Chrono Trigger & Zelda Remix & Medley

[xRisingForce]

Here's something I put together in two hours last night, and it's still very rough and incomplete but I wanted to get some feedback on my progress so far.

It's an R & Bish remix of Wind Scene, Lost Woods, and Great Fairy's Fountain. I have yet to add in Corridors of Time.

http://www.tindeck.com/audio/my/wnlw/600-A.D.

What do you guys think of the composition? Don't comment on the production because it's definitely not at that stage yet.

Version 2 (June 5th): http://www.tindeck.com/audio/my/gcfn/600-A.D. (http://www.tindeck.com/audio/my/zase/600-A.D)
- Added heavier reverb to piano
- Completely new drums
- Polished the bass progression under Cmaj7 to C7

[The Vagrance]

0:00
This piano sound is kinda tiny and cheap, try finding a better one. The arrangement is also fairly standard but I like your little add-ons to it.

0:30
Ok, quite a few things wrong at this point. The drums, first off, are way too pedestrian; at the very least make the kick thump into people's skulls if you're doing this genre. The bass is also lo-fi, bass samples are fairly simple to come by plus there are people on this forum who would probably be willing to help. Worst-case scenario you use a few sine waves. That said, I kinda like the arrangement, and this reminds me a bit of GT4, but not in a good way.

0:58
Just FYI, here would be the perfect place to have some jazzy vocals come in and carry this mix to extraordinary heights, but its not necessary. The strings are also too lo-fi, get new samples for them. Also, I feel that the melodies are moving too fast for the arrangement at this point, especially if this is supposed to have a laidback feel to it.

OVERALL
Ok, at the very least, get new samples for everything. Working on dynamics really wouldn't hurt either. At the moment this sounds slightly better than what you would hear on an SNES soundtrack, but only slightly. In order to give it that extra notch, you need to find better samples, and include live instruments if you can. Also, this mix has a bit of an identity crisis because it can either go down as a radio-esque R&B styled track or it can be closer to a smooth jazz thing. The drums say R&B, everything else says jazz. If you're going to go down the R&B road, make all of the melodies less chaotic - find a general hook and stick with it. If the jazz route, make the drums more acoustic feeling. In both cases I'd at the very least tone down the melodies a bit because there's a lot of activity going down with that piano for what is supposed to be a laid back track.

[Tensei]

Ouch, off the bat, piano is WAY too mechanically sequenced and thin, which shows especially during the intro. Adding some reverb generally helps to mask the weakness of the samples a bit but velocity editing and rubatos are where it's at.

Once the rest comes in, arrangement is good but there's some definite chord clashes between the right-hand piano arpeggio's and the strings. That said, the strings could do with a longer attack and a bit of release in the amp envelope, to make them a bit more expressive and realistic.

Needs to be kicked up a few notches in the percussion department as well, the 16th note hi-hat pattern doesn't work for me at all. IMO a quarter-note ride cymbal would sound great here, but a nice triplet feel for the hi-hats would work too.

It's really not long enough for me to comment on the arrangement but as of now it's mostly production issues anyway.

[Nishay]

This song is a little confusing to me. At first we got a cheap piano sounds playing (you could find a better sounding piano there) then all of a sudden we get a hip-hop thing going. This is just me, but I think that the beginning and middle are too contrasted and do not match at all.

[DrumUltimA]

I won't say too much on production, other than shave some high roll-off out of the drums, get some better samples and work with velocities a ton more--especially on the piano. Not sure how I feel about the placement of some of the staccatos in the piano part, though some of them make sense. Have you thought about some sort of electric piano, perhaps a rhodes?

In terms of arrangement, I'd like to see a slower build up. First off, I'd like to hear a less busy bass line at first (even though I love busy bass lines :D), and allow it to build up. Personally, when I'm combining different themes of similar chordal genesis, I like to let it take a bit longer, allowing for the union of the themes to be the climax. Right now thats basically the third phrase of the piece--it strikes me as too much too soon.

I like the reharmonization you used-- I think it was a-9 you landed on? I think that's cool, but I don't like how everything stops moving except for the drums. I hear what you're going for, but right now it's a bit awkward. If you're going to have the drums keep going through that, have one of your instruments play some sort of fill, weather it'd be bass or piano (personally my ear points me to bass, but I'm a bass kind of guy). You could also have the drums drop out with it, let a cymbal ring through, and then fill back into the next section.

In short I feel like what you've composed so far could easily be a summarization of a remix, and could easily be expanded into a complete work. So use your material wisely! I'm interested to hear what other ideas you have.

Good luck!

[xRisingForce]

I won't say too much on production, other than shave some high roll-off out of the drums, get some better samples and work with velocities a ton more--especially on the piano. Not sure how I feel about the placement of some of the staccatos in the piano part, though some of them make sense. Have you thought about some sort of electric piano, perhaps a rhodes?

I actually have a keyboard with weighted keys upstairs but I don't have any cords to connect them to my computer..


In terms of arrangement, I'd like to see a slower build up. First off, I'd like to hear a less busy bass line at first (even though I love busy bass lines :D), and allow it to build up. Personally, when I'm combining different themes of similar chordal genesis, I like to let it take a bit longer, allowing for the union of the themes to be the climax.

Did you notice that the first part is in halftime? The song is arranged at 140 bpm, so the "Chorus" of Wind Scene plays comparatively twice as fast. I really want that part to hit you in the face, so to augment the increase in speed I would need in your case what would be the "fully built" bass line, right off the bat. As well as the "fully built" piano that's extremely syncopated. Basically I'm intentionally skipping most of the rising action for an intended effect, but not all of it. The climax will be as you said.

I am gonna change the bassline under the C and C7 though; it sounds terrible to me.


Right now thats basically the third phrase of the piece--it strikes me as too much too soon.

Really this arrangement as it stands shouldn't extend past Wind Scene, but I threw in Lost Woods just so you could get a gist of how it would sound.


I like the reharmonization you used-- I think it was a-9 you landed on? I think that's cool, but I don't like how everything stops moving except for the drums. I hear what you're going for, but right now it's a bit awkward. If you're going to have the drums keep going through that, have one of your instruments play some sort of fill, weather it'd be bass or piano (personally my ear points me to bass, but I'm a bass kind of guy). You could also have the drums drop out with it, let a cymbal ring through, and then fill back into the next section.

I'm not even really sure. The left hand is a maj7 but I see that the right hand adds that top ninth. Yeah as of right now I don't have a transition between the two so I just lazily let the song ring out a measure, lol. Like stated above, the flow gets disjointed and offset at the transition, but that's because of the half-assed way I added in Lost Woods. The bass fill idea sounds tight to me, but mostly because I love bass but because it's kicking so much ass up to that point it might be excessive. On the other hand, I'm not really sure how to approach R & B drum fills. Could you throw me some ideas?

Thanks for all the great critique!

[DrumUltimA]

I actually have a keyboard with weighted keys upstairs but I don't have any cords to connect them to my computer..

can you manually edit the velocities? Often times I'll just either draw the velocity levels in or assign numeric values.


Did you notice that the first part is in halftime? The song is arranged at 140 bpm, so the "Chorus" of Wind Scene plays comparatively twice as fast. I really want that part to hit you in the face, so to augment the increase in speed I would need in your case what would be the "fully built" bass line, right off the bat. As well as the "fully built" piano that's extremely syncopated. Basically I'm intentionally skipping most of the rising action for an intended effect, but not all of it. The climax will be as you said.

haha yes, of course I noticed the first part was in half time ;) I thought everything was fine, I knew exactly what you were going for. Still, for the RnB feel that you're writing in, the bass line is too busy this far out. The piano syncopation is great, and I'm not asking for you totally back off on the bass line. However, the drum part is much less active than the bass line, so that bass sticks out more than it should--and that compromises the overall groove of the RnB feel. Once again, I'm a fan of active bass lines (remember my moonsong mix? lol), but I believe a bit more subtlety would make it groove much harder, and therefore hit the listener in the face with a little more force ;)

The bass fill idea sounds tight to me, but mostly because I love bass but because it's kicking so much ass up to that point it might be excessive. On the other hand, I'm not really sure how to approach R & B drum fills. Could you throw me some ideas?

Oh I don't know, I never really considered RnB fills to be much different. You've used no toms though, and no crash cymbals-- and I don't think those would be out of place. Perhaps even just expanding the writing on the drums would act as a fill. I don't think I have any examples that I can personally give, perhaps try dropping the groove for that measure and just have the hat do quarters, and fill starting on the third beat from there? I don't know, it's hard to explain stuff like that in writing ;) If you want more ideas about this style in general, I actually think djp does a really good job. Check out Pachelbel's Ganon: http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00753/

Thanks for all the great critique!

No prob :3

[xRisingForce]

can you manually edit the velocities? Often times I'll just either draw the velocity levels in or assign numeric values.

Yeah I can, I actually changed the left hand piano harmony to ~75 while the melody is 90-100. This is all post-composition stage for me. After I finish the song, I trim it up with dynamics, vibrato and bends (of course, for instruments that can), EQ, compression, repan, rebalance, all that jazz. It'd be awesome if you could tell me where the song really needs the velocity levels fixed to sound more organic (the intro maybe?). As of right now though, I'm focusing on the composition.


haha yes, of course I noticed the first part was in half time ;) I thought everything was fine, I knew exactly what you were going for. Still, for the RnB feel that you're writing in, the bass line is too busy this far out.


This guy said something similar.


Also, this mix has a bit of an identity crisis because it can either go down as a radio-esque R&B styled track or it can be closer to a smooth jazz thing. The drums say R&B, everything else says jazz. If you're going to go down the R&B road, make all of the melodies less chaotic - find a general hook and stick with it. If the jazz route, make the drums more acoustic feeling.

Thing is, I said "R & Bish." I'm not trying to do R & B, I'm not trying to do Jazz, I'm not a purist, and I'm definitely not trying to stick to a genre or anything of the sort. I'm being myself.

Genres are stereotypes anyway. :P


The piano syncopation is great, and I'm not asking for you totally back off on the bass line. However, the drum part is much less active than the bass line, so that bass sticks out more than it should--and that compromises the overall groove of the RnB feel. Once again, I'm a fan of active bass lines (remember my moonsong mix? lol), but I believe a bit more subtlety would make it groove much harder, and therefore hit the listener in the face with a little more force ;)

Hmm.. could you elaborate on this? Again, I'm not adhering to the restrictions/defining characteristics of any style. I want the drums to take a backseat here, I'm getting the primary groove from the bass. Is that preference? I thought lackluster drums were a staple of R & B.


Oh I don't know, I never really considered RnB fills to be much different. You've used no toms though, and no crash cymbals-- and I don't think those would be out of place.

I'm being completely honest here- I have no idea why I didn't think to, lol. It might be because when I was testing out the stock patches, the R & B kits didn't have crashes so I didn't think to use them. Is there a way to implement crashes without having to change the patch (because this one doesn't have crashes either)?

One of my compositions I'm working on is stylistically the same, and that's void of crashes too- they'd so fit though. Back to the drawing board!


Perhaps even just expanding the writing on the drums would act as a fill. I don't think I have any examples that I can personally give, perhaps try dropping the groove for that measure and just have the hat do quarters, and fill starting on the third beat from there? I don't know, it's hard to explain stuff like that in writing ;)

Yeah it is haha. I wish I had a better knowledge of the drums. I'll give this a try.


If you want more ideas about this style in general, I actually think djp does a really good job. Check out Pachelbel's Ganon: http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00753/ (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/../remix/OCR00753/)

I get a lot of my ideas from Koda Kumi and M-Flo; ever heard of them?

[DrumUltimA]

Thing is, I said "R & Bish." I'm not trying to do R & B, I'm not trying to do Jazz, I'm not a purist, and I'm definitely not trying to stick to a genre or anything of the sort. I'm being myself.

Genres are stereotypes anyway. :P

you're preaching to the choir ;)


Hmm.. could you elaborate on this? Again, I'm not adhering to the restrictions/defining characteristics of any style. I want the drums to take a backseat here, I'm getting the primary groove from the bass. Is that preference? I thought lackluster drums were a staple of R & B.


First off, I think your drums should reflect your above quote ;)

Second off, what were dealing with is how you are identifying your bass line--is it of melodic function, like an additional line of counterpoint, or is it of harmonic function, where it clearly defines the chord. What you've done is explored a grey area, which I think is awesome and much more interesting. However, this early on in the game, I think it's more important to balance the bass more towards defining the chordal structure, and then as the listeners ear becomes more used to it, branching further out into melodic/contrapuntal stuff. Sometimes your bass line floats over the chord changes, instead of defining the tonic of each chord.

But when it comes to defining groove... I can't. It's something you have to hear. But there are a ton of people who have this down, and since we're dealing with bass lines, I'll point the obvious direction and say Victor Wooten is a good guy to check out. He can play fast as hell and do some really complex stuff, but when he grooves the strongest is when he plays much more simple things. I'm a big fan of his rendition of Amazing Grace:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pEyEu-hS0fA
It doesn't really get started with the groovy stuff until halfway through the video, but notice how when he's playing that melody, it groves really hard without much bass action at all!

Once again, a lot of stuff that can't be written!!! sorry :<


Is there a way to implement crashes without having to change the patch (because this one doesn't have crashes either)?

One of my compositions I'm working on is stylistically the same, and that's void of crashes too- they'd so fit though. Back to the drawing board!

No idea. Can you use more than one patch?



I get a lot of my ideas from Koda Kumi and M-Flo; ever heard of them?

Nope! :<

[The Author]

I like the idea, I see what you were going for, and you seriously have two choices here:

#1 Keep the "sound" you have there, and embrace the actual result, which is not very R&B but more elevator music like. Not a bad thing really. It's a musac feel that is quite unique, and when using Zelda and Chrono Trigger, you have to go for a unique feel. The piano at first is too dry, you need to find a way to give it more presence, but everything else in there somewhat fits. I love it's cheesy vacation resort / musac feel. If you can embrace the cheese, this could be a very unique thing.

2# Keep the idea, start from scratch. As an R&B type song, I'm gonna say you somewhat missed the mark. Strings for this type of sound seems wrong, or maybe just used wrong. The piano, in this case is not only wrong, but prohibitive for the R&B thing.


My honest opinion:

Embrace the cheese, please do, you may have stumbled upon something that is gonna become very memorable.

[xRisingForce]

you're preaching to the choir ;)

That's good to know. :D


First off, I think your drums should reflect your above quote ;)

What do you mean? The drums are boring, lol.


Second off, what were dealing with is how you are identifying your bass line--is it of melodic function, like an additional line of counterpoint, or is it of harmonic function, where it clearly defines the chord. What you've done is explored a grey area, which I think is awesome and much more interesting.

Definitely harmonic, and in one measure it even accented some color tones. For the most part it's harmonic. I'm not sure if it's counterpoint in this case, but it mirrors the piano lines towards the end of Wind Scene.

This is on a tangent, but the main purpose of bass to me is to augment the groove and support the harmony. I use higher voices (~1000-3000 Hz) for the melody. Also, it's nice when that lower cavity of sound that'd otherwise be vacant is filled.


However, this early on in the game, I think it's more important to balance the bass more towards defining the chordal structure, and then as the listeners ear becomes more used to it, branching further out into melodic/contrapuntal stuff. Sometimes your bass line floats over the chord changes, instead of defining the tonic of each chord.

The bass phrases always start on the tonic when the chord changes :|


But when it comes to defining groove... I can't. It's something you have to hear.

Once again, a lot of stuff that can't be written!!! sorry :<

Now you're preaching to the choir. :P Victor Wooten is a monster.


No idea. Can you use more than one patch?

Yes, but I was kinda/sorta hoping to avoid it. I guess it can't be helped :\


Nope! :<

They're really mainstream in Japan. M-Flo's an R&B artist as well as Koda Kumi.


I like the idea, I see what you were going for, and you seriously have two choices here:

#1 Keep the "sound" you have there, and embrace the actual result, which is not very R&B but more elevator music like. Not a bad thing really. It's a musac feel that is quite unique, and when using Zelda and Chrono Trigger, you have to go for a unique feel. The piano at first is too dry, you need to find a way to give it more presence, but everything else in there somewhat fits. I love it's cheesy vacation resort / musac feel. If you can embrace the cheese, this could be a very unique thing.

My honest opinion:

Embrace the cheese, please do, you may have stumbled upon something that is gonna become very memorable.

Hahahaha, what?? You sound very supportive, and I really have to thank you for that. The piano can be fixed- that's the post-composition stage though, and I want to keep critique strictly compositional right now (like the drums). But, did you use muzak for lack of a better word? Because that's borderline insulting to me..

Muzak is like the various Wii channel music, not this D:

I do admit you said this is unique, so maybe I succeeded in creating my own sound. :D


2# Keep the idea, start from scratch. As an R&B type song, I'm gonna say you somewhat missed the mark. Strings for this type of sound seems wrong, or maybe just used wrong. The piano, in this case is not only wrong, but prohibitive for the R&B thing.


Thing is, I said "R & Bish." I'm not trying to do R & B, I'm not trying to do Jazz, I'm not a purist, and I'm definitely not trying to stick to a genre or anything of the sort. I'm being myself.

Genres are stereotypes anyway. :P

:D

[The Author]

http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00432/

One of my favourite remixes here. Muzak wasn't intended to be an insult. Making a song sound good in a niche genre is a bigger challenge. This was a unique sound, and just as I believe there can be good country western, I believe there is good "muzak",

[xRisingForce]

I've fixed the bassline under Cmaj7 and C7 and I've completely revamped the drums.

It sounds a bit more lounge jazz now with an R&B flair (in the bass drum).. not that that's a bad thing.

Drum criticism, please. I suck at writing drum music, lol.

http://www.tindeck.com/audio/my/zase/600-A.D.

Note: RadicalDreamer, sorry if I offended you. Muzak to me is synonymous with the various Wii channel music, not this D: I appreciate your feedback!

[DrumUltimA]

Yeah, that's a good fill! Go with that. I think I liked the old kit better though, so I think you should just bite the bullet and use two sets. I hate doing it too but it's worth it.

[xRisingForce]

Yeah, that's a good fill!

Thanks man! You have any cool ideas you think would fit?


Go with that. I think I liked the old kit better though, so I think you should just bite the bullet and use two sets. I hate doing it too but it's worth it.

Yeah, I was trying it for a little. The only sounds I was using were clap, hi-hat, and bass; which of those are better than the sounds now?

[DrumUltimA]

Thanks man! You have any cool ideas you think would fit?


Yeah, I was trying it for a little. The only sounds I was using were clap, hi-hat, and bass; which of those are better than the sounds now?

the clap, hi-hat, and bass ;). But I like it when it switches to snare!

[Blackwinged Saron]

i immediately saw dragon warrior flash across my mind at the beginning, now im hearing...wait its over, wow. this might be good, still too early to really tell. i think your idea is sound, but you gotta find a way to get there. everything seems...stacked, if thats a good word. it's too busy. it sounds nice, but it's not an OC yet.

[Monobrow]

Okay... I gave this a listen.

My advice to you, is if you are going for that R&B feel (and Doug/Drumultima mentioned this somewhat before)... But I think your drumbeat (as you have said) is really boring.

What I think you need here is to use your drums for emphasis on the beat.

You have a pretty neat bassline going... Beef it up, I am not really sure I like the sample you're using there... But maybe you could try to EQ it and layer it with something else.

Anyway, back to that bassline. It's a good trick to, when your hit a note in your bassline that you want to emphasize (say at like :57) A common misconception I had with drums for a while was thinking I had to interchange the hit with the high hats and the kicks... But don't feel afraid to emphasize things within your drum patterns by putting down snare hits, crashes, and kicks on the same beat (usually an offbeat) that your bass is hitting. Lining up your piano/bass/whatever else that can help emphasize the rhythm... All at the same time in a measure can really add a dynamic feel to a song (especially a song of this nature)

It's about taking the rhythm you've set up, and really owning it within each measure of the song. R%B really accomplishes this by choosing a beat or two within a measure and utilizing all the resources of the song to carry that rhythm across. Overall the beat going with the snare and the kick is okay, and the bassline works well... But just listen to each measure and think about what you're trying to do with the melody and the bassline within that measure... When you're satisfied, move on.

Whew

[xRisingForce]

My advice to you, is if you are going for that R&B feel (and Doug/Drumultima mentioned this somewhat before)... But I think your drumbeat (as you have said) is really boring.

Did you check out version 2? It starts to get really syncopated once "Lost Woods" comes in.


You have a pretty neat bassline going... Beef it up, I am not really sure I like the sample you're using there... But maybe you could try to EQ it and layer it with something else.

Thanks a lot. LOL, I'm using all stock Reason patches.. maybe that's why. The bass is eq'ed already, albeit extremely amateurly done. Any samples (free possibly :<) you'd recommend? If you want to see/help, I can send you the Reason file.


Anyway, back to that bassline. It's a good trick to, when your hit a note in your bassline that you want to emphasize (say at like :57) A common misconception I had with drums for a while was thinking I had to interchange the hit with the high hats and the kicks... But don't feel afraid to emphasize things within your drum patterns by putting down snare hits, crashes, and kicks on the same beat (usually an offbeat) that your bass is hitting. Lining up your piano/bass/whatever else that can help emphasize the rhythm... All at the same time in a measure can really add a dynamic feel to a song (especially a song of this nature)

Thanks for the great tip. This is something I end up doing a lot subconsciously. Just sorta makes sense regarding drum functions.

0:37, 1:04 - Piano, bass, and drums lock in for the minor 6th chord progression
0:41 - The bass mirrors the piano
0:58, 1:05, 1:19 - Drum crashes to accent the start of the hook of the Lost Woods melody
1:01 - Stop-time drum fill (snare, bass + open hi-hat x2) to accent the syncopated left hand piano rhythm
1:15 - Stop-time drum fill to accent the bass run
1:20 - Bass rhythmically locks in with the bass drum to accent the syncopated/groovy rhythm and shares a similar rhythm to mirror the syncopated/groovy piano line


It's about taking the rhythm you've set up, and really owning it within each measure of the song. R%B really accomplishes this by choosing a beat or two within a measure and utilizing all the resources of the song to carry that rhythm across. Overall the beat going with the snare and the kick is okay, and the bassline works well... But just listen to each measure and think about what you're trying to do with the melody and the bassline within that measure... When you're satisfied, move on.

I feel as if the groove created by what you've just stated is a minimalist approach and definitely a staple of R&B. And I've definitely done that at points in this song (although the bass isn't close to simplicity found in most R&B songs, lol).

Thanks a lot for the critique!

[zircon]

ARRANGEMENT / INTERPRETATION
[x] Too conservative - sticks too close to the source

PRODUCTION
[x] Low-quality samples
[x] Unrealistic sequencing
[x] Drums have no energy

STRUCTURE
[x] Pace too plodding

PERSONAL COMMENTS (positive feedback, specifics on checklist criticisms, any other thoughts)

Your piano and drums are really mechanical, and the sample quality is not very good. Regardless of what sort of keyboard setup you have, you should be able to edit velocities and timing in a piano roll, but I think the real issue (with the piano anyway) is that the playing is simply choppy. I don't know why you would ever play a passage like that. Wouldn't an electric piano be a better choice, anyway? Seems like more of an R&B staple. There's also a distinct lack of any effects, such as reverb/delay, which would be very useful for making this sound less dry.

The drums are fine in terms of their sequencing. The issue is that they simply sound bad. You want a thick, meaty, nearly-unrealistic "thump" kick or even a drum machine. The snare should be more like a rim shot plus a hand clap/snap if you're going for an R&B feel. Listen to some of Joshua Morse's remixes, particularly his recent "Hamadatan" to hear an example of some great R&B-style production. I think the lack of effects again is hurting this.. a bit of overdrive and compression could really help, plus some kind of light room reverb on the snare.

In terms of the arrangement, aside from some simple flourishes and embellishments, there really isn't a lot of interpretation here, just a sort of layering of a couple different themes. I hope you expand this aspect more.

[xRisingForce]

ARRANGEMENT / INTERPRETATION
[x] Too conservative - sticks too close to the source

PRODUCTION
[x] Low-quality samples
[x] Unrealistic sequencing
[x] Drums have no energy

STRUCTURE
[x] Pace too plodding


What do you guys think of the composition? Don't comment on the production because it's definitely not at that stage yet.

<_<

On a different note, are you being serious? All that drum syncopation when "Lost Woods" comes in has no energy?


PERSONAL COMMENTS (positive feedback, specifics on checklist criticisms, any other thoughts)

Your piano and drums are really mechanical, and the sample quality is not very good. Regardless of what sort of keyboard setup you have, you should be able to edit velocities and timing in a piano roll, but I think the real issue (with the piano anyway) is that the playing is simply choppy. I don't know why you would ever play a passage like that.



can you manually edit the velocities? Often times I'll just either draw the velocity levels in or assign numeric values.


Yeah I can, I actually changed the left hand piano harmony to ~75 while the melody is 90-100. This is all post-composition stage for me. After I finish the song, I trim it up with dynamics, vibrato and bends (of course, for instruments that can), EQ, compression, repan, rebalance, all that jazz. It'd be awesome if you could tell me where the song really needs the velocity levels fixed to sound more organic (the intro maybe?). As of right now though, I'm focusing on the composition.

I can't blame you for missing that one though, it was on the second page.


The drums are fine in terms of their sequencing. The issue is that they simply sound bad. You want a thick, meaty, nearly-unrealistic "thump" kick or even a drum machine. The snare should be more like a rim shot plus a hand clap/snap if you're going for an R&B feel. Listen to some of Joshua Morse's remixes, particularly his recent "Hamadatan" to hear an example of some great R&B-style production. I think the lack of effects again is hurting this.. a bit of overdrive and compression could really help, plus some kind of light room reverb on the snare.


Wouldn't an electric piano be a better choice, anyway? Seems like more of an R&B staple. There's also a distinct lack of any effects, such as reverb/delay, which would be very useful for making this sound less dry.


Thing is, I said "R & Bish." I'm not trying to do R & B, I'm not trying to do Jazz, I'm not a purist, and I'm definitely not trying to stick to a genre or anything of the sort. I'm being myself.

Genres are stereotypes anyway. :P

I'll try using an electric piano, and see how it sounds. I actually like that loungey-jazz piano sound in junction with an R&Bish groove. The original version DID use a kit that had a clap and a phat bass drum, but I don't like the low energy sound of it all. It just boils down to production anyway..


In terms of the arrangement, aside from some simple flourishes and embellishments, there really isn't a lot of interpretation here, just a sort of layering of a couple different themes. I hope you expand this aspect more.

I mean, I'm not trying to bastardize the melody or chord progression or anything, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I completely changed the styles of Wind Scene and Lost Woods into something original (definitely not R&B or Jazz), which was basically the genesis of remixing aka arrangement,was it not?

[zircon]

You changed the style, yes, but as of now it's what we call a simple genre adaptation. It's not hard to do and we get tons of remixes like that. Most of them get rejected. You're on the right track, generally speaking - you're at the part in the mix where now you should be taking it in another direction. I'd like to hear you change the melody and chord progression more significantly. Add new chords. Jazz up the existing chords. Improvise more over the existing progression. Take half the melody and then replace the second half with a solo. Change the rhythms more.

It's also hard not to critique production when the style you're going for is practically reliant on production. Maybe you need to focus on that sooner rather than later.

Also yes, your drums have no energy. I didn't even notice "all that drum syncopation". The sequencing was solid but there was nothing appealing or interesting about them otherwise.

[xRisingForce]

It's not hard to do.

How difficult a song was to make is irrelevant to the quality of the song itself. The end product is the only thing that matters, the process itself is meaningless.


I'd like to hear you change the melody and chord progression more significantly.

My favorite and among the very few remixes that I actually like on this site that are those of DrumUltima and HousetheGrate. ;)

Personal flair > bastardization


I didn't even notice "all that drum syncopation".

Seeing as how you're heavily inclined towards electronica and indirectly towards new age, I couldn't blame you. Grooving drums really aren't staples of either.

[zircon]

So all the remixes that change chord progression and melody are "bastardizing" the original? Even though both Doug and HousetheGrate do both? What are you even doing on this site? :roll:

Seeing as how you're heavily inclined towards electronica and indirectly towards new age, I couldn't blame you. Grooving drums really aren't staples of either.

You couldn't be more wrong. I spend 90% of the time on any electronic track or remix working on the drums alone. Breakbeat and drum and bass music is practically reliant on groove. But that aside, I've had to write in just about every genre and I perform weekly in a fusion ensemble, dealing with complex syncopated rhythms for hours at a time.

Anyway, by all means, please keep ignoring my advice and get your remix rejected.

[xRisingForce]

So all the remixes that change chord progression and melody are "bastardizing" the original? Even though both Doug and HousetheGrate do both? What are you even doing on this site? :roll:

Moon Rhapsody, Light in the Fortress, Clockwork, and Walk on Water largely, if not completely keep the melodies and harmonies of the respective songs intact.


Anyway, by all means, please keep ignoring my advice and get your remix rejected.

I mean, really now..

Do you think I'm writing this piece to submit it to OC ReMix? I'm doing it for myself- and may as well submit it to OC ReMix when I'm done. This is a good place to get criticism regarding videogame music and its production, which is why I'm using the WiP forums. You are really unaware of how little I care about your opinion; judge, moderator, project director or not.

[indigoflux]

The end product is the only thing that matters, the process itself is meaningless.

You're kidding... if the end product is the only thing that matters, you might as well not make any music, since you won't get anything out of the process.

[xRisingForce]

You're kidding... if the end product is the only thing that matters, you might as well not make any music, since you won't get anything out of the process.
No, that's not what I meant.

Nobody cares whether you put two weeks or two months into a song and had to do intensive research on Jazz chords to write the chorus. The song stands alone.

[Beatdrop]

You are really unaware of how little I care about your opinion; judge, moderator, project director or not.


Uh, but didn't you post here in the first place looking for feedback? If it's not completely positive and worshipping the musical ground you walk on, where does the desire for feedback leave you room to complain?

[xRisingForce]

Uh, but didn't you post here in the first place looking for feedback? If it's not completely positive and worshipping the musical ground you walk on, where does the desire for feedback leave you room to complain?
Zircon's feedback.

Stop taking sentences out of context ;)

[Theory of N]

Zircon's feedback.

Stop taking sentences out of context ;)

So, you're saying that because he said a few negative things about your song in a constructive way, you're going to ignore it? Zircon knows his shit, dude. Even if he wasn't judge, project coordinator, mod, all that, his feedback is still worth every word.

[Beatdrop]

Why does it matter who the feedback comes from? I would think that getting feedback from one of the very people who functions as quality control for OCR as a whole (which is no small task, believe me, I've been there myself) would be exactly what you're looking for.

[DrumUltimA]

My favorite and among the very few remixes that I actually like on this site that are those of DrumUltima and HousetheGrate. ;)

Personal flair > bastardization

I'm flattered, but you realize I love "bastardizing" this music...? One of my favorite things to do is change up the chord progression. Hell, I have one mix in line for posting that sounds nothing like the original! Hopefully nobody will call me out on this! I'm pretty sure I changed up a bunch of stuff in moon rhapsody too, though not as liberally as I normally do...

You are really unaware of how little I care about your opinion, judge, moderator, fusion band member or not.

Dude, you need to calm down. I get feedback from judges I don't agree with ALL THE TIME. If you really think it's wrong, just say thanks, ignore it, and move on. The more defensive you get, the more I question your motives for posting in the wip forum in the first place. But feedback should be nothing but appreciated, getting picky with what you want to hear and what you don't is not that different from the homeless people in baltimore who ask for food, but get picky when you give them a bag of chips they don't like.

[tweek]

You are really unaware of how little I care about your opinion; judge, moderator, project director or not.

Your pretension leads me to stop your song mid play through. I have observed your wild and verbose threads and have held my tongue, but I hold no longer.

Andy gave you some harsh and valid criticism and you argue over it as though he's clueless as to what he's talking about.

Mate, in the future, I would advise you not to ask for criticism or feedback unless you are prepared to take it from everyone who offers it.

If this is your reaction to what zircon says, God help you if Snappleman shows up in this thread!

[xRisingForce]

So, you're saying that because he said a few negative things about your song in a constructive way, you're going to ignore it? Zircon knows his shit, dude. Even if he wasn't judge, project coordinator, mod, all that, his feedback is still worth every word.

You don't even know the half of it, much less basing ignorant opinions with what you can try to infer from this thread.


Why does it matter who the feedback comes from? I would think that getting feedback from one of the very people who functions as quality control for OCR as a whole (which is no small task, believe me, I've been there myself) would be exactly what you're looking for.



Dude, you need to calm down. I get feedback from judges I don't agree with ALL THE TIME. If you really think it's wrong, just say thanks, ignore it, and move on. The more defensive you get, the more I question your motives for posting in the wip forum in the first place. But feedback should be nothing but appreciated, getting picky with what you want to hear and what you don't is not that different from the homeless people in baltimore who ask for food, but get picky when you give them a bag of chips they don't like.

Eh.. you're right. From the "Context" thread I started, it's pretty clear that Zircon clashes with me to the point where I can't respect his opinions. It's like a baroque purist trying to critique Miles Davis from an entirely classicist standpoint; the criticism isn't really applicable.

So Tweek, it's not so much that is was harsh (it really wasn't, Snappleman's critiqued my guitar playing before while sitting on his silver throne). I couldn't care less about that. I'M not pretentious enough to change a piece and try to argue that my interpretation is just as valid as the composer's.

[DjSammyG]

wat

oh btw i don't like how you added the other songs
you're trying to do too much
the piano needs more soul
stick to the wind scene

[DrumUltimA]

Eh.. you're right. From the "Context" thread I started, it's pretty clear that Zircon clashes with me to the point where I can't respect his opinions. It's like a baroque purist trying to critique Miles Davis from an entirely classicist standpoint; the criticism isn't really applicable.

except he's not a baroque purist and you're not miles davis ;)

[xRisingForce]

except he's not a baroque purist and you're not miles davis ;)
Yeah, hence the use of like. He thinks all interpretation is just as valid as the composer's and that understanding the composer's point of view in regards to the song is rather trivial in appreciating his music.. rofl.

I think it's essential.

This is digressing though.

[Theory of N]

You don't even know the half of it, much less trying to ignorantly form opinions with what you can try to infer from this thread.

right, just like everyone else. I formed my opinions the same way everyone else did. By reading this thread. I didn't see anything different than anyone else did. The same words are displayed on my screen, so why should my "ignorant opinion" be taken any less seriously than anyone else's? Just because they've said something about it before me?

[xRisingForce]

By reading this thread.

Wrong.

http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16475

[indigoflux]

He thinks all interpretation is just as valid as the composer's and that understanding the composer's point of view in regards to the song is rather trivial in appreciating his music.. rofl.

Well, if only you can interpret your music correctly... then what's the point of us listening to it and giving feedback? :P

[Theory of N]

Wrong.

http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16475



and now you're being ignorant by thinking this is the only thread I've read. Nice

[xRisingForce]

Well, if only you can interpret your music correctly... then what's the point of us listening to it and giving feedback? :P

First off, forgive me for my harshness but it's stupid to try and interpret this piece when it's not even halfway complete.

Second, WiP isn't about interpreting the expression behind a song. A lot if not most of the stuff on here is already largely if not entirely composed, so WiP is to help with production. I'm lacking in drums, and DrumUltimA has extremely valid points to make (he might not like me calling him this) because his forte is in percussion. And after I fix that up and finish up the song, then we can get around to production. ;)

[Beatdrop]

Looking at the other thread you linked to makes me laugh.

I'm gonna go mash some random buttons on my SH-32 now and get pissed when people don't understand my intentions.

[zircon]

Yeah, hence the use of like. He thinks all interpretation is just as valid as the composer's and that understanding the composer's point of view in regards to the song is rather trivial in appreciating his music.. rofl.

I think it's essential.

This is digressing though.

It is digressing, considering my philosophical views on music have absolutely nothing to do with your drums lacking in energy. Given that other people have levied similar criticism on your work, you're merely choosing to ignore my feedback (which everybody but you appears to acknowledge as having some degree of value) because you don't like me. I was a lot like you when I came to this site as well, throwing a tantrum and scoffing anytime people had something negative to say about my crappy remixes. Then I grew up.

Have you noticed that your bad attitude, ENORMOUS ego and hostile responses have earned you contempt from virtually everyone in this thread? Setting aside every other factor involved, the way you present yourself is unbearably grating and pretentious. You've already been warned by a moderator other than me, and combined with the overwhelming amount of ill will you've managed to gather from the OCR community at large, you should be getting the hint by now that maybe you should rethink your behavior.

[Theory of N]

ok, so...ignore everything I've said so far. Starting over.

What do you guys think of the composition? Don't comment on the production because it's definitely not at that stage yet.

A lot if not most of the stuff on here is already largely if not entirely composed, so WiP is to help with production.

What exactly is it that you want?

[DrumUltimA]

First off, forgive me for my harshness but it's stupid to try and interpret this piece when it's not even halfway complete.

Second, WiP isn't about interpreting the expression behind a song. A lot if not most of the stuff on here is already largely if not entirely composed, so WiP is to help with production. I'm lacking in drums, and DrumUltimA has extremely valid points to make (he might not like me calling him this) because his forte is in percussion. And after I fix that up and finish up the song, then we can get around to production. ;)

alright man, i'll give you my advice:

what you've got written is good. I think the beats you've got work very well, you have a good feel for tension and release, and I know you're not totally comfortable with fills but what you showed me was exactly the right idea. What you need to do with the drums now is all in the production stage--mixing the levels of each drum, eqing each drum (snare, kick, toms, hats, cymbals, etc), and using compression to make the drums more dynamic. This will give your drums the "energy" that they are lacking now. Good mixing of percussion can make or break a track. Your sequencing is solid, any advice I give would be redundant.

Unfortunately, I'm not very good with this stuff. I recommend you do what I did, and go to zircon, who knows infinitely more about the production values of percussion than I do. I don't consider anything I do finished until I run it by him first, and I've never left him without learning something. I just hope you haven't completely burned that bridge yet.

[xRisingForce]

What exactly is it that you want?


Drum criticism, please. I suck at writing drum music, lol.

I'm not a drummer. The drums that I programmed in are probably extremely amateur to experienced drummers like DrumUltimA, so I'd like to get more criticism like his.

[Liontamer]

Well, given your analogy, Andy, he could be a judge in a few years.

Guys, let's all chill and just stick to critiquing the mix, not the artist's reaction to the feedback. If he doesn't want to work with your criticism, that's his prerogative. I don't think any amount of browbeating is going to force him to better acknowledge your criticisms, plus it should be up to him whether or not to consider them.

[Beatdrop]

I don't consider anything I do finished until I run it by him first

Come to think of it, I pretty much send him everything I complete to see what he thinks, too. Not even because I don't trust in my intentions, but simply because I value his objective and subjective opinions.

[Bahamut]

So Tweek, it's not so much that is was harsh (it really wasn't, Snappleman's critiqued my guitar playing before while sitting on his silver throne). I couldn't care less about that. I'M not pretentious enough to change a piece and try to argue that my interpretation is just as valid as the composer's.

Your interpretation is your interpretation. Sometimes it can be better than the original. Nobody said it has to be the same or similar as the original composers - it's about making the song you make your own.

[xRisingForce]

Well, given your analogy, Andy, he could be a judge in a few years.

Guys, let's all chill and just stick to critiquing the mix, not the artist's reaction to the feedback. If he doesn't want to work with your criticism, that's his prerogative. I don't think any amount of browbeating is going to force him to better acknowledge your criticisms, plus it should be up to him whether or not to consider them.
Thanks a lot Liontamer, you're almost always the one trying to restore order in my chaotic threads. Albeit.. they're chaotic because of me, lol.

Sorry Zircon. You had some good points to be made.