Judges and Professionalism

[Catullus]

Despite a low post count I am a long time user of this site. As a fan of video game music I do appreciate the work and time that remixers put in to the songs they make.

So what this topic is going to be about is the respect a remixer should get from his peers when he submits it to the public to be listened to. Now I understand constructive criticism is the name of the game, but if the criticism is "you suck lol, your mix is garbage" that isn't constructive at all and helps no one.

As to the why of the topic we can start and have a look at the role of the judges. It is fair to assume that their first job is to decide what gets put onto the site and all that really entails is a yes or no and briefly why. The second job is to provide constructive criticism, I would assume to give the remixer a few ideas of how he can improve, what worked and what did not. That also doesn't have to be very long.

If a judge wants to be taken seriously at no point should the post be mocking or derisive towards the remixer who unless it is a joke submission, put hard work into his remix and presumably deserves some modicum of respect.

If the site is to be successful then the people who decide the content should act in a professional and appropriate manner (aka not like immature 13 year olds) lest it reflect negatively on this very site. Sure you can be immature all you want on this site at appropriate times, but it seems definitely out of place when you are doing so while reviewing someones hard work as an official representative of OCR. Unless you want to recruit your judges directly off of 4chan I suggest that there is some kind of code of conduct for them. Feel free to keep the contents internally but still there does need to be a standard set.

I dont know if there is a judges code of conduct or not, but it was most presumably broken during the judges decision of The Leviathans submission of Chrono Cross "Stars Frozen in Time"

The judge who shall not be nameless: BigGiantCircles posted not once, not twice but 5 times in this thread (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18062) and its debatable whether any but the first were necessary or warranted at all. He definitely mocked the work of the remixer, acted like he had a vested interest in the mix not getting passed in order to prove himself right and otherwise acted like a total ass throughout the whole thread.

Some of the lowlights?

"Vig has single-handedly restored my faith in this panel."
Unnecessary, adds nothing to the conversation and portrays you as trying to influence others to vote no. Your opinion is not absolute if anything the panel should be lacking faith in you.

" Also, Larry, If I write a really stellar track, but record a 19 second series of flatulence in the middle, is that passable? :P"Unfair, completely immature and rude to TheLeviathan, you owe the man an apology.

" Guys, may I reitterate that those chants are not just bad, they're downright awful."This hardly needed its own post, was definitely rude and were hardly constructive. You had already made your point and opinion known on this previously.

In closing, feel free to act immature all you want on your own time and I am certain you will take me up on that offer. But when you do so as a judge, your job is not to be immature or rude to the remixer as that would reflect negatively upon your self and upon your fellow judges. I think BigGiantCircles should consider pming TheLeviathan with an apology for his conduct and should make an effort not to make the same mistakes in the future.

I dont believe this is a problem with other judges as I dont recall every seeing it before personally. But I believe that they should continue doing a fine job and helping this site be the be the best game music remix site on the internet. Thank you for your time.

[zircon]

OK. First of all, all the judges are well-respected. If there were any serious question about any individual's ability to do the job, we would have brought it up privately with them. BGC is an excellent judge. Let's start with that.

Second, it's not uncommon for judges to post a lot in a given thread. Judging is not just posting your opinion and then letting it go. We discuss controversial mixes a LOT. Some threads have been several pages long, and this is VERY tame compared to what has gone on before. In many cases, we have changed each other's opinions, or at least clarified our own stances better, as a result of this extended discourse. There's nothing wrong with this in the least. None of us are going to get insulted if we call each other wrong.

Unnecessary, adds nothing to the conversation and portrays you as trying to influence others to vote no. Your opinion is not absolute if anything the panel should be lacking faith in you.

Notice the :< face? He was kidding around. We do it all the time. No big deal.

Unfair, completely immature and rude to TheLeviathan, you owe the man an apology.

Nothing wrong with this quote at all. He wasn't comparing TheLeviathan's mix to flatulence. He was saying that one bad section of a mix CAN bring the rest down, which is a valid point. Whether or not you believed this section was really bad is a good question. I personally agreed with Jimmy on it.

This hardly needed its own post, was definitely rude and were hardly constructive. You had already made your point and opinion known on this previously.

The "awful" quote was harsh, yes, but again this type of language is relatively common and ALL of the judges have done it at some point or another. We get passionate when we're discussing music. Most if not all of us have been rejected before so it's not like we don't know how it feels. We try to avoid getting too heated but it happens sometimes. We're only human.

Your concern is appreciated, but nothing needs to be done differently here. Granted the spirit of your post - that we should be as professional as possible - makes sense, but we don't go out of our way to be mean and Jimmy was very constructive in his evaluation of the track. Any further discussion was par for the course - us trying to convince each other of our opinions. Believe me when I say there have been much worse examples than this before. When you go through 500+ mixes a year it's bound to happen. ;)

[Catullus]

Well first thank you zircon for demonstrating wonderfully the other side of the argument.

I dont really want to get into whether the song should have passed or not (it should have) or whether the chants ruined the entire song or not (they didn't) because im not a judge and my opinion doesn't matter :P (ok im cheating here)

I just felt offended that this judge posted 3 times about how much he hates the chanting, which we can all agree was a very small part of the song. He already said the chants sucked in his first post... case closed right?

So in my mind if hes going to be a good judge the next posts should have been: well I dont like the chanting at all, but if you are going to keep it in, perhaps build up to it more so it doesn't seem out of place, or use a different sample that might work better with the rest of the song.

Rather than just saying they suck 3 times, come up with something actually useful you know? We already established he thinks that they suck the first time.

Also I disagree with you Zircon, no matter how you look at it the thread was about TheLeviathans remix, you cant compare the song being ruined by 19 seconds of chanting with another song being potentially ruined with 19 seconds of flatulence without it being massively offensive... just not possible.

If you were in theLeviathans shoes and someone said that about one of your mixes how would you not have been offended whether it was a valid debate or not (it wasn't and even if it was that is definitely belonging in its own thread of debate not the remixers submission)

Well thanks for the fast response. It was well put I will give you that much, I almost found myself believing it for a bit, but more importantly Id like to see BGC has to say for himself if anything. :P

[Liontamer]

Well, to be honest, I thought it was out of line too back when I read it, and not just because I went YES in this case. I just thought it came off as needlessly harsh. Note "came off as", not "was". Besides being too "serious business" about it, I didn't disagree with the post, but only because the comments weren't tactful, so they were easily construed as crapping all over the track. zircon did a good job explaining the context. But I've made that mistake too, so from my experience I wouldn't have said those quotes in the first place, because it comes off as shitting on the track too hard and gets misconstrued.

Some of the comments the original poster made like BGC "looked like he had a vested interest in the mix not passing" or whatever it was, were just offbase. We don't play that game. But yeah, the 3 parts Jimmy wrote that were quoted, I thought were in bad taste and set himself up for a reaction like the original post. Again, to me it's not serious biz, or I would have taken it up with Jimmy had I felt more strongly, but I probably should have, anticipating a reaction like that. Otherwise, you get posts like this, where people THINK we're just hating on something beyond a level of reasonable criticism.

[Catullus]

Again, to me it's not serious biz, or I would have taken it up with Jimmy had I felt more strongly, but I probably should have, anticipating a reaction like that. Otherwise, you get posts like this, where people THINK we're just hating on something beyond a level of reasonable criticism.

Well to continue debate on this particular point, is there anything that should be done to try to prevent issues like this in the future? You said you saw the same issues as I when you read it as for it being perceived as too harsh and as we know perception = reality or it might as well anyway.

I guess what im getting at is there anything that can be done to prevent stuff like this on OCR's end? No im not suggesting a sensitivity class :P but certainly it wouldn't hurt for judges to be more aware of the issue and to consider how their comments might look before they post them. That can only be a good thing right?

[Liontamer]

Well to continue debate on this particular point, is there anything that should be done to try to prevent issues like this in the future? You said you saw the same issues as I when you read it as for it being perceived as too harsh and as we know perception = reality or it might as well anyway.

I guess what im getting at is there anything that can be done to prevent stuff like this on OCR's end? No im not suggesting a sensitivity class :P but certainly it wouldn't hurt for judges to be more aware of the issue and to consider how their comments might look before they post them. That can only be a good thing right?

Well, honestly, I've been doing this for 4 years, others longer, and we tend to police ourselves. Vig took me to task on this mix of a racing game that escapes me right now, but man, I just blasted the shit out of it with harsh commentary. Once he said "WTF was that?", I tempered the comments, which originally looked like I was mad at the track or submitter, even though I wasn't. It definitely happens, but stuff that even potentially comes off as being overly harsh or hateful doesn't happen often. It's pretty isolated as it is. So it's not to be dismissive, but I just don't see it occurring on anything remotely resembling a regular basis, so I think we're OK.

I know for a fact that BGC's swamped at work next week, but if you had posted this maybe an hour earlier, he would have seen it. But he'll probably reply.

[Dafydd]

I actually sort of enjoy reading the harsh comments the same way I sometimes enjoy hearing the judges panel in American Idol (or equivalents thereof). But the panels are worlds apart. The OCR panel would never tell a remixer that he's the worst remixer there is and that he shouldn't be remixing at all (the equivalent of which the AI panel say all the time). I agree it's a little harsh sometimes, and I agree that to be 100% professional they wouldn't be saying the things you quoted above. But then again, if you're used to listening to music you like, and then you listen to something that sounds completely awful, how would you stop yourself from cringing?

Maybe to trained ears, a terrible sample has more or less the same effect as flatulence itself, only more painful? Whenever someone sings, and does it off-key, I find myself making the most tortured faces. I can't help it. I agree the judges aren't 100% professional in their comments, even though this has certainly improved over the years, but I wouldn't expect them to be. They're among friends, doing something they've been doing for a long time. They probably need to cheer themselves up somehow. In judgings of my mixes, I care a lot more about their ability to pinpoint what they think is wrong with my mix than the way they say it.

That said, I estimate the amount of very good mixes that don't pass the panel to be fairly large due to most remixers never resubmitting mixes that nearly pass and that the people here are missing out on good music because the bar is set too high. Having been passed by half the panel this remix was probably pretty good and now I'll most likely never hear it. And yes, this paragraph is intented to assure you I'm not "on the judges' side" or anything.

I hope this didn't come off as an attempt to butter up to the panel. I just think you're over-reacting.

[Nekofrog]

Haha, oh wow!

[TheLeviathan]

Haha, oh wow!


Haha, oh wow is right! Just wanted to post, saying that this original poster wasn't me pissed off over a rejection or anything.

To be honest, I was slightly offended at the way BGC kept trying to drive his point home. I'm not saying those were his intentions, but it is hard to tell online. No hate towards BGC because I've always respected him as a judge, and I was actually surprised it was him saying it when I read his comments. I wasn't really that upset over it, though, so no big worries.

Thanks to the original poster (whoever you are) for looking out for us remixers. I'm pretty busy but hopefully I'll get around to fixing up the song to resub sometime soon.

[Monobrow]

Being Jake's friend and knowing how hard he worked on his song, I just wanna chime in and say that I was kinda offended too when I read the decision, and also saw how many YES votes the song got otherwise... But since I'm his friend, and know Jake's a mature cool dude about things, I knew he'd get over it and that he has the callous to move on, even if it sucks.

I think what probably sucked the most about this, is that it was the last post in that decision thread, by itself, and that probably made it sound even harsher. Sucks when you're the guy that worked on the song for six months, and that's the last thing you see about it. Judges get that final say, and you just deal with it, that's how it is here, but just pointing out the potential POV of a first time submitter seeing something like that. And why anyone would take issue at all. It might not have bothered him that much, but it did obviously bother at least one or two people, even if it was in passing (like it was for me until I saw it brought up in this thread).

[big giant circles]

Good heavens.

First of all, I owe no one an apology.

Second, read my original vote. It's plenty *professional*.

Thirdly, and I'll elaborate on this one, stop taking my words out of context. Did you even read my original vote? It mentioned things that needed tweaking, and then asked Jake to resubmit. And I never once said his track was awful. I specifically cited a single component that is, quite frankly, excessively bad.

Your reaction to my quote about the fart suggests that you (or anyone else who is offended by it) do not have the capacity to understand the concept of an analogy. Well, I'll spell it out for you to aid with your apparent tendency to overthink things.

Seeing as the chants in and of themselves were the worst part of the track (they were choppy, rigid, awkwardly placed, and the decay was cut off by the attack of the next chant, thus obliterating any intended realism and turning it into something much more grating on the ears) and therefore, I felt was a hugely detrimental element that was not acceptable in my opinion. Therefore, when I said "If I record a really stellar track but have a bunch of fart noises in the mix, is it acceptable"? Obviously, you missed the subtle praise that I actually gave the track and ran straight to the "OMG THIS IS UNPROFESSIONAL AND IMMATURE" button.

Let's see. You also missed the part where I said I promise I'm not trying to throw any hate on Jake, I'd be happy for a RESUB, but man, there's just some stuff that's gotta get changed first.

And as Zircon has already mentioned, anytime you see a :<, :tomatoface:, :P, etc, feel free to step back and take it easy in the future.

Judge status aside, I'm an established remixer. I don't flaunt it, but composing is my primary source of income. There are always going to be conflicting opinions, and I know you can't please everyone, no matter what the issue. If I wished for $100 bills to rain from the sky every Friday, someone would find a way to argue about why that's wrong, not to mention this is the internet, so the likelihood of argument is amplified. My point is, despite the fact that there are others who might disagree, even other judges, I have enough credentials to suggest that I can respectfully say I know what I'm talking about.

Again, feel free to NOT take that out of context and assume that I'm saying I never make mistakes, because obviously that is not true.

Fourthly, I hope you are satisfied with me taking valuable time out of my day to explain something that didn't need it.

Last of all, If my post seems un-necessarily rude or condescending, then it's for one or more of a few reasons:
1) Being human, you caught me in a less than chipper mood this morning.
2) I really DONT have time for this.
3) Granted the condescending/accusatory/judgemental/whatever light of your post, I felt it only natural to return the vibe.

*EDIT*
Looking back, I like what Dafydd posted.

Also, I was never trying to offend Jake. I'm sure it sucks for him to see that I pretty well scrutanized parts of his track. HOWEVER, I would only HOPE that he would ALSO realize that I'd LIKE for his track to get posted, and I gave him PLENTY of suggestions to push it above and beyond the bar.

[DrumUltimA]

Damn, Jimmy done smack-down :D

Anyway, I'm reading "Judges and Professionalism", but I feel like the mentality here is much akin to a deviantart sonic fan art circle. First of all, as someone who is constantly seeking out and dealing with criticism on a day to day basis, I thought Jimmy's feedback was actually extremely direct. I hear from people I respect and admire things like "that part was just downright awful" on a regular basis. And of course, that bit of ego that comes with being human does feel bad each time. However, that bit of ego also gets the message and I spend the next two weeks fixing whatever was wrong. Perhaps I'm not speaking for everyone, but at least for me, a site like this is about showcasing work and improving as a musician--getting my ego stroked is a nice perk, but only comes as a reward to whatever hard work I have to put in first.

Second of all, when we talk about professionals in the real world, chances are the language you'll hear really wont get much nicer than Jimmy's post. If you get hired to make music/perform music for somebody else, if they don't like what they hear they're not going to let it go nicely because they don't want to hurt your feelings. Even worse, if they do like what they hear they might not even express any sort of satisfaction. What's important to them is that they get what they want.

So this is why in general, when dealing with feedback, I follow the "leave your ego at the door" philosophy. Take any criticism, no matter how it's worded, as only rational, literal feedback. Avoid attaching an emotional element to the feedback, as well as to your response. This way, it leaves the musician less vulnerable and allows him/her to accept the information more lucidly.

[Dhsu]

Last of all, If my post seems un-necessarily rude or condescending, then it's for one or more of a few reasons:
1) Being human, you caught me in a less than chipper mood this morning.
2) I really DONT have time for this.
3) Granted the condescending/accusatory/judgemental/whatever light of your post, I felt it only natural to return the vibe.
Worst reasons ever. If you're in a bad mood and you have the mental clarity to know you're in a bad mood, then you should also have the sense to not post while you're in a bad mood.

I like you, Jimmy, you never fail to make me laugh, and I'm not wanting you to apologize or anything, but trying to *justify* a rebuttal you know is rude and unprofessional is just bad form.

[Palpable]

If I wished for $100 bills to rain from the sky every Friday, someone would find a way to argue about why that's wrong

Did you even THINK about the impact this would have on us?? Massive inflation, riots in the streets, money becomes worthless! Jeez, dude, what a stupid idea. :<

[Nekofrog]

Did you even THINK about the impact this would have on us?? Massive inflation, riots in the streets, money becomes worthless! Jeez, dude, what a stupid idea. :<

Screw you, I want my $100 :tomatoface:

[Rozovian]

Interesting how TheLeviathan seems to deal with criticism better than BGC.

[Monobrow]

Interesting how TheLeviathan seems to deal with criticism better than BGC.

Yeah wow. Well-played dude. :roll:

[big giant circles]

Worst reasons ever. If you're in a bad mood and you have the mental clarity to know you're in a bad mood, then you should also have the sense to not post while you're in a bad mood.

I like you, Jimmy, you never fail to make me laugh, and I'm not wanting you to apologize or anything, but trying to *justify* a rebuttal you know is rude and unprofessional is just bad form.

Whether or not I was in a bad mood, the points I made are totally valid. I maintain that I have the right to be annoyed by a post that implies/suggests things about me that are not true, on top of having to allocate time to respond to it.

See:

but if the criticism is "you suck lol, your mix is garbage" that isn't constructive at all and helps no one.

If a judge wants to be taken seriously at no point should the post be mocking or derisive towards the remixer

That's just putting words in my mouth AND taking my words out of context. I have every right to be annoyed by that. I downright HATE when people do that, no matter who/what the occation. Mono and Roz, that's different than dealing with mere criticism. Now, as far as *justifying* a rebuttal, Dhsu, doesn't a response as long as it's valid and sensible (plainly addresses the issues) justify itself regardless of my mood? It's not like I threw in false implications or resorted to name-calling or anything.

And somehow, things have been blown way out of proportion for this entire thread. On the whole topic of *professionalism* and *rebuttals*, you guys act like I should be responding like I'm a presidential candidate or something. I'm not trying to get elected to office, I'm trying to explain things simply. If my directness offends you, then that's something you'll just have to come to terms with. If someone asks me what 2 + 2 is, and I'm in a bad mood when I say "4", what's the problem?

For the most part, I'm a nice guy. I can say I've made more friends than enemies not only on OCR but in real life. It's true it can be said that I had a vested interest in Jake's song not getting passed in it's current form but there seem to be some folks out there who think it was my soul intention to crap on a track that was worked on for six months or whatever. I never once and never will have a vested interest in his track never getting posted. If anything, I like his track enough to bother showing so much interest as I did. It has a lot of potential. However, it could also be a lot better, and I think it be better for everyone (including Jake) when it gets posted after those quirks have been remedied.

And I also really like Doug's input, because he's pretty well on the money. If someone saying some part of a song is awful gets you all balled up and ready to go to war, then you need to do something else. Since Jake's already expressed that he's going to hit the track up and improve it, that assures me that he's in the right mind-set. And I GUARANTEE he'll be happier with the newer version. What I find funny is how others seem to be trying to find a way to be indignant for him. He doesn't need it. He's a talented guy, and I think he knows that. It's a noble intention for someone to stand up and demand that I distribute sunshine and hugs and candy to every submitting remixer, but that's not going to happen. Instead, I can only promise to give the most valid, and if called for, direct appraisal I can.

As an *official* representative for OCR, I can say that it is my job to review music and provide feedback as to whether or not it meets the site's criteria. I often choose to go a step further and throw in advice about what could be done differently/better to improve the track, whether it's above the bar or not. But let me just remind everyone that this is a volunteer thing, and there's yet to be a written handbook for us. And until that time, when I have read and signed that it is my job to sugar-coat all my feedback, what you see is what you'll get.

[Nekofrog]

GUYS.

GUYS.

Can't you see this is TEARING.US.APART?

[Tensei]

Oh great, just what we always needed, some guy who feels it's necessary to defend us from the big bad judges. Listen, maybe we LIKE getting called awful on a regular basis, you should learn to respect that.

[Nekofrog]

Oh great, just what we always needed, some guy who feels it's necessary to defend us from the big bad judges. Listen, maybe we LIKE getting called awful on a regular basis, you should learn to respect that.

Also: tacos

[DarkeSword]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/06/Crocker1.JPG

LEAVE BIGGIANTCIRCLES ALONE

[big giant circles]

rofl 10 char

[TheLeviathan]

Shariq just totally made this thread awesome.

[Dafydd]

Shariq has single-handedly restored my faith in this panel. :<

Fixed. $A char

[Dhsu]

That's just putting words in my mouth AND taking my words out of context. I have every right to be annoyed by that. I downright HATE when people do that, no matter who/what the occation. Mono and Roz, that's different than dealing with mere criticism.
Then why didn't you say so and just leave it that?

Now, as far as *justifying* a rebuttal, Dhsu, doesn't a response as long as it's valid and sensible (plainly addresses the issues) justify itself regardless of my mood?
EXACTLY. I was pretty much fine with your post until you threw out those lame reasons.

It's not like I threw in false implications or resorted to name-calling or anything.
Besides saying that he didn't even have the capacity to understand analogies? I don't exactly blame you for saying it, but it was technically an ad hominem. :P

And somehow, things have been blown way out of proportion for this entire thread.
To be fair, I think that while the OP had an annoying tone, the rest of the thread was fairly in proportion before you decided to, and excuse me for being blunt, PMS all over it.

What I find funny is how others seem to be trying to find a way to be indignant for him. He doesn't need it. He's a talented guy, and I think he knows that. It's a noble intention for someone to stand up and demand that I distribute sunshine and hugs and candy to every submitting remixer, but that's not going to happen. Instead, I can only promise to give the most valid, and if called for, direct appraisal I can.
Believe me, far be it for me to white-knight anybody (especially a person white-knighting another person), it's just those three flaccid explanations especially rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, the 3rd reason amounts to "HE STARTED IT" for crying out loud. Maybe I'm being too idealistic here, but I would've liked to think a member of the panel had moved beyond playground debate tactics. (Okay that was harsh, but it sounds cool so I'ma ROLL WIT IT. 8) )

But let me just remind everyone that this is a volunteer thing, and there's yet to be a written handbook for us. And until that time, when I have read and signed that it is my job to sugar-coat all my feedback, what you see is what you'll get.
This is pretty specious, IMO. Prot was fired for a reason, and it wasn't his work ethic.

Fixed. $A char
Don't you mean 0x0000000A char? :tomatoface:

[Rozovian]

Guys, may I state that those rebuttals (BGC's) are not just bad, they're downright awful.

But this isn't about the vote, BGC's qualifications, TheLeviathan's mix, and not really about BGC's posts here either. As I see it, this is about how submissions should be treated, which isn't with tasteless analogies and that kind of unprofessional attitude. Next time I submit something, I hope the judges won't be in that kind of bad mood, simply because while I can take a NO and go back and work on the track, I'd be offended if I got the kind of unprofessional response that BGC provided after his original vote.

Drama? this.... is... OCREMIX!!

[Vig]

A point of interest:

We used to be SOO much worse about this. Case in point: http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2307

We would NEVER get away with talking like that now. Sure it was cathartic and fun, but it wasn't helpful to the remixer. Honestly though, one of the reasons you don't see stuff like that anymore is because the submissions that reach the panel (thanks to larry's bottomless supply of time and altruism) are much better these days. So if it seems like your mix is greeted roughly, you can all rest easy knowing that you guys totally rock the cock, even if your mix isn't passed.

[Fishy]

00:00 into it, and I already think its a verbatim rip. However, I was shocked to discover that I was right in the end. Original section at 1:40. I'll give credit for that. No wait, I wont.

Though I would never vote on anything but a jokemix like that, you've got to admit that its friggin funny.

[Txai]

But the older decisions were the best.

[DarkeSword]

This is pretty specious, IMO. Prot was fired for a reason, and it wasn't his work ethic.
It wasn't for the quality of his votes either. :P

[Dafydd]

Don't you mean 0x0000000A char? :tomatoface:

Maybe... I'm not really sure. I guess it depends.

[big giant circles]

I better stop posting before I lose my nomination for "most lovable" around here. :B

And I don't want Roz to run out of tissues, either :tomatoface:

Dhsu, I sais "SUGGESTS that you do not understand an analogy," you argumentative bastage :P Now you're putting words in my mouth. Also, BGC is a coverup. My real name is Prot.

And ur all fgts.

*edit*

Whoops, forgot the :<
Boy, that could have got ugly...

[Nekofrog]

I better stop posting before I lose my nomination for "most lovable" around here. :B

And I don't want Roz to run out of tissues, either :tomatoface:

Dhsu, I sais "SUGGESTS that you do not understand an analogy," you argumentative bastage :P Now you're putting words in my mouth. Also, BGC is a coverup. My real name is Prot.

And ur all fgts.

*edit*

Whoops, forgot the :<
Boy, that could have got ugly...

You made your bed, now lie in it.

Who's ready to start the official "remove BGC from the panel" petition?

[Dhsu]

It wasn't for the quality of his votes either. :P
That was more or less my point. His actual votes were quality, but djp finally had enough of him being a arrogant, self-righteous jerkhole, which does not lend any sort of support to Jimmy's implication that since his only job is to evaluate remixes and there is no judge handbook then any sort of d-baggery past that is fair game.

Dhsu, I sais "SUGGESTS that you do not understand an analogy," you argumentative bastage :P Now you're putting words in my mouth.
Fine I'll concede that, but it was still an ad hominem in SPIRIT.

Also, BGC is a coverup. My real name is Prot.
Analogies are fun aren't they? 8)

[DarkeSword]

That was more or less my point. His actual votes were quality, but djp finally had enough of him being a arrogant, self-righteous jerkhole, which does not lend any sort of support to Jimmy's implication that since his only job is to evaluate remixes and there is no judge handbook then any sort of d-baggery past that is fair game.
Except it doesn't come close to being douchebaggy. It's just being snippy/irritable. There's a difference between just being an asshole for the sake of it, and getting annoyed when someone takes crap out of context and blows something out of proportion.

[Dhsu]

On reading my post again I did imply that Jimmy was being dbaggy, but that wasn't the intention. I can definitely understand his being irritated and any sort of resulting outburst, and that's an acceptable reason in itself. Again, I'm okay with BGC's actions themselves for the most part, but saying there's no judge handbook is not a valid justification for...well, anything really.

Edit: I really am an argumentative bastage.

[big giant circles]

So, you're still willing to spoon with me at Magfest then?

[Dafydd]

So, you're still willing to spoon with me at Magfest then? :<

":<" for christ's sake! ":<"!!!

[The Vagrance]

ITT it is revealed that judges are human, anarchy breaks loose.

I didn't see a problem at all with BGC's comments. The judges aren't supposed to be some perfect deity whose opinions are fact. All the judges do is judge which songs are OCR-worthy or not. They're no different from you or I, they've just been doing this slightly longer and better. If you get your feelings hurt about a VIDEO GAME REMIX, then you need to distance yourself from your work more, especially considering that you didn't even do half of the work with coming up with a melody. You can't expect respect from every listener because none of them have the emotional attachment that you do.

[analoq]

I've said unnecessarily harsh things on the panel before. And I've duly received PMs from indignant remixers.

My response to them? I sincerely apologized and promised to be more mindful about it in the future. And I tried to keep those promises.

Most judges are probably open to this sort of criticism so long as it's done privately. It's a bit harder to take threads like this seriously.

[Dhsu]

So, you're still willing to spoon with me at Magfest then?
You know it, sweetcakes:

:< :<

^ (me and BGC)

[Dafydd]

Now you're putting what I said out of context.

[Monobrow]

Also, BGC is a coverup. My real name is Prot.

And ur all fgts.

*edit*

Whoops, forgot the :<
Boy, that could have got ugly...

I was scared for a minute, really really scared... Thanks for the edit!

[DrumUltimA]

I was scared for a minute, really really scared... Thanks for the edit!

loooooooooooooool

[Catullus]

Well I realize that this thread has taken a very lighthearted turn and although it pains me to take it away from that, I dont want to have missed my chance to have a serious response to some of the things that were said earlier on. I do apologize for this :P

First of all BGC, if this is a waste of your very busy time you dont have to respond and while I fully realize my advice is completely unsolicited there are a couple of things I just cant let you get away with and perhaps thats a sign of my own immaturity (sorry)
I assure you that while its safe for me to assume you will take this entire post as a personal attack that is not the intention


Second, read my original vote. It's plenty *professional*.I obviously had no problem with your original post and even said so, its pretty much every single post after that at issue. First and foremost you cannot say w/e you like and then put a smiley face afterwards and think that its okay. It just doesnt fly in the real world sorry. Its akin to saying something mean and being like Just Kidding haha you cant be mad because I said just kidding.

Random Example of this and its not directed towards anyone and of course for examples purpose it is an extreme however its just to demonstrate the absurdity
Wow this music is terrible it sounds like someone inserted a penis into my ear and then violated me for 4minutes :<:tomatoface: While haha funny its just completely immature to think that because you put a :< its okay and wont hurt anyones feelings or make you sound like a dick.

Try it in real life, next time your girlfriend makes you some food tell her it tastes like shit but then say haha just kidding... im sure she will appreciate that! who wouldn't?

Ok moving on now suggests that you (or anyone else who is offended by it) do not have the capacity to understand the concept of an analogy. I'll forgive your apparent defensive mechanism as I understand why you said it... but the thing is, I understood your analogy quite well thank you. The problem is that it was a completely immature analogy and offensive... just because the analogy works isn't the problem, the fact that its INCREDIBLY F***ING OFFENSIVE is the problem. Like I said you wouldn't want someone making that analogy on one of your mixes and I know that for a fact just from reading a couple of your posts.

There absolutely had to be a better way to get your analogy across that doesn't make you look like a jackass... at least I hope so anyway.

Now I realize that can be construed as an insult let me assure you that its not meant as one. I absolutely know very little about you personally, however if I or some random person read that thread which this topic is based, it would be hard for someone not to think wow that guy is a jackass. Its just the natural reaction. I dont think you are a jackass however my initial reaction to reading that particular thread would bias me in that direction. So in the future if you wish for the random forum goer not to think wow that guy is a jackass, I suggest you maturely take an objective look in the mirror, reread that thread like you are reading it for the first time and its someone else posting those things and then actually look objectively at what was said. Maybe after all that you still dont have a problem with it, but at the very least hopefully you can see WHY someone else who read that thread would have a problem with it.


Last of all, If my post seems un-necessarily rude or condescending, then it's for one or more of a few reasons:
1) Being human, you caught me in a less than chipper mood this morning.
2) I really DONT have time for this.
3) Granted the condescending/accusatory/judgemental/whatever light of your post, I felt it only natural to return the vibe.Well first let me apologize if my original post was overly any of those things, it was in the heat of the moment and I was upset enough to rant that long so it probably did come off slightly too harsh (but perhaps my original post also serves as a demonstration and perfect example of why we all should be careful with our words:<), the original intention was and still is that we should treat others with respect. My creed is more along the lines of if respect is given respect is shown but its more or less the same thing.

However much like Dhsu eloquently put it you shouldn't be judging mixes or posting if you are having a bad day, go eat some ice cream and go to your happy place instead (or w/e works for you)
If you dont have time for it dont do it, simple there really isnt any need to force yourself to do something that you dont HAVE to do, especially if its going to cause you to be rude to someone who honestly seems to be a perfectly nice individual from what Ive seen of him. Its undeserved and hopefully someday you will see that there is just absolutely no excuse for it whatsoever no matter what. By you having a bad day and taking it out on someone else, they are now having a bad day too... I think you can see how that goes.

Looking back, I like what Dafydd posted.You really shouldn't, thats a very immature life view to enjoy when someone else is getting insulted. I can completely understand why its interesting to see someone get ripped on and what not and simon makes millions doing so. However I cannot believe that DJ Pretzel wants his judges ripping on peoples tracks so that the threads are more amusing to read. Maybe Im wrong but I seriously dont think that he created this great site so something like that could happen.

Also, I was never trying to offend Jake. I'm sure it sucks for him to see that I pretty well scrutanized parts of his trackI dont think that was your intent either, however intentionally or not that was the point of this thread... to think more carefully about what was said so that people weren't offended intentionally or not especially since it was unwarranted because I have this track and I know its good. If the chanting is that bad in your opinion fine, take away those few seconds and even you know the rest of the track is very good.

But let me just remind everyone that this is a volunteer thing, and there's yet to be a written handbook for usWell in all honesty there might not need to be one, but that doesn't really mean that you get a Free Pass to do whatever you want either which is what you seem to imply. I agree with Dhsu that it doesn't really mean anything.

Summation time.
Okay look I dont expect you to take this unsolicited advice and start pissing rainbows or whatever analogy you want to use :P
That said if you take just one thing from it, try to be more polite. Even you have to agree that simply the act of trying to be more polite in your responses even just a little would be a good thing. Also I will say it again, if you are having a bad day or are stressed for time perhaps avoid the judges forum?

Take care

[big giant circles]

Sweet mercy, is this still going on?

*sigh*

I've already responded to everything you just brought back into the light, and re-responding is simply beating a dead horse on both sides, so I'll leave you with this.

"He who takes offense when offense is intended is a fool. He who takes offense when offense is NOT intended is a greater fool."

It's never been my intent to offend any submitters, and if they (or you it seems) insist on finding such offense that's your own choice, but I'm not going to bother losing sleep over it.

[Catullus]

"He who takes offense when offense is intended is a fool. He who takes offense when offense is NOT intended is a greater fool."


lol i got to admit i love that quote... its very ironic in of itself.

[dPaladin]

What's all this, then?

1) BGC is a very even-keeled dude. The claim that he has a vested interest in rejecting ANY remix is total, unfounded bullshit.

2) I don't see why he has an obligation to be "professional." I prefer people to be direct rather than professional. When my music sucks, I want to hear about it and I want to hear ways I can fix it. I'm not implying that they're mutual exclusives, but his posts in that thread had a certain utility.

3) TheLeviathan isn't pissed off, but some other guy is. Doesn't that seem kind of silly?

4) What analoq said.

[Catullus]

What's all this, then?

1) BGC is a very even-keeled dude. The claim that he has a vested interest in rejecting ANY remix is total, unfounded bullshit.

2) I don't see why he has an obligation to be "professional." I prefer people to be direct rather than professional. When my music sucks, I want to hear about it and I want to hear ways I can fix it. I'm not implying that they're mutual exclusives, but his posts in that thread had a certain utility.

3) TheLeviathan isn't pissed off, but some other guy is. Doesn't that seem kind of silly?

4) What analoq said.

honestly your post hardly deserves a response as you didnt seem to read the thread and your post is very low brow. That said I had an issue with #1 and perhaps it also needs clarifying.

perhaps you shouldnt take my word for it then
It's true it can be said that I had a vested interest in Jake's song not getting passed in it's current formWhen I said that he had a vested interest in seeing it not passed thats exactly how I interpreted his posts. He seemed to be posting repeatedly to bias other judges towards his point of view and thus not get it passed. Personally I was assuming that he was doing it to prove himself right however that was an assumption on my part and one which I believe even still to be right.

That said I think i sufficiently proved he was lobbying to get the track to receive a NO vote and you aren't up to the task to proving me wrong on this sorry.

Idealistically and unrealistically speaking the judges should be listening to this track and voting on its own merits based on what THEY thought rather than what another judge felt.

Sure of course there is going to be some influencing involved, but thats a very very fine line. When it gets to the point of a judge campaigning for or against a track its crossed it.

When you say things like "Vig has single-handedly restored my faith in this panel." it can very easily be construed that he respects vig and lost respect for those voting yes as if they dont know what they are doing. Oh wait he used a smiley face never mind >_>

Whether thats fair or not, is not the point. There really should be no place for comments like that in my mind and I am rather uncompromising on this point.

Thank you for playing come again soon!

[dPaladin]

Actually, you caught me. I read the first two pages. If there is anything important in the rest of the thread, feel free to quote it at me. I'm sure it won't be any of your contributions. Your most recent post is insulting, lacking in professionalism, and demonstrates pretty lousy command of the English language. Not to mention that creating this thread in the first place was immature. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

He give the mix a "no" initially. Everything that followed, including the comment to Vig, was influenced to a degree by BGC's desire (inherent to all people) for someone to agree with him. This is an important distinction. It's not as though he influenced the other judges who rejected the remix.

That said I think i sufficiently proved he was lobbying to get the track to receive a NO vote and you aren't up to the task to proving me wrong on this sorry.
You haven't established anything. Oh wait, I haven't read the entire thread, but I can still claim this reliably because you don't have the necessary knowledge to make that claim.

it can very easily be construed that he respects vig and lost respect for those voting yes as if they dont know what they are doing. Oh wait he used a smiley face never mind >_>
There's an easy way to show how ridiculous this claim is:

Judges, feel free to speak up if you believe that BGC thinks less of you because you've voted differently than he has. On one remix.

Whether thats fair or not, is not the point. There really should be no place for comments like that in my mind and I am rather uncompromising on this point.
"In your mind?" So this entire thread was based off of some nobody's dogmatic, illogical view of reality. You believe that you can post this gigantic dramafest thread and convince anyone that a respected member of this site is up to foul play. He has been a member here for years and is on pretty good terms with everyone. He's met a bunch of the other members, including me. So when I said he was even-keeled and wouldn't unfairly try to stop a remix from being posted, I wasn't making that judgment from insufficient information (can you say the same?). He'd have absolutely no motive for doing that and no one saw it that way but you. There's an important aspect to communication that you're not getting because you don't understand the group dynamics of the judges' panel.

Yet you insist that your interpretation of the motives behind this harmless judges' verdict is the correct one. I'm sorry, but the real world doesn't work that way. In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you.

EDIT: Oh hey, amazingly enough, the rest of the thread was more of the same stuff. That kind of justifies my skipping it. You feel me?

[Catullus]

much better *applauds* if you have any qualms about how I insulted you, you only have yourself to blame. Personally I thought it was rather tame considering your original post.

Btw you shouldn't be ripping anyone else on their English. Mine is far superior to yours.

He give the mix a "no" initially.But hey lets not play this game... you are obviously not qualified to judge.

[dPaladin]

much better *applauds* if you have any qualms about how I insulted you, you only have yourself to blame. Personally I thought it was rather tame considering your original post.

Btw you shouldn't be ripping anyone else on their English. Mine is far superior to yours.

But hey lets not play this game... you are obviously not qualified to judge.
Yeah, you know, like:

BGC come down from jdgfgt mountain. He scream and hit chest with great fury. The earth tremble. He give mix a "no." He leave, and people can come out of house again.

Basically all the same shit we've been discussing in this thread.

[Catullus]

you can try to derail this topic all you want and try to turn it into a flame war if you like. You wont succeed but feel free to try anyway.

I think the topic has successfully concluded anyway so do as you like. :<:tomatoface:

[Dhsu]

there are a couple of things I just cant let you get away with
http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/1254/starwolf5lv.png

[Txai]

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3919/000do1.gif

[Catullus]

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3919/000do1.gif

i dont get it:<

[Bahamut]

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3919/000do1.gif

That just about sums it up.

[DarkeSword]

perhaps you shouldnt take my word for it then
When I said that he had a vested interest in seeing it not passed thats exactly how I interpreted his posts. He seemed to be posting repeatedly to bias other judges towards his point of view and thus not get it passed. Personally I was assuming that he was doing it to prove himself right however that was an assumption on my part and one which I believe even still to be right.
Of course a judge will have a vested interest in not getting a song he believes shouldn't pass not passed. We do it all the time, if not publically. We don't judge in little boxes and then read what everyone else said after the fact. We're a panel of judges. We discuss, argue, disagree, and try to convince.

That said I think i sufficiently proved he was lobbying to get the track to receive a NO vote and you aren't up to the task to proving me wrong on this sorry.He was, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Idealistically and unrealistically speaking the judges should be listening to this track and voting on its own merits based on what THEY thought rather than what another judge felt.No, idealistically and realistically we judge a track on its own merits and faults and also take into account what our fellow judges say about it.

Sure of course there is going to be some influencing involved, but thats a very very fine line. When it gets to the point of a judge campaigning for or against a track its crossed it.Sorry, but no.

When you say things like it can very easily be construed that he respects vig and lost respect for those voting yes as if they dont know what they are doing. Oh wait he used a smiley face never mind >_>If you construe that from what he said, you're an idiot. Plain and simple. :roll:

Oh sorry, was that unprofessional? :whatevaa:

Whether thats fair or not, is not the point. There really should be no place for comments like that in my mind and I am rather uncompromising on this point.Grow some thicker skin and don't cry on other peoples' behalf.

Thank you for playing come again soon!Lurk more.