Regular system hangs in Windows XP. :(

[zircon]

I got a Q9450 processor which I had professionally installed last month at Micro Center. Since then, I began having problems with system hangs. I'm not positive the processor is the cause, as the first hang wasn't until at least a week or two after I got it, but they've definitely been regular. I've gotten maybe 10 total. The system just freezes completely; no noises or error messages, nothing in the Event list.

I've installed two new pieces of hardware since the new processor, which are USB-only (Printer + USB Mic), but the hangs happen even when the hardware is not plugged in (or in use.) The system has hung randomly, sometimes when I'm doing intensive stuff (eg. working in FL), sometimes when I'm just navigating folders or browsing in Firefox. Seems random. Coretemp reports my idle temperatures in the low 60c range, now that I have my case siding off. At first I thought it was a heat issue, which I suppose it still might be, but the system doesn't shut down, it just hangs.

Worth noting: I've run torture tests on all FOUR processors for several minutes, bringing the temps into the upper 70s, with no hang - plus I've seen the hangs happen when the temperatures have been as low as 63 (for the hottest proc.) I have an aftermarket cooler which I used on my last processor, and the tech who installed the whole setup also used Arctic Silver coolant.

Another thing worth noting is that the tech did need to flash my BIOS (ASUS board) to install the Q9450; it would not post without the update.

I have probably installed and uninstalled new software since I got the new processor, but in the last 3-4 years I've never gotten hangs like this and I certainly haven't been using anything out of the realm of my normal activities (simple web browsing and music making.)

Please help! I don't even know where to start diagnosing this as there's no log or error of any kind. It's driving me crazy.

[phill]

To be honest, it sounds like a bad memory module. Bad processors tend to...pooch your system completely where memory does just what you describe. My suggestion, pull out something like memtest86+ and run it for a while and see what comes up. If you have large amount of memory 3GB+, pull a couple of sticks out to speed the process up a little. Hopefully the system locks up or reports errors early in the test process.

[Effef]

I posted this in your other thread, but the temp sensors for the 45nm Duos and Quads report almost 20c over what the temp actually is. Every monitoring program you can use will report this wrong temperature. So i am 99% sure its not heat, unless your heatsink isn't applied correctly, in which case it most likely wouldn't run to begin with.

Run memtest like phill said, that sounds like bad memory.

[zircon]

I've thoroughly tested all my memory as of a few months ago; several sticks are only a few months old. I WAS having massive memory trouble, having gone through two kits of bad RAM that Corsair sent, but the third kit tested perfectly. When I was having memory problems, I got BSODs, not system hangs. I'm hesistant to spend an entire day doing Memtest again considering everything checked out not very long ago (Prime95 did not encounter any problems either.)

[Pyrion]

I'd run the memtest anyways just to rule it out.

[phill]

I've done less work on a computer then swapping processors and pooched my memory good.

[atmuh]

something tells me you should run memtest

[Xerol Oplan]

If you got two bad apples there's a chance the whole batch was bad, and some just didn't show problems until later on.

[zircon]

OK, I'll run memtest again. I swear if it's my memory I'm going to kill somebody.

[atmuh]

OK, I'll run memtest again. I swear if it's my memory I'm going to kill somebody.

atmuh would like to volunteer

[zircon]

OK, spent the whole day memtesting all of my four sticks (total 6gb) *individually*, two full passes each, with no errors. It's not my RAM, which is what I thought before. RAM doesn't usually cause your system to hang, memory problems = bluescreens. Back to square 1. :(

[Effef]

Could be a power supply issue too, i had a brand new box a while back that would hang about 5 minutes in after boot, and it was only because the power supply wasn't giving it enough juice.

Also, you use 64 bit XP don't you? Could be a driver issue.

[zircon]

I dual-boot XP64 but I haven't used it in months, since I always need my internet connection for something and I generally keep my XP64 partition offline so it doesn't get bogged down with crap I don't need. I don't think it's a power supply issue, the PS is a year and a half old, 600w, providing more than enough for all my components. Is there any way to somehow test this, though?

I suspect it IS some kind of driver issue but I have absolutely no idea what driver that would be since I'm not getting BSODs. The frequency at which the hangs happen is also bizzarre. For example, I had one on Sunday, but then didn't have one at all until today, though my computer was running 24 hours a day. Today I got no less than THREE hangs so far. But I'm doing the same stuff every day.

[SwordBreaker]

I'm not a tech wizard here, but maybe the hangs are due to some stupid virus/malware/spyware problem. What kind of protection programs do you have?

[zircon]

I periodically run Spybot S&D, plus I have Symantec Antivirus corporate edition, courtesy of Drexel.

[Effef]

Does it ever hang when you are doing something particularly stressful? The PS could be crapping out and not providing the power when its needed. You could also download Speedfan and check if the voltages ever drop severely (several points out of spec) at any time. Outside of getting a tester and testing it, those are really the only ways.

[Jago]

zircon,

I had this same problem in 2004 with my system, and I went through the same frustrating tests: CPU, RAM, software, swapping PSUs that worked perfectly, etc. The system ran like a champ for months until suddenly it would completely hang without warning. It didn't matter what I did: music, IM, DVD, computer just sitting idle, etc.

That was until I realized the apartment management was getting all the power meters replaced with newer ones. For whatever reason, the voltage completely went goofy while this transition was taking place, and my system's PSU didn't like it at all, though all my other electrical appliances continued to work just fine. When they completed the transition, all my system freezes went away, so it was the power going into my apartment that was causing the problem, even though the PSUs were top-quality.

See if you can get an electrician to diagnose the power going into your place. Your system might be showing correct voltages, which was my case during the transition, but there could be weird spikes happening that's totally freaking out your PSU.

[zircon]

Does it ever hang when you are doing something particularly stressful? The PS could be crapping out and not providing the power when its needed. You could also download Speedfan and check if the voltages ever drop severely (several points out of spec) at any time. Outside of getting a tester and testing it, those are really the only ways.

It does hang under stress, but it also hangs when it's NOT under stress.. and most of the day it's getting taxed pretty hard (in FL.) I downloaded Speedfan and gave it a run... what should I be looking for?

Jago, I live in an apartment so I'll have to see if my landlord would go for getting an electrician here. I know there is renovation being done on some other apartments in the building but it shouldn't be affecting me.

[Jago]

Jago, I live in an apartment so I'll have to see if my landlord would go for getting an electrician here. I know there is renovation being done on some other apartments in the building but it shouldn't be affecting me.
I thought the same thing when they were replacing the power meters. They were done with my building completely, so I thought my system would be fine. Nope. It continued to hang until they were completely done, which took about a week. So I literally had a week of random hangs. Talk about frustration! Hopefully your landlord can help you out.

[Effef]

Jago could be right on this, if the power coming in to your system is surging or browning out then your PSU will throw a shit fit. Speedfan won't show anything different in this case, but if you want to look anyway it shows the voltages on the bottom of the window on the default screen.

[zircon]

In the event that it does NOT turn out to be a power problem, anyone have any other suggestions as to what this could be?

[atmuh]

In the event that it does NOT turn out to be a power problem, anyone have any other suggestions as to what this could be?

dung beetle

[phill]

I have read a few people having problems when they upgrade to the Q9450, most of them due to voltage problems. You did say the tech flashed the bios, but you may want to double check that he got the newest version for your mobo and then reset everything back to the default settings. I think intel even has a couple of utilities for check and testing your processor, may be work a look at.

[Jago]

In the event that it does NOT turn out to be a power problem, anyone have any other suggestions as to what this could be?
I just thought of something else. If you know someone with a system that works fine, see if they're willing to give theirs a test run at your place. If their system hangs as well, then it's the power coming into your apartment. If it runs fine, it has to be something with your motherboard, for it seems the rest of your components appear to be fine. Are there capacitors on the board that look like they're bulging or leaking?

Could the tech have unintentionally overclocked the RAM or CPU? That will also cause random hangs.

[zircon]

Definitely no overclocking going on... I don't see any problems with the capacitors, visually speaking, and no other electronic devices in the apartment (including Jill's laptop, though it has batteries) seem to have suffered any problems. If I had any friends in the area willing to move their desktops, I would try your suggestion, but unfortunately I do not :(

phil: The BIOS is definitely up-to-date as the old version that WAS installed did not post at all with the Q9450. We had to get the latest to make it work. I reset all the BIOS settings (but did not flash it) myself later just to make sure everything was OK.

[Jago]

Damn!

One thing to try, if you haven't yet, is to run the system with only the bare essentials: motherboard, RAM, CPU, and video. If it still freezes up with just those installed, then you know it has to be one of those. If it runs fine, then add your hardware one by one until the hang returns. Hopefully this will help.

[zircon]

OK, still having the freezing problem... it's completely random. A week went by with no issues, then I got it a couple times in the span of a few days. Also happens on my XP64 partition which I haven't touched in over 4 months (until today) so it definitely seems like a hardware issue. I really don't want to mess with the computer myself past what I've already done... it's so tightly wired that removing anything is a huge pain.

Tomorrow I'm going to take it to Micro Center and ask if they could run some diagnostics on the processor and PSU. This should cover it, right?

[zircon]

OK, not taking it to Micro Center since they said it could take 3-5 days... I can't afford to lose that much work time. However, I did find something interesting. I ran tons of Prime95 tests earlier designed to heavily stress FPU, heat and power consumption. I ran three sets of tests. The first two had errors on all cores. The third time, everything seemed to be going well, then my computer simply shut off. I wish I had been running a temperature monitor since (I'm assuming) that could have been due to the PSU OR the proc temp being too high... I really don't know which.

However, when I rebooted, the light on my firebox seemed to be blinking. I've never seen it do that so I don't know why it would. The Firebox is firewire-powered. Could this be a power problem?

[Effef]

This is really starting to sound like a PSU issue. Is there a way you could get ahold of another PSU to temporarily replace yours to see if it might be the problem?

[zircon]

No, there's no way I can get a temp replacement unless I buy one. This sucks. Also;


Sorry to double post, but an addendum...

I got another hang recently, then when the system booted, before I got into XP, I got a BSOD with the error "An attempt was made to write to read-only memory" listing a Symantec antivirus driver (.sys) as the cause. I restarted. 20 mins later I get an error while opening Winamp, IRQL_Less_or_not_Equal, which I have come to associate with RAM problems.

Now I'm REALLY confused. Could a bad PSU really cause all these problems?

[Jago]

A bad PSU will definitely cause havoc on your system, especially if it's putting out improper voltage, which could explain why your cores are reporting errors. It's too bad you don't have another PSU lying around, for that would definitely help in diagnosing your issue. Because you said your other partition exhibits the same freeze, I'm quite confident it's a hardware issue. I just thought of another caveat that causes my mom's old computer to reboot: is there anything that would cause a brief voltage drop throughout your apartment? I ask because whenever the central AC activated in my mom's house, her old computer rebooted every time, thanks to its mediocre PSU.

[zircon]

Ok, paid $43 in cab fare to get to and from Micro Center. Here's what happened.

1. My computer wasn't booting and I was getting BSODs out the wazoo. They reset the CMOS (I think?) which fixed that problem.

2. They ran extensive tests on the computer, from processor and RAM tests, to power supply (via multimeter, to check voltages), FPU/stress via Prime95, and motherboard tests (controllers and so forth.) They found NO problems of any kind. The machine was operating for over 3 hours... not a single error of any kind, not even in Prime95. When I did that at home, I got a number of errors.

3. Since I already know the problem isn't software (as hangs were occuring on XP64) we decided that it really could only possibly be two things... graphics card (we didn't run any GPU stress tests specifically) or the power from the apartment. To rule out the latter, I've purchased a battery backup with enough juice to regulate any dips in the power. To test the former, I'm going to get 3dmark or something similar and run some intense tests.

If these don't solve the problem... I'm completely out of ideas.

[zircon]

Sweet! System hung today. So, I'm exactly back to square 1, minus over $280 (cost of cab fare, diagnostics at Micro Center, new battery backup etc.)

[Dhsu]

Have you killed anybody or done any otherwise heinous deeds lately? I think somebody up there might hate you.

It really does sound like a power problem though. Does the battery backup protect against surges as well as dips?

[zircon]

Yeah, it does. It's a pretty pricey APC unit.

[phill]

APC is nice, I got myself one a while back and haven't worried about brown outs, spikes or black outs since, a good investment for any decent computer system.

You seem to be left with two options, you can beat up someone and take their PSU, perhaps not the best option, or find yourself a store with a 30 day return policy and decent PSU. You have gone out of your way to avoid replacing the PSU and if it is the PSU, all your left with is picking up a new one and hoping that it either crashes within 30days so you can return it or you fix the problem by picking up a new one.

[zircon]

Well the thing is, they tested the PSU with a multimeter and everything and came up with no problems... the voltage was perfect.

[Effef]

Motherboard power delivery issues perhaps?

[SoulinEther]

At this point I'm doubtful but have you explored the possibility that your graphics card is having troubles?

I have to imagine your motherboard is a rather expensive one and I don't know if it has an on-board video card that you can try out to see if the graphics card is the issue... If you have an old graphics card lying around somewhere, you could give it a try.

Oh, and is your current graphics card a PCI-E one? Don't they need a separate power source? I have no idea about PCI-E cards (never had a desktop with a mobo that included it), but ... well, your PSU was tested by a volt/multimeter. But my point is, if it's a PCI-E card, maybe you should try like an AGP or PCI card too, but I don't know.

And I'm sure with a professional installation and with diagnostics this wouldn't be an issue, but... your PSU has enough wattage for everything you got going on, right?

I concur with whomever suggested to run your computer in a bare-minimum fashion - especially if you want to save money by staying home and not buying additional compnents. Take out PCI cards, disk drives, whatever and see how your computer works like that.

Or it could be some motherboard issue. Hell, there's so much going on in a computer IMO which makes pinpointing a problem difficult.

...and a laptop can be ran on AC power almost exactly like a desktop... if you take out the battery ;) (not while on of course)

[phill]

Well the thing is, they tested the PSU with a multimeter and everything and came up with no problems... the voltage was perfect.

I was going to address that in my post, but got lazy...turns out I am going to do it anyways...

The multimeter will only address a very short time and a very specific condition(no load). I would put money on the cause being as intermittent as the effect it has on your system. If its a load problem, something like the PSU being unable to handle a sudden load or sustained heavy load, then the multimeter is completely useless. If its a problem with the PSU maintaining a constant output, then the multimeter could be used if you want to sit and watch it for a while...hence the 30 day return policy suggestion.

When most hardware/software fails, it is reproducible, power problems on the other hand are a bitch to deal with. If its not completely dead, then its going to screw you around and probably damage other pieces of hardware in the process.

Hell, there's so much going on in a computer IMO which makes pinpointing a problem difficult.

...and a laptop can be ran on AC power almost exactly like a desktop... if you take out the battery ;)

I'd also like to address these two points. First, the vast majority of undesired events on a computer are caused by a limited number of problems, if you have enough information on the problem, like an error message, its generally pretty easy to find the cause. Second, laptop batteries are stupid, they are very picky about how they are dealt with and doing as you suggest can cause them damage.

[SoulinEther]

I'd also like to address these two points. First, the vast majority of undesired events on a computer are caused by a limited number of problems, if you have enough information on the problem, like an error message, its generally pretty easy to find the cause. Second, laptop batteries are stupid, they are very picky about how they are dealt with and doing as you suggest can cause them damage.

First point: generally I agree with you.

Second point: I didn't recommend that one take out the battery while a laptop is ON, rather while it is off... lol.

And, if the voltage is tested while the computer is on and doing stuff with Prime95, as suggested here (http://www.driverheaven.net/guides/testingPSU/) (first google result for "multimeter testing psu"), wouldn't that catch voltage issues - too low/too high?

[phill]

Second point: I didn't recommend that one take out the battery while a laptop is ON, rather while it is off... lol.

I didn't mean take it out well running either, laptop batteries are designed to be connected all the time with either a charge being applied or drawn from them. A battery that has gone through several charge cycles only to be left disconnected for extended periods will have issues. The batteries are way to picky at the moment and I really think they need to be fixed.

And, if the voltage is tested while the computer is on and doing stuff with Prime95, as suggested here (http://www.driverheaven.net/guides/testingPSU/) (first google result for "multimeter testing psu"), wouldn't that catch voltage issues - too low/too high?

As intermittent as zircons problem is, I doubt it.

[zircon]

On a whim I called ASUS today to ask about possible compatibility issues between the P5N-E SLI (my mobo) and the Q9450. You want to know what's awesome? According to them, the Q9450 isn't even on the supported processors list for that mobo. Evidently, even with a BIOS update, the board only supports 45nm duals, not 45nm quads. 65nm quads are OK.

Now, if this were actually the case, wouldn't the computer you know.. not post? Shouldn't the problem be way worse if the processor isn't compatible? I've never had this issue before so I honestly don't know. I may have to invest into a Q6600 instead... but damn, I've already wasted so much money on this. It would be good to know how much truth there is to what ASUS says.

[zircon]

The saga seems to have come to an end. Micro Center agreed to switch out my MOBO for a newer one that is compatible with the Q9450 out of the box. Not only does everything appear to be working, but I got a gigabit NIC out of it, more USB ports, and up to 16gb of supported RAM. Oh yeah, and my temperatures? Way lower now! :D

[Effef]

You could have done that yourself and not paid someone else to do it fyi, though thats where I get my money from so I shouldn't be bitching.

[zircon]

They did it for free because they fucked up before. Also, installing a mobo is annoying, time-consuming work that requires a level of manual dexterity I do not possess.

[suzumebachi]

They did it for free because they fucked up before. Also, installing a mobo is annoying, time-consuming work that requires a level of manual dexterity I do not possess.
I thought you played piano? What happened to that dexterity? I have sausage fingers and I have no problem dealing with motherboards. The only part you need to really be careful for is installing the CPU and making sure not to bend any pins, which isn't hard to do if you're patient and you follow the directions. After that it's smooth sailing.

However, dealing with Micro Center on the other hand has its perks, because if they fuck it up you get a new one!

[zircon]

Well, you have to unscrew ALL the shit in the case, remove EVERY connection, reseat it delicately, put it all back in. There's very little space when all the fans, drives and enclosures are fastened. I had a hard enough time just putting in new RAM.

[suzumebachi]

Is it micro-ATX or something? Based on my personal experience, they're a little harder to work with due to their size, especially if you have a tiny micro-ATX tower. They also tend to have more problems (especially with overheating, which might explain that).

[prophetik]

Well, you have to unscrew ALL the shit in the case, remove EVERY connection, reseat it delicately, put it all back in. There's very little space when all the fans, drives and enclosures are fastened. I had a hard enough time just putting in new RAM.

i just saw this...since i own a p5n-e i probably could have pointed out the issue right off the bat. too bad i didn't see this before =(

good to hear you're back in black, though, man.

[zircon]

Is it micro-ATX or something? Based on my personal experience, they're a little harder to work with due to their size, especially if you have a tiny micro-ATX tower. They also tend to have more problems (especially with overheating, which might explain that).

No, it's standard ATX. My case just has a lot of metal in it, lots of stuff that needs to be unscrewed. I remember about 7 years ago I tried to put in a mobo myself and couldn't do it. Too fiddly.

[prophetik]

motherboards are complicated if you have a lot of stuff in the case - i mean, i can install one relatively quickly, but i've built SO many computers lately that i can fly if it's one i know well, like the p5n-e or the m2a-vm.