Silent Hill Discussion [Archive] - Page 2

ifirit

03-18-2004, 03:46 PM

Silent Hill 3 Spoilers

Fairy?

Silent hill 3 is sounding more and more like a war crime every day

You never found the fairy? It's when you're in the sewers, i think right before or after that thing you electrocute (or maybe even right there) you walk up to the edge, by the water, and press X. It'll ask you if you want to throw in your pipe, and then a fairy appears. She asks you if it was a gold pipe that you dropped. answer no. then she'll ask you if it's a silver pipe. answer no again. then she'll ask you it it was a filthy old pipe. answer yes, and you get all three! :D no difference in damage though. shame.

The Fairy is quite amusing, but you only get it after beating the game and receiving it in the game results. But even more interesting, the monster you electrocute in the sewers is the same blood-sucker from the Achemila Hospital in SH1. I purposely died several times to get a good look.

Anyway, Eccles, the game's extras are completely ridiculous (except the infinite sub-machine gun, and SH2 references). The Heather Beam/Sexy Beam and Transform costumes are just cheesy takes at anime. The Beam Saber is an obvious rip from Star Wars. The alternate costumes are mostly just from game magazines publishers and their readers. However, the game does recreate that fear of what's beyond the next room feel that SH1 had.

The extreme challenge games are just insane. The hardest gameplay I've ever attempted. Also, unlike the previous games, you get all kinds of death sequences. Getting hit by a train, falling off the train, killed by monsters and dragged off into the unknown, strangled in the sewers, ect. I think, though, that the developers took away too much from the endings and spread it out through the game.

I also think there is a deeper subtext in the game that I have yet to figure out. In addition, people who've played the game on their PC have said it's a much more horrifying experience than on console. More so, if you have surround-sound.

Silent Hill 2 Spoilers

Its a simple enough question....
Why does eddie talk about the police doing things in town when there are no cops...

Well many believe that silent hill changes depending on who enters it..this is a well known fact by now as it nearly goes as far to say such in the games..take for instance the fact that laura doesnt see any monsters...and yet she is alone in the city? Maybe there really are normal people there..maybe Silent Hill is still flowing with tourists..its just that only those without doubt can see them. Or maybe she sees people who arent really there..just as james..and all those without pure hearts..see the monsters. Eddie may indeed see police..because in his version of silent hill..they are really there.

Actually, it was Laura who implied that the police were chasing Eddie. I believe the dialogue goes like this:

Laura: So whad'ja do? Robbery? Murder?
Eddie: Nah, nothin' like that.
Laura: Ha! You're just a gustless fatso.
Eddie: What'd you have to say that for?
Laura: I thought you said the cops were after you.
Eddie: I just ran cause I was scared. I don't know what the cops are doing.
Laura: But if you did something bad, why don't you just say you're sorry? Well, I guess I run away a lots, too.
Eddie: It's no good. They wouldn't listen. Nobody will ever forgive me.

From this I gather that Eddie only told Laura that he had run away after doing something bad. Laura assumed that he meant the police were chasing him. And as Eddie said, he just ran cause he was scared. Also, we know that Eddie didn't kill anyone before coming to Silent Hill, cause Laura asked him (though, I believe Eddie doesn't view killing a dog as murder). Besides, shotting a person below the waist is not considered attempted murder. And, I don't think a dead dog would draw too much attention, so I don't see the plot of "The Fugitive" taking center-stage in this case.

On that note, if you think about it Silent Hill seems to attract people who aren't wanted or accepted by society: an orpan, a widower, a run-away, a cowardly fatso. Maria can't be applied because she was born there, Ernest told her so.

On the subject of references, though I think you know, the room with the moths is a reference to Buffalo Bill.

Lastly, I think the reason for the low interest in SH is the genre. A lot of people either don't understand it or are frightened by it. Some people are really afraid of pain, even at the sight of it.

EDIT: Speaking of references, Eccles, have you checked out this site (http://hometown.aol.com/silenthillnurse/SilentHillFiles.html). From the small hit count I assume it is fairly new.

With that I don't know if anybody has noticed, but the silenthilldomain is down for good, as well as all its sub-sites. This leaves a pretty big hole in the Silent Hill community since they were becoming the monopoly on Silent Hill sites. Anyway, just wanted to let you know what happened (in case you were wondering).

Eccles

03-18-2004, 09:09 PM

Ive been thinkin bout settin' up my own...

Firedrake

03-18-2004, 09:35 PM

Hehe....
http://www.whatthefun.net/sh/ph.html
http://www.geocities.com/kramwartap/konami_artwork.html
http://www.saintbrendan.com/cdnjune01/sclem6.html
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pyramid+Head

Eccles

03-18-2004, 09:49 PM

Request time!

Since dustfungus appears to be down, i ask you guys for a certain sound file.

I need a clip from SH1...namely Cheryl/Alessa going "NO!...I DONT WANT TO!"

Lynsent

03-18-2004, 10:54 PM

One question I'd like to ask : How is it that the 2/3 of Silent Hill 3's action takes place in a city that is not Silent Hill ??

Vagrant's_Angel

03-18-2004, 11:54 PM

Silent Hill 4 is going to be amazing! I love this series so much! SH4 seems to be the best in the series. I can't wait!

Tranquil Chaos

03-19-2004, 12:48 AM

SH 4 looks to be shaping up quite nice. I like the thought of a man going crazy in his apartment... Seems to fit my own life somehow...

ifirit

03-19-2004, 12:50 AM

Silent Hill 4 is going to be amazing! I love this series so much! SH4 seems to be the best in the series. I can't wait!

Ok. Let's try to stay focused here. We've got a lot of work in understanding the games and a lot of unanswered posts in this thread.

Silent Hill 3 Spoilers

One question I'd like to ask : How is it that the 2/3 of Silent Hill 3's action takes place in a city that is not Silent Hill ??

Silent Hill 3 is told through Heather's eyes, who is Harry Mason's daughter. Harry didn't live in Silent Hill, so consequently, neither does Heather. However, there are circumstances as to why Heather lives in Portland (or wherever that place is) under the surname Morris.

These circumstances are touched upon in Douglas' notebook. Apparently, things didn't quiet down for Harry after he escaped Silent Hill. One particular event pushed Harry enough to go into hiding. This is why Claudia needed to hire a detective. I suppose Claudia hired him in California, which might explain why Douglas has CA license plates.

Obviously, Heather didn't initially want to go with Douglas, so we were stuck in Portland (or wherever that place is) until Heather found reason to go back to Silent Hill. So pretty much the whole first part of the game was just to set up the last 1/4 of the game: Heather's revenge.

Still, this plot line seems petty in scheme of the series. I believe that there is something deeper laying underneath the surface. I know it has something to do with the cult and why god is still alive. Also, by killing Claudia, does that truly mean it's over? How do we know god didn't survive? That is the hardest question I've been trying to understand since SH3 was announced.

Hehe....
http://www.whatthefun.net/sh/ph.html

Remember kids, with just some stained rags and cardboard, you too can become a sexy mass-murderer.

http://www.geocities.com/kramwartap/konami_artwork.html

Action figures. Collect them all. NOW!!!!!!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pyramid+Head

One. Freaky. Bastard.
Best. Quote. Ever.

http://www.saintbrendan.com/cdnjune01/sclem6.html

Joking aside, I might actually try to visit Pyramid Head Rock the next time I visit my sister. Maybe stop over in San Bruno as well. It's turning out to be quite a trip.

ifirit

03-19-2004, 01:42 AM

Silent Hill 2: Born From A Wish Spoilers

I bring this up since the Maria we know from SH2 first becomes aware in an appartment above the club with only 1 bullet in the revolver she's holding. ...but I think that the town's powers that be may of actually converted this prostitute into the antagonistic Maria that we now know. Using deduction, I also figured that she felt herself changing as well and was going to pull the trigger but it was too late.

I think I understand, but I want to clarify, just to be sure. You are suggesting that a "stripper" might have been at the brink of suicide in the town. Just before she ends her life, the town calls to her and stops her from doing so. You are then suggesting that the town fills her with the wish from James. This wish converts the "stripper" into Maria.

Though not sudden, Maria is now a new person born inside another person's body (that coincidently looks like James' dead wife). So Maria now has the memories of the dead girl and the wishes born from Silent Hill. However, the memories of the town grows stronger throughout the BFAW scenario.

That's a stretch, but not implausible. I'll need to think about it more, because it doesn't seem quite right for some reason.

Also, it would explain why Maria complains of being so lonely in the Born upon a wish scenario, since she would have to have memories of being around people in order to notice the lack of them in the town. Also, the memories that were being implanted in her was still underway it would seem as we play as here, since the 2 sets of memories keep on colliding (for example, check the bears out in the mansion's attic and you'll get a message about Laura, a girl the prostitue Maria could never of met, which is why she questions her knowledge of Laura at the time). Pretty wierd, eh?

It's true that Maria is becoming increasingly aware of her "fate." However, I don't understand how her previous memories don't show up. She doesn't really give any indication what those previous memories are. For all we know, those could be Mary's memories. If not, then there would have to be three sets of memories present: the dead girl's, Mary's and the town's.

Personally, I think that Maria was born from the mist and has the body of a monster (particularly the final boss). The town tried to bring Mary's soul into this body, which is why she has Mary's memories (expressed to James in the prison cell). The town, thoughout the game (both the main and sub-scenario), is communicating with Maria telling her about James and Laura and her "fate."

I think Ernest's question to Maria about whether she believed in fate or not is important in this matter. By not making the wishes or memories or whatever from the town not a part of her, but merely communicated to her, it allows Maria to choose her fate. Ultimately, she "chooses" to follow the town's call.

However, this is again a philosophical issue here. You could believe that she is not free to choose her path; that the memories of the town are inside her and eventually take over; that it is fate. So, really it is up to you to decide whether or not you believe in fate.

Still, it will then influence your theory about Maria in the rest of the game, because now we have to ask if Maria is acting on her own or just being puppetted by the town. Choose carefully and consider all the consequences.

EDIT: Has anyone noticed that it has been over one year since we last saw a SH remix? I better get cracking. *Sigh* Too many projects.

Eccles

03-19-2004, 07:05 AM

ifirit

03-19-2004, 07:56 AM

so yeah, I seriously am considering this silent hill fansite now...

There are two problems.
1) I havent played SH3 and subsequently don't know it inside out like the other two.

2) The only material I have (images of monsters and such) would be taken from other peoples sites, which Im sure is breaking all kinds of laws.

They're not that big. I suggest you just start off with SH1 & SH2 for now. You can work on playing 3 later. And you can easily get around the images thing by just giving credit to the sites you pulled them off from. It's not that hard to write someone's name down.

Really, the issue of making of a site, even if using someone else's material, isn't in the material itself, but in the way you present it. If you can do more with the same materials as another site, that is what matters.

EDIT: Updated profile.

Eccles

03-19-2004, 11:40 AM

Or I could have somebody else tell me what to put in the SH3 section and write it up later on my own when I get the site going...

I only know HTML, so unless I pick up a tutorial site, I can only really do a site like the one in my sig (one with pretty writing and pictures, nothing fancy)

But yeah, Im considering it
Ive gotten my comprehensive list of all the movie references and crap that Ive found in SH1 and 2...so I can put those in sections.
Also monsters, walkthroughs, save point locations, maps...all that kinda thing.

So yeah, Im thinking about that...

-edit-
Also a background of silent hill (overall), media; tracklists, OST tracklists, Reimxes (offer a mirror for the OCR downloads), theories (preferably feasible ones, not like the "Harry = pyramid head" ones)

-edit2-
More silent hill 2 discussion...
If you notice, at the opening of the street that has the apartment buildings in it (Katz street, I believe) there're police barricades across the end. The little barricades with "POLICE! DO NOT CROSS!" tape.
What significance do you suppose this has?

StarZander

03-19-2004, 01:09 PM

I only know HTML, so unless I pick up a tutorial site, I can only really do a site like the one in my sig (one with pretty writing and pictures, nothing fancy)

If you'd like, I might be able to produce something for you. I, too, know only html, but I can produce abit more that that site in you sig :) I design a website for myself from time to time, but I never seem to be able to fill it with contents. If you could do the content part, then I could make the website. One of my old websites is still up and running, if you want to check it out. http://squarerpg.vze.com

I'm between projects right now, so I don't have alot to do :P

Eccles

03-19-2004, 01:38 PM

Yeah, I'll agree that your site was better than mine...prolly cause I put very little effort into mine :P

Would it be alright if I put my stuff together into a very simple site and then sent it all over to you so you could update it?
Seems kinda awkward, but its easier for me to do the simple HTML code than to explain it to you.

StarZander

03-19-2004, 02:47 PM

You mean you make the site with all it's contents, in a skeleton design, that you send to me, and then I make it look nice? That could work. :) But I don't work with frames. I hate frames. :P

Eccles

03-19-2004, 03:57 PM

Sounds good to me...

I only put frames in my site (and all sites I ever do) cause they get you +10 marks if you implement it in your AS Level ICT coursework.

so yeah, I'll see what I can do.

ifirit

03-19-2004, 04:04 PM

-edit2-
More silent hill 2 discussion...
If you notice, at the opening of the street that has the apartment buildings in it (Katz street, I believe) there're police barricades across the end. The little barricades with "POLICE! DO NOT CROSS!" tape.
What significance do you suppose this has?

Ah. The imfamous police tape that magically prevents you from crossing. I always thought that was kind of idiotic of James. Anyway, the tape is part of a deeper question as to why keep doors locked in SH2; why leave puzzles in James path; why block off certain sections of the town?

I've thought about it a little bit and with respect to the other games. In SH1, the reason these things were placed in Harry's path were to prevent him from going further, from seeking Cheryl/Alessa. They were made in a sense to push him back and to keep him out. Harry was not wanted there.

Yet, in SH2, James was, as some put it, "creating his own purgatory." James was in a sense trapping himself in his own judgement. So consequently, the town tried to keep him confined to the present situation. The doors were locked to keep James in, not out. Think about the first fight with Pyramid Head. Once you enter the room, the door locks. There was nobody outside to lock it, but we know it was done so that James had to face Pyramid Head. James was made to sit in the mess he made.

And as a funny consequence, if you choose a higher puzzle setting, you are, in a sense, choosing to confine yourself longer in the game. Essentially, you choose to be punished longer. Sad.

I'm still not certain why this is the case in SH3, but I really don't understand the plot entirely.

EDIT: Eccles, I'll be online for another hour.

Eccles

03-19-2004, 04:10 PM

Ah. The imfamous police tape that magically prevents you from crossing. I always thought that was kind of idiotic of James. Anyway, the tape is part of a deeper question as to why keep doors locked in SH2; why leave puzzles in James path; why block off certain sections of the town?
Actually, the tape is cut...
You pass through it on your way to Blue Creek...cause on the way you have to fight three straight jacket skins (Two walkers, one hiding under a car)

I've thought about it a little bit and with respect to the other games. In SH1, the reason these things were placed in Harry's path were to prevent him from going further, from seeking Cheryl/Alessa. They were made in a sense to push him back and to keep him out. Harry was not wanted there.
Or Harry WAS wanted there and Dhalia was not.
Remember how Alessa thanks Harry as she's dying?

And as a funny consequence, if you choose a higher puzzle setting, you are, in a sense, choosing to confine yourself longer in the game. Essentially, you choose to be punished longer. Sad.
oh niiiiiiice, I like that one :D

EDIT: Eccles, I'll be online for another hour.
Well I'm at college right now :P
They dont like you using MSN messenger.

And now I gots to get back to class.

ifirit

03-19-2004, 04:22 PM

Actually, the tape is cut...
You pass through it on your way to Blue Creek...cause on the way you have to fight three straight jacket skins (Two walkers, one hiding under a car)

I was assuming you knew what happened if you tried to avoid getting the radio and cross the police tape. It only breaks after you defeat the monster under the bridge. My reasoning is that it's not to let you through, but to release the monsters waiting behind the police tape.

Or Harry WAS wanted there and Dhalia was not.
Remember how Alessa thanks Harry as she's dying?

True, but I guess I was accounting for those who didn't believe that theory.

Well I'm at college right now :P
They dont like you using MSN messenger.

And now I gots to get back to class.

I'll be back later.

SlothropX

03-19-2004, 07:54 PM

Personally, I think that Maria was born from the mist and has the body of a monster (particularly the final boss). The town tried to bring Mary's soul into this body, which is why she has Mary's memories (expressed to James in the prison cell). The town, thoughout the game (both the main and sub-scenario), is communicating with Maria telling her about James and Laura and her "fate."

I think Ernest's question to Maria about whether she believed in fate or not is important in this matter. By not making the wishes or memories or whatever from the town not a part of her, but merely communicated to her, it allows Maria to choose her fate. Ultimately, she "chooses" to follow the town's call.

However, this is again a philosophical issue here. You could believe that she is not free to choose her path; that the memories of the town are inside her and eventually take over; that it is fate. So, really it is up to you to decide whether or not you believe in fate.

Still, it will then influence your theory about Maria in the rest of the game, because now we have to ask if Maria is acting on her own or just being puppetted by the town. Choose carefully and consider all the consequences.

I think that the distinction between the two options is rather slim. If Maria is acting on her own, but is created with a specific set of memories and desires, then it really isn't much different from being a puppet. It seems like the only reason Maria demonstrates "free will" at all in BFAW is that James is still distant, and her greater reason for being hasn't been called into focus yet.

Another concept is that the single bullet in the revolver is for James, and that only her meeting with Ernest causes Maria to toss aside her "fate" of seeking revenge for a crime she only has vague memories of.

The suicidal stripper theory works also, but I'm not too fond of it. I mean, if Maria were on some level a normal flesh-and-blood person, how is it she's killed repeatedly and comes back smiling? That she's a pure creation of the town in reaction to James's memories and guilt is a more acceptable proposition, in my opinion.

Eccles

03-20-2004, 03:07 AM

Starzander, ifrit and myself had a couple hours chatting today in which we came up with a bunch of ideas for the site.

Currently, the title of the page stands as "Brookhaven. Commit yourself"

And we've been discussing variious things which we can put on the site...currently, the majority of which falls to me :P

Star: I should have a skeleton site for the theories tomorrow. If I can take my laptop out with me, I'm sure I can.

Shoeless joe

03-20-2004, 05:43 AM

[quote=ifirit]
The suicidal stripper theory works also, but I'm not too fond of it. I mean, if Maria were on some level a normal flesh-and-blood person, how is it she's killed repeatedly and comes back smiling? That she's a pure creation of the town in reaction to James's memories and guilt is a more acceptable proposition, in my opinion.

I was just saying that the stripper Maria was a model/ vessel for the town's will. Since she's been overwritten by the town's will, it's pretty safe to assume that she's no longer alive but rather a meat puppet for the forces that be in the town, like the zombie nurses or pyramid head. It can be confusing at times but I only pieced it together from observations made from the SH2 2nd scenario and the poster seen in SH3. If there was no link with the poster to SH2, then why would the programmers have placed it there ? All we got to work with is the clues the guys at Konami left and like dectectives working on a case, our assumptions fill in the holes. As a more cynical person, my bias has coloured the situation differently than how you would of, in instances like the origins of the monsters and how Laura's reaction to them suggests how their act. The poin is that I'm not shooting you down here but rather telling you to keep all options open, since new evidence can appear and throw things into disarray. In this case, no single representation is 100% right for the game since none is given, so try to take everything you see on a forum like this with a grain of salt.

StarZander

03-20-2004, 01:44 PM

Holy crap. Silent Hill had more treasures than I ever imagined... People will exceed our bandwidth in a few minutes, just to see all the wonderful things we've found. Right, Eccles?

Firedrake

03-20-2004, 03:32 PM

On the suicidal stripper theory and coming back from the dead:
I'm taking the easy way out on this one, but it could be all considered a matter of perspective. Remember the holes James jumps through? Who's too say the fall wouldn't kill him (And I still like reffering to that Silent Hill ending. Hell would truly be not realising that you're dead already. Think about how big a mind-fuck it would be to wake up one day, faced by indescribable monstrosities when in fact you died the night before)? Essentially, the town is one huge mind fuck. We never actually see Maria getting stabbed by Pyramid Head's spear during the hospital chase scene (Remember, you get game over if she does die during the chase). As far as I recall, the only moment where you actually witness her death is near the end, with the two Pyramid Heads.
Finally, I don't think the demon in sheep's clothing theory works. In one ending, you actually face off Mary, not Maria. And we already established that Maria dies by the hand of the two Pyramid Heads.

Just my opinion, but I think that considering Maria as a normal person, not a monster, but who's being controlled and manipulated by the town to make James suffer is far more entertaining and amusing. Kind of adds to the humanity of it all. It's very possible that Maria loses it, hence the dialogue in the labyrinth, thanks to the towns influence (Remember, there too, you don't witness her die. You only find the body later). If anything, one thing that has to be known due to the way how monsters are perceived differently from person to person is that nothing should be taken at face value.

ifirit

03-21-2004, 06:32 PM

Major Silent Hill 2 Spoilers

On the suicidal stripper theory and coming back from the dead:
I'm taking the easy way out on this one, but it could be all considered a matter of perspective. Remember the holes James jumps through? Who's too say the fall wouldn't kill him (And I still like reffering to that Silent Hill ending. Hell would truly be not realising that you're dead already. Think about how big a mind-fuck it would be to wake up one day, faced by indescribable monstrosities when in fact you died the night before)?

Again, this is the major split in theories. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is just a matter of personal philosophy. There are those who think everything is just a projection of James' mind and those who believe that everything is real, but influenced by the town. I tend to believe the projection theory, but I also wanted to explore the other in order to gain a better perspective.

Essentially, the town is one huge mind fuck. We never actually see Maria getting stabbed by Pyramid Head's spear during the hospital chase scene (Remember, you get game over if she does die during the chase). As far as I recall, the only moment where you actually witness her death is near the end, with the two Pyramid Heads.

If Maria dies by James' hand, then she doesn't fullfill her purpose: to make James suffer by witnessing her taken away from him by another's hands. Also, the game is causal. If you don't do certain actions, other actions won't occur. Such as the roof of the hospital. Only when Maria is in room S3, does the door unlock. So consequently, if Maria doesn't make it to the elevator, it won't work. With no where to go, we presume James dies as well.

Finally, I don't think the demon in sheep's clothing theory works. In one ending, you actually face off Mary, not Maria. And we already established that Maria dies by the hand of the two Pyramid Heads.

Silly rabbit, you should realize that you fight Maria in every ending (excluding the Dog and UFO endings). Maria just pretends to be Mary. That is because James chooses Maria over Mary. Whomever James chooses by the end, Maria will act like the other. (It only happens that in only one ending James chooses Maria.) Maria is just playing the role of "Final Temptation."

Just my opinion, but I think that considering Maria as a normal person, not a monster, but who's being controlled and manipulated by the town to make James suffer is far more entertaining and amusing. Kind of adds to the humanity of it all. It's very possible that Maria loses it, hence the dialogue in the labyrinth, thanks to the towns influence (Remember, there too, you don't witness her die. You only find the body later). If anything, one thing that has to be known due to the way how monsters are perceived differently from person to person is that nothing should be taken at face value.

Just so you know, Lisa was also a monster. It didn't really make her any less human. ("I'm not the only one who's still walking around. I'm the same as them. I just hadn't noticed it before.") Maria was just a copy of Mary. I believe both flesh and soul, but she isn't Mary. ("The you that isn't you.") Though, her flesh happens to be made of monster parts, her soul is still genuinely human. Doesn't take any of the fun out of figuring her out, it just means that there is more to consider.

Eccles

03-22-2004, 07:23 AM

Holy crap. Silent Hill had more treasures than I ever imagined... People will exceed our bandwidth in a few minutes, just to see all the wonderful things we've found. Right, Eccles?
heehee...yep.
Like I told you, pretty much everything in Silent Hill 1 is a vague reference to something else (Triforce anyone?)

SlothropX

03-22-2004, 09:58 PM

I was just saying that the stripper Maria was a model/ vessel for the town's will. Since she's been overwritten by the town's will, it's pretty safe to assume that she's no longer alive but rather a meat puppet for the forces that be in the town, like the zombie nurses or pyramid head. It can be confusing at times but I only pieced it together from observations made from the SH2 2nd scenario and the poster seen in SH3. If there was no link with the poster to SH2, then why would the programmers have placed it there ? All we got to work with is the clues the guys at Konami left and like dectectives working on a case, our assumptions fill in the holes. As a more cynical person, my bias has coloured the situation differently than how you would of, in instances like the origins of the monsters and how Laura's reaction to them suggests how their act. The poin is that I'm not shooting you down here but rather telling you to keep all options open, since new evidence can appear and throw things into disarray. In this case, no single representation is 100% right for the game since none is given, so try to take everything you see on a forum like this with a grain of salt.

Developers do lots of things. It can be difficult to differentiate between hidden truths and playful devs. I mean, the UFO or dog endings are ignored, when it comes to canonical SH2, because they're obviously just silly. A poster in SH3 with the name of a char in SH2, while cute, has a similar lack of significance, in my opinion. And remember, these games are developed by relatively large groups of people, so a little joke by an environmental texture artist doesn't necessarily mean that the game's director had deep implications in mind.

If the poster had shown up in SH2, then I'd agree fully. But in the same way Harry in the UFO doesn't change SH1, the poster doesn't really change SH2, in my opinion. But there is obviously no right answer here, and I respect the Maria/stripper theory as a possible explanation.

SlothropX

03-22-2004, 10:24 PM

Again, this is the major split in theories. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is just a matter of personal philosophy. There are those who think everything is just a projection of James' mind and those who believe that everything is real, but influenced by the town. I tend to believe the projection theory, but I also wanted to explore the other in order to gain a better perspective.

Well, I personally think that there's no reason to take a black and white view of things. James projects most of the stuff, but I think it is reasonable to say that Eddie, Angela, and (likely) Laura aren't projections. Maria is a projection, but one with a nasty streak when James decides he doesn't need her anymore.

Silly rabbit, you should realize that you fight Maria in every ending (excluding the Dog and UFO endings). Maria just pretends to be Mary. That is because James chooses Maria over Mary. Whomever James chooses by the end, Maria will act like the other. (It only happens that in only one ending James chooses Maria.) Maria is just playing the role of "Final Temptation."

MARY: James. Ive been waiting.

JAMES: Mary. Im sorry I took so long

MARY: Didnt you want to see me?

JAMES: Yes I wanted to see you, even an illusion of you...thats
why I came here.

MARY: Its not true...is it? You killed me.

JAMES: I couldnt watch you suffer.

MARY: Dont make excuses James (cough)I know I was a burden on you.
You must have hated me. Thats why you got rid of me.

JAMES: Its true. I may have had some of those feelings. (pause)
It was a long three years. I was...tired...

MARY: Thats why you needed this Maria person? James...do
you really think I could ever FORGIVE YOU FOR WHAT
YOU DID?!?

(Mary transforms into a demon and James fights and kills her)

I don't know where you get "Maria pretending to be Mary" from all of that. In that ending, James has accepted Maria, and so she has no reason to have a fake-Mary attack him.

Just so you know, Lisa was also a monster. It didn't really make her any less human. ("I'm not the only one who's still walking around. I'm the same as them. I just hadn't noticed it before.") Maria was just a copy of Mary. I believe both flesh and soul, but she isn't Mary. ("The you that isn't you.") Though, her flesh happens to be made of monster parts, her soul is still genuinely human. Doesn't take any of the fun out of figuring her out, it just means that there is more to consider.

Fair enough. The only trick with Maria is that she isn't formed from another person as Lisa was, but instead by James's memories/desires/guilt. While Mary and Maria are "similar", they always regard each other as an entirely different person, actually as adversaries in most endings. That wouldn't make sense, if Maria had Mary's soul or somesuch.

HorrorgasM

03-23-2004, 12:00 AM

ifirit

03-23-2004, 07:06 AM

Well, I personally think that there's no reason to take a black and white view of things. James projects most of the stuff, but I think it is reasonable to say that Eddie, Angela, and (likely) Laura aren't projections. Maria is a projection, but one with a nasty streak when James decides he doesn't need her anymore.

Though you may see no reason to consider that things are real. The developers have introduced it into the series. It remains a likely possibility. SH1 teeterred on the edge of whether it was real or not. Likely, that theory might have been kept in mind while creating this game. Besides, with the release of SH3, we have to keep it open since is seems very unlikely that Silent Hill (the one from the games) is an illusion, at least not entirely.

Also, because of certain inconsistencies in adhering to only one of the two theories, it's best to keep the opposite in consideration.

Silent Hill 2 Spoilers

I don't know where you get "Maria pretending to be Mary" from all of that. In that ending, James has accepted Maria, and so she has no reason to have a fake-Mary attack him.

This is one of the most subtle aspects of the game. You have to assume that this is the first ending most people will view, but it should also be held in context with the other endings. Besides, you should also take in what James says afterwards:

Maria: "You killed Mary again?"
James: "That wasn't Mary. Mary's gone. That was just something I... Maria?!"

Also, think about every ending in context. What does Maria wants James to do? Maria wants James to choose her. Maria wants James to accept her completely. How do you suppose James prove this to Maria? Could he, oh say, kill Mary again? That might show that he doesn't want Mary. (A little greek tragedy for you.) However, Mary's gone. How can James kill Mary if she isn't here? Who, oh who, will ever play the part of Mary? If only there was someone around who looked exactly like Mary.

Anyway, think about what he also says in the Maria ending.

Maria: "What about Mary?"
James: "It's okay. I have you."

Fair enough. The only trick with Maria is that she isn't formed from another person as Lisa was, but instead by James's memories/desires/guilt. While Mary and Maria are "similar", they always regard each other as an entirely different person, actually as adversaries in most endings. That wouldn't make sense, if Maria had Mary's soul or somesuch.

Mary and Maria are two different people. Like I said, Maria is a copy. Think of it as astral cloning. In cloning, you used a single source (the nucleus) and implant it into another form (a blank egg). The original person stays intact and you create the copy using completely different materials, i.e. "monster parts."

In James' case, the nucleus was his wish. His wish to be with Mary again. However, this again is still playing into the "it might be real" theory. In respect to the "it might be a projection" theory, Maria's core is most likely made up of James' memories/desires/guilt. Her physical is not real, but due to the strong effects of his psyche, James believes what he feels is real.

However, again, this can also be applied to every aspect of the game, if you choose to believe this aspect. Everything James sees, hears, feels could be an illusion created by his mind. This is a consequence of choosing this theory. This also means that the endings are all illusions too. So, be careful to which theory you adhere, because you may not be happy in the end.

Anyway, back to what you were saying about Maria and Mary beings "adversaries." Actually, this isn't entirely accurate. A better way to say it might be that Maria was competing for James' attention. (Mary really isn't putting any effort into competing with Maria.) To say this implies that the two are in a struggle over James.

Maria is a person all her own (to an extent). She is fighting James' memory of Mary, so she is trying to exploit the bad memories that James has of Mary. She wants to say she is better than Mary so James will choose her. However, she still isn't perfect. She does yell at James; she does make him feel bad, though maybe not all because she wants to. And in a way, she is deluting herself. (Funny, huh? A delusion deluting itself.)

Still, I could be biased. There are so many interpretations of this love-triangle possible. I really haven't taken in all the information from the game yet and I really hate to get into Maria/Mary discussions at this point, because I haven't considered every angle. However, it is at the heart of the game, which makes it unavoidable.

ifirit

03-23-2004, 08:41 PM

Silent Hill 3 Spoilers

I was revisiting SH3 yesterday and I was trying to figure out exactly how Harry (the man who defeated "god") could have been killed so easily. I don't exactly know, but from the scene, it didn't look like Harry put up a struggle.

First, let's consider how he was killed. From the blood splatter, it looks like he was stabbed through the chest, either in the heart or lung. The blood stains on the back of the chair show that the bleeding came from the upper torso. Also, because the stains are on the back of the chair, it looks like the wound went all the way through Harry's chest. Had it not, the stains would not have appeared on the back since he was facing forward.

In addition to this, from the large amount to blood directly in front of the chair, it seems that Harry was not sitting down when he was killed. It appears that Harry was standing up when the monster killed him. It also appears that he was attacked from the front, and not the back, because if he had been attacked from behind, the blood trail would have lead from the back of the chair to the patio, rather than from the front of the chair to the patio. (I also believe that he was not killed while sitting down, because there is no damage to the chair.)

After he was attacked, Harry probably then sank into his chair which is probably why he looks like he had just sat down when Heather finds him. Due to the small amount of space in the living room, at least where Harry was killed, the monster might have come out of Heather's room. Had Harry been sitting down, he would have most likely stood up at seeing the monster.

Likely, this was a quick death for Harry. However, nothing is certain, since we don't know the events that occured before Harry's death. But if Harry did have a chance to react, why isn't there more signs of struggle? How did a monster get inside Heather's room? Was Claudia present at the murder scene? Would she have wanted to?

[/Spoilers]

Strange, but it seems like there is an evolution in the subjects of the games. SH1 felt like an interpretation of philosophy/existance; SH2 felt like an interpretation of psychology/the psyche; while SH3 felt like an interpretation of poetry (not just because of the puzzles either). The main subject seemed to be the effects of love & hate, how easily we can betray each other in search of love. Very poetic.

It seems like the progression is to go from very broad, abstract concepts to more finite, definative ones. I wonder if SH4 will follow this tend. Only time will tell.

Sentora

04-01-2004, 07:38 PM

Just maybe ifirit...Heather was the killer. :twisted:

This is just a little randomness after reading your post, I'll do a better explanation later but it's possible that, just like at the mall, heather's little passenger started turning the apartment all ASH and Harry, caught by surprise, got wacked before he could react in time...or simple could not kill his daughter....

Just a thought. :twisted:

StarZander

04-01-2004, 08:24 PM

I would just like to say that I just watched a documentary of sort about Silent Hill 3, that I have on dvd. Maybe several of you have it also, but they include alot of inside information on the monsters, and scenes and certain elements of the game. Very interesting to fans of the series. I will be taking screenshots from the dvd, and type up a complete script of the interviews and such, so that even those without the dvd, can enjoy the freebies.

All this, and much much more, will be available on the upcoming site Brookhaven, made by myself, Eccles and ifirit.

[/Commercial]

Eccles

04-01-2004, 08:41 PM

Currently clocking up 13 a4 pages of silent hill 1 theories, links, rumours, glitches and other doodads...

Lynsent

04-02-2004, 11:10 PM

Silent Hill = great at the time

Silent Hill 2 = one of the best horror games ever! awesome story, awesome atmosphere, and while its a pain to actually get the dog ending, go get it its hilarious!

Silent Hill 3 = kind of cool that it continued the plot of SH1, but overall nothing new or that exciting

Silent Hill 4 = looks like its gonna be really cool, go check out the trailer NOW!

True... But the katana available as normalweapon in SH3 kinda excited me **blush**
As for SH4, I still can't understand what the main idea is with the "room" concept.... :?

Eccles

04-02-2004, 11:59 PM

As I understood from the trailers, it's about a guy going mad in his apartment block.

To be honest, it looks like Silent Hill is turning into resident evil...only with a good reputation...

Anyways, I sent 13 pages of material to Starzander and Ifrit to use in the construction of the site.
I have also been drafted to do the sections on monsters, characters and storyline (possibly the walkthrough also, if I can find time)

Lynsent

04-03-2004, 12:56 AM

As I understood from the trailers, it's about a guy going mad in his apartment block.

To be honest, it looks like Silent Hill is turning into resident evil...only with a good reputation...

Yeah... considering the fact that Silent Hill 3 didn't take place in Silent Hill (except for the last 1/4 of the game) and this "room" story, we definitely can wonder why it's still named Silent Hill...
btw, I'll have to give Forbidden Siren a try....

NOTA : For SH3, it's obviously just called so because it follows the lines of SH1..

NOTA 2 : I'm really looking forward to seeing your site, guys ^^

Dr. Marius

04-03-2004, 01:16 AM

Yes, it is true, I have nothing to add to the conversation at hand. However, I saw the discussion title, and had two put in my two cents:

I recently beat the first Silent Hill game for the first time, without any walkthroughs or anything, and was amazed when I went to gamefaqs and found out how much more I can do with the game. I mean, I really love that I'm going to have a lot more fun with this game while I'm playing through Silent Hill 2. Endings and weapons to unlock.... I love that.

Night10194

04-04-2004, 03:25 AM

I always had the strangest of theories about Maria. When I came up with mine, it made me so sad I cried a bit, even.

I always had a theory that Maria is entirely a creation of the town, but that she is, indeed, a free-willed human. Certainly, the town revives her when she dies at the hands of the Pyramid Heads, but even then she is still human. She seems actually confused that she has some of Mary's memories, even. She's a human who was called into existance in a place full of nightmarish monsters and hellish pain, constantly being killed again and again to punish James. Now, the force that created her keeps telling her that she'll eventually leave this hell with him, have someone who will love her and protect her (Remember what she tells him in the hospital? "You were supposed to take care of me...!"), and who will take her away from all this. In return, she'll make him happy again, help heal him...but then, when it comes to that, he doesn't do what he's supposed to. He realizes what has happened, and realizes he can't accept her and still atone for his crime. This is why she attacks him, in grief and desperation, but not why she becomes a monster. It's James's altered perception of her, his knowledge that the town did, indeed, create her, and his knowledge of what the creations of the town ARE (demons and horrors) that transform her into a monster. Certainly, he HAS to see her like this in order to ever be able to sever his connection to this evil town and to atone for his sin. But it remains that Maria was human, and that her one hope of escape and happiness not only was forced to cast her aside, but also came to see her as a demon, and even something he needed to kill violently.

Sad, huh?

StarZander

04-05-2004, 11:38 AM

*Site info* All I need now is a decent webhotel, with alot of bandwidth... There were alot more pictures than I expected, because of the DVD's that we have. Preferably it should be free... for now. Depending on how popular it will be, we might expand to a better one.

Does anyone know any good webhotels?

ifirit

04-09-2004, 01:24 PM

In conjunction with the SayMail thread, I've been making little animations using Silent Hill characters. They're okay, not really impressive, but still fun to check out. I'm thinking about learning to use flash, so that I can do full body animations. Anyway, here they are:

Cheryl (http://saymail.sympatico.ca/service/RetrieveCard?id=fSs.ChIj2bg6AlJBtv.Cqq)
Mary (http://saymail.sympatico.ca/service/RetrieveCard?id=tOE4Vykj2bg9QBJBtv.Cqq)
Douglas (http://veepers02.budlight.com/service/RetrieveCard?id=F72BA822-8A1C-11D8-903D-B3EE4054966E)
Henry (http://saymail.sympatico.ca/service/RetrieveCard?id=dplfLBwj2bgwqSslMrMkvG)

Have fun.

Eccles

04-15-2004, 04:50 PM

roight!
I got me a copy of silent hill 3.
And I've been playing it a lot...and it kicks ass.

PS: Bump

Doulifée

04-15-2004, 04:59 PM

roight!
I got me a copy of silent hill 3.
And I've been playing it a lot...and it kicks ass.

PS: Bump

Good travel throught silent hill Eccles....

Map,radio, lamp, red pen, steel pipe.. Ok let's go :wink:

Eccles

04-15-2004, 05:57 PM

Dont forget the unlimited sub-machine gun.
Makes the perfume almost worthwhile...

Doulifée

04-15-2004, 05:58 PM

Dont forget the unlimited sub-machine gun.
Makes the perfume almost worthwhile...

beamsaber and heather bean are fun too ...

got the god of thunder costume? i like heather look with it

Eccles

04-15-2004, 06:27 PM

I do indeed have the GodOfThunder outfit.

I had a list of outside references in Silent Hill 3...these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

1) Yura-Sama (The drummer from Psycho Le Cemu (www.psycholecemu.jp)) is on one of the posters in the book store.
2) The haunted house is named "Borley Haunted Mansion". Borley rectory is supposedly the most haunted house in the world (in fact, there's a picture of Borley rectory on the signpost for the haunted house. It can be seen here (http://unexplained-mysteries.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=12)
3) The picture in the confessions booth is the picture that Julian Lennon drew which served as the inspiration for the song "Lucy in the sky with diamonds"
4) We've covered the bit about the fairy being from Zelda
5) On one of Heather's jackets it says "something wicked this way comes" which is the title of a book by, I believe, Dean Koontz (who has a street named after him in SH1)

And thats it for now.

Also, what in the HELL is that weird thing that you see throughout the game...the one turning the valves and hanging nurses and so on...

Doulifée

04-15-2004, 06:30 PM

it's supposed to be valiel if i remenber well.... turning the valve of destiny...

Eccles

04-15-2004, 06:36 PM

Roight...and where does throttling nurses come into it?

Doulifée

04-15-2004, 06:50 PM

Roight...and where does throttling nurses come into it?

I dunno..... Good question i have no answer to that..
Are the girl really nurse? they wear long red robes for me (in the intro)

StarZander

04-15-2004, 06:56 PM

it's supposed to be valiel if i remenber well.... turning the valve of destiny...

Actually it's supposed to represent the change between the regular Silent Hill, and the "Nightmare Silent Hill". That's what they said in the interviews in that documentary atleast...

Doulifée

04-15-2004, 06:58 PM

You mean it's like a gatekeeper?
(well you can see that guy when you shift the reality)

StarZander

04-15-2004, 07:06 PM

You mean it's like a gatekeeper?
(well you can see that guy when you shift the reality)

Well, yeah kinad like that I guess. I don't know if they made that connection a little too far fetched though... You probably won't think about it, unless you're told about it. Atleast I didn't :P

Doulifée

04-15-2004, 07:10 PM

that don't explain the girl on top. i wonder what that mean?

Eccles

04-15-2004, 07:24 PM

Roight...and where does throttling nurses come into it?

I dunno..... Good question i have no answer to that..
Are the girl really nurse? they wear long red robes for me (in the intro)
Yeah...there're parts of the game when you can see him strangling nurses

Doulifée

04-15-2004, 07:25 PM

where exactly (if you can remember?) i don't remenber this.

Eccles

04-15-2004, 10:51 PM

In the chapel.

At one point if you look left, through the mesh wire you can see him holding a nurse by the neck and picking her up before throwing her back down.

Also, if you look at certain points, you can see him with nurses covered with a big red curtain (I'm assuming theyre nurses owing to the groans they make)

Doulifée

04-16-2004, 04:16 PM

i 'll try to take a closer look to this in my next replay :wink:

phantomINTELLECT

04-16-2004, 05:33 PM

Sucks, kinda like the fish...WOOT 50 posts

Eccles

04-16-2004, 10:17 PM

umm...what?

ifirit

04-17-2004, 09:06 PM

Silent Hill 3 Spoilers

Ah. The mystery of Vatiel. Some people believe that he is the gatekeeper to the Alternate dimension (or worlds) of Silent Hill. Others believe that he is the true follower of the Holy Mother. Still, there are those who believe that he is the watcher and protector of God Herself.

In order to understand this strange creature better, let's look at where we meet Vatiel and the things he is doing when we see him.

1) We first see Vatiel in the elevator in the Alternate Square Center Shopping Mall. There are multiple shots of Vatiel during the sequence in which we see Heather gasp. You must keep a sharp eye to see each shot. The first is of Vatiel standing in front of (under?) another strange creature identified as a Spider. We also see him shaking his head and walking(?) in a corridor. This is a suggestion that there are more than one Vatiel.

2) Later, we see Vatiel in the Alternate Hilltop Offices, after you have solved the painting puzzle. You must use the camera to adjust your view. He seems to just stand there and watch you.

3) The next time we meet Vatiel is in the Alternate Brookhaven hospital, after going through the "door at the end of the second floor." He is turning the value. A dead nurse hangs above him.

3a) From camera hacks, we've learned that Vatiel is also behind the smokey glass on the second (or was it third?) floor of the Alternate Brookhaven hospital. You have to look very carefully. Again, Vatiel is playing (if you want to call it that) with a nurse. (The painting behind them is "The Light Illuminating the Darkness." wink,wink.)

3b) The creature trapped in the locker, has a strong resemblence to Vatiel. Whether it is him or not is up to you to decide. (Personally, I think it is Vatiel.)

4) We meet Vatiel again in the Alternate Chapel/Nowhere. The most prominant spot is where Vatiel is turning the value with the two curtains (dresses?) and legs are beside him. Someone said that this was a metaphor from the first game of Alessa and Cheryl being brought together under Samael. Very interesting to think about.

4a) We see Vatiel crawling along the floor in some small tunnels in two hallways of the Alternate Chapel/Nowhere. This is also a possible metaphor for the subservience of Vatiel to the religion or Heather.

4b) The next instance where we see Vatiel is in the hallway to Alessa's room. Vatiel is dangling a (dead?) nurse in a metal-grating tunnel. It's hard to say why he is doing it or for what purpose, since we cannot determine his actions outright. However, from the way his actions are performed, either Vatiel is playing with the nurse for sick enjoyment, or he is trying to kill it out of protection (for himself or Heather, I don't know). Still, this brings up a good theory, which I'll explain below.

4c) The last place we see Vatiel is just before the battle with "God?" Vatiel is crawling towards God? to cover it's face with the blanket/curtain. This protects God? from getting hit by Heather's bullets. This action suggests that Vatiel is in fact protecting the being within Heather and not Heather herself. This too is important.

5) Haha! You didn't think there were anymore instances where we see Vatiel, but there is one more. Whenever Heather is killed by a monster in the Alternate world, Vatiel will appear to drag Heather away. Heather will also be covered in the strange red blobs we see in the Alternate worlds. However, the one important fact that gets overlooked is that when you die in the Alternate world, the world changes back to the normal world (at least, everytime I've gotten this secret cutscene).

Vatiel seems to be a link to Heather and the Alternate world. Though, you may have already discerned that from knowing about Heather's "true self," Vatiel also plays a role in changing to the Alternate dimension. If all that was needed to change the world to the alternate was Heather, she would have probably stumbled upon it herself. Claudia seems to be able to control this ability in Heather, or at least it isn't directly caused by Heather herself. I believe that Vatiel is needed to make the change occur, alluding to the theory that Vatiel is a gatekeeper.

However, Vatiel seems to play a greater role than that in the story. Since Vatiel seems to be stalking Heather throughout the Alternate dimension, it seems that Vatiel also acts as a watcher to Heather. My instincts tell me that this is how the cult was able to see and know everything from the first game. I think Vatiel was there too.

I don't know if Vatiel is really a person or just a monster, but he seems to have a connection to the cult. I'm more inclined to think Vatiel is just a monster under the control of the cult (think about the trapped monster in Alternate Brookhaven), because his purposes don't really seem to have a direct affect on Heather. And as we all know, the monsters in Silent Hill try to have as direct an effect on you as possible. However, we also know that Vatiel's purpose is to protect the being inside Heather and not Heather herself, so Vatiel won't make any direct contact with Heather.

The only reason why Vatiel would protect god that I can think of is by order. The only people introduced who might have the power to order monsters is the Hope House Cult (the cult of Silent Hill). The evidence is from the Daisy Apartment complex, where Claudia orders a monster to kill Harry.

I don't think Vatiel is under the control of Claudia alone, because Vatiel doesn't appear at the beginning of the Alternate Hilltop Offices, just as Claudia doesn't appear there. Only Vincent appears there. Hmmm.

Doulifée

04-17-2004, 09:59 PM

thank for that ifirit.

btw, i know about valtiel during the game over screen. surprising to see this cut scene.

i need to replay and watch careful all that stuff. you need a sharp eyes to see everything hanging on the wall and corridor of SH.

off topic but the hospital corridor, with blood rain moving texture was totally awesome, like the tunnel in the metro, slowly covering with blood when you go downstair. :)

Eccles

04-18-2004, 12:17 AM

A list of the alternative death scenes that I have found in Silent Hill 3 (OMGSPOILERS)...

1) If you die in certain places, Valitel will turn up and drag you off (as has been said)
2) If you die in certain places, a closer will turn up and drag you off (The walkway in the alternative lakeside...thats the only place I've seen this one)
3) If you leave the subway train you get to see a lovely 1st person view of going under the wheels
4) If you dont electrocute the tentacle demon, he'll drag you under and kill you.
5) If you stay on the train tracks too long youll get squished (and hear a lovely crunching noise too)
6) If you dont take the Aglophoutis when fighting Claudia, you break out in a blood rash and die.
7) Falling down holes. Sucks, but it happens
8) If the nurses kill you, a puppet doctor turns up and drags her off
9) If you don't turn the power off on the lakeside roller coaster, youll get squished, just like the beginning.

And thats what I found (I was bored on my third playthrough so I just died as often as I could ^^)

04-18-2004, 12:13 PM

4c) The last place we see Vatiel is just before the battle with "God?" Vatiel is crawling towards God? To cover it's face with the blanket/curtain. This protects God? From getting hit by Heather's bullets. This action suggests that Vatiel is in fact protecting the being within Heather and not Heather herself. This too is important.

I always interpreted this quite differently. The hood that Vatiel places over God's head seems to retard her motion. If you look at her head during the battle, when she leans forward to swing her arms her head is held back by that hood. I always figured she'd be a more effective boss could she free herself from this restraint. My interpretation therefore would lean Vatiel more toward subservience to Heather, rather than God.

Just a thought.

Eccles

04-18-2004, 02:05 PM

Following on from M@'s ideas, it seems a little odd that Valtiel would not attack you when he has so many chances.

I therefore suggest that he is not a bad guy after all...

StarZander

04-18-2004, 02:19 PM

ifirit

04-18-2004, 08:39 PM

Silent Hill 3 Spoilers

According to the developers, in the documentary I have (and keep referring to), they spoke of the covering of her face like that, was a custom in many cultures when someone had died. That's what they said, and that's where they got it from. Not sure how that fits in with God, though, since he covers her face before you kill her.

It is possible that this is forshadowing. It might suggest that Vatiel has some foresight of the events of the game. Or it could be that Vatiel is morning the death of the Claudia who was probably killed when God? was "born." I suggest that Claudia is killed when she "gives birth" to God? because Heather gets a game over sequence if you don't prevent it's "birth." Suggesting that she dies.

My biggest problem with this is then, why doesn't Heather get reborn like in the first game? Was doesn't God? also get reborn when Heather kills it? It's bothered me since the first time I played this game. Was there something special about the first game that sets it apart the second? Think about the two sequences.

Primary Assumptions: First, we need to assume that Harry gets the Good Ending in SH1 (not the Good+ Ending). The reason is that if Cybil were saved, Harry would not have the Aglaophotis (sp?) to give to Heather. (Tragic. Save your friend or save your daughter?) Also, the reason it is the Good Ending is that Harry doesn't get a baby in the Bad Endings, obviously.

Okay, in SH1, Dr. Kaufman uses the Aglaophotis on Alessa/Cheryl. This causes Incubus/Samael to be extracted from Alessa/Cheryl. When you defeat the Incubus/Samael, Alessa/Cheryl reappeared and created her incarnation, which is later known as Heather.
In SH3, Heather uses the Aglaophotis on herself to extract God? (in fetus form). Claudia eats it and tries to give "birth" to it. When Heather defeats God?, nothing happens (well, in the Normal Ending). God? is dead and that's that. Why didn't the same thing happen again? Why wasn't God reborn in a reincarnation of Claudia?

The only thing that might suggest something happens after you kill God? is in the Possessed Ending. After Heather kicks the crap out of the dead God?, we see her turn around just as the scene fades to black. We then see Heather reappear in the Amusement Park, with a knife, having just killed Douglas. A cold blank look is on her face. If Heather really is possessed, by whom or what is she possessed? God?, Vatiel, or something else? If I could explain that part, I might be able to explain why God? doesn't get reborn.

Doulifée

04-18-2004, 09:04 PM

wel incarnation take year, as you see from sh1 to SH3.
maybe a new incarnation is somewhere. the question is have you kill the god really?
and about the possessed ending, i suppose it's the influence of god?/valtiel? that took over heather (supposition, could it be possible, the god is anew in her womb to reborn again?)

Infinite HP

04-18-2004, 09:23 PM

Ok, I haven't looked through all the pages so I don't know if this has been asked (or mentioned by others) before, but I'm curious. SH1 was absolutely awesome as far as scare tactics go. It was very creepy and eerie, and the first time I played it was with the lights off...so my question is, what other kinds of games would you recommend that go along the same sort of lines as this game? Keep in mind though these two criteria:

1.) I'm looking for games for the PSone, or N64 if there are any...

2.) I'm talking games that have good gameplay and can be enjoyed the same way as SH1 (in a dark room).

Thank you for tolerating me if this has been asked before... :wink:

Eccles

04-18-2004, 10:08 PM

Primary Assumptions: First, we need to assume that Harry gets the Good Ending in SH1 (not the Good+ Ending). The reason is that if Cybil were saved, Harry would not have the Aglaophotis (sp?) to give to Heather.
Not true.
It's very rare, but it still grows somewhere out in the desert. It says so when you read up on it (in Cheryl's old room from SH1)

StarZander

04-18-2004, 11:14 PM

Wait... I though it was the mother of God who was reborn over and over. When Alessa burns to death, Cheryl appers... When you defeat Alessa/Cheryl in SH1, a new baby appears, who will become Heather. But in SH3, it was God who was killed... If Heather was killed, she would be reborn, right?

Eccles

04-19-2004, 07:22 AM

When Alessa burns to death, Cheryl appers...
Alessa doesnt burn to death, though.
Remember? Lisa made a video about it...the "Still has an unusually high fever" one.
The reason that it created Cheryl was because Alessas body went through so much pain that half the soul was driven out (which is a belief in many cultures. Put the body in enough pain and the soul will eventually call it quits and leave)
And thats why they burned Alessa...to drive her soul out so that they had an empty shell for Samael to come into (also as a sacrifice to show allegience to him)

This is also why Cheryl is so desparate to go with Harold (heehee...Harold. You can see why he prefers Harry, cant you?) back to Silent hill, because somewhere in her mind she knows what's there and she knows that she can become one with Alessa again if she goes there.

ifirit

04-19-2004, 09:19 AM

Silent Hill 1 and 3 Spoilers

Wait... I though it was the mother of God who was reborn over and over. When Alessa burns to death, Cheryl appers... When you defeat Alessa/Cheryl in SH1, a new baby appears, who will become Heather. But in SH3, it was God who was killed... If Heather was killed, she would be reborn, right?

That was my question. However, something changed during SH3. I'm not quite sure what changed that ended this sequence of reincarnation, but it has something to do with Claudia's involvement/interjection.

Primary Assumptions: The Mother of God is not Alessa nor Cheryl, but the combined form of the two. See, in any of the endings, Dahlia combines the two half-girls* together to form Alessa/Cheryl in the white robe. This is the Mother of God; this is St. Alessa. Only this combined form seems to have the power of reincarnation.

*This follows my theory that each girl only contains half the soul of the god (aka Samael). Each one becoming essentially a "half-girl."

As long as Heather is carrying god inside her, she is the Holy Mother. But, when she "aborted" god, Claudia took on the task of birthing Her; Claudia would then become the next Holy Mother. Yet, does this make Claudia capable of the same power as Heather/Alessa/Cheryl? Does she gain the power of reincarnation?

The most simple answer is: I don't know. Konami didn't reveal much about the events that followed the defeat of God?; it mostly left a lot of dangling questions. To answer these questions, we'll need the use of supplemental materials. Hint, hint. Honestly, the endings were the most disappointing aspects of the game. (Maybe the Greatest Hits Version will improve on this. *Keeps fingers crossed.*)

As a sidenote, I believe that girl we see all over town is Cheryl herself, as Dahlia suggests, but only with Alessa's form. I think this mostly because there are still two girls in the end, not just one. Also, we can see that Alessa doesn't really look like that in the "real life." Alessa is still burned and bandaged which is seen in the opening movie to SH1. The reason I believe that it is Cheryl with Alessa's form is most likely because of two things: 1) Alessa is other one shown in the end (if it were the other way around, Cheryl would have been beside the girl), 2) Cheryl had free movement around the town, while it appears that Alessa does not.

Dahlia mentions a spell being cast on Alessa that binds her, after she is captured by the Flauros. Because Dahlia uses the past tense, I think it was cast before Cheryl arrived to Silent Hill. Since Cheryl was not bound by this spell, I assume Alessa transferred her being to Cheryl, which gave the appearance of Alessa unscarred. This might also explain why the Alessa in the opening is moving, while the same Alessa in the endings looks like a corpse.

Please note that I don't think this is the same thing as what Dahlia does to combine the two girls, but it is slightly similar. Similar enough to harness the combined power of the two in order to form the town.

A good analogy, but maybe not well-known, is from the anime "Boogiepop Phantom: Evolution," specifically Episode 7 "Until Ure in My Arms." Anyway, this brother and sister gain strange powers. Though it seems the brother is the one who has the power, it is actually the cooperation of the two that achieves results. The sister allows the brother to use her power to "grant his wishes." One has the power but no control, while the other has control but no power.

Not true.
It's very rare, but it still grows somewhere out in the desert. It says so when you read up on it (in Cheryl's old room from SH1)

It is possible that Harry could have gained another piece of Agloaphotis after leaving Silent Hill. However, I find it highly unlikely. Even if Harry found the plant (which is referred in the book, from Alessa's hospital room), he did not have the knowledge to process it. Only Dr. Kaufman knew that, but he died in SH1.

I know you want to think Cybil is alive in the sequel (I want to, too), but from the things SH3 has shown us, it doesn't look so good. Even if she did survive, she probably got sick and died three years later anyway. [/jk]

StarZander

04-19-2004, 11:19 AM

When Alessa burns to death, Cheryl appers...
Alessa doesnt burn to death, though.
Remember? Lisa made a video about it...the "Still has an unusually high fever" one.
The reason that it created Cheryl was because Alessas body went through so much pain that half the soul was driven out (which is a belief in many cultures. Put the body in enough pain and the soul will eventually call it quits and leave)
And thats why they burned Alessa...to drive her soul out so that they had an empty shell for Samael to come into (also as a sacrifice to show allegience to him)

But... No, that can't be true. Not entirely atleast. If they burned Alessa to drive out half her soul, to make room for Samael... Where did she get her psychic powers from, that she was able to use before getting burned? It must be as ifirit says that Samael was already inside Alessa, and when she got torched, half the soul of Alessa/Samael left, and was reborn into Cheryl. Then at the end of SH1, they merge, and Samael is complete. But... Wouldn't Cheryl show some powers before Silent Hill aswell?

Doulifée

04-19-2004, 03:43 PM

i have read somewhere that alessa use her psi power to draw half of here soul away from Sh (and thus half of sameal soul?? ). Alessa don't want the birth of god. that why they have burn her, to maintain control over her.
the two splitted soul don't have any remanent psychic power left. they reappear because of cherryl reapparance in Silent shill

ifirit

04-19-2004, 07:35 PM

Silent Hill 1 & 3 Spoilers

But... Wouldn't Cheryl show some powers before Silent Hill aswell?

I wondered about that too. I think K. Gordon's notes might shed some light on this. According to the notebook Heather finds, we learn that Alessa came to school with bruises and scars (not deep ones, but noticable). Since it was suggested that she might have been abused, it might have been reason enough to draw out her power. Sounds like the book Carrie, where the girl was abused so much that it draw out her psychic/telekinetic powers. That is possibly what happened to Alessa.

Well, with Cheryl, that didn't happen. Cheryl was loved and cared for like any little girl should be. There really wouldn't have been a reason or source of pain to draw out her powers, so it is likely they remained dormant until she came to Silent Hill.

This can also carry through to Heather. Heather may have had the memories of Alessa and Cheryl, as well as the same power, she didn't show any sign of her power. Most likely again, since she was under the care of Harry, she was not put through a lot of pain. Since there was no abuse in her household, it is possible her power remained dormant, too. Until Claudia came along and drew it out.

Claudia talks about it too. "God's growing within you. You despise me, right?" (At the same time, Heather is holding her sides in pain.) Even after the first time, we can see Heathers eyes water and her voice tremble after meeting Claudia. Claudia is using pain, anger and sadness to "nuture" god within Heather. Though, Heather and Claudia later argue about the consequences of this method, it seems apparent that the godly powers or souls with a person must be drawn out by extreme emotions.

Even in James' case, we see that strong human emotions of pain, anger or despair can cause really strange things to happen in Silent Hill.

StarZander

04-27-2004, 12:45 PM

*BUMP*

Don't die on me!

Here, discuss the soundtrack of SH4: The Room. I think they did better than with SH3.

http://www.konamistyle.com/customfactory/sh4sp/

Tranquil Chaos

04-27-2004, 03:47 PM

Soundtrack? All I've heard is the "lullaby" from the trailor... If you know where I can get my hands on it, I must know.

m68030

04-27-2004, 03:50 PM

I mentioned this back at the start of this thread, and I've talked with
Eccles some..

I'm working on a Silent Hill themed MUD/MUSH and could use some help.
Anyone interested in this project, please IM me at SilentHillBBS

There would be a slowly expanding universe set in Silent Hill in which
multiple users can interact with one another and the universe of the
city.

Tranquil Chaos

04-27-2004, 03:51 PM

I'd be somewhat interested, though I've never used a MUD before...

StarZander

04-27-2004, 05:11 PM

Soundtrack? All I've heard is the "lullaby" from the trailor... If you know where I can get my hands on it, I must know.

Check the link in my post, yo. There is a flashplayer there, with soundclips from several tracks, including the track with vocals, which kicks ass.

Tranquil Chaos

04-27-2004, 08:32 PM

Wow... Akira Yamaoka can do no wrong. The SH4 stuff is freakin sweet...

Thanks for the link!

StarZander

04-27-2004, 08:36 PM

Wow... Akira Yamaoka can do no wrong. The SH4 stuff is freakin sweet...

Thanks for the link!

Lets just keep a discussion alive here, people! Now... The titles of the songs usually have some meaning... What can we make out of these? The last one says "Heaven's Night [Live]" which could mean that in the game, you will go to Heaven's Night, the bar that Maria worked at, and see a performance? That would be awesome.

Eccles

04-27-2004, 09:42 PM

Or that the piece was performed live...

StarZander

04-27-2004, 10:15 PM

Or that the piece was performed live...

Let me have my dreams, will ya? :)

Still Heaven's Night....

Eccles

04-27-2004, 10:42 PM

Oh youre just having maria fantasies. Come on, you know it's true...

StarZander

04-27-2004, 11:49 PM

oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, mariiiiiiia.... *drools*

Yeah.

Eccles

04-28-2004, 07:24 AM

Well then...

...umm....keep it up?
*shrug*

Does anyone have a link to the Silent Hill fan Calendar?
I did have one, but I lost it...It's ages old (its for 2000) but some of the artwork was pretty good.

StarZander

04-28-2004, 12:28 PM

Couldn't find it. I did, however, find a new calendar, for 2004. It's still in progress, but a few months have been released. http://mariasunderland.deviantart.com/

ifirit

04-29-2004, 12:53 AM

New SH4 Info:

Seems that the game play will be much harder in the next installment than in other games to date. There are also some new interesting stuff being added to the game.

Gameplay

Old Stuff:
- Power Swing bar (Attack using a strength meter, much like golf games.)
- Real-time weapon switch (Change weapons during gameplay, without going to the main menu.)

Some new stuff: (**Possible Spoilers**)
- No flashlight, no (portable) radio
- Certain monsters float, can pass through walls
- Puzzles and riddles will have an overall theme (This means puzzles may be connected.)

Really New Stuff: (Major Spoilers)
- Certain monsters can hurt you merely by their presence.
- Monsters can attack your weapons (Possibly causing you to drop them.)
- Certain monsters can disguise themselves as objects in the background
- Certain monsters cannot die (Yes, that is correct.)
- Using analogue control, Henry can attack in a realistic 3-D manner
- An icon will appear on screen, whenever you are near an object you can interact with.
- The weapon switch control will work the same as RE: Outbreak. (An on-screen menu will come up and you will search through your inventory.)

When you think about all these gameplay fighting elements together, it provides a greater challenge. Such as in previous games, if you were going to be attacked by a group of enemies, you could turn off the light and avoid a multiple onslaught. However, with no radio and no flashlight, targeting your enemy will be more difficult. Also, because enemies can attack your weapons, defensive strategy will become much more important.

In addition, now that monsters can pass through walls, the comfortable "safe spots" are gone. (You know, those places where you knew you could just rest a minute to calm your nerves before going to the next room. Not anymore.) You also have to deal with the sneak attack, since certain monsters can disguise themselves as objects. Other monsters cannot die leaving you with one option: running. But don't think that each monster has a certain single ability. Some have multiple. So, a PH that can walk through walls can be a likely possibility.

[/Spoilers]

Story and Characters

New Stuff: (**Possible Spoilers**)
- Cast will be larger than any previous SH game.
- Game will be longer than SH3.
- Storyline will have true multiple endings.

Really New Stuff: (Major Spoilers)
- A character will follow you during gameplay (like Maria)
- A certain connection to a previous SH cast member will be made.

I don't want to say too much because I don't want to spoil it for you or myself. However, I will say that story is not like any of its predecessors, yet, it will have some similar elements.

I did get ahold of an article describing the intro to the game as well as more particulars to the gameplay itself. The article was published by Eurogamer.net (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=55352).

[/Spoilers]

Have fun.

Tranquil Chaos

04-29-2004, 01:55 AM

I am really looking forward to sh4... Thanks for the info.

Eccles

04-29-2004, 06:55 AM

The game will be longer than SH3?
I should hope so, too...considering I can walk through SH3 in about a third of the time I can walk through the other two.

And I hope it'll be harder, too...
I only needed three saves when playing SH2...and two of them were because I needed to go get something to eat.

-edit-
Thinking about it, there's something in silent hill 3 which really confused me.
Around the town are little square shield-like things with facial features on them...some have mouths, some have ears, some have eyes...
What the hell do they do?
Do they represent something? Cause even I cant work it out and I'm one of the masters of obscure links...

ifirit

05-01-2004, 11:23 AM

Silent Hill 4 Spoilers & Minor Silent Hill 3 Spoilers

Rumor Control

Here are a few rumors I've heard while visiting a few sites and forums for SH4: The Room. (I wonder when people will start calling it SH4TR.) Anyway, there are possible spoilers if any of these rumor turn out to be true. So, **Possible Spoiler Warning**!

- There will be ten different "levels" or areas that Henry will explore.
- A special concert will take place during the game while playing "Waiting for You (Live At Heaven's Night)" featuring 1 of the following:
1) Melissa Williamson, singing talent for SH3 and now SH4, live as a music video.
2) A character from the game performing the concert.
3) A character from a previous game performing the concert.
- The is a connection between one of the characters from SH2 to the new game.
- There will be variations of the same creatures in the game, similar to SH1. (ex: Air Screamer --> Night Flutter)
- At on point you return to Toluca Lake and visit the Lakeside Hotel.
- A hospital will be an explorable area in the game.
- New weapons will include the following:
1) Wine Bottle
2) Bug Spray
3) Box Cutter
4) Baseball Bat
5) Golf Club
- Only one save point in the game.

There are lots more rumors and theories out there about SH4: The Room, but I chose to only list the most interesting of the bunch.

-edit-
Thinking about it, there's something in silent hill 3 which really confused me.
Around the town are little square shield-like things with facial features on them...some have mouths, some have ears, some have eyes...
What the hell do they do?
Do they represent something? Cause even I cant work it out and I'm one of the masters of obscure links...

I'm not quite sure which shield-like things you're refering to, but is this it (http://www.ferrago.com/image/2041/5)?

If it is, I'll approach your query. Though, I'm not aware of any specific references of these posters, there are a few ways to interpret the meaning. We can see that these are posters of parts of a person's head. A picture is just a representation of something else. Though, the most accurate way to do so nowdays, it is still a representation. Therefore, we could interpret it as a representation for a particular body part. Or more to the point, what those body parts represent.

You might choose to see them as representations of the primary senses: hearing, sight, taste, smell, touch. It could also be a representation of the lack of those senses, since we are only given the picture and not the sensation. It could also be a representation of lacking senses; since we only see one feature at a time, we might only be getting partial information. Only one sense is presented. This can have a disjointed effect, that sight is present without sound, or vice-versa. There are still other directions we can take this.

You may choose to see them as a representation of what people have as ideals. Since the smile is very happy and the teeth are in perfect shape. In other words, the representation of want we want ourselves or our environment to be. This topic was tossed around a little with both Heather and Claudia. Niether one held a great sense of self-esteem, so they might have kept a picture of their ideals in their heads. Though, I do admit that the pictures don't really match up with Heather's ideals, but more so with Claudia's.

There are a couple more ways to interpret it, but I'll reply when I've gotten some sleep. Besides, there is enough right now to go from.

However, on the topic of background object interpretation, discuss why there is no siren playing when Heather travels to the Alternate locations. It was present in SH1 & SH2 when the characters passed into the Alternate universe. Why not with Heather?

EDIT: In case anyone hasn't already heard, there are some new SH4: The Room updates available.

First, a new teaser trailer (http://www.sh2004.com) has been released by Konami before the official E3 trailer. Hopefully, we'll get the official scoop on the details on shipping to the US and Europe, bonus material included (or not included) with the game, and soundtrack info at E3.

Speaking of the SH4 Soundtrack, you probably already know about the sound clips released by Konami. For those who want to listen to them non-stop until the official soundtrack is released. You can download the clips all together here (http://www.konamistyle.com/customfactory/sh4sp/audio.swf). (Flash player is required.)

Lastly, for all the screenshots released up-to-date and organized very neatly, please visit this site (http://www.frozentears.net/matter/sh4). It also has a few references (It's never too early!) as well as some promotional material, including a very omnious and curious promotional T-shirt. Hmmm......

EDIT 2: SH4 Update. I'm sure many of you may have missed it, but a very special (and very strange) picture was released by Konami on the SH4: The Room website, www.sh2004.com. The picture appeared on May 5, 2004 for only 24 hours. (I guess the developer wanted to wish us a happy Cinco de Mayo.) Anyway, if you want to see the picture, you'll have to have to save this thread. Hahahahaaaaaa.....

Or just PM me.

Also, I have some ultra, super, blow-your-mind-crazy, never seen before in-game videos of gameplay for SH4: The Room.

Spoiler ALERT
The contents of what you are about to view will spoil a few small gameplay elements for you, which in-turn may break the surprise of certain things in the game. So, be warned. I mean it.

Alright. Let's get to it. You can find these clips here (http://www.angelfire.com/games5/silenthill4/). (This is an Angelfire site so bandwidth can very easily be consumed.) Please read the rest once you've viewed the videos.

If you'll notice in the first video, the sound effects made popular in SH2 and then 3 return in this game as well. Only a minor note. What's more important is that we finally see how the tunnel system works in the game and what it looks like. Please note that the creatures attacking Henry are not exactly mothes, but look very much so. Also, there is a very subtle detail that I will point out in the third video. Anyway, we get to see the first person perspective in Henry's apartment. I did notice the icons that pop-up whenever you are close to something you can interact with. Personally, I thought it would take away from the movie-style look of the game, but I hardly noticed it when I saw it in action; a good thing to know.

The second video also shows us some of the action elements with the ghosts and the in game weapon switch. It's a little clunky, but not something you can't get used to. We also have a confirmation that certain monsters cannot die. If you watch the video carefully, you'll notice that Henry shoots a ghost such that he "dies" (he makes the dying sound and falls over), but then just before the video ends, the monster gets back up. Ghosts cannot be killed!

The third video really gives us a taste of the gunplay in the game, as well as the weapon-switch system. It is now confirmed that the bar on the upper-left of the screen is your life meter. (A cheaters note: Even though there will be no radio, you can use the life meter to tell if monsters are nearby because it appears when you are close to combat.) The last thing I wanted to point out was the way Henry touches his forehead near the end of the video. As he touches his skull, the screen gets fuzzy and strange music plays. This is what I wanted to point out in the first video as well. This is a sign that monsters are closeby. I suspected it in the first video after it was pointed out in the third. The real confirmation of this is in the fourth video. It's brief and subtle, but there.

As Henry is getting attacked by the ghosts, just before he switches weapons, he touches his forehead again. He clearly does this each time a monster attacks him. Either that means Henry has some sort of psychic power that allows him to sense monsters, or the monsters are causing him mental as well as physical damage. We won't know for sure until the game is released now will we?

Eccles

05-10-2004, 11:27 AM

I just came out of lesson in which I wrote a little about who Laura is.
The main thing I wrote about was concerned with the following exchange:

James: What's a little girl like you doing here anyway?
Laura: Huh? Are you blind or somethin?

Most people use this line to assume that Laura has some deeper meaning for being in the game, but I have my own theory that it relates to James and Laura having met one another prior to the games release.

SH4 SPOILARS, OMG
As far as Henry goes, I would have to suggest he's related either to James or Angela. I say James because his name was flying back and forth when the game was released {though probably because James was supposed to be the main character in the game}. I say Angela because of his hair colour and the fact that Oroscoe is the only surname that really works with Henry as a surname. Henry Dombrowski is just stupid.

StarZander

05-10-2004, 11:33 AM

Eccles

05-10-2004, 02:34 PM

I just came out of lesson in which I wrote a little about who Laura is.
The main thing I wrote about was concerned with the following exchange:

James: What's a little girl like you doing here anyway?
Laura: Huh? Are you blind or somethin?

Most people use this line to assume that Laura has some deeper meaning for being in the game, but I have my own theory that it relates to James and Laura having met one another prior to the games release.

Well, if she spent alot of time with Mary in the hospital, then when James came to visit, he probably met Laura.
He DID meet Laura. In Mary's letter to Laura it talks about James. I can't remember the exact text but it's something along the lines of "Don't hate James, he's a sweet guy, he's just very quiet".

It's the same letter which says that Mary and James intend to adopt her...which explains why Laura leaves town with James in the Leave ending.

So in that respect, she serves (to James at any rate) as an incentive to carry on. Find out what happened and get a daughter, y'know?

Tranquil Chaos

05-10-2004, 03:12 PM

Ifirit, you're my new best friend.

StarZander

05-10-2004, 04:14 PM

I just came out of lesson in which I wrote a little about who Laura is.
The main thing I wrote about was concerned with the following exchange:

James: What's a little girl like you doing here anyway?
Laura: Huh? Are you blind or somethin?

Most people use this line to assume that Laura has some deeper meaning for being in the game, but I have my own theory that it relates to James and Laura having met one another prior to the games release.

Well, if she spent alot of time with Mary in the hospital, then when James came to visit, he probably met Laura.
He DID meet Laura. In Mary's letter to Laura it talks about James. I can't remember the exact text but it's something along the lines of "Don't hate James, he's a sweet guy, he's just very quiet".

It's the same letter which says that Mary and James intend to adopt her...which explains why Laura leaves town with James in the Leave ending.

So in that respect, she serves (to James at any rate) as an incentive to carry on. Find out what happened and get a daughter, y'know?

But why doesn't James remember her then?

Eccles

05-10-2004, 06:19 PM

There'd been three years since he last saw her.
That and he wants to repress everything that happened in Silent hill the last time he went (IE: Mary getting killed)

Warp Zone

05-11-2004, 05:28 AM

*skips over most of topic, avoids all spoilers*

the gameplay has been much more puzzle and exploration oriented than combative, and the atmosphere, imagery, and setting are strokes of genius that I as a horror writer am jealous as hell of.

I haven't played the game yet, but I keep hearing this and I finally just went out and got the game (will play it shortly....)

I dislike much of the survival horror genre's seeming persistance to rely on "shock value"- such as in Resident Evil. Now, I'm sure Silent Hill has some of this, but it sounds great if it doesn't become too commonplace. At least to me, those things aren't scary. Maybe for 1 second. Maybe for wondering when they'll come again.

But once the surprise is over, it's over. And in a game of finite length and finite scripted events, you can only have so many of those. And then what...on to the next game? This is why I see it being beneficial to move beyond just that type of gameplay and towards a richer level- where emotions and feelings, like uneasiness and fear, are expressed in a more meaningful and consistent way. Where just the atmosphere alone or seeing something wandering around can start making you sweat. Where you don't even have to be surprised once to be seriously scared in a game.

This is what I'm hoping Silent Hill delivers, or at least touches on. 8)

ifirit

05-11-2004, 08:33 AM

This is why I see it being beneficial to move beyond just that type of gameplay and towards a richer level- where emotions and feelings, like uneasiness and fear, are expressed in a more meaningful and consistent way. Where just the atmosphere alone or seeing something wandering around can start making you sweat. Where you don't even have to be surprised once to be seriously scared in a game.

This is what I'm hoping Silent Hill delivers, or at least touches on. 8)

It's funny that you say this, because the original and its predecessors do this. Personally, I think the first game was the master at it, not only because it was the first, but because it kept a theme throughout the game. It was a constant frightfest. Yet, it provided so many twists and turns to the idea of "scare tactic." There are the things that make you jump, but at the same time, the game has things that make you jump that aren't supposed to be scary at all. I can't count the number of times I've fired blindly at the fog because I thought something was there.

It's a great experience. I hope you enjoy it.

Silent Hill 2 Spoilers

There'd been three years since he last saw her.
That and he wants to repress everything that happened in Silent hill the last time he went (IE: Mary getting killed)

Actually, it doesn't say the last time James saw Laura, but we do know the time-frame to which most of the story took place. Still, there is a big chunk of time missing between when Mary got sick and when Mary died.

1.) James and Mary visit Paleville and South Vale.
2.) Mary gets sick and is diagnosed to live between 6 months and 3 three years.
3.) Mary meets Laura who possibly meets James.
4.) Laura's 8th birthday
5.) Mary writes letters to James and Laura (http://www.angelfire.com/scary/pyrokinesis/media/index.html). Mary plans to come home for a short stay. Gives letters to Rachel.
6.) James kills Mary. Blocks the last three years from his memory.
7.) Laura steals letters, runs away to look for Mary and goes to Silent Hill. Possibly taken there by Eddie.
8.) James goes to Silent Hill via South Vale.
9.) Maria wakes up.
10.) The rest of the story.

We know the time between Mary's letter to Laura and James' arrival in Silent Hill: about a week. Laura tells us so. It is quite possible that Laura's running away and Mary's death could have occurred on the same day or within two days. It is also possible that James' arrival at Lake Toluca and Maria's awakening occured simultaneously.

We know that James didn't visit Mary as often as he should have. So he must have spent that time elsewhere. Even so, James may have devoted the time he did spend with Mary strictly toward her and didn't give much attention to anyone else. "Who's Rachel?" ring any bells? When he blocked his memory of Mary's death, he probably believed that his time was spent elsewhere after Mary "died." So any people attacted to his visits to the hospital were probably blocked too.

There is still one more explanation as to why James doesn't remember Laura: his drinking. James admits to being a borderline alcoholic when you examine the liquor bottles in Heaven's Night. James probably spent most of his time drinking, instead of being by Mary's side. (Working at a bar has made me realize how much time you can waste on a $10 budget. A lot.) So, it is possible that James was either drunk or hungover during his visits to the hospital. This could excite his grumpy nature and also contribute to his lack of memory of anybody else associated with the hospital.

The truth is the is no real way to know why James didn't remember Laura, he just doesn't. Even after James remembers the truth about Mary, I'm not convinced that James even remembers Laura from the hospital. For all we know, Laura could still just be a figment of his imagination. That just depends on your beliefs of the story.

One last thing. Mary didn't really plan to adopt Laura, nor did James agree to such an arrangement. The letter states that IF things had been different, Mary (and Mary alone) was hoping to adopt Laura. Despite this, I think that having James adopt Laura does give him incentive to move on and helps carry on Mary's legacy. The intentions were correct; it's just the details that were messed up. I won't hold you to it.

The Master Maniac

05-11-2004, 08:41 AM

26 pages. Heh, I thought I liked Silent Hill. :) My current fave is the original, before it got a bit...weird. The voice-acting was really quite good, and the game felt distinctly American, and thanks to that felt like this could very well happen in some town down the road, you know? The game felt more fresh and interesting than most RE games, and the story had more beef to it than your average Living Dead movie rip (ie, Resident Evil.) I didn't much like the sequels, simply because they went a bit overboard with the strange cultural references and consequently lost a chunk of the game's originally "close to home" feel (you'll never look at hallways the same way again.) Silent Hill really resuscitated the sruvival-horror genre with a new kind of horror that didn't revolve around "big evil thing jumps through window," but rather through subjecting the player to a unique, psychologically-centric environment that is still underappreciated today. Wow--can't I run my mouth...

ifirit

05-11-2004, 09:38 AM

Wow. Another Kentucky resisdent on OCR. Woo-hoo!

I agree. The game had a huge depth to it that it did almost feel alive. But, like I said, that was because the game as a whole had a consistency to it that made it memorable. I think though, that the sequels had a greater Japanese influence than the original, but still tried to be American. That hodge-podge of cultural differences could have broken the illusion of the town-next-door. Still, it should be noted that none of the sequels have actually crossed the path of SH1.

SH2 is relatively close, with the Lakeside Hotel being a stone's throw away from the Lakeside Amusement Park. Though SH3 is supposed to follow Harry's trail in the Amusement Park, the vibe is just not the same. This may be due to the concept that Konami wanted to express; that the experience through Silent Hill is different for each person who visits.

You could always fall back on the reputation of Team Silent's liking to cutting corners. Especially now, with them trying to create a new game in a shorter amount of time each sequel. I don't think it's easy to create the same kind of world if your deadlines get shorter and shorter.

But, I've noticed something about the fans of Silent Hill from talking to them and listening to the forums. There seem to be two schools of fans: the SH1 school and the SH2 school. In other words, those who came into the series through the first game versus those who were exposed to the sequel. The SH1 fans are more hardcore about the plotline and fright-factor of the games, while the SH2 fans focus on the story and well-being of the characters themselves.

Realizing this, I found myself in the SH1 catagory, but at the same time opening myself up to the SH2 side. Both are fun and neither is bad, but it does influence how you view the other games. Some say that SH2 wasn't a scary enough atmosphere, while others say that SH1 was too hard to relate to. I don't want to judge anyone this way, but it is important to think about how you view the games when trying to compare one another's views.

The Master Maniac

05-11-2004, 10:49 AM

What the hell do you mean, "woo-hoo," dammit?! lol, seriously though, I really do get where you're coming from. Though I enjoyed all three SH games immensely, and have in fact become a bit of a hardcore fan of the series (I'm listening to Silent Hill: Nay Tomorrow right now, man!) I have to say that the original just feels more like...er, Silent Hill. It's hard to describe, but the feeling of treading about a creepy, fog-laden town filled with things that would very much like to make you lunch is better realized in the original, and the bizarre, alien feel of the story resonates as much more creepy simply because it's so darn different than what you find in most games. I gotta hand it to Konami, they made a game that challenges the minds of its players still today, and continues to have us guessing as to what final, conclusive link the series-ending game will reveal, where the story weaves the incredibly different plots of each of the so far three different characters together, and what final mystery will be solved, finally showing us what each and every little clue actually MEANS. I mean, look at how many replies there are in this forum--it's just like Half-Life in it's peak. Silent Hill is THAT different, and THAT intriguing. It's not about blowing away mutated freaks (though that's in there for a nice effect) or running for your life (there, also in occasion,) but is rather more about discovering the hidden secrets of each character, every one having his or her own story to tell, which the player gradually learns about in sometimes disturbing ways, and therefore makes the series that much more compelling. A survival-horror game with CHARACTER?! Hm...discuss.

By and large, Silent Hill has affected a lot of us in the light that the game itself broadened our perspective of horror. Those dumb slasher movies (which might've terrified the hell out of us a few years before Silent Hill's release) now just seem stupid having witnessed something completely different, which actually uses the eccentricities of the mind to instigate fear, which Silent Hill does quite well. Instead of using buckets of blood and gore to chill you, Silent Hill actually taps into the subconscious, using horror effects from the likes of childrens' books or such out-of-the-norm sources of media to leave its own mark in the genre. Of course, it's not a particularly terrifying game, and it's really not meant to be, but it does on it's own end make you think, and the chills you get walking down a long, dark hall aren't entirely from the dread of accidentally stumbling upon a hellish apparition, but rather stem from the morbid anticipation of what strange new direction the plot will take once you go through a door to meet a pivital character another time. Its that creative use of the plot elements that makes the game score so well with me: the desire to find out what the hell is happening next, or what that weird scrawling of grafitti decorating the walls stands for. The beauty of it is, you really never quite figure it out, and it leaves you thinking at the end like a good book, instead of being another simple, static "story" with a simple beginning and conclusion.

Another great example is the weird air surrounding the protagonist of the second game. From the start, just by the overall design of the character, you know he's a troubled man. From his voice to the clothes he wears, he exhumes an aura of...for the lack of a better word, darkness. It's these clever design niches that seperate the series from it's others, and make it a truly different game. I went into the first one expecting a simple RE clone, in which you were charged with the over-worn task of blasting hordes of zombies. I was quite surprised--especially with the second game. It REALLY took an interesting twist when you find out that the main character actually is responsible for...well, I won't spoil it (if it hadn't already been revealed earlier in the forum.)

I think I've babbled enough, so I'll shut up now.

Eccles

05-11-2004, 12:29 PM

Actually, it doesn't say the last time James saw Laura, but we do know the time-frame to which most of the story took place.
True. I'm just using my common sense here.

It is also possible that James' arrival at Lake Toluca and Maria's awakening occured simultaneously.
I woulda thought that this one was obvious, man.
Maria came to life because she was created to be the perfect version of Mary...who dies a lot to torture James for what he did (I cant be sure, but I think it says this in the DVD)

Laura could still just be a figment of his imagination. That just depends on your beliefs of the story.
I would say the fact that she leaves Silent Hill makes her real and not just in James' mind.

SH2 is relatively close, with the Lakeside Hotel being a stone's throw away from the Lakeside Amusement Park.
I worked out how SH1 and SH2 link to one another.
County Highway 26 (the road with the billboards on it) is connected to Sanford Street (where Lakeside Amusements and the Lighthouse are).
I'll tell you I was pretty pissed when I found out you didnt get to explore new areas of SH1 like the box promised.

Though SH3 is supposed to follow Harry's trail in the Amusement Park, the vibe is just not the same. This may be due to the concept that Konami wanted to express; that the experience through Silent Hill is different for each person who visits.
Or that heather doesnt follow Harry's route at all.
Heather approaches the merry-go-round from the direction that, to harry, was nothing (IE: The metal floor had been ripped up, nothing there). Similarly, Harry heads straight ahead to the merry-go-round, whereas heather has to make a left.
For further proof; harry never went in the front gate at lakeside amusements, Harry never saw the shopping ring, he never went into the shops, he didn't see a roller coaster (let alone walk on one) and he didnt see HALF the stuff heather sees (Teacup ride, Stage, Fortune teller, haunted house etc)

StarZander

05-11-2004, 01:34 PM

This dividing the SH fans into two groups... I don't like it. Atleast not those groups. I, myself, first played SH1, and I have never been so scared in my life, as the first time I played it. I love that game. After that I actually played SH3, and lastly SH2. Although the atmosphere is different in every game, I enjoyed the SH2 atmosphere best. Some parts of SH1, and 3, seemed almost clisché(sp?), with a god-trying-to-take-over-the-worldish kind of thing, although that's not exactly what it's about. But SH2 had a special twist to things, and it made me feel... well... comfortably uncomfortable. I don't know, but I liked it, even if it wasn't that scary. It had alot more surprises that made me think "so THAT'S what happened" and such. I don't know, maybe this qualifies me to be in one of those two groups, I just didn't like the generalisation.

ifirit

05-14-2004, 09:42 PM

Silent Hill 4 UPDATE: Spoiler Warning

And now the news. Yesterday, in Ashfield in the woods near Silent Hill, the bodies of five apparent murder victims and a sixth severly wounded female were discovered. The woman was immediately rushed to St. Jerome's Hospital, but died a short-time later of her injuries. She has been ident....

So the Silent Hill 4: The Room trailer (http://c.streamingmovies.ign.com/ps2/article/513/513572/silenthill4_051104_trailerfull_wmvlow.wmv) has been released at the E3 convention. This is only the edited version so that too many spoilers would not be released. However, the full trailer (9"06" total) gives you a much better experience, the lyrics below and the news report mentioned above. You can find that trailer and the high quality "edited" trailer at www.sh2004.com in Room M. (Please note that a LZH decompressor is required to view the videos.)

For those who can read Japanese, maybe you would like to fill us in on what the site is saying. There are cards scattered on the site with some strange connections and images on them. I'm interested in knowing what the connection between the bottle, the doll's hair and the camera are, among others.

I already know what the connections to the previous SH games to SH4 are, but I figured I wouldn't say anything as to not ruin the surprise. So I won't. But, I will say that there are more than one. Though most sites claim to suggest that these references don't have any connection, I believe that they do. Once the game is released, I'll jump into the discussion.

Anyway, we finally learn the name of the Henry's next door neighbor: Elieen Gavin. Since, this is what I'd heard before, I assume that the name of the other woman is Cynthia. You know, the one with all the fancy jewelry. She along with a few others are still not confirmed as to their English names.

Lastly, for those who want the music from the trailers, you can find them here (http://www.angelfire.com/games5/silenthill4/). (This is an Angelfire site, so bandwidth can very easily be consumed.) The song "Room of Angel" was taken from the "edited" trailer, so the extended lyrics (which are written below) are not included, but it still provides enough to listen to if repeated.

You lie, silently before me.
Your tears, they mean nothing to me.
The wind, howling at the window.
A love, you never gave, I give to you.

...really don't deserve it.
But now, there's nothing you can do.
So sleep, in your only memory.
Help me, my dearest mother.

Here's a lulaby to close your eyes.
It was always you that I despised.
I don't feel enough for you to cry.
Here's a lulaby to close your eyes...

[/Spoilers]

Though I enjoyed all three SH games immensely, and have in fact become a bit of a hardcore fan of the series (I'm listening to Silent Hill: Nay Tomorrow right now, man!) I have to say that the original just feels more like...er, Silent Hill. It's hard to describe, but the feeling of treading about a creepy, fog-laden town filled with things that would very much like to make you lunch is better realized in the original, and the bizarre, alien feel of the story resonates as much more creepy simply because it's so darn different than what you find in most games.

Hardcore fans listen to "Mothes" by Akira Yamaoka. :wink: But anyway, the atmosphere of SH1 was more convincing because the game included rural, residential areas such as homes, schools, local businesses and neighborhoods. It was this very familiar environment that made it seem so tangible. (At least for people familiar with that sort of environment, which I know Corinth is like.) The sequels used locations that appealed to people in more urban, commercial environments, such as southern California and Portland, Oregon; which are the locations that the town was modeled after.

The only reason I made that "woo-hoo" comment is because I live in Lexington and I only know of one other person who visits OCR. So don't take it as a stab against people from Kentucky; I am just excited that there is someone else nearby that likes Silent Hill.

This dividing the SH fans into two groups... I don't like it. Atleast not those groups.

I didn't use the word "groups," I said schools. This means the place that influenced you the most in the experience. Now by saying this, I realize that is redundant to say the above. I just thought that was apparent. Anyway, the game that influences you the most will tend to influence the way you view the series. I was just suggesting that when you approach the others, including the new one, that you consider multiple angles to get a better understanding. That's all I wanted to point out.

Though SH3 is supposed to follow Harry's trail in the Amusement Park, the vibe is just not the same. This may be due to the concept that Konami wanted to express; that the experience through Silent Hill is different for each person who visits.

Or that heather doesnt follow Harry's route at all.
Heather approaches the merry-go-round from the direction that, to harry, was nothing (IE: The metal floor had been ripped up, nothing there). Similarly, Harry heads straight ahead to the merry-go-round, whereas heather has to make a left.
For further proof; harry never went in the front gate at lakeside amusements, Harry never saw the shopping ring, he never went into the shops, he didn't see a roller coaster (let alone walk on one) and he didnt see HALF the stuff heather sees (Teacup ride, Stage, Fortune teller, haunted house etc)

I really should have said that you cross Harry's path rather than following it. However, you do go to the same ice cream stand that the save pad was on in SH1. I found that save pad by accident when I got lost in the amusement park. Also, please note that I said "Heather follows Harry's path," not the other way around. You can follow someone's path and make your own at the same time. Still, Heather doesn't trace it step-by-step. I mean we don't even get to see the Sky Flower ride.

With reference to the details about Laura and Maria, I understand that most of the info seems obvious, but I've learn (somewhat) to say the things that may seem obvious to some, but not to others. It helps keep the air clear, since some people believe that Maria awoke before James arrives in Silent Hill, while others believe Laura is just an illusion. It's good to list your assumptions when making an argument in any direction, especially with Silent Hill, but you already know that. So I won't push it further. Sorry about that.

KFreak

05-15-2004, 12:44 AM

i've been a fan of silent hill since the first one...

i've been keeping up with sh4 since it was annouced (comes out next month, wootage)

i just wanted to put my word in that akira yamaoka is a musical genius...

i love all of his music, and can't wait for his next sound track

incase you missed it i made this post of my own version of SH1's no tomorrow (played by yours truly on the piano)

http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35974 <--- link to post

any who, am i the only person that feels SH1 was the most freaky of them all? it may have been cause no one had ever seen anything quite like it before, i still have the PS magazine that announced SH1 was in production, and the one that reviewed it.

and comparing resident evil to SH isn't really a fair comparison, because RE is much more of a "jump out of no where and scare you to death" and SH is much more of a "omg wthat the hell is that?" type of scare that you can't sleep for a week after playing it, their both great games.

i just like SH more...

ifirit

05-15-2004, 11:06 AM

Welcome to the discussion. Is there anything you'd like to add to the discussion? I know that there are numberous unanswered or unaddressed questions lying around. I mean there's 27 pages of discussion to elaborate on.

Anyway, nice to have another person on board. And just so you know, videogame remixes/rearrangements go in the Works In Progress: OC ReMixes (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=13). I'll listen to it soon.

StarZander

05-15-2004, 12:27 PM

incase you missed it i made this post of my own version of SH1's no tomorrow (played by yours truly on the piano)

http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35974 <--- link to post

I just listened to it, and it was pretty good. It gave the feeling I got in the game, in that scene with Lisa.

I should also say, welcome to our thread. I hope the kind of theories that were discussed in the beginning, come again. Those were the most interesting ones. Do you have any theories you want to share?

Btw, ifirit, are you never on msn anymore, or do I just suck at timing?

Deathtank

05-15-2004, 12:29 PM

SH 4 looks promising,heh. :)

oh,and I was very surprised when at the credits,after beating the game for the first time,"Esperandote" begun to sound,well, I'm an argentinian, what would you expect? :lol:

Firedrake

05-15-2004, 02:46 PM

The E3 trailer for Silent Hill 4 is available on http://www.gametrailers.com/, among other juicy titles. Just thought I'd point that out.

StarZander

05-15-2004, 09:33 PM

Now, let's revive that old discussion!!

I thought about Mary hanging upside down and stuff. The tarot card The Hanged Man (which is one of the cards used in SH3 to open to final door) is a card of a man hanging upside down. Although the hanged man is on a cross, Mary's "cross" could be her hospital bed perhaps. If you look at it, it resembles a metal hospital bed, without a matrass(spelling?) and such.

Quoting from a site with a description of its meaning:

"The Hanged Man often refers to taking time out for spiritual searching, perhaps using "unconventional means" of searching. It involves changing directions or perspectives. There is an element of waiting involved and sometimes sacrifice. It can indicate a Rite of Passage, an initiation or a transition. The card has sometimes been called the card of the Dying God. The Hanged Man means listening to your inner self, sometimes even when it seems to go against logic. It means looking at things in new and different ways. It also indicates unconventional behavior. It is a time of being alone often and reflects the need to withdraw from time to time in order to recharge or regroup your inner energies."

Now, I see several similarities here, with SH2. (Also they had several references to hanged men in the game) I don't have time to interpret all of it at this moment, but maybe you can to it for me. But the card being the card of the Dying God, could be referring to remains of Samael's power perhaps? He is dying, since the encounter with Harry, but he linguers in Silent Hill still.

There was talk of the Hanged Man card also had alot of connections with water. Don't see any connections with the game here, except for maybe the lake, and the In Water ending.

"Astrologically, the Hanged Man is connected to the planet Neptune, and there are some obvious and clear connections between the two. Some of the negative traits of Neptune do not normally apply to the Hanged Man, however. The color of the Hanged Man is blue, the musical note is G sharp, the Hebrew letter is Mem, meaning water or waters (such as an ocean). The Qabalistic Intelligence of the Hanged Man is Stable Intelligence. (This really seems like a strange choice to me. I would not characterize the Hanged Man as stable at all.) Other attributions of the Hanged Man are the concepts of reversal and the suspended mind. The Esoteric Title is the Spirit of the Mighty Waters. The Hanged Man is on the 23rd path of the Tree of Life, between Hod and Geburah. Robert Wang calls this card the path of baptism into the Maternal Water. He also says that it is a path of "eternally unresolved possibilities. It is openness without beginning or end."

Neptune is often the great dissolver; Neptune is also sometimes the planet of transcendental ecstasy, and that fits as well. Neptune rules the sign of Pisces (Moon card), and I can see the connections between the Moon and the Hanged Man. The Hebrew word that corresponds to the Tree of Life path that the Hanged Man is on, is Mem, meaning water or waters. I think that both Neptune and the Hanged Man are each more closely related to Mem, water, than they are to each other, but the entire connection seems to work quite well here."

I don't recall the other tarot cards that were used in SH3, except for the priestess. Could someone check up on these?

StarZander

05-15-2004, 09:35 PM

I thought about that too, about her hanging upside down and stuff. The tarot card The Hanged Man (which is one of the cards used in SH3 to open to final door) is a card of a man hanging upside down. Although the hanged man is on a cross, Mary's "cross" could be her hospital bed perhaps. If you look at it, it resembles a metal hospital bed, without a matrass(spelling?) and such.

Quoting from a site with a description of its meaning:

"The Hanged Man often refers to taking time out for spiritual searching, perhaps using "unconventional means" of searching. It involves changing directions or perspectives. There is an element of waiting involved and sometimes sacrifice. It can indicate a Rite of Passage, an initiation or a transition. The card has sometimes been called the card of the Dying God. The Hanged Man means listening to your inner self, sometimes even when it seems to go against logic. It means looking at things in new and different ways. It also indicates unconventional behavior. It is a time of being alone often and reflects the need to withdraw from time to time in order to recharge or regroup your inner energies."

This is offering some very good insight into the meaning of Silent Hill 3. I mean, you've gotta admit the plot to the sequel was very easy to follow, but it was hard to tell if there were any deeper connections than the obvious. Yet, looking at the relevance of the "Hanged Man" card, I can make some better theories and connections.

Silent Hill 3 was the only game to seriously look at religion from the follower's perspective and not a by-standers or historian's. The focus just seems to be about Claudia's search for love, since it seems she was not shown much. Her only real source of love, affection or whatever you want to call it came from the seven-year-old Alessa. Claudia just wants her back, sort of the same way Laura wants Mary back.

Though I can see some ties with SH2, I think it is more relevant to the plot or philosophy of SH3. Once I sort everything out, I'll report my findings.

Now, I see several similarities here, with SH2. (Also they had several references to hanged men in the game) I don't have time to interpret all of it at this moment, but maybe you can to it for me. But the card being the card of the Dying God, could be referring to remains of Samael's power perhaps? He is dying, since the encounter with Harry, but he linguers in Silent Hill still.

I don't think the "Dying God" part refers directly to Samael, but more towards the Older Gods mentioned in the "Lost Memories," "Crimson Book" and the various files around the town. Remember, there are other gods like Lobsel Vith, the yellow god and Xuchilbara, the red god. "God created beings to lead people in obidience to Her... many gods and angels."

You're also right about the many references to hangings in SH2, so I understand the idea of being upside-down. Yet, the references all have the person hung right-side up. Maybe a better explanation is the skewering form of execution. Remember how Maria dies the last time before the end? She is hung upside-down in the "skewering cage" (not sure what else to call it) and then speared by one of the Pyramid Heads, a formal execution in the Toluca Prison. And, when you fight the demon form of Maria, she is still in that same cage and position. Also, if you notice after the Pyramid Head fight, there is no body or sign of Maria's death.

I believe that there is some significance of the bed as Maria's final form, seeing as how it was Mary's murder site. Yet, I don't see it as the only source of influence. Though, we can tell the art designer's were trying to pick a scary design for the final boss, maybe they also played on some hidden fears in James. Maybe James had an aversion to things that were hung upside down. Maybe he was afraid of bugs, which could explain the use of swarms and the scorpin-like tail. Maybe James had some experience with the scewering form of excusion, causing an emotional scar that Maria exploited. I'm not saying that James was executed, even in that manner, but that maybe he had some contact with it in the past and it manifeasted here.

Wait! I just thought of something. Since I think Maria's final form looks like a form of execution performed in the Toluca Prison, Maria's form may represent the idea of being executed. Mary had been sick for a long time and towards the end had accepted that fact that she was going to die. So, she was just waiting for death. Then, James took her life in a short, but exection-like manner. (Note that he tucks her in, fluffs her pillow, and kisses her on the forehead before he smothers her.) It causes him a lot of pain later that he did this and especially so in the hotel. By taking the form of being executed, not only earlier in the game, Maria is trying to exploit his pain about being a murderer. She was just conveying the thing he regretted most.

There was talk of the Hanged Man card also had alot of connections with water. Don't see any connections with the game here, except for maybe the lake, and the In Water ending.

"Astrologically, the Hanged Man is connected to the planet Neptune, and there are some obvious and clear connections between the two. Some of the negative traits of Neptune do not normally apply to the Hanged Man, however. The color of the Hanged Man is blue, the musical note is G sharp, the Hebrew letter is Mem, meaning water or waters (such as an ocean). The Qabalistic Intelligence of the Hanged Man is Stable Intelligence. (This really seems like a strange choice to me. I would not characterize the Hanged Man as stable at all.) Other attributions of the Hanged Man are the concepts of reversal and the suspended mind. The Esoteric Title is the Spirit of the Mighty Waters. The Hanged Man is on the 23rd path of the Tree of Life, between Hod and Geburah. Robert Wang calls this card the path of baptism into the Maternal Water. He also says that it is a path of "eternally unresolved possibilities. It is openness without beginning or end."

Neptune is often the great dissolver; Neptune is also sometimes the planet of transcendental ecstasy, and that fits as well. Neptune rules the sign of Pisces (Moon card), and I can see the connections between the Moon and the Hanged Man. The Hebrew word that corresponds to the Tree of Life path that the Hanged Man is on, is Mem, meaning water or waters. I think that both Neptune and the Hanged Man are each more closely related to Mem, water, than they are to each other, but the entire connection seems to work quite well here."

Another interesting connection to water: the one reference to Metratron I was able find related to Tarot about the Ace of Cups, which represents a cup that flowed a fountain of water, similar to the "Holy Grail."

I don't recall the other tarot cards that were used in SH3, except for the priestess. Could someone check up on these?

The other four cards were the "Priestess," the "Fool," the "Eye of Night," and the "Moon" cards. The numbers on the cards may also have some significance. They are II, 0, XXII, and XVIII respectively. The number for the Hanged Man is XII.

StarZander

05-15-2004, 09:36 PM

I checked up on the Eye of Night tarot card, since it doesn't really exist in any tarot deck of cards. But the only thing I could find, was a book called "The Eye of Night", where the main character is a female magician. I will quote some stuff from a review:

The Troubles coming down from the North threaten to engulf the world in chaos. Even time and reason seem frayed to the breaking point. Jereth, disillusioned ex-priest of the Rising God and sole survivor of a shipwreck, finds his own life the perfect mirror of a world spiralling toward catastrophe. He has nothing; he has nowhere to go. But then one night he meets two mysterious women, a prophet and a fool, each with her own secrets. They involve him in a quest to save the world from death by traveling into the heart of the Troubles, bearing a talisman of night. He follows them without really understanding their quest – for their dark vision gives him his first glimpse of hope. But what can three penniless vagabonds, unarmed and unprepared, do about forces that threaten to crack the world?

Magic is alive in the world but it has insignificant affect on the troubles in the North. Kingdoms are at war with one another; plagues sweep the land; and earthquakes destroy whole cities. The weather plays havoc on the crops; drought is common; and the cattle dies from extreme thirst. The people in the North are traveling but that will do them no good because the troubles accompany them southward.

Three people on a quest are moving against the trend by heading northward. The mystic Hwyn, the beautiful simpleton Trenara, and the former priest Jereth follow the instructions of the Sky-Raven's Egg. Hwyn knows that the Eye of the North is readying itself to give birth and that it could mean the death of civilization or something quite wondrous.

THE EYE OF NIGHT is a beautiful epic fantasy starring three protagonists chosen by the gods to play a pivotal role in the rebirth of a world. Readers will be surprised to realize what these roles will be but it is all tied together in a way that makes sense. This is Pauline J. Alama's first novel but with the talent she displays with this strong tale, the audience will realize there will be more forthcoming. Just having patience to wait will prove nerve wracking.

And then some things about the main character and her main adversary:

Inner Struggle Yes
Plotlet: - search for identity/new understanding - coping with mental/magical powers

Sound like Heather?

Main Adversary
Identity: - natural phenomena - Male

Hmm...

I also found it mentioned here (http://www.englishqabalah.com/book_of_numbers.asp), if you search for eye of night there. Don't know what it means though. But I think the Qabalah is the book used to inerpret the tarot cards, but it says here Book of Numbers.

Perhaps the locations of the five cards in SH3 has some meaning. I will quote from a faq, the location and description of the different cards, that you could read in your inventory:

Item Name: "Moon" Tarot Card
Location: On the table in the Library of the Church, 1F.
Description: Found this in the archives. I don't think it's an expecially good card.

Item Name: "High Priestess" Tarot Card
Location: On the bed in Claudia's room in the Church, BF.
Description: Didn't this card mean something like "Genuine Belief"?

Item Name: "Hanged Man" Tarot Card
Location: On the gurney in the morgue in the Church, BF.
Description: This was in that morgue-ish place. It's such a pitiful card.

Item Name: "Fool" Tarot Card
Location: Inside the book in the hospital room in the south hallway on BF.
Description: This was in my old room... in a hospital room. What did this one mean again?

Item Name: "Eye of Night" Tarot Card
Location: On the ledge behind the altar in the Chappel on 1F, Church.
Description: Found this in the chapel. Is this a real tarot card, though?

There. Can you make something out of this?

ifirit

05-22-2004, 09:43 AM

Silent Hill 3 & 4 Spoilers

Thanks SZ for reviving the topic. Sorry, I haven't gotten around to posting anything. Anyway, for those just tuning in, I wanted to revive this discussion because I uncovered some new info from Team Silent regarding the relevence of the Tarot cards to the games in Silent Hill.

So, as it goes, we were drawing references and meanings from the cards found in Silent Hill 3 as a means of looking deeper into the connections with SH2 and the paired story from 1 & 3. There were questions regarding the similarities between the Hanged Man card and the visual imagery of hanging used in SH2. The style really set the tone for the darker aspects while still drawing on it's relevence to the plot and subsequent theories.

But from interviews and documentaries with members of Team Silent, the use of Tarot was also extended to the major ideas of the games, as well as the minor. (You can find the source information on this site (http://fadingtoblack.com/somethingeffulgent/sh/silenthill.html). I recommend visiting the whole site (http://fadingtoblack.com/somethingeffulgent/sh/inside.html), as it is the most organized, condensed and comprehensive site regarding the details of Silent Hill and it's sequels. Though, it is a little biased on certain details.)

Anyway, the site used the Tarot representations of the Town of Silent Hill, otherwise known as "Misty/White Silent Hill," and the Alternate version, known as Alternate Silent Hill.

The Town of Silent Hill is given the association with the Tarot card of "Strength." Though the card does not mean literal strength, it does refer to the power that holds influence over others, such as in a reading: the influence that is causing a problem or dilema in the person's life. Since most people think of the Town of Silent Hill as the actual town itself, the site suggests that the power innate to the town comes from the very land it sits on. This is quite logical considering the town's history and heritage. However, I would like to broaden this theory to the concept of the power itself, as location isn't particularly important considering that most of SH3 takes place outside of Silent Hill. This is also inferred by the quote from Lost Memories.

The Tarot card used to represent the Alternate side of Silent Hill is "The World." This card most commonly represents the completion of a cycle or the summation of all things. It refers to the attainment of truth or wisdom. However, it has negative connotations as well; it can represent the fear or lack of vision that prevents one from proceeding further. It also can represent the concern for the environment or one's surroundings, an abuse of laws of nature. The Alternate Silent Hill can be a place that either hinders or progresses one's path to the truth, as many of you know. Though, it can also be a place that brings things around full-circle, which is the form that "Nowhere" commonly assumes.

I wanted to show people the Tarot representations of the faces of Silent Hill as means of another representation that people can use in order to better understand the purposes and meanings of the games. Think of this as an annex to the discussion above. There is no real direct connections to the games themselves, but it was a nice departure from the black-and-white analysis I normally take.

EDIT: I just want to give a few quick Silent Hill updates, now that E3 is over.

Well with regards to Silent Hill 4: The Room, besides the new trailers, Konami set up a life-size replica of Henry's main living quarters as the booth. It was highly accurate, despite the production values. Akira Yamaoka was present answering questions about the game. I found a few pictures of the booth, but sadly, none of quality or interest. Still, if you'd like to see them, PM me.

I found two videos of some interviews with members of Team Silent about SH4. (Japanese version only.) These videos also show some extra footage of the game, including a sample of Henry's voice. **Possible Spoiler Warning**

Video 1 (http://www.konami.co.jp/ja/tv/special/narrow1a.html) (Link no longer available)
Video 2 (http://www.konami.co.jp/ja/tv/special/narrow2a.html) (Link no longer available)

Also, it appears that new information has been released about the Silent Hill movie. At this year's Canne Film Festival (http://www.festival-cannes.fr/default4.php), posters advertising the Silent Hill movie as well as Onimusha 3 were seen at the convention. I don't have any details as of right now, but I will find out more soon.

Movie Poster (http://www.angelfire.com/scary/pyrokinesis/images/index.html)

DarkPoinko

05-22-2004, 05:32 PM

Man, I wish i could read the words on that poster... I like the use of the second's logo(at least, I'm pretty sure that's the same font used for the second game...)

It kinda reminds me of the mock-up poster I did when the movie was announced(the second time)... Let me see if I can scrounge it up.

http://img59.photobucket.com/albums/v179/poinko/sh-poster.jpg

...wow, that didn't take anywhere near as long as I thought it would to find...

Sure the date is wishful thinking, and it's 12 types of cheesy, but I didn't spend too much time on it, anyway. Can't wait for that movie to come out. Maybe now that we're getting a movie, we might finally get that Pyramid Head action figure :)

Sorry I don't have much interesting to add in the way of deep meanings or what have you to the storylines, but I never really was a deep kind of person. I do, however, love me some Silent Hill, and reading through this thread has given me the itch to go back and play through SH2 again.

Awesome thread, tho. I'm keeping my eye on this, everyone has some excellent input and it makes for some good reading.

ifirit

05-22-2004, 09:33 PM

Rumor Control:
One of the details surrounding the movie is that it is rumored to be released by the end of the year. I don't have any confirmation on this, nor anything new as of yet. Konami has kept such a tight lid on this project since it's conception that it will take a while to dig anything up, unless there is an official press release.

Back to the theories. Part III. Silent Hill 1 & 3 Spoilers

I was just looking around at some stuff from SH3 and for some reason I had this explanation for the why the world is as such outside of Silent Hill. Since Heather, Cheryl and Alessa are all the same person now, why is it that people have not looked at the characteristics of one and applied it to the others? Heather has the same fears, aspirations, hopes and dreams as both Cheryl and Alessa. So, when a situation that occurs similarly to the first game, why shouldn't she react the same way?

Alessa created the Misty Silent Hill to escape from Dahlia who was trying to abuse her power. She used monsters to stop those who would persue her; she created puzzles and locks to prevent those people from moving forward. At the same time, she was trying to prevent Dahlia and her pawn from finding her, though she didn't have complete control of her powers. This is where Lisa and the Alternate Silent Hill came from. The Alternate universe created when Samael/Incubus was excited or threatened. It was a last-ditch effort to keep others at bay.

Cheryl had a deep love of her adopted father and tried to share that love with Alessa once they were together. Out of this shared experience came Lisa, but after her creation, her actions were not as easily controlled. From Heather's experiences, we learn that she wanted nothing more than to be with her family (as small as it was).

I explain this first as a way of showing the similarities between Heather and her predicessors. Though throughout the latter part of the game, we are continually told that Heather is Alessa and that she has some greater role to fill, but Heather does not identify with her as much because of her experiences. We learn of the person she identifies with from the Normal Ending.

Anyway, back to the point. Heather reacted the same way to being approached by "strangers" as she did in the first game. But first, a little more back story. From the notebook we find in the amusement park, we learn that Harry killed a person who was trying to invade his home, when Heather was 12. Douglas comments that it is just an "occult freak." Regardless, of whether or not it was a member of the "Hope House" cult, it rattled the memories that Alessa had about the search for her. Though it didn't explain why Harry choose to move away from that place. It may have been a combination of trying to evade further followers and Heather's reaction to a past, similar experience.

What is the reaction that she has? It is very possible that the reaction is recreating the Misty Silent Hill. I am basing my entire theory on this claim. The reasoning for this is from the reaction that Heather has to Douglas' initial questioning. Heather runs away, but at the same time, the power within her is helping her run away as well. The power is changing the world subconciously from Heather's mind. Similar creatures that appeared in Silent Hill are appearing in her town, her home. The only difference now is that Heather is caught in the middle. The monsters can affect her and kill her. So as a countermeasure, Vatiel may have been summoned to protect Heather or to watch over her as she tries to run away. (It also dongs on me now that her goal in the game was stated in the manual.) So, it appears that Heather is being rather self-destructive throughout the entire game. She has brought this world upon herself because she was scared to talk to a stranger.

However, Heather does not open up the Alternate universe on herself. We know that this is done so by Claudia. Claudia saw that the Misty universe was opened up and hoped that the Holy Mother had been awakened. However, when she met Heather and realized that her "true self" was still dormant, she pulled open the gate to the Alternate dimension. However, this too could also explain why Vatiel is summoned, so I'll have to leave him open-ended for now. Anyway, Claudia did this so it would cause Heather to remember the pain and suffering brought upon herself and reveal the memories of Alessa. Well, it worked, but Claudia did not expect Alessa to have changed over the years. Alessa was absorbed into Heather's being. If Claudia had known that in the beginning, would she still have tried to open paradise? My thoughts are probably, since I stated before that Claudia's motivation stemmed from a deeply rooted psychosis: her father.

There is so much more that I could get into now that I've found some of the deeper meaning in the game. Everything is intertwined and connected together in SH3, it could take a while to straighten it all out.

Tranquil Chaos

05-24-2004, 08:31 PM

This thread needs a little *bump* action.

While I'm at it, I ripped this from the trailor...
http://timberwolf.no-ip.com/Interesting_Files/lullaby.mp3

Enjoy!

ifirit

05-27-2004, 07:23 AM

In case anybody wants to get ready for Silent Hill 4: The Room, I found a fun, little flash puzzle of the same nature. It's called Crimson Room (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/crimsonroom.html).

It took me about an hour to get out the first time, but a minute or two once I figured everything out. Just something to tie you over. Have fun.

I-n-j-i-n

05-27-2004, 07:29 AM

^

Dude. Those games aren't similar at all.

You don't need to fight through hell monsters that make squeaky screams of death and twitch like Michael J Fox.

ifirit

05-27-2004, 02:19 PM

^

Dude. Those games aren't similar at all.

You don't need to fight through hell monsters that make squeaky screams of death and twitch like Michael J Fox.

Sounds like we have another member of the Silent Hill 2 school. Too bad his jokes aren't funny.

StarZander

05-27-2004, 03:04 PM

I played the Crimson Room a long time ago. It was pretty fun, and almost nostalgic with all that clicking.

ifirit

06-01-2004, 11:49 PM

Good news, everyone! Silent Hill Media is back on-line. So, for those junkies who are looking for any and all audio files from the Silent Hill Series, this is the place for you. It even has some rare and hard to find files as well. http://www.silenthillmedia.tk/ (Link no longer available)

On another note, for those people who have SH3 on the PC, here's a fun little program you can use to change Heather's skin (http://www.silenthillforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?s=48badf00ac8a549dd9fc6026cf95874d&threadid=9373&perpage=15&pagenumber=1). It basically exploits the T-shirt programming put in by Team Silent. Right now my favorite skin is the Memory of Alessa (http://solidsnake313.bravehost.com/evilcost.jpg) (link no longer available) skin. According to solidsnake313, the designer/hacker, he should have the code soon to alter the physical structure of Heather herself, allowing you to play as other characters from the game, or make your own. Eccles can soon say that Cybil Bennet is in SH3.

I also challenge anyone out there to make a ReMix of Room of Angel or any other SH4 track before the official release on June 17th. You can find mp3's of the track on the last two pages. Bet you can't beat me to it!

Eccles

06-02-2004, 09:08 AM

Eccles can soon say that Cybil Bennet is in SH3.
*looks around*

Whut?
Why me, man?

Actually, I was just wondering how long it would take for some |337 dewd to program the nude heather skin. The rumour that you could do it has been flying round since day 1

StarZander

06-07-2004, 11:12 PM

*bump*

This is needed. My mind is empty. I need to play the SH games again...

ifirit

06-08-2004, 01:36 AM

Silent Hill 4 Update:

As you may know, Silent Hill 4: The Room ships in Japan next week (June 14, 2004). Anyone plan on importing it then? The special edition version (available in Japan only, for now) will include a special two-disk soundtrack featuring the music from the game and a special "ghost-story" as read by Ichiryusai Teisui (one of Japan's "living national treasures), which was written by Akira Yamaoka.

Also, Konami has released an official music video (http://www.konamityo.com/sh4/dl/SH4B.wmv.lzh) for Silent Hill 4: The Room featuring the song "Tender Sugar." (Please note that you will need an LZH decompressor to extract the file.) The song is performed by Melissa Williamson who also sung "You're Not Here," "Letter From the Lost Days," and "I Want Love" (both versions) from SH3.

I'm currently hosting a temporary link to the mp3 of the music itself. You can find it here (http://www.angelfire.com/scary/pyrokinesis/media). (Please note that this is an Angelfire site and bandwidth can easily be consumed. So, if the files are unavailable, please try again later.)

**Major Silent Hill 4 Spoiler Warning**:
Konami has also released another "Making of" video (http://www.konami.co.jp/ja/tv/special/narrow3a.html) with an interview with Akira Yamaoka. There are also samples of new music and some in-game dialogue. This is the third video released by Konami so far. (Please note that the video is in Japanese, however, sections are in English.)

For those of you who are looking for more in-game images and videos of SH4, I've found a video (http://miyako.game-host.org/shforum/sh4ingame.wmv) containing said information. It contains extended scenes from the introduction and dialogue with Cynthia Vasequez and Eileen Galvin. There is also some familiar stuff as well.[/Spoilers]

I also found a fun little (japanese) website (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Darts/2375/shill.html) with some fan-fic drawings of the SH characters in anime form. There are also apparently some comics as well. It's not really anything too impressive, but I really enjoyed the drawings with all three leads, especially this
one (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Darts/2375/sirafu5.html).

Well, that should be enough for right now. Have fun.

EDIT: I forgot to include the lyrics to "Tender Sugar." So, here they are:

How long? How far?
Not ripped away,
took my body now.
Was it body or soul?
The Darkness fades,
fades to the light.
Disappearing now,
disappears from the night.

And all these ages I've wandered as a child.
The morning always came, it came too late.
What made my mind forget, forget to hide?
Could the nightmare be awake?
I don't know.

In or out, up or down,
never know, it's an illusion.
'Round and 'round, on and on,
everyday spins my confusion.

Not again, not again, not again.
This dream, I can't awake.
What is real, what is real, what is real?
It's getting hard for me to take.
What I need, what I need, what I need,
A little something I rely.
And the way sugar gently hides me.

(Oh, the way sugar saves me.
It's the room that confines me, confines me.
Sweet sugar.)

Yesterday, back and forth.
Broken door no longer opens.
Breaking down, need it now.
Love is short, he always owes me.

Not again, not again, not again.
This dream I can't awake.
What is real, what is real, what is real?
It's getting hard for me to take.
What I need, what I need, what I need,
a little something I delight.
And the white sugar gentle hides me.

Oh, the sweet sugar saves me.
It's the room that confines me.

tvraptor124

06-08-2004, 03:19 AM

Silent Hill is one of the most brilliant games I have ever played.

ifirit

06-08-2004, 11:11 AM

I was getting bored, so I decided to post my theories about Silent Hill 4: The Room. I've looked at almost all the material released so far (official and unofficial) and I have an idea about what is going on. The are possible spoilers, so be warned. Although, nothing here is conclusive.

Silent Hill 4 Spoilers
Henry's Predicament:
From the beginning, we learn that Henry finds his apartment locked and barricaded in. A message on the door says, "Don't Go Out!" It appears that someone, even Henry himself, has locked himself in to prevent Henry from going outside. Or, it is possible that it was to prevent something from coming in.

I began to suspect that Henry was involved in something terrible when I learned the name of the "ghost" creatures that were making their way into Henry's apartment. The creatures are called "Victims." The name itself didn't really clarify anything for me, until I found out that there were different types of "victims." Each type of monster had a different number associated with it. In addition to that, on the official website, sh2004.com (http://www.sh2004.com), there are items placed in each of the different sections of the site. These items were personal belongings to each of the "victims" and have descriptions and information on the people murdered. These things all pointed to signs of a serial killer. But what did that have to do with Henry?

Henry and the Serial Killer:
I considered two possibilities: 1) Henry was a target for this serial killer, but had gotten away for him/her; 2) Henry himself was the killer and is trying to protect himself by forgetting everything.

I thought about the first possibility when I saw the full trailer at E3, which showed a very brief struggle between Henry and something else (it was cut off by the edge of the screen) in his apartment from the street view. Just the general tone of the game makes you feel as if you're being hunted down by something dark. The part where we look through the peep-hole and see a monster coming towards us is enough to see that. But, if this were true and only so would make the story rather bland.

So, I considered the possibility that Henry murdered those people and is either feeling regret and remorse for his actions, or is being persued by the actual ghosts of the people he murdered. Two pieces (http://www.angelfire.com/scary/pyrokinesis/) that clued me to this were the news report of the murders near Silent Hill and the ambulance-radio conversation about the transportation of the young woman to the hospital (presumably St. Jerome's).

According to news report, six people were killed outside of Ashfield in the forest. In the radio conversation, we learn that the victims apparently had numbers carved into them. Also, for those who were perceptive, you'd remember that the man in the Superintendent's Office also has something carved into his forehead. From the Konami website, we see that the victims are numbered in order of death/appearance. If Konami wants to go through all the trouble of dropping these little hints, wouldn't you think they'd be tied together?

I think Konami wants you to really look at the "victims" in order to say these are people you killed. It is a pattern in serial killers to not remember the names or identities of their victims, so that they can remain disjointed from their acts. Henry doesn't remember why his apartment is locked, the phones cut off and the windows shut-tight. As far as we can tell, Henry doesn't know what is going on, or doesn't really want to. Therefore, it is possible that Henry might be a serial killer, who has disjointed himself from his crimes, but the paranormal world of Silent Hill is drawing it out.

Tunnels of the Sun:
The idea of the tunnels that teleport you to different parts of Silent Hill is not a new idea to the series. We've seen it in each game under the premise of "Nowhere." Nowhere is a place where the truth is revealed and exists to draw out the remaining questions left unanswered. A tunnel appears in Henry's apartment to achieve the same goal. In previous games, the natural progression has been to wander Silent Hill to uncover some sort of truth, only to wind up in "Nowhere." Here the progression is backwards.

Because of Henry's limitations, he cannot go to Silent Hill, so Silent Hill comes to him in the form of Nowhere. This happens after his nightmare of being in the Alternate universe within his apartment. I know it's just a technicality, but Nowhere, which normally appears in it's alternate form in the previous games, appears as Henry's normal home. But remember, most memories in Nowhere appear as a reflection of the person's mind. Seeming to have coped with his actions, Henry will see his home as normal, but with a few "alterations."

The normal progression of Silent Hill has been that of ignorance to confusion to realization in the form of the different Silent Hills: Misty, Alternate and Nowhere. However, as I said before, this progress appears backwards in Silent Hill 4, starting out in Nowhere to wind up in normal world.
[/Spoilers]

These ideas may seem to have little support and are somewhat unfounded, but again these are only theories; the real game maybe completely different from my ramblings. So, what are your thoughts on the subject?

EDIT: Hot off the presses, a new "Making of Silent Hill 4" video (http://www.konami.co.jp/ja/tv/special/narrow4a.html) (link no longer available) has been released by Konami. (Again, only available in Japanese.) This one talks a little bit about the two-disk soundtrack included in the special release version of SH4. From watching the video, I've been convinced to try and get my hands on the special bonus disk with the special stories told by Ichiryusai Teisui. Maybe it'll do the same for you, who knows?

Raenok

06-09-2004, 11:27 PM

Hello. I would like to join in on this little thread of yours. I myself have never played Silent Hill, but i have watched a friend play SH1&3. I hope i soon have enough courage to go buy them and play them....without having to quit for long periods of time and play it again(I have been known to do that). If you wish to speak to me, my AIM address is Firephoenix8969, and my e-mail address is Alienofdoom@yahoo.com. Thank you.

*Personal note: There is a third ending to Silent Hill 3. It's called the "Revenge" ending and you must have the Anime suit, and some item in order to get it. Look in Prima's Official Guide to Silent Hill 3 if you are stuck on getting it.

Raenok

06-11-2004, 01:38 AM

What, no answer from the wise masters of Silent Hill? I thought i would get an answer but...i guess not. This is a *BUMP* by the way.

*Another side note(Yes, i will make many of these): I have actually thought of an anime avatar for Dr. Eccles here. Complete green medical outfit(Scrubs with jacket, V-neck on shirt), Stethoscope around neck, Surgacal mask covering mouth, Blond, wavy hair stopping at waist, Sea Blue, shining eyes, Green cap on head, White medical shoes....And a 2-foot sword that resembles the Medical symbol(The one with the two snakes wrapping around somthing....I don't know what).

As for Cuddly PyramidHead, well, his avatar would be a petite version of PH, Head smaller, and almost resembles a collectable plush.

ifirit

06-11-2004, 02:37 AM

I suppose nobody made a response because people really aren't paying attention to this thread anymore. It seems that every other post is made by myself.

Well, anyway, most people already know about the "Revenge Ending" in SH3. (Any Silent Hill FAQ can tell you that. Besides, images from that ending were already posted in this topic.) However, the "Princess Heart" outfit is not required to obtain this ending, though it helps. You only need the Heather Beam in order to obtain the "Revenge Ending," which is obtained after killing 333 monsters, cummulatively. The Princess Heart outfit just changes the Heather Beam into the Sexy Beam, which is a much more useful from of the Heather Beam, and keeps your stamina from depleting as quickly.

If you're looking for secrets in the games, you might want to try visiting Nursery Cryme (http://www.nurserycryme.net/). Or if you're just looking for complete walkthroughs and strategy guides, try Silent Hill Heaven (http://www.silenthillheaven.com). For other types of fun, interesting SH links, look through this topic (especially the last few pages.)

As far as the other members on the forum, I'm not sure exactly why they chose the avatars and signatures that they have, but it is obvious that they like things like that. Besides, do you know how many times CPH has been asked about the name thing? It doesn't have anything to do with plush dolls. (And don't anybody start up that rumor again about the Silent Hill 2 plush dolls that were on sale on E-bay.)

Also, there is something that has been bothering me for quite some time now about FAQs on the "Underwear Code." Most people will write that after entering the code, Heather will make a sigh to confirm it. It makes me so mad, because that is obviously not Heather's, but Maria's voice. It is the exact same sound clip that comes at the end of the "Dog Ending" in SH2. How could people get that so wrong?! It just plain pisses me off.

flipsideshooze

06-11-2004, 05:50 AM

anyone see the MTV 2004 movie awards? was it me, or were the little CGI movies totally Silent Hill? i liked them... there were some really cool ones :)

ifirit

06-13-2004, 07:50 AM

Silent Hill 4 Update:

With the Japanese release of Silent Hill 4 literally days aways, I'd figure that now is as good a time as any to see videos from the E3 Demo. (Please note that an mp4, or MPEG-4, player is required to view the videos. Apple Quicktime should suffice.)

Silent Hill 4 Spoilers and Possible Spoilers Warning.

These videos (http://www.df0.nl/sh4/) (link no longer available) contain a walk-through of the Silent Hill 4 Demo. There are really interesting pieces of information given, such as some puzzle answers, memos and diaries. I tried my best to cover my eyes during those parts, so be careful as you watch them.

Besides the high number of spoilers in this demo, there are some really cool aspects of the game shown off. I was wrong about being able to tell when other monsters are around by the life bar. Just make sure to look around corners before running down hallways. The ghosts and "Gumheads" are really tough and scary. Anyway, I gotta admit, Eileen Gavin is one bad-ass momma. Even with a broken arm and a limp, she's ready to beat down some monsters. Kickass!

Well, for those of you who want to see the demo, but don't want anything spoiled, I've got a list of the videos that are (mostly) spoiler-proof below.

- titlescreen
- building02
- building05
- forest03
- forest06
- prison02

After the Japanese release of the game, I don't plan on making any more Silent Hill 4 updates, until the US release in Sept./Oct. (Unless of course, the material doesn't relate to any spoilers in the game.) I hope you've enjoyed this topic, as I'm no longer planning on bumping it. It's not that I'm giving up on following the series, but rather this topic has run it's course. Or rather, I've run out of gas to keep pushing this forward.

Have fun and see you later.

EDIT: One last thing before I go. The newest "Making of" Silent Hill 4 video (http://www.konami.co.jp/ja/tv/special/narrow5a.html) (Link no longer available)has been released by Konami. Producer Akira Yamaoka explains the plot of the game and his report from the E3 booth. In the background, you can hear the entire version of "Room of Angel." For the entire links to these videos, you can navigate your way through the Konami site or find them on my site (http://www.angelfire.com/scary/pyrokinesis/index.html) (Song removed now that the game has been released).

StarZander

06-14-2004, 11:16 AM

Too bad hearing ifirit leaving the discussions, but I have to agree with him. This thread is not what it once was. Therefor I thought I'd try to get the theories going again. The SH2 theories seem to have been the most popular ones, so here are a few that I don't think we've covered as of yet:

I played through SH2 once again yesterday, and noticed some things. First, that after you've spoken to Angela in the room with the large mirror, you get the knife that she tried to kill herself with. Now... After this, Pyramidhead gets his Great Knife. He didn't have it before this, and doesn't have it after the fight with him either. I think that, since Pyramidhead is in fact James himself, the Great Knife is just the gruesome version of that kitchenknife (they look very alike actually), and this fight with Pyramidhead symbolises James own fight against committing suicide. If he beats Pyramidhead, then he stops thinking about it. If he loses... Well... Then he does infact kill himself since, as I said before, Pyramidhead and James are the same person.

The next thing I noticed in the game this time around, was something that we have discussed, but I don't remember if we ever did this particular thing.
In the prison, with the rows of cells, you can hear those heavy footsteps, or whatever they are. I used to think that this was the prisonguard patrolling the upper levels, and you could aim your gun at it. This time I shot at it, but it was inside a cell, and I killed it. It made noises when I hit it, but not like a regular monster. After a few shots, it fell to the ground, and I kept shooting it until it was dead. You never saw the body, although I saw the blood coming from my shots. After this, those footsteps stopped. Anyone care to explain?

Discuss this, and I'll add more later on.

Tranquil Chaos

06-14-2004, 03:44 PM

I would say the PH is more a representation of James. It's the towns way of showing him his crime and torturing his subconcious. The knife theory is quite good though. I never really thought of it that way before.

StarZander

06-14-2004, 04:06 PM

I would say the PH is more a representation of James. It's the towns way of showing him his crime and torturing hi subconcious. The knofe theory is quite good though. I never really thought of it that way before.

Yes, I know. That's what I meant. We've been over this so many times, I hoped I wouldn't have to elaborate. Oh well. :P´

Eccles

06-15-2004, 11:46 AM

An interesting theory, but one which doesnt take into account two things.
1) Why pyramid head keeps raping things
2) Why pyramid head uses weapons other than the knife.
Only two of the...what...8, is it? However many Pyramid Heads there are in the game, only two use the knife.
- The one in Blue Creek uses no weapon
- The one in the basement does
- The one on brookhaven's roof does
- The one in Brookhaven's basement doesnt
- The two you find in the labyrinth don't
- The two in lakeview don't

I wish I could say more about Silent Hill 3...but my fugging PS2 died (the day after the warranty ran out, would you believe), so...y'know

ifirit

06-15-2004, 11:59 AM

What the heck, I'll give this one last try.

Silent Hill 2 Spoilers

The theory that James and Pyramid Head are the same is a rather highly debated issue, yet has a good foundation for being true. There isn't much disagrement about the idea the Pyramid Head is the representation of James' need for punishment, but at the same time, there are other representations scattered around the town (as well as other representations for PH itself). The dead guy sitting in front of the TV in the apartment complex is indeed James. (Though it may be because the programmers didn't want to create another character model for James, that particular moment in the game just shows one aspect of James' struggle.) James sees his dead body in a very grusome execution, which makes James consider the idea of his own death. There are many symbolisms for this scene, but I can't remember them all right now. Maybe someone could try stating a few for me. Anyway, the point is that Pyramid Head isn't James entirely, but merely are large section, or representation, of himself.

What are some of the other representations of James in the game? We've just discussed briefly about PH and the dead man in Rm. 208. Some people say that the dead guy at the end of the alley (where the apartment building key is found) is James, as the same charater model was used. Then again, some people say that the Lying Figures and Bedmen are also representations of James. Though each time, a different explanation is used, there are multiple instances where James encounters "himself."

Also, the monster in the prison cell is an invisible monster added to the game. For some reason, this monster was given special treatment by giving it it's own sound effects and voice. The monster says two things: one sounds like "ritual," while the other is harder to distinguish, but when played backwards sounds like "Are you sure?" I'm inclined to believe that it is one of the Hangers that you encounter on the streets of South Vale at night, in the underground laborynth, and in the Alternate Hotel. However, this time instead of hanging below the floor, it hangs from the ceiling. It was made transparent like the Stalkers in Nowhere from SH1, but more so as it is completely invisible. (You can find the sound files of the Prison Monster on my site (http://www.angelfire.com/scary/pyrokinesis/media/index.html).)

I'm not quite sure the significance of the creature, but it definitely drew your attention to the prison cells. Maybe it plays a role in symbolizing James' psyche as a prison, or maybe the town itself as a prison. That detail is much harder to understand. I'll have to think about it some more.

StarZander

06-15-2004, 12:05 PM

Well, since you find that big painting with PH in the Historical Society, he must have existed in Silent Hill's past. If we, for arguments sake, say that the town itself is creating everything here, then this was it's best way to reflect James' dark side. But it still has some of the "real" PH's "personality" left in it. That's why it keeps executing Maria, in the way he does. And also, the raping might have been part of the "real" PH.

StarZander

06-15-2004, 12:12 PM

Also, the monster in the prison cell is an invisible monster added to the game. For some reason, this monster was given special treatment by giving it it's own sound effects and voice. The monster says two things: one sounds like "ritual," while the other is harder to distinguish, but when played backwards sounds like "Are you sure?" I'm inclined to believe that it is one of the Hangers that you encounter on the streets of South Vale at night, in the underground laborynth, and in the Alternate Hotel. However, this time instead of hanging below the floor, it hangs from the ceiling. It was made transparent like the Stalkers in Nowhere from SH1, but more so as it is completely invisible.

I'm not quite sure the significance of the creature, but it definitely drew your attention to the prison cells. Maybe it plays a role in symbolizing James' psyche as a prison, or maybe the town itself as a prison. That detail is much harder to understand. I'll have to think about it some more.

Good to see you back here.

But how do you explain the loud thumping noises? They are being made by this monster, since they disappear when you kill it.

Eccles

06-16-2004, 10:34 AM

I dont think I've come up with this point on here before...so I think its worth doing now (OSHIT SH3 SPOILARS)

The monsters CANT be humans, because very few of them look like humans. The missionaries look like humans...as do the fat guys...but thats it. The closers don't look enough like humans to be human (for one thing, they shoot spikes out their fists. I dont know anyone who does that). The dogs could be dogs...thats fair enough (even though if you'd like to get technical they couldnt do ANY damage. There's a reason dogs teeth are the same as their mouths...the worst heather would get from the split dogs is a graze from the open skull), but the flyers? Sorry, but I think Douglas was just messing around when he did that "they looked like monsters" bit

Firedrake

06-16-2004, 10:54 AM

The Douglas joke was a dissapointment. It could have introduced a huge moral quandry into the game and even the series. But no, it had to be a joke.

Eccles

06-16-2004, 11:15 AM

The Douglas joke was a dissapointment. It could have introduced a huge moral quandry into the game and even the series. But no, it had to be a joke.
Surely the fact that we're discussing it (in white of all colours) shows that it introduced something into the series?)

Eccles

06-16-2004, 11:17 AM

THE DOUBLE POST DEMON STRIKES AGAIN

DarkOmenDKA

06-16-2004, 11:17 AM

can anyone get video clips or links to those lil mtv movie award thingies... i wanna see them cuz i missed them out here in japan... oh and I wanna see Lindsay Lohan ;)

StarZander

06-16-2004, 04:34 PM

I won't write in white, since I'm not racist. :P

They are probably just monsters in her eyes. It's her view of reality. Maybe everything is beautiful in Claudias eyes?

Eccles

06-20-2004, 03:34 AM

http://home.comcast.net/~andydthorley/James.jpg

Don't ask why Eccles has no hands.

ifirit

06-22-2004, 08:37 AM

Well, I had a long post that I was going to add to this topic, but my computer keeps freaking out each time I try. So in it's place, I have a...

SH4 Update:
Even though the Silent Hill 4 OST hasn't hit US shelves yet, mp3 copies have been flying around the internet (granted, I think it's just the same copies). I haven't found a reliable or stable server yet to get them from, but you can find copies on a temporary site here (http://www.silenthillforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?s=0dda6fdd7d11877405a5b003cc3ebad1&threadid=10672) (Link no longer available). (Please note that the bandwidth has been exceeded on the first 7 songs. They will be available again in July. Or, you can just get the giant zip file.)

I'm hosting a temporary mirror for "Tender Sugar," "Your Rain," and "Waiting for You ~Live at Heaven's Night~" on my site (http://www.angelfire.com/scary/pyrokinesis/media/index.html) (Songs removed since game has been released). I will host them for one week and then shuffle another three or post some by request. If I find a more reliable server, I will point you in the right direction.

Have fun.

cluthu

06-23-2004, 02:26 AM

Global-Trance

06-23-2004, 10:17 PM

Well, I had a long post that I was going to add to this topic, but my computer keeps freaking out each time I try. So in it's place, I have a...

SH4 Update:
Even though the Silent Hill 4 OST hasn't hit US shelves yet, mp3 copies have been flying around the internet (granted, I think it's just the same copies). I haven't found a reliable or stable server yet to get them from, but you can find copies on a temporary site here (http://www.silenthillforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?s=0dda6fdd7d11877405a5b003cc3ebad1&threadid=10672). (Please note that the bandwidth has been exceeded on the first 7 songs. They will be available again in July. Or, you can just get the giant zip file.)

I'm hosting a temporary mirror for "Tender Sugar," "Your Rain," and "Waiting for You ~Live at Heaven's Night~" on my site (http://www.angelfire.com/scary/pyrokinesis/media/index.html). I will host them for one week and then shuffle another three or post some by request. If I find a more reliable server, I will point you in the right direction.

Have fun.

If anyone wants, I have the following releases:

Silent Hill 4 THE ROOM Original Soundtrack

and

Silent Hill 4 Inescapable Rain In Yoshiwara -Special Chapter-

If you would like them, PM me and we'll talk things over.

Global-Trance

06-24-2004, 02:08 AM

This is quite intereting... Inescapable Rain is like some sort of narrative or something but it's all in Japanese. I need someone to translate! O_O

MixmasterC

06-24-2004, 08:37 AM

i gotta say that the silent hill series is one of the scariest i've ever played. however, it could use more action in one of them. silent hill 2 had some action, but could've used more when in combat or in contact with pyramid head. also the 3rd one too since the girl has a submachine gun. overall, i think the silent hill series is a good story to come up upon if you understand it well; but, my favorite horror game is resident evil. no doubt about it. alone in the dark may have established the horror genre, but resident evil have innovated it.

ifirit

06-24-2004, 09:35 AM

Perhaps I'm just a dummy and it's so obvious that everyone's going to retort with a :slaps forehead: "Well duh!" but am I the only one to hear Laura's Theme around the 4-minute mark of Waiting For You?

Yeah, it's Laura's Theme alright, but it's not new since Mr. Yamaoka also did the same thing in "I Want Love (Studio Mix)" on the SH3 OST. A small phrase from the original Silent Hill theme also appears in "You're Not Here" as it does in the extended version of the "Theme of Laura." But you can also say that the "Theme of Laura" is just "Not Tomorrow" in a different chord. It's just a running theme that Mr. Yamaoka uses, since he apparently likes to keep themes.

However, despite that, I find this new soundtrack to be very different from his previous work in it's tone. Though there are very familiar elements such as heavy drum-n-bass track-loops, airy & atmospheric synth ambience and the traditional piano and guitar melodies, the overall expression of the soundtrack is radically different than his previous work. Some of it is good, some not so much, but overall it is a refreshing change in the music that kept my ears perked.

This is quite intereting... Inescapable Rain is like some sort of narrative or something but it's all in Japanese. I need someone to translate! O_O

Yes, "Inescapable Rain" is part of the two-disc special edition version of the SH4 soundtrack. It is a narrative written by Akira Yamaoka in a Silent Hill-esque style genre and performed by Ichiryusai Teisui, one of Japan's "living national treasures." Unfortunately, the text cannot be translated exactly into english because of the "kyodan" style in which it is told. Doing so would ruin the experience of the piece. It is and will probably remain a Japanese-only exclusive. Even the title may be only a rough translation. (This is true since the title is actually "The Inescapable Rain of Yoshiwara.")

i gotta say that the silent hill series is one of the scariest i've ever played. however, it could use more action in one of them. silent hill 2 had some action, but could've used more when in combat or in contact with pyramid head. also the 3rd one too since the girl has a submachine gun.

I'll be among those to admit that the combat system in Silent Hill has not evolved much over the sequels. Though "fighting" is not the focus of the game, I would really love to have a much more tactile combat system. Most of the time, it's just shoot/hit, strafe and repeat. Number 3 was much more enjoyable, but I really prefer a greater variety in combat, not more items.

I want to learn some skills while playing and apply them to the game, especially during boss battles. Like the first one, where you had to fire into the monster's mouth to kill it, or where you had a choice in killing the boss or finding a different approach to defeat them (aka Cybil fight). I just want to be able to do more during my fights than just shooting and running. Come on Konami, at least throw in some counter-attack capabilities.

EDIT: As an interesting piece of information, the track "Remodeling" on the SH4 soundtrack is just "Merry Happy Christmas" (also by Akira Yamaoka) with a different ending. The track was included in the Konami Christmas card sent out in December of 2003.

Global-Trance

06-24-2004, 07:39 PM

This is quite intereting... Inescapable Rain is like some sort of narrative or something but it's all in Japanese. I need someone to translate! O_O

Yes, "Inescapapble Rain" is part of the two-disc special edition version of the SH4 soundtrack. It is a narrative written by Akira Yamaoka in a Silent Hill-esque style genre and performed by Ichiryusai Teisui, one of Japan's "living national treasures." Unfortunately, the text cannot be translated exactly into english because of the "kodan" style in which it is told. Doing so would ruin the experience of the piece. It is and will probably remain a Japanese-only exclusive. Even the title may be only a rough translation.

Well... I'm sure a translation would ruin it... however it'd still be nice to know what's going being said. It's beautiful the way it is... I just want to know the gist of what's said. ^_^

Tranquil Chaos

06-25-2004, 02:37 AM

Well... I'm sure a translation would ruin it... however it'd still be nice to know what's going being said. It's beautiful the way it is... I just want to know the gist of what's said. ^_^

Same here.

ifirit

06-30-2004, 08:17 AM

Well, time for a little bump action.

I've rotated the SH4 songs this week, in case anyone still needs a mirror (for whatever reason). You can find the new songs here (http://www.angelfire.com/scary/pyrokinesis/media/index.html). (Songs removed due to release of the game.)
------

Rumor Control:
According to rumors, there is already talk about the production of Silent Hill 5. Apparently, it has the surname "Shadows" and is supposed to be part of a new trilogy that Konami will release. (So, this would mean that SH1, 2 & 3 were part of a trilogy. :?) Anyway, the game is supposed to play down the combat and emphasize more on the puzzles and terror. A press release is rumored to appear in the winter of 2006.

In addition to this, Konami is currently in negotiations with Nintendo to bring the Silent Hill franchise to the Nintendo DS. Although the DS will be released in Europe sometime in the first third of 2005, a set date has not been announced for the game.

Although these are only rumors, we know what happened with the ones surrounding Silent Hill 3. Silent Hill 4 was rumored to be in production just before the US release of SH3. A Silent Hill movie was rumored to be negotiated between Konami and Hollywood. And, that a Silent Hill comic series would be created by 2004. At the time, these were all rumors, so you never know.

But, I want to pose a question out there. Should there be a Silent Hill 5? (I haven't played SH4, so I don't know if the story would suggest one.) Is Konami just taking the series too far or just rehashing more of the same? Or is there room for new stories in the series? (If you are going to make references to SH4, please mark your spoilers.

StarZander

07-03-2004, 06:22 PM

I think that there can always be a sequal. Basically, we've seen different perspectives in each game of Silent Hill. There is almost an infinite number of perspectives to be shown, and if they can manage to present these in a good enough way, then they should keep on making them.

Sir Alex

07-10-2004, 04:48 AM

I would agree that there can and should be more Silent Hill games, albeit not too many more. Also, this topic is too big and too good to let die.

I-n-j-i-n

07-10-2004, 04:52 AM

You know, as for this "Should Silent Hill get more sequels?" idea, the answer's pretty obvious. Hell yes.

That's pretty much because Silent Hill as a series hasn't deviated much from its first game's formula, and it's been successful because of that.

Now, if the series stagnates like Resident Evil did, then maybe we can see some NEW form of Silent Hill. Ya know, maybe even better camera angles and fighting system perhaps.

I love Silent Hill, Resident Evil, Eternal Darkness, etc etc, but SH still has a lot of room to improve upon. Much like RE4 has shown for the RE series.

StarZander

07-11-2004, 05:41 PM

Well, it has become more and more action oriented through the games, and with SH4 they introduce a healthbar and realtime weaponchanging. alot less menus to use. More action. This is sitting on the edge of a knife. Might be great and we'll all worship it, or it'll suck and we'll hate then for doing this to SH.

mecca\

07-11-2004, 08:14 PM

The only game of the trilogy I've played is SH2...Got to the 2nd apartment, and gave up, wish I'd persisted now though! I like intricate plotlines like you lot have described heh, never really got into it though, was more like "OMFG THIS IS SCARY LOLOL" rather than paying attention to its story...anyone got a http://junkerhq.net/CS/ style synopsis of the storyline from the original right up to the third? I'd like to read it :)

Eccles

07-11-2004, 10:00 PM

anyone got a http://junkerhq.net/CS/ style synopsis of the storyline from the original right up to the third? I'd like to read it :)
Why yes, yes I do ^_^

I've just got to type it up...which is looking unlikely since I'm concentrating on other things at the moment...but I shall give you what I come up with as I come up with it.

I'll also post what I write story-wise, considering I've got about 5 silent hill stories on the run at the moment...though its very likely that only 3 of them will see the light of day, since I don't really like the other two...
(one of the two I dont want to put out is set in about 1500, the other is a series of reports and diary entries and so on and so forth, rather than a story...y'know? Kinda like the Adrian Mole diaries only (A) something will happen in my version and (B) it'll shed some light on the other writings I've done for Silent hill...)

ArgonX

07-13-2004, 02:04 AM

Wow, I just read every single post in this topic from the beggining.

To touch on a few things I think you guys missed.

I really wouldn't call the Cult "Hope House Cult" because the cult was around much longer than Hope House. In Silent Hill 3, at the Curch there are several paintings on the wall that talk about the Cult's belief system:

1. Origin:

In the beginning, people had nothing. Their bodies ached, and their hearts held nothing but hatred. They fought endlessly, but death never came. They despaired, stuck in the eternal quagmire.

2. Birth:

A man offered a serpent to the sun and prayed for salvation. A woman offered a reed to the sun and asked for joy. Feeling pity for the sadness that had overrun the earth, God was born from those two people.

3. Salvation:

God made time and divided it into day and night. God outlined the road to salvation and gave people joy. And God took endless time away from the people.

4. Creation:

God created beings to lead people in obedience to Her. The red god, Xuchilbara; the yellow god, Lobsel Vith; many gods and angels. Finally, God set out to create Paradise, where people would be happy just by being there.

5. Promise:

But there God's strength ran out, and She collapsed. All the world's people grieved this unfortunate event, yet God breathed Her last. She returned to the dust, promising to come again.

6. Faith:

So God hasn't been lost. We must offer our prayers and not forget our faith. We wait in hope for the day when the path to Paradise will be opened.

This hints at several things. Firstly, the God they speak of is Samael IMO and that is supported by a couple things which I will get into later. I found it interesting that they said that Samael was created by two people, even though it says a man and a woman I think it hints at Silent Hill 1 a bit (Man who offers snake - Alessa, woman who offers reed - Cheryl).

Secondly, and I feel, most importantly - the red god, Xuchilbara and the yellow god, Lobsel Vith. We can discern that these two are most likely Pyramid Head and Valtiel. This leads me to believe that Pyramid Head and Valtiel are seemingly invincible because they are beyond the reach of the people of Silent Hill. We've established that everyone's fears, hatreds, sins, ect. form their version of hell when in Silent Hill and that they "create" the monsters from their psyche but Pyramid Head and Valtiel don't seem to fit any mold.

Something else interesting in SH folklore - The Seal of Metatron. I think this was touched on briefly a long time ago, but it's worth bringing back up. The Seal of Metatron has "anti-god" properties, as stated in Silent Hill 3. Apparently Valtiel has a tattoo or brand or something on one of it's arms of The Seal of Metatron. This seems to illustrate something that is also hinted at in SH2. Metatron and Samael are in a conflict over Silent Hill. I think Samael is absolutely the god that created Pyramid Head and Valtiel, but I think Metatron won a victory over Samael in the form of Valtiel... maybe taking away Samaels control of Valtiel by branding it. I don't really think either one is exactly better than the other one, but I think Metatron probably has a better grasp over "normal" Silent Hill, and Samael has power over "alternate" Silent Hill. Also, I don't know where I heard this, but apparently the sirens you hear that ward off Pyramid Head in Silent Hill 2 are supposed to be Metatron's doing. Metatron is looking over James and deciding when he's had enough torture from Pyramid Head. It makes sense in that Xuchilbara is a god itself (albeit a lesser god) and the Seal of Metatron has anti-god powers so, the "Siren of Metatron" (as I like to call it) would annoy the Pyramid Head and get it to back off.

The Historical society and several locations have Pyramid Head related things in them, so obviously Pyramid Head has been around since before James went to Silent Hill, I just think they are following Samael's orders to torture him.

That lends itself well to the theory that Metatron and Samael are really the two forces controlling Silent Hill. Maybe Alessa still has some effect on it because she left some kind of imprint on Samael, but for the most part we can assume that the town was relatively strange before Alessa thanks to the long history of the Cult.

Well, there's a lot to chew on there so I should probably stop for now. These are really just my feelings and my perceptions on the town. I can't really buy into Alessa controlling every aspect of Alternate Silent Hill, although I can see her influence in it. I really want to believe that the whole story is grander than Alessa's nightmares, you know, more like two godly forces fighting each other indirectly.

~AX~

mecca\

07-13-2004, 03:09 AM

the other is a series of reports and diary entries and so on and so forth, rather than a story

Excellent idea mate...put some illegible stuff in there too for effect and you're flying - diarys, accounts, random scribblings, wills, (remember the diary of the guy who bursts out of the closet in resident evil after you read his diary?) it'll be sweet - no idea when your synopsis of the trilogy will be finito? I'm considering getting SH3, i think its ps2/pc only though? I'd rather have it on xbox tbh...

StarZander

07-13-2004, 05:32 PM

Also, I don't know where I heard this, but apparently the sirens you hear that ward off Pyramid Head in Silent Hill 2 are supposed to be Metatron's doing. Metatron is looking over James and deciding when he's had enough torture from Pyramid Head. It makes sense in that Xuchilbara is a god itself (albeit a lesser god) and the Seal of Metatron has anti-god powers so, the "Siren of Metatron" (as I like to call it) would annoy the Pyramid Head and get it to back off.

First of all, congrats on reading the entire thread, I guess.

The sirens that you speak of appear in all games. In SH1 they sound when you switch from normal Silent hill, to alternate, and back again. I.e. after every boss, you hear the sirens, as everything turns back into "normal". This is also in SH3, when you switch the same thing. But if you want to connect this to a diety, then it's most likely Valtiel, since his valveturning represents the change between "normal" and "alternate" SH.

Eccles

07-13-2004, 06:35 PM

the other is a series of reports and diary entries and so on and so forth, rather than a story

Excellent idea mate...put some illegible stuff in there too for effect and you're flying - diarys, accounts, random scribblings, wills, (remember the diary of the guy who bursts out of the closet in resident evil after you read his diary?) it'll be sweet
I think I'll put that one out after my three main stories...since the reports will talk about the stories, most certainly.

no idea when your synopsis of the trilogy will be finito? I'm considering getting SH3, i think its ps2/pc only though? I'd rather have it on xbox tbh...
3 isn't the best Silent hill...personally I'd say 1 was.

Illaminus

07-13-2004, 09:35 PM

*pretty obvious this thread is full of spoilers, so no need for a spoiler alert really :P
Oh btw, these things I write are my thoughts to some of the things happening is Sh, not necessarily correct, but what I have gathered. If you can directly prove me wrong, by all means, please do so. I want to find out what is real in SH.*

If anyone has a save point right before you encounter Eddie for the last time, check this out. The place with the graves -> James, Angela, Eddie, Walter. Everyone apart from Laura and Maria/Mary has a catacomb, logical if you think about it. Laura -> child, innocent. Mary/Maria -> victim.

But what I don't see is… have a closer look on all of the gravestones... WHO THE HECK IS MIRIAM K? And why she is also labelled as "traitor"? Is that an inside Konami joke or something else? If anyone knows, please give me an answer, it’s been driving me nuts.

In reply to why/how the pyramid head exists, especially since James had never seen him before. I think Samael used the old executioner to play with James' mind. In the normal world, it can be argued that James kind of represents a pyramid head. How? By killing Maria over and over again, the pyramid head is there to remind James how he killed his own wife. The fact that the PH is faceless can also represent James' guilt and shame for his mercy killing and killing because he was fed up with Mary’s whining. This has a tremendous effect on James. He begins to fear himself.

I don’t know if James has multiple personalities, but it is obvious he neglects what he did, and carries on his life as if he was a selfless, caring man. His neglecting is also wrong. Death is not to be taken lightly. James is in Silent Hill for 3 reasons; to be punished, to remember who he really is, and to give Samael enough power to begin taking over SH in SH3 , so the monsters Heather would experience would be real as technically (as far as I can see) Heather is sin free. (Well, apart from the whole Alessa Cheryl complex) So Samael can finish off what he started in SH1.

Which all bring me to the point of SH2. I’m assuming two things. 1) sh2 is set between sh1 and sh3, 2) rebirth is the real ending.

How can Samael still live after Harry killed him in Sh1? He can, because only his physical form was killed. His essence still exists in Silent hill. However, for him to once again regain the strength to take on the entire town once again he needs someone to give him strength by calling on necromancy forces. As he still lives in spirit he can indirectly control the surroundings in Silent Hill. -> Through illusions, by letting those who’ve committed foul sins to experience them over and over again he can indirectly manipulate them to do his biddings. I can’t recall the name Samael be mentioned once in the game, perhaps of this reason. Would James be more aware of what he did in SH if he knew? The people who experienced their nightmares were only those who deserve to be punished. That is how Laura is a bystander, but she is at the same time Samael’s Ace card. She knew Mary, she could manipulate James by playing on his feelings, as he refuses to believe Laura’s acquaintance to Mary several times. I think Samael used her to help James realise he needs his wife back. By using "Lost Memories" and some other stuff, some of the old powers Samael used to have come to life again.

I reckoned rebirth was the proper ending after I played the “Born from a wish” scenario. The entire thing with Ernest, the ingredients, his daughter, it just matched as a parallel to James’ experiences.

As for the sirens of silent hill, particularly the one that makes the pyramid heads commit suicide. I’m not sure why, but I think the sirens sound symbolise the struggle between Metatron and Samael. When the siren went off in sh2 it could have been Samael saying James has suffered enough (James was now mad enough to fulfil the resurrection and by so giving Samael more strength later). It could have been Metatron coming to the rescue. The only thing certain is that it is there to say something is changing, for good or worse, just like Valtiel did whenever he appeared and turned a knob in Sh3.

That was a lot of info. Wrote it all a bit fast, sorry for my non-intelligent language, English isn’t my primary language. Hope it’s fairly understandable, and you all can see some of my points.
:)

Eccles

07-14-2004, 06:23 PM

Illaminus

07-14-2004, 07:36 PM

ifirit

07-18-2004, 08:50 PM

Silent Hill 1, 2 & 3 Spoilers

It's been a while since the discussion has come up again. I'm glad, because during that time, I've been reading up on "The Lost Memories." You may recognize the name from both SH2 and SH3, but what I'm referring to is the printed book, released only in Japan (so japanese only), which is the creators explanations of the ideas and events in the first Silent Hill "trilogy." As StarZander put it:

Wow. It's like a Silent Hill bible.

I wouldn't call it a bible exactly, as there are still many unresolved issues and the text is a little hard to understand. Anyway, I just wanted to relay and clarify a few of the major issues surrounding the first three games.

For those who would like to download the scans of the "Lost Memories" you can find them off the Silent Hill Forum (http://www.silenthillforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?s=518663361cf637eaa0595e8c064d8420&threadid=7000). The text is only partially translated and my presentation is based on these translations.

Pyramid Head
Japanese Name: Red Pyramid Thing
Games: Silent Hill 2
Tarot Card: Judgment (XX)
Text Translation: Manifested by James' subconscious, it takes the form of an executioner of times past.

The creature known as "Pyramid Head" introduced in Silent Hill 2 is an enigma to many players. This is intended to shed some light on the subject.

Originally, the pyramid head outfit was the guise of Silent Hill's executioners. Three years ago when James visited this town, that figure overlapped with his own feelings of guilt, and then later appears as a representation of his desire for punishment in the otherworld created by his subconscious.

Was the "red devil" that Walter Sullivan saw...?

Walter Sullivan murdered a young boy and his sister, and then took his own life. The connection between the "red devil" he saw and Pyramid Head has become a topic of discussion among players. However, Pyramid Head is only a representation of James' need for punishment. No one besides Sullivan himself can really know what he saw.

IMAGE: Valtiel before the fight with God.
Valtiel is the being that Pyramid Head is modeled after. His form appears differently depending on the person who sees him.

IMAGE: the memo written by Walter Sullivan
Sullivan says that he saw a "red devil." What was it that he saw?
Creator's Comment: Pyramid Head wounds Maria again and again to reiterate the actuality of Mary's death and wake James from his delusion. In other words, to force the crime out of his subconscious.
Translation Notes: In sections concerning Pyramid Head, the word "jibatsuishiki/jibachiishiki" is used frequently, and I think it's hard to translate perfectly into English. Ji = self, batsu = punishment, and ishiki = consciousness, or in the way it's used here, "sense of," so the meaning is that Pyramid Head comes from James' "sense of self-punishment," or "self-punishment-mindedness."
----

Vatiel
Japanese Name: Vatiel
Games: Silent Hill 3; Silent Hill & Silent Hill 2 (apparently)
Tarot Card: Magician (I)
Text Translation: A mysterious creature that is always lurking near Heather. What is his true purpose?

Valtiel shadows Heather as if stalking her ever since her encounter with him in the shopping mall.

While this strange creature observes Heather, he makes no effort to inflict harm upon her; the truth is that he has a unique purpose, a role he plays which enters into the game.

The fact of the matter is that in the religious tradition of Silent Hill, Valtiel is a saintly being corresponding to an angel.

Concerning that complex and profound reason for existence, let us consider such things as his design and behavior from various angles.

IMAGE: Valtiel
Whenever there is a shift to the otherworld, Valtiel appears before Heather.It can be said that this being is a guide to the otherworld.

IMAGE: from the elevator scene
First encounter in the shopping mall's elevator. This is after Heather was found for the first time.

SECTION TWO: Watcher

To ensure the protection of the unborn deity, he watches Heather, mother of God

Since the name Valtiel means "attendant" by way of the English word "valet," his existence as an angel is derived from suffixing "-el." In short, he is the being that attends to and watches over God. For the
purpose of carrying out his duty of watching and protecting the mother until the time comes for God to be born, he does not harm Heather.

IMAGE: exploring the church
Valtiel persists in watching Heather in the church near the end of the game.

IMAGE: Claudia's final scene
Claudia assumes the role as mother and takes the necessary steps to birth God.

SECTION THREE: Messenger

An angel in the town's religious organization that governs the cycle of rebirth, he appears as a symbol of the otherworld.

Valtiel's intentions have little to do with Heather; his concern is primarily with the god that sleeps inside her. It can be thought that in order to restore God to this world, every time Heather (Alessa) dies, he is the one responsible for resurrecting her many times over. Additionally,
the valve handle that Valtiel turns with his left hand represents the idea that "God can be reborn any number of times," which can be thought of as having significance to the basis of the sect's doctrine.

IMAGE: dragging Heather's corpse away
If Heather should die, Valtiel takes action to resurrect the mother of God.

IMAGE: Heather stands opposite Valtiel in the church
In many places Valtiel is seen turning the handle, which signifies the cycle of rebirth.

SECTION FOUR: An explanation of the meaning hidden in the design of the being that ties together the three works of the series.

In the long-standing religious tradition of Silent Hill, Valtiel is worshipped as a way to become closer to God. And so even in the previous works of the series, Valtiel has appeared in different forms. In other words this is why Valtiel ties together various events that have taken place in Silent Hill.

In the case that any events transpire in Silent Hill in the future, that distinct shape may again appear before players.

IMAGE: Valtiel before the fight with God
Noting the significance of Valtiel's design, the relevance between the three works becomes clear.

Ceremonial robes from Silent Hill

In the school's otherworld, a number of body-shaped figures can be seen. If one looks closely, it becomes clear that there is something familiar about what the figure is wearing. What looks like a body bag is actually the ceremonial robe of the town's religion. This robe is modeled after the appearance of an angel from Silent Hill's traditions, namely Valtiel.

IMAGE: the hanging robed figures seen throughout the game.
The rags the figures appear to be wrapped in are actually ceremonial robes.

Pyramid Head from Silent Hill 2

One notable connection between Pyramid Head and Valtiel is the fact that they both stalk the protagonist persistently.

If the helmet that conceals Pyramid Head's face were to be removed, it would become apparent that the designs of the two are surprisingly similar. When the executioner's outfit that is Pyramid Head was designed, it was modeled after Valtiel, an angel from the indigenous religion.

IMAGE: Pyramid Head
Pyramid Head's gloves are very similar to Valtiel's.

IMAGE: molesting the mannequin
At the back of the garment Pyramid Head wears, there is a mark stitched into the cloth, which is also a shared characteristic.

SECTION FIVE: Making of Valtiel
(note: the three images here are hand-drawn sketches)

IMAGE: turning the valves
One of the early designs of Valtiel turning the valve handle. The central hole closely resembles the one in the final church.

IMAGE: from the elevator scene
A rough sketch of a design in which multiple creatures seem to be intertwined. The hole at the top of the creature's head is the same as in the final design.

IMAGE: behind the propeller blades
There is also a scene in the elevator with a giant propeller and Valtiel. The propeller has a handle as well, which has the same implication as the valve.
Creators' Commentary: The connection to the first game is quite clear, but the relationship with the second isn't so obvious. I wanted to give relevance to the creatures of the series because it motivates me to continue the creative process. In the religion of Silent Hill, those who are close to God through Valtiel borrow his form as Pyramid Head. That is to say, Pyramid Head was born from the townspeoples' ideas about showing devotion to God. In the first game, the ceremonial robes were an homage to Valtiel.
----

The reason I put the Red Pyramid Thing before Vatiel was to make the explanations a little clearer and to not confuse you after reading the Vatiel part.

Anyway, what the text wanted you to know is that Vatiel is an angel, not a god; and that the idea of the Red Pyramid thing is derived from Vatiel. So, in a way, they were trying to say that Vatiel is not Lobsol Vith (the yellow god) and the Red Pyramid Thing is not Xuchilbara (the red god).

Though not explicitly stated, you can gather this from the translation. The reasoning behind this is that Vatiel is a promonent angel in the town's religion (which is separate from the town's cult, but that is another story). He watches over the town and protects "god." The Red Pyramid Thing is the form that the "townspeople" assume whenever they invoke Vatiel. The form of the Red Pyramid Thing is derived from James' subconscious as he saw it before on his first trip to Silent Hill. But according to the text, the form is that of Vatiel invoked by another person. This explains why there are more than one Red Pyramid Things; more than one person is invoking Vatiel. This can also explain why the Red Pyramid Thing acts so randomly; because they are people, their actions will vary based on the person.

It's a little hard to understand, but this just basically means that the Red Pyramid Thing is just a composite figure from various origins, which makes it unique to the person who sees it.

Vatiel is another story as he appears in his true form in Silent Hill 3. This being has many different roles, but basically he serves as a beign figure to the town's religion. In other words, he is part of the good guys.

Also, despite the idea that the hand crank is not a representation of the gatekeeper to the other world, it still holds a meaning to a cycle: the cycle of rebirth. As stated in the text, Vatiel is the being responsible for the control of reincarnation/resurrection. Everytime Heather dies in SH3, Vatiel is responsible from reviving Heather and she wakes up again at the Happy Burger.

This same idea can also be extended to SH1, since Harry dies in the bad endings and is reset back in the 5 to 2 Cafe during Next Fear games. I always wondered how Dalhia was able to revive him, but it seems that she uses Vatiel to resurrect him.

I think this will require a little more time to sink in, so I will hold further explanations of Vatiel and the Red Pyramid Thing to queries. I will explain the difference between the religion of Silent Hill and the cult in another post.

EDIT: But why include her in the gravestone bit? Does it have a symbolic meaning or something? If so, then what? I haven't seen the film myself, so I know nothing of what's happening in it. Cool to see that someone had figured that one out.

There is a statue in Rosewater Park dedicated to Miriam K. It explains the reason she was killed for being a traitor. I believe that it is the statue where you unearth the Silent Hill Historical Society key.

Eccles

07-18-2004, 10:43 PM

But what I don't see is… have a closer look on all of the gravestones... WHO THE HECK IS MIRIAM K? And why she is also labelled as "traitor"? Is that an inside Konami joke or something else? If anyone knows, please give me an answer, it’s been driving me nuts.
Miriam K is a character from Alfred Hitchcocks 'Psycho'

But why include her in the gravestone bit? Does it have a symbolic meaning or something? If so, then what? I haven't seen the film myself, so I know nothing of what's happening in it. Cool to see that someone had figured that one out. :)
It's worth putting in because it's an outside reference which Silent Hill *LOVES* (Though there weren't half as many in Silent Hill 2...guess James didnt watch as many horror movies as Harry)

Also: Ifrit just explained somewhat why they put her in the catacombs.

Also, does anyone notice how totally different their Silent hill game stats are in the second run through?
Take SH3 for instance...my first playthrough: 6 hours 37 saves.
My second playthrough? 1:30 hours, 2 saves.
Love it :D

ifirit

07-23-2004, 09:46 AM

Well, I guess it's time for another...

Silent Hill 4 Update:

For a limited time, US Playstion 2 and X-Box owners who pre-order their copies of Silent Hill 4: The Room at EB Games will recieve a FREE copy of the SH4 soundtrack with their purchase. You can find details about this special offer at the EB Games website. [Playstation 2 (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/242395.asp)] [X-Box (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/242382.asp)]

In addition to this, you can now download the TV commercials to Silent Hill 4: The Room from www.sh2004.com. (Assuming that you haven't already seen them on television.) There is both a 30-second (http://www.konamityo.com/sh4/dl/sh4_30_cm.wmv.lzh) clip and a 15-second (http://www.konamityo.com/sh4/dl/sh4_15_cm.wmv.lzh) clip. (Please note that an LZH decompressor is required.) Or if you'd like, you can get them off my site (http://www.angelfire.com/scary/pyrokinesis/special/index.html).

Lastly, I've rotated the songs again. As always, they will be available for one week, as that is when I rotate them.

Justamos3

07-23-2004, 09:57 AM

Do you need to play the first two silen hills to understand the third?

Nevy

07-23-2004, 01:27 PM

Justamos3 -- To understand Silent Hill 3, it helps to have played and completed Silent Hill 1 with the 'best ending' ... otherwise, you're kinda left out of the loop on SH3. As for Silent Hill 2, it's practically a completely different story, and has no relation (not that I caught) to either SH1 or SH3.

ifirit -- They also have the same (if not similar) deal at GameStop.com ... do you know if the actual stores (EBgames and GameStop, of course) are having the same Bonus deal, if you pre-order at the actual store location, or is it only available through their websites?

Illaminus

07-23-2004, 09:56 PM

The soundtracks to be released along with the game. Is that for US release only?

Eccles

07-25-2004, 10:57 PM

A little on the psychological aspect of Silent hill 2.

Unlike Silent Hill 1 which mostly relied on body shocks to scare you (who didnt leap out of their chair the first time they saw the kid fall out the locker?) Silent Hill 2 went deeper into the human brain to try and shock and unnerve you on a whole new level.

One of the ways they did this was to tap into Sigmund Freuds idea of the two basic instincts that make people tick; Eros and Thanatos.

Freud said that Eros was the sex drive...the concept that people are constantly acting in ways that can be seen as preservative, either to themselves or others: going to the gym, eating healthy food, having sex and so on.

Thanatos is just the reverse...the idea that people are constantly acting in ways that can harm them or get themselves killed; drinking, smoking, having sex and so on.

Freud suggested that these two work in perfect equilibrium...and that if one of the two was more powerful than the other, serious psychological disturbances would occur.

Now, Silent hill 2 works on this concept. They appeal to the sex drive whilst also empathising the death drive...
Take maria. She represents James' sexual feelings (it's obvious that he has some degree of feelings for her, not to mention the fact she's Mary's clone)...the way she acts towards James is usually very sexy and alluring (save for two instances I can think of. The first being when she snaps "I'm not your mary" and the second when youre in the asylum basement...although even then she calms down and holds James) and yet whenever you get the idea that a relationship might be formed between Maria and James...bang, she's dead. Now, this also represents a torture for James, but in psychological terms it's appealing to the eros/thanatos equilibrium.

They also did this when they came to designing the monsters. A lot of the monsters in SH2 are meant to depict sex and death as a combination...that's why the dead nurses are wearing such sexy outfits (it's a common male fantasy...the kinky nurse...how better to shock someone by demonising their fantasies?). Also, the mannequins are supposed to appeal to people who have leg and/or latex fantasies (hence the shiney, curvy legs).

Like I said, the principle behind this was to toy with peoples basic instincts and unnerve them on the lowest, most commonplace possible level.

Also, while I'm talking about monster design; The fact that the humans appear as monsters also represents James' vision of Mary. They look human...but horrible, disfigured humans...just like the dying mary did. Similarly, the straight-jacket skins could be indicative of Mary's predicament: trapped inside their own skin with no way of escaping, doing all they can to avoid James once they know for sure they can't go on.
(There's an interesting story behind how they were created. The monster designer saw his friend walking towards him wearing a hooded top...he had his hands in his pockets and was strutting...so the monster designer jotted this down and created the straightjacket skin)

The original design for pyramid head was also a lot different than the final design. They initially created him to look like Venom from Guilty gear X:
http://www.sammystudios.com/games/ggx2/images/S_char_venom.jpg
http://www.sammystudios.com/games/ggx/images/venom_img_04.gif
http://klub.zary.com.pl/WWW_Klientow/GGx-%20pliki/Fotos/Male_Tapety/320x214/VENOM_small.jpg

but they realised that this didnt fit the image they were looking for: All it was was a man in a hood, and that doesnt make for a very good scare factor. So they went nuts and gave him a pyramid helmet...According to the DVD:
"The triangles represent the monsters role in the game and the sharp edges and corners suggest the possibility of pain".
They dont say what the monsters role is exactly, but this gives us something to consider. I dont think the PH has much to do with Angela...because she doesn't see him (or at least, she doesnt SAY that she sees him: Considering silent hill 2 works on the 'hell is what you bring to it' concept, I think they were made for James and nobody else).

I think he's representative of James' thanatos...considering maria engages his Eros, then it seems only right that the Pyramid head is appealing to his bloodlust: since PH is the only other person who sees Maria and Maria is the only other person who sees PH.

I'd love to go on...and I could go on for hours, just like I did with my FF7 term paper (in fact, I'm thinking of deconstructing the series like and making it into a term paper) but right now I need to go to bed. So goodnight, y'all...
Class dismissed. You can go outside and play now.

I-n-j-i-n

07-25-2004, 11:04 PM

The funny thing is, I don't find nurses to be very attractive at all. Nor the curvy legs. It'd be funny if that has anything to do with me thinking that SH2 was one of the least scary SH games I've played.

And they really thought PH's big head is scary? Maybe it would've worked if it was bleeding or something.

But goddam. SH4 seems to have taken the big-headed thing a bit far. That one screenshot of the giganto-woman-head.

That actually freaks me out.

http://xboxmedia.gamespy.com/xbox/image/article/524/524977/silent-hill-4-the-room-20040621101245015.jpg

StarZander

07-25-2004, 11:10 PM

The credits songtitle is "Angels Thanatos". What would this mean then?

SLyGeN

07-25-2004, 11:14 PM

The funny thing is, I don't find nurses to be very attractive at all. Nor the curvy legs. It'd be funny if that has anything to do with me thinking that SH2 was one of the least scary SH games I've played.

And they really thought PH's big head is scary? Maybe it would've worked if it was bleeding or something.

But goddam. SH4 seems to have taken the big-headed thing a bit far. That one screenshot of the giganto-woman-head.

That actually freaks me out.

http://xboxmedia.gamespy.com/xbox/image/article/524/524977/silent-hill-4-the-room-20040621101245015.jpg

8O
AAH!!

i only played a bit of Silent Hill 1, and i never saw anything like THAT!

SleazyC

07-25-2004, 11:23 PM

The soundtracks to be released along with the game. Is that for US release only?

I'm not sure about the US release containing the soundtrack, but I managed to snatch up one of the Limited Edition Silent Hill 4 OST's from the Konamistyle website (someone picked one up for me while they were in Japan) and it is amazing. The main theme song is great, if you have seen any of the trailers, you have heard it its a song called "Room of Angels" I def. suggest importing the album if you can find a copy of it.

I-n-j-i-n

07-25-2004, 11:25 PM

I really hope the SH4 soundtrack comes with the game again (for the Xbox version too hopefully).

Buying an entire soundtrack for ambient music + cover sounds stupid to me.

Eccles

07-26-2004, 07:18 AM

The funny thing is, I don't find nurses to be very attractive at all. Nor the curvy legs. It'd be funny if that has anything to do with me thinking that SH2 was one of the least scary SH games I've played.
Well it was very touch and go with Silent hill 2 going psychological...a lot of people didn't find it very scary at all because they opted to wage psychological warfare on you rather than shocking you.
Personally I think they got the right mix of shock and psychological horror in SH3 (voices in the morgue, anyone?)...it's just I think SH3 is the least scary because (a) it's so easy, (b) it's so short and (c) it's just silly in parts.

And they really thought PH's big head is scary? Maybe it would've worked if it was bleeding or something.
They didn't necessarily think that giving him a big head would be scary, but that if they dehumanised him further than just covering his face he'd be scarier. And they were right, it was scarier than just a man in a mask. People know how to kill a man...but very few know how to slay demons.

It's one of the reasons the Daleks were so terrifying when Dr.Who came out...these small, unthinking, unquestioning, emotionless killing machines...they wouldn't have been half as scary had they been humans running about screaming 'EXTERMINATE! ANIHILATE! DESTROY!" or if they had had human voices rather than monotone (emotionless again) robotic ones.

The credits songtitle is "Angels Thanatos". What would this mean then?
This would mean something along the lines of "Angels deathwish"
If I recall correctly this one comes after the water ending...though I dunno, so I wont speculate as to the meaning until I know for sure.

The titles of the tracks mean quite a lot...especially in SH2.
'Magdalene', for instance, is the music that plays when you find Maria dead in the jail cell. The title almost certainly refers to Mary Magdalene; a prostitute from the bible who was the woman who found Jesus had come back to life (or at least that his tomb was empty)...only rather finding that someone lives again you're finding that someone had died again. again. again.

The reverse will...the track that plays when James goes nuts and tries to resurrect Mary (rebirth ending, for the 2 people in the world who havent gotten there yet)...obviously this is referring to the fact that it was someone/somethings (God, fate, chance, science, whatever you wish) will for Mary to die and James is reversing this.

True: the music that plays when you find out why you're in Silent Hill (I gots to say, I love the way they had mary talking to you over the radio at this point...that was classic)

You could say the same about SH1:
Not tomorrow (1 and 2) play when youre talking to lisa (1 plays when she does her 'I get it now' bit and version 2 plays when she starts bleeding)

My heaven is the music that plays when you fight Samael/the godess, She (or 'house of the rising sun' as Stan calls it)

Killing time...now this can be taken in one of two ways. Killing Time as in 'to waste time'...or Killing time as in 'time to kill things'; I'm leaning towards the latter, since it's the music that plays when you get the bad ending (having killed Cybil and Alessa and having let Dhalia and Kaufmann die).

I-n-j-i-n

07-26-2004, 07:37 AM

^

Yep. You got the Magdalene part completely correct. Though her being a "prostitute" is possibly just sexual politics that has been trumpheted by the Church. But I'm going on a tangent here.

IMO, one of the most intriguing parts of SH is not always the monsters, but the salvation of the hero and how some things oddly seem to have been made out to help out the main characters in SH games.

In SH1, it was made a bit obvious with all the Metatron references. I like the way Metatron seems to help the survivors in the most obscure ways possible.

Hell. Even in SH3, the seal of Metatron seemed useless. But was it really? There's so much mystery in how the archangel works in the SH games. Pretty interesting really.

Eccles

07-26-2004, 07:46 PM

I-n-j-i-n

07-27-2004, 04:20 AM

Yep. You got the Magdalene part completely correct. Though her being a "prostitute" is possibly just sexual politics that has been trumpheted by the Church. But I'm going on a tangent here.
Yeah, they probably were...it's just I was always told Mary magdalene was a hooker, so thats now I repeat it when talking about her.

Well, the theory was that Jesus actually married Magdalene (sounds like the Harry, Mary situation), and had kids.

And you need to have sex to have kids. And the Church hates sex. So what do they do? Brand Magdalene as a prostitute. Makes perfect sense in a way.

flipsideshooze

07-28-2004, 04:34 AM

[quote=I-n-j-i-n]And they really thought PH's big head is scary? Maybe it would've worked if it was bleeding or something.
They didn't necessarily think that giving him a big head would be scary, but that if they dehumanised him further than just covering his face he'd be scarier. And they were right, it was scarier than just a man in a mask. People know how to kill a man...but very few know how to slay demons.

but... man... seeing a dude, standing htere, totally motionless behind those bars in a mask (when we first see pyramid head)... that would be a whole lot scarier, i do believe...

that's just my two cents though, cause i love the theories you've given :)

Kadosho

07-28-2004, 09:00 AM

On the note of PH, odd fellow. *and most obscure moment (a bit of a "ahem" subject to speak of)
+====
Another note on Metatron, its given that of the "hero" or "anti-hero" what they want to do, how to change this world. Its why they are there in the first place, as a test.
+====
But for Heather, it was more re-awakening to being who she actaully is, even though at a cost.
+====
How Silent Hill, it reflects on you and all about it.

Justamos3

07-28-2004, 09:07 AM

I want to find a game that will scare my ass. So far I hve narrowed it down to Eternal Darkness or something from the Silent Hill series. Suggestions?

Eccles

07-29-2004, 06:37 AM

I want to find a game that will scare my ass. So far I hve narrowed it down to Eternal Darkness or something from the Silent Hill series. Suggestions?
Silent hill 1 is more of a body shock game...though it can be quite block and looks kinda dated (some people have issues with that, for some reason).

SH 2 looks a lot more realistic but works on scaring the player on an entirely psychological level. It'll either be one of the most disturbing things you ever played...or just a really creepy game. I dont think I've found a middle ground.

SH3...it's not a prerequisite that you play SH1 before SH3, it's just that SH3 will make a lot more sense if you play SH1 first (despite heather giving a total plot synopsis half-way through, the game uses a lot of clips from SH1, that make a lot more sense if you see them in context)

I-n-j-i-n

07-29-2004, 06:51 AM

^

100% correct. I would actually recommend SH2, then moving onto SH1 then SH3. It just seems to flow better that way IMO.

As for Eternal Darkness, it's great in a way that it's pretty spooky, except you'd have a much better arsenal than found in RE and SH games. Especially the way you can target body parts. Also ED feels more of an epic than anything. Cool to see another person join the ED bandwagon.

Global-Trance

07-29-2004, 11:05 AM

The funny thing is, I don't find nurses to be very attractive at all. Nor the curvy legs. It'd be funny if that has anything to do with me thinking that SH2 was one of the least scary SH games I've played.

And they really thought PH's big head is scary? Maybe it would've worked if it was bleeding or something.

But goddam. SH4 seems to have taken the big-headed thing a bit far. That one screenshot of the giganto-woman-head.

That actually freaks me out.

http://xboxmedia.gamespy.com/xbox/image/article/524/524977/silent-hill-4-the-room-20040621101245015.jpg

W
T
F
.
.
.

I'm going to love Silent Hill 4.

Eccles

07-29-2004, 07:30 PM

From the story I am writing about Silent Hill (the third one...the one that's gonna be a series of reports).

Looking over the archived diaries of residents I found recurring references to a 'demon' that supposedly stalks Silent Hill:
"I must be going insane. I coulda sworn I saw the executioner today...but I dunno why, I never did nothin wrong in my life, not to warrant him turning up."

"I saw something strange today when I was playing with Carly. A funny looking man with a triangle hat on...he was just watching us play, but it made us feel weird so we went inside and told daddy. He says we were going crazy and acted kinda nervy...but I know I'm not mad, I saw the man"

"The worst demon is the one with the pyramid helmet. He just doesnt give up until he's killed...of course, you could try running from him...but then all that happens is you die tired."

So I did some more research into this thing that'd freaked out so many townsfolk. It turns out that what the people were describing is a kids horror story...a monster going by the alias of 'The Executioner'. Supposedly the reincarnated soul of an old hangman gone nuts, he takes out anybody who he doesn't see as worthy to live in 'his' town. I asked some kids about him and they all knew who he was...one of 'em even recited a rhyme about him; I managed to look up the full version of the poem...but I warn you, it's somewhat morbid:

-Executioner (Anon)-
He doesn't think. He doesn't feel.
He doesn't laugh or cry.
All he does, from dawn till dusk...
Is make bad people die

He makes sure you hearh im coming.
To fill your heart with dread.
For when you hear his awful noise.
You know you'll soon be dead.

You can take up arms against him
and try and try and try
but you will not succeed, my friend
because he cannot die.

Dont try to run, dont try to hide
Dont find someone to tell
If you do, the executioner
Will send you straight to hell.

He doesn't think. He doesn't feel.
He doesn't laugh or cry.
All he does, from dawn till dusk...
Is make the sinners die
-----

Did I mention it was morbid?
There're several variations on the poem, but this seems to be the earliest recorded (and most consistent) version I've been able to find. I think it's worth noting that no matter what version you read, they all start and end with a verse talking about how emotionally detached executioner is from his work; all of them varying from the one in the above poem (for instance: He never thinks, he never feels, he never laughs, he never cries. He does, however, make sure that whoever sees him dies. (J.Gaskell, sometime in the 1900s))

The earliest mention of the executioner as a monster is in 1820, when two came at once. Firstly in the form of a picture by artist Allen Smith, which depicted a large man with a red pyramid-shaped helmet weilding a large sword in front of masses of hanging bodies. The second sighting comes from a townsperson calling himself Harold Agannis...he claimed to have seen "a man in a large redde [sic] helmet who did not move, standing as if dead. I watched him for nigh on three hours when he did vanish before mine eyes."
Sadly, however, there's no way to tell which came first. Did the guy see the executioner and from this inspire Smith? Or did Smiths tortured images put the ideas into Agannis' head?
It could be either...and frankly, it's not important, just know that the executioner made his debut some time in 1820.

As for what he's supposed to represent...that was ever so slightly easy. They don't call him executioner for nothing...during the civil war, the hangmen in Silent hill prison wore triangular hoods when they were performing the executions. It seems that whoever came up with the monster did so by demonising the executioners from the war. This is also supported when you consider the monsters role according to accounts/the poem: taking sinners and bringing them to the ultimate justice.

Naturally I have more to do. but this is just a clip from one of the story's I'm writing (I wrote the poem during my lunch break today...pretty good, ne?)

Eccles

07-31-2004, 09:02 AM

what...nobody liked the pyramid head poetry? I know it was cheesy, but surely not that bad...

Alrighty, a little synopsis of what I wrote, there (Cause I got nothing better to do).

I took the liberty of referring to Pyramid head as 'executioner' owing to his origins in Silent hill jail/toulca prison.

The young girls diary referring to her playing games with Carly was based off the letter from the lost days that's in SH3 (one of the lines in the song reads: "Am I still friends with Carly?/I'm sure that I'm still laughing/Aren't I?/Aren't I?) Though in retrospect (and listening to the track through *good* speakers it could also sound like Colleen...if so, I'll change it.

The first (and last) verses of the poem are a slightly altered version of a verse on a M:tG card. I can't remember what it's called (Phyrexian reaver, I think) but its a relic card and carries the verse "It doesnt think, it doesnt feel it doesnt laugh or cry. All it does from dawn till dusk is make the soldiers die". Incidentally, the guy who I credited with writing an alternative version of the poem (J.Gaskell) is one of my friends, James.

The picture painted in 1820 is the one in the historical society (to be honest I forgot the name, so I worked round it).

Harold Agannis is the name of a guy who stars in an interesting ghost story. Apparently Telly Salavas (Kojak) got a lift from Mr.Agannis in a blacked out skylark...and just before Salavas got out, Agannis said to him "I have to go now and face my destiny."
So the next day Salavas called the Agannis family (obviously he'd known the guys name when they'd talked as they drove) only to find that Harold Agannis had been dead for several weeks. Apparently he'd been driving his skylark and had hit an oil tanker on the stretch of road he'd dropped Salavas off on...the impact and explosion only burned him so the driver of the tanker broke his neck to save the pain.
Absolutely no relevance to the story, mind you, I just think that Harold Agannis is a good name to have put in there as an in-reference.

And yes, I think that's it. You can figure out the rest easy enough.

Global-Trance

07-31-2004, 09:15 AM

what...nobody liked the pyramid head poetry? I know it was cheesy, but surely not that bad...

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. Good stuff, Eccles. Silent Hill + Poetry = Win

StarZander

07-31-2004, 11:35 AM

I liked that poem. It could very easily have been cheesy, but you succeeded in avoiding that. I liked the intro/outro best though. Shame you ripped those :P

And I believe she is singing "Colleen" and not "Carly" in that song. I've listened to it many many times, in very good speakers I might add, so I'm pretty sure of it.

StarZander

07-31-2004, 01:22 PM

Best cosplayer I've ever seen:

http://www.whatthefun.net/sh/visuals/04-ph01.jpg

Illaminus

07-31-2004, 01:37 PM

Eccles

07-31-2004, 04:19 PM

A little on the psychological aspect of Silent hill 2...

Thanks for sharing that Dr.Eccles earlier on, I just read it and I found that to be a very interesting read. :)

If you've got more stuff/thoughts around like that, please share more. :D
I will do when I've gotten enough to constitute a good post.

I liked that poem. It could very easily have been cheesy, but you succeeded in avoiding that. I liked the intro/outro best though. Shame you ripped those :P
Yeah. Well it was a good verse, so I had to use it.
The rest is all original though. Came up with it one lunchtime at work :D

And I believe she is singing "Colleen" and not "Carly" in that song. I've listened to it many many times, in very good speakers I might add, so I'm pretty sure of it.
Yeah, well my speakers suck-ass. So I'll change the diary to read Colleen, rather than Carly.

Eccles

08-01-2004, 12:29 PM

I am very *VERY* pissed off. I had typed up a nice big long synopsis of the plot of SH1 but the window crashed as I hit submit. It didn't even register that I'd copied the text to the clipboard >.<

So here we go again. Synopsis of the plot of SH1 and SH3 assuming you get the good+ ending in SH1 (which the game wants you to do, and which SH3 assumes you do).
As if it needs saying...
ZOMG SPOILARS ABOUT SILENT HILL OEN AND TREE!!!1"

Seven years before Silent Hill 1:
Harold (harry) Mason and his wife are on holiday in Silent Hill.
The hope house cult (those who worship Samael) burn down the house of their leader (Dahlia Gillespie) with the intention of killing Dahlias daughter Alessa so that they can resurrect her with Samaels soul inside of her, feeling that if they give Samael a new body she will give them all they desire.
The sacrifice, however, doesnt go as planned and Alessa ends up only losing half of her soul.

Half of Alessas soul escapes her body and manifests itself into the form of a small baby, which Harry and his wife find as theyre leaving Silent Hill. They adopt the child and name her Cheryl.

Half of Alessas soul stays in her body and slowly grows in power while she plots her revenge on the cult who tried to kill her.

Alessas body was put into one of the hospitals (I'm guessing Alchemilla, since this is more of a hospital, whereas brookhaven is a psychiatric institute) and she was tended to by Lisa Garland. While in hospital she sympathised with another terminally ill patient, Mary Shepherd-Sunderland and grew angry at her husband James for being such a cold man...losing her temper when he killed Mary, dragging James back to Silent hill so she can torture him some (but now I'm straying. Back to the story)

The days leading up to Silent hill 1:
Harrys wife has died and Harry himself works as a freelance journalist.
Dahlia has enlisted the help of a Doctor/Drug dealer (Kaufmann).
Lisa probably died. While there's nothing concrete in the game to prove this, it's the most likely situation given how she is portrayed in relation to the rest of the game.

Harry decides it is time for the annual holiday that he and Cheryl take: deciding (on account of Cheryls request) to go to Silent hill again. While driving there, Harry sees a vision of Alessa stepping out in front of his jeep, which causes him to try and turn the jeep, sliding it down a hill and into Silent Hill (We know he spun the jeep out of control from the opening video and we know it slid down an incline owing to the position its in when the game starts. Harry was driving next to crash barriers and whent he game begins the jeep is nose down in the road with its back wheels up in the air).

When Harry arrives in Silent hill, Cheryl ceases to exist as an entity on her own and becomes part of Alessa. Harry sees a vision of her and gives chase, however he finds himself backed into a corner and killed.

Alessa realises what she's done and brings him back to life (some people say so she can torture him more, but I choose to see it as an apology and a cry for help) and Harry ends up inside the cafe (Cybil most likely took him there, since she is not at all surprised to see him) and in the cafe he meets Cybil Bennet, a police officer from Brahms, a town near Silent Hill (Supposedly to the east, since Portland is north, Paleville is west and the lake is to the south). She tells Harry she'll go looking for help, gives him protection from the monsters and leaves.

Harry then goes through hell trying to find his Daughter...all the while helped along by Alessa who puts items and the like around town to give him support.

As Harry gets closer to alessa, the monsters he encounters become bigger, stronger and more grotesque...this signifies to the player two things
1) Alessa is getting more powerful
2) Youre getting closer to the source of the monsters.

In the end, you wake up in Nowhere...an ironic title since the level consists of pieces from everywhere in the game; the school, the hospital, the churches and so on...and after fighting your way through it, you find yourself confronting Dahlia Gillespie. She tells you that youve been seeing Cheryl all along...and before you can get a proper explanation from her, she's gunned down and Kaufmann turns up, angry at being used (Quite how he was used he doesnt say, however Im willing to put a small sum of money on the fact that it's to do with his drugs and such being used in the resurrecting of Samael) and throws a vial of red liquid (Aglaophotis) at the angel-like figure standing in the middle of the room...who then collapses and turns into Samael.

After Harry manages to gun down Samael, Alessa once again appears. She stops time briefly and hands Harry a baby...which he then takes and runs, Cybil in tow. Lisa, previously thought to be dead, turns up and assaults Kaufmann (for reasons I discussed earlier. If anyone wants a recap I can give one), leaving Harry and Cybil free to go...the two simply run as fast as they can into the fog of the town and don't stop...eventually Harry finds himself alone in the dark again...only now he is holding a baby, which he adopts and names Heather.

Seventeen years after SH1:
Fearing he would be hunted down and asked about what he did in Silent Hill, Harold Mason (then 49) had changed his name to Harold Morris (though he still lived by the name Harry) and was living in Portland.

Dahlias sister Claudia tried to do what her sister couldnt (IE: Bring Samael to life and unleash hell upon the world) and so hired PI Douglas Cartland to find Heather, which he manages to do. When she has a positive address for Heather, Claudia hires the missionary to kill Harry...partly as revenge for 'kidnapping' Heather and partly to make Heather angry so Samael will be born quicker and will be more powerful when she was.

Douglas realises that he picked the wrong side to be on when Heather first unleashes her powers and sends the mall to hell. After the missionary does his job and is killed by Heather, Douglas switches sides and offers to help Heather all he can...though this simply means driving her to Silent Hill (Since he does nothing useful during the rest of the game).

Before coming to Silent Hill, however, she meets a man named Vincent who knows all about her and her past. Later, Heather learns that Vincent was working with Claudia (or rather, Claudia was working under Vincent) and the two had been sharing knowledge on Heather.
(Although vincent protests "You mean Claudia? Please! Don’t lump me together with her", the game later reveals this to mean they simply do not share the same views on God and what she does as well as the power of money, since Vincent is the father at Claudias church).

While in Silent Hill, Heather is contacted by Leonard Wolf, Claudias father...who tells Heather that Claudia must be stopped before she can bring the false paradise to the world...however he soon changes his tune when Heather doesnt play his way and so attacks her (or sets a monster on her. One or the other, I'm leaning towards the second, since I dont buy into the 'monsters are people' schtick).

Heather learns about her past, coming to the conclusion that she is, in fact, Alessa Gillespie...and thus Cheryl Mason (while she doesn't especially care about this fact, it is something worth noting).

Heather continues through Silent hill...going to the amusement park and finding out more about her fathers journey...eventually ending up in Hope House...a bizarre church that, like the first game, comprises parts of previous areas in the game.

In the end she finds Vincent and Claudia arguing about who and what God is as well as what she should do. Claudia kills Vincent for betraying the principles of God and begins to summon Samael out of Heather. Heather, however, recovers (giving one of the funniest lines from the game "Shut yer stinkin' mouth, BITCH") and takes a pill of solidified Aglaophotis (that Harry had had made for her after his second trip to Silent Hill...the one when he found her), causing her to vomit up God's foetus, which Claudia then devours, saying she will give birth to God if Heather wont.

Heather then finds Claudia has vanished and been replaced with a grotesque demonised version of Alessa. After killing this God, Heather leaves the chruch and goes back to Douglas who is waiting for her...after joking a little, the two recap that Heather Morris is, in fact, Cheryl Mason.
What happens from here we dont know...the game doesnt tell us, though it does hint that Heather went to live with Douglas.

[/spoilers]
Stuff from SH3 that refers to other things:
There are posters about the mall that feature the girl from Les Miserables
There're posters about the mall advertising "Tirn aill" and "The revolt of Tirn Aill". TA is an old MUORPG and The revolt of tirn aill is a webcomic.
There's a poster for SH2 up in the mall (near to the phones, if I recall correctly)...its the one of Angela that they put up in video game stores when they were about to release SH2.
Obviously the toilet joke in SH3 is a reference to the wallet from SH2.
Borley haunted mansion is a reference to Borley Rectory, the most haunted house in England (in fact, the poster for the house has a picture of the rectory on it: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=12
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=10
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=11
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=14

There's a remix of 'mad world' in there. In the next to last cutscene (the big long one when Claudia and Vincent argue, then Heather turns up) a quiet piano version of the Gary Jules track 'Mad world' (Yes, I know tears for fears did it...but Jules' version is better, so nyah)
http://tkey.net/midi/madworld/jules_mad_world.mid <--There's the original. That piano riff plays in the background of the video

Also, I worked something out. For the longest time the puzzle in SH3 confused me...
14 + 7 + 17 = 38

I got the 7 and the 17 (Cheryl and Heathers ages added together) but I couldnt get 14...until just now. It's how old Alessa was when Harry killed her the first time round.

And now, as my fingers are falling off...I hit the submit button, pray to Zanzidorf, the great many eyed squirrel of the four winds and go for a cup of tea.

Jeffward

08-01-2004, 12:42 PM

Silent Hill 1 is probably THE scariest game I have ever played. (although, I haven't played the other two yet, so I don't know.) I first played it when I was 7 or 8, man, scared the shit right outta me. I couldn't sleep for weeks! I HATED the hospitol, and all of the doctors and nurses walking around with huge boils on their backs and such. And that part in the beginning when you get killed by zombies when your in that dream.... ' shudders ' I really need to pick that game back up to see if it still has the same chill factor.

Tranquil Chaos

08-01-2004, 09:44 PM

according to the book of lost memories, silent hill 2 takes place 2 years before sh3... which puts it 15 years after sh1.

your synopsis is cool, but your timeline is off.

*Edit* Upon further inspection, more of your info is incorrect... I hate to nitpick and Im not going into all of it, but you should definitely try to find some book of lost memories translations. They contradict several of your key facts.

StarZander

08-01-2004, 09:52 PM

Ventrex

08-01-2004, 10:29 PM

The Lost Memories book is cool, all in all, but it ruins everything for people like us, who love to theorize about these games, since now the SH team have made theory into fact. They just took the fun out of it, but I'll just be stubborn and claim that they're WRONG, and that I'm right. Yeah, that's what I'll do. Yeah...

Thank you for being the one person in the world who agrees with me on this. But Lost Memories is not too bad; a lot of the information it presents it more of a, "Oh, the sewer monsters are based on bad sushi Toyama had on his vacation to Canada in 1967," brand of useless fact. Still, it does get into depth sometimes, and I really don't like the idea of releasing something that basically amounts to, "SILENT HILL: THE EXPLANATION."

Tranquil Chaos

08-01-2004, 11:47 PM

Some of the info is extremely useful, though. I like interpretations, but some of the theories Ive heard are just retarded. The lost memories book helps eliminate that brand of wild speculation.

StarZander

08-02-2004, 01:56 AM

Some of the info is extremely useful, though. I like interpretations, but some of the theories Ive heard are just retarded. The lost memories book helps eliminate that brand of wild speculation.

I tend to like wild speculation, as long as it's still reasonable. But yes, many theories lack a good foundation, but I haven't heard any REALLY ridiculous theories though. Could you give me an example of these retarded ones?

Tranquil Chaos

08-02-2004, 05:46 AM

I frequent a silent hill forum... Some of the theories that fly around over there are just silly.

The site is down right now, but I'll link it when it gets up and running.

StarZander

08-02-2004, 05:01 PM

Aah, well I guess having an entire forum about Silent Hill, will generate a few spam threads about it, but having only a single thread in a gaming forum, is different. Then only the more serious SH gamers come out to play, and write theories.

I-n-j-i-n

08-02-2004, 05:39 PM

Heh, I bet the tangent theories are there because people would be bored if only one group of theories are right, and others aren't.

There's still many ways to look at the story of the Silent Hill franchise despite what the developers of the game says. It's a type of series that different individuals can see different things about it.

I've yet to hear of anything about Silent Hill that would explain the way the turn seemingly transforms. That and the headaches all the main characters get. It could even be a hallucinatory, mental thing instead of those monsters actually existing.

ifirit

08-06-2004, 12:35 AM

So much to discuss, so little time. Where do I begin? Well, first I have to give my appreciation and admiration to Eccles for his short, Silent Hill fan fiction on the fairytale of the "Executioner," as well as his discussions to the topic of Silent Hill. The report was very well-worded and used the same style of writing as the series. (Thought, it's surprising how many grammar errors were in that post. Remember to include articles before nouns and to add apostrophes on contractions. But, I digress.)

A little on the psychological aspect of Silent hill 2
I really enjoyed your post on the balance between the Thantos and Eros with respect to James' state of mind. It draws on very basic emotions and desires of people, so I'd like to explore it more once I've had time to contemplate the resulting consequences to James' actions.

ifirit -- They also have the same (if not similar) deal at GameStop.com ... do you know if the actual stores (EBgames and GameStop, of course) are having the same Bonus deal, if you pre-order at the actual store location, or is it only available through their websites?

It might be a little late, but better than never; anyway, the EBGames offer is good for both pre-orders placed on the website and pre-orders made to the store directly. The downside to pre-ordering the game at the store is that supplies of the Silent Hill 4 OST are limited in each store. And, only a select number of stores are participating in the offer. Also, if you pre-order from the store, you have to pick it up quickly as the in-store offer is on a first-come-first-serve basis. The best thing to do is to call the store and ask if they are participating in the offer, ask whether or not they have supplies available, check to see if the are any copies left, and to get to the store early.

But, to save me more time and money in the long run, I went ahead and pre-ordered off the website and will have the game sent to my house. Mailing orders will recieve the soundtrack based on the numerical order those pre-orders were recieved. Hopefully, I ordered in time to get a soundtrack.

The soundtracks to be released along with the game. Is that for US release only?
As far as I can tell, these offers are available to pre-orders placed in the US from EBGames or GameStop. Konami has officially released that a North American or European bundle (game and soundtrack) will not be released. So, the most assured way to get both the game and soundtrack together is to order the Japanese bundle and have it shipped to you, assuming you have a Japanese X-box, PS2, or a mod-chip. Actually, according to Japanese gamers, Silent Hill 4: The Room (Japanese release) already has a japanese and english translation available; which bothers me as to the need to wait so long between the Japanese and North American releases.

The funny thing is, I don't find nurses to be very attractive at all. Nor the curvy legs. It'd be funny if that has anything to do with me thinking that SH2 was one of the least scary SH games I've played.

And they really thought PH's big head is scary? Maybe it would've worked if it was bleeding or something.

But goddam. SH4 seems to have taken the big-headed thing a bit far. That one screenshot of the giganto-woman-head.

That actually freaks me out.

MARK YOUR SH4 SPOILERS!!!

Seriously, most people don't want to have any images spoiled for them in the new game. Try to post a link that contains the picture or the reference page for the image in the future, please. Nothing is worse than mistakingly seeing something you shouldn't have seen. In turn, I will try to better mark my SH1, SH2 and SH3 spoilers.

The credits songtitle is "Angels Thanatos". What would this mean then?
This would mean something along the lines of "Angels deathwish"
If I recall correctly this one comes after the water ending...though I dunno, so I wont speculate as to the meaning until I know for sure.

The titles of the tracks mean quite a lot...especially in SH2.
'Magdalene', for instance, is the music that plays when you find Maria dead in the jail cell. The title almost certainly refers to Mary Magdalene; a prostitute from the bible who was the woman who found Jesus had come back to life (or at least that his tomb was empty)...only rather finding that someone lives again you're finding that someone had died again. again. again.

The reverse will...the track that plays when James goes nuts and tries to resurrect Mary (rebirth ending, for the 2 people in the world who havent gotten there yet)...obviously this is referring to the fact that it was someone/somethings (God, fate, chance, science, whatever you wish) will for Mary to die and James is reversing this.

True: the music that plays when you find out why you're in Silent Hill (I gots to say, I love the way they had mary talking to you over the radio at this point...that was classic)

You could say the same about SH1:
Not tomorrow (1 and 2) play when youre talking to lisa (1 plays when she does her 'I get it now' bit and version 2 plays when she starts bleeding)

My heaven is the music that plays when you fight Samael/the godess, She (or 'house of the rising sun' as Stan calls it)

Killing time...now this can be taken in one of two ways. Killing Time as in 'to waste time'...or Killing time as in 'time to kill things'; I'm leaning towards the latter, since it's the music that plays when you get the bad ending (having killed Cybil and Alessa and having let Dhalia and Kaufmann die).

We seem to have spoken on this subject several times, but I do agree with you, DDE. The soundtrack titles have had apparent alternate meanings when put in relation to the story of the Silent Hill series. These are most obvious whenever Akira Yamaoka has been a lead or assistant producer on a game. It took me a while to understand that the producer for a project is the person who gets to decide what the subject, and the resulting storyline, will be for a game. So, the more closely Yamaoka-san works with the producers, the greater the impact on the music titles and lyrics.

It's funny that you mention that the theme to the "What do I want?" dialogue is a remix of "Mad World" by Gary Jules since it's also a rearrangement of "Breeze-In Monochrome Night" found earlier in the soundtrack (after Split Head Battle/speaking with Douglas at Mall). I wouldn't want to say that Akira Yamaoka used another person's work as his own, but it could have been intentional; I don't know. Still, that would be a good piece to remix for OCR. ;)

The Lost Memories book is cool, all in all, but it ruins everything for people like us, who love to theorize about these games, since now the SH team have made theory into fact. They just took the fun out of it, but I'll just be stubborn and claim that they're WRONG, and that I'm right. Yeah, that's what I'll do. Yeah...
In all respects, I can be a harsh purist when it comes to the interpretations of the Silent Hill series, but I've also realized that a big part of the appeal of the games is the interpretations that people can come up with. I enjoy debates and discussions about what a certain action (or inaction) signifies to other people. However, many times the information can get distorted (such as Eccles' case of Alessa and Mary.) In cases like this, it is good to have a reference to help clarify discussions or arguments. However, I don't think that the "Lost Memories" is the book to do so.

Personally, I find the "Lost Memories" to very vague, highly subjective (depending on how you interpret the language), and at times, contradictive. The book doesn't even attempt to explain what the endings of Silent Hill 3 mean, excluding the Revenge ("UFO") Ending. Even if a purist, such as myself, tried to take the text in the "Lost Memories" as literal and definitive, I would be quickly drawn into a corner because so much detail is left unexplained. In the end, it is up to the player to decide what is true meaning of the game. Like life, there are no definite answers.

Well, I guess all that is left to discuss is...

SH Rumor Control:

As mentioned before, rumors have been flying around about the next title in the Silent Hill Series: SH5. The current working title for this game will be "Shadows of the Past."

The game, like SH2, will not be directly linked to the main storyline created in SH1 & SH3. Instead, it will focus more on the background of the town. The game will also utilize a series of flashbacks where the player will travel to other places from your memory. (Sounds interesting.)

As far as storyline goes, the protagonist is apparently a mental patient kept in a mental institution. The doctors are trying to get to the center of the protagonist's trama and delusions, which occurred in Silent Hill. Through their sessions, the patient (i.e. the player) will travel back to their memories and try to discover the source of your mental illness. (Sounds very interesting.)

According to a source at Konami, this will be the last game released for the current generations of consoles. So, that means that the likely release of the game will be sometime in 2006. That means you better savor SH4 while you can.

StarZander

08-06-2004, 03:54 PM

Good to see you posting again ifirit. Hope to see you on msn sometime soon aswell, if possible. Got lots and lots to tell ya. See ya around.

ArgonX

08-06-2004, 09:31 PM

I hate being gone for weeks on end.

Anywho, Ifirit I was waiting for you to reply to my post, I just knew you'd have some interesting info.

I have one question though, how does the supposed "tattoo" of the Seal of Metatron upon Valtiel explained. It was indeed Samael that Claudia was trying to revive and that Valtiel was looking over, but it wouldn't make sense for Valtiel to do that if he was an agent of Metatron.

That's why I came to the conclusion that he was looking over Heather instead of Samael and drew the distinction between Pyramid Head and Valtiel.

~AX~

ifirit

08-07-2004, 09:09 PM

I have one question though, how does the supposed "tattoo" of the Seal of Metatron upon Valtiel explained. It was indeed Samael that Claudia was trying to revive and that Valtiel was looking over, but it wouldn't make sense for Valtiel to do that if he was an agent of Metatron.

That's why I came to the conclusion that he was looking over Heather instead of Samael and drew the distinction between Pyramid Head and Valtiel.

I can explain what the "Lost Memories" said about Vatiel and the plot to Silent Hill, but it will take some time to give a clear explanation. So, go ahead and grab a snack, or a drink, before we begin.

**Silent Hill 1 & 3 Spoilers**

As you know, Dahlia used Harry to seek out Alessa. She lead him on by giving him clues (though cryptic in nature) to the places where he should seek her out. In guiding Harry along, Dahlia told a lie to Harry in order to keep him on his toes (according to the "Lost Memories"). She explained that the "demon," "the demon taking that child's form," was sealing the town with the mark of Samael. As we learned in Silent Hill 3, the mark was not the "Mark of Samael," but the Mark (or Seal) of Metatron. The apparent reasoning for Dahlia to tell the lie was to convince Harry that he was searching for Alessa in order to save her, where in actuality, he was just helping lead Dahlia to Alessa's hinding spots (plural).

Dahlia's goal was to obtain the power that she had spent the last fourteen years trying to attain. Alessa's other half had reappeared in Silent Hill and she wanted to collect on her investment. However, Cheryl (Alessa's other half) had grown smart and was able to escape Dahlia's grasp. So, she employed Harry, unwittingly, to find the other half for her.

Now, in order to understand why Cheryl/Alessa was using the Seal of Metatron (more specifically, the Virun VII Crest) to "seal the town," you have to understand a little bit about the cult of Silent Hill. The names "Hope House Cult," 4S (Silent Hill Smile Support Society), or even "the Order" are all misinterpretted names for the cult of Silent Hill. (In SH4, you'll see why the name "Hope House Cult" is wrong.) Anyway, as we learned in SH3, Alessa grew up within this group, learning about the religion. In this time, I'm sure she was taught all sorts of magic and protection spells that she could use. In addition to this, we know that Metatron is a beign being among the cult's saints and angels. I assume that one of these spells allowed you to invoke "Metatron's protection." In SH1, Alessa tried to employ this protection. However, since we never get to see how the spell works or what is the resulting effect (thanks to Harry, and then Claudia), we don't know what is the purpose of the Seal of Metatron.

Back to Dahlia's lie. Dahlia didn't want Harry to think that he was working for a side of evil and exploitation, so she changed the name of Metatron (a beign being) to Samael (a being representing evil among normal people, more commonly used to represent Satan). This manipulation is mentioned in the book: "Syncretic Religions." Dahlia was a believer of the town's religion, but used critics' justifications to reverse the roles of good and evil. Harry didn't know any better, so he played along, unwittingly, with the story. All he cared about was getting Cheryl back.

What is important to note about the above is that the manipulation of Harry is not an internal struggle of religious politics like in SH3, but Dahlia's way of taking an unsuspecting person and using their misguided/undeveloped beliefs for her own purposes. In other words, she wanted Harry to believe that everything Alessa was doing to protect Cheryl, herself and, in turn, Harry was evil. This would drive Harry to continue his search.

Now back to the discussion of Metatron. In Silent Hill 3, the being Vatiel, a servant to Metatron (as noted in the "Lost Memories"), is called upon to "escort" Heather until the time when God can be born. (Hence the name Vatiel, as in valet.) Obivously, since Vatiel is a servant of Metatron, he will bare the same markings and symbols associated with Metatron himself, such as the Seal of Metatron. Like the seal itself, Vatiel's true purpose is a mystery. However, what we do know is that Vatiel is a beign creature in the eyes of the cult. Therefore, how you view the cult will determine whether or not you believe Vatiel, and as a result Metatron, is good or evil.

One last thing to note, God is neither Metatron, nor Samael. It is a being much higher than that of archangels. So, everyone who believes that Dahlia or Claudia was trying to bring Samael into existance in this world is very wrong. Also, as the "Origins" pointed out, God already created paradise, but did not set out the road to it. That is why Claudia wants to birth God, so that that road can be opened.

Good to see you posting again ifirit. Hope to see you on msn sometime soon aswell, if possible. Got lots and lots to tell ya. See ya around.

Thanks, but PM right now. I'm using the school computers, since I still don't have internet access at home yet.

Also, to DDE, the name of the painting of the Red Pyramid Thing is called, "Misty Days, the Remains of the Judgement."

I-n-j-i-n

08-08-2004, 12:04 AM

One last thing to note, God is neither Metatron, nor Samael. It is a being much higher than that of archangels.

Well, that's probably because in some mythologies and stories about Metatron, he's one of the highest ranking archangels.

So that's about right. I think Metatron is just a being pulled in by the void of evil in Silent Hill when Dahlia tried using Metatron's power somehow, but Metatron, being a powerful being that he is, constantly helped Harry, James and other inhabitants of Silent Hill.

ArgonX

08-08-2004, 04:52 AM

That's all good info Ifirit, thanks.

I appologize for the next statements, they aren't very organized.

I'm not anywhere an authority on the matter, but I believe that Metatron is the Voice of God, the highest ranking Archangel, correct?

If indeed the God that was being bore by Heather was the God that Metatron represents, it would make sense for Valtiel to protect it and Heather.

It would also make sense if Red Pyramid Thing is an invokation of the evil form of Valtiel as well because then Metatron would have sway over it - in the form of it's sirens which ward off the monster.

But saying those things, if you *spoilers* destroy "God" in the end of SH3 wouldn't you be betraying Valtiel and Metatron?

I'm now leaning towards a complete lack of Samael's presence in SH at all, but rather Metatron and "God". Instead of having a lesser of two evils situation (Metatron being the lesser), it seems that Metatron is just plain evil.

One other scrap of information - the save points in SH3 (And SH2, I believe. It's been a while since I played it). I found this:

1. It represents the deity known as "The Halo of the Sun". In heraldry, symbolizes a religious group.
2. The two outer circles are charity and resurrection; the three inner circles are present, past, and future.
3. Usually drawn in red. Occasionally drawn in black or other colors, but blue reverses the meaning into a curse on God and is therefore forbidden.

If anything, I just thought it an interesting subject.

~AX~

Eccles

08-08-2004, 11:01 AM

As for Samael...

"Samael = (Unk) it is thought this angel of death was the demon who tempted Eve. Also the prince of Air. This is merely another name for Satan"
(Source: A dictionary of demons...I forgot the author, sorry)

As for Dahlia...
I dont think it's right to say she lied to Harry by saying the seal of metatron was the mark of Samael...considering something she says (in the Good+ ending, methinks):
"I had no idea the talisman of metatron was being used"

Also, in SH3, I've been failing to find some things...
Firstly, where are these dolls I've heard so much about? The only grotesque dolls I can find are the two in the hilltop centre when the place goes to hell...

Secondly, where am I supposed to flamethrower to get the SH1 pictures to appear? It's no good just having them on Heathers top...

ifirit

08-09-2004, 09:09 PM

I think there is a little misunderstanding about what I posted above. This is not my interpretation of the events in the first game, nor my absolute concrete theory; this is merely what the "Lost Memories" claims happens (except that I had to tie a few ends together, since that is not done for you in the translations or explanations).

The "Lost Memories" says that Dahlia lied. The "Lost Memories" says that Metatron is an archangel and a lower being to God. The "Lost Memories" says that the cult sees Metatron as a beign and divine being.

What you need to understand is that how you veiw the events in the games depends on the perspective you assume. If you see things from a cult members view like Claudia's and Dahlia's perspective, you might believe that Metatron is representative of the side of good (even though it was Alessa you tried to call upon Metatron). If you assume the more outside role of a non-believer, like Douglas or Cybil, then you might see the cult and its heavenly abode as devils and demons. Still, this is only in terms of what you assume might happen if God is born. Dahlia and Claudia envisioned a paradise made on earth (please note that Dahlia's vision comes from her Nowhere speech, not her conversation with Harry on the boat), while Cybil and Douglas saw a terrible realm of hellish nightmare. However, in terms of what we see on the screen, the alternate worlds, which are harsh, dark and scary, you would hardly call it paradise. But then again, Claudia explains it as merely the point of view. Vincent saw a world gone wrong, while Claudia sees a paradise in construction. It's all how you see things. Which is why you have to assume first whether the cult's beliefs are good or evil before you continue to discuss the ideas surrounding Metatron or even Vatiel, because that will shape your point of view.

Again, THIS IS NOT MY EXPLANATION, but only what the "Lost Memories" wants you to see. And on that note, I should give you a link to the in-progress, fan translations of the Lost Memories (http://silenthillchronicle.cjb.net/). The translations are nearly completed (only 6 sections left), but still enough to draw your own conclusions about the story of Silent Hill.

Also, in SH3, I've been failing to find some things...
Firstly, where are these dolls I've heard so much about?
I assume you mean Scarlett and her friend, right? Well, these dolls are located in Alessa's childhood room in Nowhere (both SH1 and SH3). Look on the floor near the foot of the bed.

Secondly, where am I supposed to flamethrower to get the SH1 pictures to appear?
On the third floor of the Alternate Brookhaven Hospital, there is a smokey room that Heather comments on not being able to see through. Go to the far left of the glass, near the double doors, and stand as closely as you can to the glass. Use the flamethrower and the camera angles to see the wall on the left, behind the glass. That is where you will find the "Light Illuminating the Darkness" painting.

Silent Hill 4 Update:
In a previous post, I said that Konami had officially denied having a bundle (game and soundtrack) for the North American and European releases.

Well, it seems that Konami has changed their minds. For the US release of the game, Konami will now include a special edition SH4 soundtrack with the game. This special version of the soundtrack will include 20 tracks, 13 of which are not found on the Limited Edition Soundtrack released in Japan and 6 remixes of previously released material. No official word has been released for the PAL version yet.

Now, considering this, I wonder if I will recieve the Limited Edition soundtrack of SH4: The Room (released in Japan) from EBGames or if I will recieve the Special Edition soundtrack (released for the US) which will come with the game. Only time will tell.

EDIT: For those you you collecting websites and information about actual locations of places in Silent Hill, I have one more to add. Toluca Lake (http://www.tolucalakechamber.com/), which is located in the heart of Los Angeles, is home to a very quiet community with a small tourist resort for visitors. Enjoy!

EDIT 2: I had suggested something like this (http://quizilla.com/users/tyles/quizzes/Which%20Silent%20Hill%20Character%20are%20You%3F/) to DDE and SZ when we were considering building a Silent Hill website. Well, for those you who want to see which SH character you are most like, it's a fun little quiz. My results are posted below. (w00t!)

http://images.quizilla.com/T/tyles/1086866218_ltsheather.jpg