Specific questions about sequencing software

[Kanthos]

My background is someone with a little composing experience, a lot of experience arranging using Finale and Noteworthy Composer, a strong theory background, and a lot of years experience as a pianist, percussionist, and wind player. I don't have the budget now for a midi controller or keyboard as well as a sequencer, and am wanting to get the sequencer. I'll likely do some remixes while learning the sequencer, but I'm mainly looking for tools to create high-quality orchestral music mainly in a classical style for an RPG I'm involved with.

Many of you have a lot of experience working with sequencers, so I'd appreciate any help you can give in light of who I am and what I'm trying to do. Some of the questions here are in lieu of being able to find a Cubase demo to get.

1) Is there anywhere to get a Cubase demo? I've downloaded demos already for the other sequencers mentioned in various threads here, but can't find one on the Cubase site or elsewhere.

2) How do FLStudio and Cubase compare? Is it worth the extra money to get Cubase, or save the cash for a decent set of orchestral samples?

3) Is it worthwhile to get Cubase SX over SL?

4) As someone used to reading music notation, does that affect the choice of FLStudio vs. Cubase?

Thanks for your help!

[sgx]

I wouldn't begin with Cubase. It's complicated and probably has a lot more features than you will need for a long time. I don't think they provide demos of them either.

FL is good, but I'd also consider Reason and Cakewalk Project5 because they both come with a bunch of pretty nice orchestral samples.

[Compyfox]

1) Is there anywhere to get a Cubase demo? I've downloaded demos already for the other sequencers mentioned in various threads here, but can't find one on the Cubase site or elsewhere.

Go to www.steinberg.net (or com) and browse on their FTP. If you can't find a demo there, then write them an email or call the customer support and ask for a demo. I know there are demos,cause I have one with Halion 2, Halion 3 and the Waldorf Edition.

2) How do FLStudio and Cubase compare? Is it worth the extra money to get Cubase, or save the cash for a decent set of orchestral samples?

Cubase is way longer in business than FLStudio. Both tools are completely different in terms of approach. While FL has built in samplers like tracker (for example for drum pattern) and was first aimed at a 808 and 303 emulation (FL2 and FL3) it grew into a full fledged studio with VST/VSTi support later.

It depends... what are your preferences. I for example use Cubase since v1.4 on the IBM PC while it was still aimed at "hardware only" and grew up with it. It can be a multitracker only, a pure software synth engine, I can use hardware/software/wav tracks, I do engineerings with it, etc. The possibilities are endless.

Others might tell you the same about FL but still you have limitations. The WAV multitrack engine for example is fairly new and still a bit limited, you have no surround support (if you want to use it sometime), etc. Cubase is also shipped fairly blank (well it has 2 awesome synths by Waldorf, and SX4 is on the front door, too), while FL comes with a bunch of stuff "bundled".

It's really up to you. But I prefer Cubase over everything else due to the possibilities I have - I'm not limited in any way.

3) Is it worthwhile to get Cubase SX over SL?

SX has a couple of more features than SL. For example: Surround, more VSTi slots, a couple of plugins that're exclusive to SX are not available, etc. There's a datasheet over at the Steinberg page that you can read for yourself.

The worthwhile difference for you might be the price however. SL is only 399,- if I'm not mistaken, while SX is 799,-.

4) As someone used to reading music notation, does that affect the choice of FLStudio vs. Cubase?

It can. FL has no notation editor, Cubase has.


In the end it's up to you. Hope I could help.

[ubernym]

When I started writing computer music I was using Cakewalk 7 and soundfonts. All I ever did was load Cakewalk, load my soundfonts, and write all my music with their (very limited) notation editor. It was the only thing I was comfortable working with. In fact, I was so uncomfortable with pian roll that I eventually bought Finale 2004 and started using that instead. I could write some really cool stuff, but couldn't really get it to sound good without a real orchestra playing it. I'm a wiz at notation, but it wasn't getting me anywhere with computer production. People kept trying to convince me that piano roll was the better way and I didn't believe them. I just couldn't figure it out.

Recently I started using Fruity Loops, which doesn't have a notation editor. I was forced to use the piano roll. But I must say, I'm never going back. Now that I've actually learned how to use it, I LOVE the piano roll. It's so versatile, so flexible. I highly recommend it.

If you can stand to learn just using the piano roll, go with Fruity Loops; it's cheaper and quite powerful.

Of course if you're dead set on using a notation editor, get a program like Cubase or Sonar. And if you do get one of those programs and do most of your editing in notation, I still recommend tweaking your edits in piano roll, especially for velocities. Velocities will make or break your mix.

[zircon]

Ah, another convert ;) FLStudio users unite!

[Arcana]

Ah, another convert ;) FLStudio users unite!

FLStudio users are the majority. Frankly, I'd be interested to see more than one person start using Project5.

:mrgreen:

[realpolitik]

I wouldn't begin with Cubase. It's complicated and probably has a lot more features than you will need for a long time. I don't think they provide demos of them either.

FL is good, but I'd also consider Reason and Cakewalk Project5 because they both come with a bunch of pretty nice orchestral samples.

omg teh sgx project5 plug ohnoes

FL is a great starting point, but you'll need to get better samples and pick up some VSTs or soundfonts if you want to make some decent sounds.

[The Vagrance]

FL is a great program but to be completely honest I feel that Reason and Ableton have a much better workflow and I always get better sounding stuff out of them a lot easier too, but in the end it just depends on the person.

[Compyfox]

Why not simply call OCR the "inofficial Fruity Loops tutorial and support" board?!


THERE IS MORE IN OUT THERE IN THE WORLD THAN FRIGGIN FRUITY LOOPS AND REASON!
Not to mention that all questions were answered - so stop it already to "convert him/her".
*geez!*

[Arcana]

Why not simply call OCR the "inofficial Fruity Loops tutorial and support" board?!


THERE IS MORE IN OUT THERE IN THE WORLD THAN FRIGGIN FRUITY LOOPS AND REASON!
Not to mention that all questions were answered - so stop it already to "convert him/her".
*geez!*

Well Compy, there are a bunch of us who use Reason, and despite what anyone says, a decent handful of extremely talented people use Cubase, Ableton, and Cakewalk products.

The unfortunate reality is that Image Line has price-cut the competition while providing a competent product, which has attracted people from this community (which consists of people mostly of ages 13-19 who don't have big incomes).

It's funny from my perspective to see you spaz out like this, but a lot of other people get offended. I can get annoyed a bit at the FL evangelizing that goes on around here too but just keep up the discussion and talking about the other alternatives and some people will listen.

Cakewalk Project5 will break through yet. If it ran on Mac, I'd try it.

[V___]

Ah, another convert ;) FLStudio users unite!

FLStudio users are the majority. Frankly, I'd be interested to see more than one person start using Project5.

:mrgreen:

Iv got the demo installer on my desktop at home, i keep meaning to try it out. From what iv seen of it, very fun workflow.

[LooPKiD]

FL Studio has what it takes baby! :wink: ...
I also love FL Studio, don't want to switch to nothing else :P , (Maybe Pro Tools :D )...
But I'm too poor, so FL it is :) ...

[Compyfox]

This...

2) How do FLStudio and Cubase compare? Is it worth the extra money to get Cubase, or save the cash for a decent set of orchestral samples?

...was the only question regarding FruityLoops. You really make a "FL Crusade" out of EVERYTHING.

Thanks for killing this thread, folks.


FruityLoops - LOL!

[OverCoat]

Compy, you're basically making yourself sound like an overzealous Cubase nutjob. It's frightening.

p.s. lots of people use FruityLoops here. What's your point? I don't make a big deal out of why the hell no one uses Renoise.

[The Vagrance]

He does have a point, but FL is cheaper than most of the rest so naturally it'll have a large group of followers. While its a lot more powerful than people give it credit, whenever I get the money I'm going to upgraqde to Ableton because it does seem to be the Sequencer to beat as everything you do in it is on the fly and its very easy to get ideas down. I tried playing with the demo version and I LOVED it.

[Compyfox]

I'm just stating the obvious, as it happens really everytime if there is a question about "what sequencer to get", even if it's a specific question about Finale/Sonar/Cubase - there're ALwAYS "FL Crusaders" who hijack and kill the thread.

I can only say it again... why not simply call this board "Inofficial Reason and Fruity Loops Support Board"?


I sound like a whiny bitch? You know what? I don't f*cking care - go to unmod and start a new thread about it. Truth hurts.

INTERNET - SERIOUS - BUSINESS

[Arcana]

It's a thread about sequencing software. People are going to talk about sequencing software.

When a statement like, "FLStudio users unite" when it's rather obvious that FLStudio users are already the majority, some people just kind of want to go :roll:.

This *is* a religious war, though -- which sequencer to use. It's like your "Which is the best OS" war.

[Yoozer]

Use a PC. Use a Mac. Use a wax cylinder for all I care. Linkin Park isn't better for using ProTools just as The White Stripes isn't better for using an 8-track reel-to-reel. If you sit there and spew forth how your PC is faster and cheaper than my Mac, all you're really saying is "Hey, look at me! I'm not making music tonight!"

[Kanthos]

From what I've read of the Remixing forum before I posted this thread, I'm not surprised at the direction this is headed. Anyway, ignoring the obvious influences of people pushing their favourite product without really being able to compare to others...

1) I'm not the kind of person who would avoid Cubase in favour of FLStudio simply because Cubase has a higher learning curve. I'm new to digital music but not to music as a whole, and I'm a 24-year-old grad student in computer science. If I can handle reading technical papers about artifical intelligence, I can pick up what I need to learn these tools, given enough time.

2) My thought with respect to a notation editor was to make use of Finale PrintMusic which I already have and am extremely quick at using, do a midi import into a sequencer, and retouch/apply soundfonts. I should've worded my question to suggest that, not that I'd intend to use Cubase's built-in notation editor. The general concensus seems to be that piano roll or other forms of entry are faster than notation and produce better results.

3) Compy, you mentioned that FLStudio's wave editing capabilities were limited. In what way(s)?

4) You also mentioned SX4. Would it be worth holding out for that? Actually, I'd probably not end up waiting anyway since I should finish my degree (and hence not qualify any longer for the academic pricing) by the end of August.

5) Compy or others, any reason for preferring Cubase over Sonar, other than that you've been using Cubase for so long?

6) I also tried to find a demo for Cubase, but Steinberg has pulled all demos off their site now. You have to spend $20 on their USB protection key to even access the demos. A local music retailer confirmed this. I also couldn't find a way to contact their support without being a registered user. I think I'd need some more convincing on why Cubase would be better than the best of whatever products I'm able to demo before I'd be willing to spend a lot on it.

[Compyfox]

2) My thought with respect to a notation editor was to make use of Finale PrintMusic which I already have and am extremely quick at using, do a midi import into a sequencer, and retouch/apply soundfonts. I should've worded my question to suggest that, not that I'd intend to use Cubase's built-in notation editor. The general concensus seems to be that piano roll or other forms of entry are faster than notation and produce better results.

My experience with Finale wasn´t that great in terms of "saving MIDI". It's a bit troublesome, but possible. The most work you'll have though, is changing velocity. Else it's fairly acourate in terms of export/import into other sequencers. For this pupose, you can really use FL however. Especially if you want to apply Soundfonts only (as it has a built in SF2 player and tons of users in here can help you out - THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU CAN START YOUR CRUSADE IN HERE AGAIN!). But if you want to do more spreaded material, I recommend something else.

3) Compy, you mentioned that FLStudio's wave editing capabilities were limited. In what way(s)?

First of all, it's Wave capabilities are fairly new. You can can apply some vocals to an arrangement, but I found it fairly intuitive (IMO). Others might tell you something else. But what I tried so far... Recording is not simple, arranging is difficult too. And automation? Oh well... This is why Cubase and Samplitude are so great in this section. They're aimed at Multitracking. Fruity Loops is still in Kindergarden in this section. Not that you "can't" use it. But it still lacks something.

Again... others might tell you different - for sure. *oh golly will I love the flamewar!*

4) You also mentioned SX4. Would it be worth holding out for that? Actually, I'd probably not end up waiting anyway since I should finish my degree (and hence not qualify any longer for the academic pricing) by the end of August.

Well SX4 won't arrive till Q4 2006. So this is still a bit far from now. So you can go with SE3/SL3/SX3 without prob.

5) Compy or others, any reason for preferring Cubase over Sonar, other than that you've been using Cubase for so long?

This is a very tricky question which can result in yet another flamewar. Cubase is a very high standard, but lacks some support lately. This doesn't mean that it's "bad" - no... it just depends on what preferences you have.

I also have to add here that Steinberg are the creators of the VST technology and Sonar is still hovering around with MFX (MIDI FX) and DXi. Cubase however can use the VST technology and the DX technology (so it'S a bit more versatile). Else they pretty much have the same stab at creating music. One tool isa bit better in one section, but less powerful in another, and the same applies to the other sequencer, too.

In the end, it's up to you what you use. However Cakewalk agressively tries to get some customers. They recently released a software/hardware bundle with an Edirol USB Module for 475Euro which includes Cakewalk Sonar Studio. Steinberg however still has Cubase System 4 with Cubase SE and a hardware module for around 300-400bucks. Not to mention the "Studio Case II" with tons of bundled "LE versions" of most of their house-internal VSTi's. BUT... Cubase SE is limited in terms of VSTi usage (only 8 if I can still remember), the audiochannels are run down massively and a lot of functions and internal plugins are missing (I'm not sure on the notation, but you should better check on that). Nothing that can be waged up with free plugins however.

So this might be another solution, too.

6) I also tried to find a demo for Cubase, but Steinberg has pulled all demos off their site now. You have to spend $20 on their USB protection key to even access the demos. A local music retailer confirmed this. I also couldn't find a way to contact their support without being a registered user. I think I'd need some more convincing on why Cubase would be better than the best of whatever products I'm able to demo before I'd be willing to spend a lot on it.

Well you could try to get Cubase SE as Demo. As far as I know it doesn't use any dongle (USB stick) at all. Also, that with the "support hotline" isn't true. You can still call Steinberg even though you don't have a product registered there if you got some questions. Just ask yourself through.


More convincing is a bit difficult. I can only say that Steinberg with Cubase, M-Audio ProTools and eMagic Logic are the most powerful and most versatile Studio Standards. If you want to do music on a hobby basis, you can nearly go with everything that's in your pricerange. But if you want to go Professional sometime, or also to an engineering school. You won't get around Logic/Cubase/ProTools.


And no, I'm not getting paid for this.

[tgfoo]

5) Compy or others, any reason for preferring Cubase over Sonar, other than that you've been using Cubase for so long?

Personal preference. In the end, alot so sequencers pretty much all do the same things (though, some do somethings better than others) it's just a matter workflow, the user interface, learning curves, cost... and that differentiate them. When I use a PC for music, I used Sonar. Is it any better or worse than Cubase or FL? No, I just liked it more, that's all.

[zircon]

First of all, it's Wave capabilities are fairly new. You can can apply some vocals to an arrangement, but I found it fairly intuitive (IMO). Others might tell you something else. But what I tried so far... Recording is not simple, arranging is difficult too. And automation? Oh well... This is why Cubase and Samplitude are so great in this section. They're aimed at Multitracking. Fruity Loops is still in Kindergarden in this section. Not that you "can't" use it. But it still lacks something.

Again... others might tell you different - for sure. *oh golly will I love the flamewar!*

This is all bunk. Compy, simply put, you don't use FLstudio. I do. No, it's not as fully featured as, say, Pro Tools in terms of customizing your options. But it's pretty damn good at what it does. I've done numerous songs with recordings in them and I've found FLStudio to be more than adequate; conversely I've also used sequencers like Cubase and Logic and I didn't like them nearly as much. Automation is very fully featured as well (there are multiple ways of doing it). There are three different ways of doing it, as a matter of fact!

Don't give this guy the wrong impressions please. Independent artists all around the world have put out professional releases with a wide range of sequencers, from things like Garageband, to FLStudio, to Tracktion.

[Arcana]

But Compyfox did give a fair assessment at the end of his most recent post:

More convincing is a bit difficult. I can only say that Steinberg with Cubase, M-Audio ProTools and eMagic Logic are the most powerful and most versatile Studio Standards. If you want to do music on a hobby basis, you can nearly go with everything that's in your pricerange. But if you want to go Professional sometime, or also to an engineering school. You won't get around Logic/Cubase/ProTools.

That does not contradict what Zircon said about FLStudio.

It's nice to know that FLStudio has its defenders as well as its detractors, but of all of the sequencing software mentioned on OCRemix, FLStudio frankly needs the least defending. FLStudio's value for money really speaks for itself, and it's mentioned all over these forums. Occasionally, people mention Reason as #2, but I think that it's a pretty far, far down the list #2.

[suzumebachi]

the problem with Reason now is it's so ridiculously outdated, and Propellerheads doesn't appear to be doing anything about it either. eventually it'll go the way of ReBirth.

this coming from someone whose first OC ReMix was done in Reason. it was acceptable 4 years ago, but it hasn't changed at ALL since then. FL on the other hand has made LEAPS and BOUNDS in improvement, which is why it's so popular today.

[Catlein]

I can only say it again... why not simply call this board "Inofficial Reason and Fruity Loops Support Board"?


Because there's no point in excluding the few people around here who happen to use Cubase or Sonar or what have you. It's well known that most people here are hobbyists and don't want to dish out 10,000,000,000$ for some high-end production studio.

So doesn't it just stand to reason (lolz) that most of the discussion around here would be oriented towards the cheaper audio solutions like FL or Reason?

There's still the people that use other stuff, so they can discuss that amongst themselves. It'd be useless to limit the board to FL-only discussion. Plus, nobody is trying to put a cap on your own crusade to promote Cubase by touting other software. The people asking which programs are good have brains. (Most of em', anyway.) They will decide for themselves after reading Zircon's FL posts or your Cubase posts which is best for them.

I don't see why you're having seizures, here.

[Compyfox]

I can only say it again, every question about sequencers, and even if it's specific about Cubase/Sonar, turns out into a "Get FL instead" crusade. So it's not me that starts this crap. I just give you an insight on "other tools" outside of FL.


And you know what, zirc? I don't give a crap about FL. I don't use it, cause I don't like it. It's unintuitive, it limits me. If you want to take it into your grave with you - so be it. But for gods sake - LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE WITH YOUR "Pro's use this and that" crap, if you don't even know what Pro's really use or what "standards" they have (or the AES declared). Just my 2c.


FFLeviatan has it's answers and if he has more Q's about Cubase, I'm glad to answer them. Do "your crusade" somewhere else, please.

[Arcana]

So doesn't it just stand to reason (lolz) that most of the discussion around here would be oriented towards the cheaper audio solutions like FL or Reason?

The funny thing is that Reason isn't actually all that cheap.

And gentlemen, play nice. If the original poster has any more questions, then we can reply to them. If we're going to have a slugfest about sequencers, we can do it elsewhere.

[Legion303]

3) Compy, you mentioned that FLStudio's wave editing capabilities were limited. In what way(s)?

First of all, it's Wave capabilities are fairly new. You can can apply some vocals to an arrangement, but I found it fairly intuitive (IMO). Others might tell you something else. But what I tried so far... Recording is not simple, arranging is difficult too.

I'm surprised to hear you saying this.

I also find recording in FL to be something of a pain in the ass, which is why I still use other programs for live recording, but I can't believe you just made an argument based on how new FL's wave handling capabilities are when you should know that doesn't make a difference, unless people are finding bugs. To my knowledge, based on the FL message boards, that just isn't the case. Broad statements like that only weaken your other, better arguments against FL's wave functionality.

I've used and been impressed with FL since version 1, because of its power and elegant interface (admittedly much more power since version 4 than older versions). Its price point is also incredibly low for what it does, but I used FL even when I was pirating it and could have used anything I wanted (in fact, I tried Reason and found it sucked for my needs). You know I started out on trackers (Scream Tracker 3, boyee!), so ease-of-use and learning curves aren't the reason I like FL.

In the end, it's going to come down to what people can afford to get unless you advocate piracy, which you don't. Many people, including me, feel that FL is the best you can get for a small amount of money. It might not be the world's "studio standard," but most of us are just hobbyists, not studio engineers. Hell, why not recommend Nuendo?

This isn't a holy war. If someone asks for recommendations, present your favorite software and point out its merits, but don't blow up at others who do the same. You know I respect your opinion quite highly, but read back over your posts here and tell me you haven't gone too far.

Tchuss.

-steve

[Kanthos]

Well, I've finally got the software I ordered (*mumbles about academic pricing being good, but the special orders taking *forever*). I did go with FL Studio XXL for two reasons: one was the price, and the other was that I'm wary about buying a piece of software (Cubase, in this case) that I can't demo first, or at least watch someone else use. They won't do any demos now unless you buy the copy protection key first, and I don't like the idea of paying $30 for something I may only use for a couple days.

Anyway, I put the extra cash saved on a sequencer towards EWQL Symphonic Orchestra, so now it's time to actually write something.