The Evolution of OCR

[Bahamut]

So I've frequented OCR since 2002 - I know some of you have been here longer (Dave comes to mind of course).

I've been catching up on remixes from the past year and a half since I've fallen so behind on them, and I've been finding a lot of these songs quality. Contrasting them with most of the past stuff (when I went through them all a year or two ago), I find that the music posted on the site has progressed quite a lot. The production & arrangement prowess has increased dramatically - there's nothing like zircon's & sixto's Nuclear Flash (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01702/) pre-1000, and even perhaps even before that mix in its variety and intensity.

I'm not deriding ALL of the music from the past. I am however noting that I'm deriving quite a lot of enjoyment from the more recent stuff, in more deeper ways than much of the music from the past.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

[Rozovian]

Back in OA's review campaign, I got to hear a bunch of -1000 remixes that were great, some that were ok, and a bunch that I didn't dare review. While the 1000- tracks are technically better by far, a lot of the old ones have a charm that the newer ones rarely have. I've noticed ocr tends to piss off ppl, whether by means of sidebar or by rejecting their "awesome" remixes, which is such a shame since a lot of those people could have brought something fresh to ocr.

...not that stuff like The Shinra Shuffle and other recent tracks aren't fresh... Can someone say what I mean better?

[Mustin]

...there's nothing like zircon's & sixto's Nuclear Flash (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01702/) pre-1000, and even perhaps even before that mix in its variety and intensity.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

My thoughts are that this statement is very subjective and shows favouritism.

I do agree that the production quality has increased. It's a lot easier to say that one track is well-recorded as opposed to a different track. But that still doesn't necessarily make it a better track. Many albums have been recorded very poorly - with performance mistakes - and they are regarded as great albums of our time.

Just leave it at, "I've noticed that the music here is continually improving by the standards imposed by this site" before interjecting favouritism and opinions as facts.

[DarkeSword]

I like older OCR stuff more than newer OCR stuff.

Also, if you want a song that's filled with variety, check out Team Gato, from Chrono Trigger.

[OA]

I've listed to every track on the site multiple times, and it's my opinion that there is something excellent to be found in every 'era' of the site. Even looking on the front page now, there is almost as much variety as you'd see in a record store (if such things still existed). I think the production really increased around the 1000 mark overall, but arrangements can still be good or bad. Not to get into favorites or anything, butI probably have as many remixes i've downloaded to my playlist from the first thousand as I do the second thousand, and my favorite mix on the site wouldn't win any awards for production.

As for Team Gato, it's a classic that I loved so much, we made a track on the FF4 project album that is (hopefully regarded as) a loving tribute. Dale North and Mustin are even thanked in the liner notes. :-)

[Skummel Maske]

The way I see it, the bar has followed the progress of the "regulars", or something in that vein. The members that started out with a regular, healthy interest in music have grown up and gotten really good at what they do. There's a huge gap between the levels of skill now. Maybe that also shows through the mixes?

[Jam Stunna]

The way I see it, the bar has followed the progress of the "regulars", or something in that vein. The members that started out with a regular, healthy interest in music have grown up and gotten really good at what they do. There's a huge gap between the levels of skill now. Maybe that also shows through the mixes?

I was thinking this as well.

Also, technology has progressed. I'm no expert, but I don't think a song like "Cantata for Dancing" was even possible in the past.

That said, my favorite ReMix is from 2003, so I guess it is subjective in the end.

[Nec5]

I like older OCR stuff more than newer OCR stuff.Me too. This applies to non-gaming music as well.

[HoboKa]

My opinion? Current OCR music is striving too hard to be mainstream sounding; video game tracks are meant to be innovative and unique, yet we hear a lot of them being turned into cliche genres, with overly predictable progressions. Sure, OCR is getting better soundwise and so forth, but as the years pass the soul wanes. Moreover, I don't think I've enjoyed all that many oif the new tracks, except for the album projects...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this for my own sake (as I'm aware I'm still a nub) - I'm saying this for the other great tracks that get NO (resubmit) but then never get resubmitted because the artists are either burnt out, or too pissed off to attempt them again. A lot of good stuff gets rejected...a lot of it over asinine, over-done subjectivity. It's even lamer when we know that the head judge can't even compose, yet he has the audacity to critique other people - and his taste in music is a bit...well...tasteless. You guys know who I'm speaking of.

In fact, if Thasauce and VGmix were still kicking, I wouldn't even be lurking in these forums and I know that many others think the same way.
Hell...and I still wonder who hacked VGmix? Perhaps DJP had a vested interest in doing so...no?

Anyhoo...there's my 2 cents...ciao for now.

[Skummel Maske]

What? Thasauce is still up.
I agree with you that alot of potential might be lost because people give up when they get a NO though. I've heard mixes that have been on par with at least older OCRemixes, and that I personally really enjoyed, but were rejected. But that might be a different topic.

[HoboKa]

What? Thasauce is still up.

But hardly active.

[Bleck]

I like older OCR stuff more than newer OCR stuff.


this basically

[OA]

It's even lamer when we know that the head judge can't even compose, yet he has the audacity to critique other people - and his taste in music is a bit...well...tasteless. You guys know who I'm speaking of.


So it's ok for you to have the audacity to critique other people when you've also proven that you can't even compose? :roll:

[DarkeSword]

Hell...and I still wonder who hacked VGmix? Perhaps DJP had a vested interest in doing so...no?

Wow. Wow.

How dare you say something like that. Never mind the rest of your post which is absolutely soaking with bitterness, but to suggest that djpretzel and OCR had a vested interest in bringing down VGMix really takes the fucking cake. When VGMix was around, it complimented OCR so well, and a bunch of OCR STAFF MEMBERS released music there all the time. I was personally very disappointed when VGMix was taken offline. :\

What the hell is wrong with you? :?

You know what? Don't even bother answering.

[HoboKa]

So it's ok for you to have the audacity to critique other people when you've also proven that you can't even compose? :roll:

You only answered one of my points and turned it against me, as if that somehow makes the rest of my argument void. Such a lame tactic; but I suppose that that's what hacks like you do, right?

[Mustin]

The way I see it, the bar has followed the progress of the "regulars", or something in that vein. The members that started out with a regular, healthy interest in music have grown up and gotten really good at what they do. There's a huge gap between the levels of skill now. Maybe that also shows through the mixes?

Yeah, I like this statement because I know it's true for me. My first mix here was very primitive in the way of production, but I still get positive feedback from people who are just now hearing it for the first time NINE YEARS LATER. And it's definitely thanks to my peers here that I've grown and have become more polished as an artist.

I dunno. Something about that original post just irked me. And I don't mean any discredit to zircon or Sixto - zircon has pretty much set the bar in terms of productive polish, but I felt like the original post, though saying it was, was in fact bashing any track that came before it. That's not fair, and I don't think it was the poster's intention.

blah blah blah back to making drum 'n' bass

(and thanks for the "Team Gato" love. One day we're going to do 2.0 - we already have the script!)

[OA]

You only answered one of my points and turned it against me, as if that somehow makes the rest of my argument void. Such a lame tactic; but I suppose that that's what hacks like you do, right?

The rest of your statement was either your opinion, and not something I was inclined to dispute; you having your opinion is fine by me, or it was so hilariously fucked up that I chose to do us both a favor and forget you even said it.

As for me being a hack, i'll be the first one to tell you that I need a lifetime of improvement.

[Nec5]

How dare you say something like that. Should that have a question mark at the end? I've seen it both ways.

[Dhsu]

http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00028/

'Nuff said.

[Native Jovian]

I foresee great things for this thread thanks to HoboKa.

[DarkeSword]

Should that have a question mark at the end? I've seen it both ways.
Hm. You're probably right; I'm not actually sure. While it's mostly rhetorical, technically it is a question. I'll change it.

Also, I'm excited for Team Gato: The Sequel.

EDIT: look it up. apparently different types of punctuation are all valid for rhetorical questions. changing it hack.

[cobaltstarfire]

It's even lamer when we know that the head judge can't even compose


Uh...one does not have to have technical skill in something to be able to do a good job as judge, teacher, or giver of general feedback. Some of the most helpful and insightful stuff comes from those who enjoy the arts but do not create any themselves for whatever reason be it lack of skill or interest.

[Dhsu]

Yeah...I don't think Hoboka will contributing anything further to this thread. Or any others.

[Bahamut]

My thoughts are that this statement is very subjective and shows favouritism.

I do agree that the production quality has increased. It's a lot easier to say that one track is well-recorded as opposed to a different track. But that still doesn't necessarily make it a better track. Many albums have been recorded very poorly - with performance mistakes - and they are regarded as great albums of our time.

Just leave it at, "I've noticed that the music here is continually improving by the standards imposed by this site" before interjecting favouritism and opinions as facts.

I wasn't using that track as an example of that-track-is-better-than-all-older-tracks - you're missing my point. I was just noting a level of complexity that wasn't present in much of the earlier tracks. For an analogy on this specific point, there is a power metal band called Helloween - their later material became more complex, yet most regard their early material as quite better for the level of abstraction they brought.

I'm talking about the overall quality. There are a LOT of older tracks that aged really poorly - I don't see any charm in them whatsoever. I do agree that there are some entertaining tracks of various degrees in the past, but in numbers, I feel that most of the tracks now are quite listenable & enjoyable, but you cannot say that about most of the tracks in the past.


Also, LOL at Hoboka's post.

[DarkeSword]

Yeah...I don't think Hoboka will contributing anything further to this thread. Or any others.
Let me address this right away and say that it's a one-month vacation.

[Gario]

Cripes, such a harmless subject seems to be turning sour fast.

Alright, if anyone has anything against people critiquing music even if they don't have anything posted (hell, even if they don't compose themselves) get a grip. Seriously, composing and critiquing are not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination - don't confuse the two. Being a composer helps critiquing, and critiquing music certainly helps composers with their own processes, but neither is a requirement for the other. Great critics do not need to be composers (and vice versa).

Don't judge the judges due to their 'posted music' count - in case you haven't noticed, the quality of OCR has increased substantially over the years and they are the ones to thank for that. The only thing they do is insist that the production hits a standard of excellence so the people don't need to listen to arrangements that sound like they were thrown in a grater.

If it's anyone's fault for the supposed 'lack' of imaginative music on the site, it would be the composers. From the current front page, here, it's easy to see that OCR still accepts imaginative, creative music - it's just that they want to make listening to it as easy as possible for the listener. If an experimental, creative music comes up and is rejected due to production quality, do you know what the composer should do? Fix the production of the song! Seriously, good production can only make a piece of music better, not to mention make the composer better (there are very few exceptions to this and I believe the J's take those special scenarios by a case-by-case basis).

Alright, I believe the pre-1000 music had it's charm, but I'm grateful for the heightened standards that have been imposed over the years. I don't believe that it's the judges fault that the 'charm' of the past has whittled away - it's the composers fault for not cleaning up their music. Don't be lazy, fix up your production problems; you'll be a better composer in the end.

EDIT: Huh, the one I was addressing was banned... for a month. Well, I guess he'll read it later, then :P.

[Ybrik Metaknight]

I think there's no question that production values and technology have improved, and that's only natural. But I don't think that overall arrangement quality has gotten necessarily better or worse on the whole. There are gems and duds in the old stuff and the newer stuff alike. Simple as that.

If there's any difference in arrangement quality, it's likely due to higher standards and fewer duds making it through the judges now than was once the case. But I don't think that the really good mixes these days are necessarily significantly better, except perhaps in production values and technology used, than the really good ones from back in the day.

[Bahamut]

I think there's no question that production values and technology have improved, and that's only natural. But I don't think that overall arrangement quality has gotten necessarily better or worse on the whole. There are gems and duds in the old stuff and the newer stuff alike. Simple as that.

If there's any difference in arrangement quality, it's likely due to higher standards and fewer duds making it through the judges now than was once the case. But I don't think that the really good mixes these days are necessarily significantly better, except perhaps in production values and technology used, than the really good ones from back in the day.

I agree wholly with your edit addition.

[cobaltstarfire]

Yeah I've never really considered if I like the older music more than the newer music.

I'm going to stick with "I have no opinion either way" because I have always approached music by whether I like the way it sounds or not. I guess I mean...there's no "better" or "worse" for me, just "I like this" or "I don't like this" I probably don't have a critical enough ear to distinguish between older music I like and newer music I like.

[Antipode]

I've been thinking about this recently too - Mustin's first post has most adequately expressed what I would want to say. The music now adheres much more tightly to much stricter standards, and the result is generally better production quality - but it can be left there. My personal favorites are also from '03/'04, interestingly enough.

I do feel that these days with the different standards, certain genres are accepted far more easily than others - such as tracks which feature live instruments and/or vocals. I can understand why, because those tracks demonstrate a certain musicianship and will become harder to reject if they follow the standards of a remix well enough - but it also (for whatever reason) means that many other tracks seem to not be accepted as often (though we do still see them around from time to time). Of course though, it's hard to say something like this when I haven't heard all the tracks that have been rejected - but the end result either way is a certain trend toward some genres and away from others. Of course I'm not trying to say this trend JUST leads at times to (personally) boring music - there's also some new avant-garde kinds of remixes I HAVEN'T seen before, and I think DJP was saving a few of these up for recent posting to freshen things up a bit (the percussion mix, the bottle mix, etc). But those seem to be the exception and you get my point - the change in genres resulting from the new standards may be part of the change a lot of people talk about.

The other main thing I think has impacted the music over the years is what Jam brought up - the longtime members who remain on the site have definitely gotten a lot better in skill and focus a lot more time on detailing, while many other recognizable longtime members have left or don't seem to submit anymore. That changes the overall "sound" of the site too. There are a lot more floods of new submitters which can freshen things up, but there's something to be said for having a lot of recognizable artists submitting around here to look forward to. It was ALWAYS exciting for me to see a new Prot track on the frontpage, and things like that just don't happen much anymore. Some of that is probably a combination of me not being quite as "into" the newer music and just plain missing the old artists, but there's definitely more to it.

I also think the evolution of OCR goes much deeper than the music. It's on a much bigger stage now - it's a well-known site, it's officially made a soundtrack as an organization for a major Capcom game, and it has regular panels at conventions! Those are all awesome, crowning achievements, in my opionion - but they do lead to a number of things. One is that now, I'm seeing some artists are more regularly USING remixes as a conduit to gain attention to their other, personal projects, instead of remixing for the sake of the site and the music. This isn't necessarily a bad thing (though it can really get irritating sometimes) because usually these artists are what I'd personally label "top-tier" anyway (and it still leads to more remixes anyway), but it does contribute, for me anyway, to a certain change of atmosphere. More of these things are the stricter standards, the more vigorous promotion of site album projects on all fronts, the recent final mix removals and cleanup, the changes to the site design, the recent (and already well-talked-about) changes to the forums, and changes in the style of the mix release writeups. It all lends to making the important transition to the appearance of a more professional organization, but I also feel a lot of that takes away from the community togetherness and devotion to music the site once had. I think these changes in atmosphere can easily get mixed up with how much people like the new music (as it, too, is part of the site) - and many people don't like the new music as much as a result - but I'd call that just another reason and not the only one.

Just some thoughts, didn't mean any offense.

[Ramaniscence]

What? Thasauce is still up.

And well! ThaSauce.net (http://thasauce.net) just had a HUGE update that I've been meaning to make a post about once I clean it up a bit more, and ReMix:ThaSauce (http://remix.thasauce.net) is next on the list for a full recode.

One thing that's very important to mention though is that R:TS is NOT "dead" because I'm not paying attention to it, or approving new remixes, R:TS isn't moving BECAUSE NO ONE IS SUBMITTING ANYTHING. The queue is EMPTY right now. Maybe there's fall through, I don't know, but if no one follows up on that I don't know either :|

The music is out there, I'M just not getting it. I do what I can to go out of MY WAY and email people in the WIP boards, and sometimes the judges decisions boards (though it gets hard when you don't have a link to the actual mix. I can usually get a good idea whether R:TS'll take it based on the judge's decisions though.) I know some other people like Rozo on the WIP boards make sure to point people to R:TS when they feel it's appropriate, but it's just not enough.

The site is only as active as it's users. Songs aren't going to magically appear on their own if no one submits. And no one will ever consider it viability until it gets some REAL actual content. Sure the design could use a little work, and I'm working on it, but it still needs content.

There is absolutely NO REASON to NOT submit your music to R:TS. The more people that can hear your music the better.

[FireSlash]

and I still wonder who hacked VGmix? Perhaps DJP had a vested interest in doing so...no?

It all makes sense now
http://fireslash.net/%7Efireslash/images/tmp.JPG

[Gario]

Cripes, Rami, your right! I never thought of it that way...

I'll get something for you today - it's being processed at OCR, atm, but there's no harm at having it at R:TS, as well. Gotta support the music sites out there :).

[OA]

I think there's no question that production values and technology have improved, and that's only natural. But I don't think that overall arrangement quality has gotten necessarily better or worse on the whole. There are gems and duds in the old stuff and the newer stuff alike. Simple as that.

If there's any difference in arrangement quality, it's likely due to higher standards and fewer duds making it through the judges now than was once the case. But I don't think that the really good mixes these days are necessarily significantly better, except perhaps in production values and technology used, than the really good ones from back in the day.

Thread winner, right here.

I also do think that it's sad that a lot of 'no resubs' don't take the time to fix up otherwise awesome mixes. The judges panel is there to help people, but mixers have to meet them halfway. I personally owe the panel a lot for not only encouraging me to step up my game, but giving me some direction to get there. There was a lot of frustration in learning to do some of this stuff, but a lot of fun too.

[Ramaniscence]

It all makes sense now
http://fireslash.net/%7Efireslash/images/tmp.JPG

Moar like:

http://thasauce.net/images/OCVGMix.png


(FYI it's Stylish (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/2108) and this theme (http://userstyles.org/styles/5528))

[Skrypnyk]

you people are your widescreen monitors >=(

[zircon]

I think most of the mixes I really enjoy are newer, in the 1k+ range. There are some golden oldies too, but I agree with Wes that some haven't aged well. It could also be because as I've learned more as a producer, I've realized that some techniques I thought were basically magical are really quite simple. Arrangements have definitely gotten better across the board though; there's almost no question about that. The early years of OCR had a ton of covers.

[OA]

The early years of OCR had a ton of covers.


http://oceansend.com/5502/ocr/header.jpg

[Nekofrog]

I have to say, I take great offense at the title of this thread.

To reflect everyone's views, it should be retitled "The THEORY of the evolution of ocr"

evolution has never been proven

[Palpable]

Repeating a couple people here, but I'd say the only thing that has changed about the remixes we post now is that we enforce a set of standards more uniformly. There are plenty of mixes from the pre-1000 era that could be posted today, but you'll also find great arrangements with so-so productions, or great near-covers, or goofy stuff that makes you smile even though it's short or repetitive. I still like a lot of that stuff, but it makes sense that over time the site would find its niche and try to perfect that, and in addition, the increasing volume of subs meant that it made sense to gradually raise the bar to devote the same attention to the ones we pass. Certainly something lost, but a lot gained.

Keeping in mind that I only started submitting and lurking in 2003, I think the much more impactful change has been the ever-growing size of the site and community.

[Tensei]

I have to say, I take great offense at the title of this thread.

To reflect everyone's views, it should be retitled "The THEORY of the evolution of ocr"

evolution has never been proven


I agree, can't you for a moment stop to consider the possibility of ocremix being created through Intelligent Design? Seems at least as valid as this so-called 'evolution'

[Bleck]

guys I heard djp hacked vgmix is this true

[HershDawg]

I've been floating around OCR since late 2003. The quality of the music has improved greatly since then. Its astounding to hear the differences between mixes being released then to those being released now. However the facade of putting together professional quality work has hurt some of the fun. The older mixes often have something behind them that makes them more enjoyable. They were more casually made, and have more imperfections. The next step will be to recreate the fun of the older mixes with the quality of the newer ones. Admittedly the lack of similar communities at the moment is probably hurting some of the creativity. I am excited to see what is going to come to OCR and happy for past accomplishments.

[Gario]

To reflect everyone's views, it should be retitled "The THEORY of the evolution of ocr"

evolution has never been provenI agree, can't you for a moment stop to consider the possibility of ocremix being created through Intelligent Design?No. Intelligent design is stupid, evolution has been proven, and this site is a result of various useful parts coincidentally coming together over the millenia to form what is known today as Overclocked Remix. You should all know that.

Get with the times people, geez...

[JadeAuto]

No. Intelligent design is stupid, evolution has been proven, and this site is a result of various useful parts coincidentally coming together over the millenia to form what is known today as Overclocked Remix. You should all know that.

Get with the times people, geez...

Heh, Evolution vs. ID or Creation or whatever is an argument hotter than whether Peanut Butter or Jelly came first. It's also a topic that everyone has an opinion on, and right or wrong in it can't easily be determined yet. Also Faith comes into play for some.

Oh wait, we're talking about a different usage of the word Evolution, when applied to structures in a smaller non-aeonic timeline.

Nevermind. :tomatoface:

[Tensei]

Oh wait, we're talking about a different usage of the word Evolution, when applied to structures in a smaller non-aeonic timeline.


Thanks for getting the joke.

[Ybrik Metaknight]

In the beginning, djp created OverClocked ReMix.

And it was good.

[Battousai]

It was quite bad back then, actually. This was more a spinoff for that 3d rendered comic with the pretzel guy and the green guy. I think there was an Ecco mix and an Outrun mix and they were TERRIBLE. The site's come a long way.

[Ybrik Metaknight]

It was quite bad back then, actually. This was more a spinoff for that 3d rendered comic with the pretzel guy and the green guy. I think there was an Ecco mix and an Outrun mix and they were TERRIBLE. The site's come a long way.

To quote Tensei-San, thanks for getting the joke.

[Gario]

In the beginning, djp created OverClocked ReMix.

And it was good.

Great, now we're arguing about the existence of DJP...

I don't know, I personally don't believe in his existence :tomatoface:.

[djpretzel]

At first I thought this thread would be about the evolution of the overall site, as opposed to specifically the music on it. Both are interesting topics to me; the former I've been pouring loads of effort into for the last 2-3 years especially, the latter has always been an ongoing interest.

First of all, it's definitely rather meta to have nostalgia for the early days of a community that in large part focuses on nostalgia itself, but this is the beauty of the Internet. For some folks, the grass will always be greener - I remember Larry pointing me to a livejournal rant of sorts by former regular endblink where he complained that we never posted any Sega mixes any more. Statistically, he was dead wrong, which Larry pointed out, but his counter was that it didn't SEEM like there were as many Sega mixes any more, IIRC, because the overall music had changed in some intangible and unquantifiable way.

For my part, I think there are still plenty of mixes that capture the imagination, that may not have extreme polish or sheen but which more than compensate in charm. Heineken (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01845/) and Hazy Place (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01818/) come to mind recently; El Lagarto (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01793/) completely innovated on all levels and deserved even more attention than the considerable amount it received. There are still quirky tracks that only appeal to some, but they might be a bit fewer and further between. However, between them are mixes that absolutely blow me away on both production AND arrangement. I think there's been a rising trend - silly, in my opinion - to dismiss anything that sounds amazing as being weak on arrangement, as if the two were necessarily inversely related. Part of the whole "OCR are gearheads" argument, where unless you employ gigasamples, we hate your guts, etc. To some metal heads, we're technophiles that have a never-ending love affair with boom-tiss. To some electronica artists, we wouldn't know trance if it came up and kicked us in the ass, and have weak stomachs for repetition and presets.

We used to spend a lot of time talking about "raising the bar", and I think we accomplished that goal a couple years ago. Every once in awhile we refine our standards, but we haven't revised their core tenets in a long time. I personally wouldn't want to see the bar raised any further; I think we've hit a happy medium that keeps quality high but still allows for mixes that color way outside the lines and/or ignore traditional production/arrangement norms. Musically, I think things are pretty damn awesome right now. I've got a penchant for vocal mixes and would still like to see more, but overall there's a wealth of ideas coming from different artists with different perspectives, and everyone seems to be improving, learning, and - as the post title puts it - evolving.

As for evolution of the site... little by little, I've been making changes. You've seen some of them already, some of them are right around the corner, and others... not quite DNF territory, but they'll definitely be ready "when they're ready". I've been more open & receptive to advice from others, Larry's made some good suggestions, and I feel like we're on the right track in several areas.

OC ReMix 5.0 is essentially being worked on, in other words. It will leave some processes and issues unaddressed, is virtually guaranteed to get a knee-jerk negative reaction from some, will certainly leave room for further improvement, and will most likely be rolled out in pieces, not all at the same time. Spoilers? As it stands at the moment, we'll probably be killing the sidebar. We will expect - nay, demand - a moment of silence from all, if indeed it is honorably discharged. We'll work on enhancing search & filtering capabilities and moving the quick search to a more prominent location. I hate buzzwords and the whole "2.0" moniker is way overplayed, but some of those core concepts - usability, simplicity, and grace - will be part of what I'm shooting for, design-wise. I'd like to make chiptunes easier to find, so we'll probably be moving those around a bit. I'd like to kill our non-SEO, proprietary DHTML drop-down menus in favor of something home-grown and more powerful. We still need to integrate the workshop skills/collab info with artist profiles, and vBulletin blogs will still happen in some form or another.

That's the tip of the iceberg, really, but I thought it was worth divulging. At some point we'll start a thread for ideas/suggestions, with the caveat that certain things have already been decided and we can't expand the scope too far, or nothing will ever get done.

[Arek the Absolute]

Who the hell cares about the improvements ocr 5.0 will have?

What we really care about, is what color scheme it will be.

[Bleck]

we'll probably be killing the sidebar.

Could it be?

Can it really be true?

[Ybrik Metaknight]

Who the hell cares about the improvements ocr 5.0 will have?

What we really care about, is what color scheme it will be.

Hahahahaha, there's some truth to this, unfortunately.

I miss the blue scheme from when I first joined, myself.

[HershDawg]

Could it be?

Can it really be true?

I remember how people acted when the sidebar showed up. It probably would make a lot of the older folks happier.

[Meteo Xavier]

Whats wrong with the sidebar?

[HershDawg]

I never really knew. I got used to it after about a week.

[djpretzel]

Hahahahaha, there's some truth to this, unfortunately.

I miss the blue scheme from when I first joined, myself.

There's definitely some truth to it. That's why we'll be deploying the updated design independent of some of the other elements we're working on. Basically, the "5.0" design will be implemented well before a lot of the "5.0" features. From past observation, when you do both at the same time, the features get completely lost, and everyone just talks about the design regardless.

Also, sorry to perhaps disappoint, but the new design will be aesthetically based on the existing design. It's more of a re-imagining of the current look than a whole new look, which I think makes sense.

Whats wrong with the sidebar?

In my opinion, for a good long while, nothing whatsoever. However, with albums and interviews and all this new content, we're trying to do more with the space provided at 1024x768, and the sidebar does impede on horizontal real estate. Right now the site is kinda "navigation happy" - sidebar on far left, horizontal tabs, AND the DHTML drop-downs. That was done primarily because we needed SEO-friendly nav as the DHTML simply wasn't, hence sidebar. If we can get some better, SEO-friendly drop-down navigation, sidebar does become somewhat superfluous. That's my current thinking, at least.

[Nekofrog]

Let's not get into that, lest the banhammer come down.

[Salluz]

This site's music is extremely kickass. In fact, when a couple of my remixes were rejected, I learned to raise my own bar and make music to the maximum. I won't lie, I was annoyed when my mixes didn't get in, but when I listened to the newest mixes and saw what was wrong with mine, it became obvious that OCRemix has a name to make for itself, and that mainstream doesn't regard quality the way this community does. Although a lot of the older tracks are kept as a momento rather than a "standard of quality", it serves the purpose of showing how OCRemix has grown as a community.

It's all about the music, and for me, it'll always be that way. really, OCRemix changed my life. Sounds funny, but I am serious. I am so glad that I developed my musical knowledge in a way that this kid couldn't. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKeQR17ZeBI) I mean, c'mon. play that Zircon song someone posted, then play what I just posted.

Lord God, no.

[Meteo Xavier]

In my opinion, for a good long while, nothing whatsoever. However, with albums and interviews and all this new content, we're trying to do more with the space provided at 1024x768, and the sidebar does impede on horizontal real estate. Right now the site is kinda "navigation happy" - sidebar on far left, horizontal tabs, AND the DHTML drop-downs. That was done primarily because we needed SEO-friendly nav as the DHTML simply wasn't, hence sidebar. If we can get some better, SEO-friendly drop-down navigation, sidebar does become somewhat superfluous. That's my current thinking, at least.


Well, if you're looking for ways to free up space, you could get rid of whatever's on the index page thats been causing the site to come up very slowly for me for the last couple months. :P

I totally mean that as a joke, btw, but wouldn't complain if you did. :)

[Ramaniscence]

Hahahahaha, there's some truth to this, unfortunately.

I miss the blue scheme from when I first joined, myself.

I had achieved a full reskin from OCR4 to OCR3 at one point, but it has since rotted because I haven't been updating it to the sites new changes, HOWEVER...

I'm looking over it now, and I might be able to fix it with minimal effort.


Edit:

This is about as good as you get for now. Apparently I had already fixed vBulletin to look more like OCR3, but they're pretty broken now too. Going over it now. No ETA yet, though. (http://thasauce.net/images/ocr43.png)

[Dhsu]

I also do think that it's sad that a lot of 'no resubs' don't take the time to fix up otherwise awesome mixes.
But they said "no resub"!

OC ReMix 5.0 is essentially being worked on, in other words. It will leave some processes and issues unaddressed, is virtually guaranteed to get a knee-jerk negative reaction from some, will certainly leave room for further improvement, and will most likely be rolled out in pieces, not all at the same time. Spoilers? As it stands at the moment, we'll probably be killing the sidebar. We will expect - nay, demand - a moment of silence from all, if indeed it is honorably discharged. We'll work on enhancing search & filtering capabilities and moving the quick search to a more prominent location. I hate buzzwords and the whole "2.0" moniker is way overplayed, but some of those core concepts - usability, simplicity, and grace - will be part of what I'm shooting for, design-wise. I'd like to make chiptunes easier to find, so we'll probably be moving those around a bit. I'd like to kill our non-SEO, proprietary DHTML drop-down menus in favor of something home-grown and more powerful. We still need to integrate the workshop skills/collab info with artist profiles, and vBulletin blogs will still happen in some form or another.
Also the whole thing will be procedurally generated by a combination of XSLT, 6NF database schemas, and pixie dust.

[Toadofsky]

I have to say, I take great offense at the title of this thread.

To reflect everyone's views, it should be retitled "The THEORY of the evolution of ocr"

evolution has never been proven

Thank you.:nicework:

As for this thread, it's going to start flame wars, or even more bickering...

The only thing I'll say is this, the tech for making mixes has vastly improved, so of course mixes are going to sound better, I refuse to debate the "golden era" of OCR, because I frequent this site on a regular basis, and still consistently find good mixes I enjoy.

[SoulinEther]

(You'll reach the point of my post eventually. I promise.)

This is awful, I know, but I don't listen to a lot of the newer mixes because they just don't interest me... because remixes of games I've played and loved are intrinsically interesting to me, and most of the games I'm nostalgic about haven't been remixed much lately.

That's not to say I don't listen to newer remixes, or that I've never given any a chance, or that I don't like any remixes of non-familiar sources. I usually give every new remix a listen to evaluate it, and see if it interests me - most of the time, it doesn't. Sometimes it does. Sometimes I hear a remix of a source tune I've never heard before and I have to have every remix of it (Jenova, IceCap, etc).

Point: Yeah, the music of OCR has changed over time - most notably concerning production as of late, but it hasn't really affected me since I am partial remixes that happen to be older. I don't care about quality so much as how interesting the music is to me, and to me, the newer stuff isn't interesting.

To that end, I think there need to be other avenues for sharing remixes that conform to standards slightly below that of OCR that is nearly as popular. R:TS comes to mind. Or.. I guess this should wait for the suggestions thread, but maybe there should be a way of posting and sorting work-in-progresses in a similar database of games / OSTs as actual posted remixes.. That would be some useful "evolution" on the site design front.

And damn, someone beat me to mentioning El Legarto...

[McVaffe]

I had achieved a full reskin from OCR4 to OCR3 at one point, but it has since rotted because I haven't been updating it to the sites new changes, HOWEVER...

I'm looking over it now, and I might be able to fix it with minimal effort.


Edit:

This is about as good as you get for now. Apparently I had already fixed vBulletin to look more like OCR3, but they're pretty broken now too. Going over it now. No ETA yet, though. (http://thasauce.net/images/ocr43.png)

WHOA THAT BRINGS BACK MEMORIES!!! Damn I forgot what the site looked like back then.

[ZealPath]

I think it's only natural to think that things have evolved somewhat over the years. Interestingly enough, one of my favorite mixes, "Registration4 (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00432/)" was posted in 2001 (I had to look that up, thought it was more 2003), it's probably one of the simplest mixes on the site, but it certainly has a certain charm to it.

I do wonder if something similar to it would get accepted these days, but, if it didn't, at least the mixes of the past remain to remind us of how things all started. These days there are a lot of very professional sounding mixes, tempered with some... more interesting takes, a couple of which are at the forefront of the site now with Zelda Heineken and the CT percussion mix.

The way I see it OCR has gotten a lot more popular over the years, I haven't posted here a ton but I have followed the site from the early days, and when I think about what I thought about it then, which was basically, "a site where some pretty cool video game remixes are posted", to now, which is more "a community of people with a passion for video game music and a massive vault of remix goodness," I'm glad that it has become what it is.

Some friends of mine that don't really come to the site at all have come to love certain mixes that I've directed them to, and are on the edge of their seats anticipating the upcoming FFIV album just as much as myself. A few years ago if I'd told them about "the upcoming OCR album" they'd have probably just shrugged, but now, the OCR name carries some weight.

In short, I'd say yeah, things have evolved, but it's all been in a positive, logical direction if you ask me.

[JadeAuto]

But they said "no resub"!

No Resub! or, No, Resub!.

Punctuation is everything here. :nicework:

[LuketheXjesse]

My opinion? Current OCR music is striving too hard to be mainstream sounding; video game tracks are meant to be innovative and unique, yet we hear a lot of them being turned into cliche genres, with overly predictable progressions. Sure, OCR is getting better soundwise and so forth, but as the years pass the soul wanes.

No idea where he's getting this from; an overall ROFL quote if I do say so myself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this for my own sake (as I'm aware I'm still a nub) - I'm saying this for the other great tracks that get NO (resubmit) but then never get resubmitted because the artists are either burnt out, or too pissed off to attempt them again. A lot of good stuff gets rejected...a lot of it over asinine, over-done subjectivity.

While the judge's opinions are subjective, people who just give up because of an objection or a NO are people who will never improve as musicians due to their refusal to take constructive criticism.

It's even lamer when we know that the head judge can't even compose, yet he has the audacity to critique other people - and his taste in music is a bit...well...tasteless. You guys know who I'm speaking of.

While one may lack the imagination to compose original melodies, one can still have the ability to point out notable production flaws, the overall structure of the song, such as transitions and how well original melodies fit, and whether a remix is too distant or too close to the source material. Is it not the listener's opinion that matters the most? (to an extent, anyway)

In fact, if Thasauce and VGmix were still kicking, I wouldn't even be lurking in these forums and I know that many others think the same way.
Hell...and I still wonder who hacked VGmix? Perhaps DJP had a vested interest in doing so...no?

uh...I thought Prot hacked VGmix? Or was that just a joke?

Regardless, I feel like this is a feeble attempt to stir up flames of some sort, which resulted in his effective ban.

[Bahamut]

Was it really necessary to break down his ragepost? :|

[Liontamer]

The way I see it OCR has gotten a lot more popular over the years, I haven't posted here a ton but I have followed the site from the early days, and when I think about what I thought about it then, which was basically, "a site where some pretty cool video game remixes are posted", to now, which is more "a community of people with a passion for video game music and a massive vault of remix goodness," I'm glad that it has become what it is.

Some friends of mine that don't really come to the site at all have come to love certain mixes that I've directed them to, and are on the edge of their seats anticipating the upcoming FFIV album just as much as myself. A few years ago if I'd told them about "the upcoming OCR album" they'd have probably just shrugged, but now, the OCR name carries some weight.

In short, I'd say yeah, things have evolved, but it's all been in a positive, logical direction if you ask me.

Since the thread's basically about the musical evolution of the site, I pretty much agree with what ZealPath said above.

As far as Hoboka's complaints about my judging, "meh." Obviously, a few people would think that a non-musician's critique is invalid, but that's an ignorant POV that I don't take personally. The only complaint I ever take personally is accusations of bias or favoritism, which I've never done. Also, how would he know my taste in music at all? I didn't realize Tim Follin was so bad for me. Also to Epitaph, not that I'm mad about the inference at all, but I don't "lack the imagination to compose original melodies", I just lack the ability to implement any ideas I have. :lol:

Also, while I'm sure we have some people who don't resubmit promising submissions because they're upset, I'd wager the majority of people unfamiliar with the submission system simply aren't aware of the status of their song. While I'd personally love to contact everyone on the status of their subs, that's only something that'll come with 1) me catching up on the submissions inbox and 2) having the additional free time to then mail everyone on whether their mix passed/didn't pass/was chosen for direct posted. That'll be a great perk that will increase communication with the artists, and we already have form letters for all those circumstances, so just cross your fingers I can catch up again. But it won't be for a while.

[Nec5]

today's music ain't got the same soul
I like that old time...

[BlackPanther]

What the hell is with you guys and saying the new songs don't have any soul? Who are you to say the song has no soul when you're not even the one that made the song? I've read that from a couple people now and to me, that's a form of discouragement to future remixers. I feel you guys really have no say so in judging if a song has "soul" or not because really, it's all based on the remixer. They can pour their heart and soul into a mix hoping that everyone will like it but then you'll get some people that claim the song has no "soul" that's just retarded. And you (Not the last guy but everyone in general) make it sound like that the older songs had nothing but bangers when you get some flops in there as well just like the newer stuff.

In regards to the evolution of OCR, I haven't been here long so I don't really have anything to say about the community, but listening to a lot of the older stuff, on a production side the music has evolved greatly but I don't feel the songs lack any more fun or soul to them than the older remixes and I don't think we should be judging how much "soul" a song has anyway, if it's good it's good, if it's bad then it's bad just my 5 cents anyway.

[TenchuX]

Listening to Protricity's Brainsick Metal is what got me interested in making music and thus the creation of my forum account here.

I'd say the site has evolved a good amount over the years. I feel getting your songs on this site has obviously become much harder than it was in 2003. That said, OCR has also earned the respect of numerous proven composers in that time as well. I still am awed that Jeremy Soule took the time to contribute to the site (if you've not heard his Final Fantasy III (US) remix, do so).

[Gario]

While the judge's opinions are subjective, people who just give up because of an objection or a NO are people who will never improve as musicians due to their refusal to take constructive criticism.

Yeah, that basically breaks down what I was trying to say in a nutshell. It's not the J's fault that people don't resub their stuff, it's the composers fault.

Don't be hatin' the J's...

[SempaiMiles]

I've become so far and removed from OCRemix since it's hay-days back when I was in college, mostly because life has intervined. I love and hate how massive this site has become, it's lost some of its intimacy, but also gained incredible popularity and influence. I have a few years worth of remixes to catch up on, but I KNOW you guys always only put up the best!

[Ramaniscence]

Yeah, that basically breaks down what I was trying to say in a nutshell. It's not the J's fault that people don't resub their stuff, it's the composers fault.

Don't be hatin' the J's...

Some people who give up after getting a NO could just not be making music for OCReMix. A NO doesn't mean their song needs any criticism at all, it just means it needs adjustments to get on OCR.

Some people, odd as it may seem, aren't making music for OverClocked ReMix. Some people are just making music because they enjoy making music and want to show homage to the music of a game they once loved. They submit it to OverClocked ReMix as chance to provide OverClocked ReMix with something they created in hopes that others will hear and enjoy it. Whether OverClocked ReMixes chooses to accept their offer or politely decline it is not necessarily relevant to the quality of the track, or the adjustments it might need to make it listening, but rather what it would need to fall within OCReMixes standards.

If someone works very hard a song, and they feel the song is complete. It's everything they want it to be, and a good amount of people enjoy it as is, but it gets rejected from OverClocked ReMix. They might hear what the judges have to say about their song, and just feel that they're comfortable with their track AS IS and that they don't feel like revising it to meet OCReMixes needs over their own. It doesn't make them quitters, and it doesn't make them bad people =\

[SempaiMiles]

Critique is a part of growth as an artist. A NO obviously means they think you have some growing to do. As long as it's constructive TO that growth, a NO from the Judges should be taken a chance to see mistakes, learn from them, and come back stronger!

[Ramaniscence]

Critique is a part of growth as an artist. A NO obviously means they think you have some growing to do. As long as it's constructive TO that growth, a NO from the Judges should be taken a chance to see mistakes, learn from them, and come back stronger!

Not to offend, but I hate to inform you that you are seemingly uneducated on the matter.

http://remix.thasauce.net/song/RTS0004/

This song was NO'd. And I assure you Shnab doesn't need much growing.

I'm sure Larry or some of the other judges can back me up in saying just because a song gets a NO does not necessarily mean someone has to GROW at all. Simply that they don't fall within OCReMix's (somewhat strict at times) standards.

I sincerely hope that clears up the misconception that "rejected songs are bad."

[KyleJCrb]

Case in point: http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23074

Granted, it was NO'd on a technicality, not because the song itself wasn't strong. But either way, it's a good example of what you're talking about, Rama.

[zircon]

True, a NO doesn't absolutely mean the artist needs more growing, but while it's not hard to find a few exceptions here and there, the majority of tracks we get are not hidden gems. They're not Shnabubula, and people shouldn't get the impression that we're getting a lot of gold that we throw out the window. As Larry will tell you, the MAJORITY case is that people that get NO'd (or form letter rejected) tend to be experienced. Not true 100% of the time, but it's not the exception to the rule. Generally speaking, in every case where a mix is really good but doesn't meet our standards, there is always a lot of controversy.

[Meteo Xavier]

Case in point: http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23074

Granted, it was NO'd on a technicality, not because the song itself wasn't strong. But either way, it's a good example of what you're talking about, Rama.


I was almost sure you were talking about "Yggdrasil Speaks To Me." :+

[Liontamer]

Well, to be clear about most NOs, because that's what someone like Hoboka was complaining about, the fact is that most NOs are given the NO because they do need additional work on interpretation, composition and/or production to be above bar, and could use the work. Many are below average or bad pieces of music. And a decent amount of material is really promising and is narrowly rejected or rejected with lots of urges to resubmit. But that's a comparatively small amount of material.

People can be upset about the quality bar all they want, but the community's reputation has grown positively on account of the raising of that bar, and the overall increase in consistency is objective not subjective.

And then we get submissions of MIDIs, pure chiptunes, covers with little interpretation, traditional remixes heavily sampling original audio, mashups, mixes of game tracks not originally created for games or original songs ABOUT video games (which are all outside our scope) where rejections are independent of quality. But those are much more infrequent, probably less than 5% of all rejections. And, there is nothing inherently wrong with OCR having a focus that excludes those types of music, not because we dislike that music, but because back in 1999 OCR was created to offer something collectively different than preexisting concept websites that already offered those other types of music. Some of you are not understanding this.

I also think the comment about OCR trying to institute a "facade of professionalism" is ignorant. Obviously, we like to have a high standard, and it does blur the line between fan and professional for some of our community members. How that's apparently a negative thing for a community of musicians who enjoy video game music, I have no idea. But we don't have high standards to pretend we're professionals, we do it to pay respect to the original work (http://www.ocremix.org/info/Mission) and encourage people to appreciate video game music more (http://www.ocremix.org/info/Mission) by presenting consistently creative material. And that raises the game for everyone because while standards aren't professional, they're unapologetically at a high level for a hobbyist, and it promotes musicians becoming GOOD at what they do, not just half-decent (http://www.ocremix.org/info/Mission).

[00:26] <+starla> or less than 38.92% of the "arrangement" resembles the original
[00:26] <+starla> but they ONLY do this math if you're not part of the clique
Nah, I always do the math when there's a potential I could YES it. Not trying to pull a debate trick re: burden of proof, but you've gotta gimme some proof through linking decisions, because you're just talking out of your ass with that. :lol: No offense taken. But we don't have shadow conspiracies to pass stuff from friends and overlook the guidelines for them. If people did that, I'd want them kicked off.

[00:31] <+starla> good songs get rejected straight up because they are "not ocr material"
[00:31] <+starla> there is no question about that
[00:31] <+starla> that's fine, that's how OCR is run
[00:31] <+starla> NEWS FLASH
[00:31] <+starla> OCR is not the world
Of course. And that's OK, because we're not saying it is. But people with a chip on their shoulder complain AS IF we say it is. That isn't our problem.

[00:34] <@Ramaniscenc> I'm sorry, do YOU want to be the one to tell him that a NO doesn't mean it's a bad song?
[00:34] <@Ramaniscenc> Because you don't seem to do that often
[00:34] <@Ramaniscenc> Nor do other judges
You, you're talking out of your ass too. :lol: You clearly don't read enough judges decisions. I'm not sure why you're framing it as "if they say NO, they're saying or implying it's bad music no matter the quality level", when we don't do that at all. There are enough people who have had a submission rejected who will vouch for that. Again, no offense taken, but the accusations are just silly. Maybe we can add your PC language elaborating on "it's not necessarily bad", BUT given your POV, I don't see how adding that would satisfy what you perceive as the judges being soul-crushing douches. But us offering positive feedback or saying something's good despite being outside the standards happens often when we hear promising submissions. You need to read through decisions and recognize you're wrong on that.

J (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20221)u (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22410)d (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20565)g (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21379)e (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20775)s (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21640) n (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22754)e (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22732)v (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22641)e (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22761)r (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22767) s (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22765)a (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21636)y (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22773) a (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22764)n (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20173)y (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22949)t (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23065)h (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23074)i (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23082)n (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23084)g (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22726) n (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23127)i (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23072)c (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23442)e (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23444). (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19081) A (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23506)n (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23507)d (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23445) t (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23660)h (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23664)a (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23665)t (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23659)' (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22534)s (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23449) just (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23078) page 1 (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22762).

I just linked all 36 NO threads on page 1 of Decisions without exception. WHEN you read through them, you will realize you're 100% wrong. Are we really having this discussion? Really? You bitch and moan about the judges being unsupportive and saying we're not clarifying to people that their work isn't necessarily bad, and YET you don't read a goddamn thing we say. You don't read shit. :lol:

[SoulinEther]

Why is it that there's always been controversy/misconceptions about the goals of this place, and how this site hopes to attain those goals through the artists, their music and the community? I mostly get this impression from all the write-ups I've read... and the fact that since i've been frequenting the forums there has been (quiet and usually small) debate on the subject.

You know, the mission reads very vague, kinda like the US Constitution, and was written by the founding fathers (Using quills made of pretzel/In melted milky chocolate dripping). The submission standards, though quite concise, are elusive, particularly concerning arrangement ("remix? huh?"), and all one can do in the process of submitting a remix is to compare their completed work to other fine workes and recent precedent in terms of arrangement and production, pray, and really i'm not too sure because I've never done this before.

The judges really are like Supreme Court. Obviously. So why am I still talking? It's (relatively) hard to bring a remix before the judges panel. It takes like... five months for the courts to even address your request for their attention. If you're really lucky and they grant you certiorari (though there aren't really any lower appellate courts here..?), THEN they have to evaluate your remix to make sure it matches up to the broad goals found in the site mission and to consider whether or not the remix in question meets the standards, or that somehow the remix in question ought to change the standards. And they don't even allow attorneys to argue the case for the remixers! However, there have been amicus curiae from time to time called to lend their expert opinions to the judges -- mind you, these are judges who essentially have a lifetime appointment until they decide to retire or commit a high crime or misdemeanor. Then, after "hearing" your case (which may in fact require multiple listens), you gotta wait like five years for the results to be made really public. Curious that even though the judges tend to vote unanimously, everyone must write a concurrent opinion. You'd think they'd discuss these things through in their bat-cave and appoint one person to write the opinion of the high court but nooo.

So, what I'm saying is.. I know, I shouldn't say this, the cameras are rolling and everything .. the judges essentially make federal policy and, in the absence of lower appellate courts, state policy as well.

DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M SAYING PEOPLE? OC REMIX HAS TURNED INTO A MINIATURE VERSION OF THE UNITED STATES... EXCEPT THERE IS NO LEGISLATIVE BRANCH! That was the point of it ALL ALONG, PEOPLE. We should totally throw a tea party up in here! I know some nanas who can throw a real GREAT TEA PARTY! Or, even better, secede from the union!

Uh, so my overall point was... this place is fairly complex, and from the outside you might not appreciate what kind of a system is put in place to interpret a vague mission by regulating what submitted remixes are acceptable. The judges are fairly loose-constructionists, though they've got a good feel for what's good what's no bueno for the present... like the U.S., OCR has managed to last fairly long, though not 100% the same throughout the years.

...
I'm not drunk, high, nor stoned, but I hope I have entertained you with an analogy with a goal to describe OCR that might hold some water (but not in the court of law :/) that probably applied only 5 pages ago and will be lost to the world upon the shedding of next nightfall's tender terminal tear.

[/derrierespeak]

[abg]

I've been on the recieving end of some NOes for technicalities, and honestly each time it happened the judges all said my remixes were well done irregardless. Just pointing out that they didn't tell me I was awful because I didn't meet some arbitrary arrangement percentage, but instead encouraged what I did well and I learned what not to do if I wanted more remixes up here. I was still kind of sour about it at first anyways but life goes on :)

Perhaps calling them submission standards allows for some misinterpretation. Standards sounds like the short form of "quality control standards", and while I'm sure most of the submissions aren't high enough quality anyways, the people who make the remixes that are of high quality that have gotten rejected anyways would feel like they were told "sorry, its not good enough for our standards", which... well, it's hard to explain but it doesnt sound very pleasant right? What I'm trying to say is that it's all in the semantics.

On the subject this thread was originally about, I just wanna say that I've been following (lurking) around this place for about 8 years now and I honestly find myself downloading more remixes now than I ever used to. All the "regulars" have gotten really good and the standards are at the right place that I can feel comfortable downloading a remix from a new mixer I've never even heard of before.

[TenchuX]

Not to offend, but I hate to inform you that you are seemingly uneducated on the matter.

http://remix.thasauce.net/song/RTS0004/

This song was NO'd. And I assure you Shnab doesn't need much growing.

I'm sure Larry or some of the other judges can back me up in saying just because a song gets a NO does not necessarily mean someone has to GROW at all. Simply that they don't fall within OCReMix's (somewhat strict at times) standards.

I sincerely hope that clears up the misconception that "rejected songs are bad."

Going on top of what Rama said.

http://remix.thasauce.net/song/RTS0037/ was also given a no and and music wise it is a great listen. I recall it was given a no because it didn't use enough of the source.

Many people also don't remember that even bLinD has been no'ed (remember his fan popular F-Zero MegaMix). Given a no because it was too similar to the original source, not because of it's great sound.

http://remix.thasauce.net/song/RTS0040/ this song I did was no'ed like bLinD's mix due to being to close to the source, however since I loved the song the way it was I chose to never change it and thus never resubmitted.

So yeah... I don't think a NO has to do with a person growing at all.

I think a common misconception that people have is that proven OCR remixers get their work tossed up on the site with ease, and that's simply not the case if their song doesn't measure to the guidelines that this site has set for music ie. interpretation, source usage, quality etc. A song can sound great and that's awesome, but this site like stated earlier, has a unique mission when it comes to the music on it.

[SempaiMiles]

Not to offend, but I hate to inform you that you are seemingly uneducated on the matter.

http://remix.thasauce.net/song/RTS0004/

This song was NO'd. And I assure you Shnab doesn't need much growing.

I'm sure Larry or some of the other judges can back me up in saying just because a song gets a NO does not necessarily mean someone has to GROW at all. Simply that they don't fall within OCReMix's (somewhat strict at times) standards.

I sincerely hope that clears up the misconception that "rejected songs are bad."

I'm far from uneducated in the matter, and I never said anything about a NO being "bad." I just come from the school of "life is learning." Let me rephrase what I said - growth is learning.

I'm a visual artist, not a musical one, but I still face the idea of rejection and critique the same as you musicians every day. I'm sure you can name the famous composer who's dying words were (paraprhased) "It's a shame, I've not yet mastered woodwinds."

No offense taken, I just believe the sky is the limit for growth and that there's always something new to learn, sometimes it just takes someone else to point it out! :)

*edit* Also, see Larry's post above! */edit*

[Trygon]

Re: quality level, I advised a friend that wants to get into DJing to go directly to WIP and read. OCR is an amazing place for a hobbyist to transform into a professional-caliber musician.

As for charm lacking in newer mixes, I heard Zelda on a beer bottle last week.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

If you think the new mixes don't have the same soul as the old ones, just listen to it on a shitty soundcard and all will be fine.

[prophetik]

I think a common misconception that people have is that proven OCR remixers get their work tossed up on the site with ease, and that's simply not the case if their song doesn't measure to the guidelines that this site has set for music ie. interpretation, source usage, quality etc. A song can sound great and that's awesome, but this site like stated earlier, has a unique mission when it comes to the music on it.

i agree with this, completely.

my fourth ocr submission was posted, as was my fifth. i had nine - count them, nine - rejections until my next posted mix, and that was over the course of four years during which i went from a one-trick wonder to a professional soundtrack composer. and i've still had mixes canned with frequency since becoming a composer.

i still don't consider myself anywhere near a lot of the artists on this site, those of which also have rejections. i just got lucky with a job offer or two.

[PhiJayy]

It could also be because as I've learned more as a producer, I've realized that some techniques I thought were basically magical are really quite simple.

Wow...same here. I use to think EQ was magical, although I kinda still do.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I think a common misconception that people have is that proven OCR remixers get their work tossed up on the site with ease, and that's simply not the case if their song doesn't measure to the guidelines that this site has set for music ie. interpretation, source usage, quality etc. A song can sound great and that's awesome, but this site like stated earlier, has a unique mission when it comes to the music on it.

Completely true. And completely obvious, if you look at recent judges decisions; just looking at the first page, there are rejected mixes by such proven artists as halcyon (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22534) and sixto (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23074).

[Liontamer]

Completely true. And completely obvious, if you look at recent judges decisions; just looking at the first page, there are rejected mixes by such proven artists as halcyon (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22534) and sixto (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23074).

Clearly, they're "not part of the clique." :lol:

[Bleck]

you guys are rejecting sixto

that's it everybody we're starting an insurrection

[JJT]

I'm sure Larry or some of the other judges can back me up in saying just because a song gets a NO does not necessarily mean someone has to GROW at all. Simply that they don't fall within OCReMix's (somewhat strict at times) standards.

rejected submission from judge (at the time): http://remix.thasauce.net/song/RTS0113/

decision: http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12719

[SwordBreaker]

For people (judges and otherwise) denying favoritism and bias, I gotta say that's an extremely bold statement that I simply don't believe. I find it weird that some of the posters here finding bias to be wrong. Quite the contrary, ALL of us are biased. To rephrase a quote from one of Godzilla 2000: "there's a small bias in every one of us!" It's called opinion. We all have different tastes, things that we like and hate, etc...this is the basis of forming opinions and critiques. Without bias and favoritism, we're soulless. Of course, everything has a limit...and sometimes it gets painfully obvious when you "bash madly" or "love fanboyishly"...but again, that's what makes each of us unique. When you're a critic, on the other hand, you have to keep those in control...and when you don't, you'll either get bashed or respected for voicing off your opinion. Vicious cycle indeed. Either way, you're forming a name for yourself because of your opinion. Not everyone will unanimously agree with you, yet you'll find a lot of supporters.

That's how most of us basically pick our favorite pieces here in OCR (old or new), including me. I like certain remixers, certain game soundtracks, certain genres...it's more of these factors and less of how "OCR musicians are raising the bar in terms of production, arrangement, etc".

As an example, most of you people have been praising that Zelda Heineken track like no tomorrow...while I find it to be extremely gimmicky and repetitive, with all due respect to the remixer. It's just not my taste at all. You want a cool Zelda track? Listen to this:

http://dod.vgmix.com/past/2009-may/02-Harjalwaldar-ZLttP-Utopia-DoD.mp3

Now that's solid gold right there. So soothing. So amazing. Acoustic guitars. An ALttP track that hasn't been remixed at all. I find this to be OCR quality, while some judges may not simply because "it follows the original too closely" or "there's something a bit off with the recording". While that'll piss me off, it's not the end of the world 'cause I don't think I can push my opinion upon others. Judges already built their reputations with critiquing a lot of songs over the years. You want your name heard? Go to the reviews thread and post as much as possible. You may even be picked as a judge someday. Something about your "bias" will attract people. Simple as that.

The Evolution of OCR = The Evolution of Listeners' Opinions

[Liontamer]

1) Obviously there's some degree of subjectivity involved in applying the standards, because judges can have differing opinions on various mixes. No one's disputing that, and our process works that way by design, not by accident. Otherwise you wouldn't need judges, you could just use a checklist.

Bias is a term used to described a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, especially when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective.

The underlined second part of the definition is what we're concerned about eliminating on the panel. We want the first part in a sense because our ideology is our standards, and our standards are independent from our personal music preferences. Also, being fair to each track isn't just about having an earnest opinion. Look at SgtRama's & starla's quotes a couple of posts ago with their nonsense; you can be earnest and be 100% wrong. It's also about having a good grasp of the standards so that you're applying them in a reasonable, consistent way.

Where you go wrong is implying we claim we don't or can't have opinions, and that having an opinion displays a "lack of control" in the context of being a critic. What I'm saying is that we aren't in the business of arbitrarily applying the standards with favoritism and bias, i.e. voting against our better judgement in spite of what we're listening to.

2) Your argument about our "bias" potentially in action is you giving negative hypotheticals on what we could say about that DoD track you linked, when a) there's no cut-and-dry arrangement call against it and b) the production is good, and no judge would say the production was messed up. It's a straw man argument, and I'd recommend not assuming that kind of stuff.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

For people (judges and otherwise) denying favoritism and bias, I gotta say that's an extremely bold statement that I simply don't believe. I find it weird that some of the posters here finding bias to be wrong. Quite the contrary, ALL of us are biased. To rephrase a quote from one of Godzilla 2000: "there's a small bias in every one of us!" It's called opinion. We all have different tastes, things that we like and hate, etc...this is the basis of forming opinions and critiques. Without bias and favoritism, we're soulless. Of course, everything has a limit...and sometimes it gets painfully obvious when you "bash madly" or "love fanboyishly"...but again, that's what makes each of us unique. When you're a critic, on the other hand, you have to keep those in control...and when you don't, you'll either get bashed or respected for voicing off your opinion. Vicious cycle indeed. Either way, you're forming a name for yourself because of your opinion. Not everyone will unanimously agree with you, yet you'll find a lot of supporters.

That's how most of us basically pick our favorite pieces here in OCR (old or new), including me. I like certain remixers, certain game soundtracks, certain genres...it's more of these factors and less of how "OCR musicians are raising the bar in terms of production, arrangement, etc".

As an example, most of you people have been praising that Zelda Heineken track like no tomorrow...while I find it to be extremely gimmicky and repetitive, with all due respect to the remixer. It's just not my taste at all. You want a cool Zelda track? Listen to this:

http://dod.vgmix.com/past/2009-may/02-Harjalwaldar-ZLttP-Utopia-DoD.mp3

Now that's solid gold right there. So soothing. So amazing. Acoustic guitars. An ALttP track that hasn't been remixed at all. I find this to be OCR quality, while some judges may not simply because "it follows the original too closely" or "there's something a bit off with the recording". While that'll piss me off, it's not the end of the world 'cause I don't think I can push my opinion upon others. Judges already built their reputations with critiquing a lot of songs over the years. You want your name heard? Go to the reviews thread and post as much as possible. You may even be picked as a judge someday. Something about your "bias" will attract people. Simple as that.

The Evolution of OCR = The Evolution of Listeners' Opinions

Different type of biased from that being discussed. When we say there's no bias or favoritism, we mean that well-known remixers don't automatically get posted just because they're well known.

[SwordBreaker]

Where you go wrong is implying we claim we don't or can't have opinions, and that having an opinion displays a "lack of control" in the context of being a critic. What I'm saying is that we aren't in the business of arbitrarily applying the standards with favoritism and bias, i.e. voting against our better judgement in spite of what we're listening to.

2) Your argument about our "bias" potentially in action is you giving negative hypotheticals on what we could say about that DoD track you linked, when a) there's no cut-and-dry arrangement call against it and b) the production is good, and no judge would say the production was messed up. It's a straw man argument, and I'd recommend not assuming that kind of stuff.

I didn't mean to imply that you can't have opinions whatsoever. I wanted to convey that it's good to have a detailed opinion on something while keeping "the standards" in mind. Even going "overboard" at times can be good within reason of course. You judges have that balance. Even if people don't like that, it's how OCR has been working for the past couple of years. I'm not against this at all. Rules are rules. It's just that at times "my bias" kicks in to tracks I love/hate. I can't control that.

Also, about that example, I wanted to add the word "hypothetical" in there but decided against it for some reason. Maybe I should've done it. Either way, I didn't write that example to put OCR in a negative light. I was just trying to show how much of a gray area we're talking about here. There's no black and white when it comes to this stuff at all, but I feel that you're trying so hard to draw a line when there's no need to. OCR remixers who are frequent contributors deserve a slightly positive first-impression and/or priority over newbies or people who aren't that talented...because they mostly deliver on all fonts and listeners would like more of these particular artists. It's just sad that people think it's a "clique" thing 'cause it really isn't.

[Mustin]

Holy Nut Snax! That Zelda mix is great!!

Oh, and SwordBreaker, that track HAS been covered ;)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001ISSLTU/ref=dm_dp_trk11?ie=UTF8&qid=1243978281&sr=103-3

[Gario]

Holy Nut Snax! That Zelda mix is great!!

Second that... really nice mix, there (although not enough variation from the source :tomatoface:).

[Deathtank]

http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00028/

'Nuff said.

LOL And I used to think that José the bronx rican's Thank you DeeJay was the first remix to have spanish lirycs. :lol:
THanks for opening my ey...I mean ears. :wink:

[SwordBreaker]

Holy Nut Snax! That Zelda mix is great!!

Oh, and SwordBreaker, that track HAS been covered ;)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001ISSLTU/ref=dm_dp_trk11?ie=UTF8&qid=1243978281&sr=103-3

I completely forgot it. I actually own that album!

Well...hasn't been covered MUCH is a better statement. :P

[ZealPath]

Second that... really nice mix, there (although not enough variation from the source :tomatoface:).
Would have to agree, and I think a mix like that could be used as an example of a situation where a song doesn't necessarily have to be "OCR material" to be "good," if that makes sense. I imagine there are a lot of situations where the judges really digged a mix but it didn't quite make the OCR standards, which does not automatically mean said mix was garbage (which I only bring up since SOMETIMES it seems like people will interpret a NO that way).

[Liontamer]

Worth noting that Zelda Heineken was an obvious pass, so that makes no sense to bring it up as an example of something that's not "OCR material"; it's posted with our current standards in mind, ergo it's "OCR material".

[ZealPath]

Personally I was referring to the Acostic Guitar ALttP mix from VGMix that SwordBreaker linked to when I made that statement, just in case there was any confusion (I guess "that Zelda mix" could mean a lot of things though). In other words a song that I enjoyed listening to (which is what I meant by "good"), that happens to not be on OCR.

I certainly did not feel that ZH was not OCR material, if anything it was a good example of the more interesting approach to getting on OCR, imo.

[Liontamer]

My fault; I thought "Zelda Heineken" was being referred to, given SwordBreaker's original mention of it. That said, "Utopia" was very nice. And as I just said about it, I dunno if the arrangement concerns are that cut and dry, given the ideas in the second half, BUT I don't have my judging hat on. That said, I wouldn't write it off.

Also, Doug's avoiding saying the obvious "I was wrong" about the judges always being meanie-faces to the submitters and implying all rejections were bad music; he STILL hasn't owned up. C'mon, I'm waiting. You didn't look at anything before you complained. He still thinks Prot's on the panel. :lol:

[Gario]

I think a mix like that could be used as an example of a situation where a song doesn't necessarily have to be "OCR material" to be "good," if that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense... I seem to find myself listening to all sorts of good music in the WIP forums that I know will never get on OCR due to the criteria that the music needs to meet (too little or too much source usage doesn't make the music bad - but it certainly will not get the music on OCR).

Another case-in-point is this song (http://www.update.uu.se/%7Elidbjork/nintendo_slask/democracy_socialist_mp3ogg/12%20-%20Achilles%20Mega%20Man%20and%20the%20Silver%20Su rfer.mp3)... It's got the classic case of medley-itis (of course, he didn't submit this version here, either - don't worry, J's :P). However, I love this song to death (frankly, it's one of my favorites around) - just because it's a medley in it's structure doesn't mean it's bad music - it just means you won't find it on OCR.

[Liontamer]

Also, Doug's avoiding saying the obvious "I was wrong" about the judges always being meanie-faces to the submitters and implying all rejections were bad music; he STILL hasn't owned up. C'mon, I'm waiting. You didn't look at anything before you complained. He still thinks Prot's on the panel. :lol:

Just bumping because he punked out. I'm not mad, but if you're flat out wrong, you need to own up. :tomatoface: You know I'll keep bumping this until I get my concession, Doug. :lol:

[Meteo Xavier]

Larry! Larry!
He's our guy!
'fyu fuck with him
Prepare to die!

>:D

[dPaladin]

I don't know what this thread turned into, but I think the higher quality of remixes now stems from increased submissions. Since there's a larger supply of remixes, the standards can afford to be tightened a little. That doesn't mean the early mixes were bad. In fact, the vast majority of them were great. It just means there are fewer bad remixes now, as opposed to there being more good ones.

If that makes sense.

Also I should think it would be obvious that the judges are biased. Like... too obvious to even discuss. There are no set objective standards for what constitutes "OCR material," and there's even less agreement on what constitutes good music in general. It's not possible to judge music without some form of bias.

However, relatively speaking the judges are no more biased than anyone else.

[Salluz]

We all have our musical preferences (and exceptions) when it comes to setup and quality, but all in all, the judges know skillful music when they hear it. They have knowledge as well as natural inclination; they know "good" when they hear it. Also, no one's getting any profits off of what's being heard so it's definitely more about the music.

I don't think that bias is bad in every sense. In fact it can be good. Are we speaking of quality or genre?

The judges seem to listen a song itself: the idea (a creative idea), the "hype" of a familiar mix (everyone likes to hear a redo of a song they really love), vibe (the mood and setting of a song; what it's good for), arrangement (chorus, break, verse, abstract, etc), composition (chords, melodies, harmonies, countermelodies, arpeggios, velocity, accent, reciprocity, etc), and whatever else you could name.

As long as the judges are familiar with almost or all kinds of music, I'm cool. I don't care if it's engineered, acoustic or both, good is good and garbage is garbage.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDQihTLoofk)

[po!]

hmm quite a thread here...

i'll start by saying that i am one of the people who think that newer music has a different feel to it. i don't wanna say it's lacking anything or doesn't have "soul" but there's something different. this sentence kinda explains what i'm talking about


Some people, odd as it may seem, aren't making music for OverClocked ReMix.


back in the day, there was no such thing as making music for OCR. there wasn't really any specific judging criteria, and people did just make music for fun

but as time went on, the judging criteria got more specific, and this concept of an "OCReMix" started to take a life of its own. people started asking "how can i make an OCReMix to get on the site?" and "how do i OCReMix?".. as if OCReMixing is something different than music making in general

i do think that it has evolved into something different, something shaped by the judges criteria. with the goal of creating an OCReMix, somebody is going to specifically and purposefully adhere to the criteria to obtain that goal. that inherently alters the feel of the resulting music such that it becomes an OCReMix

some people might retort that the criteria only "raises the bar" and promotes more "good" music. i really have to disagree, as any set of criteria is going to impose restrictions and steer the resulting music in a particular direction, no matter how open or "we accept all types of music" it may seem.

and basically that's what i sort of feel is different with today's music on OCR. some of it has the feel that it was constructed to specifically meet the criteria. when that happens, a sense of freedom is lost.. the sense when an artist has complete freedom and can create anything within the musical universe, instead of being boxed in by judging criteria

as an example, the term "OCR trance" is used to describe some trance music on this site, as if it's different from "real trance." i'm not going to debate whether that's really true or not, but the fact that that term exists and some people feel that way shows what i mean.. that there has become a difference between an OCReMix and other "normal" music that has been shaped by judging criteria

hopefully i'm getting my point across since it's sorta difficult to explain...

[Salluz]

hopefully i'm getting my point across since it's sorta difficult to explain...Makes complete sense to me.

[Aninymouse]

unmod

prot

sidebar

no more unmod

diaspora

mediocrity

but seriously I love you guys ◕◡◕

[Bahamut]

hmm quite a thread here...

i'll start by saying that i am one of the people who think that newer music has a different feel to it. i don't wanna say it's lacking anything or doesn't have "soul" but there's something different. this sentence kinda explains what i'm talking about

Some people, odd as it may seem, aren't making music for OverClocked ReMix.

back in the day, there was no such thing as making music for OCR. there wasn't really any specific judging criteria, and people did just make music for fun

but as time went on, the judging criteria got more specific, and this concept of an "OCReMix" started to take a life of its own. people started asking "how can i make an OCReMix to get on the site?" and "how do i OCReMix?".. as if OCReMixing is something different than music making in general

i do think that it has evolved into something different, something shaped by the judges criteria. with the goal of creating an OCReMix, somebody is going to specifically and purposefully adhere to the criteria to obtain that goal. that inherently alters the feel of the resulting music such that it becomes an OCReMix

some people might retort that the criteria only "raises the bar" and promotes more "good" music. i really have to disagree, as any set of criteria is going to impose restrictions and steer the resulting music in a particular direction, no matter how open or "we accept all types of music" it may seem.

and basically that's what i sort of feel is different with today's music on OCR. some of it has the feel that it was constructed to specifically meet the criteria. when that happens, a sense of freedom is lost.. the sense when an artist has complete freedom and can create anything within the musical universe, instead of being boxed in by judging criteria

as an example, the term "OCR trance" is used to describe some trance music on this site, as if it's different from "real trance." i'm not going to debate whether that's really true or not, but the fact that that term exists and some people feel that way shows what i mean.. that there has become a difference between an OCReMix and other "normal" music that has been shaped by judging criteria

hopefully i'm getting my point across since it's sorta difficult to explain...

I sure hope nobody is truly making music just to get on OCR. There may be a few who do that, but thinking of artists off the top of my head while I've been catching up on the last 250 posted ReMixes or so, I can't think of any who might've been doing so with their posted music. For example, take a look at the following list of people who have posted mix(es):

Another Soundscape
AeroZ
Audix
Beatdrop
Big Giant Circles
bLiNd
bustatunez
Children of the Monkey Machine
DarkeSword
DiggiDis
Dhsu
DrumUltima
Fishy
Game Over
Geoffrey Taucer
Hemophiliac
ilp0
JigginJonT
Joshua Morse
Level 99
Kidd Cabbage
Mazedude
Nekofrog
Nicole Adams
norg
Nutritious
OA
Palpable
Patrick Burns
pixietricks
ScaredSim
sixto
tepid
Tensei (Joren de Bruin)
The Orichalcon
The Prophet of Mephisto
Tweek
Willrock
zoola
zyko
zircon

(This is a short list of people off the top of my head, not meant to offend anyone I didn't mention)

I do not see any of that in their music where they're altering their music just to get posted on OCR. In fact, I would argue that comments from the likes of judges have helped a good deal of them improve (some of them have/are judges though, so they probably get comments more freely). In fact, if someone was trying to make their music for OCR, I'd wager it'd lead to he/she to abandon the creative process that works the best for him/her & be a barrier to getting a track posted.

I do understand that there is something about the judging criteria seems to evoke some criticism of OCR, but I haven't come upon a reason that adequately explains it (although I'm sure that it exists, just someone hasn't been acute enough to identify it and articulate enough to explain it).

[Meteo Xavier]

(This is a short list of people off the top of my head, not meant to offend anyone I didn't mention)


Would you mind if I got offended anyway? :)

[Liontamer]

There's nothing inherently wrong with someone making an OC ReMix because they want the e-fame or e-penis or whatever you get from having a mix posted. Jared Hudson, SGX and Star Salzman have said they like the praise and exposure the most. Some people think that's not an allowable way of looking at it, and even I don't prefer it, but there's nothing wrong with that. As long as the music is enjoyable, the listeners generally don't really care what the motive is.

Some of those people Wes mentioned have modified tracks to get on OCR (e.g. AeroZ, OA, Nutritious and Willrock have resubbed mixes before), but not necessarily in a way that runs contrary to their creative process or personal enjoyment. If anyone has, they really shouldn't have.

I'm always an advocate of making an arrangement however you want, and if it's eligible for here, that's great. Unlike whatever Doug has insisted on, we make it pretty clear when something's a good piece of music that happens to be outside the standards.

When Js make suggestions for resubmissions, we hope the artist feels they'll improve the song in a way they're personally happy with, that they only take suggestions on that level, and that they pass on whatever doesn't work with their vision for the piece. I remember years ago pretty soon after I joined the panel, Darangen resubbed a mix and lamented to me that he was unsatisfied with it because it was becoming less of what he wanted. I had to make it clear that we're not implying you have to turn a piece of music into something you're personally dissatisfied with; that's stupid. We're not clients, we're not paying anyone to make the music, and we're not asking for something to be built with very specific specs. We only want artists to tweak a mix or make a mix with OCR's guidelines in mind because they want to make it that way, not to conform against their better judgement.

I can't go with the implication that the standards are a bad, stifling thing that's mutually exclusive with fun. :lol: It just seems like the natural progression of "the rules are limiting my artistic freedom" is throwing out all rules and saying this place should be run as "goodmusicwebsitewithnocommontheme.com", which is over the top. Obviously there's limitations involved in making an OC ReMix. Discouraging MIDIs and direct sampling does limit some options, sure. But if using the source material a lot, producing it reasonably well and not creating a pure cover is too limiting of their freedom, then this isn't the place for them. I think most people look at the OCR guidelines as encouraging their own creativity, not discouraging. Coming at the standards from a negative point of view assumes that no one has ever used them as a positive creative influence and channeled that towards making a piece of music that they like.

[Bahamut]

I meant altering in a way that destroys their creativity...but yeah Larry gets it.

[djpretzel]

Maybe I'm missing something, but if people want to make music with absolutely no guidelines or restrictions, it seems like requiring that it be related to VGM at all in the first place would qualify as such a restriction. This isn't a file-hosting service, it's a site with a more specific point/focus. Once you set the initial basic rule of "has to be from a video game," you're already doing what po mentioned - restricting the scope. However, if you DON'T set that guideline, you're basically running a glorified file-hosting service, as I see it. Nothing wrong with that, but there's plenty of sites filling that role, and it has very little to do with what we're about.

Furthermore, while I would agree that our submission standards do restrict the scope of what can be submitted (& accepted), I don't think they necessarily restrict creativity per se. That's like saying any poet who only worked in forms was inherently less creative than poets working in free verse. Amadeus, Bach, etc. must all have been severely restricted as well, since they too worked within formal structures. Granted, they're considered masters because they helped evolve those forms, and had a knack for knowing where they could bend and break the rules, but there was still structure.

We too have structure. I feel that when we revised our standards, with the help of the community, we really did ensure that those standards were as unrestrictive as possible, to allow for quite a diverse spectrum of music that all qualifies as an "OC ReMix". I'm very proud of the document itself, and even more proud of the way artist after artist has managed to create badass, diverse, and continually evolving pieces of music that all magically somehow fit EASILY within its scope.

That's what I think.

Also, if the Mega Man 2, Faxanadu, and Rygar mixes we JUST posted don't reflect the radical departure and deviation artists can take creatively within our standards, I don't know what would...

[anosou]

Maybe I'm missing something, but if people want to make music with absolutely no guidelines or restrictions, it seems like requiring that it be related to VGM at all in the first place would qualify as such a restriction. This isn't a file-hosting service, it's a site with a more specific point/focus. Once you set the initial basic rule of "has to be from a video game," you're already doing what po mentioned - restricting the scope. However, if you DON'T set that guideline, you're basically running a glorified file-hosting service, as I see it. Nothing wrong with that, but there's plenty of sites filling that role, and it has very little to do with what we're about.

Furthermore, while I would agree that our submission standards do restrict the scope of what can be submitted (& accepted), I don't think they necessarily restrict creativity per se. That's like saying any poet who only worked in forms was inherently less creative than poets working in free verse. Amadeus, Bach, etc. must all have been severely restricted as well, since they too worked within formal structures. Granted, they're considered masters because they helped evolve those forms, and had a knack for knowing where they could bend and break the rules, but there was still structure.

We too have structure. I feel that when we revised our standards, with the help of the community, we really did ensure that those standards were as unrestrictive as possible, to allow for quite a diverse spectrum of music that all qualifies as an "OC ReMix". I'm very proud of the document itself, and even more proud of the way artist after artist has managed to create badass, diverse, and continually evolving pieces of music that all magically somehow fit EASILY within its scope.

That's what I think.

Also, if the Mega Man 2, Faxanadu, and Rygar mixes we JUST posted don't reflect the radical departure and deviation artists can take creatively within our standards, I don't know what would...

This. A thousand times this.

[Palpable]

Haha had a big long post written out only to realize Dave and Larry covered most of it. I agree with them, but I do see po's point. When a site like this gradually reduces its scope, it could definitely appear like people are consciously changing their music to conform to the changing standards. It's especially true when people from the early days still get posted here. But something that's important to remember is that the standards have not changed significantly for years, at least since I started hanging around in 2003. I don't think most people getting posted here now are conforming their music to standards; it's more that the music they want to make DOES conform to the standards. That is absolutely true for me, it's part of reason I like this place so much, and I'd bet it's true for most people who stick around.

Not to say I wouldn't tweak things on a mix in order to get posted, but if I'm not happy with changing a song, I won't do it. I'd recommend that to anyone submitting.

[Nekofrog]

If I could change one thing about the requirements, it would be the filesize limit. We live in the age of broadband, 6MB is usually enough but there ARE cases when it can be limiting.

For example, the FF7 / Xenogears remix I subbed ran 7:30-something originally and even with VBR I still couldn't get it to 6MB without sacrificing a LOT in the way of quality. That one kind of hurt, but I made cuts in the piece the best I could to get it under 6MB

[OA]

I happily update tracks that end up being below the bar where production is concerned, as that only makes the track better.

If I happen to do a song where the arrangement doesn't fit OCR right, that's fine too; as Doug 'n friendz run a perfectly awesome site (http://thasauce.net/) that will host game tracks. I've had a few that were basically covers, and a few that were a little too out there, and they have a lovely home now, even though they don't fit the goals of OCR. It's a beautiful world we live in. :-D

[Sinewav]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only hack amateur remixer around here who actually LIKES, having an extremely high standard around here. It means that I have to work at it and make my music better. It would be boring and wouldn't help me grow as a musician very much if everything I pulled out of my ass got accepted.

It also means that when I get on here to just to listen to some tunes, I'm almost always guaranteed something of very high quality. Sure there's some good stuff that gets rejected too, but that's what ThaSauce and other sites are for.

[DrumUltimA]

I'm always an advocate of making an arrangement however you want, and if it's eligible for here, that's great. Unlike whatever Doug has insisted on, we make it pretty clear when something's a good piece of music that happens to be outside the standards.

Uh buh... which doug are we talking about? :O

as for my take... i'm not gonna lie: very frequently, when making a remix, I am custom tailoring it to ocr's standards. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, for me the boundaries present a challenge. That's why I do things like improvisations, the all percussion mix, this all vocal mix I'm working on--I like to see how well I can fit those standards while doing something different. There's a lot of stuff I do for fun that I would NEVER submit to ocr, just because I know it doesn't meet the standards. But in the end, i do see po's point (but with not as negative of a light), I do consider OCRemix to be sort of it's own macrogenre of music. As the bar continues to raise, well, it becomes difficult to see it--or rather, define it. It's important for remixers to realize this. A good arrangement doesn't mean a perfect balance of source and original content, and if you wrote an amazing arrangement that sounds like a midi you still have an amazing piece on your hands. The only reason it didn't get on OCR is because it wasn't right for OCR.

[Ramaniscence]

Uh buh... which doug are we talking about? :O

He's talking about comments I made in #ocremix while under heavy pressure from multiple parties for unimportant reason that were brought into this thread even though they have little to do with the actual discussion and most people don't even know what it's about.

That conversation should've ended in the channel, and it did. Me and djp discussed (and are still discussing despite Embarq's efforts otherwise) what went on in there, and it's really not anyone else's business.

[Gario]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only hack amateur remixer around here who actually LIKES, having an extremely high standard around here.

Nah - I'm a hack remixer who really loves the raising standards of this site (as it prevents me from embarrassing myself with old music that was really crap-tastic).

Go OCR! 8)

[Patrick Burns]

As DJP said, it's only natural for a nostalgia community to be nostalgic, but I think there is a little nugget of truth coming from the current dissenters. There's nothing wrong with the guidelines or the system in place, it's just that the social atmosphere has changed unavoidably as site's traffic has increased.

With longer queue times and a bigger distinction between readers and artists, I think things feel more serious than they used to, and experimentation, risk, and humor (the bedrock of creativity, imo) aren't as balls to the walls as they used to be. Of course, other sites such as OLR and VGM have arisen to fill-in where OCR has moved on from, but I think people understandably miss having the single stage for everything.

And I think that's the main issue. As the VG music community has grown, OCR has taken the necessary position of herding the most "polished" arrangements and productions while other focuses have been fragmenting around it. It's not anyone's fault, it's just evolution.

That said, I think having more social features on OCR, or web 2.0 as it were, is the right direction to remedy some of this.

[1337 1]

That said, I think having more social features on OCR, or web 2.0 as it were, is the right direction to remedy some of this.

To be more correct, that may be one direction to remedy this. There is never a cure all solution, especially with a community like this one. At which point, I still maintain that this community has been one of the best ones around that I've been on. Other communities I've been with have gone to the dogs, but this one has stayed true to its nature. This isn't to say it hasn't changed; it has definitely gotten more serious in some areas, but in others, it has expanded (I cite the increasing number of gaming groups, such as those for starcraft and TF2, as well as the other "misc gaming" threads and groups, such as the recent "16 bit gaming art" thread as evidence) on its old "just for fun" nature IMHO. That said, other older members of OCR might not feel the same; but that's just another piece of the whole thing.

I guess, in the end, for one to expect a community to remain static is folly; people change as individuals, and that change will be reflected in the community as people enter, leave and contribute to the community. This applies on all scales and to all elements, the way I see it.

[Liontamer]

He's talking about comments I made in #ocremix while under heavy pressure from multiple parties for unimportant reason that were brought into this thread even though they have little to do with the actual discussion and most people don't even know what it's about.

That conversation should've ended in the channel, and it did. Me and djp discussed (and are still discussing despite Embarq's efforts otherwise) what went on in there, and it's really not anyone else's business.

[00:34] <@Ramaniscenc> I'm sorry, do YOU want to be the one to tell him that a NO doesn't mean it's a bad song?
[00:34] <@Ramaniscenc> Because you don't seem to do that often
[00:34] <@Ramaniscenc> Nor do other judges

Again, I'm not mad, but if you're going to talk trash about me & the rest of the judges "under heavy pressure" and for everyone to read, it involves me. When you get disproven after links to 36 decisions in a row (because you don't actually read Judges Decisions), the LEAST you can do is admit "OK, I was just saying whatever. My mistake." Right now, you're just giving me a weak excuse, but I'll have to take it, because that's all you're willing to say. "I was under pressure", whatever that's supposed to mean. :lol: Say what you will about the process, but it's clear as day if you READ the decisions that we're not implying to everyone that rejected subs are bad music, and we also don't relax or tighten standards depending on the who the submitter is, unlike what Starla said. The beauty of it is that we don't need you to believe it in order for it to be true. :lol: As long as you have conspiracy theories on how we operate and assume bad faith, we're gonna have this problem.

[Ramaniscence]

Again, I'm not mad, but if you're going to talk trash about me & the rest of the judges "under heavy pressure" and for everyone to read, it involves me. When you get disproven after links to 36 decisions in a row (because you don't actually read Judges Decisions), the LEAST you can do is admit "OK, I was just saying whatever. My mistake." Right now, you're just giving me a weak excuse, but I'll have to take it, because that's all you're willing to say. "I was under pressure", whatever that's supposed to mean. :lol: Say what you will about the process, but it's clear as day if you READ the decisions that we're not implying to everyone that rejected subs are bad music, and we also don't relax or tighten standards depending on the who the submitter is, unlike what Starla said. The beauty of it is that we don't need you to believe it in order for it to be true. :lol: As long as you have conspiracy theories on how we operate and assume bad faith, we're gonna have this problem.

Ok. Fine. I'll play your game.

Those comments made on IRC came after djp and Bahamut were making abrasive, aggressive comments toward me. When made a comment about someone else saying that "if someone's song gets their song rejected they need to grow," was "the most ignorant thing I'd heard in awhile" Wes was constantly badgering me as to why I didn't think HoboKa's post was the "most ignorant thing I've heard in awhile" and my refusal to acknowledge his post with my reply (seemingly trying to insinuate that I agree that djp had vested interests in VGMix getting hacked). I REALLY didn't want to have that conversation, but I kept getting pushed and pushed.

Eventually djp chimed in with a tone of his own after having heard from Bahamut about some comments I had made in another, private IRC channel, amongst friends, in frustration, that seemed, to me at least, to be pretty over-exaggerated and at the very least out of context.

THAT BEING SAID, yes I was under a lot of pressure from multiple parties. If a bunch people back someone into a corner and start badgering them, they're bound to get an unsavory response. I didn't want to have that conversation. It was frustrating and uncomfortable, I said some things I didn't really mean, and the situation got resolved on IRC. Where it should have stayed, but alas here I am again.

With that, if you go back and read my reply in this thread (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showpost.php?p=552510&postcount=77) you'll see that I didn't say anything that was either insulting or aggressive toward OverClocked ReMix or it's judges. I generally take great care in what I say on the forums about OCR because I know that if I say the slightest thing that could even be possibly conceived as aggressive I'm immediately going to have a 3 paragraph response making it out to be more than it is.

I'm not an english major, I'm a human being, I make mistakes sometimes, and I probably the worst writer in the planet.

I have nothing but love and passion for this community as a whole. That's why I have, on (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18455) so many (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17104) occasions (http://thasauce.net), gone out of my way to do whatever I can to help. In fact I've done (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6723) a great deal (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5648) for (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20433) OverClocked ReMix (http://sgtrama.deviantart.com/art/OCR4-Minimalist-Wallpapers-14281744) specifically (http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs5/i/2004/328/3/b/OMFG_WINAMP_HAS_CONSUMED_ME_by_sgtrama.png).

As I told djp I obviously have some qualms about how OCReMix works these days, but I don't deny that it's Dave's site, and he can run it however he sees fit, and that's perfectly fine. No one really should tell him otherwise. That's why I have my own site why I do things my way.

starla is he own person, with her own opinions, and I can't control what she says or how she feels. However I DID say to her (in private) that her comments weren't helping the situation and that her aggression is being misplaced.

Anything else there is to be said I will talk about with djp directly in private.

[Liontamer]

With that, if you go back and read my reply in this thread (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showpost.php?p=552510&postcount=77) you'll see that I didn't say anything that was either insulting or aggressive toward OverClocked ReMix or it's judges.

It's fair to note though that your post there had nothing to do with what I quoted. Saying YOU know mixes don't have to be made to OCR spec and that they aren't bad wasn't the same as acknowledging that we on the panel are cool with that too and don't put down submitters based on that. You seemed to acknowledge that we knew that earlier in this thread, but then IRC was a complete 180. :-) Regardless, I got my mea culpa, and I'm good. With no sarcasm/holding it over you intended, THANK YOU.

Who knows though, maybe we faked being constructive and supportive to submitters for months in advance in every decision KNOWING we'd get called out for being unsupportive, OCR-standards-or-it's-crap douches. See, we plan ahead. The conspiracy continues... :lol:

[Aninymouse]

when in doubt blame the judges :<

[Nekofrog]

can the judges djp

[po!]

When Js make suggestions for resubmissions, we hope the artist feels they'll improve the song in a way they're personally happy with, that they only take suggestions on that level, and that they pass on whatever doesn't work with their vision for the piece.

the thing is, the suggestions are always with respect to the criteria. it's always "fix X, Y, Z and it will be better and it will be accepted." i don't think i've ever seen a suggestion like "make this simpler and more repetitive, it will be better but it won't be acceptable for OCR."

it's true that the artist doesn't have to listen to the suggestions, but you probably would if your goal is to get something posted. there's constant pushing on the judges forum, workshop forum, and WIP forum towards the OCReMix aesthetic

i'm not saying criteria is bad.. i'm not saying the newer tracks are worse than the old.. i'm not saying i don't like the direction the site is going. i'm not being negative at all, even though some of you are inferring a slightly negative tone from my earlier post. i'm just offering my explanation of why people might think that the music has changed here over time

[Aninymouse]

the thing is, the suggestions are always with respect to the criteria. it's always "fix X, Y, Z and it will be better and it will be accepted." i don't think i've ever seen a suggestion like "make this simpler and more repetitive, it will be better but it won't be acceptable for OCR."

it's true that the artist doesn't have to listen to the suggestions, but you probably would if your goal is to get something posted. there's constant pushing on the judges forum, workshop forum, and WIP forum towards the OCReMix aesthetic

i'm not saying criteria is bad.. i'm not saying the newer tracks are worse than the old.. i'm not saying i don't like the direction the site is going. i'm not being negative at all, even though some of you are inferring a slightly negative tone from my earlier post. i'm just offering my explanation of why people might think that the music has changed here over time

Okay then, my question to you then sir is this: in what way would you have the judges pass judgment/suggestions on to aspiring artists? In other words, if you find fault in the method, how would you improve it? Because if you're not going to offer a solution to your perceived problem then you are simply whining.

Personally, I never have nor ever will make it a point to listen to all the music on this site; I got for especially unique mixes, games I like or own and artists I enjoy. So for instance, if a song is posted by a guy I've never heard of for a game I've never played and it has "orchestral" in the writeup I'm not going to think about downloading it.

With that said, it should be clear that my "perception" of the "trend" in the site's music is very limited, and thus, perhaps I am not the best to judge such things. I will say this, though: there's still a lot of heart and soul to the old mixes, sure, but the real timeless ones - the ones that seem great despite the sub-par samples (for example) - usually all belong to a select few artists of the time, not the majority.

Likewise, the same could be said for the newer mixes, replacing the "samples" with "arrangement," perhaps. Just like in the rest of the music world, everyone is going to prefer certain kinds of music over others for seemingly no reason at all... Between "Death on the Snowfield" and "Wanderer on the Offensive," it's hard for me to say that either is better than the other, since I love them both so much.

In the end, if the music on OCR is changing too much, I think the change is due to many, many factors and not just the judging process. I, personally, do not have an issue with such things, since I place the "burden" on the artist himself/herself. I haven't heard the rejected mixes, but I'd wager they're not overdoing things on their end. Right guys?

If anything, what I have issue with are site projects. I hesitate to point any fingers, but there have been some album projects that have left me with a bad taste in my mouth on the whole (with a few great tracks), and there have been others that blew me away. It saddens me that sometimes they fall into the former category, because the album projects really are a large tribute to the game itself (and likely won't ever be the subject of another project in the foreseeable future). However, I feel that tightening "quality control" on certain projects would have choked them out by halfway, and it would have only been a select few tracks being released instead of an album's worth.

...when in doubt, I'd rather opt for "more music" than "less music," I suppose. The artists with the skill and drive and self-motivation to make something great will shine through regardless.

[Monobrow]

I wish you guys would all lighten up.

[Bahamut]

Ok. Fine. I'll play your game.

Those comments made on IRC came after djp and Bahamut were making abrasive, aggressive comments toward me

Let me get this straight - it's ok for you to make exaggerated comments on one extreme, but then when someone points out that there was a more extreme example of what you were claiming in an earlier post, it's suddenly aggressive? Let me remind you how you opened up

[23:24] <@Ramaniscenc> http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showpost.php?p=552513&postcount=78
[23:24] <@Ramaniscenc> That is the most ignorant thing I have heard in a longggg time

If you're going to make a garbage attack on me, at least accurately reflect how it started. YOU were the aggressive one from the start, and the chatlog verifies this. I could post more of the chatlog if you wish, but I don't want to really clog up this thread which is supposed to be a reflection on the change that has gone on over the years.

[dPaladin]

Some broad statements about internet arguments. May nor may not be applicable but for some reason I find myself picking this thread as the one in which I post them:

The problem with arguing on a public forum, especially if (as you guys are) you're a long-standing, respected member of the community, is that both sides shape their arguments in a way that will make them look the best, and neither side wants to admit to a mistake. It doesn't make much sense to bring a personal conflict to a forum (that is, if you actually want to resolve anything) since the members of the forum will have less information to work with than the people arguing.

The problem with arguing off of the forums is that whoever brings it to the forums first will try to misrepresent the other party, who generally won't tolerate being lied about. There's a unique brand of dishonesty and misdirection associated with internet debate.

Often, big stupid arguments will be started when one party spoke in haste, or when another party gets needlessly offended over some inconsequential slight that doesn't even really concern them. Or both. It's important to remember, in these situations, that you have a finite time to spend living and that it's really not best to get into a pointless PR-driven argument unless you think that's the best possible application of your time.

[Gario]

With that, if you go back and read my reply in this thread (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showpost.php?p=552510&postcount=77) you'll see that I didn't say anything that was either insulting or aggressive toward OverClocked ReMix or it's judges.

lol, wow - I didn't even know you responded to what I said, Rama... this thread grew too quickly for me to notice. I feel obligated to respond to that (even though it was over two weeks ago...).

I was really addressing Hoboka (and a few others I've seen) very specifically in that thread, so alas it came out as 'everyone' in an overgeneralization. Your quite right with what you said to me (hell, I affirm it in other posts in this thread), so... yeah.

the thing is, the suggestions are always with respect to the criteria. it's always "fix X, Y, Z and it will be better and it will be accepted." i don't think i've ever seen a suggestion like "make this simpler and more repetitive, it will be better but it won't be acceptable for OCR."

Umm... yeah (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23667), they (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23664) have (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23665), except they don't say it won't be accepted on OCR ever specifically.

I'd have to say - this thread's brought out a little bit of hostility with everyone (but at the same time it is very interesting to follow). OCR would be boring without these little tidbits of humanity sprinkled here and there, though.

[Liontamer]

I disagree with dPaladin on internet debate, or at least how I'm handling it here; I can't speak for anyone else, and I might not even be referred to. Just noting I'm not trying to just put the best face on OCR and misrepresent anyone. Even going back to the ReMixer exodus way back, some people have flat out hated the formal implementation of standards, and it's cost us the activity of some mixers; I just think we've moved in a more consistent, beneficial direction.

the thing is, the suggestions are always with respect to the criteria. it's always "fix X, Y, Z and it will be better and it will be accepted." i don't think i've ever seen a suggestion like "make this simpler and more repetitive, it will be better but it won't be acceptable for OCR."

it's true that the artist doesn't have to listen to the suggestions, but you probably would if your goal is to get something posted. there's constant pushing on the judges forum, workshop forum, and WIP forum towards the OCReMix aesthetic

i'm not saying criteria is bad.. i'm not saying the newer tracks are worse than the old.. i'm not saying i don't like the direction the site is going. i'm not being negative at all, even though some of you are inferring a slightly negative tone from my earlier post. i'm just offering my explanation of why people might think that the music has changed here over time

No problem, po, I didn't think you were being a hater, I was just saying it's tough to see the standards as something that can encourage creativity if you see any measure of rules as stifling. Dave covered it a lot better than I ever could.

Also, re: the Js criticisms and suggestions, they're mostly going to be geared to the standards, because people are submitting it with the specific intention of OCR posting it. Responding to subs with that POV is simply our job in the process.

[Patrick Burns]

Speaking of evolution, as the submissions have continued to increase (as I assume they are), the queue age is now about 7.5% of the site's age. Will this function continue as the site and submission #s grow?

[Liontamer]

Speaking of evolution, as the submissions have continued to increase (as I assume they are), the queue age is now about 7.5% of the site's age. Will this function continue as the site and submission #s grow?

That all depends on my free time, not the rate of subs. :-)

[Aninymouse]

I wish you guys would all lighten up.

let 'em have their fun

[po!]

Okay then, my question to you then sir is this: in what way would you have the judges pass judgment/suggestions on to aspiring artists? In other words, if you find fault in the method, how would you improve it? Because if you're not going to offer a solution to your perceived problem then you are simply whining.

like i said, i don't think there's a problem here, that's why i'm not offering a solution. i don't think the judging process is bad, i was just trying to explain that i think it's a major factor in "The Evolution of OCR" (http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23709), whether we realize it or not

why does it seem like every post that isn't heads-over-heel praise for the site is taken as an attack? *sigh*... i thought i was pretty clear that i'm not dissing the system. i'm not fond of judging/reviewing music in general, but i know that OCR needs the judging process to be what it is

[Platonist]

Once you set the initial basic rule of "has to be from a video game," you're already doing what po mentioned - restricting the scope. However, if you DON'T set that guideline, you're basically running a glorified file-hosting service,

First this ^
Yes! Oh so hell yes this! ^

I have been experiencing this ^ a lot! We over at reuniverse.org set the scope to "electronic only". Some people see this scope as too wide, yet they sometimes might prefer OC ReMix, which is something i can't understand since VGM is such a much wider scope than electronic music...

well enough about that!

I've been lurking since 2002 (yes I registered in 2006 but I've also been a lazy f*** most of my life...)
and the quality of OCR has NOT changed for the worse or better in my opinion.. the only thing being better software and a wider genre-scope through time... Many of my all time favorites are in the first 1000. and many of em are beyond that.

However, if something has happened lately (2007?2006?->) is that there has been a normalization of the bar. I don't know if anyone ->agrees<- with me but the bar has been lowered just a ->little<- from being a little too high to becoming perfect.
Djp states earlier that he doesn't intend to rise it anymore, and i have to hope he doesn't because as it is now I always know i'll enjoy what i come across around here...
(i really like his plans for the site overall though, sidebars = ew) ^^

Utopia was a great find, can't see how i missed that mix...
thanx and props to the one who posted it and to Harjawaldar of course.

anyway, enough rambling :<

[SoulinEther]

With all the judge input in this thread (alright, mostly Larry's), not to mention djp's activity, at least 2-4 more submitted remixes could have been judged and at least 1-2 remixes posted.

Evolution is hard when you spend less energy producing offspring and more energy bickering. Just saying. :)

[Liontamer]

With all the judge input in this thread (alright, mostly Larry's), not to mention djp's activity, at least 2-4 more submitted remixes could have been judged and at least 1-2 remixes posted.

Evolution is hard when you spend less energy producing offspring and more energy bickering. Just saying. :)

Yes, replying to threads clearly means mixes aren't judged or posted. I'm sure if we just limit our human interaction more, we can pump out those mixes! Not all work is judging/posting mixes, but if you pay me, I can do that. :lol:

[SoulinEther]

Yes, replying to threads clearly means mixes aren't judged or posted. I'm sure if we just limit our human interaction more, we can pump out those mixes! Not all work is judging/posting mixes, but if you pay me, I can do that. :lol:

This is the kind of forward thinking this company needs to get it back on the fast track to success/somewhere! Except the whole paying part will have to be scrapped due to budget woes.

Wait, if we pay you... you'll judge faster? You know, you're giving that Paypal button on the (soon-to-be-axed) sidebar some real competition.

[Aninymouse]

why does it seem like every post that isn't heads-over-heel praise for the site is taken as an attack? *sigh*... i thought i was pretty clear that i'm not dissing the system. i'm not fond of judging/reviewing music in general, but i know that OCR needs the judging process to be what it is

You were clear. I just felt like tossing in my two cents, and I wanted to see if you had anything in mind specifically. That's all. No deeper motive, no accusations.

[Bahamut]

There are a lot of us on here more logic-minded, me more than most people in general - I have to be because I am in mathematics, where strict logic rules. I don't necessarily assume a comment or statement is necessarily an attack. I take a dispassionate view on statements made, assess the reasoning behind them & the implications they have, and then make a comment. Don't take it necessarily as an attack - I'm personally a more direct person than most in trying to figure things out, and I'm more interested in the pursuit of the explicit detail I've found some people to hold against OCR (I'm not necessarily speaking of with hatred) so that if there's something that's really an issue, then the site could try to improve on that front.

I cannot speak necessarily for others though, but I apologize if you got the impression that your comments were viewed as an attack by my reply.

[big giant circles]

I take a dispassionate view on statements made, assess

What a terribly offensive and immature thing to say about the people who have made a statement here. Shame on you for your childish name-calling.

[Gario]

I don't necessarily assume a comment or statement is necessarily an attack. I take a dispassionate view on statements made, assess the reasoning behind them & the implications they have, and then make a comment.

Ah, but no matter what you say it'll always be interpreted differently based on the temperament of those that read it. If you write something in as neutral of a fashion as possible, if someone is really pissed off they'll read it as an attack, or if someone is really happy they'll take it as a compliment.

Thus, your neutrality will be in vain :P.

[DrumUltimA]

What a terribly offensive and immature thing to say about the people who have made a statement here. Shame on you for your childish name-calling.

I know you're already married, but can we get hitched?

[The Instrument of GAWD]

I'm surprised the lot of you's is still here. I can't even remember when I left this place.

btw, how are things?

[Txai]

Hi, IoG. http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/117505/img/space.gif

[The Instrument of GAWD]

Hi, IoG. http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/117505/img/space.gif

Dang, Txai found me! >__< lol Hi Txai.

Anyway, yeah I gotta say this place hasn't really changed (tho I haven't really looked around yet) aside form the layout. Final Fantasy is still getting the shit Remixed out of it and mods are still picky, if not pickyer.

[JadeAuto]

Final Fantasy is still getting the shit Remixed out of it and mods are still picky, if not pickyer.

What an opinionated statement.

Howabout everyone take a day and relax from posting in this thread, and just let the nerves calm.

We all have the gift of choice - we can choose to argue and make fools of ourselves, or we can choose to better ourselves, and others. These options are not exclusive to each other.

Shame we don't have a 2cents emoticon. :tomatoface:

/sacrasm on
Oh, and that's ReMixed, thank you very much.
/sarcasm off

[Battousai]

What are you talking about? There's no antagonism in his tone. If anything it's just a hackneyed expression. As for the judges being picky, that can be interpreted any which way, including as a neutral statement.

His statement regarding the place not having really changed is the most interesting thing related to the thread.

[The Instrument of GAWD]

I mean the place hasn't really changed since the Deletion of Unmod. After learning of the dark drama behind that tho' I couldn't stand the idea of this place anymore, or at least the people running the place.

[Bahamut]

I mean the place hasn't really changed since the Deletion of Unmod. After learning of the dark drama behind that tho' I couldn't stand the idea of this place anymore, or at least the people running the place.

So lemme guess, you heard a version of events that probably was highly inaccurate, and then you make a blanket statement on all of the staff :? .

[The Biznut]

Dammit I gotta go to sleep, only made it 13 pages into this thread...lets see. It started with some upset dude, then he went away for a while about the time djp hacked VGMix, that is, IF he actually exists...an insurrection cause Sixto got NO'd, Doug owes Larry five bucks...or was it a confession?

I dunno. It was a lot to read, some big posts. Then Larry said:

e-penis

and thats where I stopped.

Its best to stop when you get to e-penis. Good Policy.

[The Instrument of GAWD]

So lemme guess, you heard a version of events that probably was highly inaccurate, and then you make a blanket statement on all of the staff :? .

Nope, anything I read about it was pretty much the same thing. As to the whole blanket thing, I can't remember since it's been what 3 or 4 years? I remember I was kind of disgusted with the BIG NAMES in charge. After some of the things I read from those BIG NAMES in IRC it all seemed rather accurate enough for me to form the opinion that they were unsavory judges/mods/popular remixers (Oh wait sorry ReMixers :roll: )/people to deal with.

So, am I in bannable territory yet or what?

[Bahamut]

Nope, anything I read about it was pretty much the same thing. As to the whole blanket thing, I can't remember since it's been what 3 or 4 years? I remember I was kind of disgusted with the BIG NAMES in charge. After some of the things I read from those BIG NAMES in IRC it all seemed rather accurate enough for me to form the opinion that they were unsavory judges/mods/popular remixers (Oh wait sorry ReMixers :roll: )/people to deal with.

So, am I in bannable territory yet or what?

All I see are accusations without merit. Have you neglected some of the crap done to some of the people you're probably referencing first, and without good reason? I wager you have, because otherwise you wouldn't have come to that conclusion. I was just a lurker/noob poster back then, but it didn't take someone really involved to see the vicious bullshit that some people on staff & otherwise had to endure, and oftentimes didn't even provoke.

[The Instrument of GAWD]

Oh, sorry I didn't keep logs. I didn't think I'd be standing before court for all this.

No, I didn't neglect the plight of the BIG NAMES. I was well aware of the Sidebar Wars and found it rather rediculious that posters were getting up in arms over it. So much so that I did this since I was playing MGS3:Subsistance at the time.http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h111/Twardzimus/Thesidebarwar1.png

I was keeping it logical until I heard stories from both sides and both lead me to think lesser of the BIG NAMES. I was neutral about it till then, cause I thought the BIG NAMES were right but I had fun at UnMod too. So with everything that happened, I found myself not having fun and kept finding myself disgusted with certain people then I did the logical thing... I left.

So why is it a big deal that I don't care for OCR and the BIG NAMES?

[OA]

So why is it a big deal that I don't care for OCR and the BIG NAMES?

it's not. get over yourself :<

http://www.cw15.com/media/news/4/0/8/4085910d-0b09-4fdc-a5cb-be11fd204601/Story.jpg

[Bahamut]

So why is it a big deal that I don't care for OCR and the BIG NAMES?

See, but that's not what you said at first - again, if you're going to make an accusation like this

After some of the things I read from those BIG NAMES in IRC it all seemed rather accurate enough for me to form the opinion that they were unsavory judges/mods/popular remixers (Oh wait sorry ReMixers :roll: )/people to deal with.

Then put up or shut up. Unless you're so petty that you get up in arms over one mistake that some of them might've made over the myriad of other mistakes done against them, and in that event, the only thing I can say is I sure hope you don't treat other people like that in daily interactions.

[DarkeSword]

So why is it a big deal that I don't care for OCR and the BIG NAMES?

Not really a big deal that you don't care about the "BIG NAMES" but if you don't care for OCR, why are you here? :tomatoface:

[JadeAuto]

remixers (Oh wait sorry ReMixers :roll: )/people to deal with.

You made me lol. :nicework:

And as for the rest, sorry about misinterpreting your comment. It's so hard to judge emotions and communicate on the intarweb. It strips everything from your statements, and all we're left with are words that always don't convey the meaning we wish them to.

Ok, someone throw a tomato at me, I'm spent. :tomatoface:

[big giant circles]

it's not. get over yourself :<

http://www.cw15.com/media/news/4/0/8/4085910d-0b09-4fdc-a5cb-be11fd204601/Story.jpg

LOL

This is why you are the man, Andrew. :nicework:

[JJT]

wait, unmod got deleted?

[KyleJCrb]

lolz unmod hate

[The Instrument of GAWD]

See, but that's not what you said at first - again, if you're going to make an accusation like this

Then put up or shut up. Unless you're so petty that you get up in arms over one mistake that some of them might've made over the myriad of other mistakes done against them, and in that event, the only thing I can say is I sure hope you don't treat other people like that in daily interactions.
Dude, I didn't make any accusations other than them being picky, you however accused me of falling for the first story I heard about the mods from some disgruntled UnModder. All I said is I didn't like them or this place and that's fact... I didn't point fingers and said they did stuff or call them names like you did to me. I didn't get up in arms, I got disgusted and left. I pretty much did put up with it and then shut up about it because really, it was all silly. Just as silly as you guys circling around me for not praising OCR right now.

I've been saying the same thing from the beginning, I don't think you've been reading my actually posts. I think you need to take your own advice, if you don't like me not liking everything about this place, put up with or keep quiet about it (or as you say, shut up).

it's not. get over yourself :<
http://www.cw15.com/media/news/4/0/8/4085910d-0b09-4fdc-a5cb-be11fd204601/Story.jpg
Um, right... I need to get over myself because others have a problem with my opinion... WAIT, is that what this is all about? Because I haven't been using "IMHO" every time I say I don't like something here?

Not really a big deal that you don't care about the "BIG NAMES" but if you don't care for OCR, why are you here? :tomatoface:
I was looking for someone and now that I got in contact with them I guess I can leave again. Came to this thread to pass time while waiting for a response.

You guys can waste your time arguing back, but I'm not even going to bother coming back to this thread since I got what I needed already. However here's a recap;

-I said this place hasn't really changed after UnMod's deletion.
-I don't care for OCR anymore or the BIG NAMES running it.

You wanna say something go ahead, say how much I suck since I don't agree with you or praise with you, say I'm running away, whatever I don't care anymore (honestly I don't). Baha boy here was in my face and huffing and puffing about me answering him. I don't see this as serious business, but apparently you guys do. So later, I'll try to not let the door hit my ass on the way out.

[The Instrument of GAWD]

OH WAIT!














































2000th post XD

[Meteo Xavier]

I still don't know what the hell anyone is talking about here.

[anosou]

Who are these BIG NAMES? As far as I can tell The Instrument of GAWD is quite the big name compared to, say, djpretzel.

That's 19 letters, 10 more than djpretzel.

[Bleck]

another soundscape is the only good remixer

[anosou]

another soundscape is the only good remixer

Goddamnit Bleck, stop trolling!

[Platonist]

this topic should be renamed to "OCR's official flame war" to avoid any future misunderstandings

[Bahamut]

This thread has run its course unfortunately.

It's too bad there's a few people who can't discuss the site in a rational fashion still, although most have been good about it (even those I disagree with).