Left 4 Dead 2 - now $6.80 on Steam!

[big giant circles]

ah, the fee garbage is what I was worried about. I didn't know you could do that. Sweetness.

[DarkeSword]

I'm good right now. Someone pick me.

[big giant circles]

Aight, so I'll take DS. Need one more and I'll buy.

*EDIT*

Nevermind, I went ahead and bought. Sent DS and my other friend theirs already. First volunteer with the monies gets picked.

[DarkeSword]

I'm good, it's in my games list now.

[EdgeCrusher]

Sweet, got my gift from Baha. Now I just have to wait.

[Powerlord]

Aight, so I'll take DS. Need one more and I'll buy.

*EDIT*

Nevermind, I went ahead and bought. Sent DS and my other friend theirs already. First volunteer with the monies gets picked.

I wasn't originally going to pre-order, but I'd be in for it if you have an open spot.

[The Damned]

http://www.destructoid.com/-scavenge-multiplayer-mode-in-left-4-dead-2-revealed-151332.phtml

Sounds kind of like an idea I had after the first one came out, namely where you had to carry a propane tank to the end of a level, to light a barbecue... for some reason. I think it was a joke mod or something.

Maybe we can get my dream achievement; Gas Can Man. Kill 1000 zombies by meleeing them with a gas can.

Man, now I wonder what the new ones will be like.

[Inimitable]

To be honest the new mode doesn't sound like all that much fun, but that's what I said about Survival too. So I guess I'll just wait for more info or videos.

[The Damned]

Has anyone noticed on Crash Course, that Tanks don't seem to spawn outside of the finale? I've played at least twelve versus matches in the last few days, and I have not seen a tank once. How the fuck are you supposed to get the new achievement for hitting people with a car if you never become the tank?

Maybe they should have applied it to the other maps as well, at least that way, you could have a chance at it.

[big giant circles]

I wasn't originally going to pre-order, but I'd be in for it if you have an open spot.

Cool, if you're good to go, just paypal $33.75 to biggiantcircles (at) gmail.com, and then shoot me a PM of your email or something so I can send you the gift.

[linkspast]

Pick me. tenchar

[Powerlord]

Cool, if you're good to go, just paypal $33.75 to biggiantcircles (at) gmail.com, and then shoot me a PM of your email or something so I can send you the gift.

OK, done.

I wouldn't have done it until morning, but I woke up and decided to use the computer for a bit.

[SirChadlyOC]

Crap, I picked a bad time to be at work.

I'm now waiting for the third L4D2 train to arrive at the OCR station. Maybe I won't fall asleep this time.

[big giant circles]

Powerlord won the race boys, sorry. All my gifts have been sent.

[Powerlord]

Well, look at the bright side... there was only 10 people on the L4D2 list before I stole your copy... er... decided to get it, now there's 11.

That's almost an entire group right there!

[SirChadlyOC]

I just find it funny that I was the one who brought up buying 4 packs for this thing and I still don't have one yet. :<

[EdgeCrusher]

I gotta go to gamestop and cancel my preorder sometime and get my 5 dolla back. I guess I will next week when I pick up uncharted 2 :D

[SirChadlyOC]

I gotta go to gamestop and cancel my preorder sometime and get my 5 dolla back. I guess I will next week when I pick up uncharted 2 :D

Except I'd wait for the in-game baseball bat codes to come in first. Then cancel it as soon as you have that.

[EdgeCrusher]

Are they gonna have codes you have to enter for it? Cause if so I would totally do that. I might just wait on that and the demo access then give that to someone who wants it really bad.

[SirChadlyOC]

Are they gonna have codes you have to enter for it? Cause if so I would totally do that. I might just wait on that and the demo access then give that to someone who wants it really bad.

Hmmm that's a good point, I'm not really sure how the in-game bat will work. It could be a code put in the sealed boxes, it could be a sheet of paper, or it could be programmed into the GameStop discs. The demo access will most likely be a sheet of paper available way before the game comes out, but the bat may be one of those "available at pickup" items which would suck.

[Ashamee]

Wish Ash and I could afford this right now

pre-edit: yeah still logged in as her

[big giant circles]

What do they mean, in-game baseball bat anyway? I thought that was already going to be one of the melee weapons?

[EdgeCrusher]

What do they mean, in-game baseball bat anyway? I thought that was already going to be one of the melee weapons?

http://www.destructoid.com/left-4-dead-2-gets-preorder-baseball-bat-147690.phtml

[big giant circles]

ahh

"How it'll work is, if you're playing with somebody that's pre-ordered it, everybody playing gets it," confirms Left 4 Dead writer Chet Faliszek.

not like this had any impact on my decision or anything, but it basically seems to me like just another version of the "outbreak" achievement. whoopidee doo.

The baseball bat will be available in both the PC and Xbox 360 version of the game. I eagerly await the trendy Valve haters who will find a way to claim this is evil and bad somehow.

lol, true.

*EDIT*

Oh hey, pretty good news for Aussies, it seems Valve has an edited version of L4D specifically for them. I mean, it's a compromise, but hey, better than nothing, right? http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25571

[EdgeCrusher]

I went to the L4D2 forums on steam today. Oh man, the hate this game still gets is amazing. Almost as funny as the free GH Van Halen hate.

[Bahamut]

I went to the L4D2 forums on steam today. Oh man, the hate this game still gets is amazing. Almost as funny as the free GH Van Halen hate.

Haha I don't care much for GH5 (still haven't played it), but I'll be damned if I passed up the free GH Van Halen game.

[EdgeCrusher]

Haha, people are so mad at activision right now cause GH Van Halen came in a cardboard sleeve, with no manual. Apparently that classifies to people now as "false advertising" even though its a promo copy of a full game.

[Bahamut]

Well that is kinda misleading advertising, but whatever, you still have the damn game.

[The Damned]

Wish Ash and I could afford this right now

pre-edit: yeah still logged in as her

If I win the lotto tomorrow, I will gift you a few copies.

To whomever it is that is logged in as Ashamee.

[Tensei]

Just put 50 euros on my paypal account with the specific purpose of buying this game, I'm looking forward to having some epic 4v4 VS battles with all of you fine people again. :)

[Schwaltzvald]

OH HEY AUSSIES NOW WILL GET L4D2. Ban lifted :)!!

http://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,28348,26182654-5014239,00.html

However your copies will be 'gimped' so to speak...

"No wound detail is shown and the implicitly dead bodies and blood splatter disappear as they touch the ground. ... The board notes that the game no longer contains depictions of decapitation, dismemberment, wound detail or piles of dead bodies lying about the environment." The unmodified version of the game may still be approved, pending a review that concludes on October 22nd.

[Garian]

if we have any 4pack captains left i'll be able to make a gift of 35 dollars tomorrow!

[FireSlash]

if we have any 4pack captains left i'll be able to make a gift of 35 dollars tomorrow!
I'd also like to jump in on the 4 pack action.

[linkspast]

If there is enough interest Id captain a group

[SirChadlyOC]

I CALL SPOT NUMBER 4 AND IF SOMEONE STEALS IT I'LL BLAST YOU WITH A PIIPE BOMB IN A FORREST OF PROPANE TANKS

OK thanks. Just tell me who to send my Paypal gift to and for how much.

[linkspast]

Garian SirChadlyOC and fireslash ill do it if you want me too... Or one of you three can, I dont really care how I get the game just that it is the deal price. So If one of you wants to take the money and buy the 4pack that be cool otherwise Ill do it.

[Garian]

we need an address to send money to! :)

[big giant circles]

Hey is the OCR server going to be up for this?

Also, will the infamous jetpack be present? Man, I love that thing. The only thing better than the jetpack is the jetpack and telletubbies!

[linkspast]

My paypal email is krkruse@gmail.com
I wont buy anything till I have all three of your monies...
as soon as I have three payments I will just buy it and gift it.
also send me a PM when you do send it because I dont check my paypal account all too often

Yeah thanks Garian ans SirChadly
There is ONE spaces left..

[Garian]

kevin you've got money!

bgc my server is a normal l4d server, but as soon as they (gameservers) gets l4d2 servers ready, i'll switch it from l4d to l4d2

[Powerlord]

kevin you've got money!

bgc my server is a normal l4d server, but as soon as they (gameservers) gets l4d2 servers ready, i'll switch it from l4d to l4d2

Hey, I've been wondering, is this server associated with any Steam groups?

Our Steam group IDs are:
Older: I don't have edit access to the Group's Profile, so I can't see the group ID either.
Newer: 857806

[Garian]

the server group association has been very unreliable, and for some reason the server hasn't been working since the crash course update anyway. i've been meaning to figure out what the deal is but i cba because i'm more interested in POGEYMANZ :V

[SirChadlyOC]

YOU HAZ MY MONEYZ AS WELL.

K thanks.

[The Damned]

the server group association has been very unreliable, and for some reason the server hasn't been working since the crash course update anyway. i've been meaning to figure out what the deal is but i cba because i'm more interested in POGEYMANZ :V

wha? I don
t even... yu crazy talk now, i not realy undrstain wat yuo saiding.

No, seriously, get that server up and running again, we're going to need it. I like the pokémon games too, but even I play other things occasionally.

Get to it.

[Powerlord]

the server group association has been very unreliable, and for some reason the server hasn't been working since the crash course update anyway. i've been meaning to figure out what the deal is but i cba because i'm more interested in POGEYMANZ :V

Have you made sure Metamod: Source and Sourcemod are up to date (if you have them installed)?

[Garian]

yeah, all that was fine, it seems that one of the .dat files was fucked up and it kept trying to download it as a client update from the server, even though valve did a hard disable on downloading from servers. i'm reinstalling as we speak.

[Powerlord]

yeah, all that was fine, it seems that one of the .dat files was fucked up and it kept trying to download it as a client update from the server, even though valve did a hard disable on downloading from servers. i'm reinstalling as we speak.

Seems like I had that problem on a client machine with TF2 before. I'm not surprised it happens with L4D on the server side.

[linkspast]

so I got one spot for the 4 pack. some one fill it.

[Garian]

it works again. i forgot who all had admin but tbh with this kind of game (particularly with in-house games going on) there really isn't much need, if you want 'em just let me know.

no sourcemod plugins are installed atm, nor any custom campaigns. IIRC bardicknowledge and scytheful have ftp access, maybe BGC but i'm not certain

[FireSlash]

sending monies now linkspast.

[linkspast]

sending monies now linkspast.

sweet. purchasing now. . also i need your emails which your steam account is attached to. .. at least I think I do,

[Garian]

http://steamcommunity.com/id/garianse and my email is garian (at) thasauce (dot) net

[FireSlash]

http://steamcommunity.com/id/FireSlash
fireslash@fireslash.net

[SirChadlyOC]

http://steamcommunity.com/id/SirChadlyOC
chad_garvin(at)hotmail(dot)com

[linkspast]

All right, I got all three sent out, all thats left is zombie killing in a month or so..

[The Damned]

New achievements for Left4Dead 2 have been posted, courtesy of the X-Box 360 Achievements site. While these re for the 360 version, they will almost certainly be identical for the PC version.

http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/left-4-dead-2/achievements/

New weapons mentioned include a "bile bomb", which when you think about the "Robbed Zombie" one (collect 10 vials of Boomer vomit from infected CEDA agents you have killed), I think you use these vials to create a bomb that attracts common infected towards a special infected. Boomer turnabout?

And then there are the ones about using a defibrillator. I haven't heard of that yet... it seems you maybe able to use an item to get a recently killed survivor back to live. I'm thinking this won't be in Versus, though.

[Inimitable]

And then there are the ones about using a defibrillator. I haven't heard of that yet... it seems you maybe able to use an item to get a recently killed survivor back to live. I'm thinking this won't be in Versus, though.
Seems it is:

HEARTWARMER: In a Versus round, leave the saferoom to defibrillate a dead teammate.

Though at this point, who knows how it works.

[big giant circles]

Use a bile bomb on a tank? Reviving dead survivors? Dang man, this has seriously got me pumped again. All the douche bags who are boycotting this game are going to get it anyway and then love it, and they're all gonna feel like morons.

Dang, I'm stoked after reading that list!

[Ashamee]

Ohh, definitely, DO WANT.

(I wanted it anyway, but after reading all this, hoooly shit.)

[big giant circles]

iknowrite???

[Bahamut]

But guys it's releasing a year after the first one came out, we should boycott it!

[The Damned]

No, we should boycott the first one! That will teach Valve to... whatever it is we're boycotting them for!

BOYCOTT!

[Muskweeto]

Quick question,
If I were to buy the game on disc for the pc would I be able to play it online with my steam account?

[EdgeCrusher]

Yes, it has to be played on steam on PC. No way around it unless you hack it.

[Rambo]

Reviving dead survivors?

:nicework:

[big giant circles]

Personally I don't really see the point of buying hard copies of games anymore if you don't have to.

[Muskweeto]

Yes, it has to be played on steam on PC. No way around it unless you hack it.

ok, thanks, that's good to know. I'm not all that familiar with pc online gaming,
but I loved the first Left 4 Dead and a game that intense must be played with a keyboard and mouse.

And steam just gives the pc that xbox live community feel.

edit
@big giant circles

Well, for whatever reason the games I download from steam don't run anywhere near as well as my hard copy versions,
I've even played Left 4 Dead on disk and on steam on this very computer and the steam one just doesn't work well, even in single player.
(http://www.ocremix.org/forums/member.php?u=9717)

[EdgeCrusher]

Personally I don't really see the point of buying hard copies of games anymore if you don't have to.

I bought the orange box and l4d1 hard copy just for the reason that I uninstall and reinstall games constantly, so it stops me from downloading all the time. But since I have 70 games on steam now and 98% of them are download only, I'm more for that.

[Muskweeto]

I bought the orange box and l4d1 hard copy just for the reason that I uninstall and reinstall games constantly, so it stops me from downloading all the time. But since I have 70 games on steam now and 98% of them are download only, I'm more for that.

I edited my post to answer big giant circles but your reason is very good.

[Rambo]

Personally I don't really see the point of buying hard copies of games anymore if you don't have to.

If they cost the same price, I feel as though getting something physical out of it is more rewarding. 40$ in downloadable software just feels like a rip. I know the actual cost price is only marginally more, but ignorance is bliss. Pluuuus you could always pawn it if you choose to.

[linkspast]

I like seeing it on my shelf. Especially long series like the Final Fantasy games. Also box art and manuals. . .

[Powerlord]

I bought the orange box and l4d1 hard copy just for the reason that I uninstall and reinstall games constantly, so it stops me from downloading all the time. But since I have 70 games on steam now and 98% of them are download only, I'm more for that.

You can create backup copies through Steam to burn to disc. You can even backup multiple games at once, but chances are that if they were l4d and any Orange Box game, you'd still need two DVD-Rs, or one dual layer DVD-R.

(DVD-R could be either DVD-R or DVD+R)

[big giant circles]

Not having to deal with the clutter of 70+ boxes is one of the strong reasons I prefer the download system.

I mean, I'm not anti-hard copy or anything. I just personally prefer to have a mobile/modular digital system lately. I'm also cool with "well, I really love this game, and want to have something tangible to look at and read/touch/make out with" ;)

[Muskweeto]

You can create backup copies through Steam to burn to disc. You can even backup multiple games at once, but chances are that if they were l4d and any Orange Box game, you'd still need two DVD-Rs, or one dual layer DVD-R.

(DVD-R could be either DVD-R or DVD+R)

Can you remove the download from your pc and just use the backup disc the same as a physical copy?

[EdgeCrusher]

I never tried the back up system, guess I should. At this point though, since most PC games I own are untradable on goozex.com I just would rather download them on steam anyway.

[The Damned]

Haa haa, the boycott is dead. Mind you, it was pretty much dead on arrival, but whatever.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/L4D2boycott/announcements/detail/91356134662203323

Stupid boycott tries to claim success after being shown how wrong they were. Interesting.

[big giant circles]

Haha, now watch 'em bend over and take it like the whiny strawberries that they all are. Bunch of muppets.

[The Damned]

Once again, we see how boycotts don't work. Just like on-line petitions. God, on-line petitions just... wow, how can anyone believe that they will work is beyond me.

Boycotts, I can see having a slightly better chance of working, because there is technically money involved, but really, has a boycott ever worked?

[Native Jovian]

Every once in a while (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_Bus_Boycott).

Just sayin'.

[The Damned]

New three minute trailer! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_8hJsgZSNA&)

It may just be made from the cinematics played during/between the five campaigns, but damn,it does look kind of nice.

I love the end on the elevator.

[kitty]

I haven't been too excited about L4D2 even when it was announced but that trailer just got me interested.

[atmuh]

I haven't been too excited about L4D2 even when it was announced but that trailer just got me interested.
uh
how

[big giant circles]

hey atmuh shut up numbnuts

[atmuh]

but im not saying anything

[EdgeCrusher]

Just ignore atmuh. He got butthurt over the first l4d.

[kitty]

I've been around long enough to know atmuh is a huge douche/troll/whatever/not important enough to merit a response.

[big giant circles]

I'm aware of this. I thought my lack of punctuation of any kind would have suggested as much :<

back to the video, I really enjoyed it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4).

[Triad Orion]

So. Very. Awesome. Looks very cool. Looking forward to it!

[Nicole Adams]

Okay, I changed my mind. (One of my Steam friends will send me his old GeForce 9800 GTX+ if I buy L4D 2.) Is anyone else up for the four pack? I need two more people. As a reminder, the price is $33.75 each.

[Powerlord]

People who pre-ordered can now preload the L4D2 demo so you have it when it launches on Tuesday.

[Halt]

People who pre-ordered can now preload the L4D2 demo so you have it when it launches on Tuesday.

Its not letting me :(

Edit, just a steam reboot fixed it. nevermind.

[Global-Trance]

Pre-loaded on Steam and ready to go for that demo!

Okay, I changed my mind. (One of my Steam friends will send me his old GeForce 9800 GTX+ if I buy L4D 2.) Is anyone else up for the four pack? I need two more people. As a reminder, the price is $33.75 each.

You don't talk to me anymore. :[

Also I hope you're just getting the 9800 GTX for free or dirt cheap. It's just an 8800 GTX with a die-shrink.

[Species8472]

I'm still looking at going in on a Left 4 Dead 2 4 pack.

[Nicole Adams]

I'm still looking at going in on a Left 4 Dead 2 4 pack.
Cool, we would need one more person then. Is anyone else interested? :puppyeyes:

[EdgeCrusher]

Demo was delayed till 1 am EST. I can't wait to see the rage over this....

[The Damned]

I already have. Personal attacks on Gabe about his weight (classy move, dickasses), people half-sarcastically threatening to boycott the demo, self-appointed experts calling it a bad business move (you already bought the fucking game, so I don't see how), and various other stupid ideas.

So, basically, the same as usual.

[atmuh]

the should just wait until next week when they were going to let everyone play the demo anyways and just say ha ha morons we got you to buy the game

[Bahamut]

It's a demo - why the hell are you going to complain? It's not like the game isn't coming out on the same day it was announced November 17, and it's not like the world is going to end because the demo came out one day late.

People have too much of a sense of entitlement.

[The Damned]

People have too much of a sense of entitlement.
This.

I honestly don't know where this reasoning comes from. Every game I have ever played, enjoyed or otherwise, I never got pissy because of "missing" content, or sequels coming out, or anything. I have to assume that this is some extension of the "instant satisfaction" mentality that people growing up with. I suspect that a lot of the whiners are 25 and under.

Back in my day, if a game was pissing us off, we threw it against a wall.

[big giant circles]

I suspect that a lot of the whiners are 25 and under.

Not necessarily. I think it's a mentality that's pretty much been adopted by all. Perhaps the biggest demographic for L4D is probably kids from 16-25, but the "I deserve everything I want on my own terms with little to nothing in return" attitude is kind of prevalent in most people these days. At least, most Americans I'd say. I'm really not entirely certain how the rest of the comparable world behaves, but I'd wager it's nowhere near as badly as us.

[The Damned]

Well, I might amend that to "Westerners" in general. As a Canadian, I can't say that only Americans are in that group; I've seen lots of people who are from North America and Europe in on the bitching and complaining.

Maybe it's because of the lack of translated articles and sites, but I haven't heard anything from Asian players. Mind you, I have no idea what the demographics are for Asians and Left 4 Dead, let alone gaming in general.

EDIT: Oh, if you restart Steam or right-click and select "view pre-load info" on the demo, it states that there is a new Steam update. I wonder if there was some problem with the current build of Steam and the demo, and this is why there was a delay.

I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

[JadeAuto]

Not necessarily. I think it's a mentality that's pretty much been adopted by all. Perhaps the biggest demographic for L4D is probably kids from 16-25, but the "I deserve everything I want on my own terms with little to nothing in return" attitude is kind of prevalent in most people these days.

It's a sign of the times. Everyone doesn't remember that just a short few years ago, people had this little thing called patience and were able to hold themselves without injury until something was released, or granted properly, or given when it was released. People whining about this are just another facet of the multi-marked sign of the times we live in. A world without patience, without honor.

[Strike911]

Haha. Man, I love reading all the shit storm threads on Steam's forums for L4D2. Haha.

While I don't think the crazy rage that people are having is necessarily appropriate, to be completely fair to those raging over the demo's delay, Valve shouldn't set a deadline, then delay it, then delay it again. I can see how some more immature/impatient people might be frustrated with that. If they would have been a little more conservative to begin with, this could have been avoided. I know Valve wants to get the game out to the people, but had they just said the game will be out conservatively on Oct 30th to begin with, then this whole thing could have been avoided. I think people just don't like feeling like they're getting jerked around. If you say you're gonna do something at a specific time you should do it. Is the delay worth the internet rage going on? Of course not.

Am I a little bummed the demo isn't out when it was supposed to? Sure, I'm a little bummed. Not enough to be angry about it though, I know i'll get to play it in a few hours, so no biggie. It's the same thing that happened last year with L4D1's demo. I know me and my buddies are really looking forward to the demo. We had planned to meet up and play it today, but when it was delayed earlier today, we just met up and played L4D1 instead, and scheduled a meetup the next evening to play the L4D2 demo together.

And anyway, Valve is always great to its community. Last year they extended the demo period for everyone after delays and problems occurred, and with all the extra DLC they offer a simple 24 hour delay is not a big deal at all. God help those people that are raging over a 24 hour delay.

It's seriously ridiculous to see all this rage over a simple 24 hour delay.

People are going nuts on the Steam forums. I like Gabe Newell and I don't like it when people dis him for his weight whenever Valve is in the news, but one guy caused a guilty laugh in me. I think he said something like Gabe Newell must have dropped a hoagie into L4D2's main server. Again, a very guilty lawl there. hehe.

Anyway, the Xbox360 demo is live, and all the posts over at GameFAQS (ewww! GameFAQS msg board!) have a lot of cool info... that said, I'm trying to avoid big reveals in the game so I can experience it for myself with my buddies.

Honestly, I'm really surprised by the majority of posts that like the new survivors as much as (if not more than) the old L4D1 survivors. Apparently, the chatter going on throughout the demo is a big improvement. Glad to see mostly everyone enjoying the new survivors.

Anyway, off to bed I go for class in the morning, and by the afternoon I'll have my hands on a new toy. :D

[EdgeCrusher]

It preloaded the demo again for me, so I'm guessing that they had to rework something on it really quick to get it ready. But seriously, there are threats to sue valve for this on their forum, people bitching they took off work yesterday to play it and want compensation for it, etc. It's beyond ridiculious to expect a game demo that will last 20 minutes tops to be something to rage over this much. I wish we would go back to the old days of pc game demos on disc in game magazines only, that'd show this lazy basement dwellers who's boss :D

[Bahamut]

Valve's job is to hype the game, plain and simple. Consumers need to keep things in perspective though. It's a tug of war, and those raging people over stuff like a delayed demo are the losers.

[big giant circles]

It preloaded the demo again for me, so I'm guessing that they had to rework something on it really quick to get it ready. But seriously, there are threats to sue valve for this on their forum, people bitching they took off work yesterday to play it and want compensation for it, etc. It's beyond ridiculious to expect a game demo that will last 20 minutes tops to be something to rage over this much. I wish we would go back to the old days of pc game demos on disc in game magazines only, that'd show this lazy basement dwellers who's boss :D

People are such morons.

I TOOK OFF WORK SO I COULD PLAY A DEMO OF A GAME THAT'S GOING TO BE FULLY AVAILABLE SOON ANYWAY AND I DEMAND COMPENSATION FOR MISSED TIME AND ALSO BECAUSE I AM A TOOL AND UNHAPPY WITH MY LIFE IN GENERAL AND IF I DON'T GET MY WAY I'M GOING TO BE A GENERAL BLEMISH TO MODERN DECENCY AND INFLUENCE A SURPRISING AMOUNT OF PEOPLE TO DO THE SAME.

I'm not sure how making awesome games suddenly entitled Valve to the absolute worst community of pure shitheads, but it magically happened. If not getting to play a game demo for a few more hours is REALLY the worst of your problems, then shut the hell up and turn on CNN world news or something. Assuming there's even a hair of a shred of sense and human decency in them (I'm sure there's not) they SHOULD see that they really have nothing to complain about. Our society needs some kind of overhaul. I just can't imagine that people acted this way over such trivial things 20+ years ago.

[Hy Bound]

People are such morons.

I TOOK OFF WORK SO I COULD PLAY A DEMO OF A GAME THAT'S GOING TO BE FULLY AVAILABLE SOON ANYWAY AND I DEMAND COMPENSATION FOR MISSED TIME AND ALSO BECAUSE I AM A TOOL AND UNHAPPY WITH MY LIFE IN GENERAL AND IF I DON'T GET MY WAY I'M GOING TO BE A GENERAL BLEMISH TO MODERN DECENCY AND INFLUENCE A SURPRISING AMOUNT OF PEOPLE TO DO THE SAME.

I'm not sure how making awesome games suddenly entitled Valve to the absolute worst community of pure shitheads, but it magically happened. If not getting to play a game demo for a few more hours is REALLY the worst of your problems, then shut the hell up and turn on CNN world news or something. Assuming there's even a hair of a shred of sense and human decency in them (I'm sure there's not) they SHOULD see that they really have nothing to complain about. Our society needs some kind of overhaul. I just can't imagine that people acted this way over such trivial things 20+ years ago.

Fuckin' Amen! :D

[The Damned]

Our society needs some kind of overhaul.
I just happen to have come across the virus that causes zombie-ism. Do you have a place we could meet?

I just can't imagine that people acted this way over such trivial things 20+ years ago.
Well, having been old enough to remember how people acted 20+ years ago (soooooo old, I know), I can say that while there was childish behavior along those lines about just about everything, most of us just took what we got in life. In gaming, it was pretty much just that.

Games were a lot different then; there was no internet, so community interaction was non-existent. Companies almost never heard the consumers reactions to anything about their games. Once a game was out, that was it; you played what you got and if you didn't like it, you traded with someone else you knew for something else or you just kept it.

I honestly think gamers are spoiled these days. Online play, high-def, multiplayer games with 60 or more people, stats and bragging rights... None of this existed two years ago. What little there was was limited and rather primitive by today's standards.

Kids got too many cool toys these days.

[big giant circles]

I just happen to have come across the virus that causes zombie-ism. Do you have a place we could meet?

Well, let me stock up on guns, ammo, and explosives first, and then just hijack a Taco Bell delivery truck or something and let it run it's course.

Well, having been old enough to remember how people acted 20+ years ago (soooooo old, I know), I can say that while there was childish behavior along those lines about just about everything, most of us just took what we got in life. In gaming, it was pretty much just that.

Games were a lot different then; there was no internet, so community interaction was non-existent. Companies almost never heard the consumers reactions to anything about their games. Once a game was out, that was it; you played what you got and if you didn't like it, you traded with someone else you knew for something else or you just kept it.

I honestly think gamers are spoiled these days. Online play, high-def, multiplayer games with 60 or more people, stats and bragging rights... None of this existed two years ago. What little there was was limited and rather primitive by today's standards.

Kids got too many cool toys these days.

True true. I do think that instant, range free global communication (internet mostly) has only thrown gas on the flames. I mean, I'm not saying people didn't pitch tantrums over stupid stuff 20 or more years ago, but I guess back then it was just limited to a person and however far their circle of friends ran. It's pretty common knowledge that people are FAR more likely to complain about something than praise it, so I dunno, I guess the theory is that people may have always been shitheads, but now we've given them the tools to gather together in uncontrollable masses and spread their numbers to not only other shitheads, but those who were sitting on the fence between shitheadedness and non-shitheadedness, as well as the people who are just sheep who go where the masses tell them to go.

It's a sad, sad predicament.

[Nicole Adams]

We're still looking for one more person to do the four pack with. PM me if you're interested!

And yeah, people suck. Carry on...

[atmuh]

i dont know whats funnier people whining about the demo not being out or people whining about people whining about the demo not being out

[The Damned]

Both. That way we get two sources of entertainment while we wait for the demo.

Which, by the way, is not pushed back another hour, and requited another Steam patch and restart.

http://steamcommunity.com/games/L4D2/events/55327883716288366

I have to wonder what's going on with it now. A series of hold-ups, patching the client it runs on... maybe they are having some really bad issues with the servers that are already set up?

[A Random Tiger]

I just hope someone records playing it so I can see what it looks like.

[atmuh]

it looks like left 4 dead

[Strike911]

I just hope someone records playing it so I can see what it looks like.

The Xbox360 demo has been live for over 12 hours. Bound to be some videos of it on Youtube by now. Just saying.

[The Damned]

HAA HAA! It's another hour away now. I just refreshed the page and BOOM! Today at 4 PM.

Fucking hilarious.

[atmuh]

i for one can definitely understand why people are upset
the whole reason people prebought it is so that they can play it one week before everyone else and obviously valve is cutting into that exclusive time now that theyve got people's money which would definitely be enough to make me mad if i was dumb enough to pay for this game just so i can try it a week before people who didnt

[Bahamut]

No, the whole reason people prebought is for the discount, especially with the 4-pack.

[atmuh]

with left 4 dead the discount and 4pack lasted all the way to release
i dont see why they wont do that again

[big giant circles]

i for one can definitely understand why people are upset
the whole reason people prebought it is so that they can play it one week before everyone else and obviously valve is cutting into that exclusive time now that theyve got people's money which would definitely be enough to make me mad if i was dumb enough to pay for this game just so i can try it a week before people who didnt

if the only reason you bought the game was to play it a week before everyone else then you are a dumbass and lol look at me im too cool to use a period and im pretending to make compelling speculation and argument but im not lol

[atmuh]

nice try

[The Damned]

OK, people who have been around long enough, think back:

Has any demo release ever been this problematic, real or imagined? I mean, is this demo's issues as bad as they really are, and how would it compare to other demos releases.

I don't think it's that bad, really. I just think slapping a big "TODAY IN TEN MINUTES!" on their page and then constantly changing it is setting yourself up for some hatemail.

EDIT: And there's some videos (http://www.destructoid.com/g4-goes-apes-it-with-its-left-4-dead-2-coverage-153418.phtml) covering the game from G4TV. I guess this will tide us over until the demo comes out.

[A Random Tiger]

The Xbox360 demo has been live for over 12 hours. Bound to be some videos of it on Youtube by now. Just saying.

Ahhh I was not aware of that.
-goes to search-

[EdgeCrusher]

I prebought it cause it was cheap and got a preorder bat. The demo is just a nice bonus. Fuck anyone that preordered just to play 20 minutes and then complain they got burnt out.

[Strike911]

So I've been playing the PC demo with my buddies. I LOVE IT. So many new toys to shoot and blow up. :)

The game feels new yet retains a very similar feel, and I know me and my friends (all together in the same room, pseudo-LAN style) loved seeing the new gore effects and guitar swinging action. We even let out a few simulutaneous Oohs and Aahs, which was fun.

GUITAR HERE!

So many little things I enjoyed. I'm sure I'll ramble on and on about it later after this fangasm ends. I'm really looking forward to the full version. :)

Also, zombies with body armor on are awesome!

[Bahamut]

K this game is crazy fun - soooo much better than the first!

[big giant circles]

K this game is crazy fun - soooo much better than the first!

ditto. had some crazy fun, looking forward to more!

*edit*

though honestly, we should sue valve, because I was in no way prepared to have that much fun, and I feel that I need to be compensated for the extra endorphins that my brain had to consume.

[The Damned]

Wow. I heard they had tweaked the Special Infected AI, and they weren't lying. We had a few rounds where Smokers where pulling people into the Spitter's acid, Hunters where waiting for the Charger to attack first... I saw the fucking Hunter sitting there, doing nothing, and then BAM! Charger hits, Hunter pounces. Then we had Spitters and Boomers double teaming us.

It's like playing against a moderately good Infected team in Versus.

Also, the Magnum is my new default weapon of choice. Fuck the frying pan, I want a Magnum at all times. AK-47 is nice, but that Magnum... (insert swooning face thing here)

[BardicKnowledge]

Wow. I heard they had tweaked the Special Infected AI, and they weren't lying. We had a few rounds where Smokers where pulling people into the Spitter's acid, Hunters where waiting for the Charger to attack first... I saw the fucking Hunter sitting there, doing nothing, and then BAM! Charger hits, Hunter pounces. Then we had Spitters and Boomers double teaming us.


Our group also noticed a significant improvement to the enemy AI -- Advanced is a challenge now, whereas in L4D1 anything but Expert was a complete joke that we could basically waltz through.

I didn't notice a magnum or super-pistol of any kind. Will look tomorrow :p

Oh, and any of you who are undecided about this, decide to get it fast -- it's going to be a TON better than the original...which was basically multiplayer game of the year last year.

[Bahamut]

The most surprising thing I noticed with the AI is that one time I was standing on top of the stone wall around the circular "maze" part of the demo, and a charger hit me from behind, and then ran away before the team knew what was happening!

Amazing tweaks with the AI!

[JadeAuto]

Also, the Magnum is my new default weapon of choice. Fuck the frying pan, I want a Magnum at all times.
Amazing tweaks with the AI!
This and this. Magnum is amazing. And the AI was totally crushing us. You know how we'd make it through the L4D1 demo on expert repeatedly?

This time, you get taken on hardcore.

[Global-Trance]

Most nasty thing I saw from the AI so far on my side was the Spitter spitting ALL OVER a downed teammate immediately after zombies incapacitated them. That was messed up.

Also in the first game I played, I was playing with Bleck and within one of the start, a Charger came out and charged him and Rochelle (controlled by AI) right off into the water... Charger included. Me and the other guy looked around frantically until *bwoop* saw the dead Charger's body surface from the water. All three of them drowned. I laughed for like a whole 20 minutes.

[big giant circles]

haha, that is awesome. Can't wait to see that happen in versus :)

GT, I do not believe you are on my steam list. This must be remedied. (I should be easy to find) :P

[atmuh]

i think this was suggested a long time ago maybe im not sure but i think there should be an option to put your steam community id on your profile

[Global-Trance]

haha, that is awesome. Can't wait to see that happen in versus :)

GT, I do not believe you are on my steam list. This must be remedied. (I should be easy to find) :P

I just added you. I think. Unless there's another Big Giant Circles

[Triad Orion]

The positive reviews for the demo are good news to me. I haven't pre-ordered it (damn lack of cash) but I've been wanting to know how it handles. Sounds like it's been really good. You've mentioned the AI for the specials is improved, but have the tweaks to the Director proper been noticeable too?

[Garian]

the AI director is just a very very complex RNG. if you dump the cvar list from L4D1, nearly everything feeds the system data or grabs from it in some form or another. That said, there really isn't enough room in the ~1.5 sections to see much improvement, BUT spitters LOVE coming out of the woodwork during a boomer attract mob, so there is evidence that some of the changes are for the better.

I'm surprised that no one mentioned how much more optimized the game is now, by the way. Runs smooth at my desktop resolution (1280x1024) on my lower-end video card, while i had to drop down to 1024x768 for the same frames on l4d1... which only really continues to enforce my idea that l4d1 was basically the l4d2 beta.

[EdgeCrusher]

I only got to play for 10 minutes last night but god damn what a great 10 minutes. I spent about 5 of it just running around frying panning zombies then dismembering them with the chrome shotgun. But yes the special infected AI is awesome, and I love the additions they made with zombie body armor and such. That damn Jockey is a bitch.

[BardicKnowledge]

The body-armored cop zombie is a real pain to take down -- much worse than I thought he'd be at first...especially if you're the only one around at the time.

[ParanoidDrone]

The demo was fantastic and my friends and I had a blast with it. Going back to L4D afterward, it seemed so...bland.

Interestingly enough, both times we played through, we found a Hunter inside the final safe room. Once, he was paired with a Spitter.

[The Damned]

Anyone else find the motions in the demo kind of... off?

I mean, shooting seemed weird. It felt like the recoil was sort of... soft? Like, it seemed to float a bit more.

Walking felt slightly odd, almost unresponsive compared to L4D1. It was like I had my mouse sensitivity down, but when I checked, it was the same as what I was using for L4D1. In fact, all my system settings for L4D1 were automatically carried over to the demo. Res, AA, everything.

I have to find some settings that will emulate the feeling of motion in the first game. It's very weird going from the first to the demo, and I really think it fucked me up a lot like night while playing.

[big giant circles]

Also, the weapons are random at start as well instead of just shotgun and SMG. And sometimes there's melee weapons as well. Plus the infinite horde events is a lot of fun (really hard though!) We had some problems with that just because we didn't know exactly what we were supposed to do once we got to the end of it. We pushed the button, but the zombies still keep coming for a couple minutes, and we had no idea what to do.

Also, all the added things like the defib, the adrenalyne, the boomer bile, all that stuff is awesome too. Supposedly the AI director will also change the weather as well as randomly generate certain areas of the game as well I've read. Didn't really get to see any of that in the demo, but I'm looking forward to it.

Also, the walking witch is pretty tough to avoid sometimes.

[Triad Orion]

Interesting. I take it Realism mode isn't active for the Demo, then?

[BardicKnowledge]

Nope, no realism mode for demo. :(

[big giant circles]

I'm trying to think of things that they are inevitably going to have to change/address once the masses start whining, or people find ways to take advantage or certain exploits/glitches. Let's start a list of predictions.

Let's start with wagering which new things are likely to get nerfed come the first update.

Weapons: My guess is the AK47 just because it's probably my favorite weapon so far.

Special Infected: hard to say, but I'm guessing it'll be the charger, just because I think that's the one that's going to be the most effective at really screwing up a team in vs.

Anyone else want to share your theories?

[BardicKnowledge]

People will RAGE when they try closet camping and get a spitter. There's no campy spot in the demo...but the rage will happen.

Charger will probably be the first one nerfed though, as he has quite a bit of HP currently -- what advantage does a hunter have over a charger currently, if any?

Sniper rifle is still very underwhelming, but I've only gotten the "old" one, not any of the new scoped guns, so I'll reserve judgment...for now.

Finally, the sword / machete seems much MUCH better than all of the other melee weapons, and they need to be balanced out.

[JadeAuto]

Sword/Machette is good because it's thin and it's damage path is narrow and... sharp. Guitar/frying pan, while fun the first few times, just lacks... staying power.

The Magnum is fairly balanced, for only having single-wield and 8 shots. The alternate shotguns are just like auto-shotty from L4D1.

If anything at all, personally I think valve will modifiy the spitter - she's too quiet. She can seriously hit you hard before you even know she's there. Much more stealthy than any of the other infected - you can hear the jockey from a mile away.

[The Damned]

Type this into the console after activating cheats:

give weapon_grenade_launcher

It gives you the grenade launcher, but it has super-secret ammo: WORDS!

They didn't include the texture orthe round in the demo so it shoots the word "ERROR" in bright pinkish purple. Much more fun than any old bullet.

[Strike911]

Sniper rifle is still very underwhelming, but I've only gotten the "old" one, not any of the new scoped guns, so I'll reserve judgment...for now.

Wait until you get the military sniper rifle that hold 30 rounds before you have to reload. That thing is wicked.

Also, I enjoyed the demo but just now I have a new found respect for the game. I shot a zombie that was in a full sprint in the stomach and its intestines spilled out and strung along behind it as it died. Coolest/Most hilarious thing I've seen in a while.

Oh, also if you type "upgrade_add" in the console and then one of the three options it gives you after, you can add laser sights to your guns, incendiary ammo, or explosive ammo. Interesting how it works. The Laser Sight really sharpens your accuracy and just looks plain cool.

[BardicKnowledge]

Oh, also if you type "upgrade_add" in the console and then one of the three options it gives you after, you can add laser sights to your guns, incendiary ammo, or explosive ammo. Interesting how it works. The Laser Sight really sharpens your accuracy and just looks plain cool.

Damn, looks like there are all sorts of cool tricks waiting for us in a few weeks!

[big giant circles]

What's funny is that a lot of L4D1 servers had already modded those things, and they were super awesome and fun. It's nice to see Valve officially implemented them.

The only thing I wish Valve would do is make an official 8v8 versus game. Oh sweet balls, that would be awesome in L4D2.

[BardicKnowledge]

What's funny is that a lot of L4D1 servers had already modded those things, and they were super awesome and fun. It's nice to see Valve officially implemented them.

The only thing I wish Valve would do is make an official 8v8 versus game. Oh sweet balls, that would be awesome in L4D2.

8v8 would be sick. Gotta have that :p

[The Damned]

8v8 would be sick. Gotta have that :p

Well, they already have eight characters from both games, and people would love to have the old crew around. Nick could hit on Zoey, Francis and Coach could stare each other down (one being a rebel and the other an authority type), Louis could hang out with some other black people, and Bill and Ellis could compare boring stories with each other.

Rochelle? No one gives a fuck about Rochelle.

[Strike911]

Yeah, honestly, as soon as I started playing L4D2, I enjoyed the new cast, but I started thinking, and then I realized I really missed the old characters.

I don't know what happened to Bill's voice actor though. There are rumors the guy died, but I can't find any official source anywhere. Anyway, not a big deal to get a new actor if that's the case.

The more I play L4D2's demo, the more I want to see the old survivors interact with the new survivors. I miss Francis saying all the things he hates. *tear in eye*

[big giant circles]

so far, this is true. Granted, we've only seen the first 2 levels of one campaign, so maybe there will be some redeeming dialogue. But thus far, the new characters lack the charm and endearing qualities of the original 4.

I mean, the redneck kid is kind of funny, and I have an affinity for Nick because he's kind of the suave badass type, but they just seem more generic in general than the others.

I thought I remember reading somewhere a while back that the paths of old and new survivors might cross at some point in the future. That would be STELLAR.

Also, another thing I've noticed about the new AI director is it does a MUCH better job of making sure there's always zombies. Like, before, if you threw a pipe to clear our a room, or just got done fighting an event, it wouldn't respawn idle horde nearby. In this, you'll finish fighting off a horde, walk around a hedge or corner, and there's still like 20 zombies standing there.

Also I got to play with the magnum tonight. Me likey much very sweet it super is.

[Native Jovian]

So I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to L4D2 because I'm one of those assholes who was annoyed by the fact that L4D1 didn't get nearly as much support as, say, TF2. Yeah yeah I know, I'm a terrible person and I should go suck a shotgun for demanding that Valve give me free stuff that I don't deserve because I hate America. Whatever.

Anyway: I heard somewhere that it may be possible to play L4D1 content on the new improved L4D2 engine. Is there anything to that? I haven't been able to find anything online that confirms or denies. The closest I've found was this article (http://pc.ign.com/articles/988/988161p2.html) which just said they're "discussing" it and "thinking" about it (second to last paragraph). I'd been operating under the assumption that L4D1 and L4D2 content would be completely separate, but if you can actually still do all the L4D1 stuff with L4D2, that's something else. Doubly so if you can do the L4D1 campaigns in L4D2's engine. I have the 360 version of L4D1 (spare me the console hate, please -- I didn't have a computer capable of running it when I bought the 360 version) -- if I can get L4D1 and L4D2 stuff for the price of just L4D2, then I'd probably pick it up for PC.

Anyone know anything about it?

[BardicKnowledge]

NJ, nothing is confirmed on it yet. My guess is that if you can "acquire" the map files, then you will eventually be able to play L4D1's maps in L4D2. Someone will make it so once the SDK gets released even if Valve doesn't...

[Bahamut]

There is a L4D & L4D2 bundle for $65 on Steam.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

so far, this is true. Granted, we've only seen the first 2 levels of one campaign, so maybe there will be some redeeming dialogue. But thus far, the new characters lack the charm and endearing qualities of the original 4.

I mean, the redneck kid is kind of funny, and I have an affinity for Nick because he's kind of the suave badass type, but they just seem more generic in general than the others.

I thought I remember reading somewhere a while back that the paths of old and new survivors might cross at some point in the future. That would be STELLAR.


Maybe they could give "The New Class" some lessons on personality.

[big giant circles]

Eh, I wouldn't say personality, I'd just say quirkiness.

[Triad Orion]

Anyone know anything about it?

I remember reading that custom made maps for L4D would be compatible with L4D2. It probably wouldn't be much of a stretch to convert the current five campaigns into L4D2. I wouldn't be surprised if Valve actually did that at some point. ...Oh god, imagine the No Mercy Sewers with Spitters involved.

And honestly, if Valve doesn't do it, someone will. That's how I see it.

[SirChadlyOC]

I have enjoyed fighting zombies in the daylight. That is all.

[A Random Tiger]

I have enjoyed fighting zombies in the daylight. That is all.

Wow, I didn't even think of that.
It is pretty different to be fighting during the day.

[Species8472]

Demo open to all now.

[Powerlord]

If you preordered L4D2 and have TF2, you'll receive Bill's hat from L4D when you first die in TF2.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

So... Is it now the "in" thing to not have mics when playing Left 4 Dead on the 360 now?

[EdgeCrusher]

I'm sorry, but "in" thing and L4D on a 360 in the same sentence does not compute.

[Triad Orion]

So, I got a chance to play the demo last night for the first time, and I walked away very impressed. It's a clear improvement over the original in damn near every way. The new specials are devious little bastards, and the Spitter is nothing short of nightmare fuel if you're caught unaware. I like the riot cop Infected too. The new designs on some of them look cool too. I like the Hunters with their hoodies and no sleeves. That made me laugh.

[EdgeCrusher]

Damn spitter showered me when I was standing on a narrow ledge that had to be jumped down to to get to it. Of course it incapped me, and the bots couldn't save me. Damn it Rochelle :(

[Native Jovian]

I played the demo this afternoon. I can't say I was really impressed with any of the new content.

The new weapons all play the same. There's no real difference between any of them except looks. They just gave the L4D weapons multiple skins, really. The melee weapons were novel, but again, all play the same. There's very little difference between using a nightstick and using a frying pan (well, the pan does make a very nice CLONK when you hit a zombie with it), and given that you can still melee with your guns, very little reason to give up your pistol for one. The bile bomb was fun, but essentially combines the best of both the pipe bomb (it draws zombies away) and the molotov (it deals damage over time in a specific area).

The new infected seemed to be rehashes to. I'm actually hard-pressed to describe the difference between the hunter and the charger (one jumps at you and pins you, the other runs at you and pins you?), though apparently the charger is designed to break up corner camping and the like, so I guess it you can't just melee it away? The spitter and the boomer are likewise very similar -- one spits stuff at you that causes damage, the other spits stuff at you that summons zombies that causes damage. The jockey was at least genuinely new, but it was annoying as hell because given that it's a) small, b) on top of a survivor, and c) moving around, it's damn near impossible to free someone from it without shooting them in the process.

It may have just been tweaked for the demo, but everything seemed much more fast-paced than L4D, too, which isn't really a good thing. There were always infected around, which meant that you never got any of the rising tension that L4D was good at -- nor did you ever really get the chance to deal with specials by themselves, there were always regular infected mixed in like speed bumps. I found myself having to melee through them constantly while going after specials or just trying to catch up to the other survivors.

The core game was still fun, but the only thing that's really new is the characters and campaigns, which I'm not going to shell out full price of a new game for.

[Nicole Adams]

I wasn't all that impressed with the demo either. I'm somewhat disappointed actually.

Native Jovian makes a lot of good points and I'd like to emphasize some of what he talked about.

After first hearing about the melee weapons, I felt they were primarily added for the novelty factor. Yeah, you can use them to avoid shooting cars with alarms and wandering witches, but other than that they don't seem all that beneficial, even with one-hit kills. They're definitely not worth getting rid of two pistols for. One more note: When using the melee weapons, there is little to no resistance when hitting zombies, unlike in the first game. (Yeah, melee in the first game is way too powerful, but at least it feels more realistic.)

Let me quote Native Jovian since I feel exactly the same as him about the gameplay:

It may have just been tweaked for the demo, but everything seemed much more fast-paced than L4D, too, which isn't really a good thing. There were always infected around, which meant that you never got any of the rising tension that L4D was good at -- nor did you ever really get the chance to deal with specials by themselves, there were always regular infected mixed in like speed bumps. I found myself having to melee through them constantly while going after specials or just trying to catch up to the other survivors.
Even the tanks don't seem as epic as they do in the first game. Everything feels so mish-mashed together with no individuality, despite the new special infected.

The controls feel too fluid. Movement is way too light and airy. While I enjoyed it during my first play-through, I now believe it takes away from the realism.

The guns feel like toys, especially the pistols, and some of the weapons are HUGE.

The overall look is very cartoon-like and smooth with no grit.

All of these points are what separated me from feeling like I was in the game. The first game felt more like it could be a real-world experience whereas the second feels way too stylized to draw the player in. I understand there was a lot of hype to live up to, but I believe Valve didn't go in the right direction by changing so much of the feeling that made the first game so great. Yeah, this is only the demo, but my complaints aren't about the maps, just the overall feeling of the game.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

It sounds like you guys are just trying to rationalize your way out of seeming foolish for not wanting to buy L4D2. If you don't wanna put down the 60 bucks for it, don't. Nobody here is gonna call you a jerk for it. Don't however come up with bullshit. Take it from me, I was a big naysayer on the game 'til I actually got to play this demo(which is excellent).

[Vivi22]

The new weapons all play the same. There's no real difference between any of them except looks. They just gave the L4D weapons multiple skins, really.

I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, but you made some arguments that I actually had at first and figured I would add my thoughts too. To start with the weapons, I actually thought the same thing at first, but after several playthroughs I've realized I was wrong and they don't all play the same. In fact, each assault rifle feels different than the others. The AK for example is incredibly inaccurate, but seemed more powerful than the others. When I had a large number of zombies running straight at me in a group I probably mowed down a dozen of them in half a clip before they got to me, but it would be terrible for shooting a jockey off of someone. The green assault rifle also seems weaker, has a bit of a burst fire, but is a lot more accurate. I only saw the M4 once so I can't really say much about it, but I'd assume it differentiates itself as well. Each weapon is more than just a different skin for the most part.

The melee weapons were novel, but again, all play the same. There's very little difference between using a nightstick and using a frying pan (well, the pan does make a very nice CLONK when you hit a zombie with it), and given that you can still melee with your guns, very little reason to give up your pistol for one.

No argument from me that the melee weapons seem to all play the same. Maybe I'm wrong because I just don't use many of them except the machete, but still, with the one hit kills I've actually found it easier to fend off a horde that's right in my face than pistols, even with the pistol melee because I only need to hit them once and can stop worrying about them with a machete. I still have to shoot them after the pistol melee and with the cool down on that after you use it several times it could mean I'm being attacked from all sides with little recourse beyond trying to shoot them all to death. The downside to the melee weapons is of course giving up a pretty accurate ranged attack with unlimited ammo, and having to actually let the horde get to you to be effective. Both have their strengths and weaknesses and are balanced quite well if you ask me.

The bile bomb was fun, but essentially combines the best of both the pipe bomb (it draws zombies away) and the molotov (it deals damage over time in a specific area).

I disagree that it's just a mish mash of the other two Being able to use the horde to your advantage can be great when you're facing a tank. A molotov won't slow him down, and he totally ignores pipe bombs, but it's hard to ignore a horde of zombies attacking him. It buys you time to get to a safe distance, and takes care of the horde and some of the tanks health. I'm sure others will find similar good uses for it over time.

The new infected seemed to be rehashes to. I'm actually hard-pressed to describe the difference between the hunter and the charger (one jumps at you and pins you, the other runs at you and pins you?), though apparently the charger is designed to break up corner camping and the like, so I guess it you can't just melee it away?

I've also found that the charger can't take a lot of punishment, but he's fast and when he actually hits you he sends everyone else flying forcing them to take a bit to recover then grabs one person and does damage a lot faster than the Hunter. On the other hand, the Hunter pretty much relies on taking you by surprise, is harder to kill (if only because he can jump around so freely), but he doesn't do as much damage to the player when they're pinned. They both behave very differently, and have different damage potentials requiring that you handle them very differently.

The spitter and the boomer are likewise very similar -- one spits stuff at you that causes damage, the other spits stuff at you that summons zombies that causes damage.

The Spitter has much longer range though. In fact, it's really the only thing that can attack you at a distance except the Smoker (or the Tank if it throws something at you), and even then, it's attack is a lot different from the smokers. It could easily trap a team by blocking an exit with spit, or really mess up someone trapped by a charger or a smoker. The concept of spitting something at you may not be new, but you don't react to a Spitter the same way you would a Boomer.

The jockey was at least genuinely new, but it was annoying as hell because given that it's a) small, b) on top of a survivor, and c) moving around, it's damn near impossible to free someone from it without shooting them in the process.

I haven't found it that difficult. If all I had was a shotgun and a frying pan maybe, but they clearly highlight both character so you can differentiate them at a distance. Pull out a pistol and aim high, or melee if you're close enough.

It may have just been tweaked for the demo, but everything seemed much more fast-paced than L4D, too, which isn't really a good thing. There were always infected around, which meant that you never got any of the rising tension that L4D was good at -- nor did you ever really get the chance to deal with specials by themselves, there were always regular infected mixed in like speed bumps. I found myself having to melee through them constantly while going after specials or just trying to catch up to the other survivors.

I'm not really going to say anything except that I'm betting it was tweaked for the demo. I mean it is incredibly short meaning if they didn't throw enemies at you almost constantly it would be a pretty uneventful demo at times. To be fair though, I have gone through several times and found areas where there were only one or two infected, usually right before the horde came running after us. This is one of those things where you have to remember it is just a demo and things will probably play differently in the final game. Valve pretty much consider giving breaks and building tension a science if you ever listened to their developer commentary on other games.

That said, I do have some problems with what I've seen. I'm not a fan of the character models for the most part. It's not that there's anything wrong with them, but you could pretty much look at the characters in L4D and know all you needed to know about them, plus they were pretty varied and unique. In this one we have three people wearing regular old street clothes. I'm sure I'll like the characters as I get to listen to all the banter in the final game, but visually they're not that interesting and it can even be tough to distinguish some of them from the zombies at times.

I also wasn't overly taken with the level design in the demo. I won't condemn it until I see all of the levels in the final game. It wasn't like it was terrible or anything, but I felt the original game did a better job of focusing the player on where they need to go next, even if it was your first time through. My first time through in this I actually managed to get lost for a minute or two.

If you don't wanna put down the 60 bucks for it, don't.

I'm going to hope you just don't have a great computer and couldn't buy it on anything but the 360 because there is no other acceptable excuse for getting a Valve game on a console. Especially when I only paid $45 for the PC version on Steam. :p

[EdgeCrusher]

I already went over Jovian's problems in the IRC channel last night. It seems he just wants to nitpick at the game and is biased right off the bat. The melee weapons are not all the same, and neither are the guns. The guitar makes for a great crowd killing weapon since you can take out multiple targets with it. The pan works great on the SWAT zombies, and the machete is just brutal for hordes. All the guns have different accuracies and power, making them more situational weapons, etc.

Also, totally agreeing with vivi on the console version. Save the 60 bucks you'd pay for L4D2, buy some more ram or save a little more and get a good video card. There is no reason to be playing this on the 360. Plus, 4 pack much? 33.75 made this a great full game at expansion price. I don't see how people can bitch about that.

[Vivi22]

Also, totally agreeing with vivi on the console version. Save the 60 bucks you'd pay for L4D2, buy some more ram or save a little more and get a good video card. There is no reason to be playing this on the 360. Plus, 4 pack much? 33.75 made this a great full game at expansion price. I don't see how people can bitch about that.

Yeah, I wish I had been able to get in on the 4 pack earlier, but I wasn't sure I'd even have the money until this past weekend so I just went and spent the $10 extra rather than spend forever trying to find anyone who wanted to go in on it with me (I don't have any friends here who are getting it so I would have had to scour the internet).

And like I said about the melee weapons not seeming different to me, I hadn't used many of them. I figured I was probably mistaken since they differentiated every other weapon in the game. I'll be sure to try them all some more as I play through the demo a few more times.

I just remembered something though and I'm wondering if I'm the only one bothered by it; does anyone else not like the pistols firing sound? It sounds a little harsh to me and starts grating my nerves after a while.

EDIT: It also just occurred to me that we still have more weapons to see in the game since we know there are chainsaws, and the in game tips make mention of a grenade launcher and different types of ammo. So there's a lot more depth to the weapons we haven't even discovered yet.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I'm on a laptop, so the most I can do right now before I buy a new one(in the undetermined future) is upgrade the RAM to 2 gigs instead of just one. I'm running an old Core Duo 1.6 ghz with a mobility X1400 with 256 ram right now. I THINK I could run the first, but not sure about L4D2, I'd friggin' love to make the switch to the PC though since I've always preferred it for FPS games and user mods. Just can't make the big jump right now.

[big giant circles]

I already went over Jovian's problems in the IRC channel last night. It seems he just wants to nitpick at the game and is biased right off the bat.

Since when has anyone ever known NJ to NOT complain about something when he had the ability? :?

I disagree with virtually everything that he said. How is a charger different than a hunter? Spitter/boomer? Weapons feel the same? I almost feel like he's just trolling for lulz with statements like those. As M-L said, that's fine if you don't want to shell out full price for the game, but sounds more like you're just determined to find SOMETHING wrong with the game. Your gripes make no sense to me.

-Boomer blinds survivors and attracts the horde, usually leads to corner stacking.

-Spitter does range damage and specifically breaks up corner damage. Also can spit on downed survivors making them more difficult to pick up until the acid has gone. Acid can be used to obstruct exits/bottlenecks.

-Hunter pounces and pins a survivor. Easy target after that.

-Chargers can send you flying away from your group and then run away, leaving you open to be picked off by another infected, or fend for yourself while the rest of your group has to fight to come give you aide. I've seen the AI charger do this dozens of times already.

-the witch now WALKS AROUND so sometimes you can't just go around her like you could in the first game.

-Bile bomb does not deal any damage over time by itself. Sometimes, it's a good tool to simply draw the infected away from you. It lasts longer than the pipe bomb, so it'd good for places like the maze where you have to run to shut off the alarm. Also, if you don't pick off the infected while they're attacking the bile mist, they are going to come back at you with a vengeance once it's worn off. I also watched a horde obstruct and kill a tank on expert, so it's definitely not the same as a molotov/pipe bomb.

-The adrenaline is also completely new. Makes you run faster than you do at full health, makes you revive downed survivors twice as fast.

-The tier 1 weapons are pretty much the same, but the tier 2 are COMPLETELY different. Did you even USE the tier 2 weapons? The new sniper rifle? The combat rifle? The AK47? Also, we didn't even get to see the GL or the chainsaw in the demo.

-Did you even try the magnum? It does the damage of a shotgun with the range and accuracy of a pistol. Melee weapons aren't good if you just run into a crowd of zombies, but they're pretty awesome if you're in a corner or closet or guarding one side of a doorway.

I suppose the only thing I can remotely understand is the thing about common infected being everywhere. But heck, that makes it more challenging. The whole point of the game is that the human race has been reduced to zombies. Not, "survivors vs. one special infected every 20-30 seconds". And I'm sure the other campaigns will be more tense. This level was during daylight. Things always feel more tense when it's dark, and we haven't even seen the finales yet.

By all means, don't feel obligated to shell out $50-60 for it. But then again, I got it for $34, and I consider that VERY reasonable. Also, I'm sure in a few months Steam will have it's old faithful 1/2 off weekend and you can buy it then. You're free to not like the game as much as you want but gravy your complaints are inaccurate.

Here's a list of my own complaints/longings that are based on the first game. I liked the old characters better. I think the music was better - that's a big reason it seemed so tense. Now it's just a bunch of obnoxious, uh, creole(?) noise and while it does feel frantic, it doesn't really feel scary.

[EdgeCrusher]

I personally love that there are common infected everywhere, even after events. I hated that about the first. You could do an event by triggering it, then running past the mob and not having to fight anything the rest of the level, if you could run fast enough. I want there to be a little bit of a challenge at least.

And yeah, there will be steam sales on this, probably not this year, but next year for sure. Possibly a good one at christmas, since valve is good about that. Or theres always g2play ;)

[Vivi22]

and we haven't even seen the finales yet.

Speaking of finales, can I just say that I like the change to the formula they made with the tower and the maze. Every single event like that in the first game pretty much consisted of let's hunker down, set off whatever loud thing we're supposed to set off and wait for the two waves to finish before moving on. I thought forcing you to run through the horde to stop the noise calling them was pretty brilliant, and a nice change on a somewhat tired formula. I can't wait to see what other new scenarios pop up in the full game.

[Nicole Adams]

Yeah, I know I was nit-picking for the most part, but every little thing combined really affects the overall experience for me. I had an open mind when I was ready to play the demo so don't think I'm here to just troll. I guess all that is accepted in this thread are mostly favorable comments, though.

I'm still going to buy the game. It's fun as hell, but it feels totally separate from the first L4D.

[big giant circles]

(Re: EdgeCrusher) Exactly. What people who've played the first game a LOT have noticed, is that Valve has addressed pretty much every possible exploit in the first game and addressed them.

-Cornerstacking/closet-camping. The smoker was pretty much the only hope of breaking this up, and it wasn't much hope at all 99% of the time. Now, you've got the spitter which FORCES them out of the closet/corner they're in.

-Tight groups. These were pretty hard to deal with in the first game. Now we've got the charger which can split them up like billiard balls and the jockey who can literally direct one away from the group or into a hazard (fire, acid, ledge, around the corner from the other survivors.)

-Zombies everywhere. I HATED the fact that rushing became a viable tactic in the first game. And the fact that the AI director wasn't smart enough to spawn zombies outside a certain area on triggered events was just silly. That was quite obviously an oversight that Valve did NOT intend. Now, there's plenty of horde to keep people from triggering an event and then just rushing their way through a short level untouched because the AI director is spawning zombies behind them.

-Uncommon infected. It's a nice touch to have common horde who can prove just as annoying/challenging as the special. Ever had a riot cop curb-stomping you while you're down and your buddies can't make it to you to revive you? Man, that's a bitch right there.

-Melee being unbalanced. Originally, the melee in the first game was a force to be reckoned with. Obviously they toned this down once people figure out the weapon-switch exploit (which I miss, haha) and then they went further when a single zombie would stop you dead in your tracks. Not to mention that common infected would take 5-6 blows to die. Now one hit, one (or several!) kills. Seems fair.

-Inventory choices. You now have to make a decision on what you're going to carry to have better personal odds, as well as what will be more beneficial to your group. Instead of just pistols and auto-shotties, now you have to decide if it's wiser to carry dual pistols, a magnum, or a melee weapon. Is a molotov going to be more useful than a bile-bomb? Should you keep your medkit, or trade it in for the defib? Pills last longer, but maybe being fast is more important than having more health.

-Finales/triggered events. I suppose this ties into the "infected everywhere" thing. As Vivi just commented on, it seems pretty weak that people figured out they could just trigger the event and then just wait it out for a few minutes in a corner and then not have to worry about zombies for most of the rest of the level. That is especially no fun in versus.

Anyway, addressing one final thing I forgot about, it brings me back to a point I made a long time ago.

The core game was still fun, but the only thing that's really new is the characters and campaigns, which I'm not going to shell out full price of a new game for.

And that is that I don't seem to recall anybody complaining about say, Halo 2, Metroid Prime, or any other number of sequel games being a full-priced when they were released and added essentially only these things as well.

*EDIT*

Yeah, I know I was nit-picking for the most part, but every little thing combined really affects the overall experience for me. I had an open mind when I was ready to play the demo so don't think I'm here to just troll. I guess all that is accepted in this thread are mostly favorable comments, though.

I'm still going to buy the game. It's fun as hell, but it feels totally separate from the first L4D.

No no no, we know you're not trolling. And as it's been said, it's fine to not like the game (or any number of aspects about it) or even complain about the price. I think what we were all rallying about was that NJ's comments are just so far off-base about a number of things.

[Vivi22]

No no no, we know you're not trolling. And as it's been said, it's fine to not like the game (or any number of aspects about it) or even complain about the price. I think what we were all rallying about was that NJ's comments are just so far off-base about a number of things.

Agreed. I had no problem with most of Nicole's comments because they were simply about how the game felt to her and whether she liked it. You can say the controls feel too fluid or the guns feel like toys and I'm not going to argue with you since it's how you feel about them and that's totally subjective. Like BGC said though, we just had problems with some of the comments by NJ because they were totally off base. You can't say things like all of the weapons handle the same or the new infected are just slightly different variations of the old when neither is true.

[Nicole Adams]

Thanks for the clarification. I know I'll be playing this a lot and loving the hell out of it.

I hope the rumors are true about Valve bringing the two groups together. I see a lot of possibilities if this was to happen.

[The Damned]

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4940/park01.jpg
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7717/park02.jpg

Hmmmm...

[big giant circles]

oh what the eff man, is that real? that's badass!

[Hale-Bopp]

Also, the middle part of that highway is supposed to be broken open with a semi hanging down through it. At least that's how it looked every single time I played through the demo.

[The Damned]

Yeah, it's fake. Someone just dropped the L4D1 character models in and took a screenshot.

But you were thinking about it, weren't you?

[big giant circles]

Well, crap. At the very least someone ought to plaster those all over the Steam boards so maybe Valve will get some ideas :)

[EdgeCrusher]

It was posted on the steam forums by the guys from facepunch studios. They then proceeded to say they "trolled" steam.

[Powerlord]

Given that the second time I played the demo, the AI Directory actually spawned a Smoker up there (which is a damned good place for a smoker, actually), I figured the L4D1 peeps weren't really up there.

[Native Jovian]

I suppose the difference in attitude is coming from the difference in playstyle. You guys are talking about closetcamping or rushing or versus tactics and stuff. I never do any of those, because I don't find them to be fun, despite the fact that they're good ways to win the game. If the fixes to your "it's too easy" kill my "woo shootin' zombies!" fun, then I think that's a legitimate complaint -- even though I recognize what they're trying to do. The fact that spitters are good for breaking up cornercamping or meleestacking honestly didn't occur to me -- because I didn't do that in L4D, I didn't notice that I couldn't in L4D2. The fact that I'm looking for something different in L4D2 than what you're looking for in L4D2 doesn't make me "wrong" -- it just means we have different opinions.

About weapons and infected being the same -- I didn't mean identical, I just meant that they're close enough as to make no real difference. The hunter/charger pins you in place, the smoker/jockey pulls you away from the group, and the boomer/spitter pukes crap at you that you have to avoid or take damage (and sprays the same crap when you kill it). The weapons have minor differences in accuracy, firepower, and ammo capacity, but ultimately a shotgun is still a shotgun and an assault rifle is still an assault rifle. I'd much rather have something actually new than variations on the old theme.

I won't say that everything added was a rehash, though. The adrenaline shot was neat -- it offers an interesting counterpart to the pain pills. I haven't had an opportunity to use the defibrillator in the demo yet, but I can see where it would be nice as well (though generally I think the health kit would be a better choice). The "gauntlet" crescendo event in the form of the "get to the tower to turn off the alarm" bit was also a neat change up from the original formula. The jukebox in the demo also started playing Jonathan Coulton's "Re: Your Brains" during one play through, which legitimately amused the crap out of me.

Anyway, I just wanted to express my opinion of the demo. I'm not trolling and I'm not making shit up just to piss you off; everything I've said here I honestly believe. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, but do me the favor of not insulting me for disagreeing with you. If negative opinions aren't allowed or this thread is "L4D2 fans only" or something, I'll totally leave you alone and you can go back to having your discussion without the distraction of dissenting opinions.

Ya'll can suck it for the console hate, though. I've been enjoying the demo more on my 360 than I have been on Steam.

[big giant circles]

I suppose the difference in attitude is coming from the difference in playstyle. You guys are talking about closetcamping or rushing or versus tactics and stuff. I never do any of those, because I don't find them to be fun, despite the fact that they're good ways to win the game. If the fixes to your "it's too easy" kill my "woo shootin' zombies!" fun, then I think that's a legitimate complaint -- even though I recognize what they're trying to do.

Fair enough, although I can't believe that you never hopped into a corner or closet/small room ever in L4D1. I mean, seriously, do you just stand in the hallway when you call the elevator in No Mercy hospital? Or stand in the middle of the street when you moved the forklift in Death Toll? Surely at some point you and your team retreated to an area that provided cover and funneled the infected where they'd be easier to defend against.

About weapons and infected being the same -- I didn't mean identical, I just meant that they're close enough as to make no real difference. The hunter/charger pins you in place, the smoker/jockey pulls you away from the group, and the boomer/spitter pukes crap at you that you have to avoid or take damage (and sprays the same crap when you kill it). The weapons have minor differences in accuracy, firepower, and ammo capacity, but ultimately a shotgun is still a shotgun and an assault rifle is still an assault rifle. I'd much rather have something actually new than variations on the old theme.

Well, remember, there is going to be a chainsaw and a GL launcher. But otherwise, in the spirit/theme of the game, I can't imagine there's a whole lot more weapons they can add. Perhaps a rocket launcher of some sort (though the GL is probably close enough) and maybe a flame-thrower might be cool, although it'd be a pretty cheap weapon to use based on how most of the horde handles fire. Otherwise, I mean, I'm no firearms expert, but aside from pistol, shotty, autorifle, burst rifle, sniper rifle, and explosive, how many new types of guns could they add? I mean, technically, all guns are point and shoot bullet and therefor just variations of each other if you want to split hairs. I feel like the handling is reasonably diverse for the new tier 2 additions. But that's just me. I mean, I get what you're saying, but I'm just not sure what else there is to add that would be drastically new and innovative enough to satisfy what it is you're looking for.

I won't say that everything added was a rehash, though. The adrenaline shot was neat -- it offers an interesting counterpart to the pain pills. I haven't had an opportunity to use the defibrillator in the demo yet, but I can see where it would be nice as well (though generally I think the health kit would be a better choice). The "gauntlet" crescendo event in the form of the "get to the tower to turn off the alarm" bit was also a neat change up from the original formula. The jukebox in the demo also started playing Jonathan Coulton's "Re: Your Brains" during one play through, which legitimately amused the crap out of me.

Well alright then. We were afraid you weren't recognizing any of the new features there for a sec :P

Anyway, I just wanted to express my opinion of the demo. I'm not trolling and I'm not making shit up just to piss you off; everything I've said here I honestly believe. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, but do me the favor of not insulting me for disagreeing with you. If negative opinions aren't allowed or this thread is "L4D2 fans only" or something, I'll totally leave you alone and you can go back to having your discussion without the distraction of dissenting opinions.

Again man, it has less to do with different opinions and more to do with incorrect analysis. There's a difference in saying "I didn't like the way the weapons handle" or something and "The weapons all feel the same". You came right out and said stuff like "The hunter and the charger are basically the same zombie" because that makes about as much sense as saying that a smart car is basically the same as a corvette. They move and attack completely differently. The fact that both have the ability to pin a single survivor is something they can both do, but the hunter can't split up groups or knock people off a ledge or charge through a group and then run away. How are you missing that?

As I've said numerous times already in this thread, none of us L4D fanboys are going to give a sideways crap if you or anyone doesn't care for the game or any other various aspects of it. It's the poor analysis and incorrect claims that spark the "WTF" reactions in us. If you're not sure what the difference is between not liking something and misjudging it is, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Carry on.

[JCvgluvr]

Just played the demo for 45 minutes on my 360 (can't play it on my computer, and I wouldn't want to if I could). And, well, I'm mixed, just like a lot of people.

Likes: Melee weapons. Well, actually, I'm just talking about the Machete. Holy crap, I was in my glory when first got my hands on it! Forget the other ones, they seemed much more useless to me! Chopping off an infected's head, seeing the blood from his neck spurt out like a geyser? Priceless! The Magnum was quite lovely. I'm willing to trade in double pistols and 30 ammo for it's awesome damage and range. Really glad to see different infected, I was getting very tired of using a hunter 6 times in a row during versus play. I also love the extra amount of variety like Adrenaline, Defribrilators, different types of rifles, ammo, and so on. Variety is the spice of life, am I right?

Dislikes: Where is the grit? Where is the serious tone? Where is that sense of being overwhelmed and overcome with despair/hopelessness? The inclusion of daylight probably has something to do with it. It just doesn't feel right to be taking down zombies without moonlight. The flashlight is much less useful, now. The music has gotten a makeover (or should I say remix?), and it just doesn't do it for me. Everything feels somewhat more cartoony; a tiny bit less scary, and a little more silly. And obviously, these new survivors lack character. Ellis seems like the only entertaining one of the bunch, and he doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Francis or Bill.

You know, it's just a demo, so we'll see how it goes. Stupid as this might sound, the auto-shottie earned 50% of my love and respect for L4D1, so I'm waiting to see how the 12-Gauge compares in L4D2. And may God have mercy on Valve if it's any less useful.

I've heard that Black Friday is going to drop ODST's and L4D2's prices down to $40. Can anyone confirm, and tell me how long this deal lasts? I probably won't buy L4D2 for full price, so this is all I can hope for.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I can confirm it for K-Mart at least. I get notified whenever a retailer puts up a black Friday ad. I don't remember ODST being on the list, but L4D2 was.

I also agree about the "grit and serious" tone. L4D2 is fun don't get me wrong, but it doesn't have that same sharp edge to it that the first one had, but we only got to play 2 chapters of one campaign so who knows? I just hope it's there.

The weapons are dramatically different(except for the carryovers) from eachother. There are plenty of differences in range, accuracy, spread, piercing, (stopping)power, reload time, firing rate and clip sizes. Like someone mentioned before, the AK is pretty damned powerful, but has shit accuracy. You're more likely to hit your targets in small bursts or single shots, but the new assault rifle? It's on. 3-burst shot, relatively accurate, awesome range, etc. The M16 is still the standard high tier goodness, but those two outclass it in different categories. We now have a full team of sniper rifle whores thanks to the new(awesome) semi-auto with a 30 round clip size. Holy crap if I didn't love this gun.

[Nicole Adams]

Dislikes: Where is the grit? Where is the serious tone? Where is that sense of being overwhelmed and overcome with despair/hopelessness? The inclusion of daylight probably has something to do with it. It just doesn't feel right to be taking down zombies without moonlight. The flashlight is much less useful, now. The music has gotten a makeover (or should I say remix?), and it just doesn't do it for me. Everything feels somewhat more cartoony; a tiny bit less scary, and a little more silly. And obviously, these new survivors lack character. Ellis seems like the only entertaining one of the bunch, and he doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Francis or Bill.
Yes, this is my biggest complaint. I don't know why the franchise had to go through such a makeover. L4D2 feels totally separate from the L4D1 universe.

[Hale-Bopp]

Guys, just wait until the Hard Rain campaign. Trust me, I feel the same way as you. The demo is not scary or creepy or haunting or what have you and I miss that a lot. But Hard Rain looks pretty damn freaky. Watch some videos on youtube if you need re-assurance. Hopelessness and despair will prevail!

[Scufo]

I think this "L4D2 isn't scary enough vibe" is coming from two places:

1. We've all already played L4D. Many of us have played the crap out of it. First time playing L4D, it was scary. You had no idea what was coming. But after playing it and playing it, that feeling faded. You find yourself charging through the levels, barely batting an eye when a Hunter pounces on a teammate. The Witch, which was probably the creepiest thing the first game had to offer, is little more than a mild inconvenience after having slaughtered her so many times.

I think some of that is carrying over to L4D2. Of course you're not going to have the same feeling of dread you did the first time you played L4D, because it's all very familiar.

2. However, I can't deny that there has been a stylistic change. The focus is slightly less survival horror and slightly more..."fuck yeah let's kill these muthafuckin zombies woooo". Just take a look at the intro movie and compare it to L4D's and this is pretty clear. Fighting in the daylight contributes to this a lot, and I am looking forward to fighting at night again in the other campaigns.

Still, though, I don't think a lot of you are considering #1 as much as you should.

[BardicKnowledge]

I think this "L4D2 isn't scary enough vibe" is coming from two places:

1. We've all already played L4D. Many of us have played the crap out of it. First time playing L4D, it was scary. You had no idea what was coming. But after playing it and playing it, that feeling faded. You find yourself charging through the levels, barely batting an eye when a Hunter pounces on a teammate. The Witch, which was probably the creepiest thing the first game had to offer, is little more than a mild inconvenience after having slaughtered her so many times.

I think some of that is carrying over to L4D2. Of course you're not going to have the same feeling of dread you did the first time you played L4D, because it's all very familiar.

2. However, I can't deny that there has been a stylistic change. The focus is slightly less survival horror and slightly more..."fuck yeah let's kill these muthafuckin zombies woooo". Just take a look at the intro movie and compare it to L4D's and this is pretty clear. Fighting in the daylight contributes to this a lot, and I am looking forward to fighting at night again in the other campaigns.

Still, though, I don't think a lot of you are considering #1 as much as you should.

I really think a large part of this is the music, as BGC said earlier. The witch music in L4D1 was creepy as hell. Not so much in L4D2. Similarly, the "horde is coming" theme was subtle in the original -- in L4D2 it's this crazy loud New Orleans cover version that just sounds silly. Hopefully the music reverts to more moody again as night approaches...

[Scufo]

I actually like the new music a lot. Especially the horde music with the crazy brass.

But yeah, I'd like to hear something different in the nighttime campaigns.

[big giant circles]

Dislikes: Where is the grit? Where is the serious tone? Where is that sense of being overwhelmed and overcome with despair/hopelessness? The inclusion of daylight probably has something to do with it. It just doesn't feel right to be taking down zombies without moonlight. The flashlight is much less useful, now. The music has gotten a makeover (or should I say remix?), and it just doesn't do it for me. Everything feels somewhat more cartoony; a tiny bit less scary, and a little more silly. And obviously, these new survivors lack character. Ellis seems like the only entertaining one of the bunch, and he doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Francis or Bill.

Yes, this is my biggest complaint. I don't know why the franchise had to go through such a makeover. L4D2 feels totally separate from the L4D1 universe.

Aight, see stuff like this I don't mind one bit, and I can even understand and relate to where you're coming from. It's not making outrageous claims saying stuff like "Oh, this and this are essentially the same" like comparing a watermelon to an apple because they're both fruit.

I can totally dig on that. My personal response has already pretty much been given with:

I think this "L4D2 isn't scary enough vibe" is coming from two places:

1. We've all already played L4D. Many of us have played the crap out of it. First time playing L4D, it was scary. You had no idea what was coming. But after playing it and playing it, that feeling faded. You find yourself charging through the levels, barely batting an eye when a Hunter pounces on a teammate. The Witch, which was probably the creepiest thing the first game had to offer, is little more than a mild inconvenience after having slaughtered her so many times.

I think some of that is carrying over to L4D2. Of course you're not going to have the same feeling of dread you did the first time you played L4D, because it's all very familiar.

Yep. The very first time I played L4D, man I got the chills/shakes/whatever you wanna call 'em. It was INTENSE. I mean, I was totally submerged in the game's vibe and experience. When I started hearing the witch music, I'd often just freeze thinking she was like right around the corner and going to do horrible horrible things to me if I accidentally disturbed her.

A month later: I'd learned it wasn't so bad, even if she did jump on me, my teammates would likely kill her and pick me back up. And if I died, eh, I'd be in a closet somewhere in a couple minutes.

A month later I'd learned how to crown the witch by now, so the music didn't even phase me. I'd stopped being scared/shaken up by the sound or sight of her and it was more a race to run and show my noob teammates that BGC was a witch assassin.

Same thing goes for all the infected really, I learned how to clean kill boomers and dead-stop hunters and break the tongue of smokers, and at that point, versus mode became the lasting game for me because it was harder to compete against infected who were actively working together to stop you from reaching a goal. I wasn't really playing it for the scare value anymore.

Anyway, that doesn't render your disappointment null or anything, I think that's probably just the psychology behind our feelings. And I think the guys at Valve probably figured that the multi-player is what's ultimately going to keep this game in the popular loop, so they made it more about the challenge of chopping, hacking, punching and shooting your way through an army of zombies to reach your goal than about being scared out of your wits like a traditional survival/horror game (R.E., Silent Hill, FEAR, etc). So pretty much

The focus is slightly less survival horror and slightly more..."fuck yeah let's kill these muthafuckin zombies woooo". Just take a look at the intro movie and compare it to L4D's and this is pretty clear.

And I guess that's why I actually found myself enjoying the daytime level, it's a nice change up. I'm sure looking forward to the darker levels though, absolutely. And I still do miss the old music, and absolutely the old characters. I don't think anyone who ever played L4D can deny that they were instantly lovable and endearing from literally the first video we saw them in. (And if you do, then you're a hopeless douche and will probably die alone and unloved ;-))

So um, yeah. Finally, some good discussion!

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I want this game so hard now. Grabbin' it on Black Friday.

I just hope the retail version isn't as laggy...

[JCvgluvr]

I think the lack of creepyness has more to do with daylight, more vibrant colors, and the new music more than the fact that we "lost our L4D creepyness-virginity." I know it's still there, because the new witch's crying disturbed my inner gamer. Not by much, mind you, but I still felt creeped out. But that was the only time. Everything else didn't disturb me in the slightest.

[big giant circles]

the fact that we "lost our L4D creepyness-virginity."

haha, that's a fun way to word it :-)

Also yeah, I actually thought the new witches crying and proximity music is actually just as if not more creepy now. Can't wait to hear it in the dark.

[BardicKnowledge]

If new witch runs around in the dark also, it will be fucking scary. Can't imagine turning a corner only to have her be _right_ there.

I'm hoping for a random mix of witches at night...would keep us on our toes at least.

[Nicole Adams]

I think the lack of creepyness has more to do with daylight, more vibrant colors, and the new music more than the fact that we "lost our L4D creepyness-virginity."
Yes, this right here. It's the artistic choices made for L4D2 that I don't like. I do like the daylight aspect, however. I never thought L4D was scary the first time I played it, except for the witches and the tanks still make me go, "Oh, crap!" (Even though I know where they will show up.) I actually found it hilarious when you would kill a hunter or smoker they'd go flying as if they were on the moon.

[Inimitable]

I think the witches only wander during the day. In one of the three interviews that were just put up on the blog one of the devs say "the witches wander around during the day," which implies they won't during the night.

[big giant circles]

Dude, I killed a jockey mid jump, and it's like he turned into a helium-filled balloon :lol: His body literally floated off into the sky, it didn't even fall.

[Bleck]

Dude, I killed a jockey mid jump, and it's like he turned into a helium-filled balloon :lol: His body literally floated off into the sky, it didn't even fall.

This has happened to me twice now, and both times I had to stop playing because I couldn't stop laughing.

[Powerlord]

Does anyone know what today's Demo update was for? Demos don't have release notes like normal games do.

[atmuh]

Does anyone know what today's Demo update was for? Demos don't have release notes like normal games do.
You mean these release notes (http://store.steampowered.com/news/3073/)?

Anyways I played the demo through once, but only on single player. It pretty much feels exactly the same as the first which is telling me that I definitely won't like the full version at all, but my brother and friend still wanna get a 4-pack so I'll probably end up with the game anyways. We'd need one more for a 4-pack also, if anyone is interested.

[Powerlord]

You mean these release notes (http://store.steampowered.com/news/3073/)?

Anyways I played the demo through once, but only on single player. It pretty much feels exactly the same as the first which is telling me that I definitely won't like the full version at all, but my brother and friend still wanna get a 4-pack so I'll probably end up with the game anyways. We'd need one more for a 4-pack also, if anyone is interested.

I usually just use "View update news" from the Steam Games screen, which doesn't show those for demos. Whoops.

[The Damned]

Oh, in case no one saw it yet, you can now pre-load the full game if you've bought it already. Be patient, though, as there seems to be a lot of people hammering the Steam servers for it. I had to try about five times to get a connection, and it's taking forever to download.

Still have to wait another week and a bit to play, of course...

So, I think the Magnum and the new sniper rifle are going to be my new standards. The magnum is rather powerful for a handgun, and the rifle is just... it's far better than the old rifle. Bigger clip (30 rounds as opposed to the hunting rifle's 15), better aim while running (the old hunting rifle had terrible accuracy while moving) and it seems just as powerful. I shot a hunter through a wall and killed it in two shots, so we know it as the penetrating power that the hunting rifle has.

[EdgeCrusher]

I preloaded like 2 nights ago. Went pretty fast then, but I think I caught it before the flood of people noticed. Now if only the 17th were here....

[Global-Trance]

Oh man preloaders GO FORTH

[I-n-j-i-n]

It says something when I got the 360 demo, it was still fun even while being amazingly laggy.

I still wish they update Source so it doesn't look like a 5-6 year old game engine it is. It just looks ancient. But I'm still most scared about the lag. Might finally get it if they fix it 100%.

[Bleck]

It just looks ancient.

not enough shiny brown space marines

[Tensei]

Locked and (pre)Loaded, bitches! Can't wait for it to come out now.

[big giant circles]

In what ways does it look ancient?

Still looks pretty good to me. /shrugs

[EdgeCrusher]

In what ways does it look ancient?

Still looks pretty good to me. /shrugs

Don't worry BGC, INJIN has to bitch about something in any post he makes.

[Level 99]

Hasn't source had these progressive updates through the years? I know they revamped it for the release of Orange Box for sure. Added some nifty new looks, like the motion blur (hello, nausea!). I'm with BGC, it still looks good to me, even without brown space marines.

Pre-loaded after playing the demo for the first time over the weekend. It says something when you grab a guitar, imagine it is your own not sitting 4 feet from you, and delve face-first into the fantasy of bashing a zombie's head in with it. Talk about awesome. I can't get enough of the opening movie either.

[Bleck]

In what ways does it look ancient?

not enough shiny brown space marines

Also, in my opinion the source engine is still the best looking engine on the market, simply because the characters have a tendency to actually look and move and act like real people - as opposed to other games that have cruse, plastic figurines that move in vaguely human patterns amongst a world with incredibly (needlessly) detailed flora and fauna that have no reflection on the actual game at all.

[The Damned]

I still wish they update Source so it doesn't look like a 5-6 year old game engine it is. It just looks ancient.
You think it might not be the engine, so much as it it that the 360 is still running the same hardware it had when it launched four years ago? The engine scales down depending upon the hardware. PCs are running far superior gear and it looks fucking great.

But I'm still most scared about the lag. Might finally get it if they fix it 100%.Again, four year old hardware, PCs running better gear... honestly, it sounds more like you have a shitty connection and "obsolete" hardware than anything else.

Maybe it's time you got a new computer? You can get a pretty decent gaming rig for less than $800 these days.

[Level 99]

Maybe it's time you got a new computer? You can get a pretty decent gaming rig for less than $800 these days.

My name is Level 99, and I approve/agree with this message. However, I feel like they should be optimizing it better considering the hardware in the 360 is still quite good by any standards. It can't beat a current high-end system, but the porting team will probably still end up doing a great job optimizing the code.

I can't help being a PC snob. :tomatoface:

Also, an open question: Was L4D, or for that matter L4D2, meant to be truly scary in the first place? Yes, there's a bit of jump-scaring with opening a door only to be face-to-face with a huge horde, and some tension-scaring with the music and enemies like the witch, but the game never struck me as intending to be unnerving. I really enjoy the original score, and while the New Orleans music caught me a little off-guard, I found myself enjoying the game that much more laughing my ass off whenever it came on.

Anyone else notice the AI seems to be a LOT better this time around?

[DarkeSword]

Original L4D is emotionally-draining for me, which is why I never played it as often as I should've. I think it's all the nighttime dreariness. I liked playing the demo in the daytime. It was a nice change of pace.

[The Damned]

Original L4D is emotionally-draining for me, which is why I never played it as often as I should've. I think it's all the nighttime dreariness. I liked playing the demo in the daytime. It was a nice change of pace.

Well, L4D2 only has one daytime campaign, so...

[JCvgluvr]

Of all the things that I disliked about the 360 demo, the technical level of the graphics wasn't one of them. I think it looks fine, on that level. Too colorful? Yes. Too bright? Yes. Too outdated? No, not at all.
Maybe it's time you got a new computer? You can get a pretty decent gaming rig for less than $800 these days.
And this, my friends, is why I'll neeeeeeeeeeever get a gaming PC. Am I the only one who thinks that 800 smackeroos is just too much to spend on hardware alone? Do you know how many games (on several different consoles), controllers (for several different consoles), Gamefly subscriptions, or even better TVs or surround sound systems I could get with that kind of moolah?! And the craziest part is, $800 is only considered DECENT! What kind of ludicrous amounts must I spend to get something noteworthy?!?!?! It just doesn't seem worth it to me, and I don't think it ever will.

[Vivi22]

And this, my friends, is why I'll neeeeeeeeeeever get a gaming PC. Am I the only one who thinks that 800 smackeroos is just too much to spend on hardware alone? Do you know how many games (on several different consoles), controllers (for several different consoles), Gamefly subscriptions, or even better TVs or surround sound systems I could get with that kind of moolah?! And the craziest part is, $800 is only considered DECENT! What kind of ludicrous amounts must I spend to get something noteworthy?!?!?! It just doesn't seem worth it to me, and I don't think it ever will.

How much did you spend to buy the computer you posted this on? Is the difference between that and $800 really too much to spend given what you could play by spending the extra? I'd be surprised if the difference were much more than the cost of a current console.

However, I feel like they should be optimizing it better considering the hardware in the 360 is still quite good by any standards. It can't beat a current high-end system, but the porting team will probably still end up doing a great job optimizing the code.

One thing I would never accuse Valve of is not doing a good enough job optimizing for PC hardware. Given they run the hardware survey through Steam they know exactly what their customers are using and optimize it to run on as many of those systems as possible within reason. It's a lot easier to optimize for the 360 since every single one has the exact same hardware. Getting a game running as smoothly on similar PC hardware (especially with all of the processes PC's run in the background) would be almost, if not impossible due to the sheer number of different configurations out there. At the very least, it would never be worth the time it would take to do it.

[Level 99]

One thing I would never accuse Valve of is not doing a good enough job optimizing for PC hardware. Given they run the hardware survey through Steam they know exactly what their customers are using and optimize it to run on as many of those systems as possible within reason. It's a lot easier to optimize for the 360 since every single one has the exact same hardware. Getting a game running as smoothly on similar PC hardware (especially with all of the processes PC's run in the background) would be almost, if not impossible due to the sheer number of different configurations out there. At the very least, it would never be worth the time it would take to do it.

I think you might have misunderstood me, or I may be misunderstanding you, but I wasn't accusing Valve of anything of the sort. I was, in fact, saying Valve does an INCREDIBLE job of their optimizations on the PC and was implying that whatever porting team for the 360 will do just as fine a job getting it run well on that hardware. I adore Valve's approach to nearly everything it does, from game programming to releases to the entire Steam distribution service, even if I may not be the biggest fan of the Half-Life series. L4D hit home with the zombie-lover in me, so I would hope that they do the exact same with the 360 port again this time around. I'm not a big console player, and I never will be a console player for FPS's (WASD + mouse 4 lyfe), so it matters to me not either way. I was responding to a supposed comment that the 360 version wasn't looking too good :razz:

[Bleck]

I've never found L4D to be particularly frightening - the different between say, L4D and Silent Hill, is that in L4D, I can basically kill every zombie I see with either my almost infinite ammo shotgun or, if worse coems to worse, my infinite ammo pistols. And if somebody dies, we can just bring them back to life in a magic closet later. Whereas in Silent Hill oh my god what is that what do I even agh god it's spitting shit at me OH MY GOD THERE IS ANOTHER ONE BEHIND ME OH MY FUCK AAAHHHHHHHH HAVE YOU SEEN MY DAUGHTER

[Global-Trance]

I just tried the 360 Demo. It looks pretty awful compared to the PC.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

How much did you spend to buy the computer you posted this on? Is the difference between that and $800 really too much to spend given what you could play by spending the extra? I'd be surprised if the difference were much more than the cost of a current console.

And this here is what PC gamers don't understand in their consumer lust: It's not a question of can a person afford the rig as much as there isn't enough of a justification to throw down about eight Benjamins on a whim. It's the same reason people were appalled at the $500 and $600 price tag when the PS3 launched.

Can he afford it? Maybe, but it's all about priorities.

Ok we can now go back to talking about Left 4 Dead 2 AKA, my latest obsession.

[BardicKnowledge]

You can get a Radeon HD 4850 for $100 now, and it'll be even cheaper on Black Friday (when I'm going to get mine).

People talk about a "gaming" computer costing $800, but if you have a home desktop, it's not actually going to cost you that much. I'm running a 2.4Ghz quad core with a Nvidia 7800GTX atm and can run Source just fine. Hell, Fallout 3 runs just fine.

My processor is a full generation back, and my graphics card is TWO generations back, and I don't have a problem. It's easy to get a gaming-capable PC these days.

Edit: When you buy your next notebook, take gaming into consideration. Get an independent graphics card if you want to play games, simple as that. My wife's laptop, while not GREAT for gaming, has an Nvidia 9400M inside, and runs Heroes of Newerth and emulation stuff well enough. If I lowered the settings a ton, it'd probably play TF2 / L4D just fine also.

[JCvgluvr]

It's not a question of can a person afford the rig as much as there isn't enough of a justification to throw down about eight Benjamins on a whim. It's the same reason people were appalled at the $500 and $600 price tag when the PS3 launched.

Can he afford it? Maybe, but it's all about priorities.
Exactly my point. The only thing that could possibly tempt me into PC gaming is PC exclusive games. And sorry, but there's absolutely no PC exclusive game that interests me in the slightest.

[EdgeCrusher]

The awesomesness of mouse + keyboard, better graphics/resolution, and free online play/actual good online play should be enough to tempt you. If that doesn't, there's no point in even arguing it.

[Bleck]

not to mention people who play PC games online as opposed to console games have a much lower tendency of being ten year old boys

[Schwaltzvald]

not to mention people who play pc games online as opposed to console games have a much lower tendency of being ten year old boys

This! Oh for the love of all that is awesome and good it's this~!

EDIT* I see there's a weird filter that prevents allcaps on text.

Is it really necessary? Next I'll be seeing words filtered out for PC use.

[big giant circles]

not to mention people who play PC games online as opposed to console games have a much lower tendency of being ten year old boys

very true, but at the same time, which is more frustrating, a 10 year old kid who's acting like an obnoxious 10 year old, or a grown man who's acting like an obnoxious 10 year old who suddenly realized they know every trendy obscene word in the language and make it a point to use all of them twice every time they speak words.

It's like trying to decide if you'd rather fall into a fire or a vat of boiling acid.

Naturally, in the end, I think I'd go with the one that involves less 10 year olds, but it's still so sad to think of the grown people acting the way they do.

[Vivi22]

And this here is what PC gamers don't understand in their consumer lust: It's not a question of can a person afford the rig as much as there isn't enough of a justification to throw down about eight Benjamins on a whim. It's the same reason people were appalled at the $500 and $600 price tag when the PS3 launched.

Can he afford it? Maybe, but it's all about priorities.

Ok we can now go back to talking about Left 4 Dead 2 AKA, my latest obsession.

You missed my point. If you're already spending $500 on a new computer, and looking for a new gaming platform, the extra $300 to get there with a PC is a lot more justifiable than just saying, "I think I'm going to drop $800 on a gaming PC today."

I also refuse to accept the argument that there are no interesting PC exclusives when no FPS made for the PC should ever be played without a mouse and keyboard and games like Starcraft 2 are coming down the pipe.

Anyway, how about the L4D2 that comes out in a week? It's going to be fucking awesome. Also, I still have yet to get to use the Magnum in the demo. Had I not seen one player with it in a game I joined I'd be convinced everyone was bullshitting me about it's existence.

[EdgeCrusher]

I loooooooooooooooooove the magnum :D

[JadeAuto]

I loooooooooooooooooove the magnum :D

In the demo: The first long street (right after the cafe with the jukebox), it has around a 30% chance of replacing the handgun at the end of the street.

I haven't seen it spawn anywhere else.

[Scufo]

I've never seen a magnum

[phill]

I've never seen a magnum

Hawaiian shirt, mustache, drives a Ferrari, kinda hard to miss.

[Global-Trance]

Yea if it shows up, I think it's near the street barricade right before you have to hop the fence into the alleyway.

[big giant circles]

Hawaiian shirt, mustache, drives a Ferrari, kinda hard to miss.

aha, that was awesome :)

[The Damned]

I can only hope that there is some sort of mod later where you can have dual magnums; yes, it would be totally unbalanced, but FUCK YEAH, MAGNUMS!

[Triad Orion]

Hawaiian shirt, mustache, drives a Ferrari, kinda hard to miss.

Win.

One thing I notice Valve forgot to put into L4D2's demo. You know, that lovely little feature that has the user's preferred difficulty level override a server preset.

Imagine my surprise when me and three friends think we're playing on Advanced and when one of them shoots me by accident I lose 2/3rds of my health. Turns out the server overrode me and had it set on Expert as a default. What the hell. Really, a minor annoyance for an otherwise outstanding demo, but it struck me as kind of weird that they forgot to implement that when it was one of the first things they patched in the original.

[The Damned]

Yeah, happened a few times to me. It also reset to expert when we went to the next level.

Also, where are people getting all these ammo packs and incendiary rounds in the demo? You can spawn one in with cheats, but it's supposed to show up naturally.

[Scufo]

Same here. Me and my friends did an easy-mode, melee-only run.

Didn't work out so great when the zombies started hitting for 20.

[Vivi22]

Also, where are people getting all these ammo packs and incendiary rounds in the demo? You can spawn one in with cheats, but it's supposed to show up naturally.

I didn't even know they were in the demo.

[EdgeCrusher]

I did a melee only machete run on expert with bots as teammates. Got all the way to the alarm area and made it up to turn it off and got gang raped. Damn it was great.