Metroid Prime 2 'Stir of Echoes' RESUB 11/25

[avaris]

Hola, this is my first post along with my first mix to the site. I am just an amateur, who has been arranging and making tunes for around 4 years now. All self taught. As like most noobies I've been listening to stuff on this site for over a year, and I finally got a full version of fruity loops again,so now I am able to start making music again after a year long break. This remix is of the most bad ass intro song ever to Metroid Prime 2 Echoes. I accept any and all criticism, and I'm hoping to be the first to get this one posted on the site, although after spending some considerable time on this mix I can see why nobody has done it yet, the arrangement and room for interpertation are insane. It is after all just an intro song.


This is the source song
Click here to listen to Metroid Prime2 Echoes Intro (http://media.putfile.com/Metroid-Prime-Echoes)

Update 8/6
Click here to listen to Metroid-Prime2-Stir-of-Echoes-OC-Remix (http://media.putfile.com/Metroid-Prime2-Stir-of-Echoes-OC-Remix)

[Radiowar]

not really getting a sense of rhythm here. piano interrupts the heartbeat thing pretty suddenly, then it is interrupted again by stuff. The piano needs something other than an echo on it so it doesn't seem so harsh. The lead instrument that plays around 0:21 is way too murky. I don't know what I'm supposed to be hearing but what sounds like the melody is drowned out by its own decay and the marimba-ish thing.

I'm hearing a lot of instruments suddenly appearing then disappearing way too loudly.

I recognize the source, I'm not really familiar with it, but I can tell there isn't a whole lot of arrangement. The melody shifts 3 or 4 times throughout in seemingly random intervals.

I think I'm rambling. Here are some things to think about:
- work on entries, at least change the volumes because the quiet-loud disparity is huge (and add some reverb to that piano, it's wayyy too dry)
- structure, to say that this mix doesn't go anywhere would be inaccurate because it goes pretty much everywhere and back more than a few times with no sense of direction.
- and finally, arrangement. not hearing much interpretation.

[The Vagrance]

First off I'd like to say thank you, many newbies here will make a post asking where to host their mix, not thank anyone for help, post their mix, get 2 or 3 comments, not comment on anyone elses mix, then complain about not getting enough comments. Many thanks for commenting on other people's mixes instead of just hoping people would comment on yours.

Now, onto the remix:
I've never heard the original source music (well, I don't think, I recognize the Metroid theme here and there) so I'm not sure how much is original and how much isn't.

This stuff kinda reminds me of that sound collage style music, many people claim its brilliant, however I am not one of those people. You need to give some sense of rhythm, a light kick would fit in perfect for an ambiant feel.

I like that really wet bell sounding instrument that comes in at about 0:21. The piano sound is really dry and crappy though, get a good piano soundfont then reverb that mofo, and if it doesn't sound good then layer it multiple times. The miramba thing sounds pretty good, I actually like the reverb.

As for the song structure, I can't really tell if this song has any. It needs some amount of structure. It reminds me a lot of old Jazz stuff (Thelonious Monk - 'Round Midnight is one of my favorite songs right now) but your arrangement comes off as just lazy rather than bad ass, add some tension and release to your song.

Overall, there's something oddly redeeming about this mix to me, probably because I'm into this sorta stuff right now. There's just so much about it that should be there and should be replaced instead though. A good dark start, but needs something more.

[avaris]

thanks guys, im trying to implement all of those things right now, it'll take me a little bit but I've already made various changes

[Radiowar]

Just a quick note if you update your link you should probably bump the thread or else nobody will see it.

So on to the mix..

First think I noticed is that the pads come in too early. It doesn't seem to be playing in time with the piano...the piano seems to be playing just randomly.

eww bass. Wrong note. Made worse by the fact that it is constantly repeating.

From what I remember, not a lot has been changed from the first version of this. The entrances are still as awkward as they were, volume disparity is still too much, only now there is a bass playing the wrong note throughout the whole thing. Also noticed clipping around 2:00. Could just be my crappy headphones though.

Everything seems random here. Still needs structure and also needs to not have 40 seconds of silence at the end.

[Splunkle]

I <3 the metroid prime 2 opening theme, so I'm rather familar with the soruce. It is one of those themes that seems deceptively simple, but is actually really freaking pro. But enough of this, onto the mix itself:

Timing is definatly strange. Check your time signature, and make sure everything is coming in when it should. Something is off, but I can't put my finger on it.

Also the mix is REALLY empty. But not in a good way. If you are going for that ambient soundscape thing, fill it up with the appropriate backing stuff - light percussion (hevay filtering is your freind), paddy things, or random sound FX - just try not to make it sound to corny. Also remember that Reverb is usually very important in an ambient song - so make sure its sounds good and consistant. Else it will sound disjointed.

As for arrangement, you haven't really done much here. There is a bit of nice stuff going on at the end with the piano, but that needs to happen earlier, and there needs to be more of it. I know its hard, because the theme is kinda crazy, but keep at it until you get some results.

With hard work, this could be awesome. Keep at it.

[avaris]

thankx guys, I am totally revamping some stuff, it is going to sound completely different, many new ideas, I've completely rearranged the strings, what I have in mind after listening to you guys is going to take me couple of days to implement...this is hard work, but hopefully it'll pay off

[BreakTekk]

The first thing I think when I listen to this remix is that I would love to hear some drums on this. Hell, I'm probably going to put this on my ipod and actually drum to it, I want to hear the drums so bad. This song just needs that pop that a kick drum would give and the groove of busy ghost notes on a snare.

Another thing I noticed, which initially manifested itself as vague sense of wrongness, was that this song felt a lot like an intro. All of the empty space felt like a perfect set up for something that never arrives. Actually, something kind of arrives around 1:40, but its does't have the punch necessitated by a minute forty of intro and only sticks around until 2:12 or so. I kept thinking "This is gonna break open like crazy," and then it never did. Like Splunkle said, fill things up a bit when everything kicks in, and stretch it out for a while.

My final comment on this piece is about the piano at the beginning. It fit perfectly, and should've kept going on for a while. It also didn't come back anywhere else in the song. The beginning of the song is where you set the tone, and yours was misleading. The piano should have a presence throughout the song.

I really like the foundation you've created here, and I hope you keep pursuing this piece.

[avaris]

alrighty, just finished the updated version. This is a major revamping, I added 2mins of material, which includes some rearrangemnt, fx(rainstick, voice samples, and a funky waterbass at the end, oh yeah and a friggin beat! Those are my own lyrics in the song, I just used the standard voice creatr on the fl studio, i really wanted some voice samples from neon genesis evangelion but i couldn't find any for the life of me.

i updated the link uptop

[Radiowar]

The intro still sounds wrong. The whistle-ish thing goes for 5 bars before the piano comes in so that's why it sounds wrong. Plus, the rhythm that it establishes is too different from the one that the piano plays. Then on top of that the piano barely gets halfway through the second bar before a huge pad comes in. I don't even know if it's a bar because there is no sense of time. That problem happens over and over throughout the song so you need to work on that, instead of just adding more instruments...

I think the rainstick is too loud. It's a cool idea though. Could use some reverb or something. Piano still needs to be less fake. Pads are a too loud.

It sounds really muddy but it isn't too bad until 1:12. There's just too much happening. The beat you added doesn't really help anything. It sounds cluttered and off key.

The entrance at 2:07 is still too loud! it's been like this since the first version and i think I pointed it out. The voice samples are bugging me...if you have a mic you could just record yourself whispering at least.

To be honest I kind of stopped listening around there. This song doesn't really go anywhere it just repeats certain parts at random intervals. It's too aimless. Needs to have a point to it.

[avaris]

Alrighty, I submitted my update too early last night. Went back through and cleaned up and added. Worked on sound volume, some basic arrangment errors. There are two big things I need some feedback and a lil bit of help on for this mix.
1. beat, not my greatest strength i know that
2. direction, not my greatest strength i know that
The beat is taken from the source, though i took some of the notes in the main beat, bc when it comes in during my mix, everything is slow, so i don't want a beat to come in fast and take over, I do that later in the song when everything really picks up

[BreakTekk]

This is an definate improvement over the last version. This one is a lot more structured and seems to have a good flow. The best part of the song was from 0:39 to 1:16, the new piano stuff sounded great there and really seemed to work with everyhthing else. However, there's still a ways to go on this mix.

You could probably have two measures or so with just the heartbeat and rain stick to create the atmosphere before bringing in the piano. The rain stick, while a good idea, should really only be in the intro. After that it just distracts from the rest of the song.

The reason I said the best portion of the song stopped at 1:16 is because that beat doesn't work. At all. It works with the source tunes, but doesn't feel at home with your melody. The beat and the melody are supposed to work together, not distract from each other. Having a beat is good, but you would be better off with no beat than this beat.

Like I said, the new piano stuff really helps, but it isn't flawless just yet. The two piano notes at 1:39 sound really dischordant and out of place. There were also a couple of places where it seemed rushed coming in as well(but I don't know if it actually is rushed or if that is just an effect of that damn beat).

The robotic voice was creepy. Like Radiowar said, record yourself if you have a mike. If you don't like your voice or don't have a mike, go to the Remixing forums and request someone else to do it. There's also a really creepy background synth thing that runs from 1:55 to 2:22, it sounds like a robotic monster of death opening its jaws. You might want to cut this out.

The synth from 3:10 to 3:44 is too loud, and the timing feels a little late, but again, this may be a product of the beat.

[Radiowar]

Pads at the beginning are off key or something. Rainstick sounds better.

Entrance is still too sudden! I don't know what's going on here.

So far it is sounding more structured...but that isn't saying much. Still feels too random. It's probably because the pads are out of key.

And the beat doesn't fit. This mix sounds like it's trying to be atmospheric while the drums are trying to be uptempo or whatever. Doesn't work.

Too random. You need to pick a direction the song is going in and stick with it...

[avaris]

UPDATE 7/17: ok, making a list and checking it twice to see which updates are wrong and which are right
(new rmx posted uptop)

1.took away robotic voice samples and added a real voice sample from Minority Report (it's not Tom Cruise) also changed tone of freakish voice
2. Took out the beat completely in the first part of the song(best thing I ever did besides taking a shower), and took out hihats in 2nd part
3. added and changed a few notes here and there to give the song more flow and cohesive thought
4. changed chord structure on the pads that come in on 0:01 (radiowar u were right they were slightly off, good ear)
5. added low bass dist guitar in breakout, lowered volume of waterBubble bass
6. BreakTekk, the strings in the 2nd half of the song were off by 1/4 a sec fixed that shit
7. changed volumes all over the place, lowered the volume on many of the entrances (thanks again to Radiowar)
8. thought about an official name...guess i'll sleep on it

[Radiowar]

Beginning is off key. I don't know whether the dissonance is intentional or not. Sounds unintentional though, so you're gonna have to fix that...

Entrances are a lot better now! Pads still sound off key especially around 1:30 and 1:37...and 1:44. Starts to get really messy after that. Pads are overdone. You can't really force atmosphere.

Transition at 2:15 would be better if the pads weren't off key. The marimba synth you're using plays some wrong notes I think.

Melody that comes in at 3:07 is out of time with the piano and the drums and bass which are also out of time with each other...

This is getting there, some issues with wrong notes and wrong keys and mixed up timing. Structure is slowly developing so that's good. Or maybe I've heard this so many times I'm just getting used to it. Whatever. Keep it up.

[Splunkle]

Okay, while the heartbeat kick drum is nice, some may disagree with the way its half out of sync with the piano. But I like it.

Vocal sample struck me as cheesy. Others may like it though, so if it rocks your boat, leave it.

Very nice drop into the main theme... but then it just kinda stays there. Where are we going? Sure, a lot of ambiant tracks don't have that much direction, but that melody there is full of direction. It goes somewhere... but the track doesn't follow. It just repeats. =/

Don't be afraid to write a whole bit to follow on form the introduction. Even if its all orginal, its interpretation, so its all good. Hell, its to be encoraged. Write some nice bridgey bits for that piano to go between the parts, so it doens't sound so disjointed.

Mad props go to that backing thing - sounds like some kind of FM xylophone, but I can't be sure.

Hey! the ending has direction. The two pads kinda swell up a bit much... you might want to compress them a little.

But the track just kinda ends. 'Salgood, since this is a WIP, but make sure you fix it.

Summary: you have the atmosphere thing fairly downpat, but work on the direction a bit more.

[BreakTekk]

Beginning is off key. I don't know whether the dissonance is intentional or not. Sounds unintentional though, so you're gonna have to fix that...


Didn't hear that at all, the beginning sounded spot on to me.

Pads still sound off key especially around 1:30 and 1:37...and 1:44. Starts to get really messy after that. Pads are overdone.

I didn't hear the offkeyness at those points as well. I dunno; I could be hallucinating, but I don't think so.

Anyways, this keeps getting better, and I dig it. The only thing I have to say about the first minute is that you should ditch the voice samples. Altogether. Don't improve your voice samples, leave them out.

It gets a little too stop and go for me from 1:00 to 1:55. From 1:00 to 1:17 goes together really nicely, as well as from 1:19 to 1:35 and from 1:38 to 1:54. My suggestion with this is just to take out from 1:19 to 1:35, but that's just me.

The synth notes at 1:55, 1:59, and 2:03 did nothing but lessen the effect of the piano.

The bass is bad. It sounds bad the whole time, but REALLY doesn't work from 3:07 onwards. It completely contrasts with all the synths you use during that period. The uptempo is nice, but can't really be commented on until the bass is gone.

This thing is progressing in strides, keep up the diligence(it is quite impressive).

[avaris]

The backing Xylophone sound, is actually echo bottles from sytrus about 2 octaves down, and I haven't attached any other reverb or chorus to it either.

This song, after some painstaking observement, is in the key of mainly C(2whole steps, 1 half, 3 wholes, 1 half[B is never present]) and then at small odd parts is the key of Ab(same step sequence) The pads starting at 0:01 were not in any key, I had done some crazy arpeggio and chopping, i included them bc i liked the sound, but now they are in the key of C. The pads from 1:30 to 1:37 the B note made it's only appearance of the piece hence the odd sound, even though it was in key. I gave those pads some Robatussin so now they're ok. Now from 1:44 till the breakout, the pads were in Ab and the piano in C, so I switched the piano the key of Ab to keep with the flow of the piece. The key of Ab only appears at the end of melodies and arrangements. The drums were putting the wrong emphasis in certain parts of the guitar. I tweaked the everything around 3:00, where the rhythm get's lost in the with the piano coming in, so I changed the rhythm of the piano. I don't know if I am goin to create my own piano in the beginning part where it is repitative/stopNgo, or just cut it shorter. I might make a piano solo and stick it at the end of the piece. I am goin to sleep on all that, and it's too late to attempt anything like that, I also haven't gotten to those synths around 2:00 yet. But, I almost put in some great william schatner voice clips.....just kidding. Well the update mainly includes all the chord changes and adjustments(that sucked), and no voice samples(see how it sounds without em).
This is one of the hardest arrangements to work with, especially after taking a year's hiatus from doin anything with music, but you guys have been a big help in getting this mix where it is today. Thnkx

update posted up top

[BreakTekk]

I'm am undeniably stoked that there are no voice samples in here. I mean, like, woah.

Alright, putting stereotypical stoner comments aside, there are still some things to work on here. I still don't think it all comes together in the second minute minute; is it just me, or do the phrases start just a moment too late at 1:18? It just doesn't flow into one cohesive piece. Whatever, minor issue. Then you still gotta fix the buzzy bass thing during the last 94 seconds or so. And the rain stick ends a little too abruptly at 2:27. That is a nitpick though; not very important. I'm ramblesome today. Oh well.

*likes idea of new piano stuff*

[avaris]

ok, added a new piano right before 1:55. the timing was off from 1:55 to 2:10 with the piano and the strings. I think the bass in the last 90 secs sounds good, of course I can see the beef with it. I'll prob try some different sounds in that part tomorrow and see is i can find anything better. I added a solo piano arrangement at the very end, yay or nay on the new piano before 1:55 and at the end? and the buzz u hear right at the end, is from fl studio bc i am using a demo plugin in the song(slayer2 thats the bass) and after 15 mins it starts making that buzzing noise.
All these small errors all over the place come from when I did the big rearrangement that added 2mins of material and also learning the ins and outs of the new fl studio 6 (I used to use fruity loops 3)

[Radiowar]

Beginning needs work. Fix the piano sample. I'd recommend the Maestro (http://www.gsonic.com/maestro/) soundfont.

Actually, I think the entire intro should be cut out and the song should start at the part at 1:06. Or at least get there quicker. The intro just kinda sits there sounding all off key and weird.

I don't know what kind of weird xylophone synth that is in the background, some kind of Sytrus thing I'm guessing, but it doesn't sound right.

Do you think you could send me the .flp file? I want to see exactly what's going on here.

[avaris]

I am looking any and all new sounds to use to FL Studio, thanks for the link. Although I can't seem to install the file? I'll try some more and see if I can get to come up, the readme file wasn't to specific on install instructions.

I tried to post the file here or sent it to u in a message but I couldn't find anywhere to attach it. If you give me ur email I can send it to you. Although...*warning* as u know I've a ton of updates to this mix, the flp file is extremely cluttered. The first pattern contains all of the original midi file. I have up to 60 patterns worth of material, although not all of it is incorporated in the song. If you want I can create a "clean" version of the flp. file that only contains the patterns and instruments that are currently being used in the mix.
This goes for anyone else as well.

[BreakTekk]

I like the arrangement of the intro. I dunno, slow builds work for me. I kinda miss the old piano a little, just from the old 1:19 to 1:35 segment. I'd like to see a combination of new and old piano pieces. Ending with a piano sounds good.

[Radiowar]

Wow you weren't kidding when you said it was messy.

I'll take a better look at it over the weekend.

[avaris]

maybe I should have put the warning in red to better prepare you for it, haha, yeah if you want I can make a "clean" version i really don't mind

[JH Sounds]

Best of luck on this remix. The Prime games definitely need more rep!

:)

[avaris]

alright I am gonna start working on this again today, im gonna work on the piano from 1:00 to 2:00, I think I might cut down on some the chord progress alil bit and combine and rewrite a few parts ala Break Tekk's comments. Also in the beginning intro i'll be taking out :28 to :38, and then I'll see what I can do about getting the opening heartbeat more in tempo with the piano and if it sounds better that way. I'll also be trying to brush up on lil stuff here and there. I've already done alot of mastering effects(sounds much cleaner) but I'm having trouble ripping the mp3 bc the piano with the mastering effects gives off too much feedback. Any more comments between now and tonight would really help if anyone else notices anything, or wants to agree or dispute what some of the others guys have said about the mix. It seems like now, that there are certain parts that one person likes and another person doesn't. It's a love hate relationship.

They'll be an update on this within the next 24 hrs, and also Radiowar is looking over the flp. file so after i get his analysis, opinions, and feedback after he takes a good long look at it they'll be another update.

I am hoping to wrap this one up soon, and then submit it. I know for certain it has enough rearrangement to get accepted. But it's needs to be sanded and polished and probably varnished.

[Radiowar]

I looked over it last night and made some changes to the piano and other instruments, got rid of some clipping and murky parts, and changed some timing stuff...but I accidently deleted some things that I shouldn't have so...I dunno. The file is killing my CPU too haha. Can't handle that much Sytrus.

[avaris]

haha yeah I have a high end pc, 1 gb ram, 3.4 ghz processor, xi fi soundcard, and it kills mine too even after deleting alot of the junk that accumulated in the file. If you wanna send what you do have or tell me what changes you made with the file if you, I still have the original original one, so I can mix and match with the changes. it'd be a pain, but it is the weekend and I got the time.

[Radiowar]

haha well I exported the mp3 and it sounded like crap. It was hard to tell when I was working on it even with the buffer rate and stuff.

I'm not sure how much of the stuff I changed would end up helping, but I'd suggest using the Parametric EQ to take out some of the mid-range stuff so the piano doesn't sound so crappy. Also you don't need to use so many pianos, you have like 4 on there I think. Is there any reason for that? Cuz it was causing a lot of the clipping.

Aaand uhh...the pads (rich ensemble) at the beginning, I couldn't tell what was going on because it wouldn't play properly for me, but I'd suggest trying to using fewer notes (as in actual pitches, not the hundred tiny notes you have there). I think that's why it sounded weird to me.

Oh and at the beginning I put the first piano up an octave. I just think it sounds nicer there.

I can send you what I did but it sounds pretty terrible so there's probably no point. I'll try again when I have time...

[Splunkle]

Just a quick note: If something is clipping, drop a fruity soft clipper on the FX channel. Its a soft limiter, which means it compresses gradually as the signal apporaches the threshold. I doesn't effect the sound too much, unless you put WAYYYY to much through it, and its really easy on the CPU as well.

I would still reccomend using a compressor for the master track, but Fruity soft clipper is rather nice for individual FX channels where I just want something to stop clipping.

Good luck with the reworking!

[avaris]

I'm using multi-compression on individual tracks all over the place. Ok I did a heavily tinkered with boo bass instead of slayer2(demo) for the guitar in the second part so no clipping at the end.
Added a shakugachi flute, mainly in the 1st part of the song, it plays a lil harmony and thens plays some high notes after the piano. High notes were meant to be played by piano, but it just didn't sound right.
Also in the 2nd breakdown it accompanies the piano. The addition of the flute and the new high notes good or bad?
I used the maestro soundfont for piano when the piano is accompanied by the flute in the first and second intros. I tried the maestro for the regular piano but it just sounded a lil too dry even with reverb, it made it so the flute was the dominant sound instead of the piano.
The flute is also in the second part about an octave down and the volume is severely reduced, but it shadows the blown bottle melody.
There was a timing issue with part of the piano in the first part fixed that.
Also I've done a lot of mastering all over the place.
In the intro I put the first two pianos up an octave...it does sound better in my opinion.
Hmm, oh yeah the heart beat is slower, but it follows a pattern much more akin to the rhythm of the intro piano. There were also slight tempo changes in the beginning here and there, evened those out.
Lastly the intro strings are less notes ala Radiowar's comments.
the piano in the 1st main part goes from scales C to C (dropped the melody about 2 steps, was in A# changed ala Break Tekk) the to A#, back to C for a sec, then its back to A# for the rest. The second main part, the blown bottle is mainly in C, with one or two parts in A# (that's how the original is)


I posted the link uptop :roll:

[Splunkle]

Yes, yes, yes. Much much better than when I last heard it. Can't remember when that was. ANYWAYS:

Love the piano chord change - Along with the new piano bits, it really fixes up that problem with the track not going anywhere. I think there is one note that is off towards at the end, around 1:15.

But the second half, from when the bass and stuff come in, just isn't as good. I'm quite sure there is stil some sort of timeing badness going on there. And it still sounds disjointed. The bass does sound better though.

So keep at it. The first half, apart form the one note, is officially awesome.

[The Vagrance]

I heard this back suring your first incarnation so let's see how its changed. I think I'll tackle this a bit differently than normal.

Heartbeat: I like it, I like how there's not too much of it, it gives it room to breathe

Piano: A bit thin and a crappy sample, but aside from that its good

Pad: Fits well with the theme, nice and haunting/soothing

Rainstick: Fucking perfect

"crystal" synth: I'm calling that synth with a lot of attack the crystal synth because it reminds me of crystals. It fits well but I feel something more could be added to it. Also, a lot of times it seems out of time.

Choir: Fits very well also

Drums: Too quite and don't give any sense of beat, they get overpowered too easily

Bass: I like it, a lot.

Arrangement: Not crazy about the arrangement, its a bit too boring, nothing really holds you attention long enough for the drums to come in. I must say though, I do love the piano at the end.

[avaris]

there is another update coming soon, I just have to eliminate some major new found clipping because of new backdrops I added in the second part. I am using multiband compression and the soft clipper on individual tracks. I might try to add a compressor to the master or something bc the clipping is really bad now. So as soon as I fix that the new update will be up.

I increased volume on drums, and added some backing drums. I added more melody back drops and bridge parts to the second. And fixed the pattern of notes on that "crystal synth" (it's actually blown bottle on sytrus vst) And I layered the piano in the first main part, the sample sound much better now.

[avaris]

OK the update is listed uptop. I got rid of all the clipping! Yes all, added a multiband compressor to the master (thanks splunkle) and I also added a new line of percussion in the second part. It's lil wood blocks and congo drums. Alrighty, i think this one is finally all coming together.

[Radiowar]

Piano sounds a lot better! it's less dry. I have issues with the pads now. The notes just don't work with the piano. I'd suggest not playing chords (ie. triads) but maybe just octaves, or just a sustained pedal point type thing (ie. holding one note throughout). The pads shouldn't be terribly complex, it takes away from the atmosphere you're trying to establish.

So the intro has gotten a lot better. The second part is still kind of messy. The chord progression you're using doesn't make a whole let of sense musically. It sounds like you're trying to make this both ambient as well as melodic, and it clashes. Once again the pads are a big problem...Just makes everything sound muddy.

The sound at around 2:43 (I think it was the glass bottle) could have a little less decay.

The section starting at 2:54 sounds awesome! Has some potential anyways. Reminds me of Porcupine Tree sort of. I think the bottle synth is ruining it kind of. I'd like to hear this part without it.

The ending isn't bad. Kind of music-boxy. Maybe you should use a glockenspiel for it?

So yeah this is getting better. I think the section at 2:54 has the most promise, but the problem is it doesn't really go well with the source.

[avaris]

Just a quick update, did one notes on the beggining pad, still left the strings playing all the notes. Turned the attack down on the blown bottle, and lowered the volume a lil, and I raised the volume of the backing choir(actually it's a heavily tinkered shakugachi flute) Layered the ending piano(tried the glockenspiel, parts of it sounded good with it and parts of it sounded really off)

Minor changes, I'll probably try out some more variations on notes on the pads and strings, maybe it's the reverb that's killing part of the strings, I can see where ur coming from on those comments radiowar. I also tried some different intruments instead of the blown bottle, but nothin worked.

Well I'm hoping to submit this one soon, some yes or no's about chances of getting accepted along with comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!

[Radiowar]

Well, it's sounding a lot better from when you first started, but I'd say you still have a long way to go. The atmosphere is a lot better, but the pacing still feels random and overall it just meanders too much. I'd say right now you should start focusing on an arrangement that makes sense.

And there's still problems with the instrumentation, ie. certain things sounding too fake or too synthy, etc.

Specifically:

- Pads at 0:21 play a pretty ugly chord

- 0:43 introduces a new pad nicely, but there's way too much low end now and it sounds too dense

- The notes at around 0:16 take away too much from the atonal feel of everything else. They make the listener expect a certain key, but the key you go to next at 0:18 is completely unrelated and sounds jarring

- Starting at 2:30 there are chords played by a xylophone sounding thing, they sound wrong. Maybe try just octaves or something that doesn't create a sense of key

- 2:43-2:54 I would cut. Just doesn't sound good.

- The part at 2:54 is really the most interesting part of the song, so in the arrangement I'd try to write it so that it comes earlier than 3 minutes into the song. Once this part comes in, the beginning really seems irrelevant.

- FX starting at 3:25 ish are a little overbearing. But it's not a bad idea

- Melody at 3:36 should maybe be a different instrument, but if you can't, then at least get rid of some of the decay

- 4:06 hooooly shit ugly note. I think that is the xylophone's fault again. May be the piano.

So yeah some stuff to think about. There's more, but those should be the easiest to fix for now.

[avaris]

Thankx, I'll go through and check everything out. Personally my own vote would prob be No with a resubmit. There is so much going on in the song, it's hard to really break it down, I've heard it so many times I don't notice half the stuff in it anymore.

I think the biggest pitfall with the song, was when I cut up and rearranged and added 2 mins worth material, that really created about 50% of the problems I spent the last week ironing out.

Thanks for the comments, got me motivated again to start trying to make even more changes.

[avaris]

OK, I finally cut out those parts...much better, I should have knocked some sense into myself and paid more attention to the music theory in those parts. I layered in a guitar for that melody in the 2nd part main section. The xtra beat that kicks in with the main melody, I changed some of the instruments. Toned down the blown bottle(decay and volume), and also did some other shit but I can't remember everything I did.

The tempo now doesn't jump from 90 to 110, until after the 1st piano part plays(there are 5 parts to the piano in the 1st main section) To me it sounds wierd bc I'm used to it being faster. But I think it sounds better. The flute doesn't start echoeing the piano till the 2nd piano part anyways. The difference in when the tempo changes in this version compared to all the other previous versions happened by accident when I was editing. I heard it and thought it was good, so ye or nay or the new tempo change?

I know this piece has 2 intros and 2 main sections and a solo piano ending. Personally I like this setup, and the 1st part really helps me to deviate from the original source tune. Does anyone have any strong objections to this arrangement, with the 2 intros and 2 main parts and piano solo ending? Thanks guys!

[Radiowar]

I think the beginning shouldn't be so sudden. Maybe have the pads start a beat or two before the piano comes in.

I still have issues with the notes the pads play, but it doesn't matter necessarily in the intro since you are going for an ambient type atmosphere. It gets worse around 0:48 though. It is probably the cause of why it sounds so random, because it has no direction in relation to the melody. It seems to meander, and as a result, everything else does.

I still think the melody around 1:06 doesn't work, but maybe it's personal preference. To me, it establishes a key that didn't exist before and is immediately forgotten, which isn't really a good thing. Maybe if the pads were in key it would help.

So yeah my comment about the pads goes for everything up until the part at 2:26 pretty much. There are other problems, but the notes in the pads is the biggest one for now.

Timing problems at 2:38...melody comes in offbeat and plays out of time with the beat. Gotta get the timings right...

Interesting idea at 3:05. Maybe you should get a real electric guitar there (assuming that's what that's supposed to be). The synth shouldn't be playing along with it I think.

More wrong notes around 3:29...3:34...3:38...

For the ending if you're gonna use piano, at least use a less dry sounding one...

[avaris]

alright im taking this one to #ocrwip and see what kinda feedback I get there, so far they say the rythm is alil off but its ambient so...

darkesword said he liked it, liked the piano, that was it before i got disconnected

Uh, the guitar in the 2nd part was shot down, guess i'll try something different. I'll prob have another update in about 2-3 days

[avaris]

alright bitches, changed both of the pads! it was one of the pads causing all the timing problems, nothing to do with arrangement (the melody and the pads are arrangement carbon copy the same as the source)

Ah, what was causing this timing difference, in the source tune the intruments for the backing pads had lots of attack and no decay or echoe. Well in my version this was the complete opposite...causing that off beat feel. My low pad bellowed up and echoed after the initial note.

I also took out the guitar, and added some crazy synth and then I went did some crazy mastering effects to it for the main melody in the 2nd part, u might not notice but it's different. Compare it with the synth sound that plays bout 20 secs before, and u'll notice.

[Radiowar]

The part at 2:36 is still offbeat though. I'm pretty sure it's a beat too soon.

And there's still wrong notes at 3:26, 3:31 and 3:36.

[avaris]

alright had the beat start wit the melody at 2:36

3:36 was an A#(wrong scale) changed it to a B, sounds like it works.

Didn't really hear anything wrong with 3:31.

3:26 there weren't enough notes, changed that.


If anyone hears any off key notes or clashing anywhere that'd be a big help.

Also, on #ocrwip got some feedback the bass frequencies might be to high, anyone else getting that? My speakers are blown, plus I live in an apartment so my bass is turned down.

I'm gonna try to get a judge to take a quick look at it, to see if there is something minor that needs to be changed. Going to try to submit this by the end of the weekend, been getting good feedback on it at #ocrwip, but I haven't gotten any serious critique there yet. But at least I got radiowar, he's always able to find something, which is def a big help.

[Radiowar]

Also, on #ocrwip got some feedback the bass frequencies might be to high, anyone else getting that? My speakers are blown, plus I live in an apartment so my bass is turned down.

Well yeah, I think I said that a couple times before (when I said there was too much low end, that's what I meant).

For example, the instrument entering at 0:30 has too much low end. Makes everything sound really dense. The main melodies barely cut through it.

alright had the beat start wit the melody at 2:36

Well it's in time, only it's a beat too soon? I don't know whether this is intentional and you're trying to change the feel of the source, but it still sounds like it should be on the downbeat to me. Maybe turn down the velocity on that first note so it feels like it leads into the downbeat more.

3:26 there weren't enough notes, changed that.

Still hearing a wrong note there.

OK so the melody is outlining c minor (C Eb G) basically, and the chord at 3:26 has an E natural which is causing the problem.

3:36 was an A#(wrong scale) changed it to a B, sounds like it works.

It's still a very strange chord. I can't figure it out by listening to it though.

[avaris]

3:36 was playing B in this version it is playing C, the chord is playin (C E A C) IN the proggression of the melody to reach that C, there is G played right before. Really can't stretch that note any higher

At 2:36, that initial note is meant to be a lead in, i'll just lower the velocity some.

I'll work on cutting down on some of the bass on the pads, through multiband compression. The ratio was turned way down on the low frequency. Before I had cut down on the# of notes being played but I guess that wasn't the problem. Damn apartment, and at work I'm on headphones.

3:26, the notes are fine, it's 3:12 the melody was playing C minor. Hearing it differently at 3:26 is prob what was causing the problem. I left it in there before I liked the clash of sound it brought, well now it's changed.


I'll be ripping an mp3, and putting up the update in a couple of minutes.

[Radiowar]

3:36 was playing B in this version it is playing C, the chord is playin (C E A C) IN the proggression of the melody to reach that C, there is G played right before. Really can't stretch that note any higher

Oh ok. Well technically you're not even supposed to double the third, let alone triple it...maybe the chord should just be A and E?

[Splunkle]

Okay, just listened to the version posted today. I do like it, especially the way you have been improving. Unfortunatly, I think the streaming is affecting quality, at least for me. It sounded like it was encoded at 64kbits, so its probably just the streaming thing. The thing is, I can't really comment on the bass because of that. So I can't help your there. Sorry, avaris =(

But onto stuff I can help with: You have used the delayed piano well. using any instrument with that much delay is kinda risky, because you risk mudifiying the whole mix, but you have avoided that. I'm not hearing any wrong notes either, except for one, maybe, around 1:03. It could be funky chord change though.

Also, the beat in the second bit is good - but I think the pads were triggering a quaver earlier. Made the pads sound a little off-time.

Thats all I got. I'm really sorry I couldn't help with bass issues. =/

[avaris]

thats cool, thanks splunkle. The note was off key, must be bc i sit sideways. The harmony note by the backing was too close in relation to the note also. I have a habit of using delayed piano, bells, or harp in anyhing I make so hopefully I can get it down right. It did take me awhile to get this one good though. The song is ripped at 192, but at a syncdepth at 6 point hermite(takes 10-12 mins to rip, if i do any higher its almost 45 mins to rip) When I make a final one, it'll be at 256 syncdepth.

Radiowar, I'll play with the chord structure
around that note. That (C E A C) is from the source tune not me, that's why I hadn't touched it before. The high note the melody is playin is what I put in there though. The whole melody in that part follows that pattern, they are tripling the third everytime. I'll try to fix it, thanks. But I'f have to change the whole structure. I'll rip an mp3 where the chords will only be in the pattern of C E A (i'll take out that high notes in the chords)

[avaris]

update, only big change is at the entrance at 2:36, all the volume starts to fade and then a breakout
Of course this leaves two breakouts in around 20 secs of eachother, might be too much, might not, tell me what ya think

that part at 3:36, I just cut the note out.

I also lowered the volume of the pads from 3:36 on

[avaris]

Alrighty this is the version I am going to submit in the next day or two unless anyone can come up with any feedback on parts that need to be changed or any creative arrangement ideas to try out. If anyone think this song needs another part in it to make it stand out more or anything of that nature please let me know.

I've really put alot into this mix, right now I am at a "writers block" I have done about all I can to do for this mix. I believe it has a pretty good chance to get accepted. I also have other mix ideas and projects that I want to take on and work at.

Mad props to everyone who has helped out with this mix: Radiowar, Splunkle, Break Tekk, Doomsday, and God...oops this ain't an awards show haha. In my opinion there are alot newer remixers like myself who are in the WIP forums that have alot of talent and will prob all get a song on the site one day with enough work and practice. If by chance in ur opinion this song has no shot of getting on(i respect your opinion) let me know. Peace.

[Radiowar]

Well I think this song has definitely improved a LOT since your first version, so that's good. To be honest I can't see this making it onto the site for a variety of reasons, but I think you did a really good job developing the ideas you had, and it works a lot better as a standlone song. But that's just me.

Best of luck with this.

[Chickenwarlord]

The rainstick sound is a little too present methinks. First synth is a little hollow sounding, but it's not too bad.
Second time you echo that little theme halfway through doesn't really fit well, but I understand why it's there.
I have the feeling that this should be more dynamically varied.
Near the end the high notes ringing is a tad distracting (ergh, I need to find a better word).
Still well done, just a few touch-up issues. After all, I am only one person, and this will most likely appeal more to others.

[Splunkle]

Listened to the latest version. No more streaming issues! yay! Clear as a... really clear thing. ANYWAYS, this is much much better. I'm not hearing any bass dominating everything, so you should be fine there. I would say that this has a fairly good chance at the panel - not that I'm really experienced or anything. But even if the panel rejects it, they will tell you why - so then you have something to fix, no?

Good luck!

[about:blank]

This has a very nice feel to it, and I think you did a good job of making the song your own. I'm really enjoying all of the ambience that you've put into this song. The piano outro that starts around 3:57, sounds great, and the wind effects that you have going along with it compliment it nicely. The outro leaves a nice lasting impression, which is definitely a good thing.

I don't have many complaints regarding this song. I think there was a part around 2:53 that had a kind of dissonant sounding ring. It's faint, but it kind of detracts from the mellow mood of the song in my opinion.

That being said, I really like your take on the song. I don't know if it will get accepted or not, but there's only one way to find out.

Good luck!

[FiremanJoe]

I like this mix alot. Only thing I don't like about it is the sound that starts at about :50, and continues throughout the song. Perhaps change or remove it..
I loved the piano at 4:00, reminded me alot of the Resident Evil movie soundtrack. Nice touch, greatly adds to the atmosphere of the track.
Keep up the good work, and the best of luck to you. :)

[JH Sounds]

It won't be long now...

[avaris]

Wow im surprised this was still on the forums. Yeah I'm waiting in anticipation. It's prob gonna be 3 weeks before I get word on it. Sucks darkesword beat me to the punch for getting this source tune posted first. Of course he did his track a long time ago. Ds' track is pretty friggin sweet though. Gotta give him credit on he reworked the main melody in the beggining that was impressive.

Thanks for all the comments guys!

[avaris]

Well it got rejected. I am actually glad bc there were a lot things I noticed about a month or 2 after I submitted that I wanted to change. And guess what I friggin did.

New Version (UPDATED 1/7) Version 999,999
http://swallace21.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes6melody.mp3

[E-Bison]

Metroid eh?

You have some great sounds! I love the rain stick! But you're posting on the WIP forrum so I would imagine you want some advice.

Issues:

Too muddy: Pull back some of the delay/verb. If you're digging the wash of reverb thing in the very least you need to EQ the reverb channel away from the bass frq and lower mids. This will give you epic reverb without freq overlap and mud.

Lost Bass: Your bass is there... you just need a new one that takes up more of the upper sound spectrum. Find one that cuts more and sound cleaner. Something with a huge Rez filter and High pass cuttof would be wicked. There had better not be reverb on that bass!

The big Pad: Run a High pass filter on this bad boy at least 150 hz. This will let people hear all the stuff you are doing.

Epic Bass Drum: Totaly cool for your ambient intro, not so cool when mixed with all sorts of other elements. You can't be 100% epic all the time. Less is more in this case.

Hope this helps.

Oh... And if you can find a way to pull some lofi effect on that piano outro, that might be cool.

E-Bison

[Safaex]

Hello! I just wanted to pop in and say it sounds alot better than before and overall very good :). The one thing that bothers me the most though, is that the whole track sounds almost like it comes from a pipe... a valve? My english vocabulary isn't the greatest so it's hard to explain. It's like some filter is affecting all the layers making it sound funny. The brighter the tone/layer is, the more I notice it. Try to listen from 2:20 as it is from that point it becomes the most obvious to me.

Maybe it's intentional? Imo it would sound better without it.

Best Regards

Safaex

[Ronyn]

Well, you know how to make your stuff sound good, so just keep being self critical and I'm sure it'll all improve.

My beef from listening to the original, and it did improve in the second version a little, is that I think the music relys a little to heavily on ambience. Most of the music in the first version you could almost add lightning strikes to and release it as a relaxation track. I think it could use more structured melody, and development of that melody, don't wander off too far or we might forget what song you're remixing. At about 2:27 of the second version is more like it.

Not too sure about the rain effect either...doesn't seem to blend, it draws too much attention to itself I think.

[Top Dollar]

James George pretty much sums it up. I like the idea behind the mix, but either make it shorter (when the refined part kicks in, I unfortunately already lost my interest) or add some more structure. Ambient and structure don't have to exclude each other.

Other than that, I think the mix has a lot of potential. Good luck!

[Splunkle]

E-Bison seems to have covered most of the production issues.

Hahahahahaha I just got to the Bass. Awesome. Though perhaps a bit intense in comparisson to the rest of the song.

You seems to know what to do, so its sounding good.

[avaris]

Wow thanks for all the comments guys. And E-Bison I think you just solved my "muddy" problem that I experience in all my mixes. I've been implementing some your advice and it's really breathing new life into all of my songs.

OK, so I've been working on the piano part. This is a lil something I threw together to maybe use in the intro. So go ahead and tear my piano playing apart. Tell me what sections of this I should work into the piano and parts suck.

http://avaris.studios.googlepages.com/EchoesPiano.mp3

Soon as I get the piano squared away, I am going give you guys an update with all of the mastering that's been added.

Also I'm gonna try taking out the heartbeat in the beggining, but I'm going to add it t the 2nd intro. Except in the 2nd intro its goin to be played by that crazy LFO bass.

So there will be a nice update once I get the piano done, I just need some comments on it. What ideas out of this do u like and which do u not. Also if anyone is really good pianist I'd really appreciate some tips on it.

Thanks guys n gals.

[Martin Penwald]

Is it just me, or is that whole piano thing unbelievably quiet? Turn up the volume, please.

[avaris]

I played it at extremely low velocity levels on purpose. But the volume will be turned up on it when it is put into the song. I actually have the piano fleshed out more, and will hit you guys up with an update prob sometime next weekend as my classes are kicking my ass this week.

[avaris]

Bump for great justice!

UPDATE 11/14
http://swallace21.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes3.mp3

The first part now contains piano played played by yours truly. I ain't the greatest but I think it works.

Added more depth to leads in the 2nd part. Worked on transition into the ending and to the 2nd part.

The song is below 4 mins now 8O Who woulda thought.

Anyways I'm getting close to submitting this again. Any thoughts on it good/bad don't matter to me.

Thanks dudes

[Evilride]

Ooh, this is nice. I normally don't go for this kind of stuff, but DANG, this is good. It's a good song for if you're sad, or if you want to calm down for some reason. I like how it sounds all echo-ish for the piano thing, I think that's a cool effect. Definitely try to get this posted, it's awesome.

[Splunkle]

Wow, you really brutalised that piano, didn't you. I'm not really hearing anything to do with the melody here... ah wait, here we go, at 1:33, that etheral synth comes in with the main line... but thats more than a third into the track.

Hmmmm. It still seems a bit messy - cut back on that verb and delays some more. I know you really want all the verb and delay to be there when the instrument is exposed, but when evrythign has huge amounts of verb and they are all playing, it gets muddy. I think you might be able to solve this by either automating the FX units - simply turn the delay off, and reduce the amount or decay time on the verb during the crowded bits.

EDIT: just re-listened on my speakers, rather then my headphones, and it sounded less muddy. So mayhaps my headphones are boosting speakers that result in muddyness. Probably the mid-range somewhere, 250-1000 Hz I think. Anyways, try playing it on lots and lots of different speakers and enviroments, so you can EQ with precision.

[Radiowar]

you went overboard with the pads here i think. but this version sounds like it has more direction to it than the original, so that's good. i think you can create whatever atmosphere you're going for without the pads sounding so metallic too.

[avaris]

OK this is prob my final update on this song. My inspiration and creativity has just about run it's course with this track. But I'll prob still find something to change regardless.

http://avaris.studios.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes3.mp3

I cut back on the reverb even more, EQ'ed it a little bit. Took a good deal of sustain and release off of the piano in the ambient section. Also messed with little things here and there.

Any comments at all are welcome. Have at it.

Big thing clipping for you guys anywhere? My speakers are shot as is so...

Thanks guys n gals.

[Ronyn]

Haven't had a lot of time to be around lately, but I did make it a point to listen to this update.

To answer your question, it did sound like a some instruments were pushing out some distortion and fuzz. At first I thought it was just the bass heavy mid section, but I can hear it all over slightly. Distorting on purpose? I'd double check your EQ's too, make sure you didn't amplify some fuzzy freqs accidentally either. Probably check your compression too.

I think the last half is stronger than the first half, and the trick will be to keep people listening long enough to hear the good parts later. I think in the first half, the sonic soundscape overshadows and overpowers the musical content. In the second half, they work together much better. 3:20 is probably the most sonically simple section of your music, yet oddly enough, the most musically powerful. I really think less is more in this case.

The mix as a whole, largely due to the scoundscape dominating the first half, seems too dripping wet. I know ambience is the goal, but every track doesn't have to have spacey reverb in ambient music. Still not a fan of that (rainmaker?) effect either. It would be better if it kind of faded in and out, ethereal-like, but I can actually hear it starting and stopping out of nowhere-sharply, and no offense, it sounds like someone using the bathroom (imo) or operating a faucet. The panned spaced out tweets at 0:50 that come in don't match the emotional mood of the piano trying to play. In general, the FX really distract from the piano and pads altogehter. They are playing some very beautiful lines that would really be moving if not for the obnoxious FX screaming "look at me!" Look for FX that compliment the piano and pads, not compete (i.e. maybe use a piano plunk or similar kind of sound as the source sample for the tweets? might have a neat kind of psychic echo effect or something).

If you're burnt out on this one, step back from it from a while. I know if you come back to it later, when you haven't heard it for a while, you'll hear lots you didn't before, and maybe by then have thought up some solutions. I also know you're working on like, 10 million projects right now. Just be careful not to stretch yourself out too much. Quality is infinitely better than quantity, and it would be a shame to see your quality suffer because you want this mix over and done with.

Sorry if I'm being too harsh. It really is beautiful to listen to, but someone with your talent really deserves some effective feedback at your level. I've heard your mixes and I know you can really blow people away with this mix, I'm guessing you're a little tired by now though.

Submitted or re-worked, good luck!

[Splunkle]

ARRRRRGGGGGHHH CLIPPING ALL OVER THE PLACE. You really should know better than this, man =P

Well, to be technical, not exactly clipping, but a very similar sort of distortion nonetheless. Gander at this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/Splunkle/Not%20Funnies/clipping.png

This is from the ZOMG LOUD part of your song. Essentially, you are compressing so hard that your celing, instead of being -0.3 dB, like it should be, is more like -1 dB. When a song is this loud you need every dB of space you can get. Which brings me to my second point - whyis it so GORRAM loud? I checked 10 seconds worth of the loud part of the song, and it came in at just under -6 dB RMS. WAY TOO LOUD. My loud parts are like, -10 dB RMS, tops. Now I know I prefer soft compression, but this is beyond hot - this is burnt. In an un-good way.

So, Splunkle's big huge reccomendations:
- turn that stuff down! Massively down!
- Compress less! let the mix have a bit of space
- If you want to keep the dynamic range for that explosion of noise at 1:56ish, just turn down the volume for the first part (especially on the non piano parts). Suckers will then turn their volume up, and then they get all blown away by all the awesome.

Thats all I got for now!

[big giant circles]

you're using FL right?

what exactly are you using primarily in FL? default plugins? Sytrus? I'd like to know, exactly.

I know you've gone through 2 resubs on this as well, and if you don't mind I might like to take a gander at your .flp

PM me.

[avaris]

Wow thank you guys. This was the kinda feedback I was hoping for. There were things that were bothering me about this and I felt I could do better, I just couldn't put my finger on it.

JG: I def agree with alot of your comments. I think I might run that rainstick through a granulizer and keep it goin longer. Another aspect for the first section is I don't have any "dry" elements. It makes the 'wet' and reverbed sounds stick out even more. No sense of balance. I'll prob add some dry snare hits or nylon string guitar with delay to compliment different accents in the piano. Or do them in a similar fashion to how the koto is my schala mix. I'll def cutback and rework some of the FX in and around the piano too. Yeah I def think the 'tweets' do go a little too crazy around :50. The tweets are actually a result of holding sustained notes on one the 3 pads I got going on.

Splunkle: Yeah just about everything is compressed at 99% and is set to the same compression settings. I kinda forgot to go back through and change that in my many updates. The flp file for this is pretty ugly. But having everything overcompressed and at the same settings is prob the number 1 reason for the distortion. I do have the mix set to not go above -1db. I ussually don't like to use limiters at all unless I absolutely have to. I'll even out the multiband compressors and see what comes out.

Again thanks guys, I'm def gonna step back and rework this as you guys have really pointed out the things I need to do to really make this mix kick ass.

[avaris]

you're using FL right?

what exactly are you using primarily in FL? default plugins? Sytrus? I'd like to know, exactly.

I know you've gone through 2 resubs on this as well, and if you don't mind I might like to take a gander at your .flp

PM me.

Yup I'm using FL6xxl. I've only submitted it once so far and unless I fix it up some more i think i would have to resubmit again. Here's wat I'm using:

Mainly Sytrus.
Absynth
Vanguard
A shakugachi flute sample M32shaku i think...
Kontakt 2 (for the piano)
All the percussion samples are from samplefusion
All default effects FL plugins except that I am using some absolutely crazy settings on NI-Spektral Delay for the piano.

I'm gonna be outta town for 2 days and I still gotta pack so I won't be able to get you the file till around thursday or friday. Most likely friday bc I'll clean it up some for you. Otherwise you'll be really really confused, and most likely your computer will crash or ur cpu will burn up from opening it. I have around 36 effects channels goin, but I'm only using about 15 of em.

I might make some changes on the compression before I send it to you is that cool? Or do you want it as is, how everything is set up in this version?

Thanks dude.

[avaris]

Alrighty, this weekend I decided to pick up this song again and try to finish it. I felt it was about time. Last night I went through and fixed all of the clipping, by doin some major editing with compression, volume, and FX levels. Basically I was trying to keep the same character of the sound while lowering the DB levels without using any limiters. Splunkle you were dead on right on some of ur points.

I also fixed up some lil things in the first section and added some soft hats to give it something xtra to keep the casual listener's attention. Replaced the rainstick in the middle of that section with the dark voices, fits much better.

http://swallace21.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes4.mp3

Any final comments or suggestions before I RESUB? This is the final version unless... As I said before I am down for do whatever it takes to make this song kick ass. If this is the final version, I'll rip the very first WIP of this song dating back to last july just to jog peoples memories. :)

Just in case anyone was wondering, there is about 0 reverb on those pads. And only slight reverb 25-35% on bout half the leads. (low freq cut at 400hz too)

[Radiowar]

Haven't heard this in awhile...

The piano from 0:20-1:25 sounds way to random, like it is playing bits and pieces of a melody but at random intervals. It feels very start-stop if that makes any sense. Also the piano sample sounds kinda detuned and crappy.

There's this instrument you're using that plays chords in the background, I can't tell what it is, but it sounds pretty weak. Also the chords it plays sound pretty random.

I think the pads you use here are too dead sounding, and they don't really establish the atmosphere I think you're going for.

I don't know if you've ever heard Moonloop by Porcupine Tree, but this track has a sort of similar vibe to it in that it is sort of ambient but with more of a groove. I think you need to establish the groove more. ie. instead of the soft hi-hats you use in the beginning, maybe put in some congas or other light percussion?

Listen to Moonloop by Porcupine Tree or something and you'll see what I mean.

[avaris]

I gotta hand it to ya hb, some of the thing u said were right. The pads sounds and timing clashed with the piano. The pads sounded great by themselves, but didn't sit well in the mix. Since then, I have reworked/replaced the pad sounds (way too much attack on the pads before). I also moved around the piano so it is now in sync with the pads. Didn't think I could keep the character of the composition and still change the timing.

I checked out that song, the intros are almost identical (same ideas!?) I seriously have never heard the song before. I'm gonna try some more rythms in there and see how they'll fit. If i can get something that works great, if not then I'm just gonna keep with the hats.

Any kind of wood block etc... would clash with the piano. I originally wanted to use wood blocks and what not for the first section but it didn't work out.

I'll have an update sometime tomorrow or late late tonight.

[Radiowar]

I used to be radiowar btw (:

[avaris]

Oh haha, didn't reconize ya since the name change and being sigless. Hows that brambles piano song coming along?

http://swallace21.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes5.mp3

OK, so yeah I don't know about the rythms in this. They're ok, I don't anything driving or nothing bc it would really detract from the piano. I might just use the hihats and turn them down.

Also any thoughts of the reverse kick right before the breakout?

Oh the overly detuned feel on the piano was from me modulating and putting LFO on the DB levels of individual freq levels, I took it off and it sits much better in the mix now. I also learned some new stuff bout Kontakt and tweaked the piano a lil bit.

[Radiowar]

Hows that brambles piano song coming along?

It's been slow but I'm still working on it...

The pads sound better, so that's good. I still think it could use a bit of percussion like a brushed snare or something, but if it detracts then don't bother.

I don't mind the reverse kick, it sounds bit like a scratch though and I think that kind of sound is out of place here. It's your call, it doesn't screw things up or anything.

What is that instrument you're using at 1:32? It sounds like a really thin xylophone. I would get a more realistic one there, if a xylophone is what you're going for. I personally think it ruins the ambience a bit and wouldn't have it come in until the part at 1:56.

Also, maybe a bit of a crescendo to 1:56 would make it a little less sudden and disjointed. Maybe have some of the pads in that section come in earlier or something.

[about:blank]

It's been a while since I've listened to this.

Beginning is pretty cool, some cool ambient sounds, and I think I hear some Sytrus in there somewhere.

I like the hi hats in the beginning of this, the song probably wouldn't suffer without them, but it's a nice touch, and I think nice touches like that go a long way in ambient music. I'm thinking the same thing about the reverse bass drum, it's a nice touch IMO so you should probably keep it.

My main problem with this is the piano at the end, maybe it's just my headphones, but it sounds like there's a lot of clipping or distortion there.

Also, during that last part, there's a wind sound that's going along with the piano, I think the ending would sound even better if you just had that wind sound keep going like 5 or 6 seconds after the piano's done, and then slowly fade out.

Also, if I were you I'd go to the judges decisions for your first sub (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=89722) and make sure that you took all of their suggestions and criticisms and incorporated them into your final mix. Just as a way to double check and make sure there isn't anything else left for you to do in terms of improving this, or if there's something they've noticed about the mix that we haven't. I say this because it takes a long time for mixes to get judged, so it's definitely best to be sure that this will get submitted.

All that being said, I really like this, and I look forward to hearing the next update.

[avaris]

http://swallace21.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes5.mp3

OK I am happy with it. :) Added a lil swell right before the reverse kick. I kept the percussion, I think it serves a basic purpose. There was some small hints of clipping in the ending piano.

BC of Kontakt the samples being played were the "high velocity" samples. So I toned down the velocity just a smidgen and now the medium ranged samples are the ones being played.

Thanks for the link blank, I read through it and I feel I have addressed all of those issues and then some.

This friggin song sure has come a long way. In my opinion alot of the sound design and ideas are pretty raw, but I like them, and they are testament for me at least of where this song has come from and the unique style and sound it has.

As far as this getting accepted on OCR, I give it a 50/50 in my honest opinion. It has great ideas and some really cool stuff but it is raw and crazy. If I was a judge I would find a song of this nature extremely hard to judge. Hopefully I can get a judge's input before I submit.

I'll be sending this off to tha sauce and vgmix when it gets back up. And if it gets rejected this time around then I'll do an infamous (OCR EDIT) and resub.

Anyways thanks guys for all the feedback these past few months, it's really made a huge difference.

[Retlaf]

I'm loving this new addition to my playlist. ^^ Keep up the great work, avaris. I don't have enough wicked ambience stuff like this.
In all honesty, I do believe this has a nice chance at getting past those judges. Good luck with it!

[Martin Penwald]

Ooooh, left/right panning, always a plus in my book.

Maybe I am just imagining things, but didn't this song have something in the background which sounded like rain? Because that was awesome...the stuff we get here in the beginning sounds rather strange to me; I can't really say what it is supposed to be.

In my opinion, the whole piano part in the beginning (up to ~1:25) seems unnecessary. Sorry to be so harsh, but it doesn't do anything for me; it only delays the start of the good stuff.

The following, more mellow part needs to be extended, as it is made of win and awesome and melody which even someone who hasn't played any new Metroid since Super Metroid recognizes.

The livelier part which is next just reinforces my opinion that the whole piano business in the beginning is nothing but a too long intro.

Nice work on the outro, although the piano sounds a bit high. Plus, you could add some seconds where we only hear the wind.

Keep working, this is some promising stuff.

[avaris]

Thanks guys, I'm a sucker for good criticism. :) It seems a lot of people have expressed concerns over the piano. I'm not gonna get rid of it, but I am gonna try to incorporate that haunting melody over it with a synth, to maybe give you guys something good to listen to and hold you over till the breakout section. We'll see if it works out. Oh and Penwald i accidently turned down the rain stick a lil bit, I'll turn that up a bit and also cut down on the high notes just alil on the outro a lil bit more.

Penwald you said it sounds promising, what can I do to make this friggin awesome?

[Radiowar]

These pads sound a lot nicer, so much more life in them now. I personally think it might sound better if there weren't gaps in between each chord which would help with the atmosphere of it.

The part starting at 0:18...the piano is very freeform and I think if you're going to have percussion in there it would help if there was a bit more direction to it. Not so far as putting a backbeat in or something, but maybe some little fills on toms and stuff, and not just the hi-hat, because right now it feels really random and out of sync with the piano. I'm thinking jazz kind of drums, the best example that comes to mind is the beginning of Ganon's Temple by Neskvartetten (on OCR). That's just a suggestion though, what you have is fine if it works for you.

At 2:26 there is a mallet instrument that sounds too loud, I'd turn it down.

You might get some criticism for most of the middle section being to crowded, it doesn't bother me personally but it might be something to watch out for.

[avaris]

http://swallace21.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes6melody.mp3

I overdid it on the breathing sound at the end whoops but it's in there and it's def pretty cool. Good call hb on the pads. Turned the rainstick up! I missed it soo much. :)

Also I worked in that haunting melody in parts over the piano, it's soft and "haunting" right now. Should I turn it up a lil? Turned down the velocity overall on the piano in both sections, but kept the volume the same. Less piercing highs but more mood and depth. I worked in some type of percussion alternating very similar to the hats, more so layered the sound in with the hats almost. It sounds like it creates a good balance, bc after a minute those hats can wear ur ears down.

I had 2 pads goin on the final final breakout..took one of em out and toned down the other. Now there's room to breathe. I also did some major cutting and volume adjustments to keep that 2nd section feeling less crowded.

Thanks for the continueing feedbacks dudes, honestly no matter what I do now this song always sounds the same to me now after listening to it so many friggin times.

Any other final tweaks?

[Splunkle]

Hmmmmmm... lets see what has changed since last time...

Pads sound much better. More Sci-fi niceness. Hi-hats are a definate plus. The transition feels more natural. Its still "hey guys, we are moving to the next section now", but much more charming about it. Nice use of LFO on that synthy backing thing, btw. And the cross-fade to the closing piano is very nice indeed. The extra minute of ambient noise after the piano stops is kinda pointless though - it needs some more presence if you want it to use it as a fade out. I'm thinking it could work, in a sort of Dreams in Red (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00891/) fashion. Also, that intro piano is rather liberal in terms of its treatment of the melody. I think you should be okay, because theres plenty of other times the melody gets love, but some disagree. eh.

So, to conclude, quite a bit better than the last time I heard it... version 3 or something? Anyways, I think this is really sounding cool - but do fix up those breathy outro sounds before submitting ^_^

[avaris]

Thanks dude. Yeah lots of lil adjustments all over the place. Trying to make it so anyone can enjoy it, not just fans of the specific genre. The intro piano is actually a combination of one my original tunes with the metroid. They were very similar so I decided to fuse them together.

Yeah the breathing outro sounds are actually the aftermath or residue left over from one of the instruments. That is how processed it is... :) It's not gonna linger that far in the final version. I'm gonna go back over this one more time with some EQ'ing to see if I can't get it to sound more refined what not and then that'll be that.