Questions for OLDER GAMERS

[anne amère]

how the hell did you beat those old games on the NES

those games are so hard

battletoads is impossible without save states

the first zelda is impossible without a guide (the 2nd quest at least)

i can't imagine kids not GIVING UP for several of these games

HOW DID YOU DO IT

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

The fact that you didn't get a new game for a long time had a lot to do with it for me. It was simply a matter of learning patterns and muscle memory.

[Meteo Xavier]

Hell yeah Malaki.

Its mainly because those games were different in a different time period. Games weren't as long and kids didn't have as much shit to do or availability, so we had more opportunities to play those Battletoads levels over and over again and get really good at them.

With different methods of gameplay came different expectations. The difficulty has switched for me, personally. Its harder for me to play through a moderate level 40-50 hour RPG than it is to play a challenging 2-3 hour game.

[Schwaltzvald]

Learn fast and being open minded of any possible solution, no matter how stupid it seems.

Saved my ass plenty of times just setting up bombs in a darknut infested room or switch to the wand/staff whenever I lost being able to shoot energy bolts from the sword due to being hit... Makes for a nice substitute most of the time.

2nd quest was just that, diving into the unknown and trying everything.

I remember the first time I finished Capcom's "Disney's Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers" on the nes with my sister, it made me realized how awesome coop gaming can be. Playing the game alone seemed practically impossible; not to mention not as much fun.

[Skrypnyk]

i played games that didn't have an ending.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

i played games that didn't have an ending.

So you sucked at gaming then?

*rimshot*

[Ronyn]

Malaki is right, it's all about memorization. Games these days are completely dynamic, multiple solutions to 1 problem, back then it was up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start...or die.

If it makes you feel better, I never beat Battle Toads without a game genie either, it was a poorly designed end level based on the arcade game designed to keep you pumping quarters.

[eternal Zero]

There was a different skill and mindset back in those days. You had games that were harder and you didn't see them as such. That was the norm. Now I don't call myself really an older gamer but I do remember that when playing Super Mario World on the SNES when I was like 5 that I was an absolute monster. I was so good at the game you have no idea. I knew that there was a different exit out of the bridge level if you flew under the entire thing. I don't know how I knew. Nobody told me but I just found it.

New games being all about a fun easy experience versus an actual challenging hard game is a change that seems to be here to stay. Both are fun but most people enjoy the same amount of fun for a significantly less amount of work.

[anne amère]

lol i could never fly past the saws so i just used yoshi to get to soda lake

[Dj Mokram]

how the hell did you beat those old games on the NES
HOW DID YOU DO IT

There was no laptops. No internet. No mobile phones. ...No bullshit. :mrgreen:
We just spent a lot more time on them that nowadays.

...and we must have been a little masochistic too, I guess.

[Shadowe]

Have you ever seen kids argue? They'll spend as long as you let them just going "Yes you did-No i didn't" back and forth.

Imagine that single minded now-its-personal zealotry being brought up against a videogame.

[Meteo Xavier]

If it makes you feel better, I never beat Battle Toads without a game genie either, it was a poorly designed end level based on the arcade game designed to keep you pumping quarters.

The NES game came out BEFORE the arcade, goober. :P

[Schwaltzvald]

The "nintendo-hard" games are few and far inbetween, but once you find them they are fun as games that don't require much effort; imo the ones which require a lot of effort are more fun...

Case in point-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B-5Jn7iaZU&feature=channel_page (perhaps easier than Silver Surfer on the NES but still very enjoyable)

Another great example would be upping the difficulty on your own like in the old days. In this case it's throwing in the "fast monster parameter" --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1frEKQ3GN4E

[StandingInMotion]

I think I actually took things personally from the game if I didn't get it the first time.

"I'm a thinking human. You're a programmed machine... you are incapable of being "smarter" than me... I will not allow this!"

That's how I got through the days. :<

[The Dennis]

Regarding the 'Second Quest' in Zelda 1, I bring you this fantastic piece of historical copypasta from ABDN:


Years before this — one year before Super Mario Bros., even — there was a game called The Tower of Druaga. This game was essentially Pac-Man with a human protagonist. And not just any human protagonist — a knight named Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh had a quest: to rescue a princess who had been kidnapped by a demon named Druaga, who lived at the top of a sixty-floor tower. Gil’s duty was to wander the tower, slaying slime monsters with his sword, blocking fireballs with his shield, and finding semi-randomly placed keys with which to open the semi-randomly placed door on each floor. The hilarious catch of Druaga was that a player could climb all the way to the sixtieth floor, only to learn that he cannot win the game because he does not possess the necessary “hidden treasures”.

The “hidden treasures” in Druaga are the alpha and the omega if you’re talking about kleptomania as videogame design. On each floor, the location of the “treasure” is different, as are the criteria for unlocking it. The player starts each floor in a different location, and the layout of the maze floors are semi-random (one of many recognizable templates selected at random) though the treasure will always be in the same place of its respective floor on each playthrough. Some of the criteria for unlocking a treasure are alarmingly complex: stand in a particular square, face north, press the attack button fourteen times, step one square to the left, face south, press the attack button three times, step two squares right, face west, press the attack button eight times (I’m exagerrating slightly), and a treasure appears in a remote square visible to the player.

Watching a play-through of Druaga on YouTube will yield only questions in the mind of the uninitiated viewer; chief among those questions might be “why would someone want to play this?” In this day and age where Druaga is remade with polygons, paid tribute in dungeons in larger RPGs, the subject of many online strategy guides, and stuffed into portable classics compilations which are kind enough to include a list of the treasure locations and requirements in the instruction manual, it may be a tough question to answer. The solution to the mystery is that the overflowing crypticism was the whole point of Druaga.

No, the means for obtaining treasures were not originally published in “videogame magazines”: this was 1984.

......

Miyamoto had vocally appreciated Tower of Druaga for its ability to reach outside the game and inspire players to write things down and share conversations with fellow players. He wanted to do something similar with Zelda — where certain unassuming bushes can be burned down or certain unassuming wall tiles can be bombed, revealing staircases leading to underground caves where players can earn money or buy items. The “second quest” of the game, opened after completing the first quest, goes so far as to hide the majority of its dungeon entrances in completely obscure and arbitrary places. The game was structured this way, no doubt, to provoke conversation among friends.


So essentially, the tl;dr version is that the second quest was MEANT to be pieced together by the community as a whole by word-of-mouth (this is before widespread consumer internet, remember).

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

That's actually pretty cool.

[megadave]

"how the hell did you beat those old games on the NES?"

There are still some games I haven't beaten, like Ghosts and Goblins. The last time I tried to beat Blaster Master, I was near the last boss and the game froze, never to work again. I am still waiting for the right time, to execute my revenge. I still can't beat the first Ninja Gaiden without using continues.

"those games are so hard."

Yes, especially ghost and goblins

"battletoads is impossible without save states"

It is possible. It took me years to beat. Years. And a little luck.

"the first zelda is impossible without a guide (the 2nd quest at least)"

I love Zelda's difficulty. Zelda 2, on the other hand, that game will take some patience to master. Yet, I love that game's difficulty too. I also like to eat whole habenero peppers and have fully grown people punch me as hard as they can, so let's just forget about that.

"i can't imagine kids not GIVING UP for several of these games"

If there is a will, there is a way. It takes patience, faith, skill and hard work to beat a lot of those games from back in the day, and I'm proud to have been a part of it. I also think that a lot of games were designed to only be beatable by certain people. Many referred to this concept as "mastering" a game. You could actually be considered good at a game without actually beating it. Like if you could get to level 7 on Battletoads, but if you beat the game, you "mastered" it.

[eternal Zero]

Unfortunately those are times long past. I can't remember the last time I had an awesome conversation with a friend talking about the random stuff we found in a game that was totally awesome. Thinking back as far as I can I know I did it with SMW, Super Metroid and some other SNES games like the easter eggs in Super Mario RPG and Genesis games like Ecco. To a much lesser extent SM64 because by that time strategy guides became popular as well as your magazines with cheats and tricks and all that jazz.

[Curly Brace]

I lived in Africa. There was nothing else better to do than go out and play sports, and that got old after a while too.

[Elex Synn]

how the hell did you beat those old games on the NES

those games are so hard

battletoads is impossible without save states

the first zelda is impossible without a guide (the 2nd quest at least)

i can't imagine kids not GIVING UP for several of these games

HOW DID YOU DO IT

Mostly with help from my friends, and using the candles/bombs on EVERY possible tree and walling until I found everything in every screen (As far as the original Zelda goes). Zelda 2 I never got very far in. Even when playing it now and days I find the game is still a GAWD DAMN BASTARD. :puppyeyes:

Though in all seriousness if I got stuck in a game I returned to it later after playing something else for a while.

Edit: Actually, I was wondering if anyone here was able to beat Strider back in the day? I couldn't get anywhere with that mess.

[friendlyHunter]

All I have to say is: thank goodness for Virtual Console (and emulators). When you want the unforgiving challenge of the NES days, nothing quite does it like the original games themselves ^_^

Nowadays (here we go, old guy rant!!) most games are built so that even a four year old can beat it, and it requires a LOT of time but not a lot of effort. Well most games by Nintendo at least. Take for example Mario Galaxy... you have to play through a TON of levels before you get to the sufficiently challenging Purple Coin and 1-hit kill levels... and only a few of those are a real challenge. If you're good at the game you'd think you'd be able to blast through it like nobody's business... but you can't; you have to run and jump around easy-land for hours and hours before you get an actual CHALLENGE to face... it's hardly a "game" in the traditional sense when it's so easy. Twilight Princess, Windwaker, Metroid Prime 2 and 3, Prince of Persia (I'm just naming console games off the top of my head) - they're all like this to a large extent. Some of these can be played in a "harder" difficulty by skipping heart pieces and energy tanks, but they're STILL way too easy... they simply weren't designed to be challenging to someone who knows how to play (and it's quite easy to learn how to play).

And then there are games like Megaman 9. When I first got MM9, I tried every level and did not complete one of them - some of them I barely got a quarter of the way through. And it's not because of bad luck or cheapness, it's because the game requires SKILL and EFFORT to play. Now that's what I'm talking about! =D


Zelda 1 and 2 - ok, there are some mandatory hidden secrets that are just really crazy, but again that could be called a social aspect of the game (and they're not that bad when you can look up the answer). Metroid on the other hand... that game is the embodiment of unforgiving gameplay, so it's very excusable there ^_^

I played and beat Zelda 1 (both quests) and Zelda 2 and Metroid only a couple years ago, and they're not perfect, but I found the gameplay and challenge at a much better level than most newer games I've played. I'll admit Zelda 2 was frustrating as hell at some points, but playing the game to the end was SO worth it!

[Gario]

You youngin's jess don' understand what pleasure you could git frum repeatedly doing something over and over until you just get good at that thar game. Do it again and again, dag-nabbit!

Yeah, it was all about repetition. All the games were pretty difficult and there was no one to turn to if you couldn't do it (unlike today, when parents often were gamers, themselves), nor was there any easier alternative, so you just played the shit out of the games you had until you beat them.

Repetition - it's what it was all about, man.

[Winter's Wings]

Video gaming is probably the only example of an activity where the equivalent to beating your head senselessly against a brick wall actually ends up getting you somewhere...

[Poke'G]

lol i could never fly past the saws so i just used yoshi to get to soda lake

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/moondizzlepi/yoshi.jpg

I hope you had fun at Soda Lake...

[Faustt]

Well, when you think about it this was in the 80s. There wasn't nearly the same amount of entertainment out there for kids. No internet, so no youtube, hulu, myspace, facebook etc... think of all the time we spend online now-a-days. TV networks haven't over saturated the airwaves with childrens networks yet. You were lucky if you had a Nintendo Power that was a special strategy guide issue for 1 single game.. A lot of it was just LONG days in front of a TV screen with nothing else to do (playing outside is so overrated).

In a lot of those older games about the only way (for me) to beat them was to just play them for hours and hours. I'd get a little farther each time, die, then start from scratch again knowing that there's spikes in the next room now. Battletoads is a good example of this method... lol.

[PROTO·DOME]

it's because the game requires SKILL and EFFORT to play.

I found that games like this require less skill and more memory- they do make you feel skilled once you've learned how to ace the level over and over.

[Nec5]

Once you've reached the upper levels in Yar's Revenge as I did, everything else is child's play or uninteresting.

[Darklink42]

I always took the game personally when it gave me a challenge I couldn't overcome. A lot of that has changed, and I don't think that most games nowadays give you that sense of being so overwhelmingly frustrating, at least not for the right reasons. Old school games were enjoyable because you knew if you just tried a little longer, or thought a little more cleverly, you'd get through it. Not so much now, what with hints, tutorials, gaming guides, and the internet. The games that end up frustrating are only that way because they play badly, not because they were made to be a challenge in that sense.

I think what I miss most is the sense of exploration. It was so much cooler finding stuff no one had seen before, or that you would not have guessed was there. Zelda, Mario, Metroid. Those were all games where you had to write stuff down or memorize patterns. They gave you a map when you bought the Legend of Zelda on NES, but it was up to you to fill out where stuff was. God help you if you forgot where essential stuff was either. I must have played for days trying to remember how to get the white sword. I'm sure there are still people out there today who have their old hand drawn maps for Metroid.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

This is gonna sound strange.

Anyone else ever feel "weighed down" by 3D? Like sometimes it's too much?

[aubrey]

For Super Mario Brothers, I was visiting an arcade and saw some guy bounce on the turtle for tons of extra lives. For the minus level in the game, I heard about it as a rumor among the school kids.

For the Legend of Zelda and several other popular NES games, there was a black strategy guide that EVERYONE had at the time. I can't remember the name of the book though. It was a bible that was well worn by the time I was done with it. The second quest really stumped me. They introduced that new game mechanic of pushing through some walls, and nobody told me. My aunt pushed against a wall and went through, and then the rest of the second quest was easy.

Obviously Nintendo Power was a great source of information. There was a cheats and tips section that would contain the kind of information that you'd get from gamefaqs now. Before that there was the Nintendo Fun Club Newsletter. If I remember correctly, one of the fun clubs mentioned about how you could get to secret areas if you let some of the doors close on samus, which was good information for WEEKS of fun exploring hidden areas of Metroid. Actually, it was an exercise in frustration with "DAMN IT, SAMUS IS STUCK IN BALL FORM IN THE WALL. I WAS SO CLOSE TO GETTING TO THE HIDDEN AREA"

Mike Tyson's punchout.. I have no idea where I heard the 007-373-5963 code to start at Tyson, but I used it so many times, I don't even have to think to recall it. At my best, I used to be able to beat Tyson in about 1 out of 4 tries. 1 out of 10 if people were watching.

It is sort of like the konami code on contra. As far as I know, everyone knew the konami code right when the game came out, and we naturally tried the code on every konami game we owned, with some success.

I never could beat Ghosts and Goblins. That game was too hard man. I got to near the end, and found out that I needed to play through again, and said 'f this!

I never beat Battle Toads either. I did get past the cycle part that is so brutal one time, but I totally remember being crazy frustrated with how exact the timings needed to be. GRRRR.

I suspect that a lot of information came from the Nintendo game Hotline. They used to advertise that pretty heavily in the game pak manuals. I called a few times myself when I was stuck on some adventure game (Zelda: LttP, Battle of Olympus) and my impression was those game counselors were gods. I have no idea how they could figure out my problem from an over the phone description for some random game and give me back a correct answer in no time flat. It was amazing! From what I gathered, a lot of my friends called more than I did...

I'll agree with others that mentioned that we had a lot more time to spend on games. I typically got a game for my birthday and christmas. Six months with a game that takes 4 days to beat.. Think about that.

Somewhere after the first month with a game, I'd try to find glitches. Lots of the old NES games had problems.

Take Rygar, a pretty cool game with what I personally consider to have the best musical track for the NES (Sagila's Cavern)...

I found that if I calibrated my NES Advantage controller to press buttons as fast as possible, that I could slowly 'fall' from the top of the ropes in the game, and glide/fly practically anywhere. There were all kinds of hidden areas to explore with that trick. Of course, unless the controller pressed the buttons at exactly the right times, Rygar would fall to his death, so calibrating the controller was a must.

I'd calibrate the joystick using the options screen of the game gyromite. It turns out that when you press a button in the options screen the game beeps. The NES advantage had a dial on it that you could turn to calibrate the speed of the turbo button presses. When the audible beep on Gyromite was constant, that was the fastest the NES could accept auto fire presses. For reference, if you turned the dial to the max setting, the timings worked out such that it was NOT be the fastest possible setting.

So anyway, I don't think that what I did was particularly special. I think we were all doing similar things back in the day. So, it probably represents the amount of effort a lot of us put into the few games we owned.

The accomplishment that I am most proud of is beating this crappy game called Deadly Towers for the NES. I never had a guide, or an instruction manual, or anything. I never got hints, and I made it to the end after months of on again off again effort. God I hated that game. At least the ending music was pretty awesome.

So, that is my take on how we got our information before gamefaqs and emulators.

-Aubrey

[Gario]

To be honest, retro gaming is a guilty pleasure of mine - I almost don't play any new generation of VG's anymore, nor am I ever really excited about them, but I still play the oldies religiously (sadly, I need to emulate them, now, but it's better than nothing).

I love those old, super difficult games (Silver Surfer still remains one of my favorites - bless those ridiculously difficult levels). They just get my blood boilin'! :-o

[Sensai]

I grew up with those harder games. I remember me and my father playing Zelda when I was like 6, just running around aimlessly killing things on the screen. Games had less direction back then which, I guess lookin' back on it now, isn't a great thing, but they were still a lot of fun. Zelda especially gave me the sense that it was up to me (and my dad, I s'pose) to save the world from...whatever the hell it was we were trying to save the world from.

Battletoads I never beat when I was little. I remember me and a friend would attempt it every single time he came over and never got past the third level (the speed bike level). 15 years later, I hacked my Wii and me and ANOTHER friend sunk a ridiculous amount of time into it and I finally beat it. Then I got to the point that I was able to beat it without using more than one continue. It was a great feeling to beat the snot out of a game that I could never beat when I was younger.

I also remember beating Mega Man 2 in less than a day when I was like 6. That and Battletoads with only one continue are two of my greatest accomplishments concerning videogames.

Sorry, I rambled. I guess the answer to the question is that we just didn't give up (unless it was Battletoads). We just kept throwing our lives, continues, and will at the game until finally it just gave up on us.

[Curly Brace]

This is gonna sound strange.

Anyone else ever feel "weighed down" by 3D? Like sometimes it's too much?

...Sort of. There are a lot of new versions of old games out there that have gone to 3d or tried to hype up their graphics. The sacrifices made in the name of graphics or easy mode gaming have been increasingly dismaying. I think that's why I like my DS so much compared to my Wii. Wii is great, but DS offers games that at least have a 'trace' of old feel to them, and they let you play some gameboy games too. Not as good as the old Nintendo/Super Nintendo, but getting closer.

[Eulogic]

my brother and i played zelda with our dad and we had a giant piece of grid paper that we used to map out the overworld and all of its secrets

basically, we constructed our own guide

[Dj Mokram]

Just had a strange thought: maybe nowadays, kid aren't as well prepared to accept failure as the now-oldest of us were.
With old games, you knew you were in for some randomness and unfair deaths, leading to lots of game over screens, disapointment and frustration.
But that frustration forged a spirit, and it made us pick the pad to try once more... times and again.

I wonder if the casual turn that the gaming industry has taken recently isn't there to respond to that lack of spirit in a way...

Actually it's fun when you think about the fact that today, some people manage to beat those game in between 5min to an hour and a half.
Imagine how a concept like speedruning would have ruined it all back then.
But I do enjoy speedruning some oldies occasionally like the Megaman serie, or Metroid/Castlevania.

Which lead me to another amazing thing old games has brought us: memory.
The amount of info we had to process and re-use later on in order to advance was tremendous.
To this day, I still remember useless things, like where the powerup are located in some game.
Or how to solve puzzles and get out of a particular maze in some other.

Whereas nowdays, if you're blocked, just head over to Game FAQ and you're pretty much done.
Which is a bit saddening in a way...

[Curly Brace]

Just had a strange thought: maybe nowadays, kid aren't as well prepared to accept failure as the now-oldest of us were.
With old games, you knew you were in for some randomness and unfair deaths, leading to lots of game over screens, disapointment and frustration.
But that frustration forged a spirit, and it made us pick the pad to try once more... times and again.

I wonder if the casual turn that the gaming industry has taken recently isn't there to respond to that lack of spirit in a way...

Actually it's fun when you think about the fact that today, some people manage to beat those game in between 5min to an hour and a half.
Imagine how a concept like speedruning would have ruined it all back then.
But I do enjoy speedruning some oldies occasionally like the Megaman serie, or Metroid/Castlevania.

Which lead me to another amazing thing old games has brought us: memory.
The amount of info we had to process and re-use later on in order to advance was tremendous.
To this day, I still remember useless things, like where the powerup are located in some game.
Or how to solve puzzles and get out of a particular maze in some other.

Whereas nowdays, if you're blocked, just head over to Game FAQ and you're pretty much done.
Which is a bit saddening in a way...

I think some people just got the wrong idea growing up. We're a different generation you know? It seems like a 'lot' of stuff we grew up with that conditioned us/toughened us up, have all been watered down for the current generation for fear of actually challenging them or upsetting them. With issues like Columbine and people lobbying against time-consuming games or potentially dangerous activities that still offered a lot of growth and character, the industries seem to have tried to meet these half-way on nearly all fronts, from quality of reading to videogames and movies. Of course, I could just be biased, but I don't think it seems like kids get the same enriching 'childhood' we did.

[The Coop]

This may sound like a "Back in my day"-style comment, but games in the NES and SMS era relied more on the player having to solve things for themselves. Games today hold the player's hand far too much, making even the most complicated thing easier by dropping blatant hints... if not just flat out telling you what to do. Even during the 16bit era, games were still harder in this sense than they are today. And really, the same can be said for computer games from the ol' DOS period.

Back then, the hints were vague and required you to explore to find out what they meant, the level designs required spot-on timing, enemies respawned after you killed them and scrolled the screen forward a bit, levels were specifically designed to be trial and error (forcing you to memorize each bit to advance)... it was all sorts of things that made the games of old tougher to figure out. These days, the game practically tells you how to win, and shows you how to go about it. It's quite a shift.

Now, I'm not saying that today's games are all cakewalks. Ninja Gaiden Black showed that hard-as-nails gaming still exists. But the majority of the titles we see now are made so it's easier to figure things out.

So yeah, when you step back to an older game you've forgotten about, or never got to play, there's a good chance it'll kick your ass without mercy. But that's only because it expects you to do the work, and not be guided through step by step by the game itself.

[cobaltstarfire]

While I would say older games are hard, I wouldn't say they're that hard in retrospect. Going back to play some of them, they're very very easy, or even if they have a high death rate, I can still beat them in just 2-3 days of casual game play.

I'm not really that good at games, so I'd assume most of you can also go back and do the same thing, even with "nintendo hard" games you've never played before. After growing up with such unforgiving games, any game today would seem a lot easier than it should be because we have a huge repository of video game conventions. So we can make some really weird leaps in logic to play that people that don't have the experience would never make.

That's what I've observed anyway probably means very little. I do agree that games now are a bit in the "too easy" side of things, it just seems more then too easy cause we started with very hard.

[Zipp]

i further the notion that it had a lot to do with what was available, the overal length of games, the number of terrible games, and how few games were released and how long it took for them to be released.

It's why many of those games don't hold up today.

[Gario]

I have to say it's very aggravating watching my nephews play video games today and having them ask for help constantly (and if they don't get the help they just give up on the game entirely). I vow never to reveal that I actually could kick the crap out of the games that they play because I would then fall under the repressive stream of cries for help that my younger brother and sister must deal with, right now, but it is none-the-less really annoying watching them give something a try and tell me it can't be done, then give up.

It wouldn't be so bad if they just stopped playing because of that, but they keep returning to the same games, play up to a hard part and give up. What the hell are we teaching the children, to give up when something is difficult?!

They've gotten a little better about it, over time, but really - because other people can now simply play it for them there is no pleasure in the journey, anymore. Kids these days now only play to win - what's the fun of that?

[Red Shadow]

the difference is that we all have jobs now and no longer have entire days to devote to learning how to beat a game

an easier game that is still enjoyable is a nice diversion every now and then

[Curly Brace]

the difference is that we all have jobs now and no longer have entire days to devote to learning how to beat a game

an easier game that is still enjoyable is a nice diversion every now and then

...No offense, but that doesn't sound like the difference at all... Even with a job I seem to recall leaving the Nintendo on all day while I ran to school so I didn't lose my progress when I got back home and could get right back into it. You think I'd stop doing the equivalent just cause I have to go to work? And what does that have to do with the new generation of gamers/games?

[Dj Mokram]

there is no pleasure in the journey, anymore.
This.
Like the saying goes: "It's the journey that counts, not the destination".

I feel as if it's the same in other areas of life. While teaching the basics of beatmaking, I always had youngsters asking me: "who taught you how to do it?"
To what I always answered that I was self-taught. That I had spend hours trying to figure things out, on my own.
They never believed me, because for them, and no matter what I said, it was obvious that I had to ask or pay someone to get this information.

So I can definitely relate to:Of course, I could just be biased, but I don't think it seems like kids get the same enriching 'childhood' we did

[K.B.]

my brother and i played zelda with our dad and we had a giant piece of grid paper that we used to map out the overworld and all of its secrets

basically, we constructed our own guide
Yup, same. Did with CV2 as well, but that was just with the hints. Freaking graveyard duck...

Speaking of needing to take notes: Ultima IV, Quest of the Avatar. No one in his right mind would suffer through such a game today. No, screw you volcano, you take that damned bell, candle, flute, drum, skull and whatever else and shove them up your pipe. I'm done here.

[Meteo Xavier]

Even with a job I seem to recall leaving the Nintendo on all day while I ran to school so I didn't lose my progress when I got back home and could get right back into it.

You burned through a lot of TVs, didn't you?

[Curly Brace]

You burned through a lot of TVs, didn't you?

No. I left the Nintendo on. Since it was paused, I left the TV off. ..Why would I leave the TV on? That has nothing to do with my gaming progress. I can't think of a single time in my life a TV has actually failed on me.

[linkspast]

You burned through a lot of TVs, didn't you?

I too left my games running... but you can turn off the tv

[Gario]

Hah, who didn't leave their games running? Nowadays electricity costs so much, though... I'm actually glad that part of gaming history is gone.

[Sensai]

I remember leaving my Sega Genesis on and unhooking the AV cables from the TV, so that my family could still watch TV even though I didn't turn off Sonic.

Man...you remember when Sonic was good? THOSE WERE THE DAYS.

[Curly Brace]

I remember leaving my Sega Genesis on and unhooking the AV cables from the TV, so that my family could still watch TV even though I didn't turn off Sonic.

Man...you remember when Sonic was good? THOSE WERE THE DAYS.

Hell yeah I remember. I remember when Sonic and Mario really were console rivals neck and neck.

[Darth GourryGN]

Sometimes I have a hard time in newer games because the solution to the problem at hand is TOO simple.

I'm looking for hidden panels, analyzing the order of the colors and markings on the wall, killing every enemy, etc. when all I have to do is WALK TO THE OTHER DOOR IN THE ROOM.

[cobaltstarfire]

I remember Sonic 2's nasty habit of hanging up on the hilltop zone. >(

[Hawkwing]

I can answer this in one word. Patience.

Another word would be time.

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle games were a testament to that also.

[DusK]

Oh, God. TMNT for NES was brutal. I still play it every now and then and it's ridiculous.

[Nekofrog]

I don't understand how people think Zelda 2 is difficult.

It's my favorite Zelda game, and I've been playing it since the day it came out.

To this day, I can sit down and beat it like it's nothing, and still find an extreme amount of fun in doing so.

The only thing that's "hard" is the final temple.

[Curly Brace]

I don't understand how people think Zelda 2 is difficult.

It's my favorite Zelda game, and I've been playing it since the day it came out.

To this day, I can sit down and beat it like it's nothing, and still find an extreme amount of fun in doing so.

The only thing that's "hard" is the final temple.

Agreed wholeheartedly!

[Darklink42]

I just didn't like the game play. It wasn't even that it was different than the first. Something about the way it was put together never really meshed with me and I had to beat many years later on the GBA.

[SoulinEther]

For the Legend of Zelda and several other popular NES games, there was a black strategy guide that EVERYONE had at the time. I can't remember the name of the book though. It was a bible that was well worn by the time I was done with it.

You mean this?
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l147/SoulinEther/nintendoplayersguide.jpg
Poor photo quality courtesy of my blackberry in the dark.

I was born in '90 but my first console was an NES.. usually if I was stuck somewhere my brother would help me, or I'd just sit at it until I could figure out the challenges. ZOMG, figuring things out, what the hell is that? It seems like none of the new games have challenges anymore, or stuff that they don't tell you.

Even some old games are like this, too. I just finished FFIV through an emulator (SNES, making it FFIV easy-type/FFII) and my monitor doesn't have good contrast when looking at it from below. When I got through a bit of the game and saw that the paths through walls and stuff were clearly marked by lighter-shaded tiles, I was surprised. Where's the challenge in that? Especially toward the end (where I had never been before), the challenge of the game wasn't figuring out where I needed to go next, but how to survive while getting there. Grinding took up most of my time.

If those paths weren't clearly indicated, my priority would have been figuring out where to go to get myself to the end of the game. Walking around in the moon core would have given me enemies to kill and thus levels while still feeling like I'm doing something purposeful.

So this isn't a new phenomenon, but it sure has been disappointing. I've been playing games more for the story than anything, and just for the sake of seeing how the game ends rather than for the challenge the game (doesn't) bring(s).

[Sinewav]

how the hell did you beat those old games on the NES

those games are so hard

battletoads is impossible without save states

the first zelda is impossible without a guide (the 2nd quest at least)

i can't imagine kids not GIVING UP for several of these games

HOW DID YOU DO IT

I didn't. I just played the first few levels over and over until I got bored and decided to play something else.

[yangfeili]

It's funny you mention Battletoads. Now, I've never actually beaten the whole game, largely because I get kind of bored with it after a while. But as a kid, I remember that hover bike level was murder. I spent hours trying to get through it, and I usually used the warp in the middle rather than seeing it through to the end.

I found a copy of the game a few years ago. Popped it in without having played the game for... gosh, fifteen years, maybe? Anyway, I beat the entire hover bike stage with only one death -- and that was due to a premature jump rather than hitting a wall. I think to myself "Wait, what? That's it?"

[LuketheXjesse]

I remember the first time I finished Capcom's "Disney's Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers" on the nes with my sister, it made me realized how awesome coop gaming can be. Playing the game alone seemed practically impossible; not to mention not as much fun.

Ha, I grew up with that game. Pretty damn hard, but nowhere near impossible.

battletoads is impossible without save states

Yeah, dead on. Shitty ending too (per all Battletoads games)

[Kizyr]

Pretty much what's already been said: tons of practice. Legend of Zelda wasn't too bad; I did have to use a guide for the 2nd quest, though (too much trial-and-error).

A few of the tougher games I managed to beat:
- Kung Fu [NES] (2 times through*)
- Karate Kid II [NES] (AVGN overestimated how difficult this was)
- Metal Storm [NES]
- Bart vs the Space Mutants [NES]
- Paperboy [NES] (could get all houses on the block to subscribe, too)
- Star Fox [SNES] ("easiest" path only, which was still damn tough)
- Sewer Shark [Sega CD]

* Kung Fu, like a lot of games then, had you go through the game once at 'normal' difficulty, then a second time at a harder difficulty. Zelda was like this, just more epic.

A lot of platform games (Mario 1-3, Super Mario World, Sonic 2-3, etc.) I don't consider as difficult, given just a bit of practice and all the continues/saves/warps you'd get. The ones on the list above, plus tons more that I never was able to beat, are on another level... the ones that really required a lot of practice to get good enough to beat. KF

[Salluz]

Without cheats or save states, Battletoads is impossibly IMO.

I would say that the only thing that allowed me to beat games like Mario 3 was having too much time on my hands. I'd take turns with a (girl)friend throughout the whole game, keeping lives and almost never dying.

Yes, there's muscle memory and there's also a strong photographic memory, which I would say is personal.

[SoulinEther]

I'd take turns with a (girl)friend throughout the whole game,It seems like there are fewer games these days that let you do that. Or that people would be willing to give up (or pick up)..

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I don't understand how people think Zelda 2 is difficult.

It's my favorite Zelda game, and I've been playing it since the day it came out.

To this day, I can sit down and beat it like it's nothing, and still find an extreme amount of fun in doing so.

The only thing that's "hard" is the final temple.

But wasn't the music for the Great Temple epic?

[SciRe]

I think I'm echoing a lot of what as already been said at this point.

It think it comes down to how much time we had on our hands. I beat a lot of these games (never played battletoads believe it or not),by virtue of the fact that i was a little kid and had nothing better to do with my time. I could sit there and work on them, get the muscle memory down, and memorize the patterns the games were built around. The last of those probably being the most important.

Now, I usually feel cheated by most games becasue they aren't challenging enough (with a number of notable exceptions).

though, to this day Spelunker continues to be the bane of my existance

[Toadofsky]

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/moondizzlepi/yoshi.jpg

I hope you had fun at Soda Lake...

That picture will haunt me forever....

Because I've done that... :cry:

[Curly Brace]

That picture will haunt me forever....

Because I've done that... :cry:

Pretty sure we've ALL done that x_x

[Gario]

Pretty sure we've ALL done that x_x

Yeah well, that green bastard deserved it somehow... I'll justify it someday, 'cause if I don't I'll suffer from severe guilt for the rest of my days.

If anyone really wants to know difficult, forget Battletoads. There are some really insanely difficult (and obscure) games out there that just don't get any attention. Look up the game Amagon, for example - insanely difficult (not for any of the right reasons, either). That is a game that will haunt me for the rest of my days, as I know I will never, ever be able to beat it.

I shit you not, that game was insane. Seriously, what game gives you very limited bullets that don't reload at the end of a level or when you die? Messed up shit, right there...

[Nicole Adams]

If it makes you feel any better, I still can't beat the hover bike stage in Battletoads. I think I tense up too much. I'm not that great of a gamer anyway. :-P

[Red9]

Anyone besides me beat battletoads WITHOUT cheating?

[Kizyr]

Look up the game Amagon, for example - insanely difficult (not for any of the right reasons, either). That is a game that will haunt me for the rest of my days, as I know I will never, ever be able to beat it.

I shit you not, that game was insane. Seriously, what game gives you very limited bullets that don't reload at the end of a level or when you die? Messed up shit, right there...
But, it let you use your gun as a club after you ran out of bullets! Though if it ever got to that point, you may as well reset the game.

I don't think I ever made it past the first level in that one. KF

[Salluz]

Pretty sure we've ALL done that x_x
For some odd reason that picture scared the hell out of me when I first saw it.

I can beat the level with or without Yoshi, and when I have him I don't need to sacrifice him. Well, I did the first time 'cuz I was scared.

Yeah well, that green bastard deserved it somehow... I'll justify it someday, 'cause if I don't I'll suffer from severe guilt for the rest of my days.
My excuse: "bitch wouldn't let me shoot my damn fireballs!" No, that's probably untrue. "Uh, he was too damned heavy!" Naw, not really. "Fucker can't eat Bonzai Bill! There we go.

[Curly Brace]

For some odd reason that picture scared the hell out of me when I first saw it.

I can beat the level with or without Yoshi, and when I have him I don't need to sacrifice him. Well, I did the first time 'cuz I was scared.


My excuse: "bitch wouldn't let me shoot my damn fireballs!" No, that's probably untrue. "Uh, he was too damned heavy!" Naw, not really. "Fucker can't eat Bonzai Bill! There we go.

I am sad to admit that it took me a few tries before I realized Yoshi could be used to make it ridiculously easy. Trying to do it without killing green bro was frustrating. XD

[Gario]

But, it let you use your gun as a club after you ran out of bullets! Though if it ever got to that point, you may as well reset the game.Oh yeah, you know what I'm talkin' about... My older brother actually got to the fourth level, back in the day, but after almost a year of investment he just said 'Fuck that shit!' and never touched the game again. I don't know if a legit run of that game is even humanly possible (I owned a strategy guide video tape - you all know what I'm talking about, right? - and it actually said the game was impossible without a slow motion controller... What the hell kind of strategy guide is that?!).

Anyone besides me beat battletoads WITHOUT cheating? I'm currently working on beating Contra without cheating (got to level 7 yesterday, woot), but I can assure you Battle Toads is on my list somewhere - someday I'll be able to make that claim.

"bitch wouldn't let me shoot my damn fireballs!"

Thanks, I'll use that to alleviate my guilt.

[megadave]

Beaten Battletoads without cheating? I used the warps and I beat the shit out of those birds in the tunnel to get extra lives. God I wish I still had that game. So damn fun. I like Battletoads and Double Dragon even more.

As for Contra, I have beaten the first two Contras without even dying. If you practice Contra enough you will get so good at it that only coop mode will really have a chance at defeating you. Contra 3 usually takes a couple continues on the normal mode, and I haven't beaten it on the hard mode yet. I'm looking forward to Contra Rebirth. It better be at least as mean as the first game.

Does anybody here like the Monkey Ball games? Those can get ridiculously difficult.

[Reaif]

I used to play Super Mario Kart endlessly. At one point, Rainbow Road at 150cc wasn't hard enough, so I would play the game via the reflection in a glass window. That certainly spiced things up, for a while at least, until you get used to the reversed-ness of it. I tried playing that game again the other day, and I was having a pretty hard time. I no longer have the paths memorized for the (as always) 2nd and 3rd placers, so I couldn't just lay bananas where Princess would always hit them.

[Salluz]

I like Battletoads and Double Dragon even more.
The one on SNES? The best. Once you get to stage 4 it's hard. I've beaten it once with some sort of luck and kicked ass for the rest of the game.

I am sad to admit that it took me a few tries before I realized Yoshi could be used to make it ridiculously easy.Yeah, b/c he eats the koopas and the jumping style is a bit more sturdy and timely (Yoshi's size) than Mario himself.

Does anybody here like the Monkey Ball games? Those can get ridiculously difficult.I'm not a fan but it's a bitch!

[Strike911]

How did we beat games?

Well, it was a different time, definitely, but the latest gaming magazines and strategy guides were much more important. You couldn't find cheat codes or maps or faqs ANYWHERE (much less previews for new games coming out!). It wasn't until the Playstation 1 and N64 showed up that the internet really had information on games.

I remember being a kid looking forward to the latest game mags to see what new stuff was coming out, and a lot of times the tips they offered in the mags were valuable. It was fun to get those magazines every month just because they were a cornucopia of information. You can't really relate to that these days, at all, because the internet. For the last 10-15 years, the internet has just made all that information available at all times.

Magazines... print. They were a bigger deal back in the day.

HELL, gaming kiosks in department stores were a big source of information. Does anyone remember those giant SNES kiosks in toys r us and stuff that you could press the buttons and get previews and commercials of games coming out? OCcasionally they'd give tips, and a lot of the times it was common knowledge, but occasionally they had a nugget of info. It was weird in that time, really. Game companies really had much more control of who had their information then...

Games weren't instant gratification like they are now. They were more like something you'd put time into and if you were good you could maybe finish the game. The more I think about, the more I think the emergence of the internet might be the source. The internet really has pushed a lot of people to desire instant gratification... just because inherently, the internet is exactly what you want exactly when you need it. Same with cell phones and Tivos and stuff. All this information and entertainment right at your fingertips. People want games they can experience right now, and it's a given that they should see the ending of the story if they stick to it.

If anything, younger gamers today want the option of putting time into a game to master it IF and only if they choose to. They expect to finish a game and not be a master, but that wasn't necessarily the case back in the day, when you had a really steep difficult right from the beginning.

Really, most of those old games were just bad game design, but we all really didn't have the awareness of what good and bad game design was, just because video games were still such a new form of a media. It was still in its transition from an arcade medium, where you played for points into a storytelling medium where you played for the experience and the story.

It's all just a transition. Games like contra had their time back in the day because it was right for that moment in time.

/yacking

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I still remember when we got the NES players guide with our renewed subscription to Nintendo Power in '92. I remember getting the 50th issue with Mickey's Magical Quest and that contest for designing robot masters for the next Mega Man game, which was VI at that point. I didn't have a Nintendo Power Subscription again until '98 I think(last issue I ever owned was the issue with Castlevania on the cover... January '99 I think).

Back then, they WERE a valuable source of info. Hell, I didn't even have the ability to look up my first FAQ until FFVIII in late '99. Point is, I agree that the internet has really changed the dynamic of things. Even up to the N64 days, it was all about mastery and word of mouth. Now we're pretty much on the verge of games that play themselves.

[Curly Brace]

I still remember when we got the NES players guide with our renewed subscription to Nintendo Power in '92. I remember getting the 50th issue with Mickey's Magical Quest and that contest for designing robot masters for the next Mega Man game, which was VI at that point. I didn't have a Nintendo Power Subscription again until '98 I think(last issue I ever owned was the issue with Castlevania on the cover... January '99 I think).

Back then, they WERE a valuable source of info. Hell, I didn't even have the ability to look up my first FAQ until FFVIII in late '99. Point is, I agree that the internet has really changed the dynamic of things. Even up to the N64 days, it was all about mastery and word of mouth. Now we're pretty much on the verge of games that play themselves.

OMG I remember that! I remember memorizing the Battletoads maps for the fast missions jumping and dodging obstacles. That was way back in the early 90s though.

[LuketheXjesse]

Anyone ever beat Double Dragon III without a game genie?

Crazy, I tells ya...

[friendlyHunter]

Really, most of those old games were just bad game design, but we all really didn't have the awareness of what good and bad game design was, just because video games were still such a new form of a media. It was still in its transition from an arcade medium, where you played for points into a storytelling medium where you played for the experience and the story.

Hold the phone... you're not implying that making games difficult is "bad game design", are you? I've yet to play Shadow of the Colossus, but imagine how un-engaging the experience would be if the game was as EASY as most games today. Several games I've played I feel have a weak story BECAUSE they are easy - most notably Windwaker and Twilight Princess, because the story revolves around a kid who single-handedly defeats countless enemies and bosses and the greatest villain in Hyrule's history, WITH HARDLY ANY EFFORT AT ALL. That's one reason why comparatively harder games like Ocarina of Time are remembered so fondly - the likely chance and the fear of actually LOSING was a major part of the experience.

Please correct me if I misunderstood your post o_o

[Tables]

I'm young and I suck at video games, so all you crazy people who beat Battletoads and Ninja Gaiden and all that are way beyond me. I couldn't even beat Contra 4 on Normal :<

The classic Mega Man games though are doable challenges for me. 2 never ever gets old.

My greatest gaming achievement is probably beating I Wanna Be The Guy on Hard, but that doesn't even count since it was made after 1990 :tomatoface:
Random anecdote

[yangfeili]

Hold the phone... you're not implying that making games difficult is "bad game design", are you? I've yet to play Shadow of the Colossus, but imagine how un-engaging the experience would be if the game was as EASY as most games today. Several games I've played I feel have a weak story BECAUSE they are easy - most notably Windwaker and Twilight Princess, because the story revolves around a kid who single-handedly defeats countless enemies and bosses and the greatest villain in Hyrule's history, WITH HARDLY ANY EFFORT AT ALL. That's one reason why comparatively harder games like Ocarina of Time are remembered so fondly - the likely chance and the fear of actually LOSING was a major part of the experience.


This is interesting, because I've said something similar with a bit of a twist: there are a lot of games now which are absurdly easy because they think they have a great story, and difficult gameplay would serve as an obstacle to presenting this "brilliant" story to the player. Final Fantasy is a good example of a particularly flagrant offender.

Regardless, I think Strike911 was trying to point out the difference between games with carefully crafted difficulty VS games which are difficult because of crappy controls, poor balance, or they just spam enemies everywhere in a nonsensical manner (such as the classic "unavoidable enemy spawns right in front of you while you're in the middle of jumping over a hole" gag.) In other words, a game can be difficult due to EITHER good or bad design, with the resulting experience either being "tough but rewarding" as opposed to "obnoxious and frustrating."

[aubrey]

You mean this?

Yep! That is exactly what I meant. I haven't seen a copy of that book for almost 20 years! I'm impressed that you have one on hand.

With name in hand, I was able to procure a digital copy of the book and further go back down memory lane.

It even mentions the Konami Code in the section for Gradius. I bet that is how everyone came to know it.

Thanks for the pic!

-Aubrey

[bananabomberman]

how the hell did you beat those old games on the NES

those games are so hard

battletoads is impossible without save states

the first zelda is impossible without a guide (the 2nd quest at least)

i can't imagine kids not GIVING UP for several of these games

HOW DID YOU DO IT

Some games have save states built in (the code thingies) But you have to have good handwriting or else you'll lose your file forever... again... And ya. pretty much persistence or play short/quick games =]

[DusK]

Anyone ever beat Double Dragon III without a game genie?

Crazy, I tells ya...
I couldn't get into that game. I dunno what was wrong with it, but it didn't have that same feel the first two had. I don't remember it being particular hard, though. What I played of it, anyway.

[Nec5]

Anyone ever beat Double Dragon III without a game genie?
Yes. It's not too bad if you play conservatively. Marian is a bitch and her levitation handjob can cause you to get stuck on the ceiling forever(an annoying bug that ruins all the work you put into it).

I have yet to meet anyone that's beaten Disk 2 of Dragon's Lair for the c64. The final mudmen stage is wacky; what the hell were you supposed to do there?

[friendlyHunter]

I Wanna Be The Guy
That's the game that's all about pure memorization, right? Was playing and beating that game actually fun, or was it just "Oh man I'm glad THAT's over!". I do love difficult games, but some take it to the point of being extremely repetitive and dull and bad.



there are a lot of games now which are absurdly easy because they think they have a great story, and difficult gameplay would serve as an obstacle to presenting this "brilliant" story to the player.
That's how I feel too for many newer games. With RPGs I want get to the end of the game, but I also don't want to waste my time doing battles that are boringly easy or frustratingly hard. I had to stop playing Breath of Fire (the GBA port) because the gameplay was just SOO tedious - the fights were too often and too easy and too repetitive and waaaay too unnecessarily slow, and the "puzzles" were arbitrary and dumb so I'd often get stuck (especially when travelling/fighting is so tedious). At the same time, if the fights were too hard instead of too easy, I might be just as frustrated. My point is the fights were boring and time-consuming and after a while became unbearable.

On the other end of the spectrum, I've heard Mother 3 has phenomenally good RPG combat that's fun (and of course funny) and doesn't detract from the story. I've played Earthbound though and it certainly has fun and interesting combat that adds an incredible amount to the experience.

You have to strike a balance between being too easy and being too hard. Unfortunately, for games to have a wide appeal these days they make the game far too easy for my tastes. That's why more games need DIFFICULTY OPTIONS. For example, Twilight Princess's combat system is certainly capable of being difficult - the Cave of Ordeals is proof - and the fact that there is no option to make the game harder confuses me. I played through it the first time without getting any heart containers (only heart pieces), and it was still way too easy up until Ganondorf. And I find it weird that after beating Mario Galaxy you unlock Luigi - and he makes the game even EASIER! Why would anyone want the game to be easier AFTER they've already mastered it?? THAT is flawed game design right there.


Regardless, I think Strike911 was trying to point out the difference between games with carefully crafted difficulty VS games which are difficult because of crappy controls, poor balance, or they just spam enemies everywhere in a nonsensical manner (such as the classic "unavoidable enemy spawns right in front of you while you're in the middle of jumping over a hole" gag.) In other words, a game can be difficult due to EITHER good or bad design, with the resulting experience either being "tough but rewarding" as opposed to "obnoxious and frustrating."
Yeah, that would make sense. But a lot of old games take the best of both worlds. Take Ninja Gaiden 1-3 for the NES, where the gameplay is all about cheapness - near the end of the first one, it felt like the game engine was not capable of making the game harder by normal means, so the level designers pulled off every cheap trick imaginable XD
Ninja Gaiden 1 for me was VERY tough but rewarding, especially when I finally beat it. Yet it also felt like one of the cheapest and most "unfair" games I'd ever played.
Ninja Gaiden 2 I gave up on because there was too much clutter on the screen for me to play properly (all those flashing ghost-Ryus were distracting as hell, and I didn't find them that helpful either!)
Ninja Gaiden 3 I've yet to finish, but I feel it's the strongest of the 3 titles... it requires more skill than the first, but less millisecond-timing "perfection" skill, less memorization (or maybe the rooms are just easier to remember because they're more interesting?), and is a little less repetitive (different things tend to happen each time I play a level or boss, so it's more exciting to play and watch).

But I can totally understand that these games are NOT for everyone. And an "easy version" of NES Ninja Gaiden would just be a generic platformer with hilariously dated cutscenes ^__^

[LuketheXjesse]

I couldn't get into that game.

You shouldn't! It's a horrible game! I struggled to beat it anyway though out of pure stubbornness.

[Gario]

I don't care what people say - Silver Surfer was an amazingly awesome game. Hard as hell, but I finally beat it.

Thank god the music was epic for that thing.

[ZealPath]

I'll never forget how I had no idea the second quest in Zelda 1 even existed until I picked up this paperback hint book for various popular NES games called "How to Win at Nintendo Games" by Jeff Rovin. None of my friends who had the game knew it existed either, so it was pretty cool for a while, essentially finding a whole new half of the game to play through.

I think I'm on board with anyone saying it's the internet that's made the difference. Today, we can figure out whatever we want, at any time, for any game, as long as we don't mind spoiling it. Back then, it was keep plugging away, and trying weird shit, until you figure it out.

Not like we had anything better to do anyway, game purchases were few and far between (at least for me and most of my friends at the time), so you'd spend months with some game that could probably be finished in hours, except a) they were usually unforgiving and difficult, and b) I didn't get to spend as much time playing games back then thanks to things like school, and parents.

I will also never forget how in another of Jeff Rovin's books, for the SNES, he falsely assumed that the bird boss towards the end of Lagoon was the final boss, and ended his guide after it, presumably since that boss was such a pain in the ass that he never actually killed it. Well you were wrong Jeff, you were wrrrrrrroooooooooooongggggg.

[SoulinEther]

i've checked "How to Win at Nintendo Games" out from the library.

yeah. A library. It's a lot like the internet, just smaller and dustier... with the same random creeps that make you uncomfortable.

[Curly Brace]

Does anyone remember when they used to make those small books for kids, about 150 pages or so, based off popular old Nintendo games like Metal Gear and Super Mario Bros. 3? I was surprised to find those in my library in Africa (Dakar, Senegal), since gaming systems themselves were a little rare out there.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

You mean those "choose your own adventure" books?

I got a few for free when i was a kid just 'cause the lady at the counter(or girl) thought I was adorable. :-P

Hurray free stuff!

[Gario]

My parents went to a library a few years ago and found an old Nintendo guide (I'll get the name of it later...) sitting in a 'take home for free' box, so they pulled it out and wrapped it up for my birthday two years ago. They certainly got a good laugh for it, but I read it out of shear scientific curiosity.

It's funny that people would have payed about 30$ for that source of information (the information wasn't even that helpful)... shit, 21 years ago (1988 - Megaman 2 was considered 'brand new' in that guide). Wow, that makes me feel a bit old, the fact that I can remember those days, at all.

[BooDidley7]

And an "easy version" of NES Ninja Gaiden would just be a generic platformer with hilariously dated cutscenes ^__^

Eh, for my money NES Ninja Gaiden still has a better story, and is more cinematic than the newer ones, which feel like de facto cliches and nothing.

For the record, I never beat Battletoads on NES without a GG either. I think I/we (w/co-op) could manage to get to the 10th level or so with those giant gears, before running out of lives. After doing the run with a GG and seeing how much more insane it got, life seemed too short.

In some respect today's games feel more like they're meant just for consumption. I see the merit in having a great experience that lasts only 8-10 hours, but if there's no real reason to touch it again afterwards, like say a decent multiplayer or high replay worth, it kinda feels like a waste of $60.

On the playground, it used to be a badge of honor to say, "I beat that game". Now, everyone can crawl through most games. Better for sales, and widening the audience I suppose, but the prestige is gone, for better or worse.

You know it's funny, it occurred to me the other day while encountering a Rage Quitter in fighting game online, in the arcades, when you got your ass handed to you in SFII (or whatever) by someone doing some cheap bullshit you couldn't figure out or was exceptionally good, he didn't just bruise your ego, he just effectively stole your 50 cents and gave it to Capcom. You actually lost money, and were probably more civil about it rather than making a scene. Although, some people did.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Off topic but since you just reminded me, have we ever had a game genre thread? I'm pretty sure like a year ago we had a 2D fighters thread or something.

We need to bring that shit back.

[Winter's Wings]

Back a couple pages, we were talking about why things are different now...and this is kind of a spill-over from another thread in Community at the moment (the Post-Wii Gaming "Are casuals bad?" thing), but stick with me for a second.

Way back when, video games were a new thing, and sort of had a niche market. I'm willing to bet that many of you here who have nostalgia about the "good old days", also either had a local arcade they were allowed to go to as kids, or parents that loved (or at least tolerated) video games. People creating video games didn't really have to cater to anyone, because they had this steady market of people that would always consume their merchandise. In addition, the technology was fairly limiting, and we didn't really have much in the way of games to compare with to create a "standard".

This is also the same kind of thing that happened in the computer industry. Way back when, nobody cared about how easy the GUI was - or even if there *was* a GUI. People who wanted to use computers were those who truly had a spot in their heart for the technology, and they'd use it no matter what. There were only so many real options for software/operating systems, and again...no real standards.

What's happened with gaming in the past 10 years, is exactly what's happened with the computer in the past 15-20 years. *EVERYONE* has a computer now. I haven't met a single person at my university that does not own a computer -- and even if someone doesn't, we have a huge open use lab in our library with over 200 machines to pick from. Makers of software and operating systems now have to cater to a VERY wide audience. Trust me...I work at our IT Helpdesk. I know. >.>

The "undoing" of the classic gaming metaphor, is that we all loved video games so much, we tried to share it with everyone. By doing so, we've helped make video games one of the primary sources of entertainment alongside television. Now, with the expanding audience, we've now got fans of video games that don't fit the "typical" mold of a gamer. This is at once fantastic (I certainly want everyone to enjoy games as much as I do), and terrible (the likelihood of "classic" gaming coming back full-force is basically nil).

So now, we have games like Super Mario Galaxy, that try to cater to both new and old players by having the entire first half of the game ridiculously easy, and then managing to make the final few levels actually challenging (then going right back to easy mode after that >.<). But at least it even tries - other games these days just forgo the actually challenging bits, because that's not what sells games anymore.

My solution?

more games need DIFFICULTY OPTIONS

[Drack]

how the hell did you beat those old games on the NES

those games are so hard

battletoads is impossible without save states

the first zelda is impossible without a guide (the 2nd quest at least)

i can't imagine kids not GIVING UP for several of these games

HOW DID YOU DO IT
When you're a kid, you have huge amounts of time and patience, since you don't see yourself as having other things to do than play your (probably limited) game collection.

I beat a lot of hard NES games as a kid.

Never beat Marble Madness though, as you had to be perfect all the way through, merely passing the beginning stages is a sure way to lose on the later ones (leftover time carries over).

[Kizyr]

I just remembered another really difficult game, although not as old: Panzer Dragoon (Saturn)
I used to be able to beat that not only on Difficult, but on the Expert mode that you had to input a code to get.

I'll never forget how I had no idea the second quest in Zelda 1 even existed until I picked up this paperback hint book for various popular NES games called "How to Win at Nintendo Games" by Jeff Rovin.
I actually had that book! It might still be at my mother's place at the back of some cabinet... I'm gonna have to look for it the next time I visit...

And to continue the nostalgia:
Does anyone remember when they used to make those small books for kids, about 150 pages or so, based off popular old Nintendo games like Metal Gear and Super Mario Bros. 3?
I had about 4-5 of the Mario Bros. CYOA books. Man, those were fun... little puzzles and everything, certain choices depended on if you were able to pick up power-ups or a certain number of coins earlier in the story... It was even better than the Super Mario Brothers Super Show.

Never beat Marble Madness though, as you had to be perfect all the way through, merely passing the beginning stages is a sure way to lose on the later ones (leftover time carries over).
At Katsucon this year, they had an original Marble Madness arcade cabinet set up. After playing that the entire weekend (we were making more of a commotion than the guys playing SF2), I went back and played the original NES version... and got to the last level on the first try. I only did that once back when I first had the game. (I only had, like, 15 seconds so I couldn't make it, but still.)

So, yeah, the arcade version is even harder than the NES one. KF

[Gario]

I have an anthology book of the Mario comics (taking the 'best of the best' or something). Those are freaking weird.

On the playground, it used to be a badge of honor to say, "I beat that game". Now, everyone can crawl through most games. Better for sales, and widening the audience I suppose, but the prestige is gone, for better or worse.

Damnit, the prestige is obviously still there, somewhat - what are we doing in this thread if the prestige wasn't there anymore? It just applies to the older games, is all.

[Drack]

At Katsucon this year, they had an original Marble Madness arcade cabinet set up. After playing that the entire weekend (we were making more of a commotion than the guys playing SF2), I went back and played the original NES version... and got to the last level on the first try. I only did that once back when I first had the game. (I only had, like, 15 seconds so I couldn't make it, but still.)

So, yeah, the arcade version is even harder than the NES one. KF
Oh snap, did your cabinet use a joystick, or did it use the original (and hilarious) trackball?

[k-wix]

how the hell did you beat those old games on the NES

those games are so hard

battletoads is impossible without save states

the first zelda is impossible without a guide (the 2nd quest at least)

i can't imagine kids not GIVING UP for several of these games

HOW DID YOU DO IT

I could never beat battletoads, but i remember beating zelda :P just played the crap out of it. The original Punchout was another really, really tough one, I couldn't beat Tyson until i was like.. 18? I beat him once. Never again.

[BooDidley7]

Damnit, the prestige is obviously still there, somewhat - what are we doing in this thread if the prestige wasn't there anymore? It just applies to the older games, is all.

I can't imagine too many groups of 10-year olds on a playground debating how hard NES Contra or Ninja Gaiden are nowadays.

[Gario]

I can't imagine too many groups of 10-year olds on a playground debating how hard NES Contra or Ninja Gaiden are nowadays.

I can sure imagine a bunch of 20+ year olds bragging about their NES accomplishments to this day, though :lol:.

[BooDidley7]

I can sure imagine a bunch of 20+ year olds bragging about their NES accomplishments to this day, though :lol:.

Haha yeah. Unfortunately that kinda means we're a dying breed so to speak.

[Dj Mokram]

Unfortunately that kinda means we're a dying breed so to speak.

I can sure imagine a bunch of dinosaurs bragging about their NES accomplishments to this day, though :lol:.

Fixed for you Gario. :mrgreen:

[TheSnowStorm]

Help from my older brother, learning pattens, and not having a new game.

[Strike911]

Hold the phone... you're not implying that making games difficult is "bad game design", are you? I've yet to play Shadow of the Colossus, but imagine how un-engaging the experience would be if the game was as EASY as most games today. Several games I've played I feel have a weak story BECAUSE they are easy - most notably Windwaker and Twilight Princess, because the story revolves around a kid who single-handedly defeats countless enemies and bosses and the greatest villain in Hyrule's history, WITH HARDLY ANY EFFORT AT ALL. That's one reason why comparatively harder games like Ocarina of Time are remembered so fondly - the likely chance and the fear of actually LOSING was a major part of the experience.

Please correct me if I misunderstood your post o_o

No, I'm certainly not saying difficult games are bad game design. Difficult games and overcoming the challenges they present are very important aspects of feeling accomplishment in video games. Overcoming obstacles and overcoming losses are an integral part of games as a medium.

What I am saying though is that a lot of early games were often difficult and frustrating because of poor design choices, and weren't calculated to allow the player to overcome them. Like look at the first Ninja Turtles game on the NES (it was riddled with things like this). Why put an enemy at the top of a ladder where its virtually impossible to avoid? That's not making the game difficult so much as it is just punishing the player for wanting to play the game.

Yeah, it made the game hard, but it was hard for the wrong reasons, and a lot of early games suffered from that, you know?

Things that were just limitations of older consoles I'm often more willing to forgive, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating. Like AI. I mean, that could be a large part of why games feel "easier" now. We can have more AI going on to further control what enemies a player encounters. Again, on the NES we had a lot of instances of taking out an enemy and having another one spawn to keep the heat on the player. The problem is that you'll hit an occasional bottleneck where if multiple enemies are on the screen, they'll spawn in places (or do things) that are difficult to avoid and are just plain unfair. The solution usually called for either being a complete master of the game or (for most people and newbies) just eating the damage.

Kids today that are playing old NES games are of course not going to like them, because games today ordinarily try to teach the player what they need to know to before they proceed. Too much hand holding people will complain about, but too little and then you get frustrated. It's a tight rope game, and even the best games of older generations taught the player (to a certain extent) what they needed to know before they ramped up the difficulty, its just that, again, in a lot of older games the bar was set at really frustratingly hard levels that makes enjoying the game difficult, until you know what you're doing.

I'm willing to forgive easiness of games though. Sometimes I just want an easy experience where I can sit down and play through a story, and other times I want something really intense and precise, offering a real challenge that I can fight my way through. I think the current state of the industry is one of trying to appeal to both people that want a challenge and people that want just a story (like an interactive movie), and what we've got on a whole is an imperfect compromise.

... so yeah. I like difficult games, but games that are needlessly difficult, not so much. :)

And you really should play Shadow of the Colossus. I wouldn't call it difficult by any means. A lot of the time the game points you right where you need to go. And when you get stuck it gives you hints. That said, the sense of exploration is really immersive. It's still a wonderful experience when combined with the music and sheer sense of epic adventure.

[XZero]

No, I'm certainly not saying difficult games are bad game design. Difficult games and overcoming the challenges they present are very important aspects of feeling accomplishment in video games. Overcoming obstacles and overcoming losses are an integral part of games as a medium.

If you look at Mega Man 9, you see an example of a difficult game that is very well designed. I would easily argue that its level design is on par with the older Mega Man titles.

I remember as a kid growing up in the mid-eighties to early-1990s, you'd sit there and play these things over and over looking for everything. Zelda 2 was a game that a friend and I sat there playing for hours on end trying to find all of the dungeons. The Fourth palace was particularly difficult to locate without guides or anything. Zelda games still keep me interested, but it's really just the side-quests like finding all of the heart pieces that make the games fun (they really aren't all that challenging any more).

I agree about the balance needed, though. Too much hand-holding makes for a boring experience. Not enough makes the game really frustrating. It's all about finding that happy medium. Nintendo is less consistent now, but on the whole, I would cite their Mario, Metroid, and Zelda series as generally good examples of the right balance.

[KieranCarden]

There are still some games I haven't beaten, like Ghosts and Goblins. The last time I tried to beat Blaster Master, I was near the last boss and the game froze, never to work again. I am still waiting for the right time, to execute my revenge. I still can't beat the first Ninja Gaiden without using continues.


I was never able to beat Blaster Master without using save states. The last time I played the game (ages ago) and didn't use any kind of save state or cheat, I got to world 8 and ended up stuck somewhere being constantly injured and couldn't get out in time :(

Star Tropics is still one of my favorite games today. Though (back then anyway) if you lost the manual you were screwed at one point in the game. There was a code on one of the pages you needed in order to start your submarine back up... so loosing the manual meant no more code 8O happened to me >.>

Just out of curiosity, did anyone ever play Robo Warrior? And if so, did you get as frustrated as I did trying to figure that game out? I eventually got the hang of it (still haven't beaten it though) but damn was that game hard.

[Curly Brace]

I beat Blaster Master with no save states, but it really took a while. Talking like two or three days leaving the Nintendo on while I went and handled my biz.

[Meteo Xavier]

I beat Blaster Master with no save states, but it really took a while. Talking like two or three days leaving the Nintendo on while I went and handled my biz.

You know those old NES machines were 3 or 4 ions away from being nuclear right? Do you have any idea how close you came to melting Knoxville down to the fake gold plating of the Sun Sphere?

[TheHands]

With a lot of the old games you honestly just didn't beat them. Or maybe that was just me. Armed with the turbo switch in the TG16, I only managed to beat a small handful of the games I had. Most of them were muscle memory and constant play to get as far as I did. Hard to say, really.

[Strike911]

There was a code on one of the pages you needed in order to start your submarine back up... so loosing the manual meant no more code 8O happened to me

Haha, oh man! I had almost forgot about those games that had hidden trivia questions that required the game's manual to play. lol. Copy protection my ass!

I specifically remember Street Fighter 2 for the PC doing that.... and so did the ancient EA racing game Indy 500: The Simulation. Man... what a load of crap that was. lol. haha.

Edit: I guess the last game I remember doing that was the original Metal Gear Solid making me check the back of my CD case.

Does anyone know any modern games doing this?

[Gario]

Yeah, Stunt Island did that - it was the only way to get into the game...

Wait, modern games? Modern games just aren't cool enough to incorporate manual trivia and quizzes :tomatoface:.

[Hyperion5182]

how the hell did you beat those old games on the NES

those games are so hard

battletoads is impossible without save states

the first zelda is impossible without a guide (the 2nd quest at least)

i can't imagine kids not GIVING UP for several of these games

HOW DID YOU DO IT

There were guides out almost as soon as the games were out honestly Nintendo was damned good about that. To my credit zelda castlevania 2 and many others were beaten without those guides simply because i just had those reflexes from Atari games.

[Curly Brace]

You know those old NES machines were 3 or 4 ions away from being nuclear right? Do you have any idea how close you came to melting Knoxville down to the fake gold plating of the Sun Sphere?

I lived in Africa at the time sugar. Does anyone remember that really annoying 'Bomberman' game where you played this crazy blue alien guy who really sucked at bombing and was constantly trying to get to the right side of the screen for gods only knows what reasons.

[Maruku]

as a kid, I found the quick pace of old games to be more fitting of my childish attention span. Also, I prefer the unrealistic looks of everything back then. It really put me into this fantasy world where I could imagine so many things. I would always think "man, what's beyond that ocean" in Zelda or "man I bet there's an extra, hidden, world in Mario 3" just because you could imagine these crazy scenarios. That really kept me playing the game. From there, it was mostly memorization. By the time I had beaten Ninja Gaiden, I had every single level memorized down to exactly when I would jump and slash. I could beat the game in 20-30 minutes without a continue and that was almost all memorization.

Personally, games nowadays don't hold my attention, part of that is 'cause of my busy schedule, but it's just not as fun to me because everything resembles reality now. Physics and stuff are cool in a game, but I just can't find myself getting immersed in the world anymore. Games like Shadow of the Colossus are the exception though; definitely sweet.

Plus, like one previous poster mentioned, there were no sweet gadgets back then and no internet. Once the sun went down and you couldn't go skateboard, ride your bike, and cause mischief, you were like "aww man... time to play some Solar Jetman" (which if anybody has been there, knows that is like punching yourself in the face with difficulty).

I miss the good ol' days haha.

[SoulinEther]

you were like "aww man... time to play some Solar Jetman" (which if anybody has been there, knows that is like punching yourself in the face with difficulty).

I could never get past that "level" after the 12th world... there's something seriously messed up about having the last (or nearly the last) part of a game be completely different in gameplay from the rest of the game.

[RETROMAN]

I have fond memories of the Commodore 64, but some of the games that were released on that system were just plain EVIL.

Waiting ten minutes for a game to load and then losing all your lives within thirty seconds of starting it (sometimes even requiring you to rewind the tape and load everything again if it was a multiload game) could drive the most patient of people insane.

Oh well, at least we were treated to some awesome SID tunes while waiting for the torture to start :)

[Palpable]

Does anybody here like the Monkey Ball games? Those can get ridiculously difficult.

These are the most recent games I've played that I'd put on a difficulty level with NES games. Getting the Master levels in the first game is damn hard and took me weeks, and the only way I'd have been able to beat the Master levels is with unlimited lives, which you are thankfully given. Master 3 took me upwards of 200 lives I think.

Then in Monkey Ball 2 I remember getting to the Master levels but giving up on some level near the end out of frustration, even having dozens of lives left. Yeah, just insane games.

[Avatar of Justice]

Is it just me or is Shinobi for the PS2 more like what Ninja Gaiden Xbox should have been if Ninja Gaiden Xbox had wanted to be a 3-D translation of the quick, hard as hell, platforming gameplay of Ninja Gaiden NES? I tried out the Ninja Gaiden Sigma demo and it just seemed like Devil May Cry with ninjas.

On a related note, I got in Ninja Gaiden III earlier this week making me the proud owner of the entire trilogy. I also got in Final Fantasy I for the NES as well. I've heard that it is the version to play if you want it to be fun, since the GBA version has been nerfed.

Does anybody else here still try to play games on a real NES/SNES instead of emulating? One of my gamer quirks is that I like to play games on the original hardware if at all possible. That's right, I have an NES plugged into an HDTV. They usually don't look too bad. You can E-bay most NES games for <$20. I recently played through Link's Awakening on a Game Boy and Super Game Boy. Damn, Game Boy's have shitty lighting.

[Kizyr]

Oh snap, did your cabinet use a joystick, or did it use the original (and hilarious) trackball?
Original trackball, all the way. That's why the 4-5 of us were all getting seriously into it. We also tried doing 2-player, but given how... animated we were, we kept running into one another (in person, not in the game).

The D-pad is just no substitute for the trackball, unfortunately...

Does anybody else here still try to play games on a real NES/SNES instead of emulating? One of my gamer quirks is that I like to play games on the original hardware if at all possible.
It might just be my imagination, but playing NES/SNES/Genesis games on the original hardware feels like it gets a lot better reaction time and control versus emulators. Since I mostly play RPGs, though, this isn't much of an issue. But it's really noticeable when playing, say, Mariokart or Starfox. KF

[Gario]

You can E-bay most NES games for <$20.Hell, that's nothing - my sister got an N64 game for 7 cents. It was some crappy wrestling game, but still - 7 cents. Of course, s&h was 2$, but that's still pretty amazing, hence why I don't emulate N64 games. They're just so cheap (except for Ogre Battle 64, but it was worth the 60$ getting it - the game is absolutely amazing).

[Cerrax]

Once you've reached the upper levels in Yar's Revenge as I did, everything else is child's play or uninteresting.

QF Fucking T.

Yar's Revenge is the shit.

Anyone remember Starmaster for the 2600? That game was bad ass. There were so many controls for the game that a joystick with one button wasn't enough. You had to use buttons on the console to run the game. The B/W-Color switch turned your map on and off, The Game Select switch ignited the hyperdrive. The difficulty toggles on the back switched the targeting computer on and off. It was freakin awesome to see the hardware used in such an unusual way. My dad kicked ass at that game.

[Nec5]

I have fond memories of the Commodore 64, but some of the games that were released on that system were just plain EVIL.

Waiting ten minutes for a game to load and then losing all your lives within thirty seconds of starting it (sometimes even requiring you to rewind the tape and load everything again if it was a multiload game) could drive the most patient of people insane.

Oh well, at least we were treated to some awesome SID tunes while waiting for the torture to start :)Just in case you do not know of it, RKO (http://remix.kwed.org/) has many excellent remixes of C64 songs.

QF Fucking T.

Yar's Revenge is the shit.

Anyone remember Starmaster for the 2600? That game was bad ass. There were so many controls for the game that a joystick with one button wasn't enough. You had to use buttons on the console to run the game. The B/W-Color switch turned your map on and off, The Game Select switch ignited the hyperdrive. The difficulty toggles on the back switched the targeting computer on and off. It was freakin awesome to see the hardware used in such an unusual way. My dad kicked ass at that game.Was that the one where you had to dock with a space station by lining up your crosshairs? That was a really fun game, but I was not very good at it. Or maybe I'm thinking of Star Control? I can't remember.

[Meteo Xavier]

You know what I've always wanted to do for the ultimate challenge in gaming?

Play two video games at the same time.

And not pussy out either.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I'd love to track down an N64, SNES and NES on ebay, but lack the funds currently and I'm afraid of the NES spontaneously exploding.

[Gario]

I'd love to track down an N64, SNES and NES on ebay, but lack the funds currently and I'm afraid of the NES spontaneously exploding.

I can't help you for the spontaneous exploding, but I found them to be pretty (http://cgi.ebay.com/NES-Nintendo-Entertainment-System-W-controller_W0QQitemZ230361758693QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZVideo_Games?hash=item35a2a17be5&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) cheap (http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Nintendo-Entertainment-System-SNES-system_W0QQitemZ120451837366QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVid eo_Games?hash=item1c0b7d2db6&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14), myself (http://cgi.ebay.com/NINTENDO-64-N64-SYSTEM-CONSOLE-2-CONTROLS-VIDEO_W0QQitemZ280376677234QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVide o_Games?hash=item4147c09372&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)...

You have no excuse - just get them.

[Level 99]

I'm ashamed to admit but I was never THAT GOOD at many games, especially for the NES. (Bear with me here, I've had memory issues for anything happening before I was 16 so, while I believe this is quite accurate, may be revised after asking my Mom about it later :tomatoface:)

Story-time again: Birthday, 1991. I got TMNT for the NES and, like most kids of that time, was just really excited to play with those shelled-heroes on my tv. Now, if you haven't played it, this game is not only quite different from the TV show, but INSANELY FRIGGIN' HARD FOR A 6 YEAR OLD. After breaking two, yes two, controllers for the system, Mommy thought it was time to get another game. While at Toys R' Us, I was distracted by this new shiny box that had a pixelated GAME GENIE logo on it. The "master your games" tagline was enough to sell me. Cue typical child pestering at toy store to get such-and-such toy. And thus began a life-long habbit of relying on the easy way out if games were too hard (exclude any two-player games, I wasn't that much of a douche).

So yes, way back when games were meant to be harder. I guess you could say the harder the game meant the longer you played it, and the longer you played it the better value it seemed to have to your parents/the game creator/the retail that sold it to you. I'm probably way off there, but the point is it's what people were used to. Nowadays, many more games focus on multiplayer, and the difficulty factor is lower due to either a lower attention span in general or any other number of factors one could claim. I would just take it as gaming's progress.

Example: Contra was a ridiculously hard game, despite a cheat code that made it much more beatable, was still a blast. Look at something like Vampire Rain now, with a large difficulty factor attributed to buggy design and terrible production decisions.

I know there were a number of topics I brought up that are debatable, but that's just my opinion on things.

[TheRedBob]

Games are generally easy now. There are still hard games, and most at least have harder difficulties...but games like Battletoads and Contra didn't have difficulties. You just pressed start and saw how far you could get.

It seems to me like achievements are a way to replace the "prestige" of beating older games. Everyone may have beaten Crackdown, but how many people can say that they found all of the agility orbs? That kind of thing.

It's not the same as beating Contra without dying a single time, but it's something, at least.

[Gario]

It's a little weird, but record yourself playing some difficult game that your pretty good at. You notice a lot of freaky limbic responsiveness shit going on, like when I watch myself play Contra I notice myself jumping between three to four bullets on different trajectories then ducking under a fifth bullet to get a clear shot off some dude.

I'm sure I didn't actually plan anything like that out, but due to a series of responses that went off in my head my fingers just went through the motions. Anyone notice that strange effect?

It only happens when your familiar with the game (or at least with the genre) - give it a shot :nicework:.

[DusK]

It seems to me like achievements are a way to replace the "prestige" of beating older games. Everyone may have beaten Crackdown, but how many people can say that they found all of the agility orbs? That kind of thing.
I wish they would've had an achievement system when I got every single piece of treasure in Spyro for PSOne. Nobody believes me. :(

[Gollgagh]

I wish they would've had an achievement system when I got every single piece of treasure in Spyro for PSOne. Nobody believes me. :(

I got every single piece of treasure in all 3 Insomniac Spyro games

nobody has disbelieved me yet

you probably just suck at convincing people

[DusK]

I got every single piece of treasure in all 3 Insomniac Spyro games

nobody has disbelieved me yet

you probably just suck at convincing people
Probably. :|