Software/samples for orchestral music

[dPaladin]

So I've been floundering about with FL Studio off and on for several years now trying to get my orchestral arrangements to sound at all realistic. Zircon's advice threads helped me out quite a bit, but I'm still well below an acceptable level of quality.

While I'm sure I could get things to sound pretty good with more knowledge, I figured it wouldn't hurt to get better tools for the job.

First, software. I'm a composition major in college, which makes me a staff notation kind of guy. I use Sibelius to notate but it's no good for remixing because it sounds like crap (I'll get to that in a minute). I'm thinking about switching back to Finale, which I used at my previous school, but it doesn't sound much better. So I checked out profile pages for Jeremy Robson and Russel Cox and saw that they use Sonar, which I'm totally unfamiliar with.

I guess my first question is whether or not I should get Sonar or Finale or neither.

My next issue is one of samples. I have a bunch of soundfonts. Some are good and some are evil. Most are evil actually, and I've gotten very few of them to sound decent at all. So my second question is one of which sample libraries I should get.

Combining the two issues, I guess I'd really like to know what everyone uses for orchestral stuff. For the guys who use FL, what the hell am I missing. For those who use Sonar, do you use the native libraries or did you buy some better samples? For anyone who does things another way... let me know!

I know there have been threads about these topics before, but I'm really interested in the combination of both. I'd be happy as hell if I didn't have to worry about sample quality and could just let the strength of the arrangement carry my work but that's not happening until I hire an orchestra.

[Zephyr]

A large percentage, actually almost everyone that I've heard of around here uses EWQLSO, or to a lesser degree GPO (garritan personal orchestra). I've heard that EWQLSO is better for the intense epic stuff and people prefer it because it has a nice upgrade path. GPO is apparently quite good at emotional and soft music. Look into them both though, good luck.

[big giant circles]

I would wager that 99+% of all orchestral composers are using 3rd party stuff, and not native.

I might suggest grabbing something like IK Sampletank or IK Miroslav Philharmonik from Guitar Center (in store only) for $99 each. They're not the best quality, but they're decent, and they'll get the job done.

I don't use sonar, I personally don't care much for the piano roll, but it's every bit as good a program as any other DAW, it's all just a matter of preference.

[dPaladin]

Wait a second.

Can I use these libraries with Finale or Sibelius? Because if I can that would be so damn cool.

[big giant circles]

not sure about sibelius, but you can use VSTs with finale, if i'm not mistaken.

HOWEVER, I'll be honest, it is a rare thing for a composer to produce really high quality SOUNDING stuff using finale. (note, I said rare, not impossible).

you have much greater control over not only the parameters of a note (like ADSR, timing, humanization, velocity, etc) using a piano roll than a staff. I think this is probably the reason a lot of the music I've heard notated in finale ends up sounding so rigid and mechanical.

[dPaladin]

Yeah, that's true. I've recently become a believer in piano roll because of that. I wish I could alternate between the two (like in Digital Performer) but not have both of them be utter crap (like in Digital Performer).

My current modus operandi is to sequence the music either in Anvil Studio or Sibelius and import the MIDI into FL to add soundfonts and effects.

The closest Guitar Center is over an hour away but it might be worth it anyway.

[big giant circles]

The closest Guitar Center is over an hour away but it might be worth it anyway.

Call them and ask if they'd mind drop-shipping it to your home since you're so far away. You might pay a small shipping fee, but they should be willing to do that for you.

[Zephyr]

I'd like to throw in a word against miroslav philharmonik CE, I got it in the sampletank group buy and I'm not terribly impressed, however for $99 it's still an alright deal, you'd need to upgrade to do anything really nice though. As for sampletank, I love sampletank but it doesn't have a whole lot for "orchestration".

[DZComposer]

I use Cubase, with both EWQLSO Gold and GPO, with some other libraries to fill in what those lack.

EWQL and GPO are the most popular choices right now. EWQL is a tiered product. There is Silver, Gold, and Platinum. GPO is not at this time.

Garritan is going to have a holiday sale, and I know EastWest will as well through their soundsonline site, so this season will be a good time to buy.

Choosing between these two depends on what kind of music you are writing. If you want a more "Hollywood" sound, you should go for EWQL. GPO is more expressive, provided you take the time to learn it.

This is a big sticking point: GPO is different than most libraries, and relies heavily on MIDI CCs to change the sound. To get it to sound its best, you need to learn how to use the CCs. Also, GPO is sampled dry and will require reverb.

EWQL is programmed more traditionally. Another thing is that the samples are recorded in a concert hall with release tails, AKA built-in reverb.

EWQL has more articulations sampled, GPO uses MIDI CCs to simulate articulations.

[PrototypeRaptor]

There's no library as of this moment in time that I'd want to throw money on, TBH.

I was real excited about Project Sam's Symphobia, but then I was told that it was an "ensemble" sample library, etc etc - and it's damn expensive.

I'm still waiting for the next breakthrough in samples - we're getting there with things like the samplemodelling Trumpet and Sax.
(http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products.php for reference)

But I want the orchestra version, dang it! :D

[zircon]

VSL Special Edition is probably your best bet right now. It's enormous, covers all the bases, deeply sampled, and dry. If you like the idea of GPO you'll love VSL, since it's about 40x bigger and recorded much better. It's more expensive (~$450) but comes with its own custom player too. If I had to start again I'd get this instead of QLSO... which I definitely don't recommend now that it comes with PLAY (a plugin.)

[Blue123]

On the subject of PLAY, just what is it exactly? I've read about it, and the descriptions have confused me somewhat. Has it replaced the old standalone player?

[zircon]

Yes, it's a custom player designed by East/West exclusively for East/West products. It is protected via iLok (ugh) which means you have to pay $50 for a USB key just to use it, and you can't install on multiple computers without multiple keys. It is very CPU/RAM hungry, with tons of bug reports even though it has been out for over a year and a half. While it replicates most of the functions of Kontakt, it is in fact less robust (lack of scripting capabilities, for example.)

[tgfoo]

I have both QLSO Gold (both the Play and the non-Play versions) and VSL SE Extended. If I had to choose one to start with I'd go with the non-Play version of Gold in Kontakt 2 or 3 since you can do more tweaking and scripting there. Though, I haven't yet run into any major problems while using the Play version, but it isn't as tweakable.

If you're unfamiliar working with orchestral samples, I'd definitely go with QLSO over VSL SE. QLSO sounds a lot better out of the box. With VSL you're going to need a good reverb (since it's recorded completely dry), you are going to need to know how to position instruments in a stereo field (since it's not pre-panned/recorded in orchestral position), and a lot of their instruments need to be EQ'd to sit better in a mix with each other (if you search on their forums you can usually find tips and user presets that will provide a good starting point for that).

[dPaladin]

I have both QLSO Gold (both the Play and the non-Play versions) and VSL SE Extended. If I had to choose one to start with I'd go with the non-Play version of Gold in Kontakt 2 or 3 since you can do more tweaking and scripting there. Though, I haven't yet run into any major problems while using the Play version, but it isn't as tweakable.

If you're unfamiliar working with orchestral samples, I'd definitely go with QLSO over VSL SE. QLSO sounds a lot better out of the box. With VSL you're going to need a good reverb (since it's recorded completely dry), you are going to need to know how to position instruments in a stereo field (since it's not pre-panned/recorded in orchestral position), and a lot of their instruments need to be EQ'd to sit better in a mix with each other (if you search on their forums you can usually find tips and user presets that will provide a good starting point for that).
I can't seem to find a non-PLAY version of EWQLSO. I was looking for Silver though, but still.

[zircon]

Right, which is why I'm recommending VSL. Non-PLAY QLSO doesn't exist anymore.

[PrototypeRaptor]

Do they let you do license transfers anymore? If so you could always check ebay and such.

Also, just throwing it out there, I've been impressed with kirk hunter's libraries...don't know what you all think, but he's done some cool scripting in K2.

And the entry library is $200 or so - much cheaper than VSL.

reference: http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/

[zircon]

They never did license transfers, East/West has had pretty tough EULA policies. Kirk Hunter libraries are pretty nice but not a good starter library since they require a sampler like Kontakt (which in and of itself is considerably more expensive.) Also, while the programming is great, the recording quality is not on the level of either QLSO or VSL.

[PrototypeRaptor]

Ah, that's too bad about the EULA. I have the QLSO (the old one) as well as K2, and I find myself using the K2 samples much more than the east west library - which are VSL if I'm not mistaken. Go figure.

so here's what I've pieced together from various threads regarding the "best" orchestra library:
VSL/QL for strings
Project SAM for brass/percussion/"epic" sections
Ivory for pianos

Though, I keep wondering if there's some indie developer somewhere that has the most awesome orchestra samples ever that we just don't hear about...

Also, while we're hunting for the ultimate orchestral library - the garritan solo instruments are AMAZING. Why doesn't he make string sections like that...?! I would buy a copy so fast my wallet would catch fire

[zircon]

That technology was made in collaboration with the folks who are, incidentally, now working at SampleModeling. There was some sort of legal dispute as I understand it and now Gary can't use that technology. A shame, I know.

You might consider Wallander Instruments have their "WIVI" products which are basically superior for brass sections. Even better than SAM by some accounts. VSL's solo string collections are absolutely oustanding too, IMO.

[Blue123]

I've been noticing A LOT of new products appearing on...

http://www.soundsonline.com/Classical-Orchestral-c-3.html

... They range from ethnic instruments to chamber strings, and, if I may add, a very beautiful Celesta. Most don't seem too exciting, but depending on what you want, there might be some hidden gems in the pack.

However, regarding GPO I've had problems with it. This is most likely my fault, but I'd just like to be sure. I managed to pick up an old version of GPO off a friend a while back, so I installed it and upgraded to KP2. In both (the old and KP2) I haven't been able to get dynamics. Is this because GPO relies on the Mod-wheel and isn't touch sensitive? Unfortunately, my current keyboard does not have a Mod-wheel...

[DZComposer]

I've been noticing A LOT of new products appearing on...

http://www.soundsonline.com/Classical-Orchestral-c-3.html

... They range from ethnic instruments to chamber strings, and, if I may add, a very beautiful Celesta. Most don't seem too exciting, but depending on what you want, there might be some hidden gems in the pack.

However, regarding GPO I've had problems with it. This is most likely my fault, but I'd just like to be sure. I managed to pick up an old version of GPO off a friend a while back, so I installed it and upgraded to KP2. In both (the old and KP2) I haven't been able to get dynamics. Is this because GPO relies on the Mod-wheel and isn't touch sensitive? Unfortunately, my current keyboard does not have a Mod-wheel...

Yes, GPO requires mod-wheel for volume. During the KP2 update, the default value was set to zero. A good work around is to adjust it in the player. Garritan recommends setting a mod value at the beginning of the sequencer track before any notes as well. To use GPO effectively outside a sequencer, you really need a good MIDI controller with mod, pitch, a sustain pedal, aftertouch and a bunch of programmable knobs. Mine lacks aftertouch so I had to assign the CC to an analog pedal.

Speaking of GPO, Garritan launched their holiday sale. $100 for this week only. http://www.garritan.com/ It also applies to their Jazz library, and their concert/marching library (note: this isn't library to boost your brass power) and the download version of their awesome piano.

That VSL library looks interesting, but it requires an additionally-purchased dongle too. Unless you have another Synchrosoft dongle (IE the one that comes with Cubase), they claim it will work with other Synchrosoft dongles. If that's your reason to reject EWQL, then this isn't a better choice. Sadly, it is getting harder to find good libraries that don't do this nowadays. DRM sucks.

[zircon]

Well, it's not a reason to reject QLSO, it's just an annoyance. The VSL dongle is an annoyance also, but the difference is that the VSL player is awesome and PLAY sucks.

[PrototypeRaptor]

MAN those wivi instruments are amazing. And supposedly he's going to be doing strings as well?

It's too bad I'm sure they're so expensive - they don't even let you see prices online; you have to call. haha

but, the playability of the instruments is quite unbelievable - keyswitches? what are those again? :-P

go check out the demo, mess with the ensembles and the breath control...
profit??!?!

[Blue123]

Keyswitches are, on a basic level, keys that switch between different sounds. For example, you have a trumpet sound, and a mute trumpet sound. Well outside of the range of the trumpet, a note may be programmed that, when you play it, will switch to the other sound. Not too sure if you were serious here, so I thought I might as well put up a small explanation, heh.

[White_Penguin]

I just got QLSO Gold and Goliath some days ago (Soundsonline), and the only reason i bought em, is because of game music production/remixing.
Not so fan of the PLAY.sll as i can only load one instrument per plugin, not change intrument all the time without stacking instruments playing one midi in FL studio. But i'll manage to control that soon, as I installed em yesterday :)

cheers
//happy buyer Sinfour

[tgfoo]

You should be able to load at least 16 instruments into a single instance of PLAY. Just assign each instrument/patch to a different midi channel and then assign the midi tracks in FL with the corresponding midi channels.

[Moseph]

VSL Special Edition is probably your best bet right now. It's enormous, covers all the bases, deeply sampled, and dry. If you like the idea of GPO you'll love VSL, since it's about 40x bigger and recorded much better. It's more expensive (~$450) but comes with its own custom player too. If I had to start again I'd get this instead of QLSO... which I definitely don't recommend now that it comes with PLAY (a plugin.)

I just bit the bullet and bought the VSL SE bundle (the standard SE library with the SE Plus expansion's additional articulations). SE by itself is currently discounted to $375 (I think until Jan. 15th), and the bundle is currently $750 (both from audiomidi.com (http://www.audiomidi.com/manufacturer.cfm?mid=210)). Judging by the demos I've heard, I've always preferred the VSL sound to the QLSO sound, but I can't give my actual impressions on the library or interface software since it hasn't arrived yet.