Silent Hill Discussion

[Night10194]

I was just wondering if any of the others of the OCR community have played this fascinating game. The plot, while a BIT arcane, hasn't been as hard to understand as I'd thought it would be, the gameplay has been much more puzzle and exploration oriented than combative, and the atmosphere, imagery, and setting are strokes of genius that I as a horror writer am jealous as hell of.

I just wanted to know opinions on it etc by my fellows here at OCR, and sought to perhaps start a minor discussion of it. I know it's an old game, but I had a heck of a hunt to find it and am only now playing it. :p

[Torgo]

Unless it has the phrase "Jill sandwich", I do not play survival horror games.

Hitting the mannequin-looking things with a huge stick was cool, though.

[Eccles]

I dominate silent hill 1.

Ive gotten pretty much EVERY move/book/whatever reference in the game, know the plot inside out and have some crackpot theories of my own.

How can I help?

[Night10194]

Oh, I need no help with the plot. Though any tips on hitting things with my nifty pipe until they stop moving would be appreciated... :p

[Eccles]

Yes, with regards to the pipe....dont use it.
Youre better off using your handgun/shotgun until you get a decent melee weapon IE-The Katana (in the beta version of silent hill so you dont fly about the room whenever you swing it) or the Sledgehammer (in alchemilla's basement).
I advise against using the secret melee weapons (Chainsaw and Jackhammer) because they have zero range and for what they do you may as well look evilly as your opponent)

The pipe really isnt the best thing, even in the school when you have those bulky bear things to deal with (or the slippy schoolkids...depends which version youre playing. Stupid fucking PAL edition ¬_¬)

[Warmech]

Eh, the pipe was actually a pretty good melee weapon, for me at least. That's what I used most often when I wasn't going up against a boss.
But I could also wield Pyramid Head's knife pretty well too, so I guess I'm just good with melee weapons.

[Night10194]

The key to pipe-smashing appears to be timing. And I can't help but use it...I like blunt trauma weapons and I'm also somewhat of an ammo maniac, as in I conserve it like crazy. After a bit of practice, I've figured out the timing on base-ball batting Dogs and those bird demons, even...

The kitchen knife is utterly useless, no?

Anyhow, anyone else wonder what the hell that red liquid you find in Alchemia is? And why it does what it does (trying to avoid spoilers...)?

[Warmech]

Kitchen knife.....yes.

8-foot killer knife.....no.

[Doulifée]

i use the pipe too. very usefull. want a golden pipe for christmas? just ask the fairy :lol: . i'am just like you, storing ammo and using the melee weapon as often as possible. it's just "timing" to hit thing . i like playing in the dark in my room so i don't need this lamp to wonder around the city.

i like the plot very fascinating. i read recently the silent hill plot (for the 3 games) at game faqs. impressive.

a map, a pipe and a radio the 3 items to begin your travel.....

[Eccles]

Eh, the pipe was actually a pretty good melee weapon, for me at least. That's what I used most often when I wasn't going up against a boss.
But I could also wield Pyramid Head's knife pretty well too, so I guess I'm just good with melee weapons.
Well Im talking about silent hill 1...in which the melee weapons were pretty crap, to be honest.
Save for the sledgehammer, I didnt use them...I stuck to mainly the shotgun and the rifle (Cause Im a cheat and had bullet adjust 6 on :P)

[ifirit]

Oh, I need no help with the plot. Though any tips on hitting things with my nifty pipe until they stop moving would be appreciated... :p

What do you think the plot is for SH1? A lot of people have varying ideas on the plot and ending analysis.

Personally, I think there are some conflicting ideas between the first and third game. At least, from what I thought the plots were. But this contridiction leaves room for more SH sequels.

P.S. By the way, have you tried any of the Silent Hill Forums. I like Central Silent Hill. Very well organized.

[Eccles]

How could I forget that I'm making my own with some friends (its going towards their graphics and media projects, so it needs to be as heart-attack-inducing as possible.

And I got a bunch of theories about SH1, yeah...I just specialise in getting all the outside references and such

[ifirit]

How could I forget that I'm making my own with some friends (its going towards their graphics and media projects, so it needs to be as heart-attack-inducing as possible.

How's that going anyway? It's been almost a year since you started it. Ctomm still helping with the soundtrack? Any updates?

[Eccles]

How could I forget that I'm making my own with some friends (its going towards their graphics and media projects, so it needs to be as heart-attack-inducing as possible.

How's that going anyway? It's been almost a year since you started it. Ctomm still helping with the soundtrack? Any updates?
Zero updates so far...
We'll also need voice actors...children, older women and a couple older guys.

Its slowing really slow...which sucks ass.

[ifirit]

We'll also need voice actors...children, older women and a couple older guys.

Its slowing really slow...which sucks ass.

So I take it that you've finished the script. Yes? No? I'd love to read it.

[Eccles]

We'll also need voice actors...children, older women and a couple older guys.

Its slowing really slow...which sucks ass.

So I take it that you've finished the script. Yes? No? I'd love to read it.
Not as yet...Ill have it soon.

[StarZander]

I love the silent hill games... and i have analyzed the connections between SH1 and 3, but i couldn't find any real contradictions... not that i recall anyways. what did you have in mind?

oh btw... i've only beaten SH2 once, when i rented it, but i'm getting the directors cut edition for christmas (finally) so i'll be able to analyze that aswell. because i have no idea how all the "freakyness" appeared in Silent Hill in that game. it was pretty clear in the other games, with Alessa and that religion and all... but in SH2... i'm perplexed.

[Eccles]

Badump.
Its request time.

Okay...I'll need all the videos from silent hill one and two (and...maybe three...if I can stand to look at them *shudder*). I need ALL of them...the opening, when harry wakes up in the diner, all the endings, EVERYTHING...
I'll also need some clips of in-game play...if anyone can help me with that then I'll be glad to help out.

Its for my AMV...which actually WILL do something unlike this game, which seems to have ground to a friggin halt

(If youre curious, the track is Papa Roach's 'Last Resort'. Ive gotten most of it planned out...now all I need to do is synch it together.)

[The Tragic Prince]

Anyhow, anyone else wonder what the hell that red liquid you find in Alchemia is? And why it does what it does (trying to avoid spoilers...)?

You'll neeed it to save Cybil. That's all I'll tell you.

I played throught the first Silent Hill a couple times and I've gotten all the endings except for the alien ending. Am I the only person who always uses a gun? Anyway I have the second game for PC, but I haven't played it that much yet. I'm stuck on one of the puzzles.

[Eccles]

I found the glitched cut-scene.

ohhh, tis fun.

I also found a way to glitch harry's head off.

[ifirit]

Badump.
Its request time.

Okay...I'll need all the videos from silent hill one and two (and...maybe three...if I can stand to look at them *shudder*). I need ALL of them...the opening, when harry wakes up in the diner, all the endings, EVERYTHING...
I'll also need some clips of in-game play...if anyone can help me with that then I'll be glad to help out.

Lucky for you, I found a site recently with every SH movie ever, including trailers and making of films. How ironic that I found it while visiting a Silent Hill forum. :roll:

Touch me and you die! (http://www.felixmcli.org/sh-movies.html)

P.S. If you'd like just the audio files of every movie sequence, you can visit Dustfungus' site (http://shm.dustfungo.com) (Link Updated). Best audio quality yet. Please note that the SH3 files have not yet been loaded and the site is using the break to update everything, so some links will not work all the time. Just keep checking to find what you need.

EDIT: (9-10-2004)
Dustfungus' website on the Silent Hill Domain has gone down permanently due to webmaster difficulties. The files are no longer available for download, anywhere as his personal site has gone down as well (9-7-2004).

EDIT 2: (9-28-2005)
Dustfungus has brought Silent Hill Media back online. His new site has been linked to this post. Check it out for lots of new and old material.

[Eccles]

ifrit...bear my children please.

-edit-
GADAMMET...
Not saving.
If anyone can grab these suckers for me and send them over tomorrow or something (Im goin to bed soon) that'd me much appreciated

[ifirit]

Sorry, but since the incident I've become barren. That man will pay dearly for what he did to me and my daughter. But tracking him down is not as easy as it seems.

Anyway, speaking of children, have you seen the SH2 chibi by KnickKnack? It's amusing, but I found it very humorous.

EDIT: Yeah, the connection speed is slow, but it works most of the time. Still, I have a few of the files already and I'll try to get some more if time allows.

[Eccles]

Connection speed is not only slow, its non-existant for me.

(Oh yeah...I also need some good video editing software. Movie Maker just doesnt cut it)

[StarZander]

Connection speed is not only slow, its non-existant for me.

(Oh yeah...I also need some good video editing software. Movie Maker just doesnt cut it)

I got Adobe Premiere yesterday actually (warez iso) and it's great for video editing! I could give it to youe. PM me about it.

Btw, I have all the Silent Hill games, and I know I can rip all the movies from SH1 since it's only PSX, but I can try to rip them from SH2 and 3 aswell... If you'd like. =) But... We're there any FMV's in SH3? The graphics we're too good for that.

[Eccles]

mmmm.
Getting the videos still...this sites download speed sucks ass.

[Straziante]

Hmm It seems more people are interested in SH1 and SH3. I guess there's no love for SH2, which is my favorite of the 3.

[Night10194]

I'd be very interested in it, if I had a PS2 to play it. :p

[Night10194]

Oh, and on the questions on the plot...Silent Hill 1: What the hell is it about?

Well...I have my own crazed theory, which may only exist because of what I myself am writing...

But I don't think a single damned whit of it was real. The conflict with Alyessa and all, yes, that's probably there (If only due to the existance of SH3)...but what happens to Harry isn't. I know that sounds odd, but...Harry is a 32 year old man who's never fired a gun before in his life, never had to fight for his life before. Yet he presses on into this nightmarish hell, fighting for his life and sanity the whole way, to save his beloved daughter. Hurrah for him, I say, but I don't buy that he could possibly succeed. The odds are too far gone against him. However...if you accept the theory that this fight is going on outside of normal reality, that it's taking place in some crazed nightmare of a dream, than his success becomes infinitely more feasible.

Yes, there are chinks in this idea. One of the main ones is actually the existance of Cybil. But that's easily explained: Remember the empty bike in the beginning? There WAS a blood-stain next to it. Cybil took a wrong turn and had a nasty fall. That's all. But Harry remembered seeing her, and thought it plausible that she'd be in the town, too. However, as he saw in the beginning of his nightmare, he's going to need weapons etc to survive. Lo! Here comes Cybil in the cafe, handing him a pistol and telling him how to use it! Convienant, no? After all, wasn't that HER gun? But, now armed, Harry is free to make his attempt to rescue his daughter from the nightmare he's suffering.

I know, crazy theory. I'll play a bit more and see if I can come up with something more solid. Must earn my English Nerd status somehow, and lord knows there's enough in this plot to do it with. :p

[Eccles]

Harry is a 32 year old man who's never fired a gun before in his life, never had to fight for his life before. Yet he presses on into this nightmarish hell, fighting for his life and sanity the whole way, to save his beloved daughter.
Which is why I came up with the theory that the first time you play silent hill isnt the first time Harry goes through silent hill.
I also suggested this because of the eerie calm that harry has throughout (and all the other characters in General...only Thesally Lerner did a good job of making lisa sound actually scared)
I mean, think about it...giant bird thing kicks all the windows of your building in then attacks you and youre forced to gun it down and all you do is stand there and go "...this isnt a dream!"

There is an old theory..."Hell is repetition" (made popular in the movie 'Lost highway'. If you enjoy being messed with psychologically, this is the one for you).
So following the hell-purgatory-heaven idea (silent hill 1 is about punishment, silent hill 2 is about forgiveness, silent hill 3 is about pleasure) its natural to assume that Harry is in Hell (in fact, several places in the school say so. "Notice:Hell is coming" "Notice: YOURE IN HELL") and that he's doomed to repeat the same thing over and over, with no real memory of it.
You could also theorise that this is what the deal with Next Fear is. Harry thinks he's out of hell...but no, he wakes up and he's right back in the middle of it.


On an entirely unrelated note...what in the holy hell is the final boss of SH2 about?
I figured it might be representative of a couple of things...the pyramid heads torture rack, a hospital bed and a coffin...but that still doesnt really explain why its flying upside down, hurling vortexs of bats everywhere...its just crazy)

[The Tragic Prince]

I'd be very interested in it, if I had a PS2 to play it. :p That shouldn't be a problem if you have a good PC. Finding it is going to be your problem. I found my copy used in EB Games for $15(I wasn't really looking for it, though), but that was the only time I've seen it.

[StarZander]

On an entirely unrelated note...what in the holy hell is the final boss of SH2 about?
I figured it might be representative of a couple of things...the pyramid heads torture rack, a hospital bed and a coffin...but that still doesnt really explain why its flying upside down, hurling vortexs of bats everywhere...its just crazy)

Well, I've only faced it once... But... I don't think that i's attacks are supposed to have a purpose. Maybe that's just his worst thought's about what could happen to... uh... spoiler. Won't say who. But you know.

[Eccles]

I'll stick with the coffin idea...

[Night10194]

There's PC Silent Hill! Hurrah! Tis madness and joy and more macabre madness and horror! I shall try to find it as soon as I can. I'm really looking forward to 2 and 3.

Oh, and on the note of the idea that it isn't the first time Harry has been in Silent Hill...didn't he go there with his daughter for vacations and things before? Perhaps...perhaps he doesn't REALLY remember, but he already has seen similar hell and horror the previous times he visited? And in the back of his subconscious, he knows he's seen it all before?

And I don't buy the idea of the Next Fear games having anything to do with Harry's experiences, honestly. I understand the logic, but it just rubs me the wrong way to think the poor fellow has no way out. Ever.

And as to the White Claudia angle, it just cannot be discounted...especially considering Lisa's experiences with it and the descriptions of things like the faucets dripping pus and blood. However...the fact that he encounters Kauffman and Lisa (Whom he didn't know) bespeaks that he isn't just hopped up on White Claudia. After all, where else would they come from?

But the one thing that I can't get over...he died in that dark alleyway. How the hell did he suddenly wake up in the cafe, fine? Hmmm...

[NightWish]

Silent Hill hmm? Well, I'm too scared to play those kinds of games (Except Resident Evil 2 and Eternal Darkness.. that was almost like an action/shooter game. still freaky at times though)


I can't say that I like the gameplay elements in Silent Hill though.. like most survival horror games, the gameplay itself usually isn't the selling point..

But the series IS spooky though.. lots of witches and summoning demons and such.

[Doulifée]

On an entirely unrelated note...what in the holy hell is the final boss of SH2 about?
I figured it might be representative of a couple of things...the pyramid heads torture rack, a hospital bed and a coffin...but that still doesnt really explain why its flying upside down, hurling vortexs of bats everywhere...its just crazy)

This scene is symbolic of his wife Mary, and the lifeless dead body (Mary, as
her husband seemed to view her) that lay in bed when she was ill. A butterfly
is a creature of beauty and freedom, much like how James viewed his wife, yet
the illness has destroyed these qualities (at least superficially, but
gradually with time depression destroys a person's inner beauty. Not the soul,
the essence of the person though). Thus, the butterfly depicts the death of a
beautiful creature. One as well, which shouldn't remain caged but should be
free to fly as it wished (the empty cages).
------------I found this on a plot faqs somewhere . :roll:

[Eccles]

There's PC Silent Hill! Hurrah! Tis madness and joy and more macabre madness and horror! I shall try to find it as soon as I can. I'm really looking forward to 2 and 3.
SH3 is pretty disappointing...but the UFO ending to that game is the best cut-scene in recorded history.
"That does it...Im going to silent hill...and IM GONNA BUST SOME HEADS!"
"Now, lets all sing the silent hill song! #Silent hiiiiill, no utaaaaa, minna de utaouuuuuu!#"
(I have GOT to find the sheet music to that and play it with claire...its too ballbreakingly hilarious to pass up)

Oh, and on the note of the idea that it isn't the first time Harry has been in Silent Hill...didn't he go there with his daughter for vacations and things before? Perhaps...perhaps he doesn't REALLY remember, but he already has seen similar hell and horror the previous times he visited? And in the back of his subconscious, he knows he's seen it all before?
Now...when you think about it, that makes much more sense.

And as to the White Claudia angle, it just cannot be discounted...especially considering Lisa's experiences with it and the descriptions of things like the faucets dripping pus and blood. However...the fact that he encounters Kauffman and Lisa (Whom he didn't know) bespeaks that he isn't just hopped up on White Claudia. After all, where else would they come from?
Alessa.
You've got the wrong end of the stick, here...everything in silent hill is Alessas doing.
The floors all over alternative silent hill are metal grating...just like in alessas room. Everything is burned...just like Alessas home.
Even the people who appear in silent hill are related to alessa in some way.
Dhalia and Kauffman are responsible for her being burned. You see them in the next to last cut-scene when you witness Dhalia, Kauffman and three doctors standing round Alessas bed.
Those three doctors...there's two theories as to what happened to them.
1) Theyre the three doctors you fight when you go round Alchemilla (there are only three doctors, but a myriad of nurses)

2) Theyre the corpses hanging on the walls (in the teaser, the school toilet and the boat hallway). There's another theory as to these little guys, but Ill come to that after.

I get the feeling that Lisa was dead to begin with. She only appears in the alternative silent hill (as i said, everything Alessa knows is in the alternative silent hill) and she doesnt leave the hospital. She never says why, but I get the feeling that its because Alessa doesnt know about Lisa other than in the one room of the hospital...think about it. Throughout the game, Lisa NEVER leaves the consulting room because thats how Alessa knew her...the kind nurse who looked after her in that room. The only time Lisa DOES leave the room is when she turns up in nowhere...and you can see how fragile Alessas creation is because you kill her, just by pushing her away (She doesnt bleed to death for no reason...watch the scene again. Harry pushes lisa away and bashes her head against the wall. This causes massive bleeding from a gaping head wound. Lisa doesnt become a Zombie nurse, she doesnt have the brain leech that all the others do, she just becomes doused in blood)

This also explains why Lisa kills Kauffman and not Harry in the ending sequence.
Even though Harry killed Lisa, she's still being controlled by Alessa...who wants everyone who tried to hurt her to end up dead.
Thats why she burns Dhalia to death (kind of an eye-for-an-eye dealie), Thats why she has Lisa kill Kauffman, Thats why she has Harry kill himself (in the bad endings, Harry makes no effort to escape and just sits there, dying in the fire-rain). (to a lesser extent, it could explain why she made the children in the school into bug-demons...she was jealous of them, so she made it so you can kill them...a theory my friend suggested is that in the alternative silent hill, everything is the same as normal, its just you cant see it. Like the fire-stairs in SH2)

The other theory I came up with is concerned with the corpse in the school.
Think about it...throughout the game, youre given clues as to what to do. The paper telling you to go to the school, the paper telling you to check the doghouse, the location of the three Keys (a nice little wizard of Oz reference, there).
And when you get into the school, these notes arent written in pen, theyre written in blood...same deal with the bloody keys on the piano.
You find a whole pile of empty health drink containers in the passageway to the alternative school, then, when you find the corpse in the toilet, you get one last clue (LEONARD RHYMES, THE MONSTER LURKS) then the clues stop dead.
I think that that corpse was one of the doctors who was in charge of monitoring alessa in the hospital who decided he'd had enough of it, took his gun and went on the run...like harry.
Except Alessa got him and murdered him.
Then stuck drips in him as an idea as to how futile they are to a burned corpse (Look at it in 1st person view. The body in the toilet has two IV-Drips attached to its waist)

I could say the same about the other two corpses that hang like that, but there are ZERO clues to point to why they are there...simply as gross-out tactics I suppose.

As for the SH1 glitches...if you find the apparition near to the merry-go-round and splash it with the red-liquid then you get a fucked up cut-scene (it counts as you having saved Cybil and doesnt alter your game...in some cases, it can actually benefit you...resetting your game timer to 0 (which is how I managed to complete the game in 2 hours) and also resets your save-total (which is how I managed to complete the game with 1 save ;))

The other glitch...if you attack Cybil with the Katana as your chief weapon (IE-you use the Katana more than any other weapon you have) and kill her (with or without the sword...as I said, so long as you had it equipped for most of that fight) then you will wake up in nowhere without a head.
(This only works if you have the alpha version of the game...where you slide forward whenever you swing the sword...they took this out of the beta version)

phew...

Any questions?

[StanTuna, Vaporwaremonger]

Alright.... I've never played 1 or 3, but 2 got me pretty confused in a couple of places.

Anyways, how the hell does Laura fit in? I mean, Eddie and Suicide Girl are their cause they killed people, James is there cause he killed his wife... Maria, I'm assuming, is supposed to be helping James atone (Sorry if it's obvious to you people, but remember I've never played the first) and Laura is just... there to annoy you. And know about Mary. Is she really significant, or does she just have a cool theme song?

[Eccles]

...dang. And after I make that big ol' nerdy post there, you go stump me :P

But as I understand, yes Laura is just there to annoy you...and to torment the people in the game.
Look at how she drives Eddie mad...and how she irritates James. She makes Maria and James fight...I think she's just there to turn the characters against one another since there is power in numbers.

[Night10194]

The cynic in me says that Harry's calm is just a bad voice actor. I like my other theory better, though. :p

Alessa...yes, that's a theory, but...I just don't buy it, personally. Were it Alessa in charge, Harry would be a dead man by now. Alessa has no attachment to Harry, Cheryl does. Cheryl doesn't want her father dead, she just wants him to not find her and lead those evil cult folks to her...

[Eccles]

The cynic in me says that Harry's calm is just a bad voice actor. I like my other theory better, though. :p
Yeah...the voice acting was pretty attrocious.
Like I said before, only Lisa actually sounded scared. Everyone else was like "...meh, all hell has been let loose. Whens lunch?"

Were it Alessa in charge, Harry would be a dead man by now. Alessa has no attachment to Harry, Cheryl does. Cheryl doesn't want her father dead, she just wants him to not find her and lead those evil cult folks to her...
Uhm...Alessa and Cheryl are the same person.
The cult burned Alessa as a child to drive out her soul (its believed that if a body is put through enough pain then the soul will just up and leave, leaving behind a vegetable of a human), Alessas soul left her body but manifested itself into Chery (because she knew that harry and his wife would take care of her, and also that Harry visits silent hill a lot, so she can claim the soul back in the future)

Cheryl ceases to exist pretty much as soon as you see the first corpse chained to the fence in the teaser level.
She vanishes and her soul goes back into her original body...Alessa.
Thats why you find so much help in the game.

Alessa doesnt want Harry to go through the alternative silent hill but she has no choice, since she's blanket bombing the town (so to speak) so that she gets EVERYONE involved in the cult.

Thats why she supplies him with bullets, guns and health drinks etc.

You are told a couple of times in the game that Cheryl and Alessa are the same person. Its hinted at in the school when you see scrawled on one of the walls "m E a R e Y o U r": "Me are you are" Say that over and over ;)
You are also told by Dhalia that Cheryl and alessa are the same person

As for all that about the soul leaving the body, I pieced that together with what I know from superstitions and folklore and such. Silent hill did a pretty good job of sticking to folklore, except when they said Flauros was a medallion designed to guide the way...Flauros is a bizarre god who has the head of a cat, body of a human...I cant remember what he was supposed to be the God OF though...

[Warmech]

Well, also about Laura, besides her being hella annoying, was that Mary wanted to adopt her. I guess that is the only connection there. Eddie and Angela were in SH for their past crimes, and Laura was there because of her future could-have-been involvement with James and Mary.

[Johnny Carwash]

[quote=Night10194]...but that still doesnt really explain why its flying upside down, hurling vortexs of bats everywhere...its just crazy)

Not bats,butterflies.
The same as in the apartment building.

[Johnny Carwash]

My theory about the white claudia is that the plant was used to commune with the gods.

The hallucinations induced by it may allow the "gods" of silent hill to influence your mind.

[Firedrake]

You guys hear? Silent Hill 4: The Room is rumoured to be in production. Apparently, it's based around Silent Hill 2 (my favourite in the series so far, I've just recently got Silent Hill, which I have yet to complete).
James Sunderland is back (Which I hope means that Pyramid Head is too...) and rumour has it that the stroy revolves around the hotel room where James' finds the tape in Silent Hill 2.

The source of the rumour are PSM2 and PlayStation 2 Official Magazine UK.

[Eccles]

...but that still doesnt really explain why its flying upside down, hurling vortexs of bats everywhere...its just crazy)
Not bats,butterflies.
The same as in the apartment building.
Moths.
Since they gather around lights.

You guys hear? Silent Hill 4: The Room is rumoured to be in production. Apparently, it's based around Silent Hill 2 (my favourite in the series so far, I've just recently got Silent Hill, which I have yet to complete).
James Sunderland is back (Which I hope means that Pyramid Head is too...) and rumour has it that the stroy revolves around the hotel room where James' finds the tape in Silent Hill 2.

The source of the rumour are PSM2 and PlayStation 2 Official Magazine UK.
...I hate James so much.
He's such a whiney bitch...

[Shoeless joe]

Yes, with regards to the pipe....dont use it.
Youre better off using your handgun/shotgun until you get a decent melee weapon IE-The Katana (in the beta version of silent hill so you dont fly about the room whenever you swing it) or the Sledgehammer (in alchemilla's basement).
I advise against using the secret melee weapons (Chainsaw and Jackhammer) because they have zero range and for what they do you may as well look evilly as your opponent)


I guess you never took time to use the chainsaw or jackhammer. For using the 'saw, you don't swing it but rather use should hold R2 and charge the enemy, and step back when they attempt an attack. As for the jackhammer, it's used to keep foes at an arm's length to attack or else you're fucked. Also, it knocked the enemy back alittle so use don't have to keep running back!

As for the reoccuring theory that Harry is trapped in Silent Hill, well, it can't make sense. After all with 2 sequels out there, it's impossible for it to occur, since he would of ran into James or Heather. Also, In SH2 the marks of Samael have already been put in place (you can tell since there's monsters still there) and SH3 takes place 17 years after SH1 and involves characters directly related to SH1. I won't say who to advoid spoilers.

[Israfel]

I'm a huge fan of the Silent Hill games- replayed them several time, read all the plot guides, had loooong debates about the plot etc etc.

But let me say this- SH 1 and 3 have really interesting, complex plots- but SH2 is where it's at.

Silent Hill 2 has the most mature and complex plot in a videogame. Period. I'm not one of those videogames=art kinda guys, but SH2 has a plot which transcends videogames and is one of the very few examples of art in the game community.

And I don't mean the plot is "good" in the sense that it's interesting or fun to watch- but rather that it's truly art; it offers sincere and relevant statements about life that are presented in a masterful and subtle way.

[M@]

Ladies and gentlemen, Silent Hill 4. (http://www.the-magicbox.com/game010604a.shtml)

http://www.the-magicbox.com/Jan04/sh41.jpg
http://www.the-magicbox.com/Jan04/sh42.jpg
http://www.the-magicbox.com/Jan04/sh45.jpg

James? Methinks not. From what I hear, 4 revolves around the above dude, whose apartment (Not in SH) links to the nightmare world. Each time he enters, he dies after a while. Then wakes up back in The Room -- Groundhog day style.

[Firedrake]

Ladies and gentlemen, Silent Hill 4. (http://www.the-magicbox.com/game010604a.shtml)

http://www.the-magicbox.com/Jan04/sh41.jpg
http://www.the-magicbox.com/Jan04/sh42.jpg
http://www.the-magicbox.com/Jan04/sh45.jpg

James? Methinks not. From what I hear, 4 revolves around the above dude, whose apartment (Not in SH) links to the nightmare world. Each time he enters, he dies after a while. Then wakes up back in The Room -- Groundhog day style.Ah, well. I was close. :P
Just rumours I read in a mag, glad to see they were true to some degree. I hope Pyramid Head is back, though....

[StanTuna, Vaporwaremonger]

...but that still doesnt really explain why its flying upside down, hurling vortexs of bats everywhere...its just crazy)
Not bats,butterflies.
The same as in the apartment building.
Moths.
Since they gather around lights.


Butterflies, cause they correspond with her tatoo (and the name of the song. ;)) And I'm pretty sure that they are butterflies in the apartment. Besides, why would someone collect moths in cages?

[Firedrake]

What's this? A Silent Hill comic? As form of advertising the new game? Why yes it is. Well, at least 5 pages from it, that is...
http://www.geocities.com/dafrog3k2/silenthillcomic_2.txt
http://www.geocities.com/dafrog3k2/silenthillcomic_3.txt
http://www.geocities.com/dafrog3k2/silenthillcomic_4.txt
http://www.geocities.com/dafrog3k2/silenthillcomic_5.txt
http://www.geocities.com/dafrog3k2/silenthillcomic_6.txt

[Eccles]

I guess you never took time to use the chainsaw or jackhammer. For using the 'saw, you don't swing it but rather use should hold R2 and charge the enemy, and step back when they attempt an attack. As for the jackhammer, it's used to keep foes at an arm's length to attack or else you're fucked. Also, it knocked the enemy back alittle so use don't have to keep running back!
The chainsaw is too slow and has a range that means you have to be practically INSIDE the enemy for the 'saw to have any effect.

The rock hammer is the same weapon. Only less powerful and you cant move when youre holding it.

Sorry, but give me the hammer or the rifle any day.
Or the chainsaw in SH2...
Its got a long range, its powerful and...
http://home.comcast.net/~andydthorley/james-saw.JPG
You can swing it about, screaming like a maniac

[NSR::Neko]

Isn't it COMPLETELY obvious why Laura's in Silent Hill? She's annoyed people to the point that they are willing to commit suicide to get away from her. Nuff. Said. XD (yes, that was a joke. ha. ha. ha. *beat with a 2x4 with nails in it*)

I adore Silent Hill, and have played all three in the series... SH2 would be my fave thus far. I haven't gotten too far in SH3 yet, though... so it may dominate soon... I really adore SH2 for its weirdness factor, especially towards the end, in the labyrinth and abyss.. you know. The place thing. With no map. XD

The hotel was also really neat... after it flooded. Best. Silent Hill. Music. EVER.

Silent Hill 2's plot would also have to be the best, as Israfel earlier stated... wicked religious symbolism, too. Well... all of the games had wicked religious symbolism... but SH2's just stood out the most metaphorically, which was cool. SH1 was just so damn blunt about it. XD

[Salamander]

Eccles wrote:
Johnny Carwash wrote:
Eccles wrote:
...but that still doesnt really explain why its flying upside down, hurling vortexs of bats everywhere...its just crazy)

Not bats,butterflies.
The same as in the apartment building.

Moths.
Since they gather around lights.



Butterflies, cause they correspond with her tatoo (and the name of the song. ) And I'm pretty sure that they are butterflies in the apartment. Besides, why would someone collect moths in cages?


Spoilers! I mean it! Don't read unless you want the three games ruined!














They're moths. Why? Because they are the insect that represents Samael, the fallen angel who controls Silent Hill and who is the power locked inside of Alessa/Cheryl.

Moths are everywhere in the three games, in the first game you fight a moth larva and an adult moth. In SH2, that one room is filled with moths and Maria's tattoo is of a moth. The final boss is also surrounded by moths and uses them as a weapon to hold you in place so she can strangle you with her tail/tentacle. In SH3, in Alessa's room at the end of the game there is a display case filled with different species of moths.

What does this all mean?

Throughout all the games, Samael is watching you.

Hope that helps all you guys :D

[Eccles]

See?

Moths.

[M@]

I always took them to mean that, as SH is like James' purgatory, they were butterflies, reflective of change and rebirth from his 'cocoon' of guilt. Then again, I never really thought about them too much.

[Mecha Angel]

Jill sandwich, thats still a classic...

Anyway, Silent Hill is weird in its own way, yet I, like many, have never completed the first game due to how freaky it was...
It feels like the last two games have dumbed down in terms of horror...

[NSR::Neko]

Actually, in the one room in the first apartment building, those aren't moths. If you examine the one on the bed, the text reads "There is a body of a dead butterfly on the bed.". BUTTERFLY. It makes more sense that way too. I mean, the final boss song IS titled "Butterflies", and I've seen butterflies being attracted to light as well. Butterflies, in my opinion, also have a more symbolic meaning in Silent Hill.

Yeah, I'm done now.

[Eccles]

y'know, Im beginning to think that my silent hill OSTs aren't from the series at all.

I mean...the UFO themes to SH1 and 2 arent on the CDs...the SH1 CD is missing the out-take reel song and I dont remember seeing a track called BUTTERFLIES anywhere on the damn SH2 CD

[NSR::Neko]

You have some screeeeewwwwwwwy soundtracks, man.

Where'd you pick 'em up? Because Butterflies is the final battle track from SH2. Do you recall "Terror in the Depths of the Fog" or "The Darkness in Our Minds" being on those CDs?

Because I don't recall "Terror in the Depths of the Fog" (most pornographic industrial Silent Hill track EVER) being in SH2... EVER. WHERE is it? Anybody know?... anybody?

[Doulifée]

SH2 OST Tracks:
1 theme of laura
2 White noiz
3 forest
4 world of madness
5 Ordinary vanity
6 Promise
7 Ashes and ghost
8 Null moon
9 Heaven's night
10 Alone in the town
11 The darkness that lurk in our mind
12 Angel thanatos
13 The day of the night
14 Block mind
15 Magdalene
16 Fermata in mystic air
17 Prisonic fairytales
18 Love psalm
19 Silent heaven
20 Noone love you
21 The reverse will
22 Laura plays the piano
23 Terrors in the depths of the fog
24 True
25 Betrayal
26 Black fairy
27 Theme of laura (reprise)
28 Overdose desillusion
29 Pianissimo
30 Promise

No butterflies anywhere!!

[Kawaiininjakat Haruspex]

Eccles and Doulifee are both right, there's no track called Butterflies on the soundtrack, and their cds are not screwy. That's the official release track list.

[Doulifée]

my silent hill 2 ost is labelled Konami but not the silent hill 1 ost.. mmh look like there is different cd release.

[Eccles]

I thought they only released the one CD...

Though it would make sense.
"Red Pyramids" isnt on my OST either.

[StarZander]

SPOLER!






























Could someone please explain something to me? In SH1 and 3, Alessa is the reason the town is so fucked up. From her nightmares, and being the mother of God, she has powers, and people called her a witch. But... In SH2... Where the hell does everything come from? I mean... James is no witch. Is he? He has no powers. Still... Most things revolve around him there. Does he have some connection to Alessa? Or was Mary and Alessa in the SH hospital at the same time? In those deep underground, wierd hospital rooms? I haven't seen every ending in SH2 yet, so if it is explained in one of them, just let me know. Otherwise... Could someomne explain? =/

[Doulifée]

it's probably the remaining power of samael itself who kept the reverside of sh alive. and james is going an endless travel for is sin. it's doesn't end because he want to be punished for is sin.

[Eccles]

Close.

Silent hill is what you bring to it.
Consider Angela...

Now consider the bedmonsters and the pyramid heads.

See what I'm getting at here?

[Warmech]

Yeah, SH2 could have something to do with Samael still kinda lingering there, but the game really just serves to show that the town is still messed up between the years of SH1 and SH3. I think that James is so screwed in the head that he sees all the scary stuff. Like Eccles said, look at Angela.

[Firedrake]

Close.

Silent hill is what you bring to it.
Consider Angela...

Now consider the bedmonsters and the pyramid heads.

See what I'm getting at here?Speaking of which, apart from symbolising pain and maybe being higher up, is there any particular reason for Pyramid Heads having pyramids for heads?

[danro4]

Close.

Silent hill is what you bring to it.
Consider Angela...

Now consider the bedmonsters and the pyramid heads.

See what I'm getting at here?Speaking of which, apart from symbolising pain and maybe being higher up, is there any particular reason for Pyramid Heads having pyramids for heads?

I always thought PH had his head like that cause he was wearing a hood of some type when he was a normal person, and it kinda became permanent in monster world.... form.....

[Eccles]

The fact that Angela would do all she could not to see the face of...you know who...made it so that pyramid head doesnt have a face.
(Also, this is why the people in bedmonster are positioned the way they are)

[StanTuna, Vaporwaremonger]

Erm... bedmonster? I always heard them being called "doormen", though you're probably right, it would make more sense.

[Eccles]

Erm... bedmonster? I always heard them being called "doormen", though you're probably right, it would make more sense.
dude...its a bed :P

In fact...
http://home.comcast.net/~andydthorley/sh2-cre-07.JPG

^
From the SH DVD
It's easier to see what they're trying to convey there, isnt it...

I have no idea why people would suggest it's a door...but Ive heard crazier theories about silent hill (HARRY R PIRAMID HEAD LOLOLOL) so I'm not too surprised...

[StarZander]

I have no idea why people would suggest it's a door...but Ive heard crazier theories about silent hill (HARRY R PIRAMID HEAD LOLOLOL) so I'm not too surprised...

Yeah, that's just crazy. Harry's flying around with the aliens. =) 'Tis a shame James wasn't in the SH3 UFO ending... But I can't complain too much... The UFO ending in SH3 rocked. Love that song!! :D

[Doulifée]

everybody call them doormen but i agree with eccles bedman have more signification...

[Firedrake]

The fact that Angela would do all she could not to see the face of...you know who...made it so that pyramid head doesnt have a face.
(Also, this is why the people in bedmonster are positioned the way they are)This does make sense, sure, but as far as I remember, we never see Angela facing Pyramid Head, though I can see your point, what with Pyramid Head's..hmm...carnal tastes.
I'm just trying to see what the pyramid symbolises in reference to James. Following your no face idea, I can assume shame, but why a pyramid? It could have been any other shape.

[Eccles]

I have no idea why people would suggest it's a door...but Ive heard crazier theories about silent hill (HARRY R PIRAMID HEAD LOLOLOL) so I'm not too surprised...

Yeah, that's just crazy. Harry's flying around with the aliens. =) 'Tis a shame James wasn't in the SH3 UFO ending... But I can't complain too much... The UFO ending in SH3 rocked. Love that song!! :D
http://home.comcast.net/~andydthorley/James.JPG
He's in there twice.

everybody call them doormen but i agree with eccles bedman have more signification...
I do believe in the official Konami strategy guide it calls them bedmen. I'm just putting two and two together, here...y'know, with Angela and all...

[Firedrake]

everybody call them doormen but i agree with eccles bedman have more signification...Hell, I heard one theory that their shape was due to Mary's photo. :roll:

[Doulifée]

i have the brady one they are called doormen :!:

[Eccles]

i have the brady one they are called doormen :!:
In one strategy guide they say Lisa turns into a zombie.

People dont know anything.

[Doulifée]

i have the brady one they are called doormen :!:
In one strategy guide they say Lisa turns into a zombie.

People dont know anything.

and then the tyran come from the ground and a helpful guy throw you a rocket laucher. WHAT that wasn't silent hill !!!! my sellers fool me 8O
95/100 stars at sh3. BLAST i haven't kill enough monsters. it piss me off

[Cuddly PyramidHead]

The fact that Angela would do all she could not to see the face of...you know who...made it so that pyramid head doesnt have a face.
(Also, this is why the people in bedmonster are positioned the way they are)This does make sense, sure, but as far as I remember, we never see Angela facing Pyramid Head, though I can see your point, what with Pyramid Head's..hmm...carnal tastes.
I'm just trying to see what the pyramid symbolises in reference to James. Following your no face idea, I can assume shame, but why a pyramid? It could have been any other shape.
The Pyramid ties in with the caps the executioners wore back when Silent Hill was a military prison during the Civil War.

Also, regarding the doorman/bedman controversy:
They're called doormen in American strategy guides and documentation because Americans just can't handle the concept of sexual violence. It's clear what they are if you look at them, but Konami doesn't want to be known in America as "the people who made that game with the rape monsters."

[Eccles]

Listen to cuddly pyramid head, children, he knows more than I do...

[Doulifée]

there is a pyramid head in sh2 but not a "cuddly" one !!
and at the beginning pyramid head don't have a pyramid in his head but some tissue wrapped around his head.

[Kawaiininjakat Haruspex]

Listen to cuddly pyramid head, children, he knows more than I do...

Cuddly Pyramidhead is the only Pyramidhead I like. The other ones give me rape nightmares.

[Cuddly PyramidHead]

I still love how the Pyramid Head introduction pays homage to the two closet scenes from Blue Velvet. Classy stuff.

[Kawaiininjakat Haruspex]

I still love how the Pyramid Head introduction pays homage to the two closet scenes from Blue Velvet. Classy stuff.

Yeah I have to admit that was pretty classy. First time I think I've ever had bad dreams from a video game afterwards though. And what's even worse was I dreamed I was the one in the closet. ;P

[Doulifée]

that why i always wear a map of my appartement, a red pen , a lamp, a radio and an iron pipes when i go home at night

[Eccles]

there is a pyramid head in sh2 but not a "cuddly" one !!
and at the beginning pyramid head don't have a pyramid in his head but some tissue wrapped around his head.
Yes it does, doesnt it?
The DVD says it does...

[Doulifée]

there is a pyramid head in sh2 but not a "cuddly" one !!
and at the beginning pyramid head don't have a pyramid in his head but some tissue wrapped around his head.
Yes it does, doesnt it?
The DVD says it does...
it's the cuddly version of PH. that why they don't use him in SH. to CUDDLY :o

[Warmech]

Where's this DVD that you all keep talking about?

[Doulifée]

Where's this DVD that you all keep talking about?
sh2 first edition with 2 cd the game and the making of

[ifirit]

You have some screeeeewwwwwwwy soundtracks, man.

Where'd you pick 'em up? Because Butterflies is the final battle track from SH2. Do you recall "Terror in the Depths of the Fog" or "The Darkness in Our Minds" being on those CDs?

Because I don't recall "Terror in the Depths of the Fog" (most pornographic industrial Silent Hill track EVER) being in SH2... EVER. WHERE is it? Anybody know?... anybody?

I believe the track "Butterflies" which you are refering is from the "Silent Hill Compositions" album ripped by Nursery Cryme and given the title arbitarily. You are welcome to visit the site (http://www.nurserycryme.net/sh2/music/sh2music.html) (Dead Link) for more information. OR you may have gotten it from the complete soundtrack from Dustfungus' site (http://www.shm.dustfungo.com) (Link updated) of the same track by the same name.

Also, "Terror in the Depths of the Fog" is the ending theme to the "Born From A Wish" extra story on the X-box version, Silent Hill 2: Restless Dreams. I believe "The Darkness that Lurks in Our Mind" is the music heard when you fight nurses (radio turned off).

Truthfully, the Silent Hill soundtracks have never really been produced as direct rips from the games but as pieces that Akira Yamaoka thinks would be marketable to the public. So, the names of tracks would, consequently, not directly be interpretations of the game, but rather more marketable titles, like "Butterflies." Because, who would buy a track that's called "Mothes," honestly? (Please don't respond. It's just a rhetorical question.)

[Doulifée]

Currently listening to mothes

you're right only a n00b can listening to SilentHill_mothes.mp3

[Warmech]

Where's this DVD that you all keep talking about?
sh2 first edition with 2 cd the game and the making of

And is that available anywhere, did you have to preorder something, or what?

[Firedrake]

Listen to cuddly pyramid head, children, he knows more than I do...

Cuddly Pyramidhead is the only Pyramidhead I like. The other ones give me rape nightmares.>.>
<.<

SILENT HILL 2 HENTAI!

[Eccles]

Listen to cuddly pyramid head, children, he knows more than I do...

Cuddly Pyramidhead is the only Pyramidhead I like. The other ones give me rape nightmares.>.>
<.<

SILENT HILL 2 HENTAI!
Actually, I do have silent hill tentacle-dickgirl-vaginabreast hentai...

Where's this DVD that you all keep talking about?
sh2 first edition with 2 cd the game and the making of

And is that available anywhere, did you have to preorder something, or what?
Got it off-a ebay, I think...

Anyway, it's called "lost Memories" and its got images from the silent hill games, including Cut-scenes, monsters, concept art...that kinda thing.

It's not worth the full price, but I got it cheap, so thats great.

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 1, 2 & 3 Spoilers

Could someone please explain something to me? In SH1 and 3, Alessa is the reason the town is so fucked up. From her nightmares, and being the mother of God, she has powers, and people called her a witch. But... In SH2... Where the hell does everything come from? I mean... James is no witch. Is he? He has no powers. Still... Most things revolve around him there. Does he have some connection to Alessa? Or was Mary and Alessa in the SH hospital at the same time? In those deep underground, wierd hospital rooms? I haven't seen every ending in SH2 yet, so if it is explained in one of them, just let me know. Otherwise... Could someomne explain? =/

Each of the games in the Silent Hill series have dealt with a different interpretation of reality. The first suggesting that the world can be altered phyically and that reality doesn't exist on solely one plane. The second game dealt with the idea that reality is only what you make of it; your actions determine how the world, and thus reality, are shaped. The third suggested that reality can be controlled rather than just reflecting our nature or beliefs, and alternatively changed. Either way, there is a theme that the concept of reality is dynamic.

I believe that in Silent Hill 2, James sees the towns of South Vale and Paleville (he never actually steps foot in central Silent Hill) as images in his mind. All the monsters, all the settings and even the characters are merely illusions of his guilty conscience. Many psychologists believe that the mind is a powerful and can alter reality for a person when pushed to extremes, in James' case killing his wife.

Also, from the Rebirth ending, you learn about the presense of the "old gods" in Silent Hill, which can add to affect that one's mind has on reality. I believe that everything in the game takes place in James' mind. All the characters represent a different aspect of James' emotional state. (This theory was mentioned in an old Silent Hill topic in Unmod, and I forget who to attribute it too.)

Obviously, Maria represents everything James wanted Mary to be: sexy, outgoing, funny, attentive. She also represented the thing James wanted most: Mary, to whom he would ultimately atone. Also, we know that Pyramid Head represents James' want to be punished, since it appears he recieved no retribution for his crime in the real world.

Here, though I tend to deviate, because I also think that Angela, Eddie and Laura are also just represtative of his mind. Angela represents James' feelings as a victim and wanting to be a victim, since he blames Mary for causing him three years of pain. This aspect of James is probably why some people call him "whiny." Anyway, from the "In Water" ending, we see how James resolves his problem similarly to Angela.

We also see similarities between James and Eddie, as they are both killers. Eddie represents James desire to backlash at people who hurt him. Look at the reasons why Eddie kills all his victims; he thinks the world is out to get him. Though I admit Eddie seems a little crazier about it than James was, James does have a darker side to him since at the time, he fantasied killing Mary. This is revealed in the Maria ending and suggested by Maria and Angela.

Lastly, we have Laura. Laura is a more simple character as she isn't tormented by inner demons; she's a child. Anyway, Laura is just the representation of James' want to find Mary. She wonders around the town trying to find Mary as does James, but isn't affected by any of the monsters that James "sees." She also represents James naive nature about what happened to Mary, since he doesn't realize what he's done until he's faced with the evidence, much like a child.

Still, each character sees a different reality. Angela and the fire, Eddie and the laughing faces, and Laura in an empty town. So, there really isn't much witchcraft going on, just different interpretations of reality.

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 1 & 3 Spoilers

Thanks IronKnuckle. You have an interesting theory too.

However, there is evidence to believe a third theory about Alessa's soul: only half her soul is human. You see in the second to last cutscene, the doctors discuss why they can't harness Samael/Incubus/the god's power, because they only have half the soul. The ceremony that they performed to get the soul of the Incubus had a limiting effect and were only able to get half the soul. Alessa was merely a vessel from conception. So she only has half her own soul, the rest filled by the Incubus. And apparently, it doesn't have much power.

We infer from the scene in Daliah's house, that Daliah plans to bring the other half of the soul into the world by giving birth to Cheryl. So each girl is really a half girl, possessing only half a soul. When they are joined, does Heather's soul form. I believe that when Daliah combined the two, two people were formed: Alessa, mother of god and Alessa, daughter of god. As we see in SH3, god (Incubus) is formed in a whole form, but exists inside another person. I believe this is why Heather doesn't have any power, but Alessa/Cheryl did.

In order for Daliah to control Alessa's power, she needed the excite the soul. So she tried to kill her. Well, we saw what happened, but it didn't work, and Alessa became horribly burned. For convenient reasons, Daliah told people that she had died and kept her hidden in the basement of the hospital. There she could perform her ceremonies in private and draw whatever power she needed. But nothing happened, since only half the soul was there. And so, Cheryl was born with the second half. But, somehow Cheryl disappeared.

When Cheryl returned to Silent Hill, the full power of the god was brought forth. Still, Daliah had no control over this power and Alessa had gone beyond her reach, so she employed a servant, pawn if you will, to find Alessa for her, because Alessa now had the power to evade Daliah. With some magical spells to confine Alessa to Silent Hill and a talisman called the Flauros, she hoped to gain that power. And so the role of Harry is filled. However, I don't think Harry was Daliah's first attempt to use a pawn, which may explain the presence of Cybil and Dr. Kaufman in Silent Hill and why you don't meet Daliah until later.

Thus, I believe that the plot of Silent Hill is just Daliah's attempt to control Alessa's power.

[ifirit]

The theories originate mostly from the refernces in the game. This part comes mostly from "Rosemary's Baby."

EDIT: Anybody else notice that Heather's pendant is the same as Rosemary's from the movie. Was it just a coincidence that it was used to bring god out of Heather?

[Eccles]

ifirit, very interesting theory.

Silent Hill 2 was by far my favorite, mainly because James's character is so utterly believable. I tend to think he is absolutely nutty as they come, yet very human.
I didnt like James...really.

[Eccles]

I see...where did this half-soul theory originate? Was it stated in any of the games? Bearing in mind I haven't played 3 much at all, I fully realize my take on the games could be totally incorrect.
It was explicitlly explained in SH1

[Night10194]

Just got Silent Hill 2 for the PC...I'll provide my crazed Englisher's analysis as soon as I get far enough. Glad to see so much interesting discussion on this extremely intriguing series.

[StarZander]

Thank you all, for your theories on SH2. I've only beaten it three times so far, and I haven't gotten the Rebirth ending just yet. I'm working on it though.

I HAVE played the other two games enough to make my own theories about them... No real overall theories perhaps, but theories on a few things inside the plot. For example... It is told in the first game that Alessa was burned alive, probably by her mother, in order to stop Samael from using her. But... She lives, somehow, in the hospital. Lisa watches over her all the time, and wonders what's keeping her alive. The theory of her only having half her soul, might be a result of the tremendous injury and pain from the fire. But... At some point she dies. Or, atleast, she is reborn. This is when Harry and his wife finds her as a baby. They adopt her, and name her Cheryl. Perhaps the scorched body of Alessa lives on, even though she has been reborn as Cheryl, and when Alessa finally dies, Samael summons Cheryl, and Harry, to Silent Hill in order for them to complete the ritual and manifestation of Samael into our world. But something that's more likely to be true, in my opinion, is that the scorched body lives on, so that Samael has some power in our world, but it's not enough to change it completely. He then summons Cheryl to Silent Hill, and with her help, he can be complete.

The "Nightmare" states of the school and hospital can be explained by these theories:

Samael want to create a "Paradise" for all of humanity (as suggested in SH3), but he has no knowledge of what paradise would be to a human. Since he has possessed Alessa, the only source of information available to him, are her memories. But Alessa has no pleasant memories... She has only experienced nightmares. At school, the kids teased and hazed her and called her a witch, because of her powers, and therefor the school is the first place to be turned into the "Nightmare" state. The walls look scorched, from the fire experience she had, and this manifest itself everywhere, probably since it was such a traumatic experience. Then the hospital room had a grating floor (which also manifest itself in most "Nightmare" places) and since the hospital is a very important place to Alessa, that is also turned into "Nightmare" early. Then the rest of the town start to change into all of this.

Then the characters. There are only a few people "allowed" to be in Silent Hill, and those are connected Alessa or Cheryl in some way. Harry was Cheryl's father, and since Cheryl wanted to be with him, he didn't disappear or turn into a monster. Also Dahlia was Alessas mother, and Alessa probably saw some comfort with her, so she could be there aswell. Lisa watched over Alessa in the hospital all the time, so Alessa knew that she was no monster, like the rest of the town and the kids at school (they are monsters to Alessa because of what they did to her). OR maybe Alessas "Paradise" was to just kill everyone that made her life hell, or show them what a hell it was, and therefor this occured with Samael's powers.

I don't know how Cybil fits in though. Perhaps Cheryls way of trying to help Harry. Everyone needs a friend, right? Same with the items you find everywhere. It's like a fight between Alessa and Cheryl sometimes. Alessa wins over Cheryl a bit when Cybil is possessed and tries to kill Harry.

Then we have the Doctor and the drugs... I have no real theories about this... Was he one of the doctors standing over Alessa, planning on the whole thing?

Anyway. I have to go to bed now, but tell me what you think of my theories, and I'll read it in the morning. :)

[Night10194]

Oh, and this Silent Hill comic that came up earlier? Pray tell where it was from, please?

[StarZander]

Oh, and this Silent Hill comic that came up earlier? Pray tell where it was from, please?

It was no comic. It was a clip from the UFO ending in SH3.

[Cuddly PyramidHead]

Oh, and this Silent Hill comic that came up earlier? Pray tell where it was from, please?

It was no comic. It was a clip from the UFO ending in SH3.
No, the other comic that Dracko posted.

[Eccles]

Oh, and this Silent Hill comic that came up earlier? Pray tell where it was from, please?

It was no comic. It was a clip from the UFO ending in SH3.
No, the other comic that Dracko posted.
I do believe I have 6 more pages of that lurking about my HD somewhere

-edit-
I also have the DVD on here...though I'ma dump it tonight cause I could do with 16mb more space :o

[Doulifée]

maybe cybil pass on the another reality because she was near harry's car. i suppose when alessa's half spirit cheryl came near her, something happens and she was drowned to the foggy silent hill. harry and cybil was drowned there to. That don't explain why she was not turned into a monster at least not immediately....

[Eccles]

maybe cybil pass on the another reality because she was near harry's car. i suppose when alessa's half spirit cheryl came near her, something happens and she was drowned to the foggy silent hill. harry and cybil was drowned there to. That don't explain why she was not turned into a monster at least not immediately....
Everybody in silent hill 1 was in an altered state of consciousness when the game begins.
Harry was unconscious at the wheel
Lisa was also unconscious
Kaufmann was taking a nap
Cybil was in Brahms.

similarly, when silent hill goes to the darkside with Cybil in it, she was knocked out thanks to the leech that got her in the sewers.

[ifirit]

From what I've heard, there are three Cybil extra stories revealed in the "Silent Hill: Play Novel" which was released in Japan only. If anyone can read Japanese, maybe they could provide a translation for us.

However, from the screenshots, it looks like the is some interaction between Cybil, Alessa, Cheryl and another character, whom I don't recognize. If you'd like to read a partial translation, check it out here (http://www.silenthillheaven.com/Site/SHpn/Main.html). (Dead Link)

[Doulifée]

thank for the link ifrit !

Eccles >>
Everything was made like each character is living a nightmare..

[Eccles]

thank for the link ifrit !

Eccles >>
Everything was made like each character is living a nightmare..
I would say no to that.
Since Kauffmann seems to have no problem in the game (save for the one instance when you shoot a growler offa him)

Same deal with Dhalia.

[Doulifée]

i was talking about playable character here.
Harry wake up in his car, Heather is sleeping in the burger shop. exception of james but he look like an awakening man after a long trip on the road

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 1 Spoilers

Thank you all, for your theories on SH2. I've only beaten it three times so far, and I haven't gotten the Rebirth ending just yet. I'm working on it though.

I HAVE played the other two games enough to make my own theories about them... No real overall theories perhaps, but theories on a few things inside the plot. For example... It is told in the first game that Alessa was burned alive, probably by her mother, in order to stop Samael from using her. But... She lives, somehow, in the hospital. Lisa watches over her all the time, and wonders what's keeping her alive. The theory of her only having half her soul, might be a result of the tremendous injury and pain from the fire. But... At some point she dies. Or, atleast, she is reborn. This is when Harry and his wife finds her as a baby. They adopt her, and name her Cheryl. Perhaps the scorched body of Alessa lives on, even though she has been reborn as Cheryl, and when Alessa finally dies, Samael summons Cheryl, and Harry, to Silent Hill in order for them to complete the ritual and manifestation of Samael into our world. But something that's more likely to be true, in my opinion, is that the scorched body lives on, so that Samael has some power in our world, but it's not enough to change it completely. He then summons Cheryl to Silent Hill, and with her help, he can be complete.

I think you need to listen more closely to the dialogue in both SH1 & 3, particularly the "Drawing Power Conversation" (SH1), the "Good Ending" (SH1) and the "Car Ride" (SH3).

The "Nightmare" states of the school and hospital can be explained by these theories:

Samael want to create a "Paradise" for all of humanity (as suggested in SH3), but he has no knowledge of what paradise would be to a human. Since he has possessed Alessa, the only source of information available to him, are her memories. But Alessa has no pleasant memories... She has only experienced nightmares. At school, the kids teased and hazed her and called her a witch, because of her powers, and therefor the school is the first place to be turned into the "Nightmare" state. The walls look scorched, from the fire experience she had, and this manifest itself everywhere, probably since it was such a traumatic experience. Then the hospital room had a grating floor (which also manifest itself in most "Nightmare" places) and since the hospital is a very important place to Alessa, that is also turned into "Nightmare" early. Then the rest of the town start to change into all of this.

Two things need to be clarified: 1) Samael isn't looking to create paradise, the Hope House Cult ( the cult of Silent Hill) is looking for the the road to salvation to be opened up. Paradise was already created by God, but the road was not revealed to her followers. 2) Alessa's markings were not creating a path or paradise, but were, as Daliah put it, "sealing the town to the abyss." I believe this means that Alessa was sealing her power away from Daliah by hiding the town in darkness, which is not what Daliah wanted. However, the true purpose of the Mark of Metatron (aka the "Mark of Samael") is never revealed.

Then the characters. There are only a few people "allowed" to be in Silent Hill, and those are connected Alessa or Cheryl in some way. Harry was Cheryl's father, and since Cheryl wanted to be with him, he didn't disappear or turn into a monster. Also Dahlia was Alessas mother, and Alessa probably saw some comfort with her, so she could be there aswell. Lisa watched over Alessa in the hospital all the time, so Alessa knew that she was no monster, like the rest of the town and the kids at school (they are monsters to Alessa because of what they did to her). OR maybe Alessas "Paradise" was to just kill everyone that made her life hell, or show them what a hell it was, and therefor this occured with Samael's powers.

It's true that only certain people are drawn to Silent Hill. However, in Silent Hill 1, the people who are drawn into Alessa's world have some use to Daliah, excluding Lisa. Harry is Daliah's pawn, her Flauros piece. Cybil acts as support for Harry, helping him track his daughter, providing valuable information about Alessa/Cheryl's whereabouts, checking the amusement park while he checks the lighthouse, ect. Dr. Kaufman had been Daliah's primary source of help in the real world, so naturally she chose him to help her find Alessa by drawning him into Silent Hill. Yet, my instincts tell me that she gave up on him when she put her Flauros piece into play, letting him as well as Cybil roam around the town.

I believe that Daliah is the one who is helping Harry out along his search. She places helpful items, clues and hints along his path ("path of the hermit consealed by Flauros"). Daliah states her intentions everytime you speak with her, though it is a bit cryptic.

Think about what certain things try to get Harry to do. Take for instance the phone call in Midwich. The call excites Harry to find Cheryl quickly. Don't be fooled because you hear Cheryl's voice on the phone, it might not really be her. Look again at the drawings left behind in the alley and on Levin St.; they are written in Cheryl's handwriting, but how easy is it to copy a seven-year-old's handwriting? These things drive Harry to keep looking for Cheryl/Alessa, but if she didn't want to be found by Daliah, why would she entice Harry, the pawn, to find her?

Now look at what Alessa/Cheryl do to keep Harry from finding her. She creates monsters to halt his actions which become increasingly stronger the closer Harry gets to her. She blocks his path by locking doors and placing puzzles (remember the puzzle books in Alessa's room). But there is some inconsistancy in the way she deters Harry from his search. One, she uses excessive force to stop him (the monsters and bosses), which is strange to do to someone you love. Two, she tries to burden his search with riddles and puzzles, which seems too smart for a seven year old. And three, she tries to pursuade him to stop looking for her by using Lisa, which is unusual since Cheryl never met Lisa, and is too peaceful an approach after trying to kill him. This suggests that there is some problems in Alessa's ability to control her world. At times, Samael's fury tries to destroy those who get too close, at others, Cheryl's love for her father persuade Alessa to seek more peaceful deterants. While in between, Alessa uses her intellect to stump Harry in his path.

I don't know how Cybil fits in though. Perhaps Cheryls way of trying to help Harry. Everyone needs a friend, right? Same with the items you find everywhere. It's like a fight between Alessa and Cheryl sometimes. Alessa wins over Cheryl a bit when Cybil is possessed and tries to kill Harry.

Then we have the Doctor and the drugs... I have no real theories about this... Was he one of the doctors standing over Alessa, planning on the whole thing?

Cybil's role in Silent Hill is to play the "confidant." A "confidant" is a character or person who provides an ear for the main character to explain his ideas, or to discuss the events that have happened so that the audience can understand what the main character is thinking and feeling. However, the specifics of Cybil's role to the plot are hiddened from Harry since his persective doesn't give the overall truth. However, Cybil's perspective is told in the "Play Novel," but I have not read it yet.

The part of Dr. Kaufman and the drugs (better known as White Claudia) is merely backstory. Using the infomation given to Harry about the White Claudia and the doctors involvement, we learn something about the presence of a cult in Silent Hill. We then learn something about their ceremonies and their attempt to find "paradise." We learn that the drug was used to perform ceremonies and to keep cult members obidient. We learn from Dr. Kaufman's clues that he was the manufacturer of the White Claudia and oversaw all of Daliah's arrangements at the hospital. Yet, it is unclear as to whether or not he was a believer of "Samael" or if he was just using Daliah as way to gain power and money. But for some reason, he kept secrets away from Daliah, like the "Aglaophaotis" and secret drug stash in Indian Runner. This suggests the latter theory.

For those who have played Silent Hill 3, you learn the particulars of what the aglaophaotis is used for, but you can kind of guess it from watching it used in Silent Hill 1.

[Eccles]

Thank you all, for your theories on SH2. I've only beaten it three times so far, and I haven't gotten the Rebirth ending just yet. I'm working on it though.
Dude...the rebirth ending explains jack schitt.

It is told in the first game that Alessa was burned alive, probably by her mother, in order to stop Samael from using her.
Alessa was burned alive to cause so much pain her soul left the body (which, according to some cultures, is what happens when the human body is put through immense pain)

The theory of her only having half her soul, might be a result of the tremendous injury and pain from the fire. But... At some point she dies. Or, atleast, she is reborn. This is when Harry and his wife finds her as a baby.
Cheryl is half of alessa.
Again, I draw here on the notes in the school.
The ones saying "Who are you" and such aren't meant for Harry, but theyre meant for Cheryl.
Which explains the reply "m e a r e U"

Perhaps the scorched body of Alessa lives on, even though she has been reborn as Cheryl, and when Alessa finally dies, Samael summons Cheryl, and Harry, to Silent Hill in order for them to complete the ritual and manifestation of Samael into our world. But something that's more likely to be true, in my opinion, is that the scorched body lives on, so that Samael has some power in our world, but it's not enough to change it completely. He then summons Cheryl to Silent Hill, and with her help, he can be complete.
The second one is correct. This is explained, as ifrit said, in certain endings to silent hill 1

in Silent Hill 1, the people who are drawn into Alessa's world have some use to Daliah, excluding Lisa.
Except that Lisa was probably dead to begin with so she doesnt count.

I believe that Daliah is the one who is helping Harry out along his search. She places helpful items, clues and hints along his path (path of the hermit consealed by Flauros). Daliah states her intentions everytime you speak with her, though it is a bit cryptic.
That doesnt make sense, y'know?
Dhalia is trying to help harry...even though she knows it could stop her seven year pln to take over the world? I highly doubt people would do that.

Think about what certain things try to get Harry to do. Take for instance the phone call in Midwich. The call excites Harry to find Cheryl quickly. Don't be fooled because you hear Cheryl's voice on the phone, it might not really be her. Look again at the drawings left behind in the alley and on Levin St.; they are written in Cheryl's handwriting, but how easy is it to copy a seven-year-old's handwriting? These things drive Harry to keep looking for Cheryl/Alessa, but if she didn't want to be found by Daliah, why would she entice Harry, the pawn, to find her?
The other theory goes that it's alessa manifesting those things so she can guide Harry to her, since he is the good guy (and the only one who can kill her, which is what she wants...hence her "Daddy...thank you daddy...goodbye" which I have as my shutdown noise ^.^)

And three, she tries to pursuade him to stop looking for her by using Lisa, which is unusual since Cheryl never met Lisa, and is too peaceful an approach after trying to kill him.
The rest of the post warranted chewing apart, but I'll spend time on this one.
Cheryl is NOT creating the alternative silent hill...okay?
It may be a hard concept to grasp that this sweet little 7 year old isnt summoning hell, but trust me on this one...she aint.

Lisa is proof that the world is something Alessa created. Since she only appears in the alternative world and cannot leave the hopsital; it proves that Alessa created her from her memories (since the alternative world is everything that alessa knows)

[StarZander]

Whoa whoa... Hey, Eccles, get your quotes right. I only said half those things. Blame ifrit, dude. :P

[Eccles]

dude...it was 7am, I was tired out of my skull...dont blame me u,u

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 1 Spoilers

in Silent Hill 1, the people who are drawn into Alessa's world have some use to Daliah, excluding Lisa.
Except that Lisa was probably dead to begin with so she doesnt count.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with that? Sorry, I can't tell.

I believe that Daliah is the one who is helping Harry out along his search. She places helpful items, clues and hints along his path (path of the hermit consealed by Flauros). Daliah states her intentions everytime you speak with her, though it is a bit cryptic.
That doesnt make sense, y'know?
Dhalia is trying to help harry...even though she knows it could stop her seven year pln to take over the world? I highly doubt people would do that.

This stems off my theory that the plot is just about the struggle between Daliah and Alessa: Daliah's attempt to find Alessa and Alessa's attempt to escape Daliah. Daliah needs the combined form of Alessa/Cheryl to make her seven year plan come true. Besides, Daliah blatantly helps Harry by giving him the Flauros and the drawbridge key. Without the Flauros, Harry would not have been able to reach Alessa, thus finding Cheryl. Remember the wall of light in the amusement park?

Think about what certain things try to get Harry to do. Take for instance the phone call in Midwich. The call excites Harry to find Cheryl quickly. Don't be fooled because you hear Cheryl's voice on the phone, it might not really be her. Look again at the drawings left behind in the alley and on Levin St.; they are written in Cheryl's handwriting, but how easy is it to copy a seven-year-old's handwriting? These things drive Harry to keep looking for Cheryl/Alessa, but if she didn't want to be found by Daliah, why would she entice Harry, the pawn, to find her?
The other theory goes that it's alessa manifesting those things so she can guide Harry to her, since he is the good guy (and the only one who can kill her, which is what she wants...hence her "Daddy...thank you daddy...goodbye" which I have as my shutdown noise ^.^)

True, that theory could work, but if you believe that, then why doesn't Alessa stick around after the Split Head (Lizard) battle in Midwich? Why does she run away on the Lighthouse? Why does she block Harry's path at the Amusement Park?

I think the reason that Alessa/Cheryl does say "thank you" to Harry in the Bad Endings isn't because he kills her, but because he released her from the "cage of peace," resetting the board, Alessa's world. I admit, it not airtight, but I'm trying to stay consistant with my theory.

And three, she tries to pursuade him to stop looking for her by using Lisa, which is unusual since Cheryl never met Lisa, and is too peaceful an approach after trying to kill him.
The rest of the post warranted chewing apart, but I'll spend time on this one.
Cheryl is NOT creating the alternative silent hill...okay?
It may be a hard concept to grasp that this sweet little 7 year old isnt summoning hell, but trust me on this one...she aint.

Lisa is proof that the world is something Alessa created. Since she only appears in the alternative world and cannot leave the hopsital; it proves that Alessa created her from her memories (since the alternative world is everything that alessa knows)

That's what I was saying; by suggesting that Cheryl didn't know Lisa, I was trying to suggest that Alessa was in control of the world. However, whose to say that Cheryl doesn't have some small influence on Alessa's world? Maybe Cheryl used Alessa's memory of the beloved nurse to create Lisa, because she couldn't remember her mother. (Cheryl was three when her mother, Harry's wife, died.) That would have given it away if Harry's dead wife showed up in Alchemilla.

But then again, Lisa is a very delicate subject and anything can be inferred by her presence.

[StanTuna, Vaporwaremonger]

Playing through SH1, learning stuff.



Anyways, speculation. Red god in SH2. Samael?

Once I finish SH1, I'ma play through SH2 again, try and find more connections. It didn't make any sense when I jsut played it... but yeah. Bump.

[Israfel]

Playing through SH1, learning stuff.



Anyways, speculation. Red god in SH2. Samael?

Once I finish SH1, I'ma play through SH2 again, try and find more connections. It didn't make any sense when I jsut played it... but yeah. Bump.
**Spoilers...of course**


Pay attention to the endings of SH1.
Notice the marks that Alessa is spreading across town, and then how it's referenced in SH3.

The question we should be asking is, does Samael even exist? Because the "mark of Samael" seems to *really* be the seal of Metatron.

[StanTuna, Vaporwaremonger]

I'll do that when I get to PLAY SH3. :P

[Eccles]

*bzzzt*
Im sorry, that's wrong.

The talisman of metratron is historically used to protect people.

The mark of samael is traditionally a summoning circle, designed to, get this, summon Samael.

[StanTuna, Vaporwaremonger]

http://www.afn.org/~afn25980/Megatron.jpg
:?:




Oh, read that wrong.

[ifirit]

Not to break off on too much of a tangent, but maybe Eccles could varify something. In the Japanese and European versions of Silent Hill, an extra quote was included in the game, so I've heard. I believe it had something to do with the town fire article Harry reads. I believe the quote said something like "the date of this article is the same day we found Cheryl."

Also, is it true that the Mumblers (knife-welding children) were replaced by the Clawfingers (clawed teddybears)? I heard the were edited out of the game because of censorship. Why, I wonder?

Again, as another side note, the extra character in the Silent Hill: Play Novel is an eight-year-old boy named Andy. He is apparantly Harry and Cheryl's neighbor. :? And he ends up in Silent Hill because he stows away in the back of Harry's car. :? He wanted to talk to Cheryl, but had never worked up the nerve while Cheryl was at home. So, he decides to follow them on their vacation. :?

[Eccles]

Not to break off on too much of a tangent, but maybe Eccles could varify something. In the Japanese and European versions of Silent Hill, an extra quote was included in the game, so I've heard. I believe it had something to do with the town fire article Harry reads. I believe the quote said something like "the date of this article is the same day we found Cheryl."
Nope. To be frank, I dont really recall an article about the fire. The only newspaper in the game (aside from the "BILL SKINS A FIFTH" ones in town, which always make me giggle) is in the medical room and that has an article clipped out, so you ant read it

Also, is it true that the Mumblers (knife-welding children) were replaced by the Clawfingers (clawed teddybears)? I heard the were edited out of the game because of censorship. Why, I wonder?
This is true. In the school, the little children with knives were replaced with bears. And not just in the school either, they're also in the teaser level at the beginning.

This is because a few months before there was a shooting in a primary (elementary) school in Dunblaine, Scotland. Some lunatic broke in and gunned down a class of 5 year olds, so the censors figured it would be offensive to the families to have children being shot in the game.

Incidentally, they left the invisible children in the game...there's only a few of them and you only find them in nowhere, but there are one or two hildren in the game. Apparently they were considered by the censors, not to resemble children enough.

Also, I had this discussion with stan...
Where, in the US edition of silent hill, does harry say
"its like...I was there...but not really"

Because it isnt in the Eurpoean edition, except for in the fucked up glitchy cutscene you can get in the Amusement park

[ifirit]

Nope. To be frank, I dont really recall an article about the fire. The only newspaper in the game (aside from the "BILL SKINS A FIFTH" ones in town, which always make me giggle) is in the medical room and that has an article clipped out, so you ant read it.

The newspaper article was in the book on the desk in Dr. Kaufman's office in Nowhere. It is a continuation of the one from Norman's Motel. The article reads as follows:

Investigation stalled.
"PTV" dealers still at large.

Suspicious deaths continue. First the anti-drug Mayor, now a narcotics officer dies of a sudden heart failure of unknown cause.

Fire broken out in town.
6 homes destroyed.

Chared body of Alessa Gillespie (7) found in aftermath.

Cause of fire currently under investigation.

Investigations show source as basement of Gillespie home. Blaze now believed caused by malfunction of antiqued boiler.

Did you miss it your way through the first time?

This is true. In the school, the little children with knives were replaced with bears. And not just in the school either, they're also in the teaser level at the beginning.

This is because a few months before there was a shooting in a primary (elementary) school in Dunblaine, Scotland. Some lunatic broke in and gunned down a class of 5 year olds, so the censors figured it would be offensive to the families to have children being shot in the game.

Incidentally, they left the invisible children in the game...there's only a few of them and you only find them in nowhere, but there are one or two hildren in the game. Apparently they were considered by the censors, not to resemble children enough.

Oh.

Also, I had this discussion with stan...
Where, in the US edition of silent hill, does harry say
"its like...I was there...but not really"

Because it isnt in the Eurpoean edition, except for in the fucked up glitchy cutscene you can get in the Amusement park

This quote comes from the Green Lion Antique Shop where you run into Cybil, while Harry relates his experience about the alternate Silent Hill. I believe the dialogue goes: (edited ellipses)

Harry: "Do you know anything about like some other world? It's like some kind of bad dream."
Cybil: "What are you talking about?"
Harry: "I'm not quite sure. I try to make sense of it, but then my mind goes blank. Everything's dark there and I hear sirens in the distance. I met this nurse Lisa. It's like I was there, but not really. It's all a blur, like some kind of halucination, you know?"
Cybil: "I have no idea what you're talking about, Harry."

[Eccles]

Did you miss it your way through the first time?
I must've forgotten it :P

[StarZander]

This quote comes from the Green Lion Antique Shop where you run into Cybil, while Harry relates his experience about the alternate Silent Hill. I believe the dialogue goes: (edited ellipses)
Harry: "Do you anything about some other world? It's like some kind of bad dream."
Cybil: "What are you talking about?"
Harry: "I'm not quite sure. I try to make sense of it, but then my mind goes blank. Everything's dark there and I hear sirens in the distance. I met this nurse Lisa. It's like I was there, but not really. It's all a blur, like some kind of halucination, you know?"
Cybil: "I have no idea what you're talking about, Harry."

I'm not entirely sure, but I recognize that line. I think it's in my version of SH1. I'm playing through it once again, as we speak, so I'm gonna make sure.

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 1 Spoilers

Anyone else notice that Harry's voice is used for one of the doctors in the Drawing Power conversation in Nowhere? Harry involved with the cult? This certainly adds evidence to the theory.

Someone has given the theory that Harry was once a member of "The Order" (the cult of Silent Hill) in Silent Hill, because he was a tourist there once. I didn't really entertain the theory because of such a poor connection. However, because of this conversation, I thought about it again. Not much is revealed about Harry before he finds Cheryl.

How was it that Harry and his wife just got away from Silent Hill with Cheryl without Daliah intervening? Wouldn't they have gone to the police first? Wouldn't someone at the hospital noticed a baby missing? Wouldn't it have taken months to adopt a child of that age?

These things just don't add up. It seems like there had to be either something happen in between and that more time ellapsed between Cheryl's first disappearance and the fire of Silent Hill. Was Harry actually involved with the cult? Would that explain why Harry was able to obtain Cheryl and why he was able to escape without the cult's involvement?

Maybe it's just me, but Daliah seems to know or, at least, knew about Harry when he visits the church. As she said, "I knew you would come. It was fortold by Gyromancy." She seems to have forseen Harry coming back to Silent Hill. Still, Harry seems to have no recollection of Daliah, the cult, the hospital, Lisa or anything else pertaining to Hope House (the cult of Silent Hill). So, there is nothing concrete and only some unanswered questions.

[Eccles]

Note:
Gyromancy is like a ouija board with humans.
A holy circle is drawn on the floor and the letters of the alphabet arranged round it. Somebody walks into the circle and staggers about, spelling out a prophecy on the letters they touch

[StarZander]

Note to all:

http://www.zone.ee/black_cube/sh/enter.html

If you haven't checked this site, then do it NOW! This guy has hacked the camears in the SH games and checked out most things. The pics here could add some theories perhaps. Especially this one pic from SH2. It's the guy who was smached into the TV in the aparment. Look! It's James himself!! :o

http://www.zone.ee/black_cube/sh/sh2/010.JPG

EDIT: Copy and paste the link into your browser

[Firedrake]

Note to all:

http://www.zone.ee/black_cube/sh/enter.html

If you haven't checked this site, then do it NOW! This guy has hacked the camears in the SH games and checked out most things. The pics here could add some theories perhaps. Especially this one pic from SH2. It's the guy who was smached into the TV in the aparment. Look! It's James himself!! :o

http://www.zone.ee/black_cube/sh/sh2/010.JPG

EDIT: Copy and paste the link into your browserOh, that's not new. The dead guy in the apartment in front of the TV filled with static is indeed James.

[Eccles]

He was smashed into the TV?

Looks like a gunshot wound to me

[Firedrake]

He was smashed into the TV?

Looks like a gunshot wound to meAnd you are correct. Shot from behind apparently. Most likely from Eddie.
AN omen of things to come? Or maybe it's actually a manifestation of James' desire of self-destruction.

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 2 Spoilers

Considering the topic of self-destruction, why is it in our nature to seek punishment on ourselves? Is it a result of strong feelings of guilt? Do you think it is developed by social interaction? Is it natural? If so, you are humans the only creatures that commit suicide?

Sometimes I feel like I can understand how James feels when he considers suicide, but I wonder, would I really think about suicide that seriously? Why would people seek self-destruction before redemption? Why do people seek self-destruction as a way of redemption?

Many cultures see it as the honorable why to face disgrace, so we see that it ties in with human nature, but at the same time we learn that taking our own lives cannot be justified. Why such a strange dichotomy?

How would you feel about someone killing themselves for honor? Would you be sad or proud? In James' case, the "In Water" ending, do you think he did the right thing? Do you think he deserved to live?

Personally, I feel saddened by the whole thing. I know James did a bad thing (really bad thing), but I felt a loss by watching him die. Maybe I'm just a sympathetic guy, but I felt sorry for James. I really pitied him. Should I feel that way if suicide is part of human nature?

What do you think?

[Night10194]

Time for a long, spoiler filled post with my crazy ideas on SH2! If you haven't played it yet, don't read this...!

Also, this assumes the "leave" ending, as I believe that one's the true victory.

Anyhow, we will begin with the nightmarish pyramid heads, and what the hell they are. Does anyone remember the pictures in Toluca prison? Of the pyramid-head in the hanging yard? Or the way the pyramid heads kill themselves when James defeats them? Think about it...perhaps it's their head now, but that pyramid might've originally been some kind of helmet worn by executioners. This is an odd stretch, but it also makes sense. If we accept the theory that all of the monsters are created by memories, hatreds, etc, and that James sees monster that look like twisted, deformed, mutilated, insane, disgusting humans (representations of his aversion to the appearance of his diseased wife), yet can defeat all of them relatively easily...it would make sense that the monsters he can't hurt are the ones he didn't make. Also, these things seem assigned to punish him. They kill Maria, who he very much wishes to protect, multiple times, they try to execute him...and they were also seen by Walter Sullivan, a murderer who committed suicide to avoid their wrath. Perhaps they are the town's dark, twisted idea of torturers and executioners? I know it's an odd theory, but it seems to work.

Maria is the most tragic character in the story. Again, an odd theory, but remember who she is. She's born of James's wish for what he wished Mary had been all the time, someone beautiful, vibrant, and attracted to him. She's what he wanted, or the town's version of it. Which also explains her appearance. She's just like Mary, but very slightly differant (hair and clothes) as a physical representation of what she is. Anyhow, onto why she's so tragic. She is, for all intents and purposes, a person. She seems to be, at least. She has firm expectations of what James is supposed to mean to her, too. He's supposed to accept her, love her, protect her, and leave this Silent Hill place with her, to be happy (if only for the short term) with her. Instead, he realizes what she is and casts her away, accepting responsibility for his crime of killing Mary and trying to repent and redeem himself. But what about Maria? As I said, she's a person now, who had no choice to be created like this, and who is killed, tortured, strung along, and eventually cast aside by the man who was supposed to take her to love and protect, and instead destroys her. I think this is why she attacks him in the end. She's unable to let him leave without her, she NEEDS him now. It's a desperate act to try to fulfill what she thought was her fate, to force the hand of who she thought would become her lover, or to kill them both in the process.

As you can see, I obviously felt rather bad for Maria, but there was no other way. Accepting her would've been denying his crimes, and James has also learned better than to bargain with the forces in Silent Hill by now, realizing they mean nothing but temptation and eventual self destruction (look at Angela and Eddie). This is why James survives...he realizes that he has to take responsibility and move on. Angela runs away in her own way, killing herself. Eddie claims the world is at fault and has it coming, and tries to attack it in desperation, losing a shooting match with James as a result. James, though, sees the town for what it really is ("I understand now...") and realizes he must leave, though he is given a chance to make peace with the dead first. He does so, finally admitting the truth to himself and Mary, and finding through it it isn't really the whole truth, that he can infact be redeemed, and that she wants him to be. Thus, he fulfills her wish to take care of and protect Laura as a last favor, and goes on, leaving this town before it and its false promises destroy him like it did Eddie and Angela.

Also, as with regards to James being "whiney". The man is in horrible pain mentally, reconciling his own crime, forced to admit it, terrified by the abberations of flesh and bone contantly trying to rip him to shreds, unsure of his own sanity, and trapped in a literal Silent Hell, kept going only by what seemingly proves somewhat of a false hope. If he weren't hesitant and tortured-sounding, I'd be pretty damned diappointed. Try to put yourself in the character's shoes before accusing them of being whiney sissies or things. I'm not even sure I could take his predicament at all, myself.

On a really odd and creepy side note, James looks frighteningly like me...

[Night10194]

About James and the suicide. I understand how he feels, in a way. In his case, I don't believe he feels he's killing himself to escape, I think he wants to kill himself to punish himself for his crime. He wants to execute himself for his own fault, deciding he can't possibly redeem as awful a crime as he has comitted. Still, I can't say I believe it to be the right way. Angela and Eddie, as I tried to show, are foils for James, showing how some people dodge blame and refuse redemption for their "crimes". James is the one standing in the middle of attacking the world and blaming it like Eddie, or running from it all and ending his life like Angela. He has a choice to do so, or to find his way and survive, to live and redeem himself. Perhaps it's just the personal disgust I feel at the idea of suicide, but I believe James is supposed to reject it.

Did any of that make sense?

[Night10194]

SPOILER!

Revelation about Maria and why she becomes a demon. Think on it...Silent Hill feeds on the perceptions of the person involved, creating monsters and things based on their mind, right? Well, when James realizes Maria is created by the town, and that she's a false Mary. Well, everything else the town created was a demon, right? So naturally, Maria changes into one as well once he realizes the situation...God, that's awful for her.

[Eccles]

But why does she turn into a big floaty woman in a box!?

It still makes no sense

[Firedrake]

But why does she turn into a big floaty woman in a box!?

It still makes no senseBecause in the endings were you face Maria rather than Mary, well, Maria's pissed off. James confesses his sins and accepts them, but Maria doesn't see it that way, because she feels that James is still lying (i.e. Protecting Mary, the representation of what James wanted in Maria rather than what he actually had).
As for when you face Mary, James finally sees the truth and realises that he wasn't facing reality. His illusions made him kill Mary, because she wasn't what he wanted. He was too scared to face the truth. The shock is too great for him so he commits suicide. I feel that the In Water ending is the best, myself.

As for the reason behind her shape when she transforms into a daemon:
She looks like the hanged men that Pyramid Heads have. Whether it's Mary or Maria, both of them are tortured by the town. It seems to me that it was a bizzarre competitive situation were either Mary or Maria would be free, and that depended on James' judgement. Obviously, the loser gets pissed, reveals her true tortured form that the town caused and fights back.

[Eccles]

oh I understand WHY she turns into a floaty woman in a box...
Its just WHY a floaty woman in a box? Why not something like the Goddess in SH1?

(As for the guy shot in the appartment being shot by Eddie, I'll have to challenge that one, since Eddie shot the guy in the knee. He tells you in the meat locker "He'll have a hard time playing football on that knee now!")

[StarZander]

I thought about that too, about her hanging upside down and stuff. The tarot card The Hanged Man (which is one of the cards used in SH3 to open to final door) is a card of a man hanging upside down. Although the hanged man is on a cross, Mary's "cross" could be her hospital bed perhaps. If you look at it, it resembles a metal hospital bed, without a matrass(spelling?) and such.

Quoting from a site with a description of its meaning:

"The Hanged Man often refers to taking time out for spiritual searching, perhaps using "unconventional means" of searching. It involves changing directions or perspectives. There is an element of waiting involved and sometimes sacrifice. It can indicate a Rite of Passage, an initiation or a transition. The card has sometimes been called the card of the Dying God. The Hanged Man means listening to your inner self, sometimes even when it seems to go against logic. It means looking at things in new and different ways. It also indicates unconventional behavior. It is a time of being alone often and reflects the need to withdraw from time to time in order to recharge or regroup your inner energies."

Now, I see several similarities here, with SH2. (Also they had several references to hanged men in the game) I don't have time to interpret all of it at this moment, but maybe you can to it for me. But the card being the card of the Dying God, could be referring to remains of Samael's power perhaps? He is dying, since the encounter with Harry, but he linguers in Silent Hill still.

There was talk of the Hanged Man card also had alot of connections with water. Don't see any connections with the game here, except for maybe the lake, and the In Water ending.

"Astrologically, the Hanged Man is connected to the planet Neptune, and there are some obvious and clear connections between the two. Some of the negative traits of Neptune do not normally apply to the Hanged Man, however. The color of the Hanged Man is blue, the musical note is G sharp, the Hebrew letter is Mem, meaning water or waters (such as an ocean). The Qabalistic Intelligence of the Hanged Man is Stable Intelligence. (This really seems like a strange choice to me. I would not characterize the Hanged Man as stable at all.) Other attributions of the Hanged Man are the concepts of reversal and the suspended mind. The Esoteric Title is the Spirit of the Mighty Waters. The Hanged Man is on the 23rd path of the Tree of Life, between Hod and Geburah. Robert Wang calls this card the path of baptism into the Maternal Water. He also says that it is a path of "eternally unresolved possibilities. It is openness without beginning or end."

Neptune is often the great dissolver; Neptune is also sometimes the planet of transcendental ecstasy, and that fits as well. Neptune rules the sign of Pisces (Moon card), and I can see the connections between the Moon and the Hanged Man. The Hebrew word that corresponds to the Tree of Life path that the Hanged Man is on, is Mem, meaning water or waters. I think that both Neptune and the Hanged Man are each more closely related to Mem, water, than they are to each other, but the entire connection seems to work quite well here."


I don't recall the other tarot cards that were used in SH3, except for the priestess. Could someone check up on these?

[Firedrake]

oh I understand WHY she turns into a floaty woman in a box...
Its just WHY a floaty woman in a box? Why not something like the Goddess in SH1?
As for the reason behind her shape when she transforms into a daemon:
She looks like the hanged men that Pyramid Heads have. Whether it's Mary or Maria, both of them are tortured by the town. It seems to me that it was a bizzarre competitive situation were either Mary or Maria would be free, and that depended on James' judgement. Obviously, the loser gets pissed, reveals her true tortured form that the town caused and fights back.

[Night10194]

Why the floaty women in the box? I know that, it's easy.

Mary was bedridden, right? She was tied to her bed, looked like a monster (or felt like one), as she told James. It was a representation of all of the "demonic" aspects of Mary. She's also trying to drag James with her, keep him tied to her torture.

In the case of Maria, she's a monster now, and tied to the torment she's suffering forever because James tossed her aside. Thus, she's tied to the torture bed, and is trying to take James down with her, as Mary would be if he found Mary to be the demon.

[Eccles]

There's been somewhat of a change of plan with my OST.

Rather than using "Papa Roach - Last resort" as the backing music, I instead intend to use "Marilyn Manson - Suicide is painless" since that fits the games much more (and isnt suck-rock like Papa Roach)

[Never Winter Knight]

Ive heard a lot of good things about this game as soon as I get the cash I think im gonna go buy it.

[Night10194]

A prudent plan.

[StarZander]

Nice to feel ignored.

[Eccles]

so there's been a change of plan with the AMV Im doing.

One will be set to Marilyn Manson - Suicide is painless.

Dunno about the other one (or if I even want to do one) but you never know...

[NoWave]

Alright, try this for a theory.

NOTE: I have only played SH1 from the series. I have read enough spoiler's, plot summary's and theories to know the story of 2. I have no idea where 3 fits in.

I have always thought that the second game occurs before the first

Alright, I'll try and arrange my theory into chronological order.

7 years before the series:

The spirit of Samael is put into the body of Alessa.

In order to counteract it awakening immediately Dahlia Gillespie set's fire to the hospital, burning Alessa alive. The spirit of Samael splits in two and becomes stuck in Harry's daughter, who was getting born in the hospital.

An enemy of the cult (the child's real mother perhaps?) leaves the baby by the roadside for Harry to find.

Harry and his wife find and raise the baby, naming her Cheryl.

Alessa should die from her wounds but is kept alive but comatose by the half spirit of Samael. Lisa is assigned to care for her.

3 days (estimate) before SH1

Lisa is killed by the cult after trying to leave. Alessa is vaguely aware while comatose and has come to think of Lisa as her friend. She senses the death of Lisa and is awakened into conciousness.

As soon as Alessa becomes conscious, she becomes aware of the horrific pain of her wounds. The presence of half of the dark gods powers gives her incredible powers and in the instant of consciousness she rains destruction on the town inhabitants. She spares her Mother and Kaufmann. Her mother was probably portected magically, as for Kaufmann, I have no idea why he was saved. This explains the absence of people in town, the blood and the crack's in the road.

At this point all contact to and from Silent Hill is cut.

At some point over the next few days.

The event's of game 2 take place. These are not the actions of Samael, but rather actions of Alessa. Alessa wants to help people like James who refuse to admit what they have done. She uses the Dark gods power's to invent scenario's when they will admit what has occured. However, because of the evilness of the Dark god's power the scenarios are particularly horrific.

The evening before the day of the first game.

The neighbouring town recognises that all communications with Silent Hill have been cut. They dispatch Cybil Shephard to investigate. She arrives in Silent Hill marginally before Harry does (this is important)

Harry and Cheryl are made to crash by Alessa or Samael manifesting as Alessa (this is hard to tell, I'll explain why)

The first game

Once Harry and Cheryl arrive at Silent Hill Samael is in control of his power's rather than Alessa, who's spirit is cast into the nightmare world (where harry occasionally sees her) Samael didn't take any action before this point because all he was concerned with was getting his other half back.

Once Harry arrived Samael sealed off the exit's (there is an important difference in the way Alessa and Samael use their powers Alessa makes rifts in the ground whereas Samael uses the more Alien concept of walls of nothingness. Cybil arrived a few second before Harry which is how she got in.

It's hard to tell who made Harry crashed because it's hard to tell whether Samael was in control when Harry was on the outskirts of town. If he had been then why was Cybil allowed to arrive.

I also think that Alessa tries to help Harry throughout the first game, leaving the books open and writing on the walls in the nightmare world.
When the game is over Samael is dispatched, Alessa is allowed to die and Cheryl is born again without Samael within her.

That's my idea of what went on in the game.

CONS:

It makes a number of assumptions.

1. That Alessa was a good person and would use her power to help others, as she does in SH2

2. That Samael would allow her to do so while he waited for Harry to arrive.

I can't prove either of these, but I believe them.

This theory could be disputed when I play or research 3.

[Eccles]

<_<
>_>
http://home.comcast.net/~andydthorley/paradise.jpg
BANG!

Closing shot to my Silent Hill AMV

[StarZander]

Hey, Eccles, how's Adobe Premiere working out for ya?

[Eccles]

As our current convo is proving...

not very u,u

[Shoeless joe]

He was smashed into the TV?

Looks like a gunshot wound to meAnd you are correct. Shot from behind apparently. Most likely from Eddie.
AN omen of things to come? Or maybe it's actually a manifestation of James' desire of self-destruction.

I dunno about the conotation of the JAmes look-alike in the game but apparently, according to the same site w/ the pic, the guys at Konami reused the James model so that they didn't have to create a new one form scratch. They figured that they'd get with it since nobody there thought that some bored fan would hack the system for different screenshots. Man, even the guys at Konami look for shortcuts. Makes you think though ...

[StanTuna, Vaporwaremonger]

I'm learning to play guitar.


Guess which song I'm teching myself to play.

[Eccles]

I'm learning to play guitar.
Guess which song I'm teching myself to play.
Same one as me and chris and Candii

^_^

[ifirit]

Silent Hill: Play Novel, Silent Hill 1 & 3 Spoilers

If we knew just whose name was written on the tombstone, we might know more (i.e. perhaps it was Alessa's grave).

The name on the tombstone is given away at the end of Cybil's scenario in the Silent Hill: Play Novel. I won't say it just yet, as I don't understand the whole story.

Alessa is not dead. She is said to be clearly alive in the events of Silent Hill in the Silent Hill: Play Novel. Also, if you notice, the girl in the opening movie to Silent Hill is clearly burned and bandaged, yet she does not look like a seven-year-old girl. If you say she died at age seven in the fire, then why show a teenaged Alessa in both the intro and throughout the game?

Also, many people seem to be confusing the person on the bed as Alessa during the "Drawing Power Conversation." You'll notice that Dahlia (I've been spelling her name wrong :oops: ) says, "Everything is going according to plan, sheltered in the womb." The person on the bed is then clearly a pregant woman.

Then a doctor follows, "But, it's not done yet, half the soul is lost. That is why the seed lies dormant." Combine this with the "Mommy Dearest" conversation in the Gillespie residence and you get: "Why didn't I see it before. There's no reason to wait. Herein lies the mother's womb, containing the power to create life. I could have done it all myself." This suggests that Dahlia gave birth to Cheryl (but the father is unknown). So then the pregant woman in the room opposite to Alessa's had to be Alessa's mother, not Alessa herself.

This is reinforced in SH3 during Vincent's conversation in the Alternate Office Building, combined with Heather's feelings about her real name in the Normal Ending. Also, think about Ira Levin's novel, "Rosemary's Baby." The cult next door used an unwilling mother to birth the devil, their "god." Ira Levin being a major influence on the game (Levin St.).

[ifirit]

For those who want to know the name on the tombstone, I'll give you a puzzle to figure it out.

1) Ocean

2) Because

3) Hive

4) Sight

5) ...Levi Ate Her

[Eccles]

I dont get it

(PS: change of tune again. I think I'll have to make more than one ^^; )

[ifirit]

Wanna hint?

I purposely made it confusing, but it's not that hard.

[StarZander]

yes, hint please.

[Shoeless joe]

For those who want to know the name on the tombstone, I'll give you a puzzle to figure it out.

1) Ocean

2) Because

3) Hive

4) Sight

5) ...Levi Ate Her

I got it! It's... It's... Jud Neilson!!!! :)

[ifirit]

The clues are in order.

[Eccles]

doesnt mean anything.

[ifirit]

Silent Hill: Play Novel Spoilers

Does it?

Alright, for those who don't like to think, here's the answer:

Each clue was actually a word association that then represented a letter.

1) Ocean :arrow: Sea :arrow: C
2) Because :arrow: Why :arrow: Y
3) Hive :arrow: Bee :arrow: B
4) Sight :arrow: Eye :arrow: I
5) ...Levi Ate Her :arrow: E...lev...at...or :arrow: elevator, the missing part being the "L"

What's that spell?

Also, like the coloring book in the opening movie, the tombstone will change to some mixmash of letters after you beat it once.

[Doulifée]

i graduate that with a hard riddle difficulty level ifrit........

you work for the "there was a hole there company" ?

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 2 Spoiler

I always thought that had more of a metaphorical meaning rather than acting as a puzzle or riddle. Plus, if my memory is correct, wasn't the glass covered in newspaper?

Usually, a hole represents a void or an empty space. By saying that it is gone now, infers one of two things. Either the void was filled or the void was covered. How you look at it can represent a certain philosophy on the matter.

By taking the side that a hole can be filled, you might believe that problems can be fixed and that just because you lose something or are missing something doesn't mean it's gone forever. So, you might think that James actually does get to be with Mary again and that he can be forgiven for his crimes.

Or by taking the side that the hole is only covered up, you might believe that somethings can't be fixed, that you're stuck with the consequences and that the only way to cope is to block out the pain. Though it is the more pessimistic (sp?) approach, it may have a deeper meaning for James, since he starts off denying his wife's murder.

Still, from either position, there are still multiple roads you can take to read into more. Though I try to have a more optimistic approach in life, I tend to pick the covering-up philosophy in James' case.

[StarZander]

Hmph, I really don't like being ignored. Nobody commented my theories... :cry:

[Night10194]

Me neither, Starzander...but that doesn't mean they didn't read 'em. Cheer up, friend. :)

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 2 & 3 Spoilers

I thought about that too, about her hanging upside down and stuff. The tarot card The Hanged Man (which is one of the cards used in SH3 to open to final door) is a card of a man hanging upside down. Although the hanged man is on a cross, Mary's "cross" could be her hospital bed perhaps. If you look at it, it resembles a metal hospital bed, without a matrass(spelling?) and such.

Quoting from a site with a description of its meaning:

"The Hanged Man often refers to taking time out for spiritual searching, perhaps using "unconventional means" of searching. It involves changing directions or perspectives. There is an element of waiting involved and sometimes sacrifice. It can indicate a Rite of Passage, an initiation or a transition. The card has sometimes been called the card of the Dying God. The Hanged Man means listening to your inner self, sometimes even when it seems to go against logic. It means looking at things in new and different ways. It also indicates unconventional behavior. It is a time of being alone often and reflects the need to withdraw from time to time in order to recharge or regroup your inner energies."

This is offering some very good insight into the meaning of Silent Hill 3. I mean, you've gotta admit the plot to the sequel was very easy to follow, but it was hard to tell if there were any deeper connections than the obvious. Yet, looking at the relevance of the "Hanged Man" card, I can make some better theories and connections.

Silent Hill 3 was the only game to seriously look at religion from the follower's perspective and not a by-standers or historian's. The focus just seems to be about Claudia's search for love, since it seems she was not shown much. Her only real source of love, affection or whatever you want to call it came from the seven-year-old Alessa. Claudia just wants her back, sort of the same way Laura wants Mary back.

Though I can see some ties with SH2, I think the tarot card is more relevant to the plot or philosophy of SH3. Once I sort everything out, I'll report my findings.

Now, I see several similarities here, with SH2. (Also they had several references to hanged men in the game) I don't have time to interpret all of it at this moment, but maybe you can to it for me. But the card being the card of the Dying God, could be referring to remains of Samael's power perhaps? He is dying, since the encounter with Harry, but he linguers in Silent Hill still.

I don't think the "Dying God" part refers directly to Samael, but more towards the Older Gods mentioned in the "Lost Memories," "Crimson Book" and the various files around the town. Remember, there are other gods like Lobsel Vith, the yellow god and Xuchilbara, the red god. ("God created beings to lead people in obidience to Her... many gods and angels.")

You're also right about the many references to hangings in SH2, so I understand the idea of being upside-down. Yet, the references all have the person hung right-side up. Maybe a better explanation is the skewering form of execution. Remember how Maria dies the last time before the end? She is hung upside-down in the "skewering cage" (not sure what else to call it) and then speared by one of the Pyramid Heads, a formal execution in the Toluca Prison. And, when you fight the demon form of Maria, she is still in that same cage and position. Also, if you notice after the Pyramid Head fight, there is no body or sign of Maria's death.

I believe that there is some significance of the bed as Maria's final form, seeing as how it was Mary's murder site. Yet, I don't see it as the only source of influence. Though, we can tell the art designer's were trying to pick a scary design for the final boss, maybe they also played on some hidden fears in James. Maybe James had an aversion to things that were hung upside down. Maybe he was afraid of bugs, which could explain the use of swarms and the scorpin-like tail. Maybe James had some experience with the scewering form of excusion, causing an emotional scar that Maria exploited. I'm not saying that James was executed, even in that manner, but that maybe he had some contact with it in the past and it manifeasted here.

Wait! I just thought of something. Since I think Maria's final form looks like a form of execution performed in the Toluca Prison, Maria's form may represent the idea of being executed. Mary had been sick for a long time and towards the end had accepted that fact that she was going to die. So, she was just waiting for death. Then, James took her life in a short, but exection-like manner. (Note that he tucks her in, fluffs her pillow, and kisses her on the forehead before he smothers her.) It causes him a lot of pain later that he did this and especially so in the hotel. By taking the form of being executed, not only earlier in the game, Maria is trying to exploit his pain about being a murderer. She was just conveying the thing he regretted most.

There was talk of the Hanged Man card also had alot of connections with water. Don't see any connections with the game here, except for maybe the lake, and the In Water ending.

"Astrologically, the Hanged Man is connected to the planet Neptune, and there are some obvious and clear connections between the two. Some of the negative traits of Neptune do not normally apply to the Hanged Man, however. The color of the Hanged Man is blue, the musical note is G sharp, the Hebrew letter is Mem, meaning water or waters (such as an ocean). The Qabalistic Intelligence of the Hanged Man is Stable Intelligence. (This really seems like a strange choice to me. I would not characterize the Hanged Man as stable at all.) Other attributions of the Hanged Man are the concepts of reversal and the suspended mind. The Esoteric Title is the Spirit of the Mighty Waters. The Hanged Man is on the 23rd path of the Tree of Life, between Hod and Geburah. Robert Wang calls this card the path of baptism into the Maternal Water. He also says that it is a path of "eternally unresolved possibilities. It is openness without beginning or end."

Neptune is often the great dissolver; Neptune is also sometimes the planet of transcendental ecstasy, and that fits as well. Neptune rules the sign of Pisces (Moon card), and I can see the connections between the Moon and the Hanged Man. The Hebrew word that corresponds to the Tree of Life path that the Hanged Man is on, is Mem, meaning water or waters. I think that both Neptune and the Hanged Man are each more closely related to Mem, water, than they are to each other, but the entire connection seems to work quite well here."

Another interesting connection to water: the one reference to Metratron I was able find related to Tarot about the Ace of Cups, which represents a cup that flowed a fountain of water, similar to the "Holy Grail."

I don't recall the other tarot cards that were used in SH3, except for the priestess. Could someone check up on these?

The other four cards were the "Priestess," the "Fool," the "Eye of Night," and the "Moon" cards. The numbers on the cards may also have some significance. They are II, 0, XXII, and XVIII respectively. The number for the Hanged Man is XII.

[StarZander]

I love you, ifrit. :D

I checked up on the Eye of Night tarot card, since it doesn't really exist in any tarot deck of cards. But the only thing I could find, was a book called "The Eye of Night", where the main character is a female magician. I will quote some stuff from a review:

The Troubles coming down from the North threaten to engulf the world in chaos. Even time and reason seem frayed to the breaking point. Jereth, disillusioned ex-priest of the Rising God and sole survivor of a shipwreck, finds his own life the perfect mirror of a world spiralling toward catastrophe. He has nothing; he has nowhere to go. But then one night he meets two mysterious women, a prophet and a fool, each with her own secrets. They involve him in a quest to save the world from death by traveling into the heart of the Troubles, bearing a talisman of night. He follows them without really understanding their quest – for their dark vision gives him his first glimpse of hope. But what can three penniless vagabonds, unarmed and unprepared, do about forces that threaten to crack the world?


Magic is alive in the world but it has insignificant affect on the troubles in the North. Kingdoms are at war with one another; plagues sweep the land; and earthquakes destroy whole cities. The weather plays havoc on the crops; drought is common; and the cattle dies from extreme thirst. The people in the North are traveling but that will do them no good because the troubles accompany them southward.

Three people on a quest are moving against the trend by heading northward. The mystic Hwyn, the beautiful simpleton Trenara, and the former priest Jereth follow the instructions of the Sky-Raven's Egg. Hwyn knows that the Eye of the North is readying itself to give birth and that it could mean the death of civilization or something quite wondrous.

THE EYE OF NIGHT is a beautiful epic fantasy starring three protagonists chosen by the gods to play a pivotal role in the rebirth of a world. Readers will be surprised to realize what these roles will be but it is all tied together in a way that makes sense. This is Pauline J. Alama's first novel but with the talent she displays with this strong tale, the audience will realize there will be more forthcoming. Just having patience to wait will prove nerve wracking.

And then some things about the main character and her main adversary:

Inner Struggle Yes
Plotlet: - search for identity/new understanding - coping with mental/magical powers

Sound like Heather?

Main Adversary
Identity: - natural phenomena - Male

Hmm...

I also found it mentioned here (http://www.englishqabalah.com/book_of_numbers.asp), if you search for eye of night there. Don't know what it means though. But I think the Qabalah is the book used to inerpret the tarot cards, but it says here Book of Numbers.

Perhaps the locations of the five cards in SH3 has some meaning. I will quote from a faq, the location and description of the different cards, that you could read in your inventory:

Item Name: "Moon" Tarot Card
Location: On the table in the Library of the Church, 1F.
Description: Found this in the archives. I don't think it's an expecially good card.

Item Name: "High Priestess" Tarot Card
Location: On the bed in Claudia's room in the Church, BF.
Description: Didn't this card mean something like "Genuine Belief"?

Item Name: "Hanged Man" Tarot Card
Location: On the gurney in the morgue in the Church, BF.
Description: This was in that morgue-ish place. It's such a pitiful card.

Item Name: "Fool" Tarot Card
Location: Inside the book in the hospital room in the south hallway on BF.
Description: This was in my old room... in a hospital room. What did this one mean again?

Item Name: "Eye of Night" Tarot Card
Location: On the ledge behind the altar in the Chappel on 1F, Church.
Description: Found this in the chapel. Is this a real tarot card, though?

There. Can you make something out of this?

[Night10194]

Hmmm...the idea of the execution of Maria/Mary is interesting. Very interesting. After all, remember how you end the battle? James taking one last shot/whatever to finish off Maria/Mary? I'm not exactly sure how that fits in, but especially with execution in mind, finishing the battle execution style would seem to have some significance.

WAIT! If it's Mary, than he's doing what he did before. She is down, she was causing him great pain, he wants her to be gone for good...so he finishes her off AGAIN. As Maria says "You killed Mary again?". Maybe that's what Silent Hill has been trying to get him to do, if it can't kill him. It's making him re-commit his crime, but accept it this time and leave with his 'reward', Maria. Notice how she coughs at the end? Perhaps the town is going to repeat the whole cycle again, with Maria this time...?

If it's Maria, he has decided to cast her off. He doesn't want to leave it to doubt whether or not he's destroyed her, he wants her dead and gone so he can move on. That's why he has to kill her and make certain of it: He wants to destroy the town's influence on him the same way he tried to sever his tie to Mary when she caused him pain. Only, this time, it more represents a rejection and a severing of a tie that didn't really exist yet. A rejection of everything the town brought out in him, so that he can move on.

I dunno, that's a bit odd, the Maria part...but I think that Mary idea is pretty solid.

[Sentora]

Well so far I've seen all my questions answered but one: Does the radio have some importance as well other than a radar? There was that freaky Trick or treat show in the elevator in part two and it's been in all three games...

[Eccles]

Not really, man...

[M@]

I didn't like the way the radio was downplayed in the third instalment, myself. Whereas I never really regarded it as key a gameplay feature as some, I still found the radio a neat and original little radar. I hope they don't have, uh, "music" play each time an enemy of sorts is near in 4, like in 3.

That said, they downplayed the idea of using the town itself as a "world map" in the 3rd game, which is probably where the radio was the most useful – when surrounded in fog where you couldn't see your adversaries, so had to listen out for them. That has little use when you’re in a small room and can see damn near everything. Would have been nice in longer corridors, mind, like those in Brookhaven Hospital. From what I’ve read though, it doesn't look like they'll be using that technique again.

[RichardKimble]

Hmmm...the idea of the execution of Maria/Mary is interesting. Very interesting. After all, remember how you end the battle? James taking one last shot/whatever to finish off Maria/Mary? I'm not exactly sure how that fits in, but especially with execution in mind, finishing the battle execution style would seem to have some significance.

WAIT! If it's Mary, than he's doing what he did before. She is down, she was causing him great pain, he wants her to be gone for good...so he finishes her off AGAIN. As Maria says "You killed Mary again?". Maybe that's what Silent Hill has been trying to get him to do, if it can't kill him. It's making him re-commit his crime, but accept it this time and leave with his 'reward', Maria. Notice how she coughs at the end? Perhaps the town is going to repeat the whole cycle again, with Maria this time...?

If it's Maria, he has decided to cast her off. He doesn't want to leave it to doubt whether or not he's destroyed her, he wants her dead and gone so he can move on. That's why he has to kill her and make certain of it: He wants to destroy the town's influence on him the same way he tried to sever his tie to Mary when she caused him pain. Only, this time, it more represents a rejection and a severing of a tie that didn't really exist yet. A rejection of everything the town brought out in him, so that he can move on.

I dunno, that's a bit odd, the Maria part...but I think that Mary idea is pretty solid.

Well, I'm seeing the world of Silent Hill 2 as something of a pergutory for James. Not in the Christian sense, but more in the sense as it was somewhat presented in the Asian movie The Eye. The belief that plays a major part in that movie is that people who commit suicide stay on Earth as spirits who constantly repeat the act until they come to grips with what they've done.

We know James commits suicide in one of the endings. However, it's ambiguous whether it happens before or after the events of SH 2 since the letter James is supposed to get after Mary dies is being read over the ending. It's possible that James suffered miserably from guilt and that letter, filled with some emotional stuff, was delivered to him and pushed him over the edge. Not saying it's right. Just my thoughts on it.

So, we plug this in to everything. My idea is all the dark, evil stuff in Silent Hill 2 is James' projection. Well, not all of it. Some of it is other people's, but I'll get to that in a moment. All right, so they're a projection of his mind. This includes the Pyramid men and Maria, all though Maria may be a demon, but again, we'll get to that. In the final confrontation with the Pyramid Men, James says he needed them to punish him for his sins. What do they do besides skewer him and take swipes at him with swords so big, Cloud couldn't even hold one? They execute Maria. A few times, really. While the Pyramid Men may not be a direct representation of James' dark side, he does permit them to do what they do, if subconsciously.

So, he's constantly living out the torture of what he's done through Maria, only it's an act separate from himself because he hasn't come to grips with he's done yet. I believe the final showdown with Maria is something of James coming full arc, confronting the ugly thing he's done (and yeah, Maria isn't exactly a pretty final boss), and moving on. She is in an execution cage because this is James realizing that this is him who has done the crime and his final bullet is something of reaching a finality. While the fight with the Pyramid heads may have somewhat served that need, he still is clinging to Maria a bit (He says "Leave her the hell alone!") and may need that last push.

Maria could be a demon pushing trying to drag James to a hell of some sorts. The final scene with Angela sort of throws in the possibility of the existance of hell since she now always sees flames. In the movie What Dreams May Come (I know, more making references to religious stuff in movies. I should probably read a book or something), a big part of the movie is one the characters committing suicide, and that person sort of building walls around herself, not coming to grips with her actions, and not even recognizing the person she should recognize the most. Angela fits ALL of that (Which is why I think they added the odd part with her mistaking James as her mother). So, with that in mind, Maria may be a separate entity trying to drag James into the flames, but I doubt it. Most of the things in SH 2 (or the entire SH series, for that matter) are very mental in origin. I think Maria is seen getting executed instead of Mary because James subconsciously doesn't feel he deserves to see Mary and is giving this sin-tainted replacement (notice at the end she looks exactly like Mary, but is still Maria. Completely getting rid of Maria is James turning the last screw).

So what are these OTHER characters doing here? Well, maybe they all died in Silent Hill on the same day? Note in the Catacombs, there are newspapers with "today's date" on it. It has flaws, considering that it's quite a coincidence three murderers died on the same day in the same town, but it may be just a Twilight Zone "it makes the plot work" kind of coincidence. Maybe they've been there for awhile and are constantly repeating their sins and simply reseting each time. However, if that's the case, then I question the linearity and the apparant finality of their actions. When James kills Eddy, it doesn't seem like Eddy's going to just reset and start again, does it?

Anyway, so since they're all in their own personal pergatories, they're fighting monsters of their own creation. Eddy's possibly fighting very human-like monsters that taunt him (though I can't be sure because he kills all of them and leaves them either REALLY bloody or in a place where you can't see the body). Angela is being chased by the bedman, because well, we all know what her daddy did to her. Sometimes these worlds cross and James sees Eddy's and Angela's monsters. Laura is a loose end, I admit. She doesn't seem to be bothered by anything in Silent Hill. She feels she has enough time to calmly draw murals onto the walls of Silent Hill, for crying out loud! She could be there because she's been a complete and total brat to everyone. She's not exactly the nicest kid in the world. However, she may also be some kind of "tough love" help for James, pushing him into realizing all the things he can't realize himself. She locks James in the room with all the caged monsters and he fights a caged Maria later and she's the one who indirectly points out the bad things in his relationship with Mary. Of course, still, locking a guy in a room with three REALLY creepy monsters just ain't right no matter what the reason, ya' know?

Anyway, that's about all I have on the subject. Hope you enjoyed reading. My only big question is what is the significance of Walter Sullivan? He's mentioned very prominantly a couple times and even has his own tombstone in the room before the battle with Eddy. If it's been covered in this thread, sorry, I'm an idiot.

Oh, and I do not by any means feel I'm completely right. With something like Silent Hill 2, it's to no benefit for one to say there's a be-all and end-all explination. Just some thoughts.

Oh, and a quicky theory about Silent Hill 3. I'm thinking the monsters may be a representation of the 7 deadly sins (AGAIN with the stuff learned from movies!). Since it's established at the end by Vincent that the dark world is all Claudia's decoration, and Claudia sees the world full of sin, the monsters could be a reflection on sin. The monster Heather first encounters could be greed with all the extremeties except the legs being mouths, the little things first encountered in the malls sloth with only having a giant mouth and tiny legs, the "cancers" being gluttony, the pendulums or the blademen being wraith, and the nurses being pride (They do seem to have makeup on, which is a difference from other SH nurses). Of course, I'm missing a couple, but it's a rather incomplete and flimsy theory. Just a thought, really.

Oh, hi, by the way. I lurk a lot, but I always love a good Silent Hill discussion.

EDIT: Fixed some typos, though there may be still plenty of misspellings since I'm not that great at spelling.

[DJ-Omega]

Hi all I just discovered this thread and I wanted to share some theories I heard. I'm going to be lazy and not read the entire thread so if anyone covered this previously sorry. Also I lurk a lot so please excuse my noob posting skills. Oh BTW, RichardKimble, please don't get mad at me for taking apart your message and expressing my theories. You were on the last page and you looked like you had a lot of good points and some I could argue. Nothing personal, I just liked your post :D

Anyways

Well, I'm seeing the world of Silent Hill 2 as something of a pergutory for James. Not in the Christian sense, but more in the sense as it was somewhat presented in the Asian movie The Eye. The belief that plays a major part in that movie is that people who commit suicide stay on Earth as spirits who constantly repeat the act until they come to grips with what they've done. We know James commits suicide in one of the endings. However, it's ambiguous whether it happens before or after the events of SH 2 since the letter James is supposed to get after Mary dies is being read over the ending. It's possible that James suffered miserably from guilt and that letter, filled with some emotional stuff, was delivered to him and pushed him over the edge. Not saying it's right. Just my thoughts on it.

I agree with you on this theory because if I understand you right his silent hill experience could have happened while he was dying like the bad ending in Silent hill 1.

So, we plug this in to everything. My idea is all the dark, evil stuff in Silent Hill 2 is James' projection. Well, not all of it. Some of it is other people's, but I'll get to that in a moment. All right, so they're a projection of his mind. This includes the Pyramid men and Maria, all though Maria may be a demon, but again, we'll get to that. In the final confrontation with the Pyramid Men, James says he needed them to punish him for his sins. What do they do besides skewer him and take swipes at him with swords so big, Cloud couldn't even hold one? They execute Maria. A few times, really. While the Pyramid Men may not be a direct representation of James' dark side, he does permit them to do what they do, if subconsciously.

I also agree with this because if you noticed all of the monsters of Silent hill represent some kind of symbolic message about the town or person. The red pyramid head is constantly killing maria representing James killing his Mary. The Leg Mannequins represent james sexual tension and frustration. Before you start laughing hear me out. When Mary became ill she became a lifeless and ridden body to james. The leg mannequins are composed of all legs and are wearing clothes similar to mary's. Also maria's tempting james and the rape scene with pyramid head and the mannequins reinforce this and the fact that pyramid head is a part of james persona. The Caged Prisoner Grille Demon could represent two things, james's own emotional prison that he cannot escape or Mary's death bed. The cage is a symbol of pain and torture which james along with everyone except for Laura (which I will get to later) are experiencing. Or for theory two, the frame looks like a sadistic representation of Mary's death bed. Even maria is in the cage at the end and when she is defeated she falls to the ground and resumes the role of mary and asks james to put her out of her misery. If you take close notice to the nurses in this Silent hill the you can see that they are the only nurses wear mini-skirts thus reinforcing james's own lust, and his sexual frustration and tension.


So, he's constantly living out the torture of what he's done through Maria, only it's an act separate from himself because he hasn't come to grips with he's done yet. I believe the final showdown with Maria is something of James coming full arc, confronting the ugly thing he's done (and yeah, Maria isn't exactly a pretty final boss), and moving on. She is in an execution cage because this is James realizing that this is him who has done the crime and his final bullet is something of reaching a finality. While the fight with the Pyramid heads may have somewhat served that need, he still is clinging to Maria a bit (He says "Leave her the hell alone!") and may need that last push. Maria could be a demon pushing trying to drag James to a hell of some sorts. The final scene with Angela sort of throws in the possibility of the existence of hell since she now always sees flames. In the movie What Dreams May Come (I know, more making references to religious stuff in movies. I should probably read a book or something), a big part of the movie is one the characters committing suicide, and that person sort of building walls around herself, not coming to grips with her actions, and not even recognizing the person she should recognize the most. Angela fits ALL of that (Which is why I think they added the odd part with her mistaking James as her mother). So, with that in mind, Maria may be a separate entity trying to drag James into the flames, but I doubt it. Most of the things in SH 2 (or the entire SH series, for that matter) are very mental in origin. I think Maria is seen getting executed instead of Mary because James subconsciously doesn't feel he deserves to see Mary and is giving this sin-tainted replacement (notice at the end she looks exactly like Mary, but is still Maria. Completely getting rid of Maria is James turning the last screw).

I agree with you that Maria is a representation of Mary but I think she's just made to die to make james suffer over and over and remind him of what he did but to drag james in the flames. the whole closure thing I haven't really thought about but it sounds solid.


So what are these OTHER characters doing here? Well, maybe they all died in Silent Hill on the same day? Note in the Catacombs, there are newspapers with "today's date" on it. It has flaws, considering that it's quite a coincidence three murderers died on the same day in the same town, but it may be just a Twilight Zone "it makes the plot work" kind of coincidence. Maybe they've been there for awhile and are constantly repeating their sins and simply reseting each time. However, if that's the case, then I question the linearity and the apparant finality of their actions. When James kills Eddy, it doesn't seem like Eddy's going to just reset and start again, does it?

I don't think that Silent Hill is for the dead. It lures people into the town like it did to Harry and Heather, only Heather was more forced by outside forces. I think that everyone that goes to Silent Hill all have problems with their own pasts and Silent Hill calls to them to bring out their sins. Samael likes to prod at people's inter secretes until they are forced to come face to face with it and have to deal with it. When some dies in Silent Hill they are actually being killed.

Anyway, so since they're all in their own personal pergatories, they're fighting monsters of their own creation. Eddy's possibly fighting very human-like monsters that taunt him (though I can't be sure because he kills all of them and leaves them either REALLY bloody or in a place where you can't see the body). Angela is being chased by the bedman, because well, we all know what her daddy did to her. Sometimes these worlds cross and James sees Eddy's and Angela's monsters.

Like this is the same thing I said earlier and I agree 100%.

Laura is a loose end, I admit. She doesn't seem to be bothered by anything in Silent Hill. She feels she has enough time to calmly draw murals onto the walls of Silent Hill, for crying out loud! She could be there because she's been a complete and total brat to everyone. She's not exactly the nicest kid in the world. However, she may also be some kind of "tough love" help for James, pushing him into realizing all the things he can't realize himself. She locks James in the room with all the caged monsters and he fights a caged Maria later and she's the one who indirectly points out the bad things in his relationship with Mary. Of course, still, locking a guy in a room with three REALLY creepy monsters just ain't right no matter what the reason, ya' know?

Laura is of complete innocence which is why she doesn't see anything wrong with the town. She could probably see the most beautiful place on earth while it looks like hell for others. Silent Hill feeds off of other people's sins and creates a world for them based off of that. Since Laura is free of any kind of sin, she has no evil force to deal with. When she locked james in the room, it probably looked like a vacant room to her with nothing wrong with it while James sees monsters in it and begs her to open it up. Why she is in the town is a complete mystery to me since Silent Hill draws sinners. Maybe she is a resident of the town?

Anyway, that's about all I have on the subject. Hope you enjoyed reading. My only big question is what is the significance of Walter Sullivan? He's mentioned very prominantly a couple times and even has his own tombstone in the room before the battle with Eddy. If it's been covered in this thread, sorry, I'm an idiot.

I think that the whole symbolism with Walter Sullivan is that he didn't feel any shred of guilt for the murders he committed. This could represent Eddie's angle or maybe some kind to james not to feel guilt about what he did?


Oh, and a quicky theory about Silent Hill 3. I'm thinking the monsters may be a representation of the 7 deadly sins (AGAIN with the stuff learned from movies!). Since it's established at the end by Vincent that the dark world is all Claudia's decoration, and Claudia sees the world full of sin, the monsters could be a reflection on sin. The monster Heather first encounters could be greed with all the extremeties except the legs being mouths, the little things first encountered in the malls sloth with only having a giant mouth and tiny legs, the "cancers" being gluttony, the pendulums or the blademen being wraith, and the nurses being pride (They do seem to have makeup on, which is a difference from other SH nurses). Of course, I'm missing a couple, but it's a rather incomplete and flimsy theory. Just a thought, really.

For the monsters in Silent Hill 3, I think they, like james, represents some thing in heather's life. the split-faced hounds and worm represents heather's double personality, in other words it represents heather also being Alessa. the bandages on the dogs also represent the bandages on Alessa. I don't want to get into the subject of Valtiel. Numb Bodies I think represents heather having god inside her. They look similar to an undeveloped fetus and look very similar to the fetus she aborts at the end. The Closers kind of look like giant teddy bears referring to Alessia's childhood and her bedroom which she was stuck in most of her life. Insane Cancers remind me of the growth of the god inside of her and that the god inside her is nothing but cancer for mankind. It also represents that just like cancer depends humanity, the monsters of silent hill depend on the human power of imagination. Nurses represent Alessia's former life of which she was in a coma until the arrival of Cheryl.

Well those are some theories I believe in. I got most of them from this plot analysis Http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/silent_hill_3_plot.txt which I find most of them to make alot of sense. If anyone wants to dissect my post and argue my point be my guest, in fact I encourage it. I love a good discussion. Thanks again RichardKimble.

[Eccles]

James keeps seeing people die in silent hill, fine...

Why, then, does he not really care when he sees someone die?
"Maria got lynched? Damn, where's Mary?"
"I just gunned Eddia into a horrible bloodied carcass? Is mary in here?"
"OH NO! MARIA GOT STABBED! NOW SHELL NEVER TELL ME ABOUT MARY!"

[Miss Aran]

I just saw this music video of Heather singing the opening song for SH 3...so funny.

http://www.silenthilldomain.com/silenthillmedia/SilentHill3Movies.html

[Night10194]

I just wanted to say thank you to all the people in this thread for the wonderful and earnest discussion we have going on. It's quite interesting and enlightening. So...thanks!

[RichardKimble]

Hi all I just discovered this thread and I wanted to share some theories I heard. I'm going to be lazy and not read the entire thread so if anyone covered this previously sorry. Also I lurk a lot so please excuse my noob posting skills. Oh BTW, RichardKimble, please don't get mad at me for taking apart your message and expressing my theories. You were on the last page and you looked like you had a lot of good points and some I could argue. Nothing personal, I just liked your post :D

No problem. I wrote it for the sake of discussion. And as long as it adds stuff, like yours did, and not "You r teh suck," it's perfectly fine.



I also agree with this because if you noticed all of the monsters of Silent hill represent some kind of symbolic message about the town or person. The red pyramid head is constantly killing maria representing James killing his Mary. The Leg Mannequins represent james sexual tension and frustration. Before you start laughing hear me out. When Mary became ill she became a lifeless and ridden body to james. The leg mannequins are composed of all legs and are wearing clothes similar to mary's. Also maria's tempting james and the rape scene with pyramid head and the mannequins reinforce this and the fact that pyramid head is a part of james persona. The Caged Prisoner Grille Demon could represent two things, james's own emotional prison that he cannot escape or Mary's death bed. The cage is a symbol of pain and torture which james along with everyone except for Laura (which I will get to later) are experiencing. Or for theory two, the frame looks like a sadistic representation of Mary's death bed. Even maria is in the cage at the end and when she is defeated she falls to the ground and resumes the role of mary and asks james to put her out of her misery. If you take close notice to the nurses in this Silent hill the you can see that they are the only nurses wear mini-skirts thus reinforcing james's own lust, and his sexual frustration and tension.


I can see a lot of that. Certainly, the mannequins do have feminine aspects and do seem to represent somewhat his sexual frustrations. For example: The Pyramid Man rape scene. If the PM is a representation of James and the mannequins are a representation of his sexual frustrations, it certainly gives the scene a lot of context. Also, one of the little unsaid things is that while Mary was very sick, she and James couldn't, you know, do it. This could range from 6 months to 3 years, according to the doctor when James is listening to the headphones in the reading room. Not to be too immature about it, but that's a LOT of time without sex.

However, there are some enemies that don't emphasize sexuality, like the demon patients. These could be James realizing that he isn't as mentally stable as he seems to be.

I agree with you that Maria is a representation of Mary but I think she's just made to die to make james suffer over and over and remind him of what he did but to drag james in the flames. the whole closure thing I haven't really thought about but it sounds solid.

Probably. I may have overcomplicated the matter because Maria also has an extra temptress quality about her could imply a demon, but like it said, I doubt it.

I don't think that Silent Hill is for the dead. It lures people into the town like it did to Harry and Heather, only Heather was more forced by outside forces. I think that everyone that goes to Silent Hill all have problems with their own pasts and Silent Hill calls to them to bring out their sins. Samael likes to prod at people's inter secretes until they are forced to come face to face with it and have to deal with it. When some dies in Silent Hill they are actually being killed.

It probably wasn't all that clear, but I don't think Silent Hill is JUST for the dead. However, it's a great many things (especially things people bring to it) and could be a place for the dead who have a connection to it. Mary says the place is a sacred place, and a lot of the historical stuff you find agrees with that.

Off-topic, while Silent Hill 2 is definately a personal journey, I think it also fits into the series by filling out what exactly the town of Silent Hill is. In the original, it's a nice backdrop and you get some of the backstory, but just enough that you (somewhat) understand the story. Here you get a LOT of stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the main plot, but what it does do is give context for the town, much like SH 3 gives a lot of context to the cult from SH 1. So, even if you hate James and his little story, you can still admire SH 2 for being a guide to the town.
Laura is of complete innocence which is why she doesn't see anything wrong with the town. She could probably see the most beautiful place on earth while it looks like hell for others. Silent Hill feeds off of other people's sins and creates a world for them based off of that. Since Laura is free of any kind of sin, she has no evil force to deal with. When she locked james in the room, it probably looked like a vacant room to her with nothing wrong with it while James sees monsters in it and begs her to open it up. Why she is in the town is a complete mystery to me since Silent Hill draws sinners. Maybe she is a resident of the town?

Well, I wouldn't call her completely innocent. I mean, she steps on James' hand when he's reaching for the key and she isn't exactly nice to Eddie. But she does have a connection to Mary. She has the letter from Mary and they were very close and she got to see all the bad things about James. So I still think she's there for the sake of getting James to realize that he didn't always think the world of Mary.

Of course, that creates the question of why she interacts with Eddy at the bowling alley. Why does Maria stay out of the bowling alley, for that matter? If she's so scared of the monsters, why would she let the fact that she doesn't like bowling alleys bother her? Even though she claims she saw Laura runs past her, we never see Laura and Maria in the same place at the same time. Maybe that's part of of it. Maybe they're two different forces pulling at James. I think it may be Maria's a part of James' mind that is trying to push him farther into the trap he's got himself into and Laura is trying to help him out in her own rough way. or that could be all crap. Maria after all shows a LOT of sympathy for Laura and seems to genuinely want James to go after her. Who knows.

I think that the whole symbolism with Walter Sullivan is that he didn't feel any shred of guilt for the murders he committed. This could represent Eddie's angle or maybe some kind to james not to feel guilt about what he did?

Maybe. He could be a hint to James. It's one of the many things in SH 2 that seems to fit in somewhere in the puzzle but there's not an exact fit.

For the monsters in Silent Hill 3, I think they, like james, represents some thing in heather's life. the split-faced hounds and worm represents heather's double personality, in other words it represents heather also being Alessa. the bandages on the dogs also represent the bandages on Alessa. I don't want to get into the subject of Valtiel. Numb Bodies I think represents heather having god inside her. They look similar to an undeveloped fetus and look very similar to the fetus she aborts at the end. The Closers kind of look like giant teddy bears referring to Alessia's childhood and her bedroom which she was stuck in most of her life. Insane Cancers remind me of the growth of the god inside of her and that the god inside her is nothing but cancer for mankind. It also represents that just like cancer depends humanity, the monsters of silent hill depend on the human power of imagination. Nurses represent Alessia's former life of which she was in a coma until the arrival of Cheryl.

Well those are some theories I believe in. I got most of them from this plot analysis Http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/silent_hill_3_plot.txt which I find most of them to make alot of sense. If anyone wants to dissect my post and argue my point be my guest, in fact I encourage it. I love a good discussion. Thanks again RichardKimble.

You're welcome. I've read through that myself. It has a few flaws (Like not mentioning the fact that the doormen are actually the bedmen in the discussion of that enemy), but the vast amounts of information and theories backed with evidence make up for those little things ten times over. The memo feature on SH 2 and 3 help immensely for information gathering, but there are some things that the memos forget that are written down in it that help immensely in understanding everything.

As for the monster thing, that theory probably sounds more correct. I was just basing my theory off of what Vincent said at the end about the dark other world being a creation of Claudia's. But, I see basing anything off of what Vincent says to be dubious, since he's something of a swindler. He twists things to make himself more favorable and even lies to for that purpose. However, even his lies have a slight bit of truth, so you never know...

And ECCLES: Well, he's like Harry in that matter. They really have one-track minds in the game. Harry does the same thing in the original SH. "Damn, those bodies on those the wall are creepy. Let's go find Cheryl!" "Yeah, you've been changed into a zombie of sorts, but you're better now, so get off your ass and help me find Cheryl." "Yeah, yeah, all that stuff about gyromancy is all very interesting, but that doesn't help me find Cheryl, you creepy old bat!" "Wow, that nurse seems like she really needs support. Oh well, Cheryl's more important. I'm finding her."

The makers really need to find reasons for the characters to go forward, and in some ways, you need to suspend your disbelief a bit. Plus, giving them those big motivation allows them to give some believability to the characters' actions. I mean, it would take a LOT for someone to walk through three rooms worth of corpses and then jump down a hole where one can't see the bottom. Giving them this one-track mind can be a reason for it. James DOES express grief for killing Eddie, saying stuff like "I've never killed someone before" (which is, of course, not true), but if he was extremely distraught, he wouldn't get on that boat and go to the hotel, so they have to give him that determination about finding his wife. He knows there's something wrong about something surrounding his wife. Something he's missing, and that's kind of what's driving him forward. I can see why you don't particularly like James, though.

[Eccles]

Does he?
As far as Grief goes, allus James does is two lines, before he's "ah well. Shit happens. ON TO MARY!"

[RichardKimble]

Does he?
As far as Grief goes, allus James does is two lines, before he's "ah well. Shit happens. ON TO MARY!"

True. His lines after Eddie's death are:

"Eddie.... Eddie! I... I killed a... a human being... A human being...
Mary... Did you really die three years ago...?"
(From the SH 2 on Gamefaqs.com)

Still, it's a bit of grief, albeit tiny.

[Eccles]

Precisely...not very good in terms of grief :(

...I forgot what I was going to put in here.
Prolly cause I've got to go to a lecture like...10 minutes ago.

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 1 & 2 Spoilers

Well so far I've seen all my questions answered but one: Does the radio have some importance as well other than a radar? There was that freaky Trick or treat show in the elevator in part two and it's been in all three games...

In Silent Hill 1, the radio was used to help show that the world of Silent Hill existed on a different plain of reality. The radio could not play any radio stations or recieve any other signals, but only pick up the strange static emitted by monsters. By suggesting that the town had no interferences from other electromagnetic sources, either the town was secluded from the rest of the world or that it existed on a different plane altogether. Either way, this meant that the town was becoming lost or hidden.

Also, note that the televisions didn't work in town (with the exception of the Town Center, Hospital Room 312 and Nowhere). ("The phones are dead and cars have completely stopped running.") Also, the radio allows us to know that the monsters emit strong electromagnetic waves, which suggests that they are not exactly flesh and blood; they lose their magnetism as they die. This is the strongest evidence that the monsters are supernatural beings and not just figments of the mind nor physical, in a tangible sense.

Don't misunderstand. In the world that Alessa/Cheryl has created, everything has a physical form, but I believe that it does not follow the same rules of matter and energy as our plane of existance. This is a very metaphysical suggestion, but it can explain why things are the way they are in Silent Hill. One way to show this is how monsters will just disappear after some time after they are killed. Though I can see how someone might say that that is just from limitations of the graphics engine, but I think it plays into the game.

The designers had a really good understanding of the engine used for the game and exploited some of the disadvantages or rather pushed the advantages to their limits in the first game. Think about how they were able to create a full 3-D world with good graphics, real weather effects, multiple camera effects and loads of other stuff that made it a well-rounded survival horror game. So, it can be inferred that the majority of, if not all, the aspects of the game were thought out before hand and added into the story. *steps off soapbox*

For example, the reason they created the fog was to enhance the scary feeling of the game. They knew that the engine could handle showning the entire town without blocking it with fog, but the designers felt that the fog was important to the motif of the game. They choose good game design over elaborate graphics.

And ECCLES: Well, he's like Harry in that matter. They really have one-track minds in the game. Harry does the same thing in the original SH. "Damn, those bodies on those the wall are creepy. Let's go find Cheryl!" "Yeah, you've been changed into a zombie of sorts, but you're better now, so get off your ass and help me find Cheryl." "Yeah, yeah, all that stuff about gyromancy is all very interesting, but that doesn't help me find Cheryl, you creepy old bat!" "Wow, that nurse seems like she really needs support. Oh well, Cheryl's more important. I'm finding her."

There might be an explanation for the simple mindedness of Harry, but it deals with my theory that Harry is just a pawn for Dahlia. As things go with pawns, they don't think much about their tasks. But Harry isn't exactly your common pawn either. He tries to sort out his pridicament and gets detered from his mission occasionally, but then something happens to keep him going. If he tries to reason out the events of Silent Hill, his "mind goes blank." If he becomes detered from finding Cheryl, an image of her in trouble or a reminder of her is presented.

Take Midwich for example, after being in the alternate school a while, I'm sure he was ready to turn around and leave, but the phone call from Cheryl rekindled his search. Again, after wondering around Central Silent Hill, Cybil appears to tell Harry about a girl's whereabouts. Yet again, after traveling back and forth between the misty and alternate Silent Hills, Harry may have lacked some motivation, or have been tired of searching, but then the Town Square images appear to remind him of his objective: (quoting the Silent Hill game manual) "to find Cheryl."

Anyway, my point is that though Harry is a pawn, he still has his free will, though it is being influenced. So his one-track mindedness is somewhat forced, by Dahlia, I believe.

As to James' case, I believe that his mental condition combined with his denial and the influences of Silent Hill, make him really confused and unresponsive. You should also try to account that subconciously, James knows he did and that maybe the world around him isn't real. Though James doesn't show it much (like his happier side), he does have a darker side to him. His darker side may cause him to be nonchallant about the carnage and destruction, especially if you believe that the town is a projection of his mind.

Then again, James does react to and/or comment on the dead people in the tunnel where the radio is found, on the dead guys in the apartment buildings and on the deaths of the manniquins by PH. But, after he meets Maria, or at least passes through the alley behind the apartments, he stops reacting to that stuff (at least to a degree; he is still affected by Maria's deaths).

Also, after and probably during the fight with Eddie, James' subconcious is reminding him that he has killed a person before, so it is causing him confusion about his nature. The reason he says "Mary" after the fight is most likely because he needs to know that she is not dead to disprove his surfacing doubts about the cleanliness of his hands. He doesn't want to think he's crazy and by finding Mary, he thinks he can prove he's not. But really, he's just as crazy as they come.

I believe that the whole plot surrounding James' search for Mary is just to convince himself that he's not crazy, to justify his actions and to end his pain caused by his doubt and guilt. This state of mind is one of the hardest problems a psychologist can face and creates many different theories about how human nature works.

[Eccles]

<_<
>_>

I might start work on the AMV tonight :D

[ifirit]

If you'd like help on anything, feel free to ask me. Oh, and just so you know, I'm working on a Silent Hill game plot (well, more of a fan fiction) in the hopes of someday creating a game. Anyway, when I finish, I'll probably post it in this forum.

I don't want to give away too much, as I haven't finalize the plot skeleton, but it will be in the same manner as SH2 & SH4. However, I hope to add more influences from SH1 & SH3.

I will say that I have the opening scenes finished and a few character and monster designs started. The setting will include two sections of Central Silent Hill, because I'd like to see what the town would look like with PS2 or greater graphics.

[Eccles]

We've got plans for a monster in our silent hill game, but so far the doodles dont look very good, so I darent post :P

[ifirit]

O\ /O

|vvvvv|

|^^^^|

[Sentora]

Well so far I've seen all my questions answered but one: Does the radio have some importance as well other than a radar? There was that freaky Trick or treat show in the elevator in part two and it's been in all three games...

In Silent Hill 1, the radio was used to help show that the world of Silent Hill existed on a different plain of reality. The radio could not play any radio stations or recieve any other signals, but only pick up the strange static emitted by monsters. By suggesting that the town had no interferences from other electromagnetic sources, either the town was secluded from the rest of the world or that it existed on a different plain altogether. Either way, this meant that the town was becoming lost or hidden.

Also, note that the televisions didn't work in town (with the exception of the Town Center, Hospital Room 312 and Nowhere), "the phones are dead and cars have completely stopped running." Also, the radio allows us to know that the monsters emit strong electromagnetic waves, which suggests that they are not exactly flesh and blood; they lose their magnetism as they die. This is the strongest evidence that the monsters are supernatural beings and not just figments of the mind nor physical, in a tangilbe sense.

Don't misunderstand. In the world that Alessa/Cheryl has created, everything has a physical form, but I believe that it does not follow the same rules of matter and energy as our plain of existance. This is a very metaphysical suggestion, but it can explain why things are the way they are in Silent Hill. One way to show this is how monsters will just disappear after some time after they are killed. Though I can see how someone might say that that is just from limitations of the graphics engine, but I think it plays into the game.

The designers had a really good understanding of the engine used for the game and exploited some of the disadvantages or rather pushed the advantages to their limits in the first game. Think about how they were able to create a full 3-D world with good graphics, real weather effects, multiple camera effects and loads of other stuff that made it a well-rounded survival horror game. So, it can be infered that the majority of, if not all, the aspects of the game were thought out before hand and added into the story. *steps off soapbox*


*Nods* I understand now I think...so in sense, The radio is much like Egon's PKE meter from Ghostbusters or a gifted person's ablity to sense spirtual/paranormal energies. And ghosts or demons, although not bound by the same rules as this world can affect it. Thanks Ifirt. Makes me wonder who created it, or if the powers manipulating the main character manifiested it for them as a guide of sorts...

*Gets a thought and goes back to read a few of the theories again.*

Now this is probably a suck ass theory about Laura and Silent hill itself and all, but I'd thought I'd share it anyway since you guys helped inspire it, feel free to pick it apart. :P

In his post, Ironknuckle refered to Silent hill having a conciousness, composed of two sides, good and evil, light and dark, etc., just like a person. While he refered to it being Samael, is it possible that the town itself is also a entity itself with the same dual nature? From the rituals and all that spirtual/dark energies along with Samael's power, I wouldn't be surprised if it did develop it's own conciousness as a result of the mix. Kinda like how Frankenstien used lightling to bring his monster to life.

So if it's true and the town is alive, it could be having it's own conflict between it's good and evil sides, and actively seeks out contact to learn more about the world it's been removed from. Samael of course, exploits this by feeding off the pain and suffering of those that answers the town's call. 'Special people' like James, Eddie and Angela.

Some evidence of this is the fact that although Silent hill creates a personal hell for those who enter filled with the demons they bring within them, it also provides means for you to survive with all the items placed around to help you, giving clues or literally creates personas to interact with you. Which brings me to Laura and Maria.

Laura could be the physical manifestion of the town's inner struggle. It's innocence and darkness all at once in the form of a child because a Child has potiental for either depending on his/her enviorment. While she is the one to push James into discovering the truth and represent as his 'innocence' as Ifirit stated, her methods are rather extreme and show the darker nature her appearence hides but can't help control. Her search for Mary as a surrogate mother can be looked at as the town's need to nurture and grow and have a place in the world besides the role that Samael has created for it.

On the flip side of Laura is Maria, representing the darker half and the tool that Samael wants Silent hill to be. Like the town perverts one's perception, Maria perverted Mary's image to reflect what James secretly desired Mary to be. She allowed herself to be used to drag James deeper into his guilt and helplessness by being excuted repeatedly in front of him. This not only allowed Silent hill to 'keep' James kinda like a pet, but also made Samael stronger at the same time. The fact that Maria and Laura are never in the same place at the same time but aware of each other also shows that they could be one and the same and just switch forms when one side is winning the inner struggle. They both do have blond hair and act as James' primary influences. Further proof is how Maria in Mary's form during the Leave ending tries to kill James when he rejects her. Like how a child throws a tantrum and breaks a toy that won't work the way she wants.

While out on a limb here, I'd like to also say that while I wholeheartedly agree with the theories that Eddie and Angela represent parts of James' psyche, through a certain point of view they also can represent the Town itself. Samael would be no different from the abusive father that victimized Angela for his pleasure. And like Angela, Silent hill seeks redemption but in the end but ultimately gives in to Samael again and again. With that thought, you can look at the conversation between James and angela on the flaming stairway in a different light. Angela/Silent hill seeking help from those who come, only to be rejected and forced to accept the role that Samael has created. The same dual nature can even be heard in her voice every time you see her, first talking almost childlike then more adult as the conversation plays out.

Another hint to that connection is Angela's remark about seeing the flames all the time. Flames are a symbol of hell and Silent hill is hell on earth anyway you look at it :P So Silent hill accepts it's nature and continues to torture while seeking help at the same time. You could even look at Silent hill 1 for a mirror of the same persona and situation in Lisa Garland, seeking Harry's aid and pushed away in her last cut scene...

Eddie on the other hand, is simpler. He is both the town's anger at it's situation and rejection from those it calls, as well it's darkside's acceptance of Samael's evil nature. He also reminds James that Monsters come in human form as well.

Well...I've rambled on enough for now. Just a little brainstorm that kicked up at reading the theories. Hope you guys find something interesting in it all, even if just as a scratching post to tear into. :P

[Eccles]

Imagine two arms.
Imagine theyre joined to a head in the middle.

Imagine its covered in horribly burned, mutilated flesh.

THAT is my monster

[StarZander]

So... It's a flying head, with arms for ears? Or is it a head, still with arms for ears, that's walking around on these arms? What does it do? Breathe at you, with it's horrid breath fron hell?





Sorry.

[Eccles]

So... It's a flying head, with arms for ears? Or is it a head, still with arms for ears, that's walking around on these arms? What does it do? Breathe at you, with it's horrid breath fron hell?
Sorry.
It walks about on the arms.

Yeah, its hard to describe so when I get a GOOD drawing of it Ill post (the idea is that is wraps its arms round you like a hug before trying to collapse your ribcage)

[StarZander]

So... It's a flying head, with arms for ears? Or is it a head, still with arms for ears, that's walking around on these arms? What does it do? Breathe at you, with it's horrid breath fron hell?
Sorry.
It walks about on the arms.

Yeah, its hard to describe so when I get a GOOD drawing of it Ill post (the idea is that is wraps its arms round you like a hug before trying to collapse your ribcage)

Oooh, so it jumps up at you... maybe even bites you? Well... sounds Silent Hillish enough, but a drawing would still help. =)

[Eccles]

So... It's a flying head, with arms for ears? Or is it a head, still with arms for ears, that's walking around on these arms? What does it do? Breathe at you, with it's horrid breath fron hell?
Sorry.
It walks about on the arms.

Yeah, its hard to describe so when I get a GOOD drawing of it Ill post (the idea is that is wraps its arms round you like a hug before trying to collapse your ribcage)

Oooh, so it jumps up at you... maybe even bites you? Well... sounds Silent Hillish enough, but a drawing would still help. =)
No, it doesnt bite you...since the original plan was that it didnt have a head.

It's based off a monster in a british TV ad...the idea being that it wasnt a monster but a big fluffy thing that hugged people whenever they drank a cup-a-soup...
But thats just dumb and boring.
I prefer my bad-ass collapse your ribcage version

[StarZander]

So... It's a flying head, with arms for ears? Or is it a head, still with arms for ears, that's walking around on these arms? What does it do? Breathe at you, with it's horrid breath fron hell?
Sorry.
It walks about on the arms.

Yeah, its hard to describe so when I get a GOOD drawing of it Ill post (the idea is that is wraps its arms round you like a hug before trying to collapse your ribcage)

Oooh, so it jumps up at you... maybe even bites you? Well... sounds Silent Hillish enough, but a drawing would still help. =)
No, it doesnt bite you...since the original plan was that it didnt have a head.

It's based off a monster in a british TV ad...the idea being that it wasnt a monster but a big fluffy thing that hugged people whenever they drank a cup-a-soup...
But thats just dumb and boring.
I prefer my bad-ass collapse your ribcage version

So do I, my friend, so do I.

[Eccles]

Seriously, who wouldnt

[Night10194]

Lord, I have sinned, for I have been tempted sorely to attempt a fanfiction idea on SH, after I long ago swore off that sort of thing. Does this make me a horrible person? :p

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 2 Spoilers

Laura could be the physical manifestion of the town's inner struggle. It's innocence and darkness all at once in the form of a child because a Child has potiental for either depending on his/her enviorment. While she is the one to push James into discovering the truth and represent as his 'innocence' as Ifirit stated, her methods are rather extreme and show the darker nature her appearence hides but can't help control. Her search for Mary as a surrogate mother can be looked at as the town's need to nurture and grow and have a place in the world besides the role that Samael has created for it.

I think you are misinterpretting what I said. Laura does not represent James' innocence, because James has none. She represented his inability to accept the truth and his regression to child-like tendencies. Also, she represented his desire to find Mary, not the reasons for it. Eddie represents his reasons for finding Mary.

EDIT: Yea! You spelled my name right. Here, have a cookie (http://www.shm.dustfungo.com/sh2/audio/voice/SH2-MarySuffocation(Secret).mp3). (Link Updated)

On the flip side of Laura is Maria, representing the darker half and the tool that Samael wants Silent hill to be. Like the town perverts one's perception, Maria perverted Mary's image to reflect what James secretly desired Mary to be. She allowed herself to be used to drag James deeper into his guilt and helplessness by being excuted repeatedly in front of him. This not only allowed Silent hill to 'keep' James kinda like a pet, but also made Samael stronger at the same time. The fact that Maria and Laura are never in the same place at the same time but aware of each other also shows that they could be one and the same and just switch forms when one side is winning the inner struggle. They both do have blond hair and act as James' primary influences. Further proof is how Maria in Mary's form during the Leave ending tries to kill James when he rejects her. Like how a child throws a tantrum and breaks a toy that won't work the way she wants.

There are many ideas about how Silent Hill represents the dichotomy of good and evil, but honestly, the idea of "Good" and "Evil" Silent Hill isn't exactly a perfect fit. Most people tend to catagorize the two worlds as Light and Dark Silent Hill, mostly for ease and also to show that one is good and one is evil. However, this is misleading because neither world is truely "Good". It's more like choosing the lesser of two evils.

You see, there is a Misty Silent Hill and an Alternate Silent Hill. I believe Misty Silent Hill represents that very idea, being misty. Mist, or fog, can represent the idea of hiding or being lost. By hiding, the town, if characterize as a person, would be dilberately decieving the outside world to believing nothing is there. At the same time, shrouding its power and horror from those who enter and try to find truth. I believe that this would make the misty aspect of the town manipulative in nature. Taking the interpretation that it is lost, you would then have to think that something is making the town lost, as towns don't wander (or do they?). The town would then be looking for a way to be found. Yet, if we were to characterize Silent Hill like a person, how do people react to being lost? Some panic, others are calm and resourceful, others stay put until they are found, still others seek help and sometimes there are those who lose touch with the world. This misty aspect is then said to be unpredictable and untrustworthy. If so, you wouldn't exactly place it in the beign catagory, would you?

Needless to say, but Alternate Silent Hill is not a "Good" place either. Yet, people shouldn't directly associate the dark with the evil aspect. Of course, there are things that make that world evil, but it isn't the dark. Just like it's Misty conterpart, Alternate Silent Hill uses the dark to either hide or lose those people who seek it out. However, the dark is worse than the mist, because it doesn't just limit the ability for people to see, it nullifies it completely. Don't say that certain people can still see in the dark, because you can always raise the darkness setting; which is interesting when you think about it, as it gives you the ability to make the world worse for you rather than better.

Anyway, I think that there is a more interesting dichotomy within the Alternate Silent Hill in good and evil, because within the dark you find Lisa, a ray of light. In SH2, there doesn't seem to be a clear a distinction between the Misty and Alternate Silent Hills, except for the one instance in Brookhaven Hospital, but then the transitions are lost as after the fight with Eddie the world does not transition back to Misty Silent Hill, nor does the Alternate Hotel appear darker. Of course you don't have the flashlight anymore, but there is light within the Alternate Hotel from outside, so making the distinction is harder.

While out on a limb here, I'd like to also say that while I wholeheartedly agree with the theories that Eddie and Angela represent parts of James' psyche, through a certain point of view they also can represent the Town itself.

This is a very good interpretation of what I said before, because neither Angela nor Eddie is inherently good or evil, but lying closer to the evil side. Still, there is no direct reference to Samael in Silent Hill 2, so I like to stay away from theories that rely heavily on his presence. As a substitute, you could use the "old gods" for Samael, but you will need to alter the characteristics of Samael and thus the resulting effects on the ideas about the town, Eddie and Angela.

By the way, between Harry, Lisa, Dahlia, Michael, Samael, James, Maria, Mary, Angela, Laura, Pyramid Head, Heather, Claudia, Douglas, and Lennard, how many"A"'s is that?

[Sentora]

I think you are misinterpretting what I said. Laura does not represent James' innocence, because James has none. She represented his inability to accept the truth and his regression to child-like tendencies. Also, she represented his desire to find Mary, not the reasons for it. Eddie represents his reasons for finding Mary.

EDIT: Yea! You spelled my name right. Here, have a cookie (http://www.silenthilldomain.com/silenthillmedia/sh2/audio/voice/SH2-MarySuffocation(Secret).mp3).

Ah, that does make more sense. thanks for clearing it up.

*smirks at the cookie.* Nice one, Ifirit :P

There are many ideas about how Silent Hill represents the dichotomy of good and evil, but honestly, the idea of "Good" and "Evil" Silent Hill isn't exactly a perfect fit. Most people tend to catagorize the two worlds as Light and Dark Silent Hill, mostly for ease and also to show that one is good and one is evil. However, this is misleading because neither world is truely "Good". It's more like choosing the lesser of two evils.

You see, there is a Misty Silent Hill and an Alternate Silent Hill. I believe Misty Silent Hill represents that very idea, being misty. Mist, or fog, can represent the idea of hiding or being lost. By hiding, the town, if characterize as a person, would be dilberately decieving the outside world to believing nothing is there. At the same time, shrouding its power and horror from those who enter and try to find truth. I believe that this would make the misty aspect of the town manipulative in nature. Taking the interpretation that it is lost, you would then have to think that something is making the town lost, as towns don't wander (or do they?). The town would then be looking for a way to be found. Yet, if we were to characterize Silent Hill like a person, how do people react to being lost? Some panic, others are calm and resourceful, others stay put until they are found, still others seek help and sometimes there are those who lose touch with the world. This misty aspect is then said to be unpredictable and untrustworthy. If so, you wouldn't exactly place it in the beign catagory, would you?

Needless to say, but Alternate Silent Hill is not a "Good" place either. Yet, people shouldn't directly associate the dark with the evil aspect either. Of course there are things that make that world evil, but it isn't the dark. Just like it's Misty conterpart, Alternate Silent Hill uses the dark to either hide or lose those people who seek it out. However, the dark is worse than the mist, because it doesn't just limit the ability for people to see, it nullifies it completely. Don't say that certain people can still see in the dark, because you can always raise the darkness setting; which is interesting when you think about it, as it gives you the ability to make the world worse for you rather than better.

Anyway, I think that there is a more interesting dichotomy within the Alternate Silent Hill in good and evil, because within the dark you find Lisa, a ray of light. In SH2, there doesn't seem to be a clear a distinction between the Misty and Alternate Silent Hills, except for the one instance in Brookhaven Hospital, but then the transitions are lost as after the fight with Eddie the world does not transition back to Misty Silent Hill, nor does the Alternate Hotel appear darker. Of course you don't have the flashlight anymore, but there is light within the Alternate Hotel from outside, so making the distinction is harder.

Damn good rebuttal there. I appauld ya. ^_^ the only answer I could reply in kind is while you're correct about the misty silent hill being untrustworthy, it could be also considered a reaction of panic...that it hides just enough of the obvious wrongness of the place to lure in that help. Playing on the human trait of being afraid to explore something dangerous, but too damn curious not to want to look anyway. That doesn't make it less deceptive, but it's better than the darkness in that point of view.

But a question. wouldn't you count the apartments as an example of the distinctions of Misty and Alternate silent hill in part 2 if you say Brookhaven was? and after eddie Silent hill did revert back to it's misty version for the canoe ride to the Hotel briefly, just as James was closest to the ugly truth. As for the alternate hotel, true there wasn't darkness but there WAS the flooding that made it hard to see where you was walking and hid Patient demons. Not to mention swallowed the hotel and forced you forward by taking away all exits out of the place and away from the final battle.

This is a very good interpretation of what I said before, because neither Angela nor Eddie is inherently good or evil, but lying closer to the evil side. Still, there is no direct reference to Samael in Silent Hill 2, so I like to stay away from theories that rely heavily on his presence. As a substitute, you could use the "old gods" for Samael, but you will need to alter the characteristics of Samael and thus the resulting effects on the ideas about the town, Eddie and Angela.

By the way, between Harry, Lisa, Dahlia, Michael, Samael, James, Maria, Mary, Angela, Laura, Pyramid Head, Heather, Claudia, Douglas, and Lennard, how many"A"'s is that?

Well, there are the butterflies we see in the apartment and Maria's tattoo. Not as direct as parts 1 and 3 were about his presence true, but knowing they're the insect representing Samael you can't ignore those as clues he's around lurking and watching....

...and yeah, that's a lot of damn a's. 21 in all.

Waiting for your reply Ifirit or anyone else who'd like to add to this. I'm having fun discussing it. :D

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 2 Spoilers

But a question. wouldn't you count the apartments as an example of the distinctions of Misty and Alternate silent hill in part 2 if you say Brookhaven was?

No. Nothing happened in the apartment buildings. There was no transition between Misty and Alternate Silent Hill, nor was there a section where the apartments changed to the metal grating, massive decay and horrific scenary. And no matter how much you associate the sirens from SH1 to be the change to Alternate Silent Hill (ASH), that mold is broken in SH2.

The reason I say it happens in Brookhaven, is because the hospital changes its appearance after the finding Laura and beating the monsters. A transition occurs and the world becomes ASH.

Also, please note that the darkness inside the apartment buildings and the hotel came from the fact that the windows and some doors were boarded up, not allowing natural light to enter. That is the reason it is dark. ASH doesn't just mean where it is dark, it has to transform like in all the games. It's just that the distinctions are blurred in SH2.

Well, there are the butterflies we see in the apartment and Maria's tattoo. Not as direct as parts 1 and 3 were about his presence true, but knowing they're the insect representing Samael you can't ignore those as clues he's around lurking and watching....

Before Eccles murders you, I should let you know that those are mothes, not butterflies, on the bed. And butterfly tatoos are very popular among women. Still, I won't ignore the references about the influence from Samael in SH2. However, as I don't know the time line for SH2 with respect to the entire series, we cannot assume that Samael is present in Silent Hill, or rather Toluca Lake. Some people could argue that it is not Samael influencing the town, but rather Metatron.

Besides, we learn from the Rebirth ending that James invokes the "old gods" (plural) by appeasing them to bring back Mary. As James states, "They still grant power to those who venerate them. Power to defy even death." If Samael was the angel of death, could he have the power to bring back Mary, or would it require an angel of life?

EDIT: I working on two overall theories of SH2: the small picture and big picture. It will take some time to sort things out so I'm not posting right away.

[ifirit]

By the way, between Harry, Lisa, Dahlia, Michael, Samael, James, Maria, Mary, Angela, Laura, Pyramid Head, Heather, Claudia, Douglas, and Lennard, how many "A"'s is that?

...and yeah, that's a lot of damn a's. 21 in all.

You sure?

I see 26. :tomatoface:

[SlothropX]

One thing that I've wondered about a lot is why the Silent Hill games are so scary. People who would yawn through your average survival-horror zombiefest end up having a morbid fascination about Silent Hill. Not many people have the same obsession with Raccoon City, or whatever.

I think it has to do with the fact that the games make a very apt point about the human condition. Everyone walks around in their own fog of anxieties and fears. People get so wrapped up in their own issues and misery that it sometimes seems hopeless for anyone to connect, much like the people in SH2 float in and out of each others' nightmarish realities, never really able to relate or communicate.

Reality can be just as mutable for us, too, since things can have very different meanings for different people. What might just look like a normal house to everyone else would be a den of torment and self-loathing for an abused wife. A casual friend of mine could've caused horrible emotional trauma to someone in the past, giving her and I very different interpretations of the person. A book, a city, a day next week...everything has different meanings. We all live in different worlds.

So the Silent Hill games really just add a bit of flesh to the fundamental disconnection in all of our lives. James, Angela, and Eddie would've been just as wrapped up in their own flawed existences outside of SH. The enshrouding fog and personal demons already existed, the forces of the town simply made them physical. It is a bleak view of humanity, but it obviously resonates well enough to terrify and fascinate most people. We all know the fog, and are afraid to admit that there could be monsters out there.

[StarZander]

One thing that I've wondered about a lot is why the Silent Hill games are so scary. People who would yawn through your average survival-horror zombiefest end up having a morbid fascination about Silent Hill. Not many people have the same obsession with Raccoon City, or whatever.

I think it has to do with the fact that the games make a very apt point about the human condition. Everyone walks around in their own fog of anxieties and fears. People get so wrapped up in their own issues and misery that it sometimes seems hopeless for anyone to connect, much like the people in SH2 float in and out of each others' nightmarish realities, never really able to relate or communicate.

Reality can be just as mutable for us, too, since things can have very different meanings for different people. What might just look like a normal house to everyone else would be a den of torment and self-loathing for an abused wife. A casual friend of mine could've caused horrible emotional trauma to someone in the past, giving her and I very different interpretations of the person. A book, a city, a day next week...everything has different meanings. We all live in different worlds.

So the Silent Hill games really just add a bit of flesh to the fundamental disconnection in all of our lives. James, Angela, and Eddie would've been just as wrapped up in their own flawed existences outside of SH. The enshrouding fog and personal demons already existed, the forces of the town simply made them physical. It is a bleak view of humanity, but it obviously resonates well enough to terrify and fascinate most people. We all know the fog, and are afraid to admit that there could be monsters out there.

I believe that the Resident Evil games concentrate mostly on making the monsters scary, and not so much the situation. Also RE doesn't really try to freak you out with sound effects, but just make you stressed. In short, in RE they only seem to try to use the "Booh!"-effect, whilst Silent Hill tries to really mess with your mind.

Silent Hill is something we can relate to a little more. Just a normal guy, coming to a "normal" town, and strange things happen, in places that we can really relate to. Because... The more you can relate to something, the more you believe it could happen to YOU, and the more scared you will become.

The sound effects in SH aren't some sort of music with increasing tempo, but erratic freaky sounds that doesn't really make any sense. Hence, we add some degree of confusion to the situation. I don't know about you, but I hate confusion. :P

Well, anyway, this is my theory on why SH is scarier. When I was a kid, RE was scary as hell, but now it's just silly action for the most part. SH on the other hand... A few years ago, I couldn't play it at all, because I was so scared. Unfortunately I am near unable to get frightened nowadays. Only time I got scared from SH, was from the extra scenario in SH2: Director's Cut, because there you had no flashlight or radio. I might try to play through the regular games without using these two things (unless they are necessary for a riddle).

[RichardKimble]

Well, the thing about Silent Hill is that it literally descends you into the depths of madness, which is, needless to say, quite unnerving. And it's not like the sanity gimmick in Eternal Darkness where you can just cast a couple spells and you're good as new. Like the characters, you have to wade through some of the most mentally disturbing stuff you've ever experienced without losing your mind, and there is no easy way out. What's worse, all of it has the tinge of human atrocity all over of it. You have to look at all the horrible things human beings can and have done to each other, which is probably the unpleasant of all. That is why SH truly frightens me.

[Night10194]

Silent Hill is frightening for the implications of the story, to me. James is a frightening protagonist simply because I can somewhat understand why he did what he did.

Resident Evil is not scary because it has atrocious voice acting, silly looking critters, and stupid plots.

[Eccles]

to be fair, the voice acting in Silent hill sucks, too...
not so much in 2, but it still sucks.

[ifirit]

Clock Tower 3 Spoiler

I just want to quell some of the rivalry between the two games before this becomes another SH vs. RE topics. It's true that there are fundemental differences between the two games. However, I believe Diane Mizota put it best when they covered the topic on "Filter": "the Silent Hill series is one that messes with your mind, while the Resident Evil series messes with your heart."

I've played and own a few of the games from the Resident Evil series. And I admit, there some fun and scary elements to the games. The most noted is probably the tale-tell scare tactics. Everyone whose played the game (and probably some who haven't) can tell you about the dogs jumping through the windows in RE or the hands that grab you as you pass the hallway in RE2. But it's just like watching your favorite scary movie, even though you know the plot is lame, the scare tactics are predictable and acting is atrocious, you still watch them for the sheer fun in having your heart racing and adrinaline pumping. Ah, Friday the 13th, how I love thee.

Still, when it comes down to picking games I love to play, talk about and explore again and again, Silent Hill wins out. I think it's just the amount depth to these games continues to spur my imagination that the RE series hasn't. But now remember, SH and RE aren't the only games in the genre.

What about the Clock Tower series? Whoever has not picked up Clock Tower 3, needs to go down to BlockBuster, Movie Warehouse, Video Shack or whatever store rents games and pick it up! Talk about a scary game. I couldn't even make it past the first killer. Everywhere you go, he's there. No matter where you hide, he's there. No matter what you do, he's there. Even talking about him makes me quiver. *Pulls the covers over his head* Anyway, it combines the elements of jumping-out-at-and-screaming "BOO" with elements of not knowing and confusion about what happens next. In a way, its the best of both worlds.

Don't forget the Fatal Frame series. Fatal Frame, again more along the lines of RE, is a challenging game with a more innovative, less violent approach. However, Fatal Frame 2 is supposed to be a great game because of some deeper story lines, advanced game play and characters that really make you care about them. I'm looking forward to it (but probably not as much as SH4: The Room).

So, there are lots of good games out there that appeal to the tastes of many survival-horror fans. So, petty arguments and flames about SH vs RE or whatever are just as bad as a Freddy vs Jason argument. It doesn't matter who likes what as long as you know what you like.

EDIT: Anyone else remember the part in Clock Tower 3 where the little girl gets her head smashed in with the sledge hammer? Talk about gruesome. :twisted:

[Firedrake]

Silent Hill 4 (http://www.konami.com/silenthill4/#)
And the trailer is out. I found it at www.gametrailers.com , I recommend you guys check it out.

[Roboduck]

Is there any info about The Room yet?

[Firedrake]

Is there any info about The Room yet?Well, apart from what I posted, I haven't found much official info.
Somewhere in this thread are a few pages to a Silent Hill 4 promotional comic book. And there is always the trailer.

[Firedrake]

Well, I don't want this thread to die, so bump.

*SPOILER*
Also, in SH2, does anyone happen to know the name to the song in the hotel when it's flooded, after seeing the video?
*SPOLIER*

[StarZander]

Well, I don't want this thread to die, so bump.

*SPOILER*
Also, in SH2, does anyone happen to know the name to the song in the hotel when it's flooded, after seeing the video?
*SPOLIER*

In the Complete Soundtrack there is a song called Flooded Estate. Is that the one you are referring to perhaps? Probably not. I can't say for sure which one it is, but check out True from the OST instead.

[ifirit]

Here's a lulaby to close your eyes.
It was always you that I despised.
I don't feel enough for you to cry,
Here's a lulaby to close your eyes.
Goodbye,
Goodbye,
Goodbye...

That was an awesome trailer. Completely different from the rest of the series.

[Eccles]

Well it looks like theyve gone off-a making monsters symbolic and into "fucking weird"

[Eccles]

Meat?
It's what you keep in a meat locker, you know...

[ifirit]

While I still believe that Silent Hill is alive, or conscious, whether or not Silent Hill is Samael is still up in the air to me.

It's hard to accept the idea that a town is alive, but as I've said before, the developers did introduce the idea that the town (or in a broader sense, reality) is dynamic. How you interpret these changes can reflect more of a philosophy that you believe about the game (or again, of life in the broader sense). In your case, you have given the dynamics human or at least personifying characteristics.

The ability to think and make conscious decisions is typically a human trait, and to place that trait onto inanimate objects, such as a town, suggests that you believe (presumably) that the supernatural powers of Silent Hill are innate. This would imply one of two things: either the town has always held a special power embedded within it, or that the special power brought the town to life while infusing it with the magical forces.

If the first case is true, then the town would have always existed as such and it would be unlikely that the town developed as it did or had much of a past. Still, it is debatable that the appearance of the town is due to the projections that its visitors have. Anyway, if the second case is true, then the town has a true past and the facts and history of Silent Hill are true, not just projections. This is a possible scenario since the power of "Samael" was brought in the plane of reality which Silent Hill exists.

Consquently, there is a third option to believe, though similar to the second, it lacks the fundemental idea that the town has a will and/or conscience of its own. If the town developed from the presence of a special power residing there, this would suggest that the town itself was summoned. Because the town was summoned, then it would require a force behind it to pull the strings, so to speak. It could not act without the influence of another being. As such, this would make the town capable of being influenced, much easier than that of one with a will of its own. Therefore, the presence of Alternate and Nowhere Silent Hills can be accounted for simply.

The reason it is hard to accept the idea that the town is alive is that by giving the town a conscience makes it aware of its actions and consquences. As such, this requires spectulation into a matter that goes beyond the scope of the games. I like to stick to the facts. All we can gather is that something is causing the town to act the way it is. That's really all that's important.

Still, this sort of thought does provide interesting discussion in philosophy and personal doctrines. So, I hope that some of this helps you to develop your theory on the game.

I must say that I disagree with the theory that Angela, Eddie and the others are projections of James's mind. The town called them, and generally a calling is for some specific purpose. Eddie specifically adds the word "too" to his statement, which to me suggests that he, at least, is also a real person just like James. I think we can infer from that that Angela and Laura are real too. Of course, Maria is probably not a real person. I believe this is why she refuses to go into the bowling alley with James. She knows (or perhaps Silent Hill knows) that Eddie and Laura are inside.

This can go either way. The characters from SH2 could be real or could be imaginary. However, if your arguement for their presence is that they were "called to" Silent Hill, you have to ask yourself, where were they called from? Maybe they came from neighboring towns, or maybe from the depths of James' psyche. The game doesn't really make that clear for the supporting cast. The only interactions they have involves Laura. So maybe Laura is a connecting factor? Still, again it depends on your view of the game and your own judgements.

I really should post my own thoughts and conclusions of Silent Hill 2 here, but there is just so much information; it's hard to get everything straight. Maybe soon.

Har. I mean, from what animal? Or demon? Or...anything?

As far as it goes, it looks like it came from a large quadriped, most likely from cattle. Not very exciting, but probable. Though, it would be gross if it came from monster in Silent Hill. How would that funky food-chain work?

[Eccles]

*loads the video*

Hard to say...

[StarZander]

This can go either way. The characters from SH2 could be real or could be imaginary. However, if your arguement for their presence is that they were "called to" Silent Hill, you have to ask yourself, where were they called from? Maybe they came from neighboring towns, or maybe from the depths of James' psyche. The game doesn't really make that clear for the supporting cast. The only interactions they have involves Laura. So maybe Laura is a connecting factor? Still, again it depends on your view of the game and your own judgements.

Angela must've been "called" from Silent Hill itself. She is looking for her family in the Silent Hill Cemetary, and the newspaper where her father's murder was described, was also from Silent Hill, wasn't it? Then Laura was in the hospital with Mary, right? Well... which hospital? Some facts indicate that they were in a hospital in some other town, but they seem to have been in the Silent Hill Hospital aswell. And Eddie... Well... I can't really connect him to Silent Hill directly, but as you said, there was no indication that he was from a neighbouring town either.

[ifirit]

Angela must've been "called" from Silent Hill itself. She is looking for her family in the Silent Hill Cemetary, and the newspaper where her father's murder was described, was also from Silent Hill, wasn't it? Then Laura was in the hospital with Mary, right? Well... which hospital? Some facts indicate that they were in a hospital in some other town, but they seem to have been in the Silent Hill Hospital aswell. And Eddie... Well... I can't really connect him to Silent Hill directly, but as you said, there was no indication that he was from a neighbouring town either.

Lots and lots of information here. First, Konami's character description of Angela says she is a run-away who escaped to Silent Hill to get away from her father who dragged her back home after she ran away the first time. But in the conversation in the cemetary, she says she thought her father and brother were there. Again, in the apartment building, James asks her if this was her home, but she avoids the question. Also, what was the date on the newspaper and where is it from? All this information doesn't add up. So, there is an indescrepency that could lead you towards having Angela being imaginary.

Less is known about Eddie. We can't say where he came from exactly, but something suggests that he's been in Silent Hill before. In the meat locker, Eddie confesses his actions that lead him to run away. Quite notably he says, "He'll have a hard time playing football on what's left of that knee." And, in the apartment complex, right after you speak with Eddie, there is another room that you can go into where a lot of football posters are hanging with a bunch of graffiti on them. I'm inclined to connect them to Eddie because it provides evidence of the people laughing at him, which probably angered him to kill the guy in the kitchen. And a lot of people think that is why Eddie is puking; because he was suffering killer's remorse. Well, I can't suggest Eddie in either direction, because there is not much information on his past and present situation nor is there much indescrepency to suggest he's not real.

Maria is almost completely able to prove imaginary, since the Born from a Wish Scenario is introduced, but again from her ability to die, come back to life and not remember anything about it. Still, it's hard to suggest that she is Mary incarnate. I'm more inclined to believe that she is merely the projection of Mary from James' mind, which also inclines me to leave the door open on the subject of projection.

Laura is the strongest case to believe is real, because of her interactions with the other characters in the game. But, again James has no recollection of her, nor any proof prior to entering Silent Hill. Though Mary's letter to Laura suggests Mary's knowledge of her, where did it come from? Just as James' letter from Mary was fake (the one in your inventory), maybe this one is too. However, I find this case to be very depressing and not really conclusive. I'll leave this open for right now.

So, I guess in summation, Angela is probably imaginary, Eddie isn't sure, Maria is most likely, and Laura probably isn't, but still not sure. This isn't the final word, but merely my interpretation of things.

[StarZander]

Hmm... That's pretty good. But it seems as if Maria was a person of her own at first, and then slowly became Mary... Or something. Wasn't she trying to end her own life, with that gun, at first? If so, then maybe she wanted to commit suicide, because she felt she was changing into Mary, and didn't like it. It scared her. She felt helpless or something. It made her feel bad, or depressed her... who knows. But she wanted to die because of it. But then she turned into Mary even more, and Mary took control. Oh well, this is really reaching but.... I don't know.

On another note... I don't remember if we went through this... But Angela, Eddie and James all committed crimes, and was therefor in Silent Hill... But not Laura? Why was she there? In the cemetary at the end, James, Angela and Eddie have their own graves there. Aswell as other criminals, right? Walter Sullivan was there too, I think. But no place for Laura.

[StarZander]

*BUMP*

Don't want this to die.

[Eccles]

...

...

dude...Laura is real.
She's a little girl whom mary wanted to adopt (Mary wrote a letter to Laura which she gave to Rachel the nurse saying she was going to adopt her)

And this is why Laura helps James. Why is she so mean to him? He's mean to her...
That and, y'know, she's a kid and thats what kids do.

She wouldnt have known she was locking James in the room with the hangers...because she doesn't see the monsters.
Im sure I dont need to tell y'all why this is.

However, a dead dog is found in one of the back alleys before the apartments. Perhaps Eddie is reliving his past sins, or perhaps his reality is being manifested in Silent Hill.
Oh jeezum H crackers...don't tell me I need to explain to you the principle behind silent hill 2.
They only made it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS in the game...

[m68030]

Side note:

I'm looking at starting a Silent Hill themed MUD. If I did, who would be
interested in supporting such a project? It would be run on the BBS
I run, http://silenthillbbs.dyndns.org/bbs.htm

For those who are not familiar with MUDs, it's essentially a combination
of a chatroom and an MMORPG. The world would be able for
users to add to it, creating new locations and what not. Basically people
involved would be creating the town in which to live and interact
(also fight off monsters).

Anyone interested?

[Eccles]

I would, buuuuuuuuut....I dunno

[ifirit]

An MUD of the Silent Hill world would work if the members are good storytellers. Truthfully, I've seen it done before and response wasn't that great. I just don't think this is the type of game for that.

Eccles, my theory about Laura is unconclusive. I was trying to adhere to the overall theory of projection. But like I said before, Silent Hill 2 makes it hard to distinguish what is real and what is not. However, as I consider the evidence, there is a greater overall amount that suggests Laura is real. Mostly from her interactions with not only the characters, but the environments as well, such as locking James in the Hospital room. Still, this evidence is open to interpretation of whether it actually happened or was only percieved. i.e. The door was never really locked, James only thought it was since he heard Laura lock it. I really can't say which is true right now.

If you have any insight into the matter, I would be happy to hear it. I'm still trying to put things together and any additional input would be helpful.

Anyway, I've being looking into Silent Hill 3 recently, because several story elements have boggled me since the beginning and have conflicted with my theory about Silent Hill 1. Well, I've been trying to understand the overall plot of this game and here's what I have so far.

Silent Hill 3 & 1 Spoilers
Claudia (age 6) became friends with Alessa Gilespie (age 7) while in school. I believe that because Lenard was involved with the cult, Claudia was allowed to see Alessa at the Hope House/Gilespie residence. These two friendly children enjoyed their time together, well, as much as two abused children could in a small rural town. Then, the two were torn apart by the fire when Dahlia wanted to extract the power of god. Like most people, Claudia assumed the worst. She was gravely heartbroken and had noone to turn to. So, she turned to her "faith." (All this occurs before you even put in SH1.)

But then something strange happened. Alessa was brought back to life as the Mother of God. Mind that Claudia didn't know Alessa was in the hospital the whole time. Anyway, Dahlia merged the two halves of god and tried to open paradise. However, Harry's actions prevented this from happening. He then escaped with the baby that Alessa gave him. I can't explain why, but the cult knew what was happening in Silent Hill, even Claudia. Fearing that she would lose her only friend again, Claudia tried to get Alessa back. It took her 17 years to find her, but Claudia eventually found her friend.

However, things change after such a long time. Heather forgot her past and Claudia became twisted by hate, jealousy and self-righteousness. Claudia confused happiness with Alessa and paradise. She thought she could find love from her god. She murdered her best friend's father to try to gain her happiness. Claudia became more of a monster than any of those Heather saw.

There were those who tried to stop her. Vincent lost his life trying to prevent Claudia from corrupting their god. Douglas became aware of her actions and tried to stop her himself. He became injured in the process. Lenard tried to stop her too, but she imprisoned him in the hospital. Claudia hurt anyone who got in her way and had no second thoughts about it. But, eventually her actions came back to her. The pain she caused Heather lead to her demise. That is where the story ends.

So, it seems that SH3 is the story of Claudia's attempt to find happiness and her path of destruction as told though Heather's eyes. Sad and a little disappointing. I'll bring up some questions about this game in the next post.

[Eccles]

Still, this evidence is open to interpretation of whether it actually happened or was only percieved. i.e. The door was never really locked, James only thought it was since he heard Laura lock it. I really can't say which is true right now.
Laura DID lock the door, though...
James tried it and it wouldnt open

[StarZander]

Wait... I thought Claudia said Alessa was her sister?

[Eccles]

the solution is simple.

Look in the manual for the last names.

[StarZander]

the solution is simple.

Look in the manual for the last names.

That could work, if their last names were actually mentioned in the manual, which they aren't.

[Eccles]

I say, that's dash cunning of them...

[Eccles]

Oh yes...a notice to whoever it was wanted to know who that track came from in the SH2 soundtrack that wasnt in the game (Terror in the depths of the fog)...

It's on the DVD that comes with the game.
At the part when it talks about casting the voices of the characters.

...just thought you might like to know.

[Lynsent]

(As for the guy shot in the appartment being shot by Eddie, I'll have to challenge that one, since Eddie shot the guy in the knee. He tells you in the meat locker "He'll have a hard time playing football on that knee now!")


That doesn't mean he didn't put an end to his misery by shootin him in the head from behind... he's a madman afterall...

[Risks of spoiling...]





I have to put a theory of mine about the James/Maria relation.
Someone's been saying that James is supposed to leave the town with her but that then he realises that she is nothing but his own view of Mary.
Considering the overall theory that Silent Hill is a place where your fears, memories and feelings become material, we can understand easilly that Maria is a creation of James's wicked mind. But we have to notice that she is the character that has the biggest amount of symbols around her.
Come to think of it : When James first meets Maria (in the park), she is surrounded by fog (which is a symbol of hallucination and/or memory), which supports the fact that she is not real, even if she seems real at this point.

Then we can notice the symbol of her double killing and the fact that she gets mad at James (and her "amnesia"). This is (from my POV) a symbol of James's brainstorm between his willing to forget Mary's death and his eternal love to her (and obviously a metaphore of his own sin). The fact that Maria resurrects and forgets about the scene where she got stabbed represents , for me, the fact that James wants to retrieve his wife and his desire of being forgiven by her.

Last point (Hurray !! ^^ lol) : We know that James first wanted to escape with Maria (didn't he promised her ? :whatevaa: ). But as he realises that she is his own representation of Mary, he realises that this is gonna be impossible... Then it explains (IMO) why she is stuck in the labyrinth's jail (the labyrinth symbolysing for me the fact that James is getting a huge mind struggle to understand why he is stuck in such a hell). This Jail then seems to be the symbol of Maria's unbreakable link to Silent Hill and the fact James is coming completely realize that she is just a mirrored image he made of Mary...


Phewww... Finally reached it ! :D . Now I'm gonna go thinking about my overall theory that the town creates images of the characters' subconscious and I hope this sounds satisfying to you...

Next one will be more nerdy, lol!

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 2 & 3 Spoilers

Wait... I thought Claudia said Alessa was her sister?

Easiest answer: Read Claudia's birthday card. That explains the bond between Claudia and Alessa.

Besides, the term sister is also used in the casette tape found in Father Vincent's room. Doesn't mean Claudia is Vincent and the other lady's sister, now does it?

That doesn't mean he didn't put an end to his misery by shootin him in the head from behind... he's a madman afterall...

According to the order in which Eddie explains his story, he shot the dog first. As he was watching it die, someone found him and (I presume) saw what he had done. Fearing punishment for his actions, he shot the guy in the knee and ran away. I assume that was recently before he came to Silent Hill. We don't have any evidence that he killed the football player (the guy who got shot in the knee as I call him). It might be good to provide some evidence of your theory and explain its meaning and your reasoning.

I have to put a theory of mine about the James/Maria relation.
Someone's been saying that James is supposed to leave the town with her but that then he realises that she is nothing but his own view of Mary.
Considering the overall theory that Silent Hill is a place where your fears, memories and feelings become material, we can understand easilly that Maria is a creation of James's wicked mind. But we have to notice that she is the character that has the biggest amount of symbols around her.
Come to think of it : When James first meets Maria (in the park), she is surrounded by fog (which is a symbol of hallucination and/or memory), which supports the fact that she is not real, even if she seems real at this point.

Your evidence here is a little weak in trying to reinforce the theory of Silent Hill as place that projects a person's inner thoughts. Though, Maria is surrounded by fog in the park when we meet her, so is Laura and Angela. The entire town is surrounded by fog. Does that mean the whole town is imaginary? Is the association of fog with hallucination and memory strong evidence that Maria is not real?

Then we can notice the symbol of her double killing and the fact that she gets mad at James (and her "amnesia"). This is (from my POV) a symbol of James's brainstorm between his willing to forget Mary's death and his eternal love to her (and obviously a metaphore of his own sin). The fact that Maria resurrects and forgets about the scene where she got stabbed represents , for me, the fact that James wants to retrieve his wife and his desire of being forgiven by her.

I don't think your evidence is supporting your theory here. The fact that Maria keeps dying has a greater representation of Mary punishing James for his actions, by losing Maria over and over again. Though it does bring out James' feelings of love for Mary, it's mostly used to hurt James by re-opening his wounds. Her "amnesia" is just a tactic to confuse James about his sanity, to get him to lower his guard and to allow Maria to seduse him, exposing his weaknesses.

Last point (Hurray !! ^^ lol) : We know that James first wanted to escape with Maria (didn't he promised her ? ). But as he realises that she is his own representation of Mary, he realises that this is gonna be impossible... Then it explains (IMO) why she is stuck in the labyrinth's jail (the labyrinth symbolysing for me the fact that James is getting a huge mind struggle to understand why he is stuck in such a hell). This Jail then seems to be the symbol of Maria's unbreakable link to Silent Hill and the fact James is coming completely realize that she is just a mirrored image he made of Mary...

I like the theory about the jail representing the unbreakable link to Silent Hill. I think mostly because of how Ernest asked Maria if she believed in fate. She responded no, but after speaking with Ernest, she started to realize her role in James' search. Sort of that she was destined to meet James and fulfill her role in that town. You see, Maria's desire was to escape the town and find other people (she even tried to kill herself to escape her destiny), but ultimately, she gave up on it and went on to play her role.

More people should play the "Born from a Wish" scenario because it gives more insight into Maria, the town and the issue of the gods.

EDIT: On a very enthusiastic sidenote, keep an eye out for "Siren" (or "Forbidden Siren" in Europe). It's another survival horror game with the focus on psychological thriller. It's being directed by the director of the original Silent Hill, Keiichirou Toyama. It looks pretty scary and I hear has some cool elements added to the game play, such as "Sight-Jacking" (which is a psychic ability that allows you see through the eyes of other characters and enemies).

I have a trailer here (http://media.felixmcli.org:90/siren/siren-trailer.mpg). (Link Dead) It's 21.9 megs. If the server is busy, wait a while and try again.

EDIT 2: (04-27-2006) You can visit the official Siren website (http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/siren/siren.html) to view trailers and previews of the game.

[Lynsent]

Well I think the fog in the entire city IS a symbol of the fact that the city is not ENTIRELY real
I think the city (its structure and houses) is real but I think that this huge fog covering the city is the symbolof the characters's hallucination.
Here is not a real theory... rather an opinion to begin my own theory...
But I'v read some really interesting things so far that could lead me to another way...
To be continued

when you say that my theory about Maria's deads and rebirths doesn't make sense, I propose you to think about it twice... If James Killed his wife and has remorses, all that Maria lives in Silent Hill could be what happened to Mary and what he would like to have happened then...
Gosh!! It's 4.50 AM in Paris and I'm gettin' tired ....
Gonna sleep... Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

[Night10194]

A Silent Hill MUD? Could be neat...I'd be interested.

[SlothropX]

You guys are getting weirdly complex. Maria dies in front of James repeatedly because she is a projection of his memories of Mary. She starts off as a fantasy, embodying all of the good things about Mary, but James can't keep her from also embodying Mary's darkness (implied illness, death, and attempts to make him feel guilty for not caring enough about her).

Mary didn't create Maria, and doesn't "use" her for anything. From the "Maria" ending:
Mary: And that’s why you needed this "Maria" person?
Pretty clearly blaming James for creating Maria. In all of the other endings, Maria tries to convince James to accept her as a replacement for Mary. The only slight bit of evidence for some genuine connection between Mary and Maria is Maria's musing that she feels a strange desire to protect Laura (when James never knew about Laura).
James: You really seem to care about her. Do you know her?

Maria: I never met her before. I just feel sorry for her. She’s all alone... And for some reason... I feel like it’s up to me to protect her.
But then this could just as easily be chalked up to James's notion of how Mary/Maria would feel about a little girl in a dangerous situation. It could go either way, but all the other evidence points to Maria being created solely from James's fantasies and repressed nightmares.

[Eccles]

(As for the guy shot in the appartment being shot by Eddie, I'll have to challenge that one, since Eddie shot the guy in the knee. He tells you in the meat locker "He'll have a hard time playing football on that knee now!")
That doesn't mean he didn't put an end to his misery by shootin him in the head from behind... he's a madman afterall...
Again I take evidence from the silent hill DVD...
The character designer says that the guy in the chair is James. now, we all know that, right?
Weird dead guy in the chair is James' polygon model...
But the character designer also goes on to say that this wasn't a trick used to save polygons...this is one of James' nightmares which has come true.
Also, it represents dying in front of a television...as does the little bit in Room 312 later on in the game.

Maria dies in front of James repeatedly because she is a projection of his memories of Mary
Maria dies so many times because that is James' punishment for killing Mary.
Silent hill 2 is symbolic in the way that each character has their own personal demons to fight...look at the bedman that attacks angela...
Each character is being punished for murdering somebody (or something)...and because James feels bad about killing Mary, he's forced to see her die over and over and over...

-edit-
As for where maria came from...the X-Box version of the game explains it in the "Born from a wish" scenario...
She represents James' desire to see mary again...but also represents his punishment, as I said just now.

[Lynsent]

(As for the guy shot in the appartment being shot by Eddie, I'll have to challenge that one, since Eddie shot the guy in the knee. He tells you in the meat locker "He'll have a hard time playing football on that knee now!")
That doesn't mean he didn't put an end to his misery by shootin him in the head from behind... he's a madman afterall...
Again I take evidence from the silent hill DVD...
The character designer says that the guy in the chair is James. now, we all know that, right?
Weird dead guy in the chair is James' polygon model...
But the character designer also goes on to say that this wasn't a trick used to save polygons...this is one of James' nightmares which has come true.
Also, it represents dying in front of a television...as does the little bit in Room 312 later on in the game.

Ok. Kick me if you judge me dumb but again that doesn't make evidence he wasn't shot in the head from behind. (I don't forget he's also been shot in the knees)

***
SPOILER










I can't help but wondering about one thing... In SH3, there's a scene in a library where Vincent meets Heather and tells her this :

Vincent : You're the worst person in this room. You come here and enjoy spilling their blood and listening to them cry out. You feel excited when you step on them and snuff out their lives

Heather : Are you talking about the monsters ?

Vincent : Monsters ? They looked like monsters to you ?

**Heather is shocked**

Vincent : Don't worry. It's just a joke... (insane smile)


Do you think he was really joking ???

O_o°

[Firedrake]

SPOILER
I can't help but wondering about one thing... In SH3, there's a scene in a library where Vincent meets Heather and tells her this :

Vincent : You're the worst person in this room. You come here and enjoy spilling their blood and listening to them cry out. You feel excited when you step on them and snuff out their lives

Heather : Are you talking about the monsters ?

Vincent : Monsters ? They looked like monsters to you ?

**Heather is shocked**

Vincent : Don't worry. It's just a joke... (insane smile)


Do you think he was really joking ???

O_o°That part REALLY pissed me off! There I was thinking that maybe they'd insert some HUGE moral quandry in the SH series, really making us question what we were doing, but no, it's all a fucking joke. :roll:

Talk about smothered hopes..

[StarZander]

-edit-
As for where maria came from...the X-Box version of the game explains it in the "Born from a wish" scenario...
She represents James' desire to see mary again...but also represents his punishment, as I said just now.

Are there any differences between the X-Box verion and the PS2 version of Born from a wish?

[StarZander]

As for where maria came from...the X-Box version of the game explains it in the "Born from a wish" scenario...
She represents James' desire to see mary again...but also represents his punishment, as I said just now.
If I recall, the Greatest Hits release of SH2 for PS2 includes the extra "Restless Dreams" scenario as well as the extra endings. Any confirmation on this?

Restless Dreams? Is that the same as Born from a Wish? Atleast here in Europe, there was a Silent Hill 2: Director's Cut edition released where the UFO ending was added, and the extra "Born from a wish" scenario where you play as Maria.

Btw, that Born from a wish scenario was the scariest Silent Hill experience I've had. A big part of that was becuase there were no radio or flashlight. Gonna have to try playing the rest of the games without those...

[ifirit]

Btw, that Born from a wish scenario was the scariest Silent Hill experience I've had. A big part of that was becuase there were no radio or flashlight. Gonna have to try playing the rest of the games without those...

You're gonna have to. They're removing the radio from the series. I guess the programmers are tired of having to incorporate it into the game. By the way, the PS2 Greatest Hits version is the same version as the X-Box Restless Dreams version.

I think I said this back in the beginning, but Silent Hill 2 reflects what you bring to it, i.e. how you play the game and how you interpret your surroundings. Every interpretation is unique and that is the fun in playing it. (As Israfel put it, it's video game art.) However, you are directed to certain conclusions based on the events that occur. My goal was to look at all these events to try to reach the most appropriate conclusion.

I want to include as many viewpoints as possible. However, not all will fit because of contrary or inconclusive evidence. Also, there are a lot of unspoken assumptions made that I want to avoid.

With that said, I didn't say that anybody's theories didn't make sense, just that the cases and evidence they were showing didn't fit the conclusion. Either, there were unspoken assumptions made, missing pieces of explaination, or the reasoning that lead to their conclusion was disjointed. I know that I can be held to fault, but I try to offer as much as I can in my posts.

So, trying to tackle on the subject of Maria right now is complicated. I need to think more about the her character and motivations before I say anything else. To tell you the truth, I really should set up a character analysis of each person/player/role in the game individually and then try to tie every one together to gain the overall perspective.

One last thing, when considering Maria's feelings about Laura, also consider Maria's feelings about Amy. Though seemingly different, they do share a lot of strange coincidences. There are also some small details to note about Amy from Maria's conversations with Ernest. I'll leave you to discuss the meanings.

[SlothropX]

Maria dies so many times because that is James' punishment for killing Mary.
Silent hill 2 is symbolic in the way that each character has their own personal demons to fight...look at the bedman that attacks angela...
Each character is being punished for murdering somebody (or something)...and because James feels bad about killing Mary, he's forced to see her die over and over and over...

Well, to clarify, the other half of why Maria was born of James's wish was to punish him for his repressed crime.

James: I was weak. That’s why I needed you.... Needed someone to punish me for my sins.... But that’s all over now.... I know the truth....Now it’s time to end this.

So, Maria isn't a form of punishment consciously sent down against James, but rather his masochistic picking at the scab of denial. While the Old Gods do slumber in Silent Hill, we have no indication that they spend a lot of attention passing judgment on the who-smothered-whom details of mortal life. Rather, by the nature of the place, people create and battle their own personal demons.

A somewhat fine point, maybe, but it ruins the entire point of the series when people personify the forces of Silent Hill, as if these ancient gods had nothing better to do than watch James on their demonic TVs for a few years, and decided that the feller needed to learn his-self a lesson. It destroys all of the psychological themes of the games to misconstrue that all of the events are orchestrated by an external entity. Well, other than the dog in the control room.

But all of this should be pretty obvious. Can't we discuss some stickier points, like whether Laura was real or not?

I'm in the real camp. She eats pizza with Eddie, while Maria makes lame excuses to avoid entering the bowling alley. Maria gets ill and has to stay behind right before James catches up to Laura, preventing them from meeting. We only have Maria's word that she chased Laura after the bowling alley. In summation, Maria maintains a pattern of avoiding interaction with anyone but James, while Laura is free to interact with anyone. Not iron-clad, but about the best relevant evidence I can find.

[Eccles]

Because Maria isn't meant to be seen by anyone else.

Of course, this doesn't explain why you can see angela's nightmares (Bedmen)

[Firedrake]

What's funny about the born from a wish scenario is that you get a 10 round revolver. >.>

[Lynsent]

Because Maria isn't meant to be seen by anyone else.

Of course, this doesn't explain why you can see angela's nightmares (Bedmen)

...Crap ! My theory tears down with this constatation...
Anyway it was really not something relyable so... Have to build another ^^

[Eccles]

Theory +1

On the silent hill soundtrack, the track which plays when Maria dies is entitled 'Magdalene'

Now, I dont know how many people know their bible stuffs...but Mary Magdalene was of the people who found Jesus had come back to life.

Mary Magdalane, see? (Mary!)
And in some stories, she's called Mary of Magdalane (or Maria Magdalane!)

Just something fun to think about.

Have I mentionned the silent hill medley I penned in ICT today?