Reason 4 sucks, an unbiased review.

[Siamey]

Hey thanks propellerheads, reason 4 is pretty cool. So fucking cool that the sequencer is completely different and extremely frustrating to use if you are used to any other version of reason. Thanks a fucking lot.

WHOOPS there goes 80% of the fun of reason, out the damn window. WHOOPS there goes one of the reasons i switched from FL to reason in the first place; being able to get my ideas down.

Ya know what? I used to be able to tell what song I had open by LOOKING at the sequencer overview. I have hundreds of songs. I could tell what song it was by looking at the way the groups were arranged. Now I can't tell my latest song that I've been working on from fucking Sealed Away which is like 45 years old.

Thanks for sticking your big meddling dick in my workflow. If I wanted a sequencer that looked like it was torn messily and incompletely from Cubase, I would simply... well actually I would never want that, I would just go buy Cubase. Cubase is the only place you have to look, to see just what the fuck is wrong with Reason 4's sequencer.

FUCK vector automation. Not useful, never will be.

FUCK Thor. Bloated piece of anus that sounds like every other preset that is included with subtractor and malstroem. People claim that it has amazing potential; yea after you get a masters in what oscs sound good with what filters.

Do something right for once in your fucking life propellerhead, add vsti support.

At the very least add a realistic 303 module. Im sure you have the source code for rebirth sitting around somewhere; make it a fucking reason device. Hell, give the source to me, I know some guys who could do it.

Don't give me this shit about "rebirth input machine". I want some squelchy 303 in my songs without having to write a second song in rebirth that syncs up with it. I want to automate the dials in rebirth the same way I do in reason. I want it all in one package!!

I use reason cause its simple (or was) and logical (plug in some wires and go!), why do you think I want to learn rebirth too? Its one of the most frustratingly tedious ways of making music, apart from sampling a sesame street keyboard into windows sound recorder. For christ's sake, you ported the notoriously botch-able controls of the tb303 into the program for authenticity, and I am ALL for that! But times have changed, MAKE IT FUCKING ACCESSIBLE. It sounds almost like the real thing, let us use it in a way we never could the original!!!!

"I'm so glad that I can automate the tempo and time signature now!!! Thank god!!!"

Wow, specfuckingtacular. Guess what? Get fruityloops. Or Live. Or Cubase. Or any program that allows tempo automation. Its called rewire, its not hard.

Thanks for the regroove mixer too, I always wanted my band to sound like my drummer was drunk.

I won't go so far as to as to say that there are no redeeming qualities in Reason 4, but I will say that having 2 new buttons on the audio in/out device at the top, which allow you to nicely hide some of the few used features of the device, does not make up for the barrage of bullshit and updated skins that makes up the other 99% of the update.

Maybe I should be thanking them for this update, its really opened my eyes and made me look around for other programs; shocked me out of my little reason-only fairyland.

So there you have it. Im standing out in the cold and the rain, with my soaking bag of song ideas slung over my shoulder... abandoned by the program that got me where I am. I watched it become hard and metal and sleek, unfriendly and unusable. I need to get back to the basics.

If I don't find a new land, one with lush green sequencers, crystal streams of superfluid workflows and an open door policy for immigrant softsynths, then I'll be forced back to Reason 3.

Thank god I saved backups of all my version 3 song files songs onto a cd.



Stick around for the next couple months and watch me completely start to love R4 or some shit :/ LOWL

[anosou]

Stick around for the next couple months and watch me completely start to love R4 or some shit :/ LOWL

:3
I like R4.

[Ferret]

I like how this is an unbiased review and totally not based on any sort of personal opinion or failure to adapt to changes between versions.

[Fishy]

Do something right for once in your fucking life propellerhead, add vsti support.

I love it when people say this, cause it would be the single worst thing they could do to the program.

[anosou]

I love it when people say this, cause it would be the single worst thing they could do to the program.

Did I ever mention that I like you? Cause I do.

[ILLiterate]

My only problem with Reason 4 was getting used to the new sequencer after using 2.5 for god knows how long. The thing is fine

[Lunahorum]

Originally Posted by Siamey http://www.ocremix.org/images/vbulletin/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?p=360299#post360299)
Do something right for once in your fucking life propellerhead, add vsti support.
I love it when people say this, cause it would be the single worst thing they could do to the program.
Wouldn't vst support make it way better? Right now it's only good as a rewired synthesizer. And I don't care to go out and buy refills.

[Tensei]

Wouldn't vst support make it way better?

VST support sure would make it a lot buggier and less compact/cpu-friendly. At least, that's what they say at Propellerhead.

[Fishy]

Wouldn't vst support make it way better? Right now it's only good as a rewired synthesizer. And I don't care to go out and buy refills.

Thats more or less what it was designed to be. People assume it was meant to be just like any other program. At the moment, Reason is the most stable and low resource application I know of, VSTi support would destroy that totally.

[Lunahorum]

on my computer reason seems to be a hog. I have the buffer set at 50ms and everything asio, but it can't even play the demo song.
I can play all the demo songs in FL studio/reaper just fine. I have a sonar, traktion, and live demo too, but I haven't messed around in them very much. From what I could tell, traktion and FL studio seem to own the crowd in intuitiveness without sacrificing power. Only problem with FL studio is that you can't view multiple piano rolls at once, but if you compose all the tracks in the same pattern using ghost notes, it works great.

[Fishy]

My older rubbish computer can run the most massive reason projects ever with absolutely no strain on my CPU. Fl DIES if I try and play more then 3 wav files at once. You're the only person who's ever said that reason is a cpu hog, so theres something wrong there.

[Nicholestien]

Do something right for once in your fucking life propellerhead, add vsti support.

Words cannot express how right you are. lmao.

[avaris]

The easiest way to increase CPU usage in Reason is to add TONS of Combinators.

If you want a modular host that has VST go try out EnergyXT or Usine. They are both insanely cheap.

Besides the fact that introducing VST would create an enormous amount of code and debugging to rewrite the program. That's extra $ from hiring more people. Would they make more sales? Yeah, but they would also loose loyal customers. Also adding VST would annihilate the Refill market.

Seriously if you want to use say Sytrus in Reason for example. Find or create a nice sound in Sytrus. Play 7 notes all up and down the ranges. Just press and hold. Then rip to seperate Wav's each of the 7 notes. Open up Reason and the NN-XT. Expand the NN-XT. Click on the folder icon to where you can select wav files to drop into the NN-XT. Highlight the 7 notes you just made from Sytrus. Then highlight all 7 Wavs in the NN-XT's browser right click and there is an option to detect the pitch of the notes and then map them across the keyboard in order.

Frankly a middle ground to end this whole thing would be to add Audio In and Midi Out. Then Reason could act as a Rewire Host. Or act as an FX unit when in slave mode.

[Knives]

I hated it a little at first, but I already liked it one or two days after that. You must have written your post after playing it for like 5 second, AMIRITE? You'll get used to it by tomorrow, or you may have already.

[anosou]

Words cannot express how right you are. lmao.

Words cannot express how wrong he is. lmao.

on my computer reason seems to be a hog. I have the buffer set at 50ms and everything asio, but it can't even play the demo song.
I can play all the demo songs in FL studio/reaper just fine. I have a sonar, traktion, and live demo too, but I haven't messed around in them very much. From what I could tell, traktion and FL studio seem to own the crowd in intuitiveness without sacrificing power. Only problem with FL studio is that you can't view multiple piano rolls at once, but if you compose all the tracks in the same pattern using ghost notes, it works great.


also, Reason is what Reason is. don't go yelling "I want Reason to be FL", just use FL instead.
Another thing, Reason is in no sense of the word a CPU-hog. Ever. The fact that you can't play the demo song is.. well incredibly strange. Are you using a cracked version? Are you sure you've set it up right? When you say that FL works great, are using about the same things in FL? Reverbs, synths, plugs, many tracks, mastering..? Because you can't say that Reason hogs your CPU compared to FL if all you have in FL is a synth or two..

For a bit newer computers, if you use 20-30 combinators, all with separate fx chains including dynamics and a separate RV-7000 on every unit, yeah maybe you get a bit of a CPU problem. But who the fuck does that and what other progrma can handle it? :D No one in their right mind would use a separate reverb for every track, or compressors on everything, or maximizers on everything.. or 10 different delays. You can't do that in other programs. You can in Reason, and then it gets a bit CPU-intensive (not for me though and I use a 2.33GHz intel core duo macbook pro with 2GB Ram, not that much) and people complain? wtf!


In other news, if Thor was a VST plug (including it's modular capabilities with other audio inside the program) I can bet my right arm that many would pay a couple of hundred dollars for it. or more. And that's what Reason costs.

Also, what avaris said about EnergyXT. It's great. And Linux/Windows (soon mac os x).

Last but not least, and this is important boys and girls, never use software you don't like or think is bad in some way. Ever. There is no reason in the world to do that. Get the demo and try it out. Heck, I bet most of you didn't buy Reason anyway. And if you don't like it, try something else. It's kinda logical when you think about it. And if you don't like something, don't go around bitching about it or, even more important, don't go talk shit to or about other users just because you don't like their tools of choice.

done. awesome.

[Lunahorum]

well I only have 256mb of ram. I think that is the problem. The demo in FL studio has a lot of ogg files where the demo in reason has lots of live synthesizing. Even from a blank sheet though, it seems like FL is faster

[Tensei]

No one in their right mind would use a separate reverb for every track, or compressors on everything, or maximizers on everything.. or 10 different delays.

*blushes* They wouldn't? =O

[Knives]

It's practically a fact that Reason takes less CPU than any other DAW, so don't go around crapping on the facts, YO.

[anosou]

well I only have 256mb of ram. I think that is the problem. The demo in FL studio has a lot of ogg files where the demo in reason has lots of live synthesizing. Even from a blank sheet though, it seems like FL is faster

now you're losing me.. FL is "faster" when you have nothing loaded up than Reason with nothing loaded up.. that is NOT what this is about ;P Saying that a program is faster because the UI takes more CPU/RAM than another programming is kinda missing the point. These are programs that you use to make music, the important thing is how they behave during this task. I promise you that if you make two tracks that are very similar regarding how many instruments/tracks/fx/automation lanes are used in Reason and FL, Reason will absolutely positively be more CPU efficient.

and honestly, you can play the demo in FL with 256mb RAM? :O now that's something! I've never seen that demo but wow, that demo is nice on your computer :D

*blushes* They wouldn't? =O

Want to know a secret? I do that :3 But only because I use Reason on a pretty decent music-makin' computer! I'm talking professionals, electro artists, sound engineers and whatnot.

[Hy Bound]

I have never seen so much ignorance in a thread. AS, Knives and Fishy are the only ones that know what the hell they're talking about.

As I've mentioned many times before (and burnt-out many threads before this one with my rants), vst support in Reason is like giving a $3 hooker a retarded step-brother named Warren and then spot-welding him to her face. Its completely un-necessary and not what Reason is used for. Reason is meant to be STAND ALONE! That means everything you could ever want can be used in Reason to some extent. The ReWire support is for when you want another kind of effect or synthesizer added to the output of Reason. That is also why Reason only takes up as many cpu cycles as a softsynth; because its meant to be the end-all softsynth/sampler module.

However, I do agree that the new sequencer in Reason is the sole reason (no pun intended) I haven't upgraded to R4 yet. If they gave the term "fucktardspacklestation with an anus-colored coat of un-needed fluff-paint" a definition, it would be that sequencer. Its the bastardized version of every other sequencer on the market vomited into one shitty envelope. And speaking of envelopes, its impossible to automate a damn envelope without making about 14 mouse clicks to get you there. Needless to say, I really do hate the new sequencer; and for that matter, I couldn't understand why everyone hated the original so strongly. You click on the track you want to edit, you click on the edit button, and then write in the little notes and automate with that straight-line tool. Its not difficult.

Anyway, not to get off on a tangent, but I suppose I may just skip this update and grab R5 when it comes out. I now use Live and love it and would highly recommend it to anyone.

[DJ SymBiotiX]

I'm confused, I dont see whats so hard about the vector automation. I find its about 100% quicker to vector automate, then with those steps. Plus its alot smoother. You want to automate a volume from min to max, just place a dot on the bottom left, place a dot on the top right, and your off to town. if ANYTHING the one thing I dont like is that they got rid of the line tool (unless I'm blind). I used that to do my velocities when I Wanted to do a fill, so it would smoothly go up, but now I need to do that somewhat manually. Thats about the only thing I dont like so far.

at first I didnt quite like the new sequencer, but afer a few days, I'm back to the same speed I could use the old one. I personally find it quite a bit better.

weird...

[anosou]

I have never seen so much ignorance in a thread. AS, Knives and Fishy are the only ones that know what the hell they're talking about.

As I've mentioned many times before (and burnt-out many threads before this one with my rants), vst support in Reason is like giving a $3 hooker a retarded step-brother named Warren and then spot-welding him to her face. Its completely un-necessary and not what Reason is used for. Reason is meant to be STAND ALONE! That means everything you could ever want can be used in Reason to some extent. The ReWire support is for when you want another kind of effect or synthesizer added to the output of Reason. That is also why Reason only takes up as many cpu cycles as a softsynth; because its meant to be the end-all softsynth/sampler module.

However, I do agree that the new sequencer in Reason is the sole reason (no pun intended) I haven't upgraded to R4 yet. If they gave the term "fucktardspacklestation with an anus-colored coat of un-needed fluff-paint" a definition, it would be that sequencer. Its the bastardized version of every other sequencer on the market vomited into one shitty envelope. And speaking of envelopes, its impossible to automate a damn envelope without making about 14 mouse clicks to get you there. Needless to say, I really do hate the new sequencer; and for that matter, I couldn't understand why everyone hated the original so strongly. You click on the track you want to edit, you click on the edit button, and then write in the little notes and automate with that straight-line tool. Its not difficult.

Anyway, not to get off on a tangent, but I suppose I may just skip this update and grab R5 when it comes out. I now use Live and love it and would highly recommend it to anyone.

I like getting creds, thanks ;P

Also, I miss the straight-line tool a LOT! :( Otherwise I enjoy working with clips, foldable lanes and vector automation.

[avaris]

The line tool is still there. When you have the Pencil Selected just hold "Ctrl" and it turns into the line tool. Now go make more musiks pwease! :)

[anosou]

The line tool is still there. When you have the Pencil Selected just hold "Ctrl" and it turns into the line tool. Now go make more musiks pwease! :)

w00t! I did NOT now that, you made my day

[DJ SymBiotiX]

NICE!! :D

10 char

[Siamey]

I don't want reason to be FL thanks, I left Fl cause Reason fucking wasn't FL. I've been using Reason as long as I can remember, and yes, for a long time the slogan was "stand alone music production thingy" and thats fine.

But its time to get with the fucking program.

Im going to assume that 100% of the anti-vsti-support people in this thread have no programming background and have little to no technical knowledge of how audio shit is written.

Let me be the first to say that Reason is a beautiful program and its brilliantly written and the audio programming team and propheads is one of the best in the world. They know how to write a damn program. They know how to write damn vsti support that doesn't require a quad core to run the demo song. Besides, if its programmed properly, vsti support shouldnt slow the program at all when vsti isnt being used. Don't like vsti? dont fucking use it, ignore the fact that its in the "add device" menu in reason 5 or 6 or whenever they add it, because it WILL be added. If you think it won't... well... think again.


There is no ancient tome of vsti programming knowledge scrawled on some temple wall, for us to painstakingly and badly translate, and thus add shoddy and cpu hogging support to our respective programs. Vsti is a worldwide standard and there is extensive documentation on how to add slick and steady support for it, given a programming staff that isnt inept. Almost every design choice they have made with reason, up until 4, I completely agreed with, but if they think they can survive, and grow into a program that will one day appear as the main platform for well known music tech schools with this closeminded approach then they are going the same way as Arp. Everyone was adding pitch bend wheels to their synths but Arp wanted to be unique so they held off even when they were standard EVERYwhere else. WHOOPS OUT OF BUSINESS. People will only follow a good product so far after the developers get stubborn... or lazy, which is... maybe what propellerheads is.

The concept of Refills is another close-minded approach, and while I see what you mean about pissing off refill making companies... well... maybe thats what you get for investing in a possibly dead end product.

And making my own multisamples from a vst complient DAW, every time I want to use a vsti sound is stupidly tedious, it would be a thousand times better to just use it natively, which they could very well do if they wanted :/


By the way everyone, "an unbiased review" was a joke. Ofcourse Im ranting and wigging out, ofcourse they are my oppinions, who elses would they be.

[anosou]

I don't want reason to be FL thanks, I left Fl cause Reason fucking wasn't FL. I've been using Reason as long as I can remember, and yes, for a long time the slogan was "stand alone music production thingy" and thats fine.

But its time to get with the fucking program.

Im going to assume that 100% of the anti-vsti-support people in this thread have no programming background and have little to no technical knowledge of how audio shit is written.

Let me be the first to say that Reason is a beautiful program and its brilliantly written and the audio programming team and propheads is one of the best in the world. They know how to write a damn program. They know how to write damn vsti support that doesn't require a quad core to run the demo song. Besides, if its programmed properly, vsti support shouldnt slow the program at all when vsti isnt being used. Don't like vsti? dont fucking use it, ignore the fact that its in the "add device" menu in reason 5 or 6 or whenever they add it, because it WILL be added. If you think it won't... well... think again.


There is no ancient tome of vsti programming knowledge scrawled on some temple wall, for us to painstakingly and badly translate, and thus add shoddy and cpu hogging support to our respective programs. Vsti is a worldwide standard and there is extensive documentation on how to add slick and steady support for it, given a programming staff that isnt inept. Almost every design choice they have made with reason, up until 4, I completely agreed with, but if they think they can survive, and grow into a program that will one day appear as the main platform for well known music tech schools with this closeminded approach then they are going the same way as Arp. Everyone was adding pitch bend wheels to their synths but Arp wanted to be unique so they held off even when they were standard EVERYwhere else. WHOOPS OUT OF BUSINESS. People will only follow a good product so far after the developers get stubborn... or lazy, which is... maybe what propellerheads is.

The concept of Refills is another close-minded approach, and while I see what you mean about pissing off refill making companies... well... maybe thats what you get for investing in a possibly dead end product.

And making my own multisamples from a vst complient DAW, every time I want to use a vsti sound is stupidly tedious, it would be a thousand times better to just use it natively, which they could very well do if they wanted :/


By the way everyone, "an unbiased review" was a joke. Ofcourse Im ranting and wigging out, ofcourse they are my oppinions, who elses would they be.

Wow, I still think this is stupid. If you don't like Reason as it is now, don't use it. It's exactly the same as you said about VSTis. Propellerhead is obviously not going out of business with glowing reviews, a lot of users and a solid program. They don't need to "get with the program", they can focus on what they want to do instead.

Also, damn man, they don't WANT to be "grow into a program that will one day appear as the main platform for well known music tech schools". Why be something you aren't? Reason isn't as versatile or important to learn as Logic, ProTools or Cubase. It will probably never be, except in electronic music production classes and special reason classes (SAE for example offers Reason as part of their Electronic Music Production diploma).

You're constantly nagging about that you want Reason to have VSTi support but for no apparent reason except that they have to "get with the program" which is just narrow-minded. If it is because it suits your need as a musician, fine I can understand, but a company can't really bend to the will of all their users if it doesn't go hand in hand with their concept (Ableton Live however does that since most suggestions work for their program). Also, (legitimate) users have never really complained about it and Props has numerous times said that they will NEVER add it. Most people would accept this and Reason as what it is. It's apparent you can't do that but jeez, this discussion is getting annoying.

"Im going to assume that 100% of the anti-vsti-support people in this thread have no programming background and have little to no technical knowledge of how audio shit is written. " is just low. Do you have technical knowledge about programming audio software? or VSTs for that matter? Most people that say the program will get less stable with VST support has (I hope, at least I have) heard it from credible sources. Propellerhead has said it numerous times (as previously stated) and some of the Reason old-timers that has helped with the programming, patch designing and general evolution of Reason (some are also programmers) has stated the same.

The main point remains, don't use Reason if it doesn't fit you. Just stop complaining, do something constructive. Write a detailed letter to Propellerhead and explain why it would matter to YOU to have VST support, start a protest, make a youtube vid about how you have a hard time with R4. Just don't do this angry complaining thing. It's annoying and unnessecary.

[Siamey]

Its perfectly sane to complain that a program you have used for years has suddenly made big changes that affect your workflow, so what the fuck are you talking about. Take your own advice, if you dont like it, dont read it. If its getting annoying then go home.

I already sent letters, clearly explaining the problems with reason 4, this isn't just a bitch session, its a debate.

Prop-heads is bullshitting about vsti support destroying the stability. If you have good programmers then there is nothing to bitch about. Besides, I personally don't care about vsti, but it just happens to be at the center of the issue Im bringing up, which is that Reason is fucking closeminded, and could be doing more to make their program interact well with other programs, at little cost to them.

Im raising the issues that haven't been talked about on here yet, its not pointless complaining. I can assure you I've taken "constructive" actions on the matter.

Just dont use reason if it doesnt suit you. :):):) Wow, I can honestly say that I have never heard that advice before, or even thought about it before. Imagine that, if something doesn't work for me, I should change it, what a novel idea. I can honestly say, with no hint of sarcasm, that I have never thought of that before.

What the hell else is the reason forum for, if not talking about reason? Don't try to shut me up, it's annoying and unnessecary.

[DJ SymBiotiX]

hmm.. when they say that vst's will create instability, are you assuming instability because of the support or instability of the vst in question. From what I assume, they would be able to create vst support easily, the whole "becoming unstable" thing is directed at the mounds of vst's out there already. Alot of them can be unstable in themselves and cause programs to crash, thus loosing work, thus corrupting things, etc. Also, vst's out there could be massively CPU intensive thus if it were to be used in reason, then reason wouldnt be very cpu friendly would it?

Think about it this way. Lets say a vst is like a hardware driver. Do wou want to use some random guys gfx card driver, over the ones that were made for the product itself? I know I wouldnt.

[anosou]

Its perfectly sane to complain that a program you have used for years has suddenly made big changes that affect your workflow, so what the fuck are you talking about. Take your own advice, if you dont like it, dont read it. If its getting annoying then go home.

I already sent letters, clearly explaining the problems with reason 4, this isn't just a bitch session, its a debate.

Prop-heads is bullshitting about vsti support destroying the stability. If you have good programmers then there is nothing to bitch about. Besides, I personally don't care about vsti, but it just happens to be at the center of the issue Im bringing up, which is that Reason is fucking closeminded, and could be doing more to make their program interact well with other programs, at little cost to them.

Im raising the issues that haven't been talked about on here yet, its not pointless complaining. I can assure you I've taken "constructive" actions on the matter.

Just dont use reason if it doesnt suit you. :):):) Wow, I can honestly say that I have never heard that advice before, or even thought about it before. Imagine that, if something doesn't work for me, I should change it, what a novel idea. I can honestly say, with no hint of sarcasm, that I have never thought of that before.

What the hell else is the reason forum for, if not talking about reason? Don't try to shut me up, it's annoying and unnessecary.

You were talking about VST support a LOT and not much about the new sequencer in the latest post. While it's perfectly sane to discuss changes you disliked in an application you use (though it would be nice to discuss it without sounding like an ass) that was not what you were doing in the post I replied to.
Reason hasn't actually changed much except the workflow in the sequencer, you're talking about totally changing their philosophy about the program. Why did you start complaining about this in R4? R3 didn't "interact well with other programs" nor feature VST's, a 303-device or another format than Refills, but you enjoyed that?

I've never had any problems with ReWire and I've used it extensively with other programs, mostly at school, like Logic, ProTools and Ableton Live.
hell, Wow, specfuckingtacular. Guess what? Get fruityloops. Or Live. Or Cubase. Or any program that allows tempo automation. Its called rewire, its not hard., you said it.

Another thing, do you or do you not know much about audio software programming? You're saying that they should just "get better programmers", like it was a piece of cake. First of all, they're a REALLY tiny company, 10 people in their main offic I believe and just a few of them are programmers. Second of all, VST WOULD (and this is a fact, props has said it many times) require them to rebuild the core of the program. The core that's been praised for it's stability, ease of use and ability to produce good sounds. It's very possible they do not want to do that for something they don't even think is nessecary because of other technologies that somehow complements Reason, ReWire.

I'm not trying to shut you up, I'm debating. I was telling you what I thought, for the most part in a more civilized way than you did.

[Hy Bound]

See, I have the problem that i agree with both sides to some extent.

The way I see it, adding vst support to reason is unnecessary not because of the instability issues, (because that really is just the vst's fault, not Reason's) but because most of the professionals that use Reason and a damn huge portion of the user base that I've talked to over there uses Reason as a massive vst in the first place. ReWire basically uses Reason as a vst in a host program BECAUSE it doesn't use vst's; its like having a vst in a vst.

On the other hand, I agree that its rather strange that Reason has revamped a large number of the user's bigger complaints and not added vst. It would be nice to have a vst in Reason if that's all you use, but seriously, if you really do want to go far in music production, you can't confine yourself to the one program and bitch and complain that it doesnt do everything all the other programs do. Thats the same exact reason I haven't upgrraded; they seem to have tried to copy a lot of other programs' sequencers, and in doing so lost the original charm of Reason. I loved being able to just tap enter twice to get back to the beginning of the song. Now it just opens and closes an envelope bar or something.

As for the comment about how nobody knows how audio software works, I would like to pose the question; do you? I have done my share of researching on how a lot of the back end programming works, and while not being a computer programmer myself, I sure know what goes on behind the scenes in most programs. I have, however, written many patches, many synthesizers in Reaktor and have been through so many technical forums on how music software is made, that I'm pretty sure I know more than what it sounds like you do. VST support itself, while not too taxing on the program when it isn't being used (though it does take up a fair amount from what I've looked at when I've turned off empty vst tracks in Live), once you actually add a program to the vst rack, it needs to load its own basic architecture in just to begin with, while there is also architecture going on in the host program. Basically, it wouldn't be terrible to add it in, it just wouldn't make sense to the average user when it already has a damn competent array of architecture to begin with.

Not to get off on a tangent, but what I'm trying to get to is the fact that Reason is never going to have vst, because the people they are trying to make happy and the role they're trying to fill just doesn't include vst's. Its like buying a good synthesizer, playing it for a while and then saying that it fucking needs a goddamn sampler otherwise its a piece of shit. IT doesn't fit that role and doesn't need to. Now, I'm not saying everyone needs to have the same workflow as me, or anything, but Reason is mostly used as a workhorse program or used as a sketch-pad for a majority of the people it is being sold to. That is the role it plays and I don't think it will ever go out of style.

I also don't want this to sound like an attack on Siamey, seeing as how I agree that they screwed up (in my eyes) on the new version.

[DJ SymBiotiX]

little side info, hold shift and press enter twice I think and it will take you to the beginning of the song :D

[Siamey]

lol @ "then saying that it fucking needs a goddamn sampler otherwise its a piece of shit."

cause it was funny as hell and it reminded me that i swear too much when i get all angsty when i post complaints.

I agree with that though


by the way AS, just cause they have 10 people doesnt mean its a small company. Reason is a very well selling product and since its not a physical thing (besides the packaging), there is no ceiling on their income. I would have a heard time believing that they couldnt afford to rewrite the core correctly (if it needed that).

[anosou]

by the way AS, just cause they have 10 people doesnt mean its a small company. Reason is a very well selling product and since its not a physical thing (besides the packaging), there is no ceiling on their income. I would have a heard time believing that they couldnt afford to rewrite the core correctly (if it needed that).

Yeah, you're right about that. Though Reason is one of the most pirated products out there because it's so easy to crack. But you're probably right that they could affor to rewrite the core, but it's still a tedious task they wouldn't want to spend their manpower on :) That was what I meant even though I was unclear.

[Siamey]

Yea, thats the point Im trying to get accross is that its not out of their reach, its just not in their agenda, and thats what my problem is with them.

[Knives]

The project manager behind Reason 4 already said not to expect VSTI or audio-in support any time soon. The specific reason because this was "we don't want to become an inferior cubase [or to compete with steinberg]." Adding or not adding VSTi support and audio-in has little to do with Reason's cpu usage and stability, the main influence behind these decisions is marketing and business. They truly believe that without these components they are are securing a safer future with more loyal customers by marketing their product to a niche market. It has nothing to do with programming and everything to do marketing. Propellerheads, like all the other audio software companies, focus on making money, not DAWs.

[Siamey]

The project manager behind Reason 4 already said not to expect VSTI or audio-in support any time soon. The specific reason because this was "we don't want to become an inferior cubase [or to compete with steinberg]." Adding or not adding VSTi support and audio-in has little to do with Reason's cpu usage and stability, the main influence behind these decisions is marketing and business. They truly believe that without these components they are are securing a safer future with more loyal customers by marketing their product to a niche market. It has nothing to do with programming and everything to do marketing. Propellerheads, like all the other audio software companies, focus on making money, not DAWs.


Thank you, my point exactly

[big giant circles]

Wow, talk about ignorance. You're all idiots. Reason does in fact suck. FL is ridiculously lame. Live and Sonar make crap smell good. Cubase, Logic, Acid--if they were 50 times better, they'd still be meh. There is but one DAW for the serious composer.

And no, I'm not talking about Pro Tools.

www.biggiantcircles.com/awesome_DAW.JPG

[Siamey]

fucking oldschool

[anosou]

Wow, talk about ignorance. You're all idiots. Reason does in fact suck. FL is ridiculously lame. Live and Sonar make crap smell good. Cubase, Logic, Acid--if they were 50 times better, they'd still be meh. There is but one DAW for the serious composer.

And no, I'm not talking about Pro Tools.

www.biggiantcircles.com/awesome_DAW.JPG

BGC saves the fucking DAY :D

[KyleJCrb]

Wow, talk about ignorance. You're all idiots. Reason does in fact suck. FL is ridiculously lame. Live and Sonar make crap smell good. Cubase, Logic, Acid--if they were 50 times better, they'd still be meh. There is but one DAW for the serious composer.

And no, I'm not talking about Pro Tools.

www.biggiantcircles.com/awesome_DAW.JPG

Hey, I know how to use that one!

[Fishy]

Thats not how you maek musics.

A real man gets a blank vinyl and gouges his soul into it with a fork.

[Sir_NutS]

Reason is fine without any VSTi.

Enjoy the new (and great) sequencer.

[1makes2]

i think reason 4 is good and the sequencer makes a lot of sence... i just dont like how you still cant record into reason and still cant use any sort of vst of rtas or anyother plugin.

siamy....i understand your frustration from going to reason 4 from reason 3 but after a while everything clicks and makes a lot of sence.

anyways.. propellerhead could still improve a lot of stuff in my opinion but it works for what it does!

[Xaleph]

I know I'm digging this thing up from the dead but I thought I'd chime my two cents. I was in the beta test for Reason 4 and I even submitted enough bugs that I would have gotten a discount on Reason 4.0. I even bought it and while it was shipping I had it returned.

I've used Reason since it's first version and once 3.0 was released, I was already looking on switching - and it's not because Reason 'sucks', it's because I felt limited by Reason with regards to work flow, sound engineering, and synth creation.

The sound quality of Reason sounds great in Reason, and it sounds great when you Rewire it to other software. When you export a wav/aif file in Reason (no matter what options you use) the sound quality simply doesn't reflect what you could 'hear' when the song is played through Reason. There is a number of reasons this is the case, and I understand that the algorithms are increasingly complex with regards to making the sound 'perfect' for every user.


It was when I started getting serious about music that I realized that Reason is really for the music enthusiast - the person who really enjoys writing music but doesn't have the time to spend hours on end trying to produce quality. So what Propellerheads did was create a software that would 'do' things for you so you wouldn't have to worry about it - with regards to sound engineering and synth production. Many of the VSTi's out there do the same thing. Now with Reason you CAN get awesome sound quality - but you literally have to 'trick' the software into exporting the sound you want rather than what you hear. For example, when I EQed my song bass light, the exported wav had the bass heavier and the song came out much crisper and cleaner. I felt like I was tricking the software to give me the sounds I wanted rather than producing what I could hear and monitor. This also leads me to - Reason's monitoring software is pretty lousy, compare the professional software out there that allows you to literally analyze every EQ cut of your entire song - individual tracks - and allow you to edit so that your sound comes out clean and crisp. Anyways, enough about trying to trash Reason.

So why I switched from Reason 3.0.4 to Cubase 4.1.3 instead of upgrading to Reason 4.0 - these are the main reasons:
1) Reason takes more time to create the same sound than what Cubase does. There are synths I want to spend a lot of time on, and there are sounds that I really shouldn't. I have Reaktor 5 if I want to sit around and plug in wires to ports all day and create my own synth module. I have NWBass for a really simple psybassline.

With Reason, I would take the same amount of time to create both, unless I used a preset (Sir Nuts did a great job with his combinator set - much kudos!)

2) Reason 4.0's Thor has some really neat features, but I just felt that even though you could 'build' your own synth, what other VSTi's had to offer just had higher quality.

3) Live Audio recoding, importing, editing are all missing from Reason 4.0, and I found myself using either the redrummer, NN-19, or NN-XT to play long waves. I had to literally restart the song if I wanted to hear the wave or cut it up externally.

4) Midi controllers, I have a few synths (go go Roland) at home that's been collecting dust since I got Reason. Now with Cubase, I can finally start utilizing it again.

5) The biggest reason for my switch is Third Party support. I can't submit the Xaleph Maelstrom that has additional knobs or switches - or splices the sound differently. I can't create my own sound effect plugins using my own algorithm for a randomizer. These tools just don't exist outside the reuse of already existing products. Though the combinator and thor is really nice at allowing people to 'make' something similar, you are still are limited very specifically to what those devices can or cannot provide. With VST, I can program my own software OR I can use others. Though these are side effects from not allowing VST support, the greater issue is third party support and this is why:Third party software challenges the quality of your own modules. Steinberg has to keep updating their synths or they will be left behind other VST support. VST companies generally will create better modules the host company's module, mainly due to the fact that the VST company can focus primarily on the VST and the host's main focus will always be the stability of the host. The Host, if using a standard VST interface, can anticipate the protocol (as it is standardized) and easily integrate each unit properly. Of course there is more overhead on the VST client as well as the Host (so more ram and cpu is needed) but you have the flexibility and quality desired. This is why Cubase, along with other host software, have introduced the concept of 'freezing' the track - basically creating a render of the track and then playing the wav in the place of the actual vst in order to save memory and cpu.

In Reason's case, their main focus will always be the host and not the modules. If the host fails, the modules don't matter. To them, the modules really are a liability and they won't ever try cutting edge technology. Since they have a stable unit, it would be unnecessary to really do anything else.

If Reason opened their code to allow for custom modules (not reuse, but creating what they haven't) or if they allowed some kind of plugin support, I would be still using Reason.

6) The Cubase 4.0 crossgrade version was about the same price as Full Reason 4 (non upgrade) and I felt that if I were to switch at any time, financially this was my opportunity.

Do I regret using and/or owning Reason? No, it was a great piece of software to write music, and I enjoyed the interface and experience quite a bit. I put together some songs I really love and I'm glad Propellerheads put it together. It can produce powerful sounds and can do some pretty neat things. I still plan on using it when I go on road trips (on my laptop), but my serious work will be done on Cubase.

Do I think Reason sucks? No, I just feel that it's lack of third party support doesn't create the quality control or 'checks and balances' that the company needs.

Do I think FL is the bomb? No, I used FL a few times, and I really didn't like the interface too much for very shallow reasons... like.... it really is way too fruity for me.

Does Cubase provide better tools that Reason? Well, yeah... it really does. Even the defaults are very nice.

Is Cubase perfect? No, they have a ton of problems and are also losing their user base to Sonar (ironically there are a ton of Reason converts on the Cubase forums - like there are a TON of rewire and reason discussions). Cubase 4.0 had a ton of bugs and the developers are pretty slow at addressing them - but they have updates once every 3-4 months... Note that Reason had updates like once every 2 years... I think Cubase 4.1.3 addresses some issues, and I hope they patch some of them sooner than later.

About VSTs: VST doesn't mean quality - and anyone who thinks I thought the grass was greener on the other side probably didn't know I used to use VST's in Acid Pro and Logic (pre-Apple) before I switched to Reason. VST can mean crap, and there is a lot of it out there. The VSTs now (compared to Reason 1.0 days) are incredibly better and have good customer support. I'm looking into buying some Native Instrument packages currently - and the drum machine called 'Guru' is pretty hot. VSTs can produce problems, but I don't agree it would mean lack of stability, unless the Propellerhead software developers aren't skilled enough or the current Reason architecture uses legacy code and can't handle new features - Then I would agree that it would reduce stability, if you've ever programmed VST software for fun, you'll understand what I mean that stability should not be a problem. You import a lowsy VST that crashes/lags your entire environment (ie it doesn't work). You delete the files and restart Reason - No problems. The real reason that the Reason team doesn't want the VST support is because of the competition it would create between their own developers and NI, Spectrasonics, reFX, Rob Papen, and other VST developer teams. It's easier to not have to deal with competition, especially when you are so proud of your progress..... With that said, because stability is NOT the main reason that Reason doesn't support VST and 'control' is, you will never see third party or vst support.



In conclusion - I'm pretty sad that I left Reason, I really liked the setup, the interface, even the new sequencer. Thor looked promising and I really liked the additional arpeggiator and that groove beat thingy I played with quite a bit in the beta. I just don't like the direction that Reason is heading (and has been heading) - and it's not that they've changed direction, I have changed/matured musically. Through working in several software development teams, I can see through Propellerheads much easier and I don't think they'll change in the direction that would fit my growth.


THE TLDR VERSION

Sorry Reason, It's not you.... it's me...

We've just... grown apart...

I think we can still 'just' be friends! ... right?

[V___]

^ Well written commentary. Cheers Xaleph!

[avaris]

Yeah that was a good post dude!

While I have only done about 2-3 songs entirely in Reason I use it in almost every song I do. For beats and rhythms it just kicks ass. Now if they only built in Recycle and put a reverse button on ReDrum.

Overall I think it's a great learning tool to help learn about mastering and production and especially the importance of signal flow in an FX chain. It's closed environment is a great place to help learn the valuable lesson of "do the best with the tools you got."

Whether it's synth sounds fit your musical style is entirely luck. Although it has TONS of awesome affordable Refills with good vintage synth sounds. The Deepflight Roland D-50 refill is mouth watering.

Allowing 3rd party devs to develop plugins for it would be just about the best thing for the program. Unless they really start getting innovative by Reason 6.0 things will start to get stale from a development standpoint.

[Arcana]

I started with Reason 2.5 and haven't ever really made substantial music with it (but I think that's due to limits of my creativity rather than any problem with the software at the moment).

I'm debating if making the shift to Reason 4 is worth it... this thread seems to have a lot more people trashing it than praising it.

[The Pezman]

Yeah, but check out how many Remixes (both here and abroad) are made with it, at least in part.

[anosou]

It's enough for me, all remixes by me are pure Reason at the moment. I have ProTools and Logic too (gonna sell my protools rig eventually since I switched career path) and will use Logic more because of some obvious reasons.
Still, I will never be as creative as I am in Reason in any other DAW and the sounds it produces is good enough for any commercial release. And if it's not, I ReWire it to get what's missing.

In any case it will always be the meat of my music.

EDIT: also, good post Xaleph. Very honest and well written.

[Sengin]

The sound quality of Reason sounds great in Reason, and it sounds great when you Rewire it to other software. When you export a wav/aif file in Reason (no matter what options you use) the sound quality simply doesn't reflect what you could 'hear' when the song is played through Reason. There is a number of reasons this is the case, and I understand that the algorithms are increasingly complex with regards to making the sound 'perfect' for every user.

Can you (or someone else) please elaborate on this? I have used Reason 3 and 4 and have not noticed any quality changes from within Reason and after exporting the song as a 24-bit 44.1KHz wave.

[The Vagrance]

I have never seen so much ignorance in a thread. AS, Knives and Fishy are the only ones that know what the hell they're talking about.

As I've mentioned many times before (and burnt-out many threads before this one with my rants), vst support in Reason is like giving a $3 hooker a retarded step-brother named Warren and then spot-welding him to her face. Its completely un-necessary and not what Reason is used for. Reason is meant to be STAND ALONE! That means everything you could ever want can be used in Reason to some extent. The ReWire support is for when you want another kind of effect or synthesizer added to the output of Reason. That is also why Reason only takes up as many cpu cycles as a softsynth; because its meant to be the end-all softsynth/sampler module.

However, I do agree that the new sequencer in Reason is the sole reason (no pun intended) I haven't upgraded to R4 yet. If they gave the term "fucktardspacklestation with an anus-colored coat of un-needed fluff-paint" a definition, it would be that sequencer. Its the bastardized version of every other sequencer on the market vomited into one shitty envelope. And speaking of envelopes, its impossible to automate a damn envelope without making about 14 mouse clicks to get you there. Needless to say, I really do hate the new sequencer; and for that matter, I couldn't understand why everyone hated the original so strongly. You click on the track you want to edit, you click on the edit button, and then write in the little notes and automate with that straight-line tool. Its not difficult.

Anyway, not to get off on a tangent, but I suppose I may just skip this update and grab R5 when it comes out. I now use Live and love it and would highly recommend it to anyone.

Just now reading this thread and loving how pitch-perfect this describes m as well.

[tweex]

Through my experience with Reason, Logic, Pro Tools, Cubase, and all the others, what I've genuinely found is that Reason is a great Rewire application. It offers such versatility and open ability to do whatever you need with just a fraction of the CPU power needed. While the the default sample libraries with R4 are good, they don't match up to Stylus RMX, EWQLSO, B3, etc. Using Reason a LOT as a rewire slave has been one of the most rewarding situations to have put myself in recently.

Is Reason a good stand alone product? Yes, no question. It can easily produce professional quality sound by ONLY using it. But BT said it best in an interview when he said that "by using other products and programs, you keep your mind thinking outside of the box." No arguments and I encourage EVERY musician who makes music electronically to adopt this thinking. You will be utterly amazed by how much your music quality will change!

[stormfrontrecords]

The sequencer in 4 is a little awkward. I have been using it for 2 weeks and still have a lit of
issues, such as quantizer now quantizing properly. I hate have to double click within and
grouped section in order to add new notes. Maybe, one day all these problems will become
a thing of the past.

Reason almost has every thing I need to compose. I have an amazing orchestral library that
sounds good, but not great. I am sure most of you know about the Miroslav reason refill. Don't
get me wrong, you can get great results with Miroslav, but it does not come near the quality
of the East/West orchestral sounds. I do wish Reason would allow virtual instrument plugins.
Then, it could do it all as a stand alone, and not re-wired.

Other than that, Reason is by far my favorite program to compose in. For everything else, I
leave it to Pro-Tools.

[Salluz]

I don't know... when I use a program, I understand it in 30 min - 2 hours, regardless of complication. Well, I'll check out the demo first.

[-RK-]

Reason 4 is really the only version I do like.

I mean, i pretty much just use it as a big plug-in for FL Studio or Logic, but it's still quite useful.

[DwREK]

Reason Is Not A VST Host! It is an instrument/FX rack & a sequencer! That is all! ReWire it as it should be if you got the virtual resources & use all the VST your heart can handle! Let those who need to reserve some cpu have their basic-wicked Reason rack as is. Seems to me your biggest problem is that you are having a hard time telling your songs apart. I use song titles!
There is software out there that already does what you expect reason to do with out focusing on mic tracking. That market is not open for Reason! Logic or Ableton will fix you up with all your virtual composing needs! My Reason 4 rack sits beautifully, right next to my virtual piano, my virtual drum-sets, my virtual guitar rig (GO NI) & a plethora of synths/samplers in my Ableton Live studio! I hardly ever even pull the "clanky-slave" out any more!

[DJ SymBiotiX]

umm... the last post was on september 3rd 2008... I think this convo was already done with way back then.

[Hy Bound]

I'd just like to say, I have spent a lot of time with Reason the past couple weeks and I have completely changed my mind about it.

I've been known to poo on Reason's quality of sounds. And while I hold the same opinion about the samples, the synths and other such pieces of the program are actually quite incredible. Its amazing what a bit of know-how on my part can do.

I'll try and post a song or two in the near future that I've created exclusively with Reason's sounds

[Siamey]

Holy cow! What an immature asshole I was, even less than 2 years ago! Reading this thread totally blows my mind!

UPDATE: I love Reason 4 now. I use almost everything they added in 4 and I love it.

Personality Update: I am no longer this annoying sack of shit, probably because I have been born again in the eyes of our glorious lord and savior Jesus Christ. All hail Jesus Christ. Let his light cleanse us of sin and

[Arcana]

Holy cow! What an immature asshole I was, even less than 2 years ago! Reading this thread totally blows my mind!

UPDATE: I love Reason 4 now. I use almost everything they added in 4 and I love it.

Personality Update: I am no longer this annoying sack of shit, probably because I have been born again in the eyes of our glorious lord and savior Jesus Christ. All hail Jesus Christ. Let his light cleanse us of sin and

Okay are you being serious? One reason why I didn't go for Reason 4 is partly because of your review, so if you've actually changed your mind I'd be interested in hearing about it.

[Siamey]

Thor rocks my socks, plus the new sequencer is pretty cool once you get used to it. Sorry for injecting you with shit oppinions

[avaris]

Thor rocks my socks, plus the new sequencer is pretty cool once you get used to it. Sorry for injecting you with shit oppinions

Yaaaaaa damn right :)

http://www.tindeck.com/listen/cwqv

(although that was done in Record) :shock:

[Gario]

Stick around for the next couple months and watch me completely start to love R4 or some shit :/ LOWL

UPDATE: I love Reason 4 now. I use almost everything they added in 4 and I love it.Insert irony here. I'm still stuck with Reason 3.0, though... sadness.

[WillRock]

Tbh, I can see where you are coming from with that first review. I think the problem with reason 4 is that its a big change to reason 3, in terms of the sequencer mostly. I actually had several people I know warning me away from it when it first came out and they swear by it now :P

I have to say with reason 4, give it a chance, you might not like the changes at first but it grows on you.

That's come about a year or 2 too late, but judging from gario's post, there are people have haven't upgraded yet who might plan on it.

[Brandon Strader]

Getting pissed about updates is a pretty common thing I think. I've never used Reason so I'm not referencing that at all. But I know upgrading from Audition 1.5 to version 3.0 in the past was a huge change for me. Upgrading from FL 7 to 9 is a big change. Some stuff is completely different, and some things seem needlessly complicated. But in the end, you just mess with it a while, and you learn to love it and appreciate the new features.

[wesl]

Seriously if you want to use say Sytrus in Reason for example. Find or create a nice sound in Sytrus. Play 7 notes all up and down the ranges. Just press and hold. Then rip to seperate Wav's each of the 7 notes. Open up Reason and the NN-XT. Expand the NN-XT. Click on the folder icon to where you can select wav files to drop into the NN-XT. Highlight the 7 notes you just made from Sytrus. Then highlight all 7 Wavs in the NN-XT's browser right click and there is an option to detect the pitch of the notes and then map them across the keyboard in order.

Frankly a middle ground to end this whole thing would be to add Audio In and Midi Out. Then Reason could act as a Rewire Host. Or act as an FX unit when in slave mode.

I like the way you think. And it looks like R5 has got audio in with a nifty autotune type thing. It's called Neptune...I'm sort of disappointed that it's not called ReTune xD

I think most people probably hated R4 at first. I basically went from Garage Band and Orion Platinum to R4 and I thought it was the biggest piece of bullshit I ever saw. But after crunching some deadlines for some projects in my Music Tech class, I realized, "Wow...Reason is fucking awesome!" And now I can sketch songs out everyday, quickly AND easily.

It just takes some time. And Reason+Live=God.