Is 2D platforming dead?

[Voltrox747]

Just want your thoughts on the matter. It seems to me that most of the great platformers of the snes era have gone downhill in quality, especially play control, and others are dead altogether (I hear nintendo won't be making another 2D metroid). For me, kirby has been a big disappointment, since the main reason I liked superstar was that you had a good variety of moves for most of the powers, and the newer games took many of those out and dumbed them down a bit. Megaman Zero also seems to be a poor replacement for the X series, though I'll admit that many of the bosses were much harder. The X series itself is also much worse after going 3D. What do you think of newer games compared to their older counterparts?

[OverCoat]

yes, at least until Cave Story 2 comes out

[DrumUltimA]

yes, at least until Cave Story 2 comes out

Quoted For Emphasis

[Antipode]

Some games will never outgrow their roots. Just look at mario galaxy for instance - there are many points in that where the perspective shifts to side-scrolling and you play it just like a classic mario game. Plus, New Super Mario Bros. was incredibly successful so I don't think they'll just ignore that - they'll probably make more.

As for Metroid, I don't think the 2d games are over. The Prime series is finished and Retro is moving on, and I definitely don't think Nintendo will attempt to create a Prime-like FPA without Retro's help simply because the experience would be very different (and simply because I don't think Hunters-like games are going to completely hold up the series). I don't personally think Nintendo will abandon the side-scrolling metroid format that was so popular even through like 2004 or whenever Zero Mission was. It was a successful format that they left behind only because Retro was making the popular Prime games at the time. Don't be at all surprised if you hear something about this rumored Metroid Dread within the year.

I don't know about many other franchises (oh, Contra 4 comes to mind, and the new Sonic Rush games), but I don't think side-scrollers are dead. Perhaps you'll only see them rarely, but they were so popular that I'm sure they won't be left behind.

[zircon]

No, it's not dead... primarily because of the GBA & DS. Megaman ZX is excellent overall, and I've heard Advent is even better. Castlevania games have been going very strong for the last 5 DS/GBA games or so. While I haven't played them, the new Sonic games for GBA/DS are supposedly good as well. Plus, Contra 4!

I don't know if you count this, but XBox Live and the Wii's Virtual Console have revived interest in many oldschool games too.

[AMT]

I'll agree that 2D gaming is in a bit of a decline, but it's by no means dead. The Megaman Zero series was fantastic, and ZX seems to be continuing a similar level of quality. I really really hope there's another 2D Metroid though, because the 3D ones just aren't the same. Even so, there are still some great 2D games that have been coming out, like Contra 4, the DS Castlevanias, and that one Chrono Trigger looking RPG, for example. Sure, there could definitely be more, but it's something.

[BardicKnowledge]

Megaman ZX Advent was pretty good, as was the (slightly old now) Castlevania duo for DS (heh). Kirby Squeak Squad's gimmick of combining powers was pretty cool (I really enjoyed ice bombs), but I agree that we need large movesets in a Kirby game.

I see 2-d platforming re-emerging via WiiWare and Xbox Live Arcade -- or at least, I'd like to.

EDIT: Great minds think alike, eh?

[zircon]

Guys, just remember we're talking about 2D platforming - not 2D gaming. 2D gaming is unquestionably thriving, especially with the flood of casual games out there.

[1337 1]

While ever flash, handhelds and the like exist, as well as open source and other programs (things like "Game Maker" come to mind) exist, no. There are so many platforms that make extensive use of the genre, especially to appeal to the casual gamer.

Maybe on the console it might be dead, but no way in hell is it dead outright.

[Voltrox747]

good to hear about the metroid series, I thought they were going to stick with the prime style games from now on. I haven't tried the ZX games yet, mostly from my disappointment with zero. It felt like you couldn't dash as quickly as in the X games (though this was probably because of the smaller screen) and the extra weapons he got were mostly useless. I miss the armor upgrades from X, especially the ninja armor in X6. I also loved how Zero got extra moves instead of selectable weapons, giving him more of a smash bros feel. I'll agree that contra is still going strong, along with the advance and DS castlevanias (though collecting souls takes way too long). Anyone miss mischief makers?
Now THAT was some fun play control.

[Mr Jarna]

So long as Nintendo continues to make handhelds, the platforming genre shall NEVER be allowed to die. Heck, there's always some new quirk to be added - Canvas Curse and Yoshi's Island DS are the ones that come immediately to my mind...

Also Flash games, as someone mentioned earlier. Oh, and "I Wanna Be The Guy".

[Israfel]

Oh, and "I Wanna Be The Guy".

And frankly, if I Wanna Be The Guy can't kill 2d platformers, nothing can. :D

[Triad Orion]

Personally, I think that once Mega Man Zero got its kinks worked out by its second game, that series really was a great entry into 2-D platforming. Until Zero 4, which took a couple of steps backward, in my opinion. Mega Man ZX is excellent, and Advent improves on it, even if my opinion of Model A is much lower than that of Model ZX or even Model X.

Sonic Rush, New Super Mario, and the Symphony of the Night style Castlevanias have also proven to be supremely addictive and lasting. Also, Dracula X Chronicles on the PSP sticks out as Old-School 2-D platforming still surviving. The remake of Rondo of Blood is stupidly hard as Richter but extremely satisfying at the same time. I love it.

So no, I don't think the genre is dying, nor do I think it's in any sort of decline in quality. I look forward to more of these games with time.

[Walrii]

2D Platforming isn't dead, and I don't think it'll die (like adventure games kind of have), but it certainly is being replaced. Let's face it, people aren't interested in how 2D graphics and gameplay when we have such amazing 3D technology.

2D graphics will always have something special that 3D graphics never can because they can be beautifully hand drawn and animated. 2D graphics are art but 3D graphics are just graphics. Yes, some games look pretty beautiful but it isn't the same.

We all know the Playstation 3 and XBOX 360 (and even the Wii) are capable of some SUPERB 3D graphcis. I sometimes wonder what things would be like if they used that processing power to create truly beautiful 2D games that looked like living paintings.


Also, even if 2D platformers aren't as common today, people still like to mess around with the old ones (which are still great fun): http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1797226

[megadave]

It's not dead, but I think there should be way more 2D side-scrolling and platforming games on home consoles. Viewtiful Joe, Odin Sphere, Alien Hominid, and Super Paper Mario are all great. Back around 12 years ago, when everything went 3D, developers and gamers just assumed that the natural transition for everything should be 3D, which is wrong. A lot of the attempted 3D revivals of games failed because those games were never meant for 3D in the first place.

Old school 2D gaming + new technology = Fun. By the way, I am so getting the Vanillaware Wii game / Odin Sphere sequel.

[Vidilian]

Who'd love for a new 2D Metroid to be announced? Not for the DS though, the Wii. Obviously they'd be able to go all out with the graphics. Maybe even make the graphics 3D but gamplay 2d like Smash brothers.

I agree about the Megaman Zero series being great. Zero's a much cooler character than Megaman ever was. Plus the art for that game was incredible.

[shikigami]

no, and i dont think it ever will be, since its far superior to anything 3D.

Who'd love for a new 2D Metroid to be announced?

I certainly would.

[megadave]

Zero's a much cooler character than Megaman ever was.

Bull shit.

[DeepChild]

I'd have to say 2D platforming is alive and well. I'd argue it is in large part due to the success of the handheld market. The DS has been a haven for quality 2D platforming releases, many of which have been mentioned in this thread already. I think Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin deserves special mention, as I've enjoyed every bit of that game from the graphics to the gameplay. Oh, and the soundtrack is spectacular.

I'd love to see a new 2D metroid on the Wii (sans motion controls, I want old school), but I'd be just as pleased with a DS release as it has proven a very capable system (sans touch controls, I want old school dangit!).

[The Author]

I don't know if you've seen these 2-D platformers for PC that use a keyboard and mouse setup?

You know, you use WASD to move, and you aim the gun using the mouse.

I see that as the future of Metroid on the Wii.

[jayc4life]

I don't know if you've seen these 2-D platformers for PC that use a keyboard and mouse setup?

You know, you use WASD to move, and you aim the gun using the mouse.

I see that as the future of Metroid on the Wii.
Agreed, I seen this method used on a flash version of Portal (which is brilliant I must say) and Stickman Sam (possibly a parody of Serious Sam using stickmen?) and both of these employ that control scheme rather well. Wouldn't be a bad idea for Metroid.

[Vidilian]

Yeah, great idea for the Metroid control scheme there.

Speaking of Nintendo franchises that could return to their 2D platforming roots, Zelda could be a candidate.

I played Adventure of Link a while back and it was better than I thought it would be (too damn hard though).
For the new one hey could basically just rip the controls and model for Link in Smash brothers (if it was a sequel to Twilight princess) but the B moves would be interchangeable depending on what items you've got equipped. I think it would help out the franchise a lot since its definately gettin a little stale. Just an idea.

[Ramaniscence]

There's a LOT of 2D platforming in Mario Galaxy. Where were you guys for that?

[DarkeSword]

I've seen a few games try to implement it and to be honest, it was really confusing controlling a guy and aiming a reticle at the same time.

[Voltrox747]

A few of you have mentioned games that use 3D graphics for 2D gameplay. Personally I think this is a bad idea for the most part. In many cases, such as the new super mario bros, the 3D graphics look much worse than good 2D sprites would and did. Also, the 3D graphics tend to make it more difficult to differentiate between background objects, foreground objects, enemy fire, and whatever else is on the screen. I'm sure those of you who have played the newer contra games or space shooters have noticed this. Even some games that are not viewed from the side can look much better with well drawn sprites than 3D models. Final Fantasy Tactics, Disgaea, and many other Atlus games are good examples. Anyone else agree?

[DeepChild]

...Even some games that are not viewed from the side can look much better with well drawn sprites than 3D models. Final Fantasy Tactics, Disgaea, and many other Atlus games are good examples. Anyone else agree?

I agree completely. Sprites, in my opinion, are the best way to convey detailed characters in a "2D" scenario since the artists can focus on key elements of the character design and highlight what they think is most important to show. However, using 3D models with a fixed camera perspective to simulate 2D gameplay allows for advanced lighting and other graphical effects to be used on the character, many of which are already available and wouldn't need to be recreated. This lends some weight to the argument for 3D models from a development perspective I'd imagine.

The 3D model for Mario in New Super Mario Bros. on the DS is one such example. When he's running through a castle stage, with the lava flowing below, areas of his body glow red with the proper lighting effect, and it's actually quite nice. However, I find Sonic's model in Sonic Rush Adventure to be less impressive in 3D, and I'd like to see what a 2D sprite could have looked like. I'd even prefer the original genesis sprite over what's given, though in this case 3D was required since the gameplay actually shifts mid-play from side scrolling to 3D.

All that to say, I prefer the sprites in general, and I think games like FF Tactics make my case for me.

[BardicKnowledge]

Some good 2-d platforming in case you haven't seen it: (thanks to GeckoYamori).
http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14244

[Zup]

2D graphics aren't dead yet either-- look at Paper Mario.

[FR]

The day 2D gaming dies is the day the George W. Bush is made Space Pope*

*Futurama reference if you don't get it

[Zechs]

2D Platforming is still alive. Especially if developers produce excellent engines for the 2D games. Guilty Gear is a good example.

[Voltrox747]

Some good 2-d platforming in case you haven't seen it: (thanks to GeckoYamori).
http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14244

Bionic Commando was ok, but the lack of a jump really killed it for me. Take a look at Ninja Five-O for the advance.

[DarkeSword]

2D Platforming is still alive. Especially if developers produce excellent engines for the 2D games. Guilty Gear is a good example.

Guilty Gear isn't a platformer, and there's much more to an engine than just the graphics. :P

[HoboKa]

Yeah, great idea for the Metroid control scheme there.

Speaking of Nintendo franchises that could return to their 2D platforming roots, Zelda could be a candidate.

I played Adventure of Link a while back and it was better than I thought it would be (too damn hard though).
For the new one hey could basically just rip the controls and model for Link in Smash brothers (if it was a sequel to Twilight princess) but the B moves would be interchangeable depending on what items you've got equipped. I think it would help out the franchise a lot since its definately gettin a little stale. Just an idea.


Anything but CDI Zelda...*shiver*

[JCvgluvr]

Zero's a much cooler character than Megaman ever was.

Mega Man X = Mega Man X's Zero >>> Classic Mega Man > Mega Man Zero's Zero >>>>>>> Every other Mega Man and character associated with him.

I'd say something more on topic, buts its already been said, multiple times.

A new 2D Metroid would be amazing, no matter what system its for!

[Walrii]

To everyone who says that "2D gaming is alive and well" thanks to handhelds like the DS aren't, I think, looking at the big picture.

Sure handhelds have lots of 2D games now but 10 years from now we'll have Playstation 3 (or 2?) quality 3D on a handheld.

What then? Developers/publishers already seem preoccupied with 3D games on handhelds now, let alone in 10 years...

[Zechs]

Guilty Gear isn't a platformer, and there's much more to an engine than just the graphics. :P

I was referring to 2D games in general when I said that. Of course there is more to it. It is a 128 Bit sprite engine. There is much more to it.

[megadave]

Mega Man X = Mega Man X's Zero >>> Classic Mega Man > Mega Man Zero's Zero >>>>>>> Every other Mega Man and character associated with him. = wrong.

Yeah, Mega Man is the king.:mrgreen:

[PuRe-eViL]

WTB new 2D Sonic and Metroid games on consoles.

[CC Ricers]

I want a new New Super Mario Bros. game. The last one didn't totally satisfy me.

Patapon looks like it could be fun. But I'm not sure you consider it pure platforming. It's more like a side-scrolling strategy action game.

[Triad Orion]

WTB new 2D Sonic and Metroid games on consoles.

*Scruffy's voice* Second.

[Ramaniscence]

I want a new New Super Mario Bros. game. The last one didn't totally satisfy me.

Patapon looks like it could be fun. But I'm not sure you consider it pure platforming. It's more like a side-scrolling strategy action game.

Yea, I want a real Super Mario Bros 4, or a Super Mario World 3 that isn't Yoshi's Story (even though I love Yoshi's Story series).

I miss fire plant Mario, and cape/racoon mario, and frog mario. I WANT THEM BACK.

[The Nameless]

Yea, I want a real Super Mario Bros 4, or a Super Mario World 3 that isn't Yoshi's Story (even though I love Yoshi's Story series).

I miss fire plant Mario, and cape/racoon mario, and frog mario. I WANT THEM BACK.


racoon mario <333

[PlastikBag]

I'm surprised at how much praise the Mega Man ZX games are getting here. I usually hear people whining about them. I thought they were excellent. And 2D platforming is far from dead, check out the DS.

[Vidilian]

I want a new New Super Mario Bros. game.

But using sprites, like someone already mentioned. In fact I don't see why thay can't continue the "Mario Land" series. The ones from the original gameboy. They were fairly different to the console games and I actually preferred them in some ways. Super Mario Land is still my favourite handheld game of all time.

[PlastikBag]

To everyone who says that "2D gaming is alive and well" thanks to handhelds like the DS aren't, I think, looking at the big picture.

Sure handhelds have lots of 2D games now but 10 years from now we'll have Playstation 3 (or 2?) quality 3D on a handheld.

What then? Developers/publishers already seem preoccupied with 3D games on handhelds now, let alone in 10 years...

Actually, you're wrong there. It has nothing to do with looking at the "big picture". 2D platform gaming is alive and well right now, that's what the question was. You're just looking into the future. And while in the future, there may be less 2D platforming games, I doubt the genre will ever "die".

[Dafydd]

I have yet to play a game that plays better than Super Metroid, control wise and animation wise. Samus just looked so natural and real running around, ran and jumped with a realistic speed and responded very well to the controls. Even though aiming diagonally was a real pain in the ass, especially when jumping at the same time...

[Penfold]

I have yet to play a game that plays better than Super Metroid, control wise and animation wise.

Metroid: Zero Mission :)

In my opinion, at least, it improved on Super Metroid in those aspects.

EDIT: very cool sig, Dafydd.

[Dafydd]

Hm. I thought ZM was too ugly to compare... haha :)

And thanks!

[Lint]

It's not dead, mostly thanks to handhelds and a few nostalgia titles. Mostly, I think that 2D platforming appears to have struck some of the limits that can be offered by pure platforming. I just can't see many of the new places the genre can go, so I'm content with some minor gameplay tweaks, rehashed concepts, and reskinned levels/enemies/bosses.

[Vile]

I always thought it'd be cool if they made a new 2D Metroid on the newer consoles instead of the Primes. Of course I loved the Primes just dandy, but I figured with the nextgen consoles now, they could make a super huge, and super pretty 2D world, like super eye candies. Surely they could add all kinds of super neat elements to the 2D style world, seeing as how the new consoles aren't Super Nintendos. Anyways, just a dream I have. : >

[SwordBreaker]

It's not just 2D platforming that's dying, seems that Mario Galaxy and Ratchet are the only 3D platformers which actually have some work put into them.

Nonetheless, I don't think 2D platforming is dead quite yet. Thanks to the DS and PSP, we've been getting some pretty hardcore stuff. Yoshi's Island DS surprised the hell out of me because it's extremely challenging. New Super Mario Bros. was so much fun to play even though it's easy. Mega Man ZX kicks ass. Sonic Rush kicks ass. The Mega Man remakes for the PSP were excellent, and it's unfortunate that they didn't sell well. Lots of fans are pleased by Dracula X Chronicles as well.

I'm sure that the PSN and WiiWare services will over a lot of 2D platforming titles once they get the ball really rolling. Classic shooters and puzzlers have been revived thanks to the online services (especially Xbox LIVE which started the whole trend)...and I'm sure Nintendo's WiiWare will revive 2D platforming in some way. After all, we've just heard of the Bionic Commando remake for XBL and PSN and that's a nice start to say the least.

[Defend]

Ecco DC has the best looking 2D sections I've seen in a game, and still no one has done anything serious with that.

I don't think it's dead, but it depends on the audience you consider. It would be very, very hard to get mainstreamers to take a 2D platty seriously. I don't consider the existence of rehashed 2D platformers only on handhelds to really be all that "alive". I want to see a real, playable, interesting and surprising platformer on a full console, stretching every limit that could viably work in a 2D platformer. I think it can be done, but only because of, basically, Sonic and NiGHTS. They have 2D gameplay that isn't just about the next obstacle, and that's the kind of gameplay that needs to be considered, imo. If that's not making sense, think of Rez. Similar idea of it being about the play.

[I-n-j-i-n]

I think it's ironic that the PSP is starting to pump out a lot of good 2D games, including totally new and innovative ones like with LocoRoco and the new game from the same developer: Patapon.

Patapon blog (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2007/12/21/pata-me-pata-you-patapon-news/)

Strange how the Sony development houses has some intriguing 2D titles in the works. Ironic when a lot of their 3D titles haven't been doing too well recently.