any EQ changes, and I agreed with that. But if you say, they need more meat, then I'll try something else. I'll be so happy when I can call the instrumental production finished and finally start adding in the vocals.

[CHIPP Damage]

I wonder if I could request some "from scratch" EQ advice of you.

http://chipp_damage.sitesled.com/Music/ValkywipMP3.mp3

This is the version that hasn't had any EQ or effects added to anything except the drums. You (Zircon) said the snare and hi hat are too small, but I don't know. They were louder before I thought that they're always too loud in like EVERY song I ever listen to. So I brought them down. Bass drum needs more punch huh?... OK.

[Fray]

By "monitoring" I mean the speakers and/or headphones you're listening on. Speaker systems and headphones are not all created equal -- the effectively apply their own EQ curve to the sound. The headphones and speakers that are better for monitoring deliberately try to have as flat of a frequency response curve as possible. This isn't easy to do, which is why pro studios spend $OMG,000 on monitors.

So in your specific situation, Zircon (using dedicated monitor speakers I think) is hearing all kinds of wierd stuff on the low end: "The kicks have all this sub, but not a lot of 'punch'. There's a gaping whole in the lows and low-mids. . .". But your cheap headphones probably aren't capable of producing much bass sound anyway, at least not a very accurate one -- so you don't hear the problem. This can be tricky, because even good headphones have a tough time with low end since those frequencies are felt more than they are heard.

So if it sounds good on $20 headphones, why don't we all throw away our fancy pants monitors and just mix on the consumer grade equipment that everyone is using anyway? Because not all consumer systems distort the sound in the same way. You can probably experience this -- most cars have too much bass response, so burn a CD of your mix and listen to it in your car. You'll probably hear all kinds of goofy stuff (particularly bass) that you didn't notice on your headphones. But if you then used your car system to change up the EQ, you'd screw up how it sounds on headphones. Good monitors (in theory at least) provide you the best middle ground -- they let you hear problems in all frequency ranges so that you can find the best happy medium for all the different speaker systems out there. I.e. creating a mix that "transports well".

Your easiest solution? Save up about $100 for a good pair of mixing headphones (ones that have a flat response). There are a couple of threads already in this forum that talk about the best ones to get.

[Fray]

You (Zircon) said the snare and hi hat are too small, but I don't know. They were louder before I thought that they're always too loud in like EVERY song I ever listen to.

Yep, that's probably because $20 headphones tend to be pretty trebly...

[CHIPP Damage]

Ugh. I hate spending money all the time for this stuff. I guess I have no choice though. Thanks Fray.

[Legion303]

To answer your question, the lead tone sounds good, but slightly out of tune right at the beginning. Is that because you doubled it with a synth line?

The guitar work reminds me of In Flames when they didn't suck.

-steve

[CHIPP Damage]

To answer your question, the lead tone sounds good, but slightly out of tune right at the beginning. Is that because you doubled it with a synth line?

The guitar work reminds me of In Flames when they didn't suck.

-steve

I think it's because it's just a dissonant harmony. I don't remember the exact notes now, (one of them was an A, I think) but I remember that I transposed up the low part of the harmony up an octave from the source tune. So perhaps it was a 7th before and now it's just a 2nd which sounds a little more dissonant because it's closer together. That COULD be it. ^_^ Those are only guitars, no synths. I'm glad I sound like a famous metal band! Thank you!

[Fray]

Ugh. I hate spending money all the time for this stuff. I guess I have no choice though. Thanks Fray.

You're welcome. You do have a choice though -- just EQ conservatively and get somebody else to check your mix or listen to it in your car. I haven't heard the first version (link is broken), but the "flat" one didn't sound bad. I didn't mean to make you think you HAVE to go sink a whole bunch of money right away -- it's just something to put on your birthday wish list or whatever. You can work with what you have as long as you're aware of its limitations.

I too like your guitar playing :)

[Knives]

Ugh. I hate spending money all the time for this stuff. I guess I have no choice though. Thanks Fray.

You can get a really good pair of monitor headphones for a relatively low price, say like something around 80USD. BUT YOU WON'T REGRET IT, TRUST ME! Everything sounds damn amazing through a good pair of headphones, I've given up almost entirely on my laptop speakers (which aren't bad) not only for mixing but for general listening as well. It's not one of those things just to help you mix your music better, you get to hear everyone else's work as they heard it while mixing without it being blemished or degenerated by crappy speakers. Everything's cleaner, sharper and more pristine, it makes listening to music overall a lot more enjoyable.

[zircon]

I wonder if I could request some "from scratch" EQ advice of you.

http://chipp_damage.sitesled.com/Music/ValkywipMP3.mp3

This is the version that hasn't had any EQ or effects added to anything except the drums. You (Zircon) said the snare and hi hat are too small, but I don't know. They were louder before I thought that they're always too loud in like EVERY song I ever listen to. So I brought them down. Bass drum needs more punch huh?... OK.

You know this doesn't sound bad at all. I would now roll off the sub (<40hz or so), on the rhythm guitars and kick. For metal, kicks aren't supposed to be in the sub range, they're more in the lows to even low-mids, more like a 'click' then a deep hit. The lead guitar can be more sharply rolled off. The hats are a little too piecing, so you might want to slightly reduce those. Snare could have more treble and less bass. The bass itself should fill up the remainder of the low end available.

However, I think using reference tracks is the best possible thing you can do if you can't afford a nice monitoring setup (btw, I use $175 headphones, not actual monitors - I have lots of right angles and hardwood floors).

Here's a GREAT example.
http://www.soundtempest.net/03%20Blinded%20in%20Chains.mp3

Just try to compare your mix to that and match it.

[CHIPP Damage]

Glad you could enjoy the guitar playing, Fray. I can't wait to submit this so you can hear the entire thing. The riff RIGHT after the stuff in the sample was freaking hard to play man. ^_^

Hey Knives. Thanks for the advice about the headphones. Yeah, even just for listening to music, something like that does sound appealing.

Thanks for giving me more of your time and advice Zircon. I'll try exactly what you said (Although I'd like to keep the heaviness of the bass drums AS WELL as add the snap) and then post a HOPEFULLY better version, later. ^_^

Edit: Oh man. Blinded in Chains was 0 bytes large. In other words. nothing plays.

[HoboKa]

You know this doesn't sound bad at all. I would now roll off the sub (<40hz or so), on the rhythm guitars and kick. For metal, kicks aren't supposed to be in the sub range, they're more in the lows to even low-mids, more like a 'click' then a deep hit. The lead guitar can be more sharply rolled off. The hats are a little too piecing, so you might want to slightly reduce those. Snare could have more treble and less bass. The bass itself should fill up the remainder of the low end available.

However, I think using reference tracks is the best possible thing you can do if you can't afford a nice monitoring setup (btw, I use $175 headphones, not actual monitors - I have lots of right angles and hardwood floors).

Here's a GREAT example.
http://www.soundtempest.net/03%20Blinded%20in%20Chains.mp3

Just try to compare your mix to that and match it.

You remix on headphones? Doesn't that hurt your ears over time? =/ I find that using PAD's on my earphones hurts like a bitch, then again maybe it's just because the samples are shitteh and my EQ skills suck lol.

[zircon]

Sorry CHIPP, try the link to Blinded again. It should work now.

HoboKa; No, it does not hurt. I have been remixing on headphones since June 2004. I only occasionally switch to listening on speakers just as a quick reference, or if my ears are tired (eg. listening to the same mix 5 hours straight). Physically, my current headphones are VERY comfortable and I could wear them all day (Beyerdynamic DT880). My previous pair, Sennheiser eh2200, was not comfortable for long periods.

Regardless, however, fatigue is always a possibility when on headphones. You also have an increased risk of listening at louder volumes. You tend to think you're listening quieter than you are. I've trained myself to listen very quietly so that I don't cause any damage to myself.

[HoboKa]

Sorry CHIPP, try the link to Blinded again. It should work now.

HoboKa; No, it does not hurt. I have been remixing on headphones since June 2004. I only occasionally switch to listening on speakers just as a quick reference, or if my ears are tired (eg. listening to the same mix 5 hours straight). Physically, my current headphones are VERY comfortable and I could wear them all day (Beyerdynamic DT880). My previous pair, Sennheiser eh2200, was not comfortable for long periods.

Regardless, however, fatigue is always a possibility when on headphones. You also have an increased risk of listening at louder volumes. You tend to think you're listening quieter than you are. I've trained myself to listen very quietly so that I don't cause any damage to myself.

Just as an obvious tip for you guys...don't spend 2 years of your life listenning to heavy metal full blast on your ear phones or car speakers. Fucked up my hearing pretty good...though not to a critical point.

Ah I see...I think I've caused some permanent damage to my hearing, which doesn't help my remixing learning...I find it harder to hear certain tones and lower end things.

[CHIPP Damage]

It still doesn't work, Zircon.

"Sorry, the page you requested was not found. Please check the URL for proper spelling and capitalization"

[Fray]

With headphones, keep the volume as low as you can, and take breaks every 30 minutes or so. It's really not a good idea to do 5 hours straight with them.

[zircon]

http://www.soundtempest.net/03%20Blinded%20In%20Chains.mp3

OK, I'm SURE that one works... sorry about that.

[HoboKa]

With headphones, keep the volume as low as you can, and take breaks every 30 minutes or so. It's really not a good idea to do 5 hours straight with them.

good tip :(

[Tensei]

http://www.soundtempest.net/03%20Blinded%20In%20Chains.mp3

OK, I'm SURE that one works... sorry about that.


Woo, Avenged Sevenfold! And before they sucked too!



Anyway, Jahan, I think a lot of the impact of the kick and snare comes from some heavy compression (basically everything except the attack gets subdued), so if you can't get a punchy sound by EQing alone I think you should try experimenting with compressors.

[CHIPP Damage]

Thanks Zircon for the functioning link and thanks Tensei san for the advice. I THINK I did compress them a bit once already. Remember when I was concentrating on the drum sound like 5 years ago? I think I did something like that around that time. ^_^

[CHIPP Damage]

http://chipp_damage.sitesled.com/Music/postadvicesample.mp3

Can you tell me if you think this one sounds better? I tried to follow Zircon's advice as much as I could. "Roll off" means decrease right? The only thing I went "rebellious teenager" on you about was the clicky bass drum thing. I tried to add the click without reducing the heaviness that I had. There was an extremely famous American metal band called Pantera which had a really skillful drummer whose sound engineer seemed to specialize in the clicky drums and I never liked it. I PERSONALLY like this sound a lot. But my opinion in sound quality is 95% of the time not agreed upon, so let me hear what you think. ^_^

[Tensei]

There was an extremely famous American metal band called Pantera which had a really skillful drummer whose sound engineer seemed to specialize in the clicky drums and I never liked it.

Really?!

I always considered Pantera's drum sound to be one of the best in terms of processing, and I've often enough tried to emulate it, but I guess it really comes down to personal preference =P

[CHIPP Damage]

I always considered Pantera's drum sound to be one of the best in terms of processing, and I've often enough tried to emulate it, but I guess it really comes down to personal preference =P

Yeah, I know MOST people love it. But I don't. the best drums I think I've ever heard was Stratovarius' Visions of Europe Live album. Although those were way to echoy for me to emulate in this song though.

[Harmony]

I tried to follow Zircon's advice as much as I could. "Roll off" means decrease right?
Right, but specifically it usually means to progressivly decrease the volume of the frequencies beyond some threshhold. In your case, you could have done what Zircon suggested by applying a highpass filter starting at 40Hz. Then, stuff at 40Hz gets reduced a little, 30Hz gets reduced more, 20Hz gets reduced even more, etc.

Its easy to see in a graphical equalizer. In this image (http://www.bcae1.com/images/gifs/leap02.gif), the low-freq roll-off basically starts at 70Hz for the pink and orange curves.

[zircon]

Sounds pretty good to me chipp... definitely an improvement.

[CHIPP Damage]

Cool thanks guys. After I get the vocals in and try some effects on the lead guitars I'll post one last sample. I may actually be able to get a completely independent mix on the site.

[HoboKa]

Cool thanks guys. After I get the vocals in and try some effects on the lead guitars I'll post one last sample. I may actually be able to get a completely independent mix on the site.

Yay go Chipp/Johan! :D

[Hy Bound]

I just wanted to mention that the best and cheapest way to find how things sound on a variety of monitering systems is to go to some place like ultimate electronic with a CD and listen to it on their wall of decks/speakers. If the sales guys aren't douchebags they won't mind if you aren't in during peak hours. I've done this with several mixes and it helps a LOT!

I'm usually pretty bad at figuring out some EQ issues but you can usually get them pointed out when some of the decks accentuate that frequency problem and others sound somewhat off in the same frequency area. If you can't swing the 80 or so dollars, this is a very good way to work it out and even if you do, its still pretty helpful. And hey, there might be someone in there that becomes an instant fan from what they hear ;).