Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes killed (C&D story not proven)

[Kiyobi]

I dunno if you guys ever heard about Crimson Echoes. I haven't either until I stumbled upon this.

http://kotaku.com/5249897/square-enix-putting-the-squeeze-on-chrono-trigger-fan-projects

Some of you might be thinking they were gonna get them for copyright sooner or later, but throwing a C&D right before planned release?

What asshattery is this?

[Nekofrog]

Oh, please.

This is zeality we're talking about here.

1. he's a dick
2. he's a moron
3. he's absolutely obsessed with chronotrigger to the degree of insanity
4. he's kind of an attentionwhore

He's the same guy who, around these boards, used to make every single post in every thread he entered somehow relate to Chronotrigger.

That's nice zeality but i don't think the average rainfall of the coastal lowlands of Venezuela has anything to do with chronotrigger

This is all just a publicity stunt, a way to get out of the project that he knew he would never finish.

[Dj Mokram]

Wow this is sad, I made a fanfare for this. :<
It seemed pretty real, as all other CT projects were dropped at the same time.

[The Damned]

OK, so some people mucked around with the Chrono Trigger ROM, tried to make a new game out of it, and then Square-Enix squashed it.

And people are surprised by this... why?

[Schwaltzvald]

OK, so some people mucked around with the Chrono Trigger ROM, tried to make a new game out of it, and then Square-Enix squashed it.

And people are surprised by this... why?

There's been plenty of Megaman/Mario Romhacks (not clones but actual romhacks) that it would make one wonder, except considering squeenix's past behavior I suppose it's not entirely surprising. Dick move above all else for them to wait till it reached the closing stages to send a big fat C&D message.

off-topic note*

I didn't think anybody else still used ICQ :lol:

[DarkeSword]

Please. Read the supposed "C&D letter (http://crimsonechoes.com/letter.pdf)." It's so obviously fake and poorly written. Why the hell would the S-E legal department mention Prophet's Guilde and Temporal Flux without clarifying what those were? Why is Prophet's Guild italicized when Temporal Flux is not? Why isn't this letter signed by legal counsel?

Because it's a PDF Zeality cooked up himself.

This wasn't killed by SE. It was killed by Zeality who's just attention-whoring.

Thread renamed to prevent rumor-mongering.

[KyleJCrb]

Most likely. The terminology used in that letter is not even the correct type generally used in legitimate C&D letters. It is far too unprofessional.

EDIT: Yup, pretty much confirmed to be a fraud. http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.msg134196.html#msg134196

[Dj Mokram]

How mythomaniac & delusional the guy have got to be to cook something like that? :shock:

[Halt]

Could have been something really cool, something that a lot of fans would have appreciated as well. But whatever zeality is doing, its pretty lame.

[Nekofrog]

How mythomaniac & delusional the guy have got to be to cook something like that? :shock:

You don't know Zeality, do you?

[Dj Mokram]

You don't know Zeality, do you?
Not at all. Did I missed a lot? :<
Things are pretty ectic: some are still claiming it's legitimate, and other believe it...

[DarkeSword]

TRIVIA: The website Chrono Compendium actually got its start as a very large Chrono Trigger discussion thread right here on OCR's forums.

[Nekofrog]

Yeah thank god it got moved out of here.

[Avatar of Justice]

I remember that Zeality guy. When I saw the thing about a fan remake and the words "Chrono Compedium" a little voice in my head said "I wonder if that OCR douche was involved..." Apparently that voice was right.

[Native Jovian]

Did Zeality go Spram-style crazy or something? I remember him from years and years ago and he seemed pretty cool. I admittedly don't remember him being crazily obsessed with CT, though...

[SwordBreaker]

I've been browsing the forum Nekofrog posted. Apparently, it's legit. The phone number confirms so and there's a post on the main site confirming that it's legit. Even though I can see why people think this is fake.

Square-Enix USA have been very frustrating to deal with for the past few years. Not just because of these C&D letters that seemingly focus on Chrono projects, but in dealing with them as a game media site. I mean, when we try to post a video review of Star Ocean 4, they block it because they own the footage. WTF? This is free advertising for crying out loud. When we posted an FFXII import review for our site, they got really upset for some reason.

I know it's their right to shut down these projects...I just hope it doesn't come down to sending a C&D letter to OCR banning everything Square-Enix related.

[The Flame Stealer]

Yup, the letter is loosy but it IS legit. Guys, it's kinda easy to focus on a scapegoat, but Zeality was "only" a script writer in this project. The director/main programmer was someone else, and there was a whole team working on it too (I was the co-programmer).

And yes it was 98% completed. There are two old-ish trailers on YouTube showing parts of the game.

OK, so some people mucked around with the Chrono Trigger ROM, tried to make a new game out of it, and then Square-Enix squashed it.

And people are surprised by this... why?
People are surprised because this is (probably) the first 8-bit/16-bit ROM hack to ever receive a cease & desist letter. Besides, a complete CT ROM hack had already been released two years ago, Prophet's Guile. It never got C&D'ed, not until this collective letter anyway.

[Tensei]

If the writing in the romhack is as good as the writing in the C&D letter, nothing of value was lost. http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/9044/2emotsmuglol.gif

[prophetik]

You don't know Zeality, do you?

i was going to say something like this, but you beat me to it.

he was a troll and a flaming asshole. if you said anything - ANYTHING - bad about his pet game, he flipped out and sent you harassing PMs. i remember he learned something new (or thought he did, at least) about the Nu, he just flipped out. it was pretty funny.

that said, did they just delete his account, or just ban him? i don't see him in the memberlist anymore. he had a lot of posts, didn't he?

[SpanishFly]

Wow, uh...reading this thread and the links from it and stuff, I've gone through like 5 different thoughts on what happened. Now...I'm just throwing my hands up, saying "I don't know WHAT the hell is going on" and figuring eventually it'll make sense, haha.

[DarkeSword]

that said, did they just delete his account, or just ban him? i don't see him in the memberlist anymore. he had a lot of posts, didn't he?

Banned users don't show up on the memberlist.

[Meteo Xavier]

i was going to say something like this, but you beat me to it.

he was a troll and a flaming asshole. if you said anything - ANYTHING - bad about his pet game, he flipped out and sent you harassing PMs. i remember he learned something new (or thought he did, at least) about the Nu, he just flipped out. it was pretty funny.


Lord.... that could've been me.

[zircon]

Seems like no one on any other site thinks that ZeaLity would do this himself. It really doesn't make any sense that he would, either.

[Meteo Xavier]

Seems like no one on any other site thinks that ZeaLity would do this himself. It really doesn't make any sense that he would, either.

The stress of working on a huge project for years and years can make you do all kinds of things that don't make sense.

Not saying he did, I'm just saying I can definitely see his position in doing that.

[The Coop]

Should this actually be real, then allow me to say this once again...


To those who wish to make a ROM hack, or fan game, or what have you, of a popular game with a history of C&D orders... KEEP THE PROJECT TO YOURSELF. Don't post everywhere that you're doing it, don't put out trailers advertising it, and don't make a website for it. That's how these projects get found, and shut down. Keep it to yourself until it's done, THEN release it and pimp it.

How many times is something like this going to happen before people figure this out?

[zircon]

The stress of working on a huge project for years and years can make you do all kinds of things that don't make sense.

Not saying he did, I'm just saying I can definitely see his position in doing that.

But all the work was basically done. And he WANTED to do the project. If he didn't want to be involved he could have stepped out, but now you're telling me he made more work for himself dealing with this PR nightmare?

[Native Jovian]

There could be any number of reasons why he'd do this to himself. They all come down to the fact that for whatever reason (it's not actually as done as we've been lead to believe, or he wasn't pleased with the overall quality, or he just got sick of it and decided to stop regardless of everything else) he doesn't want to do it anymore, and it's a lot easier to be a victim than to be a quitter. If he gets slapped with a C&D letter, he gets to be the virtuous fan being oppressed by big bad Squenix. If he just stops and refuses to finish/release the project, then he's a loser who talked the talk but couldn't walk the walk... and might end up running into resistance from other project members who DO want it finish/released, as well.

Not saying that that's what's going on (I don't know Zeality or the situation well enough to judge), but that's WHY he might fake a C&D letter instead of just abandoning the project.

[Meteo Xavier]

But all the work was basically done. And he WANTED to do the project. If he didn't want to be involved he could have stepped out, but now you're telling me he made more work for himself dealing with this PR nightmare?

Like I say, I'm not saying thats what he did, I'm just saying its thoroughly plausible based on that letter (which I agree with Darkesword is poorly written) and what I've heard about him so far. You don't put that time and energy into a project unless you expect to really get something out of it, and if the insecurity that you wasted all that time and life creeps in, it'll build a nest, then a hive, and then it takes over to fabricate a reason to not to work on this accursed project and junk whats left so as not to remind yourself how much you gave for nothing.

Now, back on topic, did Zeality junk the project? Could he hand the project off to someone else to finish and anonymously release it to the community from there?

[SpanishFly]

The Coop kind of brings up a good point. Like...wouldn't you wait until it was done before you advertised it? I dunno, this whole thing just seems odd to me.

[Meteo Xavier]

The Coop kind of brings up a good point. Like...wouldn't you wait until it was done before you advertised it? I dunno, this whole thing just seems odd to me.


Thats a pretty good indicator, to me, that he was really wanting something out of it, like nerd fame or whatever its called.

To be fair, he likely didn't expect it to take so long, and wanted to drum up interest to:

A: Build that positive energy from well-wishers to continue working on it.

B: Build a fanbase that, if someone drops out, would be willing to help pick up the slack and find a replacement.

Its more likely, though, that it was an oversight and ego thing.

[BooDidley7]

Thats a pretty good indicator, to me, that he was really wanting something out of it, like nerd fame or whatever its called.

To be fair, he likely didn't expect it to take so long, and wanted to drum up interest to:

A: Build that positive energy from well-wishers to continue working on it.

B: Build a fanbase that, if someone drops out, would be willing to help pick up the slack and find a replacement.

Its more likely, though, that it was an oversight and ego thing.

Yeah, I'd say it's more of an ego thing. But I guess it could keep you going on a project years in the making, but given the circumstances probably shouldn't have.

It's too bad because there'd be plenty of that to go around if it they were successful and people got to see it.

The sad thing is, given the time, energy, and effort they put into this, and they probably couldn't have estimated how long it would take, they could've made their own game and maybe even made some money of it, or at least be free to have something potentially impressive to showcase to potential employers.

[Arrow]

The Coop kind of brings up a good point. Like...wouldn't you wait until it was done before you advertised it? I dunno, this whole thing just seems odd to me.

This would be the smart thing to do, but you'd be surprised how many people in ALL types of fields don't think of doing that.

[djpretzel]

Isn't there a third option here? Couldn't it be fake, but sent by someone else? Given that Zeality probably made enough enemies through his attitude & behavior, it seems plausible that the letter could be from a third party... let's say they used legit phone numbers, too - if they actually called Square to see if it was legit, it might end up "becoming" real since they probably wouldn't give the project a green light if contacted directly... just a thought.

[Nekofrog]

Here's the deal with the whole phonecall thing.

According to zeality's team, they called it up and it's "legit".

However someone else tried to call and they refused to transfer them into the legal department; instead they kept transferring them to PR. Apparently nobody had any clue as to what was going on regarding a cease order there.

Also, the e-mail included in the cease doesn't exist; it bounces back (or did as of yesterday).

Also, when Chrono Resurrection (or whatever the 3d scenario-based remake was called) was shut down, the letter THEY were sent was COMPLETELY different in appearance.

[KyleJCrb]

For the curious, here was the letter (http://www.chillingeffects.org/derivative/notice.cgi?NoticeID=1416) submitted to the Chrono Resurrection team. It was NOT sent by SquareEnix themselves, but by the law firm that represents them in North America. If the order sent to the Crimson Echoes team were legitimate, it would be extremely similar to the one sent to Chrono Resurrection, but it isn't. It's rare that a company will directly send a C&D order anyway (they will typically make their legal representation do it), which is why this whole thing seems very fishy.

[Meteo Xavier]

Anyone feel ambitious enough to start an investigation team? :)

Edit: Hmm.... if I email Square-Enix and inquire, and it turns out they DIDN'T know anything about it until I mention it specifically, wouldn't that bring it to their attention anyway?

Edit II: But... wait, the project's already "dead" so what does it hurt to poke a dead man?

I'm totally going to do this..

[DarkeSword]

Edit II: But... wait, the project's already "dead" so what does it hurt to poke a dead man?

I'm totally going to do this..

I'd argue against doing anything. Last thing we need is S-E actually coming down on romhacks.

[Meteo Xavier]

I'd argue against doing anything. Last thing we need is S-E actually coming down on romhacks.

I knew there was something I was forgetting, course I would wonder, if this is legit, if they wouldn't do that anyway.

[JJT]

CT retranslation for life

no regrets

[NNY]

Didn't the guy who was working on that Goldeneye CS mod/remake fake his death? This reminds me of that.

[Nekofrog]

No, that was Dampe of the Ocarina of Time 2d remake.

[The Author]

Dear god... What is it with the romhack world and stunts?


Also, I suspect the work was nowhere near complete, and instead of failing, he decided to kill his baby in a deceitful fashion.

[KyleJCrb]

Didn't the guy who was working on that Goldeneye CS mod/remake fake his death? This reminds me of that.

No, I'm pretty sure that actually happened.

[Kiyobi]

Looking deeper into the topic KyleJCrb posted back early on, and it looks like the whole dig is legit.
http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.msg134276.html#msg134276

I don't know about the whole OCR v. Zeality shenanigans, but it sure sounds like you all hate him. I dunno who the hell he is, all I know is that he's involved with this CE project.

[KyleJCrb]

Looking deeper into the topic KyleJCrb posted back early on, and it looks like the whole dig is legit.
http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.msg134276.html#msg134276

Not sure how that proves anything. I have nothing against Zeality, the romhack, or Chrono Compendium, but the evidence against this being a legitimate C&D order is pretty overt.

Here's something interesting; A German forum copied a post from the romhacking.net (http://www.aep-emu.de/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=54654#54654) thread that was deleted, mentioning a few of the key differences between the letter received by the Crimson Echoes team and the one sent to Chrono Resurrection.

[Meteo Xavier]

Here's something interesting; A German forum copied a post from the romhacking.net (http://www.aep-emu.de/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=54654#54654) thread that was deleted, mentioning a few of the key differences between the letter received by the Crimson Echoes team and the one sent to Chrono Resurrection.

This little story of ours got fucked up pretty quickly, didn't it?

(Suddenly, the idea of using Temporal Flux to make a ROM hack based on this wild episode forms tastily in the mind. Then Meteo remembers he doesn't have Temporal Flux anymore and is sad. :( )

[OA]

This is hilarious drama and that C&D is so so fake.

The wording is stilted, the citations are anemic, and no legal department would sign without placing a single representative responsible. If all of the SE's C&D letters were as such, without any accountability, it'd be a complete nightmare for them if a disgruntled ex-employee decided to steal some.

Large corporations are masters at CYA, and this is just bad.

[Halt]

Looking deeper into the topic KyleJCrb posted back early on, and it looks like the whole dig is legit.
http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.msg134276.html#msg134276

I don't know about the whole OCR v. Zeality shenanigans, but it sure sounds like you all hate him. I dunno who the hell he is, all I know is that he's involved with this CE project.

I doubt its legit from what I'm hear about him, there's reasons they dislike him, reasons why this isn't legit.

[Fenrir]

Applying logic and reason to discern Zeality's purpose is like trying to use quantum physics to figure out why I had sex with your mom.

[Bleck]

what is with ocr and its tendency to babble on and on about things or people that they apparently do not like

[NNY]

No, that was Dampe of the Ocarina of Time 2d remake.

Oh that's right. I was looking forward to that too.

I think a key to releasing these projects is to not announce it until you are about to release it. That way you don't have to fake your death or legalities when you find out just how mediocre you are.

[Meteo Xavier]

Applying logic and reason to discern Zeality's purpose is like trying to use quantum physics to figure out why I had sex with your mom.

I'll do it, so help me God.

[The Author]

Applying logic and reason to discern Zeality's purpose is like trying to use quantum physics to figure out why I had sex with your mom.

It's quite simple, all your "random brain impulses" are in fact dictated by a reaction between quarks caused by a neutrino bombardment about 205 000 years ago. This bombardment caused a chain reaction that led to your birth, and therfore to every one of your brain patterns. In addition, I believe you had sex with Halt's mother is due to the quantum entropy that lead to her body aging at a rate that satisfied your senses.


Basically you had sex with his mother because a neutrino ran into a quark eons ago. All of your life was in fact determined by that incident.

[Sappharad]

I'd argue against doing anything. Last thing we need is S-E actually coming down on romhacks.
While I have no interest in this hack, I'd have to say I disagree.
In the same position, I would have:
1. Replied to verify the authenticity of the demand.
2. Point out that the project is NOT illegal (despite what the creators seem to believe and screwed themselves over by stating in a readme). Distributed as a patch only, the patch would contain 100% original modification data which requires the original product data to function.
3. Impose a 5-day deadline for all replies. If they can do it, so can you.
4. If no reasonable objections past the demand, ignore the C&D and release anyway.

There's nothing illegal about ROM hacking, and it's something I'd personally go to court just to prove. (Although I wouldn't really be thrilled if it was at my expense.) Remember that devices like the Game Genie did hardware masking to ROM data, which is an entirely hardware solution to ROM hacking that has already been proven legal in court. (Although the Game Genie was only capable of modifying 5 bytes on cart, if I recall correctly...)

Because it requires the original game data to run it's the equivalent to buying a laptop, adding a touchscreen, and reselling the same laptop. (Like that one company that sells the $5000 touchscreen MacBooks) Plenty of companies sell modifications for existing products, and this is no different.

The primary problem here lies in the fact that they're using characters and story elements from an existing work without permission. Still, I would assume that qualifies as fair use as long as they're not charging money for it. Since users are theoretically required to own the original data (although very few dump their own roms...) the author wouldn't be losing any profits over the work.

I honestly can't think of a single reason of why a freely distributed ROM hack would be illegal.

The fake looking C&D letter suggests that they've circumvented copy protection to do their modifications, but the SNES didn't really have any. As long as you hook up VCC and GND, and provide an address via the address pins on the cart, you'll get back the value at that address from the data pins. Nothing special there. With some very limited knowledge of embedded systems, and a listing of the SNES cart pinout you could build a ROM dumper in a few hours.

In summary I don't really have a point, other than that I disagree with the way they're handling this. I can see why Chrono Trigger Resurrection got shot down, because they were effectively copying someone else's copyrighted work and had a stand-alone product. But in this case, a patch can't stand on its own thus you're not stealing anything. (unless you steal the original game in order to play the patch)

Just thought I'd get a word in, even though I've echoed the same thoughts elsewhere already. (I'm kind of disappointed that the romhacking.net thread on this was locked. But apparently it's not worth arguing because the creators aren't going to bother trying to prove the lawyer's points wrong.)

[SpanishFly]

Wow, well, uh...that cleared some things up for me, I'll say.

[DarkeSword]

I didn't say that S-E would be successful in quashing romhacks, I'm just saying that romhacks don't really need that kind of negative attention from the copyright holders.

[Dhsu]

I doubt it would fall under fair use if it came down to it, as I remember there are some pretty strict criteria a work needs to meet in order to qualify. Using a few screenshots or audio clips in a review or something is fair use...re-using characters and assets to create a derivative work is most likely not.

[zircon]

Fair use is not solely determined on whether the use is for profit or non-commercial. It actually depends on four factors:

1. Commercial vs. non-commercial, educational usage: obviously, the latter is preferred. This isn't an educational usage, though.

2. The nature of the copyrighted work. Is it a for-profit endeavor? A non-fiction biography? Has it already been published? In this case, the original work is published (better for fair use) but commercial and fiction. So... romhacks lose again.

3. The proportion of copyrighted material to the new work. In this case, it's ALL recycled CT assets. Not good.

4. The effect of the use on the potential market for the original IP. Hmm, well, ROMs and certainly romhacks can easily impact the potential market for the original IP.

I would say the odds of romhacking being "fair use" are awful. Good luck arguing that.

[Dhsu]

That's about what I figured, but in terms of potential market, how would a romhack affect that? Who's going to decide they're not buying CTDS because of this hack?

[herograw]

But all the work was basically done. And he WANTED to do the project. If he didn't want to be involved he could have stepped out, but now you're telling me he made more work for himself dealing with this PR nightmare?

Regardless of how massive of a douche zeality is (and he is; I used to know him pretty well) you're right. It makes no sense that he would do something like this. If anything he's getting bsed by someone else.

Edit: yeah dave already said it.
Isn't there a third option here? Couldn't it be fake, but sent by someone else? Given that Zeality probably made enough enemies through his attitude & behavior, it seems plausible that the letter could be from a third party... let's say they used legit phone numbers, too - if they actually called Square to see if it was legit, it might end up "becoming" real since they probably wouldn't give the project a green light if contacted directly... just a thought.

[JJT]

what is with ocr and its tendency to babble on and on about things or people that they apparently do not like
says the troll

[Tensei]

No, that was Dampe of the Ocarina of Time 2d remake.

This is funny because there's a character in Ocarina of Time called Dampe, and he dies too.

[agent12]

Everyone it's legi....

You know what...I actually planned a long post to explain why it's legit, rebuttals to arguments and stuff but it's not worth it. Of all the dumb things I managed to read on the internet (and believe me over the last few hours I've gone to the depths of the internet because I've been going through and offering comments/internal insight to many, many forums who are talking about this) this forum was far and wide the most narrow minded crap I had to read through...

You guys should be embarrassed about how your bias against one man completely clouded your judgement. Romhacking.net was pretty bad, but atleast it has some people who were actually using logic that wasn't "zeality obviously crazy cuz he is dum"

If you don't believe it..call the number which can quite easily be verified and ask "did the compendium receive a C & D letter". It takes about 10 seconds, there have been several people who have already done it....there problem solved.

Sigh..i almost don't want to hit submit but i spent all this time anyways.

--JP

[Nekofrog]

Everyone it's legi....

You know what...I actually planned a long post to explain why it's legit, rebuttals to arguments and stuff but it's not worth it. Of all the dumb things I managed to read on the internet (and believe me over the last few hours I've gone to the depths of the internet because I've been going through and offering comments/internal insight to many, many forums who are talking about this) this forum was far and wide the most narrow minded crap I had to read through...

You guys should be embarrassed about how your bias against one man completely clouded your judgement. Romhacking.net was pretty bad, but atleast it has some people who were actually using logic that wasn't "zeality obviously crazy cuz he is dum"

If you don't believe it..call the number which can quite easily be verified and ask "did the compendium receive a C & D letter". It takes about 10 seconds, there have been several people who have already done it....there problem solved.

Sigh..i almost don't want to hit submit but i spent all this time anyways.

--JP

You're not changing any minds with your limpwristed arguments.

[cobaltstarfire]

The primary problem here lies in the fact that they're using characters and story elements from an existing work without permission. Still, I would assume that qualifies as fair use as long as they're not charging money for it.

Sorry to burst your bubble but fair use only applies to non-profit educational uses, review, private use, and parody. Things like effect on the originals value and degree of the original being used also factors in.

I don't know anything about the technological aspect of it, but companies tend to get their panties in a bunch over that part too, they especially don't like their stuff being modified or even looked at at all.

Also, why the hell is this such a big deal whether it's real or not? Either way it's gone so meh.

[HUmarMatt]

Sigh..i almost don't want to hit submit but i spent all this time anyways.


Woah... déjà vu...

[Meteo Xavier]

Everyone it's legi....

You know what...I actually planned a long post to explain why it's legit, rebuttals to arguments and stuff but it's not worth it. Of all the dumb things I managed to read on the internet (and believe me over the last few hours I've gone to the depths of the internet because I've been going through and offering comments/internal insight to many, many forums who are talking about this) this forum was far and wide the most narrow minded crap I had to read through...

You guys should be embarrassed about how your bias against one man completely clouded your judgement. Romhacking.net was pretty bad, but atleast it has some people who were actually using logic that wasn't "zeality obviously crazy cuz he is dum"

If you don't believe it..call the number which can quite easily be verified and ask "did the compendium receive a C & D letter". It takes about 10 seconds, there have been several people who have already done it....there problem solved.

Sigh..i almost don't want to hit submit but i spent all this time anyways.

--JP



1. It's a really bad idea to call a number from a document that is extremely speculative at best and flat-out fake at worst (or middle).

2. This is worth looking into because a lot of people in the video game communities were looking forward to Crimson Echoes, so much so that a lot of video game websites are reporting this to a fairly wide degree.

This clearly is not just a little deal here. An episode like this has all the potential to be a stepping stone towards serious ramifications towards the ROM hacking community and, subsequently, the video game fan communities. Legitimate or not, a lot of other developers and industry bigs catch on to this news too and then if they wonder if their shit is being hacked and released... well, it only takes one domino to knock down thousands of others. Thats how things in this business tend to work.

And thats if its legitimate. If its not, whether you and ZeaLity are part of it or not, its a large enough thing, IMO, that someone needs to answer for it to the communities, especially if these ramifications can still happen, and they can.

There's just way too many weird things in play with this scenario to call it clean and leave it alone. That's why we're all wondering if its legit.

[Tensei]

Sigh..i almost don't want to hit submit but i spent all this time anyways.

--JP

You could've faked a C&D letter from Square against your post you know.

[Bleck]

says the troll

don't see how that has to do with what I said but uh okay

[Sappharad]

Sorry to burst your bubble but fair use only applies to non-profit educational uses, review, private use, and parody. Things like effect on the originals value and degree of the original being used also factors in.
Point taken. That was the only potential issue I saw with what they were doing, and I guess that must have been the breaking point as well. In the end it sounds to me like it was killed for the same reason Chrono Trigger Resurrection was, and not because it's a hack.

That actually makes me feel a lot better about this. As I said initially I'm not really interested in the project itself, I was just shocked because it's the first time I've ever heard of a ROM hack project being forced to stop.

[Monobrow]

all I have to say is:

SHIT UR AZZ!

[KyleJCrb]

1. It's a really bad idea to call a number from a document that is extremely speculative at best and flat-out fake at worst (or middle).

The number on the footer of the letter IS a legitimate SquareEnix contact number for their North American PR department.

Thing is though, why would a legal letter have a phone number for their PR department? Maybe the legal department can't afford its own stationery...

[Toadofsky]

Hmm, this all seems a bit odd, I know nothing of legal ramifications in this regard but this...

They modified roms, which are already illegal (I could be mistaken on that).
They used copyrighted assets to make the game, ILLEGAL.

I've played Prophet's Guile, all it was, was Magus' venture through Zeal, didn't add that much to the story line, and was a royal pain to go through certain fights.

Oh well, didn't hear about it till this so called cease and desist order...

Let's just hope developers don't start thinking OC should start making us pay for these remixes, there'll be hell to pay then.

[Meteo Xavier]

The number on the footer of the letter IS a legitimate SquareEnix contact number for their North American PR department.

Thing is though, why would a legal letter have a phone number for their PR department? Maybe the legal department can't afford its own stationery...

Well thats one mild reason why not to call it, it'll probably just be redirect hell. I haven't seen a phone number on any questionably legit form that has ever been helpful in any way.

[JJT]

don't see how that has to do with what I said but uh okay
i just thought you of all people would understand

[pu_freak]

Hmmm... this stuff is very fishy indeed. Why the huge difference with the other C&D letter (from resurrection)? I'm curious to see how this'll all work out. There are many things that don't add up (for instance: is it true they destroyed all of their work 5 minutes after getting the C&D, even BEFORE they checked it's authenticy?), but I won't be feeding the rumor mill here

[Battousai]

First, zeality gets to some sort of nebulous percent completed in his remake. Then his hard drive crashes. He loses everything, didn't make backups, and has no choice but to give up. But he can't just come out and say that because it'll sound like he's making it up. So he invents an even BIGGER piece of shenanigans to keep people's hearts and minds with the project.

Seems pretty cut and dry. All the people flying to his defense are 1-of posters who are so blindly defensive of their e-buddy that they'd swear to anything that the project was finished and got squashed by GRAHHHHHH SQUAREENIX GRAHHHHHHHH without any solid evidence that any significant portion of the game was done to begin with.

Silly zeality, tricks are for kids!

[Meteo Xavier]

I don't think we care anymore.

[nrich]

I think the only thing I wondered about while reading this crazy thread is whether or not that the patch will be circulated at all. You can't really stop it from being spread around if it got onto torrent sites, but I guess that really depends on the whole story being true. It's a migraine to think about, to be honest.

[Ybrik Metaknight]

Hm. I just read this whole thread, and I don't know what to say — or think. A disclaimer before I say anything else: I used to be very involved at the Chrono Compendium. I was a regular participant in the Chrono threads here at OCR that led to the creation of the Compendium, I wrote some content for the initial version of the site (including an article on Magus that I think is the only bit of my content that's still up) and I used to have some administrative privileges there. But I haven't been active there in years, and post there only slightly more than I post here anymore. And I had no involvement whatsoever in this project, to the point that I just barely knew it was even going on.

I have to say that while I can certainly see that Zeality is fanatical (or "overzealous," if you will...sorry, couldn't resist the pun) when it comes to Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, I've never seen anything from him (either in public forums or in personal correspondence between myself and him via AIM, e-mail, etc.) that would suggest he'd do anything like this. I also believe that Zeality really was not the main force behind this (truthfully, I think that agent12 listed a page back or so was), and therefore even if this whole C&D thing was faked, I'm not sure that it was him doing the faking. That seems quite out of character for what I know about him. Not saying it couldn't have happened that way, just that I don't think it did. Either way, I do think it's a bit sweeping to just declare that Zeality faked this whole thing because he's a nutbag. I recognize that he made a lot of enemies here, but it's for that exact reason that I'm a bit skeptical of some (not all) of these posts.

But on the other hand...there do seem to be quite a few people expressing some doubts here. Some of whom don't seem to just be seeing speculation and using that as the basis for renewing personal attacks. If you'd asked me earlier tonight whether I had any doubts as to the veracity of that C&D order, I'd have said, of course not, it seems real to me. Now I'm not sure. I've only skimmed parts of the letter itself, and I haven't made any personal attempts to investigate the numbers or any of that.

Really, I'm not sure what to think. I want to believe in what the Compendium says happened, maybe because I'm too close to the site. But I have to admit this thread has made me really think that something fishy's going on.

Bah, I'm not sure what I was trying to accomplish by posting this here. I just had to react to everything I just took in. Sorry to drag up a thread that hasn't been posted on in a couple of days.

[SpanishFly]

I've got to admit I've never had anything against the stuff I've read on the Chrono Compendium (but that's mainly been the Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross theories), but this whole situation just seems...yeah....All it's really done with me is made me want Chrono 3 to come out...:?

[tushantin]

I may be a little late to reply to this topic, but here goes nothing.

I've read quite some posts regarding ZeaLity and C&D here. It's not surprising you don't know much about Crimson Echoes thus coming up with assumptions is no big deal for you. However, keep your concerns and hatred towards ZeaLity to yourself. Sure, he has his cons, but the dude's zealous and passionate towards his goals, and he's one we often admire him for his intellect.

But besides that, Crimson Echoes has been in development for 5 years. Prophet's Guile was a short spinoff to the story and went widely successful after its release. It was a short gameplay version with little complex ASM modification involved, and it took them a long time.

Although I'm not one of the developers of Crimson Echoes, a friend of mine from RL is in fact, and the gameplay and story, as noticed, was astounding. 5 years of hard work could be seen not only in the footage but when my friend was beta-testing it and was busy with pre-release polishing. Almost everyone was busy weeks before release.

So why would ZeaLity or the other members lie about something they worked so hard for? Saying they're making things up is an insult to their hard work and determination, mind you. They made it so others would PLAY it. They had no reason to hold back.

If you have any doubts, please step into the Compendium forums and read. You'll see what's going on.

[The Damned]

A forum run by the very person(s) we suspect of faking the whole thing, filled with fanboy bias from the people that followed the game in question with eager anticipation, who were then conned into thinking it was axed by Square-Enix.

Yes, that does sound very fair and unbiased.

[Ramaniscence]

So why would ZeaLity or the other members lie about something they worked so hard for? Saying they're making things up is an insult to their hard work and determination, mind you. They made it so others would PLAY it. They had no reason to hold back.

If you have any doubts, please step into the Compendium forums and read. You'll see what's going on.

I'm going to tell you right now, ZealitY was a huge trouble maker and a gigantic troll around OCReMix. Sure he was passionate about Chrono Trigger, but a lot of people have a lot of distaste for him in for a LOT of reasons. Not simply because he was some crazed Chrono Trigger fanboys. Anyway moving on...


Rumor 1: "Crimson Echoes was a piece of vaporware. The modders made this C&D up because they knew they would never finish something so ambitious!"

This is extremely easy to disprove. The terms of the C&D do not forbid gameplay footage taken during the beta testing phase to be uploaded to our understanding, so we'll try to get some of our numerous recordings processed and uploaded. For now, please review the preview videos.


Show me a 100% complete run-through of the game. Not random splices of the parts that they got done, or hastily try to get done now too make it look like it was a comprehensive game. I mean 100% full on plot and encounters and dialog intact telling a straight forward linear story with minimal video editting. Shouldn't have been hard, right? Especially since it was practically done. I mean, if they were honestly going to DESTROY ALL THE WORK FROM THE PROJECT ZOMG why wouldn't they do this first anyway if they thought it'd be OK?

[Nekofrog]

So, further evidence that the "98% complete" figure is a complete crock of shit -- Crimson Echoes leaked.

Sort of.

It's early alpha and only a few months old, but why in the hell would this leak if there's a version that's 98% done and ready to go?

Something is way too fishy here.

http://www.gossipgamers.com/chrono-fan-game-crimson-echoes-98-complete-leaked/

[Meteo Xavier]

The game is afoot! And Meteo X, a man God once condemned at Red Square, a man who stands for and in the way of humanity, a man once classified by the FDSA as Prime Rib Striplets, is on the case!

[KyleJCrb]

It took 'em five years to get to an "alpha" stage?



Show me a 100% complete run-through of the game. Not random splices of the parts that they got done, or hastily try to get done now too make it look like it was a comprehensive game. I mean 100% full on plot and encounters and dialog intact telling a straight forward linear story with minimal video editting. Shouldn't have been hard, right? Especially since it was practically done. I mean, if they were honestly going to DESTROY ALL THE WORK FROM THE PROJECT ZOMG why wouldn't they do this first anyway if they thought it'd be OK?

The Compendium has a thread (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,7548.0.html) linking to YouTube videos, and claim that they will be posting a full playthrough of Crimson Echoes. Good job on listening to Squeenix's supposed demands, dudes!

[RedFusion]

Maybe if they were the ones behind the faking, then they'll get back at the project and finish it once and for all, just to spite all of us.

Now that would be interesting.

[1337 1]

You know, maybe its all a big conspiracy, and at E3, SE and compendium will release a four letter statement.

YHBT.

[The Flame Stealer]

(This is Chrono'99 again. I posted on the second page.)

Show me a 100% complete run-through of the game. Not random splices of the parts that they got done, or hastily try to get done now too make it look like it was a comprehensive game. I mean 100% full on plot and encounters and dialog intact telling a straight forward linear story with minimal video editting. Shouldn't have been hard, right? Especially since it was practically done. I mean, if they were honestly going to DESTROY ALL THE WORK FROM THE PROJECT ZOMG why wouldn't they do this first anyway if they thought it'd be OK?
http://www.youtube.com/user/CEMemorial

So, further evidence that the "98% complete" figure is a complete crock of shit -- Crimson Echoes leaked.

Sort of.

It's early alpha and only a few months old, but why in the hell would this leak if there's a version that's 98% done and ready to go?

Something is way too fishy here.

http://www.gossipgamers.com/chrono-fan-game-crimson-echoes-98-complete-leaked/

The leak was apparently from a beta-tester, though it’s a really old version from way back in January or February. We had just began recruiting beta-testers at that point and you might as well call this an alpha. We do NOT endorse the leak and are trying to take down the links when we find them... Trying.

By May the game had changed a lot as we polished events, fixed bugs, actually inserted the final dialogues, actually balanced the game’s difficulty, and inserted new graphics and techs (obviously there were peaks and lulls during development, we're not robots or slave workers). When the C&D letter struck we were about 98% complete and that’s the version we’re showing on YouTube. The leak is NOT the 98% complete version.

SE prohibited the game, but images and videos are akin to fanart, so we can still show them. We're releasing about 3 videos a day because we want to keep the interest going throughout the month of June, though if you look at the dates they're being uploaded earlier than they are published. Believe me, if we could have released the game, we would have done it already (it was set for May 31), but we can't. These videos are the best we can do to let people experience the game and prove it actually existed and was actually near-finished. If you have the leaked version (and you shouldn't), the videos show that it's different than the 98% version.

[D.Radium]

Everything I'm reading seems to boil down to:

"Rather than suffer the indignation of such an enormous project stagnating and fizzling to death slowly, it must be taken out with an appropriately large [drama] bang!"

[Native Jovian]

It took 'em five years to get to an "alpha" stage?
And then all the way to 98% complete in less than four months!
The leak was apparently from a beta-tester, though it’s a really old version from way back in January or February.

[Gario]

Well I'll enjoy the footage, I guess... :|

At least they can prove that there really was something being done, there (although the C&D debate will continue, no doubt).

[agent12]

Hey Everyone,

I told meteo I'd try to stop in here every once in awhile cause it seemed like the blind biasedness was gone (based off his post). It looks like it has atleast subsided a little :)

"Rather than suffer the indignation of such an enormous project stagnating and fizzling to death slowly, it must be taken out with an appropriately large [drama] bang!"Complying with a C&D doesn't mean we are going to go hide in a cave or something. A ton of time and effort went into this product. We're gunna talk about it :)

It took 'em five years to get to an "alpha" stage?Uh.......yea. It's a full scale game made by people over the internet living across the world. Maybe you're confused by the term Alpha? For us we considered it the point where you can play the game from beginning to end...maybe that's a bad word, Chrono Trigger's alpha was just a couple chapters wasn't it? Anyways..most development stopped when I took a year and a half off of school, though 99 kept the ball rolling by polishing a bunch of the early chapters.

And then all the way to 98% complete in less than four months!I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. I think that's relatively standard even for professional products. At that point we had actually released to several beta testers and basically had a constant stream of people submitting bugs to the tracker (most of them small but it really added up). We fixed 2000+ bugs in that time period. It's also when we threw in some new graphics and stuff.

The Compendium has a thread (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,7548.0.html) linking to YouTube videos, and claim that they will be posting a full playthrough of Crimson Echoes. Good job on listening to Squeenix's supposed demands, dudes!Um....it is? We destroyed the roms. These were videos taken before the C&D, and they haven't complained about any of the other videos (which have 1000's of hits).

So, further evidence that the "98% complete" figure is a complete crock of shit -- Crimson Echoes leaked.

Sort of.

It's early alpha and only a few months old, but why in the hell would this leak if there's a version that's 98% done and ready to go?

Something is way too fishy here.99 kind of covered this. It's pretty clear to us that this is a beta tester's doing. Anyways any debate about the game being close to done is surely settled by the youtube playthrough.

Please try to set aside your biases for a second....why would we fake this?

--JP

[Nekofrog]

Because the C&D looks 100% completely and totally fake. It does not fall in line or comply with any of their previous letters, and the followup response to it "yeah we called them, transferred departments, don't call them on your own and verify our story pls" is absolutely fishy.

If YOU didn't fake it, someone else did.

There is no way in fucking hell any of this is even remotely real. The C&D was fake, whether you faked it or not.

[Meteo Xavier]

I told meteo I'd try to stop in here every once in awhile cause it seemed like the blind biasedness was gone (based off his post). It looks like it has atleast subsided a little :)

/Hasn't actually looked back at that forum yet.


Additionally, Neko, to be fair, I think he or one or some of the other administrators HAS said to go ahead and call the number - but, honest to Jesus Our Lord and Savior, do not call any number off of a paper that could be fake.

[agent12]

Meteo, the number on the C&D can very quickly be confirmed on the internet. I will admit.....if this someone managed to hack the intertubes, set someone next to this phone to answer calls all day, planted the two other people i've managed to talk to (lawyer/and HR person), then yes I got punk'd. I find that very very unlikely though.

Neko, When did I say to not call the number...I'm pretty sure I actually encouraged people to call the number (looks back) ......yea I did.

We think that they anticipated the larger fan backlash with this C&D and that's why they called didn't sign it with someones name. I agree the wording is worse, maybe they got some intern to type it up......or it was some new guy trying to make a name for himself I honestly don't know.

Meh....I'm not really that much sure what to say. Someone on this forum said to post an uninterrupted walkthrough and were doing that maybe that'll help a little :-/.

--JP

[DarkeSword]

I'm locking this.

Speculation is pointless. All there is is a fake-looking C&D letter and the I-swear-it's-real testimony of project staffers.

What a waste of time.

[DarkeSword]

Got this message from Zeality.

I wasn't aware of that thread about Crimson Echoes until now, but I'd like to request that it be unlocked.

You can check the metadata of the C&D PDF file. The author is "asullivan", or Adam Sullivan, this guy: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:3ZH2BrklpmsJ:www.linkedin.com/in/amsullivan+%2B%22adam+sullivan%22+%2B%22corporate+ counsel%22&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

He's taken his profile down (probably to avoid flames from whomever might connect the dots). To give you complete assurance, on May 7, one day before the C&D, I got a bogus friend request and a message from someone on Facebook affiliated with "Sony Corporate Counsel" (which, as you can see on LinkedIn, was his last job before SE):

http://chronofan.com/Zeality/thatguy.png

http://chronofan.com/Zeality/thatguy2.png

This is the same Adam Sullivan, and he was scoping my name / university e-mail out as he composed the C&D letter.

It's really heartbreaking to see people doubt the veracity of the C&D letter and close thread after thread. [...] I'm hoping something can at least be salvaged here at OCR.

[zircon]

Another amazing coincedence, the guy in the metadata of the PDF HAD a profile... but not anymore! Wow! Would you look at that.

[Nekofrog]

Seriously

So many amazing coincidences in this situation that it's mind numbing. It was there when WE checked, honest! but don't look now it's not there anymore

[Meteo Xavier]

So.... what happens from here?

[The Coop]

The drama rolls on until OCR can officially take the "We Know Drama" tagline from TNT.

[Meteo Xavier]

The drama rolls on until OCR can officially take the "We Know Drama" tagline from TNT.

The old April Fool's EA tagline "Its in the Mix." is much better. We should use that one.

[Bruce Lee]

Another amazing coincedence, the guy in the metadata of the PDF HAD a profile... but not anymore! Wow! Would you look at that.

Are you saying the CE team is skilled enough to hack Google cache to fake his LinkedIn profile? And you can still go look him up on Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1420577177

Or did the CE team fake this guy, his university participation, and all his friends, too?

[Meteo Xavier]

Ok, well I call for a resolve on this issue on the condition that its not Zeality's fault some 31-year-old prick absolutely sucks at his job.

I think whoever has a Facebook account should email Adam a picture of what a Square-Enix C&D letter is supposed to look like (and nothing else - just want that to be clear) and call it good. For good.

[Caster13]

Are you saying the CE team is skilled enough to hack Google cache to fake his LinkedIn profile? And you can still go look him up on Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1420577177

Or did the CE team fake this guy, his university participation, and all his friends, too?

The obvious simple solution to that is that man's existence is not fake, but the link/reference/relation to him in the C&D is.

[Toadofsky]

Having watched this drama roll on and on, I have to say, this looks fake. We can LOOK at evidence, but to look even FURTHER, there's a dead end every time. Why doesn't someone just get it over with and ask Square Enix? Huh?
I guess since other projects similar to this were killed off, that it's just another drop in the bucket.

Course, even then, I wonder if that'll just open up new problems? I'm confused.

Why don't people just play that leaked beta that's out now? At least then they can see the game for themselves.

And now I wonder, if this all some elaborate plan of Zeality's to get back at OC for kicking him out?

[Meteo Xavier]

Why doesn't someone just get it over with and ask Square Enix?

To quote Darkesword (which I can't because for some reason that page won't load for me), "[...] Romhacks don't need the negative attention."

[Toadofsky]

To quote Darkesword (which I can't because for some reason that page won't load for me), "[...] Romhacks don't need the negative attention."

Fair enough.

Just noticed your pic, do you think Artie will ever come back?

[Hector]

This is the internet. Even if the letter is real, it would be no small feat to continue the project with a different name on a different site. It is like when a studio tries to take down a fansubbing group. When I was watching Death Note, four fansubbing groups got taken down by cease and desist letters but many of the members simply moved to another group and continued the work.

[Meteo Xavier]

do you think Artie will ever come back?

I don't want to talk about such things.

[Toadofsky]

I don't want to talk about such things.

But he WAS the strongest man in the world!

[Meteo Xavier]

I'm pretty sure I already wrote

I don't want to talk about such things.


We're leaving it at that.

[Toadofsky]

We're leaving it at that.

Sorry.... :puppyeyes:

[Nekofrog]

He is the voice of a lot of King of the Hill characters, including Khan and Cotton Hill.

[Meteo Xavier]

He is the voice of a lot of King of the Hill characters, including Khan and Cotton Hill.

Toby Huss only really voices Khan and Cotton. You can find more of him on Reno 911! and Adult Swim shows. He's also uncredited on Vegas Vacation. He supposedly does an incredible Frank Sinatra impersonation, but I've never seen it.

[Nekofrog]

I saw his Sinatra on youtube a few months ago, but can't remember the search parameters I used (Toby Huss and combinations of Frank Sinatra / impersonator yield nothing)

[Tensei]

And thus the butthurt commenced.

[DarkeSword]

Closing this up again.