VGMix Revival [Archive] - OverClocked ReMix Forums

Latency

10-05-2009, 12:53 AM

I'm not sure how many former VG Mix regulars are on here, but I just thought I'd share that myself and another person are planning to revive VG Mix 2, from the ground up.

Ever since virt closed the site down nearly 3 years ago, many of us have anticipated it's return, but as time passed we realized more and more that the project was pretty much abandoned. The time has come for someone to pick up the torch and bring the site back again.

So, we're planning to code VG Mix 2 from the ground up, including everything that the original site had. We'll making sure it doesn't fall to the same fate by proper coding and extra security measures.

However, we need something from you. We plan to use the original design, but everything relating to it seems to be out of reach. The Internet Archive doesn't even have previous snapshots of the site, due to the current VG Mix X's CMS blocking URLs in the robots.txt.

So, if you have ANYTHING from the previous site, whether it be old saved pages, HTML code, CSS documents, images, or Javascript files, please let me know. We want to get started on this as soon as possible, and the more help we receiving in retrieving elements from the original site, the faster we can get it up.

We hope you're all on board with us to bring back something great!

Corran

10-05-2009, 01:50 AM

We've tried this before. If virt isn't on board with this (and giving you the files you need) then it probably isn't going to happen.

Have you tried contacting him?

Latency

10-05-2009, 02:28 AM

I've tried contacting virt on multiple occasions, at different times over the past three years, to no avail. We'll be happy to hand the site over to him when we finish, but unfortunately for now we're working on it without him.

Black Mage

10-05-2009, 03:11 PM

I have 150-ish remixes some properly labeled and tagged, others not so much, but that's about it.

I'd certainly like to see the site get some life breathed back into it. I liked having both OCR and VGM as music sources.

Luck to ya!

Ray Falling

10-05-2009, 04:23 PM

As someone who doesn't know what VG Mix was/is: what does it offer and besides obviously VG mixes, what is it about?

Schwaltzvald

10-05-2009, 04:26 PM

As someone who doesn't know what VG Mix was/is: what does it offer and besides obviously VG mixes, what is it about?

It was just another alternative site to OCR back in the day, often leaning towards metal/rock from my time there though I may be off base... Found some great arrangements there too... Lately though DoD been something of a VGMix replacement imo...

liquid wind

10-05-2009, 04:43 PM

As someone who doesn't know what VG Mix was/is: what does it offer and besides obviously VG mixes, what is it about?

It focused more on artist development by reviewing and giving feedback, employing an RPG like system to give incentive to do so(how it was supposed to work), had an integrated WIP section, and was generally awesome. It was hacked and taken offline in 2006. It also had different guidelines than OCR so a lot of stuff(like 8+ minute mixes) that would have a difficult time making it here with the 6mb limit were uploaded there.

Given the shortcomings of VGMix2 though and what had been planned for 3, what would be the point of recoding 2 from the ground up? Wouldn't just...making VGMix3 be a more pragmatic option?(sorry if it's a stupid question I know nothing of website design)

Ramaniscence

10-05-2009, 05:10 PM

It was just another alternative site to OCR back in the day, often leaning towards metal/rock from my time there though I may be off base... Found some great arrangements there too... Lately though DoD been something of a VGMix replacement imo...

^ Incorrect.

It focused more on artist development by reviewing and giving feedback, employing an RPG like system to give incentive to do so(how it was supposed to work), had an integrated WIP section, and was generally awesome. It was hacked and taken offline in 2006. It also had different guidelines than OCR so a lot of stuff(like 8+ minute mixes) that would have a difficult time making it here with the 6mb limit were uploaded there.

^ More correct.

The most important thing about VGMix is that artists could freely posts songs as they pleased. There was no submission/approval system. With VGMix 1 it was just a huge list of songs, but by VGMix 2 they had implemented a rating system that broke the songs into tiers so that it was easier to find good songs and weed out the not-so-good ones.

Given the shortcomings of VGMix2 though and what had been planned for 3, what would be the point of recoding 2 from the ground up? Wouldn't just...making VGMix3 be a more pragmatic option?(sorry if it's a stupid question I know nothing of website design)

Agreed. VGMix was a great thing, but it had it's shortcomings as well. Rebuilding something similar is a great idea, but trying to rebuilt is exactly as it was would be, in my opinion, passing up a great opportunity to make a lot of improvement.

This is exactly what I had plan on doing myself. Making a spiritual successor to VGMix 2, in the absence of a real VGMix 3, and offering it up to virt and co. at it's completion, or at very least discussing it over drinks at MAGFest.

virt and the rest of the people over at VGMix have a very specific way of how they want to do things, and I'm not about to go dip in someone else's Koolaid, but as you've learned by this point they're not always the easiest to get a hold of. Not to mention finding backup ANYTHING of old VGMix, aside from the songs, is close to impossible.

I started working on a Mockup of "New VGMix 2," based on what I could remember from the old one, along with some linear notes I had thought up.

Screenshot:
http://dougarley.com/design/vgmixNew/vgmixMockupTb.jpg (http://dougarley.com/design/vgmixNew/vgmixMockup.jpg)

Level 99

10-05-2009, 05:26 PM

Rama, you sick sadistic bastard...how awesome looking is that mockup! IT'S JUST AS I REMEMBER IT!

Anyways, Rama nailed it in that it was the semi-opposite approach to quality control that OCR has. Instead of keeping quality high with evaluations, submissions, judges, and all that jazz, people could basically upload a song of theirs every two weeks or so (that's what I remember it being) and it would automatically get posted on the site. Of course, I don't believe you're allowed to upload songs that contained any other copyrighted works (example: I don't think the Snoop Dog/Kirby mashup would fly) or midirips+drums and the like. The songs would then get reviewed and given points, and end up in tiers ranging from Tier 1 - Stuff of Legends, all the way down to Tier 7. This itself had a couple of problems based on design, such as a song would sometimes not have any reviews and it would sit in Tier 4 forever, and that there were a LOT of people submitting who were just getting their musical foothold. I know there are at least a few OCR people who came over from VGMix after the site went down, and quite a few got started there since the submissions here had a different approach. There were WIP sections as well, but you knew that once you were personally done you could upload the song and not worry about it being posted up unless you infringed on those guidelines. You just had to be personally satisfied and also be able to weather the reviews.

It definitely provided a balance and alternative to OCR that was extremely healthy, but since it came down there really hasn't been anything to really take its place in that niche role...

Whatever happens, it's good to see VGMix interest is still there outside of DoD!

Edit: Should mention the reviews were done by any member of the VGMix community, not a select group within the members. Anyone with an account could review a song. The reviews themselves could also be given a thumbs-up or thumbs-down, if memory serves correctly...

Latency

10-05-2009, 07:50 PM

We definitely plan to impliment far more than what the original site had, and improve upon it's shortcomings. For now, our main focus is to get the site back up and running.

Speaking of features, I recall that no to long ago virt posted a huge VG Mix 3 FAQ on the main site a few years ago. Does anyone have a copy? It would definitely come in handy when we start development.

k-wix

10-05-2009, 08:41 PM

Corran

10-06-2009, 01:23 AM

By the way I didn't mean to come off as harsh, but I think an independent project like this is unlikely to get the widespread support VGMix had, because most of the members won't even know it's there (since you don't have the domain name obviously). So to me, a new VGMix can only work with the support of virt et al.

I do wish you luck and if you make something I'd check it out. I was a big contributor (20+ tunes, fairly high level from reviews) so I definitely want a new VGMix as much as anybody.

Dyne

10-06-2009, 01:39 AM

Latency

10-06-2009, 03:02 AM

I think it's a great idea. That said, I'm just curious how many people you plan on having undertake a project of this size. I mean, if you're going to build it from the ground up, you're in for a long development cycle depending on how many people you have, what everyone is doing, as well as their experience level with this kind of coding.

Actually, it's not as large as it may seem, in terms of coding. I've finished large scale backend systems by myself in less than a month, and this doesn't seem like it would be any more ambitious than ones I've done previously. Considering we'll have everything laid out in front of us in terms of features, and design layout to work with, this shouldn't take us too long. I currently have a project going at the moment, but it will be done within a few weeks so I'll be able to set aside a lot of time to focus completing this.

As for virt, I do hope he likes the final product, and hopefully he'll even help us out with restoring the old site's database to this one (including remixes.) If anyone is able to get a hold of him, please link him to this thread and perhaps he'll lend us a hand in turning this into the final what he intended VG Mix 3 to be.

Vilecat

10-06-2009, 12:47 PM

It also had different guidelines than OCR so a lot of stuff(like 8+ minute mixes) that would have a difficult time making it here with the 6mb limit were uploaded there.Like the "full game in one song" medleys from virt and goat for example. I still have Scourge of 1690 on my HD somewhere or my old PC, epic!

prophetik

10-06-2009, 01:54 PM

Like the "full game in one song" medleys from virt and goat for example. I still have Scourge of 1690 on my HD somewhere or my old PC, epic!

urgh, i miss all sixteen minutes of that. if you find it, can you up it somewhere? i truly miss that song.

Jewbei

10-06-2009, 01:55 PM

i was one of the VGMix regulars i really do miss the hell out of that site thats where i got my start from they had a great reviewers people like Corran, Rexy and Nec5 (i wonder what happend to Nec5??) Nec5 said to me on my second remix i had uploaded to that site it was my zelda links awakening remix it said:

"I encourage Jewbei to take more risk one of them is bound to pay off"

so every since that day ive been honing my skills and now im a ocrmixer and now im getting even more help in sharping my skills. so i really hope virt is willing to work with you in bringing it back or at least considering bringing the site back.

if youre out there reading this Nec5......thanks man

liquid wind

10-06-2009, 02:09 PM

urgh, i miss all sixteen minutes of that. if you find it, can you up it somewhere? i truly miss that song.

http://dod.vgmix.com/past/may05/goat-CV-Scourge-DoD.mp3

edit: I might have had the wrong one? this is 12 minutes...

LuketheXjesse

10-06-2009, 02:35 PM

Goat's 16 minute suite is Creeping Dusk. That song is his 12 minute one.

Both are straight up Castlevania mixes though. That guy loves his Castlevania...

OverCoat

10-06-2009, 03:50 PM

you can't get a hold of virt?

really?

well talk to him at magfest then, lol

Strike911

10-06-2009, 03:52 PM

I'll keep my eyes open on future developments.

ilp0

10-06-2009, 05:29 PM

I Wish I could offer something useful but I can't (though I have a good bunch of VGM2 remixes on my HD)...

The best of luck to your attempt! I really miss the athmosphere and all the RPG stuff back in VGM2...

SoulinEther

10-06-2009, 06:31 PM

urgh, i miss all sixteen minutes of that. if you find it, can you up it somewhere? i truly miss that song.

http://www.powergoat.com/page2.html

and, to maintain the flow of conversation in this post... i'm interested.

Skummel Maske

10-06-2009, 06:41 PM

I'm glad to see this initiative, and I hope it works out this time. I miss VGMix.

I've finally reached the web applications development section of my studies (which is what I've wanted to work with from the very start), so I've been thinking of trying something like this myself. If there's any need for novice skills anywhere, let me know ;)

There are many small sites with this concept starting up nowadays though. Is this going to crash with e.g. ThaSauce, or will all the sites fit together?

Vilecat

10-06-2009, 07:23 PM

http://www.powergoat.com/page2.html

and, to maintain the flow of conversation in this post... i'm interested.Yep it's the first song of that page.
I think I have most if not all the Castlevania songs from VGMix 2 and some more.

It was interesting and somewhat silly to find out that near the end, most of the Tier1 songs were YES'd on OCR a few weeks later. Some rare songs didn't either because the artist boycotted/just didn't submit or the songs didn't respect OCR's rules (like +6mb files).

I always saw VGMix as a very elaborated WIP forum that allowed you to upload your unfinished work for a while. Which reminds me... STRIKE911 DAMMIT WHEN ARE YOU GONNA FINISH/REWORK ON THAT GAME & WATCH REMIX!?!?!?!!

big giant circles

10-06-2009, 11:21 PM

I said MAAAAAAAAAAAAAN. I'M AN ADULT. I'M NOT A PART OF THE SYSTEM.

Txai

10-07-2009, 12:00 AM

So, if you have ANYTHING from the previous site, whether it be old saved pages, HTML code, CSS documents, images, or Javascript files, please let me know.

This is how the website looked like few days before it was taken down.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1967/465568.png

Alas, there are no more pictures.

Level 99

10-07-2009, 12:02 AM

I like pie. And I like remixes. And I like you, too.

The point here is that regardless of who or what did stuff when, the VGMix we remember is gone and that's something that, from the interest expressed by people in this thread thus-far, is something that needs changing. I'm not saying there aren't already a number of other quality sites for remixes, but the point of all this is that a) there is a demand for a site that ran similar to how VGMix2 did things b) there has been a lack of activity and progress towards reaching that goal as of the last few...years [not placing blame, just the fact-of-the-matter] and c) there is now some effort to change that, and some folks asking for possible help.

I definitely hope you get virt on-board at some point (or at the very least get ahold of him!), and that all your effort will pay-off as it seems like many would be thankful for it.

prophetik

10-07-2009, 12:50 AM

This is how the website looked like few days before it was taken down.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1967/465568.png

Alas, there are no more pictures.

holy shit, furby!

prophetik

10-07-2009, 01:27 AM

I agree that there is a need/want for a VGMix-like site because it really complimented OCR. Sure it acted sometimes as a "WIP" ground but there were also some people who almost exclusively posted there (like me). Personally, I think the best way to approach this would be to code up something as close to VGMix2 as possible (without the vulnerabilities) and send it to virt and see what happens. If he is on board then maybe that can be tweaked to be a replacement (or VGMix3 itself) and we can all have VGMix back.

if you know anything about coding websites, you'd know why it's been so many years and no one has touched the damn site. if you want to get into deim0s's code, i'm sure virt'd send it to you as a joke. that shit was horrid.

the main reason vgmix hasn't done a thing in the last several years is because no one has done anything. virt's busy, sure, but it's been years since vgmix was hacked. if he and his crew actually cared enough to get it up and running instead of the kludge that's up now, it'd be up and running. that's what it comes down to. he's content with the 'norm', and so as a result nothing's been done.

Bahamut

10-07-2009, 02:12 AM

if you know anything about coding websites, you'd know why it's been so many years and no one has touched the damn site. if you want to get into deim0s's code, i'm sure virt'd send it to you as a joke. that shit was horrid.

the main reason vgmix hasn't done a thing in the last several years is because no one has done anything. virt's busy, sure, but it's been years since vgmix was hacked. if he and his crew actually cared enough to get it up and running instead of the kludge that's up now, it'd be up and running. that's what it comes down to. he's content with the 'norm', and so as a result nothing's been done.

I don't know about 'content', but virt is just a really busy guy - even his presence online is pretty infrequent.

derek

11-10-2009, 07:07 PM

I've also felt the need for a site with the same functionality as vgmix, so I've created a revival of my own. http://remixed.vg is a project I've been working on to hopefully fill the void. I take feature suggestions and I'm working through a list of obvious features that need to be implemented. The site is still very much in development and I'm adding features all the time.

As for web programming, Latency is right. vgmix could be entirely recreated in about a month by someone who understands MVC development from the ground up. Web security has also come a long way since 2003 and is very well documented.

Marcusg

11-11-2009, 06:30 AM

I used to visit vgmix to listen to everyones remixes back in the day when I was in middle/high school.
The next thing I knew the site went bad. I had tons of remixes but now I only have most of the stuff of legends and megaman remixes. If there is anything I can do to help I will, I still lack experience but I know I understand database design and oracle if that helps. But I think it would be best to start over from scratch and build some type of layout of design. Sometimes its just a bitch to build on top of something thats unstable.

Kadosho

11-11-2009, 09:30 AM

Been way too long without VGMIX, I remember checking the site daily for any new tunes. Just to help get by the day, or even night (like OCR here)

Seems like a lot of our old friends have come and gone (or super busy).
I do hope that 2.0 turns out great.

Fishy

11-11-2009, 10:53 AM

I've also felt the need for a site with the same functionality as vgmix, so I've created a revival of my own. http://remixed.vg is a project I've been working on to hopefully fill the void. I take feature suggestions and I'm working through a list of obvious features that need to be implemented. The site is still very much in development and I'm adding features all the time.

This actually looks pretty nice. I think the vgm scene does need something like the old vgmix. OCR isn't everyone's cup of tea, and it doesn't accept a few things that I would like to hear (mainly 20 minute prog epics/covers :p).

I like the look of this set up so far, hope it starts to grow!

liquid wind

11-11-2009, 12:44 PM

that looks nice, also hope it does well I miss vgmix

I love the color scheme too

zircon

11-11-2009, 02:27 PM

Do we really need yet another remix website? You've heard of http://www.remixsite.org/ I assume, right?

Bleck

11-11-2009, 03:09 PM

we need at least ten

liquid wind

11-11-2009, 03:57 PM

Do we really need yet another remix website? You've heard of http://www.remixsite.org/ I assume, right?

I actually hadn't seen this, but it seems to be another different concept anyway as there is a lot of original music hosted there as well as remixes. there are a lot of remix sites but it's not that they're entirely redundant, they are all different...nothing has really filled the void left by vgmix and maybe nothing can, even a very similar website would be different depending on its users. you may be right, perhaps you just get farther away from that the more people try and everything not-OCR just gets more splintered

Sinewav

11-11-2009, 04:00 PM

Skrypnyk

11-11-2009, 06:11 PM

we need at least ten

at least ten

derek

11-11-2009, 08:09 PM

This looks pretty cool. Is there any chance for any kind of WIP feature like VGMix had? I miss that about VG Mix.

Sure. I'm currently working on integrating the forums first, because registering twice is annoying. Then rss feeds, id3 tag search, and I guess WIPs, because everyone seems to want it.

LuketheXjesse

11-11-2009, 09:49 PM

Hi, Seifer.

Sindra

11-11-2009, 11:17 PM

Demonstray

11-12-2009, 05:30 AM

This is a worthy cause. I would donate to this. In love dollars.

Sinewav

11-12-2009, 05:51 AM

Yeah, damn Virt for becoming successful and being too busy with his own life to dink with finishing VGMix 3.

Seriously though, I'm surprised nobody from his team stepped up and took the reigns, or that Virt didn't try passing it on to someone else to take over. If enough people got involved, it could be finished before too long, I'm sure.

If I recall, I believe the reason virt hasn't passed on the torch to someone else is that he's still rather attached to the site and has plans for it. It's just that those plans aren't getting implemented due to his schedule.

prophetik

11-12-2009, 07:44 AM

yeah, check out his personal site. there's a LOT that he's been involved with lately. like, the soundtrack to Red Faction: Guerrilla, which blew my mind (i LOVE that game!).

analoq

11-13-2009, 10:05 AM

The sad truth is that on the panel we had to frequently turn away remixes that were indeed good, but either
a) not exceptional or
b) not to the quality of our standards or
c) not conforming to our definition of a remix

So I do think the community has room for more remix sites. But what I don't think benefits the community are more OCR-style or VGMix-style sites. Offer something unique, please! Personally, I'd like to see more sites that carve out a niche for themselves, whether it be by system (like RKO), by genre or even by game series. Whatever happens to strike the passion of those so eager to create a remix site.

My 0.0134366€.

Sindra

11-13-2009, 04:46 PM

If I recall, I believe the reason virt hasn't passed on the torch to someone else is that he's still rather attached to the site and has plans for it. It's just that those plans aren't getting implemented due to his schedule.

So have a site half-done for years and not letting someone else step in (even temporarily) just to get the ball moving again is so hard a concept? I totally get that VGMix is his baby and he wants freedom to do what he wants, but the current product is that what is done is left to stagnate.

I know...you can't blame the guy for having an idea, trying to get it done, and halfway through the opportunity for greatness in the form of composing popular mainstream game soundtracks knocks on the door that he would have been stupid to walk away from. My reasoning is that he's gotta realize with his current schedule, that the site will never get done if he doesn't have others come in and work on it in his stead. So, while he might not be working on it directly and that might take a bit of the joy away, at least the site would be finished with all the grand ideas they originally had for his version. (there was a lot too, if I remember correctly) It's not like it wouldn't be his site anymore, either. If the plans and ideas were his, and he has them all drawn up and just doesn't have the time to code them, it's still his stuff....just with another person's manpower helping out.

derek

11-15-2009, 07:05 AM

I've finished integrating the forum. Anyone who signs up will have access to the forum automatically. You can go there to reports bugs (there might be some, it was kind of complicated), or request features. I've still got those other features in development, and I've thought of a few that were on vgmix that I could throw up there, like showing all the users that are currently online.

Sinewav

11-16-2009, 06:03 PM

So have a site half-done for years and not letting someone else step in (even temporarily) just to get the ball moving again is so hard a concept? I totally get that VGMix is his baby and he wants freedom to do what he wants, but the current product is that what is done is left to stagnate.

I know...you can't blame the guy for having an idea, trying to get it done, and halfway through the opportunity for greatness in the form of composing popular mainstream game soundtracks knocks on the door that he would have been stupid to walk away from. My reasoning is that he's gotta realize with his current schedule, that the site will never get done if he doesn't have others come in and work on it in his stead. So, while he might not be working on it directly and that might take a bit of the joy away, at least the site would be finished with all the grand ideas they originally had for his version. (there was a lot too, if I remember correctly) It's not like it wouldn't be his site anymore, either. If the plans and ideas were his, and he has them all drawn up and just doesn't have the time to code them, it's still his stuff....just with another person's manpower helping out.

I'm not saying I agree with his decision, but it is his to make (no matter how poor of a decision I think it is).

I study filmmaking and do a lot of other AV and music stuff on the side. One thing I can tell you is that the creative world is chalk-full of perfectionists who like to do everything themselves instead of delegating, even if they NEED to delegate. I've never talked to the guy, but virt seems like he's that type of person. I'm not trying to rag on him (I have to fight it sometimes, because I'm that type as well), I'm just saying I think I understand where he's coming from.

FireSlash

11-16-2009, 06:17 PM

Offer something unique, please!

Been pondering an alternate solution.. Basically expanding my wip uploader to allow perma uploads, segmenting it out by artist so each has their own "personal" page, and having a "main" site which indexes and can search all "sub" sites. You could sort of imagine it like a stripped out blog, but retooled for music only; allowing feedback on wips, a place to showcase finals, etc.

Though I've not been motivated to work on it since so many vgmix clones are popping up; and honestly someone else has probably already done this. I might do it if there's interest... but seeing sites like remixed.vg and remixsite.org pop up, I fear I'd only be furthering the splitting of the community.

zircon

11-16-2009, 06:18 PM

Skummel Maske

11-16-2009, 06:53 PM

Been pondering an alternate solution.. Basically expanding my wip uploader to allow perma uploads, segmenting it out by artist so each has their own "personal" page, and having a "main" site which indexes and can search all "sub" sites. You could sort of imagine it like a stripped out blog, but retooled for music only; allowing feedback on wips, a place to showcase finals, etc.

Though I've not been motivated to work on it since so many vgmix clones are popping up; and honestly someone else has probably already done this. I might do it if there's interest... but seeing sites like remixed.vg and remixsite.org pop up, I fear I'd only be furthering the splitting of the community.

There might possibly be someone else who has already done this, but don't let that stop you! I think it's a great idea, and a logical expansion to what you already have.

analoq

11-16-2009, 11:27 PM

Though I've not been motivated to work on it since so many vgmix clones are popping up; and honestly someone else has probably already done this. I might do it if there's interest... but seeing sites like remixed.vg and remixsite.org pop up, I fear I'd only be furthering the splitting of the community.

The clones that have popped up are seemingly the result of novices eager to develop a site with little consideration to the community at large. You seem to be thinking beyond that sort of narcissism, so you'll probably come to the right decisions.

While your doubts are well founded, it could just be a matter of execution. I remember Jeremy Morse developed a site that had tags of the various OC ReMixes. Morse's idea was very good, but the execution as a separate site was cumbersome. He eventually gave up on it but now OCR has its own tags and it's probably the most useful feature added to the site since I've been here.

As for myself I took something I was passionate about, compos, and developed a site to simplify the tasks of running compos and participating in them. Instead of executing it as a separate site with its own authentication scheme I was able to integrate it into an already established site in the community. It's a niche, but it does make life easier for those who use it and there's nothing else quite like it.

cheers.

Sindra

11-17-2009, 12:14 AM

Sindra, it's not just virt who is working on the new VGMix. He may be one of the conceptual designers, but he has a whole team of volunteer coders. However, all of them are busy as well. It's a massive project - you make it sound like it's just virt, but that has never been the case.

Nobody corrected me. People (like Sinewav there, though he might not have known either) gave me the impression the reason it wasn't going forward was because of Virt's busy schedule, which just led me to believe he was why it wasn't going forward.

djpretzel

11-17-2009, 01:21 AM

While your doubts are well founded, it could just be a matter of execution. I remember Jeremy Morse developed a site that had tags of the various OC ReMixes. Morse's idea was very good, but the execution as a separate site was cumbersome. He eventually gave up on it but now OCR has its own tags and it's probably the most useful feature added to the site since I've been here.

As for myself I took something I was passionate about, compos, and developed a site to simplify the tasks of running compos and participating in them. Instead of executing it as a separate site with its own authentication scheme I was able to integrate it into an already established site in the community. It's a niche, but it does make life easier for those who use it and there's nothing else quite like it.

cheers.

Well, unfortunately, this thread almost needs to be moved/retitled at this point, as it's turned less into a discussion about VGMix in general and more of an overall meditation on the purpose of vgm arrangement sites and potential interaction with OCR.

analoq, regarding the tags addition, thanks - I honestly feel like it needs to be further integrated to be more useful, but we're working on that (display on mix detail pages, etc.). I personally like the streaming YouTube preview, and god knows the recent redesign has, in my opinion, really eliminated a lot of the redundancy/clutter. Oh, it's Joshua Morse, not Jeremy :)

Now, back on topic: I've been thinking about this very issue for over a year. I've shared some of my thoughts with Jake, Andy, and others. Here they are, more or less:

My own emphasis has been, is, and will always remain ocremix.org. In case anyone was wondering, I'm in it for the long haul, and am committed to not only keeping this site running, but improving it, for as long as I am able.
That being said, I think improvement means being open-minded. I don't want to dilute or in any way lessen our existing process and what it means to have a mix submitted and approved, but what I've been thinking is that our workshop forums could potentially be extended/expanded to include functionality similar in nature to what is being described. That was actually part of my rationale for renaming them to "Workshop" - to avoid pigeonholing music posted there as just works-in-progress only. The benefits of this solution are that it would allow folks to share WIP and completed music quickly, still get a spotlight for it, and potentially allow other types of integrations w/ game/composer database info down the road. All while using existing OCR forum accounts and not creating a whole other site, or group of sites, that splinter things.
It's 2009. If someone wants to post music on the Internet, they have zillions of great options. YouTube, Last.fm, Tindeck, and dozens of other sites provide services for free that let you make your mixes available to the world. It seems to me, what OCR adds is that we have standards and judges and an awesome community and some guidelines for what a vgm mix should be. Workshop mixes wouldn't have to line up with those guidelines, but they'd still get the benefit of being part of a larger community of VGM fans.
As I see it, there are probably two main groups of folks interested in a new VGMix or a VGMix clone: Those who legitimately want a site with that specific functionality/atmosphere, or those who simply don't like me or OC ReMix, for whatever reason. I'm not sure I can do too much about the latter group, but the former group is looking for something legit, and if OCR can meet all or part of those requirements without compromising what we're all about, that seems like a good idea to me.
Generally speaking, my vision for doing this involves building on top of vBulletin. They're about to release a new version, 4.0, with a lot of changes, so my thinking is to wait until they go final with it, upgrade, then start pursuing what's possible. That's probably 3-4 months, give or take, so we'd be looking at late Q1 or early Q2 for exploring this. If folks feel like my idea is poop, or simply can't wait that long, everyone is obviously free to create their own website, and we can have a dozen such sites to choose from. Hell, who knows, maybe that'd be a good thing and promote innovation or healthy competition or what not. To me, because I know that I'm behind OCR 110%, I always will be, and because I'm proud of what we've all already built, I honestly believe my proposal is preferable.

That's pretty much it; curious as to everyone's thoughts, as always.

ella guro

11-17-2009, 02:37 AM

As I see it, there are probably two main groups of folks interested in a new VGMix or a VGMix clone: Those who legitimately want a site with that specific functionality/atmosphere, or those who simply don't like me or OC ReMix, for whatever reason. I'm not sure I can do too much about the latter group, but the former group is looking for something legit, and if OCR can meet all or part of those requirements without compromising what we're all about, that seems like a good idea to me.
Generally speaking, my vision for doing this involves building on top of vBulletin. They're about to release a new version, 4.0, with a lot of changes, so my thinking is to wait until they go final with it, upgrade, then start pursuing what's possible. That's probably 3-4 months, give or take, so we'd be looking at late Q1 or early Q2 for exploring this. If folks feel like my idea is poop, or simply can't wait that long, everyone is obviously free to create their own website, and we can have a dozen such sites to choose from. Hell, who knows, maybe that'd be a good thing and promote innovation or healthy competition or what not. To me, because I know that I'm behind OCR 110%, I always will be, and because I'm proud of what we've all already built, I honestly believe my proposal is preferable.
[/LIST]
That's pretty much it; curious as to everyone's thoughts, as always.

I feel like if VGMix or another site could accomplish what VGMix2 originally set out to do, it would be doing something that maybe OCR isn't capable of doing for a couple of reasons:

1) There's a certain subset of people in the community who, (like you said) for whatever reason, aren't involved in OCR and it brings those people on board. It also makes them more accessible to the rest of the community, especially people who haven't been around as long. I think that's important because it introduces more variety of points of view into the community, variety which might not be coming into the mix otherwise.

2) The way VGMix2 was set up (or at least supposed to be set up) was specifically on the artist and gave little more incentive for people to give/get feedback and improve their mixes. OCR has always seemed a bit more organized and listener-oriented. The Workshop forums can do that over here, but there isn't an incentive built into to the way the site works, and there are a lot of mixes posted there so there's still limited amount of people who read and comment on them. Also, by limiting it so that you could only post 1 mix every two weeks, VGMix gave each individual mix a little bit more of a spotlight. OCR could certainly have an incentive system like that and find a way to get more people checking the Workshop forums. And it could find a way to more greatly separate and spotlight completed mixes from the works and progress, it's just that it might be hard to have all that exist without fundamentally altering the site.

Now I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any improvements made to the site or that they wouldn't work, just that it might not be realistic to assume that OCR could meet all the expectations of the things a site like VGMix used to do. I think it's very reasonable to try to weigh in what OCR is capable of doing well ("doing well" is the key phrase here) and stay true to that as much as possible.

Also as a side note 'cause a few people in the thread talked about this: I don't think that a lot of additional remix sites will split the community. Certainly when VgMix1/VgMix2 was around there were people who only went there and people who only came here, but my impression is that many many people used both sites. If someone can create a site that has an interesting idea behind it and a solid base of users, I think that only helps the community. Maybe, like djp said, if they work well they can be integrated into OCR in some way? And even if not it's good for the community to have them around. But either way, OCR is plenty established already for something to steal its thunder.

k-wix

11-17-2009, 02:55 AM

That being said, I think improvement means being open-minded. I don't want to dilute or in any way lessen our existing process and what it means to have a mix submitted and approved, but what I've been thinking is that our workshop forums could potentially be extended/expanded to include functionality similar in nature to what is being described. That was actually part of my rationale for renaming them to "Workshop" - to avoid pigeonholing music posted there as just works-in-progress only. The benefits of this solution are that it would allow folks to share WIP and completed music quickly, still get a spotlight for it, and potentially allow other types of integrations w/ game/composer database info down the road. All while using existing OCR forum accounts and not creating a whole other site, or group of sites, that splinter things.

This is a really cool idea, I'd be curious to see how it would all work though. Would it just be straight up forum-based? or would you actually try highlighting some of the 'workshop' stuff on the main site? Maybe you could work something out where you could move a song from the workshop section to the main OCR site once it passed the judges or something to that effect. Something like a tier system for the songs, but that might get a little confusing.

ella guro

11-17-2009, 04:07 AM

This is a really cool idea, I'd be curious to see how it would all work though. Would it just be straight up forum-based? or would you actually try highlighting some of the 'workshop' stuff on the main site? Maybe you could work something out where you could move a song from the workshop section to the main OCR site once it passed the judges or something to that effect. Something like a tier system for the songs, but that might get a little confusing.

I just wanna clarify that I think this is a good idea too, and I'm all for it getting implemented in some way. And I agree 100% about being open for improvement and being open-minded as possible. I mainly just wanted to point out that OCR can't fulfill every need of the community, nor should it have to. I think it's better to work in conjunction with other places that can fulfill those other needs instead of trying to have this site do everything.

Tinaddar

11-17-2009, 05:24 AM

So I’ve been around for quite a while, though only as a listener, and a pretty quiet one too. Don’t often post on the forums (this is only my second post here at OCR), but this topic really interests me. I’ve been listening to the OcRemixes for a long time, before I ever discovered VGMix. Unfortunately, I discovered VGMix2 too late, just before it came down, and only managed to get 850 of the songs that were there. (I’ve been assured the database is still intact, just not currently online…) Not everything I found there was great, but a lot of it was amazing.

For a long time, I wondered what people over here at OCR thought about VGMix. It’s great that I generally am seeing support! It’s so weird to see all of the posters, ‘cause I recognize the names of people who created songs I love. I sort of feel like I know some of you, even though I’ve never even seen you post before, let alone actually talked to you.

I like OcRemix, but VGMix did something that I just don’t think OCR is going to ever do. Yes, OCR has a work in progress forum, but VGMix took that (apparently) so much further. I say apparently because sadly, I never got to take part in rating the remixes, but from what I hear it works out very well. Yes, there are alternative ways that artists can upload their music, for example youtube, but I see two glaring problems with that. First, there is no sense of community, and second, how is someone like me supposed to find all the work that is done? Am I supposed to scour youtube for hours and hours every day?

This ties in to my thoughts on having a whole bunch of remix sites out there. I am under the impression that back in the day, there was VGMix and OcRemix, and they were the big two. VGMix let anyone in, and helped newcomers out, while OcRemix was more of a site for people who already knew what they were doing. Both are great, and great music came out of both. A number of songs were on both, as were many artists. And, when there were just the two big ones, it wasn’t too much trouble for an artist to kind of hang out in both communities. However, when there are dozens of these sites out there, I know that if I were creating music it would simply be too much of my time trying to hang out in all of them, and as a listener it is sort of a pain to have to try to keep up with everything. I already try to stay on top of the new OcRemixes, the new remix albums they do, as well as DoD and PRC and others, but it gets confusing and I’m a busy guy. I really like the idea of having both VGMix and OcRemix operating at full capacity, because I think they can exist complementary to each other, to improve the music and the community.

A few words about Virt. I don’t personally know him, by any means, but I’ve read what he had to say on the VGMix forums. Basically, he’d been saying that he wants to find people to work on it, but that everyone is just too busy. His last posts were in January though, so I really don’t know what he’s been up to in the past year. He did say that he loves the support, and that if there are any programmers interested that they should try to contact him.

Now, after reading this thread I found links to two other remix sites, so I know how I’m spending the rest of MY day…

Kidd Cabbage

11-17-2009, 07:18 AM

djpretzel

11-17-2009, 02:17 PM

I don't know the specifics of copyright as pertaining to websites, but assuming that virt's work on VGMix2 is copyrighted (I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be), the idea of remaking his site, a derivative work of his copyright, seems totally illegal to me if you're not getting his permission.

Songs, graphics, etc. are protected by copyright. Names of businesses and products are protected by trademark. Ideas, on the other hand, can only be protected by patents, and I don't think anything about OCR, VGMix, or anything else being discussed is particularly patentable. In other words (and the same holds true for OCR), as long as it's called something else, doesn't reuse any graphics or take mixes without permission, etc., a website could be created with identical functionality. My question is, why bother, but then again, some folks seem to either be pessimistic that we can do anything here instead, or simply want a different sandbox to play in.

Tinaddar

11-17-2009, 02:48 PM

My question is, why bother, but then again, some folks seem to either be pessimistic that we can do anything here instead, or simply want a different sandbox to play in.

It's not that we're pessimistic, or hate you, or anything like that. However, are you planning, at any point in the future, to let anyone upload anything they've been working on, without putting it through the judges panel? I really don't think you are, as that is against the spirit of OCR. However, that is exactly the spirit of VGMix, and a lot of people like the idea of having both.

Yes, you may get a very nice, functional and helpful work in progress section. In fact, I hope you do, and I hope everybody uses it and loves it. But at the end of the day (or rather, the end of the remix) when the artist decides "Yes, it is finished, and I'm happy with it," if the song doesn't live up to your standards it will just disappear. Maybe the song is good and people will like it, but it doesn't quite qualify as a remix. You would have to deny it on OcRemix, yet at VGMix it would still be available.

djpretzel

11-17-2009, 02:56 PM

It's not that we're pessimistic, or hate you, or anything like that. However, are you planning, at any point in the future, to let anyone upload anything they've been working on, without putting it through the judges panel? I really don't think you are, as that is against the spirit of OCR. However, that is exactly the spirit of VGMix, and a lot of people like the idea of having both.

Yes, you may get a very nice, functional and helpful work in progress section. In fact, I hope you do, and I hope everybody uses it and loves it. But at the end of the day (or rather, the end of the remix) when the artist decides "Yes, it is finished, and I'm happy with it," if the song doesn't live up to your standards it will just disappear. Maybe the song is good and people will like it, but it doesn't quite qualify as a remix. You would have to deny it on OcRemix, yet at VGMix it would still be available.

There are a lot of assumptions about what I will or won't do in those two paragraphs, and all I was saying is that it was an idea worth exploring. I imagine developing all of the specifics would be more of a community dialogue, and a dialogue with the judges as well, but you're already assuming certain things are impossible and expressing skepticism. If that's not pessimism, I don't know what is. If you need more clarity, I can definitely say that I wasn't expecting mixes posted under an expanded workshop forum to just "disappear" - the forum as it is right now does not get purged, FYI, and that policy would remain in place. It would be up to the artist whether to submit the mix for formal consideration as an OC ReMix, but if they didn't, or if it was rejected, it would remain available on the workshop forums, as is the case presently.

Level 99

11-17-2009, 03:05 PM

It’s so weird to see all of the posters, ‘cause I recognize the names of people who created songs I love....

...I already try to stay on top of the new OcRemixes, the new remix albums they do, as well as DoD and PRC and others, but it gets confusing and I’m a busy guy. I really like the idea of having both VGMix and OcRemix operating at full capacity, because I think they can exist complementary to each other, to improve the music and the community....

On the first quoted part, there was indeed a lot of sharing between OCR and VGMix2 back in the day. There was also a lot of one-siters who would stay on one site and wouldn't go to the other if their life depended on it. However, for the most-part, it fostered some healthy communities and competition, and this is coming from someone who started at VGMix2 and ended up coming over to OCR. It's very hard to replicate that kind of atmosphere now, though, due to more sites somewhat diluting the crowds shared and the community has been slowly moving forward in-general.

On the second part, thasauce.net does a lot of cataloging of recent remixes from many sites, like R:TS, OCR, remix.kwed, and so on. That's a great way to stay on top of things music-wise.

In-general, I'm really enjoying watching this discussion and seeing the different points people are making on where the situation stands now and where it can possibly be taken, particularly the transformation of the Workshop area. I have no clue how it could actually be pulled off to offer similar functionality, as there were a few things done over at VGMix2 that might directly conflict with the method of operations here, but I'm speaking out of my box now since I'm not a web-developer. Good luck to all trying to bring back that kind of functionality, I'll definitely be watching the progress with eager interest!

liquid wind

11-17-2009, 03:07 PM

... a website could be created with identical functionality. My question is, why bother, but then again, some folks seem to either be pessimistic that we can do anything here instead, or simply want a different sandbox to play in.

it's not really redundant when you consider the fact that vgmix is down and all, I agree that there's room to build on that and do your own thing, vgmix2 was flawed and they had wanted to rework it anyway, but the vgmix clones I've seen have indeed been different, they're *not* exactly alike

as for why the forums here couldn't be something like what vgmix was, I'd have to see it to really have an opinion on it. I think for WIP's it would be great but how easily could completed works be sorted through under such a system and how much attention would they get? it could work but it seems just as easy to me to have different sites when their purposes are so clearly different, but I'm definitely looking forward to whatever you come up with

zircon

11-17-2009, 03:09 PM

I'm sure a system could be devised here where completed songs could get some good attention (we could perhaps integrate our existing tagging system, for example.) There are plenty of possibilities. VGmix was certainly not stranger to the problem of songs getting lost, though. Unless you were a top-rated track (the vast majority of which either were OC ReMixes or would have been had they been submitted here) you were lost in a sea of other average or below-average mixes.

Bleck

11-17-2009, 03:16 PM

liquid wind

11-17-2009, 03:20 PM

As soon as we start thinking of a way to separate the 'good mixes' from the bad, the idea has become an OCR-clone.

vgmix had a tier system, it was an OCR clone

k-wix

11-17-2009, 03:24 PM

I imagine developing all of the specifics would be more of a community dialogue, and a dialogue with the judges as well,

I think one of the toughest hurdles so to speak would be dealing with the type of people who have a song, they like it, other people like it, but its definitely just not OCR standards. When that occurs, and the mix just sits in the WIP forums, it eventually just kinda dies. As one of the biggest fans of vgmix, i can tell you one of the biggest draws of the site is the fact that your song had a place when it was finished. It was rated, it had a group of people that usually liked it, and a group of people that usually disliked it. The mixer took what he could away and sometimes improved.

If you want to cater to the people who enjoyed vgmix, I really think you should come up with something for that type of person. Or that type of song, rather. I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts on that DJP, do you think this could be done within OCR?

Tinaddar

11-17-2009, 04:58 PM

I think one of the toughest hurdles so to speak would be dealing with the type of people who have a song, they like it, other people like it, but its definitely just not OCR standards. When that occurs, and the mix just sits in the WIP forums, it eventually just kinda dies.

This, and a few other recent posts, have been pretty much what I was trying to say, and I'm sorry if I assumed anything or appeared pessimistic. But, even though the WIP forums and threads may be around forever, who can go through every WIP to find the completed songs? What about someone who is new, are they going to go through the forums to find the songs? That's what I meant by disappearing.

If you created some system for organizing these non-OCR tunes, then perhaps there wouldn't be a need for a new VGMix. However, this is simply not OcRemix anymore, so while you may not call it VGMix it is still a separate system. Frankly, I don't care who does it or what it is called, and I'm not rejecting the possibility that OcRemix could do it.

So far as VGMix2 songs disappearing in the lower tiers, I can only speak for myself but I tried to listen to everything that I could. I downloaded as many songs as I could independent of their ratings, and formed my own opinions on them. They may not have been as noticeable, but at least they were still there to be easily found.

DarkeSword

11-17-2009, 05:27 PM

If you created some system for organizing these non-OCR tunes, then perhaps there wouldn't be a need for a new VGMix. However, this is simply not OcRemix anymore, so while you may not call it VGMix it is still a separate system. Frankly, I don't care who does it or what it is called, and I'm not rejecting the possibility that OcRemix could do it.
You're making far too many assumptions about what OCR is and what OCR isn't.

zircon

11-17-2009, 06:06 PM

Looking through all of the mixes for a song or game was what made me like VGMix in the first place. We have to realize that people can basically like anything - what would be constituted as a 'below-average mix' on OCR might find it's way onto people's playlists nonetheless. As soon as we start thinking of a way to separate the 'good mixes' from the bad, the idea has become an OCR-clone.

Then obviously you didn't visit VGmix, since the whole site revolved around a 'chart' system that sorted mixes from 'best' to 'worst'. If we were to improve our WIP/completed system here we could easily have the ability to sort by game, just like with normal OCReMixes.

Tinaddar

11-17-2009, 06:08 PM

You're making far too many assumptions about what OCR is and what OCR isn't.

My only assumption there was that songs that receive the "OC_ReMix" tag pass through a panel of judges. Was I wrong? If that panel of judges were to disappear, I don't think that OcRemix would still be the same entity. (And I don't mean to sound contentious, if perhaps I come off that way.)

If you still think I'm making unfair assumptions, feel free to let me know just what they are, and how they are incorrect, as I appreciate constructive criticism. However, I sort of feel like I'm derailing the thread, so go ahead and send me a private message, and I'll just get out of everyone's way for now.

Pope

11-17-2009, 08:01 PM

Hey there.

This post adds nothing new to the discussion. I just wanted to parrot everyone else in my own words, basically. I probably ramble a lot.

I am definitely one of those people who was exclusive to VGMix back in the day, and have continued to be until now. In fact, I only found out about this thread because someone posted about it in the nigh barren VGMix X forum, home of the few remaining active VGMix enthusiasts.

My exclusivity with VGMix had nothing to do with disliking OCR or djp (I know very very little about him, so why dislike him?). It really was that I loved the RPG stat system for site participation, and the "everyone is accepted, even if your mix is going to get brutally reviewed" mentality of VGMix 2. That, and I just never bothered with expanding my online social circle to include the OCR community, even as I was enjoying some fantastic albums put out by you guys.

I look forward to being a part of this now, however.

But for the time being, more about VGMix. :)

I loved that site. I have never finished recording a mix myself, though I always wanted to, and still plan to. I only wrote 2 reviews on VGMix 2, but they were good ones. I loved being able to help others improve in their craft. The thing I loved the most however, even more than the fantastic music that came out of the guys over at VGMix (many of which, as previously noted, are also OCR remixers), was the sense of community. I hope I can find the same thing here, and I especially hope that if a new VGMix initiative take off, that a similar community of crazies develops at the new incarnation of the site.

I know the point has already been made, but just to reiterate, the thing that made VGMix shine was it's alternative approach to managing mixes.

OCR has it's judges. Now, I'm not going to pretend I know anything about how things are run here other than that because... well, that's all I know at this point, but I imagine, like others have stated, that there are times when some songs are not accepted here, despite the fact that they are fantastic songs, simply because they don't fit OCR's criteria.

While that is by no means a flaw of OCR, but simply a defining trait of how you run things, it is one of the reasons why VGMix had such a big draw for mixing newcomers, and listeners alike. There was some crazy stuff on VGMix that I expect you just wouldn't find many other places.

The thing that excited me most about the prospect of VGMix 3 as it was described at the Magfest 5 panel, was the fact that virt and the boys were planning to take the whole idea of the RPG stat system, and a community based on all-inclusiveness and assisting others in honing their musical craft, and drilling even further down into that niche.

They explicitly stated at the panel that VGMix 3 was going to be a site for mixers, and that was pretty much the only focus they would have. There are plenty of site out there catering to listeners, but VGMix 3 was going to be for the musicians. It was (and perhaps still is, I haven't lost hope completely yet) going to be a place for getting feedback. It was going to be an MMO where you gain experience for helping others learn and grow, and gain reputation by being awesome at what you do, and showing others how to be as incredible as you are.

BAH!

This needs to happen. I don't care who does it.

If anyone knows where to find that Magfest 5 VGMix 3 panel video, and would post it up here, I think that could start a whole lot of new discussion of what a new VGMix-type site could be, rather than simply a recreation of VGMix 2. I know some people think that some of the new ideas presented were superfluous, but personally I got a little bit aroused when I heard about everything virt and the team had/have planned for 3.

ok... that's all for now.

Monobrow

11-17-2009, 08:25 PM

Then obviously you didn't visit VGmix, since the whole site revolved around a 'chart' system that sorted mixes from 'best' to 'worst'. If we were to improve our WIP/completed system here we could easily have the ability to sort by game, just like with normal OCReMixes.

I think he meant that if the songs aren't good enough here, they are not released here, and no one gets to hear them (without going to a lot of trouble).

Yes you can revise the system here, but he was talking about right now, and within the past seven years. This is the first time I've heard of any sort of WIP system besides this being mentioned. Previously, every time someone complained about the WIP forum, the answer is usually always "it's fine, it works, the end"... Every time someone wanted to hear something that was rejected from OCR, it was very hard to do so unless they used WIP forum, or had the awesomeness to release somewhere else like THASAUCE and even then... It also didn't help that links to rejected songs are removed from the decisions...

While VGMIX did have a rating system, the songs were voted on by everyone who wanted to, who bothered to, they were rated by anyone, thus the tier system was open to the public. At OCR, the judges and djp are the first, and final tier system.

In other words, there were obvious differences between OCR and VGMIX that a lot of people who used VGMIX miss (like Bleck). You don't have the same experience when visiting both sites.

Bleck

11-17-2009, 09:05 PM

What Mono said, basically. The difference, to me, between OCR and VGMix was that VGMix let me pick which songs I thought were the best, instead of a panel doing it for me.

Kidd Cabbage

11-17-2009, 09:37 PM

Songs, graphics, etc. are protected by copyright. Names of businesses and products are protected by trademark. Ideas, on the other hand, can only be protected by patents, and I don't think anything about OCR, VGMix, or anything else being discussed is particularly patentable. In other words (and the same holds true for OCR), as long as it's called something else, doesn't reuse any graphics or take mixes without permission, etc., a website could be created with identical functionality. My question is, why bother, but then again, some folks seem to either be pessimistic that we can do anything here instead, or simply want a different sandbox to play in.

I know the difference between copyright and trademark, I just thought that they were planning on using the graphics, code, name, and logo from the original VGMix2 site, rather than a site *inspired* by it.

DarkeSword

11-17-2009, 10:29 PM

While VGMIX did have a rating system, the songs were voted on by everyone who wanted to, who bothered to, they were rated by anyone, thus the tier system was open to the public. At OCR, the judges and djp are the first, and final tier system.

Not really knocking VGMix here, yes, that was the concept, but in practice, the people ranking remixes on VGMix eventually boiled down to a few regulars that numbered around the same size of OCR's panel. :tomatoface:

But anyway, I think a lot of people are assuming a lot about what's being considered as far as a revision of the Workshop section of OCR. Forget about rating and ranking and doing what VGMix did; the basic idea that's being tossed around is giving artists the ability to "release" a song on OCR by tying it to the database and making artist released tracks searchable by game and all that other nice stuff. No, they won't be tagged as OC ReMixes, and yes, you'd still have to submit and go through the process to get posted on the front page and all that jazz, but it's more about taking stuff that people release out of a "forum" context and make it something far more browsable. Instead of creating a thread that gets lost in a sea of "check out my first remax," you add your remix to a catalog of Workshop mixes. Hypothetically we could even host them (but I'm not in any position to commit to that kind of thing).

It's all very cerebral/conceptual right now, but the basic idea is not to replace OCR's current Panel system or to ape VGMix's tiers and ranks, but to make the Workshop more functional for artists trying to release their work and for listeners trying to find the latest mixes the community has to offer.

Also, Mono, when people talk about improving the WIP forum and other people say "it's fine, it works in the end," the discussion isn't really about promoting work but about getting meaningful feedback for the purposes of submitting. It's really a different discussion altogether.

Monobrow

11-17-2009, 11:29 PM

Oh yeah dude, I know VgMix had it's share of flaws. I was just pointing out that OCR and VgMix are really apples and oranges, or maybe more applicable as different sides to the same coin. They had different systems, and in that, you really have to pick and choose what you concentrate on, each had strengths and weaknesses. Also I mostly wanted to clarify that Bleck's post was being misrepresented in its reply.

Hypothetically we could even host them (but I'm not in any position to commit to that kind of thing).

I'm pretty sure that at one point, herograw/rguinn/rob offered to host WIP files on the WIP forum for people but no one took him up on that.

I'd love for the WIP forum to have some sort of software functionality instead of just being a forum. A place where arists could update their WIPs as they go and people could just log in and check them. That is kind of what VgMix had, and I thought it worked rather well. A rating's system is not something that OCR is interested in, but I think a more organized approach to people's access to WIPs in general couldn't hurt.

I am the type that really wants to decide for myself, what I like and don't like, what I want to listen to. I will take anything and everything and put it on my playlist and give it a shot. So the more access I have to people's music, the better IMO. I feel that each rejected song that I don't hear is kind of like a missed opportunity for my ears *_*.

k-wix

11-18-2009, 12:49 AM

But anyway, I think a lot of people are assuming a lot about what's being considered as far as a revision of the Workshop section of OCR. Forget about rating and ranking and doing what VGMix did; the basic idea that's being tossed around is giving artists the ability to "release" a song on OCR by tying it to the database and making artist released tracks searchable by game and all that other nice stuff. No, they won't be tagged as OC ReMixes, and yes, you'd still have to submit and go through the process to get posted on the front page and all that jazz, but it's more about taking stuff that people release out of a "forum" context and make it something far more browsable. Instead of creating a thread that gets lost in a sea of "check out my first remax," you add your remix to a catalog of Workshop mixes. Hypothetically we could even host them (but I'm not in any position to commit to that kind of thing).

This would definitely be a huge improvement to the Workshop mixes forum, no doubt. I think your going to get a lot of requests for vgmix-type features because honestly, people just really miss the site. But yea, this sort've a change would definitely make me more interested in the 'Workshop' forums over here, I almost never look at it as it stands. It'd be cool to make a widget on the front page that would show off a random workshop song or something, maybe so people could help that mixer out.

Nario

11-18-2009, 05:04 AM

I'm in favor of this Revival.

LuketheXjesse

11-18-2009, 06:18 AM

Wait, you don't post here, Nario! :O

Sindra

11-18-2009, 04:23 PM

Holy shyte it's Nario!

spacepony

11-18-2009, 06:20 PM

I used to enjoy the whole VGMix thing. It had something different about it. Where as OCR has always been more quality orientated (which is great), there was a nice mix of talented and not so talented artists at VGMix. Then there were the likes of myself, who released some utter bilj!*

At any rate, good times. I'd like to see it back in some form.

*I heard Ben Elton use the word one time and thought it rather amusing for some reason.

Nario

11-19-2009, 02:57 AM

Wait, you don't post here, Nario! :O
Hehe, no I do not... but I'm still in support of this Revival nonetheless! :D

Sindra

11-19-2009, 03:51 AM

Is the idea of evolving the WIP forum even doable? If so, I say go for it. It can only help people achieve the necessary level of quality the judges look for, while also providing the rest of us with the works that may fall short but still fall within the range the rest of us still deem interesting for our individual reasons.

Souliarc

11-19-2009, 05:57 AM

I also give my vote to completing this revival. I have planned on dishing out my own ReMix's for a few years now and I'll be damned if I finally submit something and it gets NO'ed to death. At least with VGMix I can still share my music in a video game music community.

Also, like Sindra, I like finding music that just happens to fit with my own reasons even if it may not fit the standards of OCR.

There is PLENTY of room for VGMix in the VGM community alongside OCR.

Nario

11-19-2009, 07:01 AM

There is PLENTY of room for VGMix in the VGM community alongside OCR.
Agreed. I think people are hungry for VGMix.

Oh, and it looks like we live only an hour from each other. I live in Elizabethtown. :)

Never once have I supported the idea that VGMix be the only VG-remixing site on the web, and nor have I supported the idea that OCR be the only VG-remixing site on the web either. Back in high school, I frequently browsed VGMix's forums and posted songs there while I simultaneously gathered music from OCR. Both sites offered a different variety of music, and I liked having my options.

However, with VGMix gone, something is missing, and no other site has been able to replace what VGMix 2.0 once was. It was truly a haven of work in progress music, and everyone felt free to share their constructive criticism. Not just that, but it was also home to music of every kind as well: if something couldn't get accepted here at OCR, they went straight to VGMix and felt free to share it with everyone.

I'm one of the few who have stuck with VGMix after all of these years. I have matured over the past three years and have grown substantially in my music capabilities, even to the point my first album is coming out later this month. I couldn't get to where I am now without VGMix, but sadly, VGMix X isn't cutting it right now. VGMix 2.5 had a lot of traffic and I even improved drastically there, but VGMix X has done nothing to encourage music-making, especially since users aren't even allowed to sign up for the site anymore, how the database won't accept anymore songs, and how dead the forums are. I only make a true video game arrangement maybe once a year now due to not being motivated by VGMix X, and it's been like this for over a year. Sure, the forums and main site were encouraging at first, but the lack of support just made it fall down like Midgar Sector 7 and it hasn't been the same since.

I've grown and am ready to remix video game music again, but not without a reason. VGMix was that reason, and quite frankly, I think it might be the only reason for me. Not OCR, not ThaSauce, not even DoD can bring a consistent reason for me to remix video game music (despite working with Omni and Powellman on a Pokemon remix last DoD for GameBoy month). VGMix, its reviewing system, and community were the reason I made lots of remixes in the past, and I have a feeling I would do the same were VGMix back up now, except my music would sound so much better than before--I guess we all have to start somewhere.

Now, if VGMix 2.0 were brought back, I would definitely not consider it a slap in virt's face. He can most certainly take the site and mold it however he wishes, as it's his baby. However, nothing's been done with VGMix X in over a year, and that's why I'm totally in support of this VGMix Revival. It would be a breathe of fresh air, and hopefully an inspiration to virt's coders to finish VGMix 3.0 once and for all.

Pope

11-19-2009, 10:03 AM

...but the lack of support just made it fall down like Midgar Sector 7...

Oh Nario... I love you.

Aside from DoD, I feel generally the same way about having no motivation to mix. Not that I have ever participated in DoD, but because my style of music fits their criteria. I've always kept the idea of it in the back of my mind.

VGMix 2.5 was indeed great. It felt like a living thing, rather than the desolate wasteland VGMix X has become, as you mentioned. Again, it's draw was it's community, and people's eagerness to learn from each other. That, and insanity.

Souliarc

11-19-2009, 05:00 PM

Agreed. I think people are hungry for VGMix.

Oh, and it looks like we live only an hour from each other. I live in Elizabethtown. :)

Ah ha! The potential for a meet-up in Kentucky just gets better and better XD Good to see ya around.

Mika

11-20-2009, 01:12 PM

To me vgmix was always about the community, even more than it was about the music of all kinds. I'm not saying that the community at ocr or anywhere else is bad or anything, just decidedly different.

And it just so happens that vgmix is the one I enjoy being part of.

So in that sense, if someone were to make a "inspired by vgmix2" site or whatever, I probably wouldn't visit it that much, because the people won't necessarily be the same.

Which is also partially the reason why I don't have accounts in the two other sites mentioned earlier in this thread. I don't have the time to invest getting to know new internet people these days, I'd rather stay in my little bubble that I've constructed back when time was a plenty.

Sindra

11-20-2009, 04:35 PM

I guess the only way VGMix is going to revive anytime soon is if they find coders who aren't busy at this time, who are willing to put X-amount of hours into finishing the site. I'm not meaning this to insult any of the current staff or coders that are there now, but like was said....they're busy with other things. Logic would say that, rather than let an awesome idea stagnate, find some more people willing to pitch in to take the pressure off of the current team.

Sinewav

11-21-2009, 07:40 PM

I won't make any claims about what the purpose of these two sites ACTUALLY are about, but rather I'll state my perceptions of what they APPEAR to be about. Here's the way I see it:

Since I started visiting OCR back in '01, my impression of the site is that its purpose is to showcase high-quality video game remixes to the public. While there are some useful WIP functions (and they have been improving too), the focus is on what the judges panel passes.

VGMix, seemed to focus on WIPs and helping people improve their mixes via its community. Yes, you could go there, just download the top rated songs and call it a day, but the focus was on reviews and improvement.

Obviously there is crossover. While both have showcasing and WIP-review features, OCR is better at showcasing, and VGMix was better at WIPs... or to overgeneralize, OCR's specialty is on the listener, while VGMix was on the artist. Both sites were decent at both jobs, they just each had they're own forte.

It's my opinion, that while the Workshop forum improvements discussed here are great (I really like them and I'm looking forward to making use of them if implemented), OCR will never be as good at WIPs as VGMix, unless it becomes the MAIN focus of the site... which frankly, I think would be a very bad thing.

This is why a site like VGMix is needed, IMO. Not to replace OCR, but to complement her. I've always gone to OCR for the high-quality stuff (and I'm much more active over here than I ever was at VGMix), but VGMix was always a much more helpful when it came to improving my skillz.

A-RoN

11-21-2009, 08:38 PM

VGMix 2.5 was indeed great. It felt like a living thing, rather than the desolate wasteland VGMix X has become, as you mentioned. Again, it';s draw was it's community, and people's eagerness to learn from each other. That, and insanity.

I've always hated the last part. However, if we can have better mods and admins that can deal tolerantly with more "unorthodox" material (anyone remember the thread of the Doom 2 Remix Demons from Hell), I'd come back.

Mika

11-21-2009, 11:32 PM

I've always hated the last part. However, if we can have better mods and admins that can deal tolerantly with more "unorthodox" material (anyone remember the thread of the Doom 2 Remix Demons from Hell), I'd come back.

Threads like that is one of the reasons people keep coming back to vgmix.

Skrypnyk

11-22-2009, 04:21 AM

LuketheXjesse

11-22-2009, 04:36 AM

DOOM 2 REMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIX word

12-09-2009, 01:01 AM

Guys. (this is virt)

TL;DR, seriously. Naw, Dave just linked me here. I'm going to reply to email when I can sit down at home, but I just wanted to quickly check in.

I'm touched that so many of you miss the site enough to want to make your own revival. I replied to one dude recently with a 10-paragraph email about why I've held off so long, but the short version is that it was on hold while I learned how to manage own my time properly, let alone anyone else's.

tumult made me a deal last year: He is now a professional web developer with bleeding edge skills, who has already seen several commercial projects through to completion. He was concerned that I was pretty much going to die in the next 5 years, and then VGMix would NEVER happen. So, if I could lose 5 pounds a month by next Magfest, development was on like a tauntaun. Here I am, 65 pounds lighter.

So, I've spent the past couple of weeks working on a vastly simplified feature list and specs for each system. It's a weird coincidence that this was brought to my attention today, because I'm hyped up already. It's not that volunteer coders are flaky, and it's not really because we got too busy. It's really because the goddamn thing was just over-scoped, I didn't know the first blinking thing about project management, and I wasn't able to effectively set milestones to work toward.

Before long, everyone's like "DUH-HEYYYYY" wandering around aimlessly, facing a super-imposing feature list with ridiculous webs of interdependency and prerequisites, until they lose interest and their AI returns to "Roam" state. So it goes with genius coders. VGMix 2? Week or so of work. 3 wasn't even reasonable without a damn good plan.

I'm going to be in contact with people who already have perfectly functional sites, such as Dave, and figure out ways to hook together in a way that benefits everyone, rather than trying to go it alone as an "alternative". Many of the features we had planned are now totally unnecessary and add needless complexity.

So... PLEASE don't replicate VGMix 2 feature-for-feature. Not "because it's my baby", but because it's so outdated, and many of the core concepts are vastly, deeply flawed (RPG system? Levels? Reviews AND buzz AND metas? ARGGHGFKZJXBV) and incapable of scaling to handle the amount of content we ended up with. The whole thing gets unmanageable once you have a couple thousand songs.

The real focus now is providing a place for WIP feedback, and tools to help organize competitions and projects. My ultimate goal is to have DoD be its own site running on a common framework, customized to run pretty much how it runs now, and handling all the voting, file organization, and display stuff automatically. If we can reach that benchmark, I think we have a fighting chance of doing something helpful.

Yeah. I'm going to read each page in more detail tonight, but I think you shouldn't be too quick to assume I've forgotten all about VGMix. I just needed a good training montage.

OH YEAH! Also, last weekend, I backed up the entire VGMix2 /songs/ directory (21 gigabytes) to a flash drive and two external hard drives for good measure. As soon as I have time to organize the collection into reasonable chunks, I'm going to release it as a torrent, unless anyone objects.

Otakatt

12-09-2009, 01:35 AM

o.o

All of that? Awesome! (And congrats on the weight loss virt!)

prophetik

12-09-2009, 02:01 AM

tumult made me a deal last year: He is now a professional web developer with bleeding edge skills, who has already seen several commercial projects through to completion. He was concerned that I was pretty much going to die in the next 5 years, and then VGMix would NEVER happen. So, if I could lose 5 pounds a month by next Magfest, development was on like a tauntaun. Here I am, 65 pounds lighter.

holy SHIT. i can't wait to see you at mag, man. you're going to be more sveldt than i am!

i would be pumped as hell to have vgmix back. i wasn't much into the forums, as i said before, but it'd be awesome to have the wip management and review structure back.

12-09-2009, 02:03 AM

Great to hear, Jake, I'm excited for your new healthier living, and am really excited for VGMix to come out as well. :-)

Pope

12-09-2009, 02:18 AM

KyleJCrb

12-09-2009, 03:10 AM

Torrents? Yes please.

Souliarc

12-09-2009, 03:32 AM

Thanks for getting back with us Jake! I'm trying to get back in shape as well. It's a good feeling having that new energy rise up with you every day :)

Great glorious glamorous giggity giggity goo!

herograw

12-09-2009, 04:00 AM

Do we really need yet another remix website? You've heard of http://www.remixsite.org/ I assume, right?

Do we really need yet another electronic artist?

Skrypnyk

12-09-2009, 04:06 AM

zircon

12-09-2009, 04:59 AM

Do we really need yet another electronic artist?

The two aren't even remotely analogous. We already have Remix.kwed, RTS, OCR, VGmix X and remixSite. It's not unreasonable to say that these cover pretty much any possible way of hosting remixes that you could think of. It's not like there are that many possible ways you can post music on a website.

On the other hand, I like what Jake is describing, which isn't just another remix website, but rather functionality specific to WIPs, project management, etc. Of course I'd like to see that stuff on OCR too :)

The Biznut

12-09-2009, 06:46 AM

Tinaddar

12-09-2009, 08:15 AM

Hurray, and Merry Christmas! I just got my present; VGMix2 torrent! Err, at least I will when and if it comes up. And yes: I shall seed it too.

And Jake: congratulations on the weight loss. That's impressive, and I wish I had that kind of will power. I look forward to what comes of this.

KyleJCrb

12-09-2009, 09:26 AM

The two aren't even remotely analogous. We already have Remix.kwed, RTS, OCR, VGmix X and remixSite. It's not unreasonable to say that these cover pretty much any possible way of hosting remixes that you could think of. It's not like there are that many possible ways you can post music on a website.

You forgot OLR (http://www.olremix.org).

Also, people care about remixSite?

ella guro

12-09-2009, 10:16 AM

Great to hear about all this stuff, jake! I'm looking forward to using vgmix in the future, whatever form it's in. Congrats on the weight loss btw.

Xenon Odyssey

12-09-2009, 02:01 PM

You forgot OLR (http://olremix.org)

no one cares about us http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/8800/iconcryd.gif

also, awesome that VGMix will one day see the light again.

Level 99

12-09-2009, 03:02 PM

OH YEAH! Also, last weekend, I backed up the entire VGMix2 /songs/ directory (21 gigabytes) to a flash drive and two external hard drives for good measure. As soon as I have time to organize the collection into reasonable chunks, I'm going to release it as a torrent, unless anyone objects.

OH GOD! You're going to release all my old remixes back into the wild from when I was still an UBERn00b! Actually I think this is amazing that I'll be able to get all the songs I felt at home around when I first got started. Thanks so much for the response, virt. Great to hear about your weight loss (you beat me by five pounds lost, now I'm burning to catch up to you!), and that you're getting settled with all your new life-stuff. Definitely looking forward to whatever you're going to bring out, bro, and I'm looking forward to sharing a beer with you in just a few weeks.

Sindra

12-09-2009, 09:48 PM

VERY nice. It's surprising how just a few paragraphs from the big-man himself can re-invigorate the hope that VGMix will actually return to the limelight. Thanks for the news, Jake.

A-RoN

12-09-2009, 11:03 PM

OH GOD! You're going to release all my old remixes back into the wild from when I was still an UBERn00b! Actually I think this is amazing that I'll be able to get all the songs I felt at home around when I first got started. Thanks so much for the response, virt.

I feel almost in the same boat. However in my case, I found a band that wants to have me in their studio for some of their rock/rap works. No word of a lie. So hopefully we can have v2 of Dyna-Raps and Novel Sound ft. Flea Market Creep (http://www.reverbnation.com/brodiehay) by mid-2010 to replace my crappy home demo mixes. Hate not included as a man can change a lot over the years.

EDIT: And if you don't believe me, check my sig, you'll hear the lastest stuff I got on the unsigned site.

Much love,
Double A

DarkeSword

12-09-2009, 11:19 PM

VERY nice. It's surprising how just a few paragraphs from the big-man himself can re-invigorate the hope that VGMix will actually return to the limelight. Thanks for the news, Jake.
Wow, calling him the "big" man right after he worked so hard to lose all that weight.

Tactless. So tactless. :|

Pope

12-09-2009, 11:22 PM

VERY nice. It's surprising how just a few paragraphs from the big-man himself can re-invigorate the hope that VGMix will actually return to the limelight. Thanks for the news, Jake.

Well I'd say it's pretty common knowledge that we all have big rubbery man crushes on him.

His charisma acknowledges no boundary.

Level 99

12-09-2009, 11:23 PM

Wow, calling him the "big" man right after he worked so hard to lose all that weight.

Tactless. So tactless. :|

You're a jerk, but honestly I would have said the same thing if I saw it first.

He's got a BIG heart, but I bet his hugs aren't any less epic. He kinda is starting to look a little like Yahtzee now that he's lost all that weight. GO JAKE GO, be the svelte, young king of town, my friend.

It's hard to imagine all the gems (and all the utter crap) that is going to be in that VGMix torrent...

Ramaniscence

12-10-2009, 09:16 AM

The two aren't even remotely analogous. We already have Remix.kwed, RTS, OCR, VGmix X and remixSite.

AmigaRemix
remix64

...actually come to think of it I think all the C64 music sites have the same kind of deal

halc

12-13-2009, 02:11 AM

We already have Remix.kwed, RTS, OCR, VGmix X and remixSite. It's not unreasonable to say that these cover pretty much any possible way of hosting remixes that you could think of. It's not like there are that many possible ways you can post music on a website.

i dont think it matters how you get your music posted, but where

OCR is great, but most are looking at at least an eight month wait

remix.kwed is geared towards a specific platform that a lot of people around here have zero interest in
VGMix X is completely fucked
remixSite is (let's admit it) less than stellar
and unfortunately even R:TS seems slow and seldom-trafficked these days

people want instant gratification and you don't get it at any of these places. at VGMix2, you did.

just sayin..

anosou

12-13-2009, 02:18 AM

i dont think it matters how you get your music posted, but where

OCR is great, but most are looking at at least an eight month wait

remix.kwed is geared towards a specific platform that a lot of people around here have zero interest in
VGMix X is completely fucked
remixSite is (let's admit it) less than stellar
and unfortunately even R:TS seems slow and seldom-trafficked these days

people want instant gratification and you don't get it at any of these places. at VGMix2, you did.

just sayin..

This man speaks truth (and makes good music)!

DarkeSword

12-13-2009, 02:25 AM

halc

12-13-2009, 03:04 AM

I'm pretty sure that zircon wasn't saying a new VGMix is a bad idea. :roll:

nor did i insinuate that he did. i have no intention of arguing, just giving my two cents on all these 'alternatives'

zircon

12-13-2009, 03:25 AM

What makes you think you would get instant gratification at a new remix site that is, well, just like remixSite or VGmix X? What's the difference? Just the people that visit it. The way the sites work is exactly the same... that's my point, and that's why I think it's way better to focus on new ideas than just hosting whatever remix people want to upload.

halc

12-13-2009, 04:04 AM

What makes you think you would get instant gratification at a new remix site that is, well, just like remixSite or VGmix X?

i never said i wanted more crappy remix sites, just one that doesn't suck.

aka a functional VGMix

zircon

12-13-2009, 04:21 AM

But you can already simply post remixes at either of those sites. What would you expect a new site to do differently..? Both give you instant gratification already. You post your song and it's there. Both have rating systems and browsing. I guess what I'm asking is, what specific functionality are you looking for that these other sites don't have? As Dave mentioned we are certainly looking to add more functionality to our own WIP forum and potentially integrate that into our database, replicating that kind of "instant post" feature (albeit they wouldn't be actual OCReMixes), but it sounds like you're looking for something else.

LuketheXjesse

12-13-2009, 04:27 AM

One thing about VGMix everyone loves is the community as a whole. And the whole WIP system and stuff, I've heard great things about that.

halc

12-13-2009, 04:59 AM

it's not gratifying if no one is listening. all i'm really trying to get at here is that if you posted a track on VGMix2, people actually listened to it, and many would even take the time to leave a comment or review. the site was aesthetically pleasing, user-friendly, highly customizable, well-trafficked and just plain fun.

remixSite and VGMix X have none of these qualities

prophetik

12-13-2009, 12:44 PM

i agree with halc. it came down to traffic - even with a shitty track you were bound to get a few comments.

liquid wind

12-13-2009, 02:05 PM

remixSite and VGMix X have none of these qualities

Aside from these obvious things, you can't even sign up at VGMixX as of now, it shouldn't be brought into this discussion at all.

KyleJCrb

12-13-2009, 02:12 PM

Yep, and anyone who does have an account can't post any songs, thereby making the site almost entirely defunct.

Level 99

12-14-2009, 04:29 PM

Also, and I know that this is touchy to bring up, but the name VGMix just has the renown of being "that other VG remix site like OCR but not". People knew about it, and if a new site comes up at that address or with that exact name, I know at least a few people will go there based on name-alone. Functionality does factor into long-term popularity and usage, but just like OCR, the community of VGMix is at least half the experience and enjoyment. Not only was the community ridiculously active, but that instant-post/feedback feature was key in keeping people active. The control was in the hands of the artist, and they were more motivated to make things better, and quicker, because of not having to go through any kind of wait besides the regulation posting limit (and of course the one they put on themselves while they create the song).

Now I'm just starting to reminisce, heh. The cycle was a joy in-total: post a mix, get reviewed, factor in reviews to make next song better, and do it again. Talk to reviewers and get more specific feedback, maybe even start a collab, listen to other mixes, learn and review the mixes yourself. There was a very good flow of everything...

Halc nailed it on the nose in my opinion.

K.B.

12-15-2009, 05:20 AM

Since no one else after virt's post has said it, and since before then it wasn't sufficiently emphasized...

Ratings.

Without vgmix's rating system, which enabled me to be completely floored by one of the first half-dozen tracks I listened to, I never would have bothered to sort through the hundreds of tracks on ocr.

I first discovered ocr in '04, downloaded a few mixes, thought they sucked (and they did, to me), and decided 'hell, if that's all this is then it isn't worth my time'. There was no way for me to quickly sort through hundreds of mixes (and that's just among my favorite games, mind you) to find the ones that kicked ass. Same thing happened when I gave this another shot in '07. The only thing that brought me back here was seeing and clicking that vgmix link on the sidebar (which evidently badmouthed a mod or posted porn or something and has since been banned), sorting by rating and downloading from games I knew, and happening upon A Rose For Zelda.

You can't do that on ocr. Ratings don't jive with ocr's goals, and I'm cool with that. But if I hadn't been able to find a ridiculously awesome mix that was also nostalgic (remember, we're talking newb here) within the first twenty minutes of looking and listening, I would have jetted for good. And that would have been a shame. And that's what I fully believe many people do every month upon visiting ocr for the first time. And that is a shame.

A functional vgmix would not be just a wip board or place for project management or anything else so pigeonholed. It would be a complete remix site with a community, different yet mostly akin to ocr. r:ts has done a great job posting sweet mixes after vgmix 2 was killed, and I get a ton out of r:ts, but without the rating system (or a fully integrated community), it's not a full replacement.

Ah, but why not one of the other sites mentioned in this thread? vgmix was it. If it were left for dead, that would be sufficient cause for another to take up the reins. But of vgmix, not of a new site. As has been said, new sites performing the same role of another site results in a splintering of the community... of that community. No offense intended to those who obviously put a lot of time and effort into their sites (check them (http://remixed.vg) out (http://www.remixsite.org/); it's apparent), but should they strive to fill vgmix's shoes then they stand to do as much inadvertent harm as deliberate good. Like analoq said: carving a new niche would be the best for everyone. And if you want vgmix back, well, now that virt's shown that he's serious about this shit, get with him and see how you can help. Because vgmix's niche is still vgmix's.

So, even though some of you don't see a place for "another remix website", I am another one who does. Due to the rating system alone, it would draw in more new people to vg remixing than would ocr by itself. Being fully user-controlled, it would compliment ocr by offering a different means to accomplish the same ideal. Ultimately, it would help advance vg remixing (and all it stands for), thus being a boon for the remix community - including its listeners - as a whole. And that right there is what it's all about.

Regardless, if you read this...
I think the vgm scene does need something like the old vgmix. OCR isn't everyone's cup of tea, and it doesn't accept a few things that I would like to hear (mainly 20 minute prog epics/covers :p).
...and were still unconvinced then you're out of your fucking mind.

Also: thanks, virt. Your post brought all-around awesome news. You have no idea how hard I resisted the urge to first-respond to your post with incoherent, effervescent joy-rambling. And torrents = YES.

PS: everything Tinaddar, Level 99, liquid wind, and Sinewav have said.

PPS halc: I just outdid you in ranting. What now.

Sinewav

12-15-2009, 05:44 AM

Yeah. I'm going to read each page in more detail tonight, but I think you shouldn't be too quick to assume I've forgotten all about VGMix. I just needed a good training montage.

Montage! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIi0vFyqWAc)

OH YEAH! Also, last weekend, I backed up the entire VGMix2 /songs/ directory (21 gigabytes) to a flash drive and two external hard drives for good measure. As soon as I have time to organize the collection into reasonable chunks, I'm going to release it as a torrent, unless anyone objects.

Clearing off hard drive space as we speak.

zircon

12-15-2009, 04:00 PM

The thing is, there are a lot of problems with rating systems. Did you notice how most of the "top tier" stuff on VGmix was either simply from popular ReMixers or popular games? It was the same on Ormgas, which had remix ratings for OCReMixes. There are a ton of amazing remixes here from obscure games, and even on THIS site - which promotes all remixes equally - they get far less attention than the new Mega Man 2, Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6 mixes. And I'm telling you this as someone who has remixed all three of those games and been at the top of the VGmix/Ormgas charts, as well as someone who has remixed much more obscure games (Eternal Champions?) Seriously, ratings are NEVER fair when it comes to game remixes, since the nostalgic games always win out.

Don't get me wrong. I was an avid user of VGmix 2, and it was a lot of fun. But I think some of you are remembering some things wrong. With regards to the 'instant feedback', I don't know about you, but out of the dozens of remixes I had posted there, if anything hit the 3rd or 4th tier right after being released, it basically was assured to not get any new reviews. You'd get your 1-3, and that was it. Also, it tended to be just Rexy and Kwix reviewing everything. I'd say that between #ocrwip and the WIP forums here, the average WIP remix actually gets more feedback than your average submission at VGmix 2.

prophetik

12-15-2009, 04:04 PM

the community's also a lot larger than when 2 was around - like, three or four times larger. i'd be really surprised if the average wip WASN'T getting more reviews nowadays.

zircon

12-15-2009, 04:12 PM

No, I don't really think that's it. It's simply inevitable with that kind of system - when you have exponentially more submissions without a similar increase in reviewers, everything will get reviewed less. Since there was no barrier of entry to VGmix, people had the incentive to simply post everything they could. I mean, that's certainly what I did. But even IF there were a similar increase in reviewers, it's more tiresome to review constantly (ask any judge here) than it is to make music, so no matter what you'll end up with fewer and fewer reviews of the greatly increasing # of mixes.

prophetik

12-15-2009, 04:26 PM

alright, so we're locked in a constant downward spiral, all music will soon suck due to the lack of reviews, everyone break out the razor blades and warm baths. we're screwed, and vgmix won't do anything to help the community. we get what you think already, andy, you don't have to just keep shooting everyone down after they post how they feel =) that's what ppr is for :<

if the system is so fundamentally flawed, what do you propose to do to fix it? realistically, of course.

zircon

12-15-2009, 04:30 PM

Like I said, virt has the right idea. Systems to promote WIP feedback, competitions, project management, etc. We want to implement improvements in those areas as well. I have my own ideas but I'd rather see what Jake comes up with, and work with Dave and the rest of the staff on said improvements here too. Really the reason I'm posting at all is just to remind some of you that VGMix 2 wasn't the pinnacle of remixer feedback since it really did experience a continual drop in reviews, and, thanks to the rating system, many artists, games and remixes got skipped over.

Level 99

12-15-2009, 04:41 PM

It had the right idea with the stats for reviews, though. And those stats being officially tracked and linked to your profile was a good way to start. Even if there are more and more people posting mixes, there will always be people to listen. If a mix is skipped over, that should tell someone that it either didn't stand out enough, or they didn't do something right, or any number of other things. In the case that it was just skipped over due to popularity, that's where the reviews stat comes into play, encouraging people to review pretty much everything.

I'm not a fan of the downward spiral angle, as then you're basically alluding to "hey everyone, don't bother ever attempting to make music or reviews because the reviews wont be enough in the end and almost all music will be glossed over unless you're a mixing guru and do mixes of only the most popular games." I don't buy that at all. The systems may be flawed but they're not self-destructive.

Tinaddar

12-16-2009, 12:12 AM

Really the reason I'm posting at all is just to remind some of you that VGMix 2 wasn't the pinnacle of remixer feedback since it really did experience a continual drop in reviews, and, thanks to the rating system, many artists, games and remixes got skipped over.

You make a lot of good points here. I mean, I'm sure that constantly reviewing can get tedious and tiresome, and I'm not gonna lie and say that I plan to review everything that I hear. However, I do plan on listening to everything, and offering what advice that I can.

I can also see how songs could get overlooked, and that is a real shame. Some of my favorite songs are from games that I've never heard of, yet I will admit that I tend to listen to songs from Final Fantasy or Wild Arms first, with more optimism, and I'll generally like a song better if I already recognize the main tune. That's pretty much human nature though, and difficult to avoid. Putting systems in place to encourage people to review songs that haven't seen many reviews, or to rate songs that haven't seen many ratings would help those more obscure songs get heard.

You're probably right that VGMix 2 wasn't the promised land of feedback, and people are reminiscing and embellishing. Jake seems like a pretty intelligent guy with some good ideas though, and feedback is one of his focuses, at least so far as I understand it. He's seen what works and what doesn't, and has plans to make it better. Further, the community of video game remixing has grown (case in point: I'm here, and I wasn't before), so there are more people to make reviews. So I feel perfectly justified in my optimism. That, and if everybody THINKS that VGMix was a remixer's paradise, then people are more likely to be active reviewers when it is ready. It's like propaganda and peer pressure rolled into one: make them think that everyone is doing it, make them believe that it is true, and they'll follow suit and make it true.

LuketheXjesse

12-16-2009, 01:05 AM

I will say concerning OCR's WIP forum that every time I've posted a WIP, only one person said anything. On one occasion, two people.

zircon

12-16-2009, 01:33 AM

I'm not a fan of the downward spiral angle, as then you're basically alluding to "hey everyone, don't bother ever attempting to make music or reviews because the reviews wont be enough in the end and almost all music will be glossed over unless you're a mixing guru and do mixes of only the most popular games." I don't buy that at all. The systems may be flawed but they're not self-destructive.

But that's just human nature. People will prefer to review mixes from games they know, and are less likely to check out unfamiliar stuff. ANY new system should try to have some encouragement for people to review mixes from unfamiliar games and unfamiliar remixes. If you don't have that, there will inevitably be a review bias. It even happens on OCR where we spotlight everything equally (again compare my Eternal Champions mix with my CT/FF6 mixes from the same time period.) It's a shame when that happens because people miss out on good music.

Also the OCRwip board certainly isn't perfect, not saying it is, but we've made efforts to improve it and would like to continue doing so. It would be nice to not simply give up and say the only way to do it better is a completely new website. We can have both!

Level 99

12-16-2009, 02:26 AM

But that's just human nature. People will prefer to review mixes from games they know, and are less likely to check out unfamiliar stuff. ANY new system should try to have some encouragement for people to review mixes from unfamiliar games and unfamiliar remixes. If you don't have that, there will inevitably be a review bias. It even happens on OCR where we spotlight everything equally (again compare my Eternal Champions mix with my CT/FF6 mixes from the same time period.) It's a shame when that happens because people miss out on good music.

Also the OCRwip board certainly isn't perfect, not saying it is, but we've made efforts to improve it and would like to continue doing so. It would be nice to not simply give up and say the only way to do it better is a completely new website. We can have both!

Haha I'll defer the argument about human nature, as Brad would say, to PPR. However, I will agree that improving the WIP boards and having a new VGMix are not mutually exclusive, and in fact we should have both.

Keyblade

01-29-2010, 09:36 PM

01-29-2010, 10:32 PM

DarkeSword

01-29-2010, 10:40 PM

I'm bumping this thread for the simple fact that this is important for all remixers. Is there a certain way we can:

a1.) Find another domain, because the current one has stonewalled?
a2). Make sure that domain is simpler to use (this is important because VGMix 2 was constantly bombed by hackers?
b.) Find remixers to put their old stuff from VGmix back to the new one (there are several reMixers on this site that had stuff on VGmix but not on OCRemix), and bringing traffic to said site?
c.) Contact Dwelling of Duels (a branch of VGMix itself) and asking Paragon and Rimson (the admins, as far as I know) to help out with this?
d.) The original VGMix was created for the simple fact that to get a remix through for OCR, you had to get through judges. Not to mention they could rate it and find the best songs quick. Perhaps we can contact virt and/or other former mods on the site to spitball the idea?

This is very important to consider, as the amount of content (for both sites) can in fact be doubled and each site can bring their own flavor of methods of music.

Hey, maybe you should read the thread instead of bumping it and basically reiterating a bunch of stuff. If you did you'd realize that virt already posted here about his plans for VGMix and that djpretzel also posted that we're exploring some similar functionality for a Workshop overhaul.

In any case, as much as I like VGMix (I released quite a number of songs on VGMix 2), these forums are not VGMix development forums. If you're serious about doing something about getting that site back up and running, VGMix still has their forums online (http://www.vgmix.com/forum/index.php). Have fun and good luck.