OCR Genres!

[Joshua Morse]

Hey all,

Lately I've been immersing myself in a number of web development projects. One of said projects includes something called OCR Genres. In short, I plan for it to be a supplemental website to OCR, providing a new way of searching for mixes: via genre. I've seen some demand for people wanting remixes to be categorized by genre, so here's your chance!

I need your help! To explain, OCR Tags allows for users to tag their favorite remixes via genre and elements. I still have a quite a bit to work on, but you can check out the site right here (http://ocrtags.jmflava.com). Users can register and start tagging immediately.

I'd also like to welcome any questions / comments anyone has as I'm trying to build up an FAQ for the website. So let me have it!

[GeckoYamori]

This is bound to degenerate into people whining about mislabeling and nitpicking between thousands of different subgenres.

[atmuh]

everything is untz

[Skrypnyk]

This is bound to degenerate into people whining about mislabeling and nitpicking between thousands of different subgenres.

I concur!

However, I approve this idea.

[MechaFone]

Fascinating! I've always wanted to see these songs listed by genre.

[Joshua Morse]

This is bound to degenerate into people whining about mislabeling and nitpicking between thousands of different subgenres.

As long as the whining is constructive and well-founded, there shouldn't be any problems.

[Radiowar]

I think this is a great idea

[Tensei]

I hate to parrot the OCR policy here, but wasn't the genre search something that was left out on purpose? If you add a feature that allows you to search by genre, you'll obviously only look for mixes from genres you know you enjoy, so you will probably miss out on a lot.

What I like about OCR is that, apart from the whole remixing-of-game-music-business, an extremely wide range of musical genres is represented on this site, and it really opened up my musical taste for genres ranging from IDM to Acid Jazz. If there was a search by genre, I would have searched for Metal and be done with it, which is why I'm grateful for the lack of a search by genre, because it really broadened my musical taste. This is why I'm not really sure about the usefulness of this feature :/

[Radiowar]

If you add a feature that allows you to search by genre, you'll obviously only look for mixes from genres you know you enjoy

that assumes that people enjoy only one or a few genres. also that same argument could be used for categorizing remixes by game, original composer, etc.

the way I see it it's the exact opposite. categorizing remixes only makes them more accessible. the way it is right now all the remixes I have are either from games I am familiar with or remixers I know I like, not including the ones I have found by pure chance. I don't really have time to go one by one through the archive so any means of categorizing the music is helpful.

[Skrypnyk]

that assumes that people enjoy only one or a few genres. also that same argument could be used for categorizing remixes by game, original composer, etc.

the way I see it it's the exact opposite. categorizing remixes only makes them more accessible. the way it is right now all the remixes I have are either from games I am familiar with or remixers I know I like, not including the ones I have found by pure chance. I don't really have time to go one by one through the archive so any means of categorizing the music is helpful.

my windar is off the chart!!

[dPaladin]

I hate to parrot the OCR policy here, but wasn't the genre search something that was left out on purpose? If you add a feature that allows you to search by genre, you'll obviously only look for mixes from genres you know you enjoy, so you will probably miss out on a lot.
You're correct.

Buuuuuuuuut, I for one would like to find what few jazz and rock mixes there are, since so many OCRemixes fall into the "synthesized melody, a new bassline, more drums, and strings added for no reason" genre.

brunT

[Blue Magic]

What I like about OCR is that, apart from the whole remixing-of-game-music-business, an extremely wide range of musical genres is represented on this site, and it really opened up my musical taste for genres ranging from IDM to Acid Jazz. If there was a search by genre, I would have searched for Metal and be done with it, which is why I'm grateful for the lack of a search by genre, because it really broadened my musical taste. This is why I'm not really sure about the usefulness of this feature :/

Have to agree with Tensei here. Just as he said, if there was a "search by genre" feature, I probably would not have even listened to more than half of the songs in my 2000+ mp3 collection. I love the idea, but I have a feeling that it will cause people to loose out on some really great music out there.

And not to mention, none of my songs will fit properly in a specific genre.:tomatoface: Also, there will be more songs in the "Other" genre than anywhere else.

[DarkeSword]

Not a fan of using 'genre' but it's nice to see someone implementing a way to tag OC ReMixes.

[FiremanJoe]

Well for all the haters out there, keep in mind that it's a 'supplement'. It's not changing the actual OCR site or it's policies. If you like it, use it. If not, nobody's making you even look at it.
I for one would like to see it, as I'm sure it will reduce threads on the forum asking for particular kinds of mixes. (How many times have we seen "Mixes with vocals/Orchestral mixes/etc?)
The more community resources the better, I say.

[Shadow Wolf]

I support this idea, number one because it's a good idea, and number two because it's not actually influencing the site.

As far as people searching by genre, how far they get into OCR is a personal thing. When I first came here in June 2002, I was looking very specifically for Super Metroid Mixes for a Powerpoint slide show I was doing. I came back in October 2002 looking for some Mario 64 Mixes, and downloaded Sunken Suite. I loved it, so I downloaded a BUNCH of DJPretzel mixes, as well as a lot of Protricity. After picking and choosing mixes/games for a few months, I finally began downloading every mix posted to OCR beginning in mid 2003, and still do to this day.

The point is I came in with very specific ideas about what games and artists I wanted to hear, branched off from there, and it's turned into a 6 year musical adventure. I don't see how it would be different if I'd come in with a specific genre in mind instead.

[PassivePretentiousness]

I've always hoped someone would put in the time to do this.

Have you considered incorporating a rating system as well? I have a few ideas of how to avoid the problems that plague other sites that have attempted to do so and would be reasonably easy to put in place.

[abg]

Giving users an easy way to find remixes they'll like can only be seen as a good thing. That said, I like your site and I think OCR should sponsor it somehow (not that I have any pull around here). If a new user can log on and find a remix in a genre they like right away, they're more likely to stick around looking for more remixes.

[dPaladin]

I've always hoped someone would put in the time to do this.

Have you considered incorporating a rating system as well? I have a few ideas of how to avoid the problems that plague other sites that have attempted to do so and would be reasonably easy to put in place.
A rating system would be fantastic. Wait, I've got a better idea. Let users post whatever they want and we can all comment on it!

(happynewyears)

[OverCoat]

Have you considered incorporating a rating system as well?

This new site seems kind of like subterfuge, but IMO it should be there for the people who want all the sorting methods that DJP's ideals won't allow for :)

[Cyan_Ide]

Mmmmm.....Wordpress. Genre categories and artist tags. I like it.

[atmuh]

rating system

go to ormgas

[LuigiFan]

Funny I was just talking about this last night.

Ever since I've been here I've always wanted there to be a search by genre feature. However, at first I saw some problems, the main one being it would be a heck of a lot of work for djpretzel to go back and label every single mix as a specific genre, plus there would be ReMixers who aren't around anymore and/or don't want to classify their ReMixes as a specific genre. However, I think we could make it work. I know I would be a willing volunteer to help with this, and we could have an "Unspecified" category for those who can't specify/don't want to.

People are saying that classifying by genre will limit people to searching only for their favorite genres. While this is true in some cases, it won't be for all, and I really think if they listen to enough of their favorite genre they'll think, "Well, maybe this whole website is great!" and will search for others. That's what I did. :)

I fully support this idea and hope others do as well.

[PassivePretentiousness]

go to ormgas
ormgas's system is very naive and no one has been there in about five years.

[ella guro]

I don't know if any other remixers feel this way about their stuff, but I personally object to the classification of any of my mixes under a specific genre. A lot of the reason I make music is to get a sound I find interesting or unusual, the purpose being to not conform to the rules of any set genre. The idea of someone else putting a label on it makes me really uncomfortable and seems like it might encourage more remixers to conform to a specific genre instead of developing their own ideas, which I think is very counterproductive.

I know this thing is just a supplement to make it easier for listeners, but I still find it unsettling as an artist and therefore I can't say that support it at all.

[Joshua Morse]

Well for all the haters out there, keep in mind that it's a 'supplement'. It's not changing the actual OCR site or it's policies. If you like it, use it. If not, nobody's making you even look at it.
I for one would like to see it, as I'm sure it will reduce threads on the forum asking for particular kinds of mixes. (How many times have we seen "Mixes with vocals/Orchestral mixes/etc?) The more community resources the better, I say.

Hit the nail on the head!

Have you considered incorporating a rating system as well?

No. I don't feel a rating system would be beneficial or even work in this community. I feel that it would promote cliques and elitism. I also feel that people's personal feelings would get in the way of a majority of the ratings (I.E. I don't like this remixer as a person therefore I don't like this remixer's arrangements so I'll give them all a low rating).

I don't know if any other remixers feel this way about their stuff, but I personally object to the classification of any of my mixes under a specific genre. A lot of the reason I make music is to get a sound I find interesting or unusual, the purpose being to not conform to the rules of any set genre. The idea of someone else putting a label on it makes me really uncomfortable and seems like it might encourage more remixers to conform to a specific genre instead of developing their own ideas, which I think is very counterproductive.

I know this thing is just a supplement to make it easier for listeners, but I still find it unsettling as an artist and therefore I can't say that support it at all.

Understandable. As a musician, if I voiced my discontent about my arrangements being used in a project I didn't agree with or support, I would expect the person running the project to respect my wishes. So I can exclude your remixes from the site if you don't want them to be included. The same goes for any other remixer who feels this way.

[Kanthos]

Giving users an easy way to find remixes they'll like can only be seen as a good thing.

I disagree. I've expanded my musical tastes a great deal since first coming to OCRemix. I wouldn't have, for example, tried any of zircon's non-remix music if I hadn't heard and liked his remixes first, despite none of them being able to be classified in any genre I'd have been interested in previously.

The biggest problem with both genres and ratings is that they act as a negative filter, and I suspect more people will see it this way than ans a positive filter. How many people are likely to search for, say, jazz remixes but will actually end up listening to all of them? Perhaps for those who have been around the community long enough to hear all the mixes, being able to filter out songs that aren't of a specific genre might be great if you're only in a mood to hear jazz on a given day, but for someone who's relatively new to the site, I strongly suspect the tendency will be to say "I like jazz, let me see what OCRemix has", which is fine on its own, but when it's not accompanied by a followup "now that I've heard all the jazz, I'll listen to everything else too", listeners miss out on a lot that they might like if they were to hear it. I'd call this a bad thing.

And even listening to music you don't like once or twice is still good, as it reinforces your idea of what you do like. Exposure to all kinds of music isn't a bad thing, and genres will likely limit that for most new listeners.

[LuigiFan]

And even listening to music you don't like once or twice is still good, as it reinforces your idea of what you do like. Exposure to all kinds of music isn't a bad thing, and genres will likely limit that for most new listeners.

On the flip side of that, what if a new person came here, having absolutely no previous experience with OCR, and clicks on a ReMix. Well, it happens to be of a genre they don't like. This immediately makes their first impression a bad one. They might be a little more open minded, but chances are they won't stick around for much longer. However, if they were able to search for a particular genre that they would like, and they found a great one, then they'd be more likely to stick around, and eventually they'd probably branch out.

If you really think about it, people are not going to stop coming once they've exhausted every jazz ReMix on the site. They'll keep coming back and seeing other people react to other genres, which will spark the idea that hey, maybe they'll check them out. Classification by genre is going to do way more good than harm.

[DarkeSword]

I disagree. I've expanded my musical tastes a great deal since first coming to OCRemix. I wouldn't have, for example, tried any of zircon's non-remix music if I hadn't heard and liked his remixes first, despite none of them being able to be classified in any genre I'd have been interested in previously.

The biggest problem with both genres and ratings is that they act as a negative filter, and I suspect more people will see it this way than ans a positive filter. How many people are likely to search for, say, jazz remixes but will actually end up listening to all of them? Perhaps for those who have been around the community long enough to hear all the mixes, being able to filter out songs that aren't of a specific genre might be great if you're only in a mood to hear jazz on a given day, but for someone who's relatively new to the site, I strongly suspect the tendency will be to say "I like jazz, let me see what OCRemix has", which is fine on its own, but when it's not accompanied by a followup "now that I've heard all the jazz, I'll listen to everything else too", listeners miss out on a lot that they might like if they were to hear it. I'd call this a bad thing.

And even listening to music you don't like once or twice is still good, as it reinforces your idea of what you do like. Exposure to all kinds of music isn't a bad thing, and genres will likely limit that for most new listeners.

Which is exactly why we don't do it here.

But having an outside tool that we can mention when the question comes up is nice to have, because the question DOES come up (vocal mixes, piano mixes, etc. etc.).

Personally I'd prefer it if the word genre wasn't used, as it implies classification, rather than description. I think something like OCR Tagged would be better, because the term tag implies limitless descriptors, rather than pidgeon-holed classification. That way we can tag stuff with like "violins" or "4-on-the-floor" instead of "Orchestral" and "Techno."

But hey, I'm not programming it, so whatev.:tomatoface:

[abg]

I see where you're coming from, Kanthos, but please hear me out. From the looks of this thread (and others I've read) a lot of people came here looking for remixes of songs from a certain game, and after exhausting what OCR had to offer for that game, were satisfied and done with this site. But then later, they came back, because they were curious what else OCR had to offer. Now, if stories like that are actually commonplace, that would imply that 1) New users come here looking for something specific that they think they'll like, and 2) Once they hear some remixes they like, they're more likely to be repeat users.
So, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that a new user might, instead of coming here looking for a remix from a specific game, come looking for a genre specific remix. Now, as it is right now on OCR in particular, if you want to find a remix that fits into a genre you like, you have to read djP's paragraph or two of text and figure it out for yourself. That's asking a lot when you just want to know "does it go unts?"
Now, the way I always figured the internet was meant to work, the user is supposed to be directed as quickly as possible to content they want. But what I'm seeing here is resistance to that. Actually, what I'm seeing from most people who are neg on the genres is the desire to force the user's hand, to tell them "Listen to everything!" But you can't do that! At least, not effectively. The user is going to do whatever they want, and if they end up listening to a remix they don't like, they're suddenly pretty likely to decide "This website is a waste of my time", instead of "Hey, this track was cool, I should see what else this site has to offer."

I guess I'm saying that, for the sake of new users, genres should be built in to OCR (which I realize probably ain't gonna happen), but as for the OCR Genres page/resource, I think it's a great idea :)

[Radiowar]

The biggest problem with games is that they act as a negative filter, and I suspect more people will see it this way than ans a positive filter. How many people are likely to search for, say, Zelda remixes but will actually end up listening to all of them? Perhaps for those who have been around the community long enough to hear all the mixes, being able to filter out songs that aren't of a specific genre might be great if you're only in a mood to hear Zelda on a given day, but for someone who's relatively new to the site, I strongly suspect the tendency will be to say "I like Zelda, let me see what OCRemix has", which is fine on its own, but when it's not accompanied by a followup "now that I've heard all the Zelda, I'll listen to everything else too", listeners miss out on a lot that they might like if they were to hear it. I'd call this a bad thing...........

[LuigiFan]

I see where you're coming from, Kanthos, but please hear me out. From the looks of this thread (and others I've read) a lot of people came here looking for remixes of songs from a certain game, and after exhausting what OCR had to offer for that game, were satisfied and done with this site. But then later, they came back, because they were curious what else OCR had to offer. Now, if stories like that are actually commonplace, that would imply that 1) New users come here looking for something specific that they think they'll like, and 2) Once they hear some remixes they like, they're more likely to be repeat users.
So, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that a new user might, instead of coming here looking for a remix from a specific game, come looking for a genre specific remix. Now, as it is right now on OCR in particular, if you want to find a remix that fits into a genre you like, you have to read djP's paragraph or two of text and figure it out for yourself. That's asking a lot when you just want to know "does it go unts?"
Now, the way I always figured the internet was meant to work, the user is supposed to be directed as quickly as possible to content they want. But what I'm seeing here is resistance to that. Actually, what I'm seeing from most people who are neg on the genres is the desire to force the user's hand, to tell them "Listen to everything!" But you can't do that! At least, not effectively. The user is going to do whatever they want, and if they end up listening to a remix they don't like, they're suddenly pretty likely to decide "This website is a waste of my time", instead of "Hey, this track was cool, I should see what else this site has to offer."

I guess I'm saying that, for the sake of new users, genres should be built in to OCR (which I realize probably ain't gonna happen), but as for the OCR Genres page/resource, I think it's a great idea :)

This post is WIN!

[Kanthos]

Fair enough. I'm not saying that this shouldn't be done, especially as a third-party thing (although I do especially like darkesword's idea of making it a generic tagging system as opposed to something specifically indicating genre; if nothing else, it's more useful that way with not significantly more coding). I was, however, saying that it's not exactly accurate to say that it's *only* a good thing :)

[Joshua Morse]

Personally I'd prefer it if the word genre wasn't used, as it implies classification, rather than description. I think something like OCR Tagged would be better, because the term tag implies limitless descriptors, rather than pidgeon-holed classification. That way we can tag stuff with like "violins" or "4-on-the-floor" instead of "Orchestral" and "Techno."

I've been in the process of developing some stuff that meets you halfway on this. I previously had the thought of changing the name to OCR Tags, which I plan on doing in the near future. As of right now, I'm going to keep the genres, however, I've implemented an 'additional elements' feature with tag options like 'live guitar', 'live vocals', etc.

On a side note, I've given users who've registered (http://ocrgenres.jmflava.com/wp-login.php?action=register) the ability to tag remixes themselves.

[Skummel Maske]

That's pretty nifty. I'd love to be able to search for e.g. guitar-driven tracks to see how others have solved x, arranged the instruments against each others, or just to explore the different users' guitar sounds.

[Imagist]

I really like the idea of tags, even in the context of genres. Since pretty much no song ever fits squarely into one genre, as the epitomal and exclusive example of said genre, it would make sense to allow people to tag songs with multiple genres, and that end users could then come to expect that each song has some elements of each genre within it. I think if you want to compromise the ideas of genres and tags, that would be the way to do it.

[Joshua Morse]

I really like the idea of tags, even in the context of genres. Since pretty much no song ever fits squarely into one genre, as the epitomal and exclusive example of said genre, it would make sense to allow people to tag songs with multiple genres, and that end users could then come to expect that each song has some elements of each genre within it. I think if you want to compromise the ideas of genres and tags, that would be the way to do it.

Agreed. However, this project is going to take forever to go anywhere if I'm the only one tagging mixes! So if any of you support this idea, don't hesitate to start tagging!