please to remove "trance" from list of acceptable

[Siamey]

Hi fellow OCRers.

Im gonna be as calm and collected as possible in order to get my point accross. Besides, some of you already know me as an immature hot-head and will skip this by if i start flaming.

Id like to ask DJP to consider removing "trance" as one of the genres that it is ok to submit to ocr.
This is cause i guess alot of people in charge at ocr dont actually understand what a trance song is, and i so i dont think that they should flaunt that option on the remix submissions page.
I understand that you want to advertise as many options as possible, but you might at least consider putting

"Any genre or style of music is acceptable: Techno, Salsa, Rock, Classical, Ambient, Dub, Hillbilly, House, Trance*, Medley, Hybrid, Rave, Jungle, Instrumental, Ska - you name it."
and then later in small print:
"*note: submitting a trance song that is not blended with any of the aforementioned genres in order to water it down, prettymuch guarantees its rejection."

4 or 5 months ago i submitted a song called Ghosts of Shadow Moses to the judges panel, and it just recently got rejected. Thats ok though, if they dont think its for OCR, then i guess it isnt. I've had songs rejected before and sometimes i wig out and sometimes i dont.

Despite the fact that i worked the hardest on this song than any remix ive ever made, and it still got rejected, i still managed to only send off one raging immature yelling email (sorry larry :D ).

Heres what hit home though, when reading the judges responses to my mix.

http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86743&sid=02417ab2f62c05c9e9ef6399f5d25389

my mix, and the original song is at
http://www.siamey.com/ocrtemp

I can understand some of their issues with the remix, such as the arrangement, but they have failed to understand how hard it is to adapt a song with such little source material into a trance format.

considering the source song consists of 2 sections:
1. the same note repeating while instruments fade in and
2. the main melody

With this song, one of the only reasonable things to do in a trance format is to reinterperete the chords into a sublead and play around with some little melodies using those chords while you build towards a breakdown where you introduce the main melody.

I think that the judges are focusing too much on what they would like the song to be, and not just accepting it for what it is, and trying to appreciate it for what it is.

to quote TO
God damn, this is template techno if I ever heard it.
Good job, you understand the kind of music i make, congrats! except you've made one insulting assumption. the same assumption that alot of judges make, and that assumption lies in the use of the phrase "template techno"

using that phrase instantly brands you as someone who cant comprehend techno as a genre, and also as someone who doesnt appreciate in the least, how it is produced.
For starters, alot of TO's comments on my mix were misguided. I built this song from scratch, and it took me a god damn long time, and alot of work and fine tuning.

8O Techno/trance is not a machine where you just throw a switch and out pops a song, like every other trance song youve ever heard. 8O

Im sure that news might be surprising to some of you, but its true. :P

It takes absolutely nothing to find a template of a techno song that happens to be in the same key as the source, and pasting the melody over the top

christ man.. is that what you think i did? do you think that like... every trance song ever made is by some guy named hans in his basement, popping X and producing nonstop, and then every song since then is a remix of a remix? do you think i found another song and placed a melody over it? thats rediculous! ill be happy to post the source file of my remix right here for you, anyone can do whatever they want with it.

Trance, as any other genre takes skill and dedication to write a beautiful song.
Just because it is one of the newer genres out there, alot of people tend to misjudge it. I wonder if when hiphop/rap first started up some people were like GOD that sounds like EVER other rap song!

sounded like the club music they'd play on Top 40 stations during the live weekend parties during the mid-to-late '90s.

OK so i make clubtrance? im not gonna deny it, i like that kind of music.
Im not looking to create some new type of genre when i make a song, even one i plan on submitting to OCR, lets get that straight. I make trance music, through and through.
I dont make some new blend of trance that is more palletable to people who arent into techno music. I dont make some sort of OCRtrance, some fusion of a 4/4 beat with your other favourite genre.

thats not what we do, we who make straight up trance, and we're persecuted for it.

if i may go back to the judges panel statement for a sec:

I'm in agreement with TO on this one. While I like the production on the piece, the arrangement is seriously cookie-cutter and the source takes a long time to come in.

I can understand their gripe with this one, it does take a while for the source to come in, but until then, i have a logical progression of instruments and notes which i have adapted from the chords in the original. so i keep the feeling of the song before the main melody even comes in.

if youll listen to String Machine(one of my fav mixes on the site), by FFMusic Dj, youll notice that the source material doesnt come in until well into the song (1:29 to be exact).

also, at first one of the most smart sounding things, but actually in reality one of the dumbest things ive ever heard:

Like Vig said, this could really be any melody.

if you dont like my song for one reason or another, thats ok, but do me a favor and spill the beans ok. dont beat around the bush. it could be any melody? any song could be any melody! i know what you mean to a degree, but that doesnt apply to my song more than others. saying something like that is just insulting and vague.


The majority of this mix has nothing to do with the source. This is pretty much a standard job of welding two completely different tracks together and hoping they stick. If you wanted to attempt to incorporate the source in more than 20% of the song, feel free to resubmit, but until then this is a NO.


well TO, if you want to attempt to incorperate trance into the list of acceptable genres that you are able to judge properly, id be glad.

Seriously guys, im genuinely sorry that i dont make hiphop or rock, or ambient or bigbeat or orchestral, im really really sorry.

im sorry too cause i guess that means i cant have a remix on this site... at least until i give in to your demand of letting another genre rape trance until they are mixed in a way that only the "socially acceptable" parts of trance music stand out.

So thats my deal, there it is, all layed out for you.

Id appreciate DJP changing that section of the submission guidelines, or at least giving me some other sort of personal assurence that submitting a well written trance song and waiting 5 months for it to get lost, then PMing a judge and waiting till it gets on the panel is not going to be a complete waste of my time.

I'd also appreciate some assurence that one of the judges isn't going to completely overstep his bounds and go for the rediculously dramatic, like TO did in this case; every word he typed dripping with contempt for the genre, every sentance he finished mocking the concept of straight techno as a listenable music, and then finishing off his performance with one of the biggest slaps in the face ive ever recieved off the panel:

If this passes, this will be one of the worst decisions in the history of the site.

Thanks for your time.
-Heath

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Dude.

Ok, I read about a 1/3rd of your post and got a good idea where it was going. Now I'm pre-posting and listening to the material in question... I looked for the source but didn't find one called 'discovery' in the titling I found and didn't feel like listening to all of the songs.

Firstly, you should never expect that you're gonna get any kind genre limitations on the site. This isn't a battle against 'trance' per say, since many trance mixes still get posted on the site... this is a battle against the simplicity of the genre. You can argue the quality of the song all you want, that argument is there, but if the source is just touched upon and the arrangement is simple it often hits the panel with split reactions... partially because we are trying to fight our UNTSUNTSUNTSUNTS stereotype these days letting only the most exemplery of 'trance-ish' songs through.

You have a good ear and this is a good song. The comments should in no way make you feel bad about the amount of time or energy you put in to tweaking. You should focus on the fact that you got 2 yes's and a near no instead of the end result. And try to keep in mind, these guys have heard a LOT of techno.

This all said, the mix IS QUITE good. Please submit it here. (http://remix.thasauce.net/) More people should hear this song.

Oh, keep in mind too that they get a lot of people complaining about their judgings too... you actually, for the most part, are not complaining... but they hear this kind of thing regularly too.

[analog]

I totally agree with this. Ive put some trance stuff in the WIPs section, and while it got some good comments, it also got some comments that i should basicalyl make it less tance-like.

Trance is what it is, its not hiphop or rock or rap or anything else. It should either be accepted and judged properly, or not accepted at all. But if it isnt accepted at all, there will be some people leaving the site.

I really enjoy this remix of Siamey's, it has good progression, it doesnt get boring, and it has alot of good sounds that i wouldnt have thought to put in, and it has a good flow to it.

Thats all from me for now.
Steve

[Siamey]

thanks guys.

less ashamed of self, i understand what you mean, and thanks for attempting to help me look at it in a different light, but the point remains that there is a genre bias on ocr, and its not something im making up. especially with TO, thats my main gripe, i dont think someone with such a burning bias should be allowed to judge a song that they know they will instantly hate, and effect the rest of the panel with their attitude and buzzwords.

[realpolitik]

Dude.

This isn't a battle against 'trance' per say, since many trance mixes still get posted on the site... this is a battle against the simplicity of the genre. You can argue the quality of the song all you want, that argument is there, but if the source is just touched upon and the arrangement is simple it often hits the panel with split reactions... partially because we are trying to fight our UNTSUNTSUNTSUNTS stereotype these days letting only the most exemplery of 'trance-ish' songs through.


exemplary?

would you call Sir Nuts's blatantly FL "lightspeed" mix exemplary?

no.

bLiNd's? yes, probably.

Haroon's?

not at Siamey's level as of this song.


this song was amazing. i didn't dig the clarinet lead much, but it's pro shit.

all of the genres included in edm are going to be somewhat repetitive.

why?

because you're supposed to DANCE to them.

like with my recent prc entry

repetitive yes but

no fucking shit its house


it just has to do with the genre.

unless you want to invent a genre of "ocr trance" in which you have sweeping orchestral intros and your cute little crunchy breaks in the middle, then you're still going to have the bias against it.

zomg constant 4x4 beatz?!!?! ohnoes!111

this is a quality track, whether the judges appreciate it or not.


thanks for bringing this to light siamey.

cheers

[Navi]

all of the genres included in edm are going to be somewhat repetitive.

why?

because you're supposed to DANCE to them.

like with my recent prc entry

repetitive yes but

no fucking shit its house


it just has to do with the genre.

unless you want to invent a genre of "ocr trance" in which you have sweeping orchestral intros and your cute little crunchy breaks in the middle, then you're still going to have the bias against it.

zomg constant 4x4 beatz?!!?! ohnoes!111


This is pretty much gonna become the chiptune argument with different clothing.

Yes, some genres are simple in arrangement and yes, people do listen to them. Hell, if OCR allowed every genre that was simplistic, I'd be submitting a new 8 bar repeating hiphop track every week. The fact of the matter is, OCR has a standard of arrangement and certain genres do not meet the requirements in their traditional sense. And if this means doing all sorts of complicated arrangement shit to make a hiphop beat passable while keeping relatively close to the genre stylings, (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01424/) then thats what has to be done to pass the panel.

I listen to a lot of hiphop where the beat is nothing more than a repeating four bar and I love it. However, that would never pass the level of arrangement on. this. site. Not the be all and end all of music, but on this site. Likewise I enjoy edm music that is repeditive in nature. However, just like the hiphop, it wouldn't pass this site.

Now, I'm not referring to Siamey's track cause I haven't heard it and/or I'm not qualified enough to buff up the judges positions on the track. Just commenting on this quote.

[Dafydd]

Wow. The bar certainly is high. I sure as hell won't have any of my remixes accepted if this is how high the bar is set. I guess next time try the OCR cliché (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2447792#2447792), and you should get past the judge (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2448059#2448059)s.

Sometimes it feels like the Judges should focus more on the question "would people enjoy listening to this?" rather than "do I enjoy listening to this?"

I think you did pretty good though, you got a yes from Zircon and you didn't get a NO OVERRIDE from Vig.

[NeoS]

"Any genre or style of music is acceptable: Techno, Salsa, Rock, Classical, Ambient, Dub, Hillbilly, House, Trance*, Medley, Hybrid, Rave, Jungle, Instrumental, Ska - you name it."
and then later in small print:
"*note: submitting a trance song that is not blended with any of the aforementioned genres in order to water it down, prettymuch guarantees its rejection."

WTF is this saying? literally it says: Fuck trance, you can submit anything else that isn't remotely in the likeness of trance, and if you STILL feel you should submit trance, you're FUBAR because our judges won't accept it anyway. Nice going. And i just recently submitted a new trance piece. Now i know this, it's been a fucking waste of time and effort. Thanks for pointing this out Heath.

About biased reviews... there's always been people who have something against trance for some reason. And i know it's mostly about a 4/4 beat. DUH! It's invented to be used in the DANCE SCENE. Thousands of people dance on it in parties all around the globe. Especially the tune mentioned here would fit perfectly in such parties. Why it's rejected? My guess is it didn't fit the guidelines. ;) oh and OMGTEHTECHNOUNZUNZUNZBEATZR2GENERICLOL.

[realpolitik]

Wow. The bar certainly is high. I sure as hell won't have any of my remixes accepted if this is how high the bar is set. I guess next time try the OCR cliché (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2447792#2447792), and you should get past the judge (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2448059#2448059)s.


:lol:

damn straight.

[Navi]

"Any genre or style of music is acceptable: Techno, Salsa, Rock, Classical, Ambient, Dub, Hillbilly, House, Trance*, Medley, Hybrid, Rave, Jungle, Instrumental, Ska - you name it."
and then later in small print:
"*note: submitting a trance song that is not blended with any of the aforementioned genres in order to water it down, prettymuch guarantees its rejection."

WTF is this saying? literally it says: Fuck trance, you can submit anything else that isn't remotely in the likeness of trance, and if you STILL feel you should submit trance, you're FUBAR because our judges won't accept it anyway. Nice going. And i just recently submitted a new trance piece. Now i know this, it's been a fucking waste of time and effort. Thanks for pointing this out Heath.

If by pointing out, you mean writing it in himself, then yes. :roll:

[realpolitik]

Trance is what it is, its not hiphop or rock or rap or anything else. It should either be accepted and judged properly, or not accepted at all. But if it isnt accepted at all, there will be some people leaving the site.


lol that would literally be the coolest shit ever.

all trance remixes.

judges, are you sure there's no mixer bias in play here?

[Splunkle]

I think myf said it best. Some generes tend to have tracks that are rather boring in terms of arrangement. OCR's standards in terms of arrangment are clear, however. That doesn't mean OCR is at war or something with these genres, just that each individual track must conform to OCR's arrangement requirements. Claiming that boring arrangemnt is part of the genre is no defense.

Hell, look a pop-rock. While some of it is excellent, a lot of it has the most boring, crappy arrangement ever. You know, the guitarist who only knows three chords and so forth. If someone submitted a rock remix like that, would it get accepted? I don't think so.

That being said, TO was rather harsh and insulting in his judgement. Maybe he had a bad day?

[Siamey]

I think myf said it best. Some generes tend to have tracks that are rather boring in terms of arrangement. OCR's standards in terms of arrangment are clear, however. That doesn't mean OCR is at war or something with these genres, just that each individual track must conform to OCR's arrangement requirements. Claiming that boring arrangemnt is part of the genre is no defense.

Hell, look a pop-rock. While some of it is excellent, a lot of it has the most boring, crappy arrangement ever. You know, the guitarist who only knows three chords and so forth. If someone submitted a rock remix like that, would it get accepted? I don't think so.

That being said, TO was rather harsh and insulting in his judgement. Maybe he had a bad day?

that was a pretty rambling incoherent response with regards to the topic, though most of what you said makes sense, i dont see how it applies to this.
maybe you didnt read my first post.

Trance, to someone who isn't a fan, in its essence is "boring" in terms of arrangement, its a repetative genre, and it is that repetative nature that trance listeners enjoy, among other aspects.

If you want to resequence this song into a watered down OCR version, more listenable to people who dont like techno, go ahead. I refuse to sell out like that, trance is trance, and as long as they advertise that you can submit it here, ill have a gripe about it being rejected on the grounds that it is trance.

each individual track must conform to OCR's arrangement requirements.

im not claiming my song, or trance in general is boring. i fucking love trance, thats why i make it. i love my song too, i think its entertaining and not overly repetative at all. If you'd read my first post you would have gathered that.

and i guess TO is always having a bad day when he talks to me, thats the only explanation.

[Cerrax]

It's a very tough call to make. A lot of trance that gets submitted here is really bad. But some of it is very good, and some it that is accepted is very very questionable.

I love bLiNd's remixes, but songs like G-Storm, Blue Vision, and slightly Meteorave, are pretty much copies of the original with lots of trancey flair. I personally felt the re-arrangement was seriously lacking, but these very awesome trance mixes were accepted anyway.

Like wise, a lot of really good stuff (like this mix) gets shut down and for the life of me I can't fgure out why. This is an excellent piece, on par with any of the other trance mixes here. It has a lot in common with bLiNd's work, and I love it. Why this was not accepted is a complete tragedy.

But a lot of bad remixes are done in trance because on the surface, n00bs see trance as the asy way in. 4 on floor beat, repetitive chords, bouncy and repetitive synth lines. But anyone who knows and listens to enough trance knows that it is not like that at all. The subtle differences between a good trance mix and a bad one make a huge impact on the quality of it.

I think the judges forget that sometimes (they're only human). They judge tons of music all the time and sometimes you're just sick of the same stuff no matter how good it is. I've been a judge for speech and debate tournaments for years and I have to step back sometimes and take a good look at my own judging ability. Hearing the same types of speeches over and over again really weakens your liking of them, and there have been a few times I havce realized that I gave a good speaker a bad score because I've heard a speech about the war in Iraq 40,000 times before.

I suggest we use this thread as a petition for appeal. Maybe the judges have just passed this up on accident. It is certainly an OCR worthy track.

[Zoola]

Look, man. You made a pretty nice tune. But guess what? It got rejected. TOO FUCKING BAD. Live with it man! Revise it, take some more advice, resubmit. Or work on a new tune. At any rate, don't complain about it. Just use your experience to make new! I don't care if you've just started or have been doing this for years; you'll get something out of this experience. So live and learn.

[Navi]

that was a pretty rambling incoherent response with regards to the topic, though most of what you said makes sense, i dont see how it applies to this.
maybe you didnt read my first post.

Trance, to someone who isn't a fan, in its essence is "boring" in terms of arrangement, its a repetative genre, and it is that repetative nature that trance listeners enjoy, among other aspects.

I do believe I already addressed that issue in regards to the subject of a genre being perfectly listenable to the average audience but not conforming to the standards set by OCR. I'll refer you to my last post.

If you want to resequence this song into a watered down OCR version, more listenable to people who dont like techno, go ahead. I refuse to sell out like that, trance is trance, and as long as they advertise that you can submit it here, ill have a gripe about it being rejected on the grounds that it is trance.

No, you'll have gripes with it being rejected on the grounds that it is trance and does not conform to the arrangement standards of OCR. You're allowed to do that. I understand that OCR is the only place at this point in time to really showcase VG remixes, but there's a standard here set by the creator of the site and in order for songs to be posted on this site they must meet the requirements set by said creator. If you don't like those standards, that's fine. No one is forcing you to submit. No one is forcing you to sell out. You can produce your brand of trance remixes all you want and you can show them to whoever you want and no one will complain. But the moment you submit it to this site, you're giving it to the judges panel to accept or reject based on the standards of the site and the bar.

Don't know if your song meets the bar? Save yourself the five month hassle and hit up a judge on AIM or IRC or PM. Show it to them and get their opinion on whether it meets standard. More often than not, they'll give you good input/advice. I know this because I've done it many times in the past. Face it. It's idealistic to assume that everyone who submits reads the Judge's Decisions religiously and has a decent idea of where the bar stands, but at least try and educate yourself a little before you send that email. If it's a great edm song and everyone's digging it and it sounds awesome, then that's great. Does it meet the OCR arrangement standard and the "bar"? No. Then don't bother submitting. Find a different venue to showcase it. Again, no one is forcing you to submit here.

You don't have to sell out, if you insist on calling it that. I cite back to my previous point about the repeditive nature of most hiphop beats - I know they don't pass the standards. I know in other areas, they'll be most appreciated. Hell, I know a decent amount of people here would appreciate them. However, they don't meet the arrangement standard set by this website and the administrator and judges of this website. Go find somewhere else to pimp them. Hell, you can pimp them in the WIP forums and no one would tell you otherwise. Hiphop is hiphop and trance is trance. They have their own genre specific sounds that make them what they are. That's wonderful. However, if you want to put a hiphop or trance piece on this site, you need to mold it in a way that it passes the standard of arrangement on this site. Or you could just wait until VGmix comes back up.

[Dafydd]

I guess you're right.

Maybe there needs to be a Video Game Music Trance site.

[Siamey]

get the fuck out of this thread zoola. you havent even given me the courtesy of trying to understand that the point of this thread is not to complain but to discuss the genre bias at ocr.

..and myf, those comments about the rambling incoherent response were not directed at you, you know.

By the way myf, i pmed my mix to zirc and he said good things about it, he thought i had a good chance.

Again you seem to be missing my main point here, Its none of my business whether or not they want it on the site, im simply suggesting that they take "trance" off the site submission guidelines.

My GRIPE is that trance in itself does not conform to the standards of OCR, and therefore they should not flaunt that it is worth submitting an actual trance song, only songs with the socially acceptable aspects of trance, something watered down for the masses. OCRtech/OCRtrance if you will.

You're missing the point im trying to bring up that trance in its actual form here has little to no place here because the majority of the judges panel refuses to accept that their other favourite genres have not been heard in the song. They can't enjoy it for what it is and therefor assume that this song would not be a valuable asset for the OCR collection.

[Zoola]

Look, all I'm saying is that you shouldn't expect your songs to pass, and if they don't, it's not the end of the world. Instead of trying to conform OCR around your song, why don't you try to conform your song for OCR? Or, like myf said, wait for VGMix to come back up. Sorry if I came off as harsh. :oops:

[Dafydd]

You're missing the point im trying to bring up that trance in its actual form here has little to no place here because the majority of the judges panel refuses to accept that their other favourite genres have not been heard in the song. They can't enjoy it for what it is and therefor assume that this song would not be a valuable asset for the OCR collection.

The question is - is it the judges or DJP's guidelines that are f'd up? Maybe none of them agree on your definition of trance, and then that could be the problem, I guess.

Instead of trying to conform OCR around your song, why don't you try to conform your song for OCR?

I think he answered that question clearly enough. Plus, this is HIS remix. Why would he want to conform HIS music to anyone else's opinion? Of course, if he doesn't, he can't expect it to pass... :)

[Siamey]

This is exactly what im saying, I should be conforming my song to make it good, to make it a good song, true to its genre, not trying to please some stuck up judges who just straight up arent a fan of a certain genre, and would rather i change it to suit them rather than letting the trance lovers at ocr enjoy my perfectly good song.

[Zoola]

This is exactly what im saying, I should be conforming my song to make it good, to make it a good song, true to its genre, not trying to please some stuck up judges who just straight up arent a fan of a certain genre, and would rather i change it to suit them rather than letting the trance lovers at ocr enjoy my perfectly good song.
Hmm, I suppose I see where you are coming from. I suggest you talk to the pretzel himself on this one; this thread is isn't going to do much.

[Navi]

..and myf, those comments about the rambling incoherent response were not directed at you, you know.

Point taken. My bad.

By the way myf, i pmed my mix to zirc and he said good things about it, he thought i had a good chance.

And he voted yes. However, he's not the only one voting. I know it's out of place to refer to myself, but usually (althought sometimes I havent) I like to run my track through four or five judges before submitting, so there's no doubt in my mind of its passing. At least then, I can be sure that I won't wait three to four months only to see a rejection. For my FFX-2 remix, I ran it by every single member of the panel before I sent that email. Now, I'm not everyone and I don't expect everyone to be me.

I'm not going to sugar coat the judges decisions and say they weren't harsh with you. I read the decision and they did seem harsh, but it's not my place to defend that. If they want to defend themselves against your accusations, let them.

Again you seem to be missing my main point here, Its none of my business whether or not they want it on the site, im simply suggesting that they take "trance" off the site submission guidelines.

My GRIPE is that trance in itself does not conform to the standards of OCR, and therefore they should not flaunt that it is worth submitting an actual trance song, only songs with the socially acceptable aspects of trance, something watered down for the masses. OCRtech/OCRtrance if you will.

You're missing the point im trying to bring up that trance in its actual form here has little to no place here because the majority of the judges panel refuses to accept that their other favourite genres have not been heard in the song. They can't enjoy it for what it is and therefor assume that this song would not be a valuable asset for the OCR collection.

And again, I'm telling you that if you don't want to submit based on your definition of trance, then that's entirely your perogative. It's an interesting counter to the many people who register just to complain about how much trance there is on this website and the obvious groove bias the judges have towards trance. Many people want to - and do - listen to and enjoy the so-called bastardized trance that you claim is only allowed on this site. To say that trance, apparently a generalized term seeing as how the bastardized OCRtech/OCRtrance is still a form of trance, is not allowed on this site or should be stricken from the record in regards to what should or should not be submitted to this site is wrong.

You say that trance itself doesn't conform to the standards of this site? I never knew music was of such rigid structure that it couldn't be tweaked or evolved just enough without completely losing any form of meaning or value that it has. And that's only to meet these guidelines, not necessarily to become a better music.

Judges judge based on their personal bias? I don't see Gray complaining about how every mix needs to have ethnic sounds or new age pads. I don't see JigginJonT whining about how a track would be better if there was a piano in it, or Vig complaining about the lack of guitar in an orchestral remix. I don't see Larry complaining about lack of watermelon at the picnic table when he knows that I'm allergic to watermelon.

Judges are human. They try, as much as they can, to vote without bias. Now again, I'm not here to defend TO's vote or anything like that. If you feel he voted unfairly, then it's his initiative to defend how he voted or how he phrased his words.

edit:

This is exactly what im saying, I should be conforming my song to make it good, to make it a good song, true to its genre, not trying to please some stuck up judges who just straight up arent a fan of a certain genre, and would rather i change it to suit them rather than letting the trance lovers at ocr enjoy my perfectly good song.

And I feel and appreciate that. Don't get me wrong - I'm in no way attacking you. I'm just saying that if you're not going to make your song in a way that fits a standard that is pretty general, then don't submit it and don't expect it to get passed on merit of it being accurate to a genre alone. Keep it in other venues, like this very WIP thread, where many people are downloading and enjoying it. There! You've found an alternative way to distribute your remix. Us mods wont police the WIP threads making sure all the wips conform to OCR standards. Short of locking midi-rip threads, we let whatever be posted here.

Once again, no one is forcing you to submit here.

[Siamey]

i agree with all your points myf.
still, im not the only one who agrees that there is a definite bias against harder and more pure styles of techno/trance here. a speecore song will never get on OCR as long as i live but im leaving that battle for someone else.

[Navi]

i agree with all your points myf.
still, im not the only one who agrees that there is a definite bias against harder and more pure styles of techno/trance here. a speecore song will never get on OCR as long as i live but im leaving that battle for someone else.

I think that you're misusing the word "bias" in this context, then. It's not so much a bias as it is a compliance with the criteria. If the judges or the site truly had a bias against trance, then a lot of the songs accepted on this site wouldn't have been, including many pieces by former judges and djpretzel himself.

The criteria attempts to be as general as possible (it's not like this site only accepts very specific genres - don't even try to argue that one). However, certain genres of music just wouldn't meet it. I can think of so many genres or subgenres that wouldn't pass through the bar - that's not a bias. As a result of this, artists who do want to get on the site must take some creative liberties with the mix in relation to the genre specifications. If you feel that that's too much of a compromise, then that's your opinion and I can respect that.

On that note, I finally listened to your remix and I like it a lot, save for the woodwind that comes in about halfway through. It's a very good song and I'll be keeping it for listening purposes, but I can see where the judges are coming from as well.

edit: wow, for some reason all this time I thought this thread was in WIP. Heh, my bad. Siamey, unless you feel like there's more that can be added to this discussion of the standard (this thread should have been locked right from the get go, as all post-rejection threads usually are - seeing as how they usually degenerate into flaming and whatnot), I'd like to ask your permission to lock this. However, feel free to make a thread to pimp out the track in WIP as I'm sure there's many other people who would appreciate getting their grubby little hands on this mp3.

[Siamey]

If the judges or the site truly had a bias against trance, then a lot of the songs accepted on this site wouldn't have been, including many pieces by former judges and djpretzel himself.


there are a couple trance songs on the site, most of it is techno, thats where i point comes in. alot of it is OCRtech, very highly melodic and not as beat oriented... or production oriented :?

its those songs i have arrangement problems with, they are so sugar coated to work with peoples short attention spans. these songs could be classified as trance if you really wanted them to but in actuality they are conformed to fit the taste of people who cannot appreciate the godly repitition of dance music.
its called selling out.

[Navi]

If the judges or the site truly had a bias against trance, then a lot of the songs accepted on this site wouldn't have been, including many pieces by former judges and djpretzel himself.


there are a couple trance songs on the site, most of it is techno, thats where i point comes in. alot of it is OCRtech, very highly melodic and not as beat oriented... or production oriented :?

its those songs i have arrangement problems with, they are so sugar coated to work with peoples short attention spans. these songs could be classified as trance if you really wanted them to but in actuality they are conformed to fit the taste of people who cannot appreciate the godly repitition of dance music.
its called selling out.

Actually, it's buying in. Not selling out. Remember that, son!

Seriously, though. Yes, a trance purist could very well say the trance on this site is "selling out". That's fine. OCR is not trying to appeal to each and every genre purist in the world, just a general audience. And this general audience enjoys the OCR trance.

Also, check my edit above.

[Siamey]

this topic should not be thought to be centered around my song, fuck my song, im trying to bring up an inportant point here.

this belongs in the remixing forums because its central to the concept of remixing, its not a post-rejection thread, and it hasnt degenerated into flaming.

[Navi]

Very well. I've pretty much said my piece. I'll step back now. ;)

No bad blood, I hope?

[Siamey]

and im glad this audience enjoys OCRtrance, i enjoy it too, but this audience also enjoys actual trance music. i have no really problem with watered down trance, except when it is taken for actual trance.

i dont want anyone to not be able to listen to the music they like, i would just request that they take the word "trance" off that page. besides "techno" is still on that list, and thats what the OCRtech stuff is anyways.

[Siamey]

no bad blood, youve brought some good points and i thank you for not flaming or totally shutting my ass down with anything stupid.

[Chavous]

Well...I can see Siamey's point.

Since they already have techno up there, and most people regard all BOOMTISS under techno, then logically there is no need for the word trance to be up there.

If you ask me what my post implies, it implies exactly what it says, nothing more.

[Dafydd]

myf? You're allergic to watermelon?

Ha ha

Ok not funny

BTW I have no idea what separates trance from techno or dance or... any of those genres. Maybe I can tell house from the others but I'm not sure.

[Chavous]

^ My point. (Same here though :lol: )

[The Vagrance]

I must say, Siamey brings up an excellent point. To be completely honest, there are very few people on this board that I know of that I could say are knowledgable about electronic music. Say you like Crystal Method on here, you're part of a fairly large group, say you like Crystal Method on a real electronic music board, you'll probably get noted for you bad taste. Don't think I'm kidding, electronic music boards look down on this site because all of the electronic stuff seems to be force-fed and molded and mashed to fit OCR standards, and if it doesn't have the OCR standard of arrangement, then you're pretty much fucked. Pretty much the only genre that has a chance of going unchanged is, well, Breaks. If Bad Company UK - Planet Dust was a remix, I doubt it'd get accepted because its too repetitive, yet its a Drum and Bass CLASSIC. OCR needs to be more aware as to the different types of genres being submitted, and they need to adjust the judges panel to include members of this board that have been around for a while and are extremely knowledgable about different genres. Someone who's really knowledgable about Trance could probably do a better job judging than most of the judges. I'm not trying to shoot down the judges, but just because a song follows a typical club format (intro for 64 bars with 4/4 beat, breakdown for the 32 bars then bring it all back motherfucker for the drop for another 64 bars, then go into a second drop, then ooutroo) doesn't mean its bad. The reason why the songs are set up this way is for DJs, and if you want Video Game Remixes to truly reach all sorts of different communities then you shouldn't shun true electronic music. Wouldn't it be cool if someone did a DJ set full of VG Remixes? Well, at the moment thats not really possible as I can on think of BliNd's stuff being even close to be able to do that with. I know saying this may seem a bit extreme, but this community has a serious bias against electronic music.

[NeoS]

Amen.

Other communities looking down on OCR for the arrangement of certain tracks is kind of logical. Especially if you bare in mind that when you remix someones work, you take your creative ideas and make something different but equally good from it.

Now, let's just compare a "Tiesto" case. Disney asked him to remix "i'm a pirate" from "pirates of the Caribbean". Do you think he'd change his composition if someone from Disney felt that it wasn't good enough? Fuck no. Now i know we can't compare ourselves to a Tiesto or Infected Mushroom or whatever, but it shouldn't be so that you have to kill your own creativity because someone else thinks it would be better if you'd make it "this or that" way...

Don't get me wrong, i like OCR as a community and i think the judges do a fairly good job, but concerning trance (one of my favorite genres) i feel the reviewing is too biased. I know now that sending in 'typical' trance pieces is useless unless you're on par with say... bLiNd.
I guess because of that, new trance producers won't have a chance. Especially here.

[Splunkle]

I think myf said it best. Some generes tend to have tracks that are rather boring in terms of arrangement. OCR's standards in terms of arrangment are clear, however. That doesn't mean OCR is at war or something with these genres, just that each individual track must conform to OCR's arrangement requirements. Claiming that boring arrangemnt is part of the genre is no defense.

Hell, look a pop-rock. While some of it is excellent, a lot of it has the most boring, crappy arrangement ever. You know, the guitarist who only knows three chords and so forth. If someone submitted a rock remix like that, would it get accepted? I don't think so.

That being said, TO was rather harsh and insulting in his judgement. Maybe he had a bad day?

that was a pretty rambling incoherent response with regards to the topic, though most of what you said makes sense, i dont see how it applies to this.
maybe you didnt read my first post.

Trance, to someone who isn't a fan, in its essence is "boring" in terms of arrangement, its a repetative genre, and it is that repetative nature that trance listeners enjoy, among other aspects.

If you want to resequence this song into a watered down OCR version, more listenable to people who dont like techno, go ahead. I refuse to sell out like that, trance is trance, and as long as they advertise that you can submit it here, ill have a gripe about it being rejected on the grounds that it is trance.

each individual track must conform to OCR's arrangement requirements.

im not claiming my song, or trance in general is boring. i fucking love trance, thats why i make it. i love my song too, i think its entertaining and not overly repetative at all. If you'd read my first post you would have gathered that.

Thats preety harsh, Siamey. I wasn't attacking you, and if you think I was, I apologise. I admit that my post was preety rambling, so I will try to clarify my argument here:

1) Not all trance has "boring" arrangement. Some of it is amazing in terms of arrangement.

2) OCR has a minimum standard that MUST be met in terms of arrangement.

3) Therefore, those tracks with amazing arrangement qualify for OCR.

4) Therefore, some trance tracks qualify for OCR.

5) Therefore, Trance should stay on the list of acceptable genres.

Now, if you want to call all trance tracks with really nice arrangement watered-down, or sold out, or whatever, thats your choice. But there are those like me who think they are still trance.

So, from this I conclude that the reason your track was rejected was not because it was trance, but because it wasn't up to the arrangement bar. The two issues are seperate. Thats what I'm saying.


Doomsday: I am afraid I must disagree. Assuming you are proposing what I think you are proposing, which is allowing some genres to be judged to a lower arrangement standard, because that is the "nature of the genre". Please, correct me if I am wrong. But assuming I am right:

If we start allowing trance, or hip-hop, or <insert genre here> mixes to be judged with a lower bar in terms of arrangement, we just started down the path to true bias. Why should a mix have to be more complex in terms of arrangement just beacuse it is solo piano?

If people like repeditive EDM stuff, thats cool - but they can get their jollies elsewhere. As myf pointed out, there is the WIP forum, VGmix (when it comes back up), OLRemix, Remix:ThaSauce and probably a bunch of other places that I have no idea about. There are other places for stuff that doesn't agree with OCR's guidelines, and those places should be used. OCR has made its purpose, methodology and standards clear.

[The Vagrance]

Thats preety harsh, Siamey. I wasn't attacking you, and if you think I was, I apologise. I admit that my post was preety rambling, so I will try to clarify my argument here:

1) Not all trance has "boring" arrangement. Some of it is amazing in terms of arrangement.

Its not particularly boring, its just very formulaic in its structure. The same can be said for almost all electronic music genres, the problem is, OCR doesn't like this type of arrangement and points always get deducted for this kind of arrangement.

2) OCR has a minimum standard that MUST be met in terms of arrangement.

I'm not saying to start accepting MIDI rips just because they have a club beat and stuff, but what I am saying is OCR should accept all sorts of different types of song structures. You can get very creative with a remix while staying in the typical club format for a song, but the judges bitched about the remix because of it. They should be more accepting of different song structures.

3) Therefore, those tracks with amazing arrangement qualify for OCR.

I think OCR should judge according to style, because music is very varied. Excluding certain song structures is a dumb idea because it limits your audiance. If the goal of OCR is to earn some respect for VGRemixes, making some club bangers would be the perfect way to do this, especially considering how easy it'd be to give a DJ a tune and ask him to play it. If we make it accessable to DJs and they like it then they'll spread that song to even more people, then some people will wonder "I wonder where that song came from" and the song will spread.

4) Therefore, some trance tracks qualify for OCR.

Only if you dumb them down, and if you dumb something down for one community, you're sure to piss off another

5) Therefore, Trance should stay on the list of acceptable genres.

Its not so much taking trance off the list as it is OCR only accepting stuff that has the type of arrangement they like. It wouldn't matter if there were some more club types of tracks on here but there really aren't. Even bLiNd's stuff's structure is altered. All of the song judging and stuff for OCR is much different than other forums, like I said before, vgremixing has just become its own little niche genre that no one cares about except the people in it.

Now, if you want to call all trance tracks with really nice arrangement watered-down, or sold out, or whatever, thats your choice. But there are those like me who think they are still trance.

Just because it has nice arrangement doesn't mean its watered down, it means the person put it together nicely.

So, from this I conclude that the reason your track was rejected was not because it was trance, but because it wasn't up to the arrangement bar. The two issues are seperate. Thats what I'm saying.

In terms of arrangement, his song was more trance-like than anything else on this website, and it was rejected because of that. The judges didn't like the typical club-style format. If someone can pull out 5 accepted (fairly recent) remixes that have a clubstyle format, then I'll take it back, but I highly doubt that'll happen.

Doomsday: I am afraid I must disagree. Assuming you are proposing what I think you are proposing, which is allowing some genres to be judged to a lower arrangement standard, because that is the "nature of the genre". Please, correct me if I am wrong. But assuming I am right:

If we start allowing trance, or hip-hop, or <insert genre here> mixes to be judged with a lower bar in terms of arrangement, we just started down the path to true bias. Why should a mix have to be more complex in terms of arrangement just beacuse it is solo piano?

Its not about lowering the bar for some genres and raising it for others, its about being aware of different song structures and arrangements, and accepting different ones. Some people like repetitive stuff, some don't, but you should at least have some for both and not all for one.

If people like repeditive EDM stuff, thats cool - but they can get their jollies elsewhere. As myf pointed out, there is the WIP forum, VGmix (when it comes back up), OLRemix, Remix:ThaSauce and probably a bunch of other places that I have no idea about. There are other places for stuff that doesn't agree with OCR's guidelines, and those places should be used. OCR has made its purpose, methodology and standards clear.

Then OCR has failed in its original purpose because it keeps excluding certain genres by rejecting this type of song structure.

[ambient]

I've first heard this track just as Siamey was about to submit it. I really enjoyed it especially for the crisp top-notch production. I was not a fan of the woodwind instrument, and told Siamey he probably should have used a fat lead synth instead. Now I realize that it would have even lesser chance of passing if he did that.

Regarding the vote, I think zircon summed it up best and it kinda shows his realistic expectations towards an electronic remix - high production value track and not a 3-part sonatina. I can see how judges get swamped with an incredible amount of shitty-wannabe-FLdefault trance that leaves sour taste in their mouths for 4/4 tracks, but they gotta be able to tell the difference when it comes to near professional quality music, they gotta be able to tell "booty from a butt crack." Also, I thought when one of the judges noted that the similarity of the synths used in the track to those he heard in club tracks on the radio as a bad thing, well, I am sorry, but that makes completely no sense. So, if synths sound like those that get played in clubs and on the radio, they are generic and dumb? I thought that default unprocessed samples sound generic, and not professional quality synths. You know, that logic eludes me, if electronic OCReMixers are not trying to approach the level of artists that get played on the radio, then what should they strive for? I am not saying that judges actually think that way, I think it was just a dumb argument to make.

Now, the arrangement in this track is not the kind that would blow your mind, but its obviously there. In terms of production/arrangement it is similar to recent remixes by sgx and blind (Mario Paint and FFX respectively).

Honestly, I don't think this case here is whether "ocr should be open-minded to trance genre adaptations." Let's not make this issue bigger than it really is. We all know the rules of ocr, its not a genre adaptation site, but a rearrangement site . Genre has no importance to the judges, they care about production and arrangement. I think the real issue here is judges making a bad call on this ocr-quality remix. But it happens, and sometimes happens both ways.

[Dafydd]

Sometimes they let on stuff here that really shouldn't pass. Like Pacaud's most recent one.

[zircon]

Well, that's part of the beauty of having a panel of judges. We all try to be as objective as possible, but being perfectly objective is impossible. We all have different ears, different listening setups, and different levels of musical experience/exposure. Disagreements within the panel are common and discussed in a civilized manner either on the private boards or in the judge chat on IRC. For example, I voted NO on the CPacaud mix that recently passed for a variety of reasons that I detailed, but it was a close call. I can see why someone would go YES. Conversely, this Siamey mix earned a YES from me but some of my fellow judges were not convinced.

[The Orichalcon]

As I said in IRC a moment ago:

[01:15] <The_Orichalcon> this is very similar to the chiptune thing
[01:15] <The_Orichalcon> except this time on the arrangement side
[01:15] <The_Orichalcon> Siamey's expecting us to make an exception because the source is minimal
[01:15] <The_Orichalcon> just like shna was expecting us to make an exception on the production because the genre was limiting
[01:16] <The_Orichalcon> everything has to be held within the standards, if the source is minimal, then don't expect a trance piece to work for it

I was harsh in my vote, but that's life. I had to be harsh since the piece was about to pass when it clearly was not fitting our standards. I don't have bias against techno/trance. I've YES'ed many good remixes of this genre that passed our standards.

Siamey, your mix was good. You should leave it the way it is if you're happy with it. The source was minimal, and as expected your remix was very liberal on the source too. Sometimes a source tune just won't transpose itself well to a certain genre. This is a perfect example. You can try to incorporate more of the source into your remix if you want to or you can leave it the way it is. Either way this site has standards, and in submitting you have to expect that the judges will judge every mix the same under these standards. Whether it's techno, trance, orchestral, chiptune, etc. We can't make exceptions for the way a genre is "supposed to" sound. If it doesn't fit our standards and/or guidelines, then it's not going to pass.

That's just the way things are here. Most people manage to accept that without getting into a big hoo-ha about it. But if you think you've been badly done-by and it's detrimental to your effort, nobody is forcing you to stick around and be marched over by the fascist Judges.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Everybody knows it's impossible to make a good mix from a short source. (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01311/)

[Liontamer]

Well, I didn't see this thread or check my Ormgas box for a few days, so I've missed all the fireworks. But lemme cover a few points:

"Sometimes it feels like the Judges should focus more on the question "would people enjoy listening to this?" rather than "do I enjoy listening to this?"
Much like other songs where fans or artists complain that those songs were rejected, people generally assume the worst, so I'll make this point again. Generally speaking, we don't YES/NO based merely on what we like. All the panelists have YESed stuff they don't personally care for and NOed stuff that they like and have even kept on their hard drives. Gray said he'd never listen to CPacaud's ZAMN mix again, but he recognized that the arrangement and production of that mix were strong enough to pass. Appealing to personal interests isn't what gets you a YES decision.

sounded like the club music they'd play on Top 40 stations during the live weekend parties during the mid-to-late '90s.

OK so i make clubtrance? im not gonna deny it, i like that kind of music.
Im not looking to create some new type of genre when i make a song, even one i plan on submitting to OCR, lets get that straight. I make trance music, through and through.
I dont make some new blend of trance that is more palletable to people who arent into techno music. I dont make some sort of OCRtrance, some fusion of a 4/4 beat with your other favourite genre.

thats not what we do, we who make straight up trance, and we're persecuted for it.
I don't think you understand that that wasn't supposed to be a putdown. I was reacting to zircon saying that he felt the sounds weren't cliche, whereas I thought they were since I'd heard them many times before. Based on your follow-up, it looks like I was correct.

But at the same time, I said "nonetheless, it's put together very capably and sounds authentic." That's a good thing. You went for this style and pulled it off in what I felt was near pro-level, and I wasn't "persecuting" the genre or asking you to create a new genre. My YES didn't turn into a NO because I somehow thought "wait, this is trance."

I don't speak for the others but MY issue after hearing TO's complaints was that the source material wasn't integrated enough into the arrangement. It is not about the fact that this is trance.

The strings at 1:11 are a really liberal take on the strings from :55 of the original, only Heath's had a progression, rather than basically playing the same note over and over again. That's a connection that I heard, but that is in fact too liberal to be of much consequence in the big picture.
Taking a string part from the original that was one repeating note, and then using your own strings to mimick the timing but play 4 different notes 4 times each isn't really what I consider interpretation. That's more of an example of new writing that's very loosely based off the source from my POV.

From 2:19-4:09, you were doing some viable, overt arrangement of the source material, but that's only about 32% of your 5:46-long arrangement. Even if you count those strings from 1:11, everything else going on around the strings is wholly unrelated to developing/interpreting the source material. To me, "Discovery" is too frequently not at the core of the arrangement. By the time you get to the melody for the first time, the song's 40% over. I think you can work in more aspects of the source material into the song without moving it into "melodic trance" and somehow "selling out" at this free amateur music site.

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but I don't care that this is trance. And actually counter to what Mythril Nazgul and/or others have said or implied to some extent, you don't have to dilute what you feel is the appropriate trance structure. Trance is not even a genre where you have to make those types of creative sacrifices. But you do have to recognizably intregrate interpretation from the source material into the majority of the track.

[Dafydd]

"Sometimes it feels like the Judges should focus more on the question "would people enjoy listening to this?" rather than "do I enjoy listening to this?"
Much like other songs where fans or artists complain that those songs were rejected, people generally assume the worst, so I'll make this point again. Generally speaking, we don't YES/NO based merely on what we like. All the panelists have YESed stuff they don't personally care for and NOed stuff that they like and have even kept on their hard drives. Gray said he'd never listen to CPacaud's ZAMN mix again, but he recognized that the arrangement and production of that mix were strong enough to pass. Appealing to personal interests isn't what gets you a YES decision.


I'm sorry. I didn't mean it like that. I don't remember what I meant. It just feels like the community is being bereft of hearing so many great mixes that just weren't good enough to the judges, but that would have been perfectly good enough for almost anyone else. But then again that's what thaSauce is for, I guess. The more I think about this, the more I feel like it was the right thing to NO this, but then again, I'm not familiar with the source tune, so I can't say much about how it could have been used better / more or not, but after listening to the remix Geoff just linked us to, I have to say that... the Judges were right. I still think many of them came off unecessarily harsh.

[the_p00t]

for what it counts, i liked it.

[Darangen]

Judgehate +1

Personally I think you're remixing for the wrong reasons. You should do it because it's fun, it's creative, and it's an excellent way to explore you're own imagination. Making remixes for the sole purpose of getting them posted here (or anywhere, for that matter) is not only stupid, but unfulfilling.

I know from experience, I'm not just trying to talk down to you. For my first several songs I got nothing but no's from the judges. I stopped trying to get posted and just started having fun and now I have 4 or 5 songs on here.

Let me be clear on this though, having fun is not a gaurantee of being posted. I still get rejected too. The difference is it doesn't bother me anymore. The joy of remixing is awarded when I finish a song, not if/when it's posted.

[CC Ricers]

Oh wow. Something like this comes up and it's already hit 4 pages in one day. Maybe I should hit the remixing forum more, I might miss something.

This is much like an exaggeration of Analoq's complaint of "OMG the judges hate teh tekno", as he's probably the guy that "gets" this kind of music the most, out of the judges. I was disappointed when the Frohn C64 mix was rejected. Okay, I can see why some people NO'd this. But a NO RESUBMIT would have been nicer. Well, I thought the source was very fitting for this style of music. The name of the game is variation, not just subtle variation but a constant transformation of the melodies and riffs throughout the song. I think setting a mood should be another imporant deciding factor, other than rearrangment.

This is probably a backlash to all the electronic-sounding stuff OCR got in its early days. So MANY trance-ified and electrofied music exists with default samples, loops and even riffs I've heard elsewhere. This site has come a long way, OCR music has greatly diversified, and in turn the bar for electronic music has been raised. People hoping to make OC Remixes in a type of dance music true to its style will inevitably struggle some more, in trying to please both the electronic and video game crowds without compromise. It's a balancing act. It's like, um, porting a PS2 game to the PSP without sacrificing features and great controls :P Only very few people can effectively pull it off. And in trance, there's only exactly one person, bLiNd, who I think has done it.

There's always the totally democratic VGMix even though that's still down. I know I'm not the only one who's made a "please the judges" version of a mix along with one I favor more personally. There are a few certain trance mixes in the WIP section that I enjoy, but make me say to myself that these will unfortunately not be accepted.

[DrumUltimA]

If you're going to change anything ocr, would it be changing this:
"Any genre or style of music is acceptable: Techno, Salsa, Rock, Classical, Ambient, Dub, Hillbilly, House, Trance*, Medley, Hybrid, Rave, Jungle, Instrumental, Ska - you name it."
and then later in small print:
"*note: submitting a trance song that is not blended with any of the aforementioned genres in order to water it down, prettymuch guarantees its rejection."

to this:

"Any piece that achives a high level and equal regard to both production and arrangement."

[Legion303]

Techno shits, lole.

-steve

[Zoola]

Everybody knows it's impossible to make a good mix from a short source. (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01311/)
Eh? (http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01234/)

[Dafydd]

Well, Geoff was being sarcastic, but I just don't know about you, Zoola.

[sgx]

I realized that my mixes had to usually be in a certain "OCR style" of electronic to pass/please those in charge a while ago, so basically I don't mix much anymore. Not that I dislike the OCR electronic style, but I don't like to start a piece with stylistic guidlines in place already (If I did like that, I'd be tying to do music for a living....I am not). It is unfortunate I think, but I can see points on both sides.

Originals are where it is at :). You make it > people enjoy it. Very nice and easy.

I guess DJ Siamey has a point with the trance listed as ok in the submission part of the site because obviously in general 'authentic' trance rarely gets accepted, but it is a bit arguing over semantics there. Maybe just using "electronic music" instead of all the electronic genres listed there would be good.

[Navi]

We iz aguin ova some words now shit homiez betta reprzent word life.

[Dhsu]

The strings at 1:11 are a really liberal take on the strings from :55 of the original, only Heath's had a progression, rather than basically playing the same note over and over again. That's a connection that I heard, but that is in fact too liberal to be of much consequence in the big picture.
Taking a string part from the original that was one repeating note, and then using your own strings to mimick the timing but play 4 different notes 4 times each isn't really what I consider interpretation. That's more of an example of new writing that's very loosely based off the source from my POV.
But Larry, that's not an ocarina! :lol:

1:18-1:24 in Siamey's mix does in fact coincide with 1:00-1:13 in "Discovery"...both start with the same two-note interval (D and Bb) and move to the same two-note interval (D and A).

From 2:19-4:09, you were doing some viable, overt arrangement of the source material, but that's only about 32% of your 5:46-long arrangement. Even if you count those strings from 1:11, everything else going on around the strings is wholly unrelated to developing/interpreting the source material. To me, "Discovery" is too frequently not at the core of the arrangement. By the time you get to the melody for the first time, the song's 40% over. I think you can work in more aspects of the source material into the song without moving it into "melodic trance" and somehow "selling out" at this free amateur music site.

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but I don't care that this is trance. And actually counter to what Mythril Nazgul and/or others have said or implied to some extent, you don't have to dilute what you feel is the appropriate trance structure. Trance is not even a genre where you have to make those types of creative sacrifices. But you do have to recognizably intregrate interpretation from the source material into the majority of the track.
That's strange, I don't remember "majority of the track" ever being part of the site's mixing criteria...but just to give you the benefit of the doubt, Mr. Oji, let's take a look at Haroon's "CorelPrison(StringMachineMix)", shall we?

The source material doesn't come into until 1:29. It continues until 2:10, where there's a short interlude. It then picks back up at 3:08, and keeps going for most of the remainder of the track, until about 4:17. So that's a total of about 1 minute and 50 seconds of source material, out of a total 4 minute 46 second-long track. That's 38% in case you were counting, Larry. And may I also point out that there's almost nothing preventing pretty much ANY melody with a similar chord progression from being pasted onto Haroon's mix? Yet despite all this, "StringMachine" is still considered by many to be one of the hallmark tracks of the site.

Anyway...my advice to you, Siamey, is if you want the mix to be accepted onto the site, you need to give in to the trend and pop some orchestra in your mix. Then it'll be a winner for sure.

[Theowne]

I had to be harsh since the piece was about to pass when it clearly was not fitting our standards.

Jeez, that was a kind of egoistical thing to say. If it was about to pass, that would be because the other judges did think it was fitting OCR standards. Do you have some sort of responsibility over all the other judges or something?

[suzumebachi]

OCR is the only place at this point in time to really showcase VG remixes...

diaf (http://remix.thasauce.net/). :(


also:

"Any genre or style of music is acceptable: Techno, Salsa, Rock, Classical, Ambient, Dub, Hillbilly, House, Trance*, Medley, Hybrid, Rave, Jungle, Instrumental, Ska - you name it."
and then later in small print:
"*note: submitting a trance song that is not blended with any of the aforementioned genres in order to water it down, prettymuch guarantees its rejection."

WTF is this saying? literally it says: Fuck trance, you can submit anything else that isn't remotely in the likeness of trance, and if you STILL feel you should submit trance, you're FUBAR because our judges won't accept it anyway. Nice going. And i just recently submitted a new trance piece. Now i know this, it's been a fucking waste of time and effort. Thanks for pointing this out Heath.

If you're going to change anything ocr, would it be changing this:
"Any genre or style of music is acceptable: Techno, Salsa, Rock, Classical, Ambient, Dub, Hillbilly, House, Trance*, Medley, Hybrid, Rave, Jungle, Instrumental, Ska - you name it."
and then later in small print:
"*note: submitting a trance song that is not blended with any of the aforementioned genres in order to water it down, prettymuch guarantees its rejection."

to this:

"Any piece that achives a high level and equal regard to both production and arrangement."

i lol'd. thanks guys, i needed that.

ps: maybe you guys should read the submissions standards before you go quoting siamey and making yourselves look like retards?

[The Orichalcon]

I had to be harsh since the piece was about to pass when it clearly was not fitting our standards.

Jeez, that was a kind of egoistical thing to say. If it was about to pass, that would be because the other judges did think it was fitting OCR standards. Do you have some sort of responsibility over all the other judges or something?

Sometimes the judges need to vote on several pieces in a short amount of time, due to having lives and all, the demand on the judges to come up with essays to describe why the majority of the submissions we get to the site are shit is quite high.

Now in these rather hasty judgements, sometimes the judges miss things. It's up to other judges to then wake them up with something that they'll actually take notice of, since most of the judges tend not to take notice of anything anymore. This happens to any and all of us on the panel. Sometimes I miss things and one of the other judges has to point that out to me so I can fix my vote.

So if the judges were about to YES a piece such as this one in passing (as Larry pretty much did.) Then evidently my input was good enough to catch his attention so he could appropriate his vote to the guidelines.

Also:

Siamey, is if you want the mix to be accepted onto the site, you need to give in to the trend and pop some orchestra in your mix. Then it'll be a winner for sure.

Make sure to flood it in reverb too. That seems to be a "trend" lately.

[Kanthos]

I had to be harsh since the piece was about to pass when it clearly was not fitting our standards.

Jeez, that was a kind of egoistical thing to say. If it was about to pass, that would be because the other judges did think it was fitting OCR standards. Do you have some sort of responsibility over all the other judges or something?

I thought the point of having a judging panel was so that no one person could make a biased decision to accept or reject a piece. Judges do have off-days too, and if some voted yes for a piece against OCR standards, it would only make sense for another judge who noticed that to uphold the standards.

[Liontamer]

1:18-1:24 in Siamey's mix does in fact coincide with 1:00-1:13 in "Discovery"...both start with the same two-note interval (D and Bb) and move to the same two-note interval (D and A).
Thanks for pointing that out, which is something I missed. I've changed my vote thanks to that new information, BTW, so I genuinely appreciate the info. I may be stubborn, but I wouldn't hold a NO if I saw some new information or relistened to the track and felt that I was wrong. That's too George W. Bush for my taste.

That's strange, I don't remember "majority of the track" ever being part of the site's mixing criteria...but just to give you the benefit of the doubt, Mr. Oji, let's take a look at Haroon's "CorelPrison(StringMachineMix)", shall we?

The source material doesn't come into until 1:29. It continues until 2:10, where there's a short interlude. It then picks back up at 3:08, and keeps going for most of the remainder of the track, until about 4:17. So that's a total of about 1 minute and 50 seconds of source material, out of a total 4 minute 46 second-long track. That's 38% in case you were counting, Larry. And may I also point out that there's almost nothing preventing pretty much ANY melody with a similar chord progression from being pasted onto Haroon's mix? Yet despite all this, "StringMachine" is still considered by many to be one of the hallmark tracks of the site.
Yeah, and "String Machine" is mix #587, posted over 4 years ago, back when the guidelines were more relaxed. That's not the same standard things are judged by today. Plus, a track like that was an exception to the level of arrangement most other people were doing at the time, and wasn't common.

The majority of the track (>50%) is my personal criteria, but also more of a general benchmark within the panel of what level of arrangement legitimately honors the original track through interpretation. You're gonna be hard pressed to get a track passed nowadays if less than half of it has to do with the source material.

I had to be harsh since the piece was about to pass when it clearly was not fitting our standards.

Jeez, that was a kind of egoistical thing to say. If it was about to pass, that would be because the other judges did think it was fitting OCR standards. Do you have some sort of responsibility over all the other judges or something?

I thought the point of having a judging panel was so that no one person could make a biased decision to accept or reject a piece. Judges do have off-days too, and if some voted yes for a piece against OCR standards, it would only make sense for another judge who noticed that to uphold the standards.
Kanthos is absolutely correct. Inasmuch as we work together, we DO have a responsibility over all the other judges. If we see something that from our perception is wrong/misguided/unjustified from another judge, we sure as hell will step in and talk to other judges or lay down a lengthy or harsh vote that spells out our POV and aims to bring it to the attention of the others. That's what were supposed to do, and I don't disagree with TO's methods at all. Much like Dhsu's info later on, I'm glad TO spoke up, because he had some good angles about the mix that I hadn't taken into consideration.

Anyway...my advice to you, Siamey, is if you want the mix to be accepted onto the site, you need to give in to the trend and pop some orchestra in your mix. Then it'll be a winner for sure.
Hopefully not legit advice, since it would be legitimately stupid advice. My internet sarcasm detector wasn't going off here. :-)

Guys like Darangen and SGX are right in that you shouldn't compromise your creative vision to specifically make a mix that passes OCR. Needless to say, and no matter how much I disagree with it and discourage it, people will continue to do it anyway, including both of those guys in the past. But I still say you should simply make whatever arrangement you want and simply hope that it passes standards here. The Js don't sit there trying to make criticisms to stifle creativity, only encourage it within the context of paying homage to the original material. If you think we're here to do otherwise like some gang 'o badmen, you're an idiot.

[Dhsu]

Anyway...my advice to you, Siamey, is if you want the mix to be accepted onto the site, you need to give in to the trend and pop some orchestra in your mix. Then it'll be a winner for sure.
Hopefully not legit advice, since it would be legitimately stupid advice. My internet sarcasm detector wasn't going off here. :-)
Nah, that was definitely sarcasm. You just need clean the mold off your detector. :lol:

[Siamey]

Thanks for pointing that out, which is something I missed. I've changed my vote thanks to that new information, BTW, so I genuinely appreciate the info. I may be stubborn, but I wouldn't hold a NO if I saw some new information or relistened to the track and felt that I was wrong. That's too George W. Bush for my taste.

:o ? you changed your vote? does that mean its a 3 to 3?

[Liontamer]

Thanks for pointing that out, which is something I missed. I've changed my vote thanks to that new information, BTW, so I genuinely appreciate the info. I may be stubborn, but I wouldn't hold a NO if I saw some new information or relistened to the track and felt that I was wrong. That's too George W. Bush for my taste.

:o ? you changed your vote? does that mean its a 3 to 3?
But of course. [/Grey Poupon]

[DrumUltimA]

ps: maybe you guys should read the submissions standards before you go quoting siamey and making yourselves look like retards?


fuck you im offended

[Nec5]

Not really on topic, but that is a mighty fine song you have there Siamey.

[chokst~1.bat]

God damn, this is template techno if I ever heard it.
Good job, you understand the kind of music i make, congrats! except you've made one insulting assumption. the same assumption that alot of judges make, and that assumption lies in the use of the phrase "template techno"

using that phrase instantly brands you as someone who cant comprehend techno as a genre, and also as someone who doesnt appreciate in the least, how it is produced.
I don't think TO has always been like this. I think he's changing. I remember when he used to be impressed by this kind of stuff... like General Slicer's ORC10 mix and alot of classic Sir Nuts tracks (just as an example). When I saw his opinions for PRC71 (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86378&start=143), I was completely shocked. Was this the TO I always knew? Oh well, I guess anything can get boring if you keep hearing more and more of the same type of gendre, which I'm guessing he does from being a judge. I was quite impressed by all three mixes he labeled "template techno" in that PRC71 thread, but I am not as exposed to this kind of stuff all time, so I don't find it as predictable/cliche/generic as he might at the moment. I'm more pissed off with most of the stuff I hear on the radio... I work at two stores, one has regular radio stations, and one has stuff from the 50-60s... and I actually like the oldies station better. Seems like people back then were more inventive and had more spirit, but I guess it's partially because I've been hearing the normal "new pop/rock/emo band" radio bullshit stuff for years that is all sounds the same and pointless. Stupid template radio music!!! :lol:

[The Orichalcon]

I don't think TO has always been like this. I think he's changing.

I guess you missed this:

Siamey, your mix was good. You should leave it the way it is if you're happy with it.

This NO has nothing to do with my personal preference, it has everything to do with the site guidelines and standards. I know it's pretty futile to say this again and again, but whatever.

[Navi]

More liek Dezoris Winter, rite?

[Theowne]

I guess you missed this:

Siamey, your mix was good. You should leave it the way it is if you're happy with it.

So his mix was good, but it was also template techno that could be any melody, and was just a paste job with "cookie-cutter" arrangement, of which passing would be the worst decision in the history of this site?

[Siamey]

I guess you missed this:

Siamey, your mix was good. You should leave it the way it is if you're happy with it.

So his mix was good, but it was also template techno that could be any melody, and was just a paste job with "cookie-cutter" arrangement, of which passing would be the worst decision in the history of this site?


this reminds me of that time george carlin was talking about god

" ...ten things he does
not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special
place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he
will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry
forever and ever 'til the end of time!

... but he LOVES you!"

[Souliarc]

People need to get their priorities straight.

Arguing over standards on a video game remixing site? Come on.

Judgehate +1

Personally I think you're remixing for the wrong reasons. You should do it because it's fun, it's creative, and it's an excellent way to explore you're own imagination. Making remixes for the sole purpose of getting them posted here (or anywhere, for that matter) is not only stupid, but unfulfilling.

I know from experience, I'm not just trying to talk down to you. For my first several songs I got nothing but no's from the judges. I stopped trying to get posted and just started having fun and now I have 4 or 5 songs on here.

Let me be clear on this though, having fun is not a gaurantee of being posted. I still get rejected too. The difference is it doesn't bother me anymore. The joy of remixing is awarded when I finish a song, not if/when it's posted.

QFE

[Siamey]

Darangen doesnt understand what this topic is about, its not about me being anal and whining that I dont have any reason to remix.
I love remixing, I just think that I should be previously informed that a trance remix isn't going to cut it, being that that is one of the only types of music I make at this point.

Thanks

And by the way... who are you to be telling me about priorities, you are posting on a video game remixing site, in direct reply to us arguing standards.
Hypocrit, Shows how devoted you are to the cause.

[Blake]

I absolutely love all out progressive style trance that can suck you in for 13+ minutes and have it fly by. Wouldn't mind repetitiveness and melody playfulness, as there it would be a trance mix. I actually sorta wish there WERE mixes like that on OCReMix, but if that genre wouldn't meet OCReMix's standard, they should take "Trance" out of the accepted genres.

[Legion303]

Darangen doesnt understand what this topic is about, its not about me being anal and whining

I beg to differ. Change your tampon and move on. There are worse things in life than having a song you like be rejected from OCR.

-steve

[chokst~1.bat]

I guess you missed this:

Siamey, your mix was good. You should leave it the way it is if you're happy with it.

So his mix was good, but it was also template techno that could be any melody, and was just a paste job with "cookie-cutter" arrangement, of which passing would be the worst decision in the history of this site?
Makes sense to me. I can really enjoy alot of things (eg. chiptunes, FL-noob style dance loops, OLR mixes, my own music)... yet still know that they are not OCR material for various reasons. I think TO already cleared up his reasoning for his comments with this line anyway:

I was harsh in my vote, but that's life. I had to be harsh since the piece was about to pass when it clearly was not fitting our standards. I don't have bias against techno/trance. I've YES'ed many good remixes of this genre that passed our standards.
For me, I would say this remix is good, and has some really nice things about it, but it feels like more could have been done to keep things interesting. Don't cut corners mixing just because people won't notice. You could do alot with those strings near the one minute mark as they progress to give them more of an impact, even subtle modulation or stereo enhancing, and when they just come back at 3:46 they feel too simple and uncreative, since they already did exactly the same pattern beforehand for long enough already. I loved the buildup at 2:48, and those main pulsating lead notes that steal the stage are great, but at 3:38 you could have slowly added another octave or channel creeping up and playing those notes, this would have added greatly to the emotion. The lack of anything new from 4:10 to the end left me feeling kind of disappointed. You can't just drop out and repeat the exact same patterns and call it an ending, that's really cheap. If you want to do something like that, do it with taste by offering atleast a few new things to the table for your listeners. Little things to keep each aspect your music from sounding loopy and plain as they progress can make a big difference. This, in my opinion, is what's stopping this from making it past the panel, not the fact that it's "trance" music.

[realpolitik]

just checked the judges decisions forums out

even pro trance artists get rejected (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86756)


i haven't heard the song yet but i think just due to the repetitive nature of trance and more mainstream trance trance in its pure form won't ever make ocr.

[Theowne]

just checked the judges decisions forums out

even pro trance artists get rejected (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86756)


i haven't heard the song yet but i think just due to the repetitive nature of trance and more mainstream trance trance in its pure form won't ever make ocr.

lol at this:

Whether it's FL Studio or whatever, scout out the ReMixing forum to learn how to fashion more creative sounds and effects with the software you're using.

[Liontamer]

just checked the judges decisions forums out

even pro trance artists get rejected (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86756)


i haven't heard the song yet but i think just due to the repetitive nature of trance and more mainstream trance trance in its pure form won't ever make ocr.
Wouldn't be the first time you said something stupid and made an assumption about genre bias. The Cynic Project are not pros. You've heard nothing and thereby wouldn't know anything about the song.

The arrangement itself is pretty melodic and would be what Siamey would classify as "sellout trance" not "real trance", or whatever you guys feel the need to call traditional trance. The feel isn't anything like Siamey's mix, and I hesitate to even label it trance. There was no genre bias against the track, and most of the judges felt it was promising.

lol at this:

Whether it's FL Studio or whatever, scout out the ReMixing forum to learn how to fashion more creative sounds and effects with the software you're using.
Releasing stuff for money isn't "professional". Professional is when you make a living off what you're doing. Some artists on SoundClick charge money for their music, but they're not professional musicians. Even if a legit pro submitted something, and they used some bland sounds and boring patterns that could be given more personalization and energy, they're gonna get rejected.

As far as taking trance off the list of acceptable genres, don't hold your breath, kids.

[Hy Bound]

Alrighty, ive tried to continue lurking on this subject but cant help it now that its pretty much the only thing on the Remixing forum thats getting replies.

Anywho, I like the song Siamey, its quite a bit better than i could do. I also am quite a fan of trance music in general; Armin Van Buuren's "State of Trance 2005" is one of my favorite albums.

With that being said, i have to side with the judges on this one. It IS a good song, no doubt, but there are quite a few things you can do to both fill out the sound wall of what you already have and also do some embellishments to the arrangement so it isn't ultra-formulaic.

Yes, i know trance is all about the formulaic arrangement and repetitiveness for it to give emotion, quickly and easily to people listening to it to dance. However, you can always tell the true masters of trance by the subtle nuances given to the arrangement and sounds. No, im not saying it has to be perfect, but in order for a song to keep from degrading into "just another trance track" it has to utilize some of the more subtle influences in trance.

Basically, what im trying to say is that trance is so ridiculously over-made now-a-days that a trance tune has to be quite amazing and groundbreaking to be noteworthy.

Thats my 2 cents.

[realpolitik]

Anywho, I like the song Siamey, its quite a bit better than i could do. I also am quite a fan of trance music in general; Armin Van Buuren's "State of Trance 2005" is one of my favorite albums.


post that on tranceaddict or trance.nu and see what happens

you gon git raped

haha

[DrumUltimA]

Alrighty, ive tried to continue lurking on this subject but cant help it now that its pretty much the only thing on the Remixing forum thats getting replies.

Anywho, I like the song Siamey, its quite a bit better than i could do. I also am quite a fan of trance music in general; Armin Van Buuren's "State of Trance 2005" is one of my favorite albums.

With that being said, i have to side with the judges on this one. It IS a good song, no doubt, but there are quite a few things you can do to both fill out the sound wall of what you already have and also do some embellishments to the arrangement so it isn't ultra-formulaic.

Yes, i know trance is all about the formulaic arrangement and repetitiveness for it to give emotion, quickly and easily to people listening to it to dance. However, you can always tell the true masters of trance by the subtle nuances given to the arrangement and sounds. No, im not saying it has to be perfect, but in order for a song to keep from degrading into "just another trance track" it has to utilize some of the more subtle influences in trance.

Basically, what im trying to say is that trance is so ridiculously over-made now-a-days that a trance tune has to be quite amazing and groundbreaking to be noteworthy.

Thats my 2 cents.

I like the way you think.

[MaZe]

Trance is, and always will be, a hot topic here on OCR. I just keep hoping one day a remix of mine will get accepted... :lol:

I, for instance, still need to learn alot. But i have to agree with some people here. There aren't alot of (club)trance tracks here. Hope that'll change soon. So keep submitting people!

[Hy Bound]

Anywho, I like the song Siamey, its quite a bit better than i could do. I also am quite a fan of trance music in general; Armin Van Buuren's "State of Trance 2005" is one of my favorite albums.


post that on tranceaddict or trance.nu and see what happens

you gon git raped

haha

Meh, if he isnt considered good then they can kiss my ass. He does some of the best, most well-produced trance i've ever heard. Sure, its kinda pop-like in some instances, but he beats the fuck outta Tiesto any day. :D

[ambient]

With that being said, i have to side with the judges on this one.

You mean with the 3 judges that NO'ed it, not with the 3 judges who YES'ed it? Cause last time I checked the vote was still split right down the middle.

[Hy Bound]

With that being said, i have to side with the judges on this one.

You mean with the 3 judges that NO'ed it, not with the 3 judges who YES'ed it? Cause last time I checked the vote was still split right down the middle.

I meant side with (as is what is under fire here) the general judges' opinions on trance. There are a fuck-ton of trance mixes; it seems the ones that are accepted are the ones that try and set themselves apart from the bunch. No one wants to hear the same old shit. At least, they dont want to hear the same thing someone else has done much better.

My guess as how the judges think is that in order for it to be the same old cookie cutter trance that generally pollutes the internet already, it needs to be absolutely amazing (bLiNd or SGX quality) or it should somehow differentiate itself from the pack. Saying that your mix is done like every other work of trance is just saying "my work is just like everyone else's! so vote for mediocrity!"

Though i may be belittling the effort going into trance music (as there is a lot) there really is a need for trance to grow to more than the simple format its pidgeon-holed itself in to. I think the judges are trying to enact that... i could be wrong...

Again, im not saying that Siamey's mix is bad; far from it. I just think that it couldn't hurt to try something a little more noteworthy to set itself apart.

[Souliarc]

And by the way... who are you to be telling me about priorities, you are posting on a video game remixing site, in direct reply to us arguing standards.

Because this is the only post I have ever made, and I dwelled on it for days :roll:

Hypocrit, Shows how devoted you are to the cause.

I can't be a hypocrite if I wasn't devoted in the first place. I support it, I just don't become a whine bag about something so miniscule in the overall big picture. Move on and see if actual trance communities like your music (which by the way, I did like your song, just not your work ethic).

Thank you!

[Siamey]

Please humor me for a minute and define my work ethic, Souliarc.

[Souliarc]

Please humor me for a minute and define my work ethic, Souliarc.

You're being occupied about getting your song posted on a specific site rather than just making good music. It's an ego thing, which doesn't make well with healthy progression. Your work ethic may be strong in general, but in this case, no, because your goals are backwards.

It's simple, and I hope you're giggling.

[Siamey]

:?

You're clearly arranging the events of this situation to suit some fucked up soap opera scenario in your mind.

I don't write music so it will be posted on this site, but the fact remains that when my song was rejected, I made it an issue, and made this thread.

If you wholeheartedly disagree with the points I've brought up, thats cool, you should voice yourself, but please do not presume to think that you know me at all, or that you have some deep insight into what I do and how I do it.

Theres no secret message hidden in this thread, so you can stop reading between the lines, you aren't going to find anything. You aren't going to find some magic solution, like "He's just a bitch who makes music for the sole purpose of getting it on OCR, that must be whats stifling his creative process"

I'm guessing you're one of those people who thinks they can solve anything even if no one asked them to.
You're welcome to take your quick-fix logic to another thread anytime, and take your michael moore-esque tendancy of manipulating the facts to fit your story with you.

Thanks

[Souliarc]

:?

You're clearly arranging the events of this situation to suit some fucked up soap opera scenario in your mind.

CLEARLY, bwahaha. Because i've thought about this for so long.


If you wholeheartedly disagree with the points I've brought up, thats cool, you should voice yourself, but please do not presume to think that you know me at all, or that you have some deep insight into what I do and how I do it.

am i rite?

I don't really consider it deep insight. You're obviously not worth that because you can't even take a few criticisms.

Theres no secret message hidden in this thread, so you can stop reading between the lines, you aren't going to find anything. You aren't going to find some magic solution, like "He's just a bitch who makes music for the sole purpose of getting it on OCR, that must be whats stifling his creative process"

Again, you assume i've spent so much time here :?
Though I already commented on how I don't think all you do is OCR-driven, just for this case in particular.

I'm guessing you're one of those people who thinks they can solve anything even if no one asked them to.
You're welcome to take your quick-fix logic to another thread anytime, and take your michael moore-esque tendancy of manipulating the facts to fit your story with you.

Thanks

It is a forum, people do tend to post their opinion and suggested solutions for things. I really don't see what facts I manipulated though :?:

Just get your priorities straight kid, you'll be alright.

Thanks again!

[chokst~1.bat]

Alrighty, ive tried to continue lurking on this subject but cant help it now that its pretty much the only thing on the Remixing forum thats getting replies.

Anywho, I like the song Siamey, its quite a bit better than i could do. I also am quite a fan of trance music in general; Armin Van Buuren's "State of Trance 2005" is one of my favorite albums.

With that being said, i have to side with the judges on this one. It IS a good song, no doubt, but there are quite a few things you can do to both fill out the sound wall of what you already have and also do some embellishments to the arrangement so it isn't ultra-formulaic.

Yes, i know trance is all about the formulaic arrangement and repetitiveness for it to give emotion, quickly and easily to people listening to it to dance. However, you can always tell the true masters of trance by the subtle nuances given to the arrangement and sounds. No, im not saying it has to be perfect, but in order for a song to keep from degrading into "just another trance track" it has to utilize some of the more subtle influences in trance.

Basically, what im trying to say is that trance is so ridiculously over-made now-a-days that a trance tune has to be quite amazing and groundbreaking to be noteworthy.

Thats my 2 cents.
Thanks for your posts DJ Zenith. That's kinda what I was trying to say here (http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=87454&start=74), but you managed to say it alot better. :)

[realpolitik]

Anywho, I like the song Siamey, its quite a bit better than i could do. I also am quite a fan of trance music in general; Armin Van Buuren's "State of Trance 2005" is one of my favorite albums.


post that on tranceaddict or trance.nu and see what happens

you gon git raped

haha

Meh, if he isnt considered good then they can kiss my ass. He does some of the best, most well-produced trance i've ever heard. Sure, its kinda pop-like in some instances, but he beats the fuck outta Tiesto any day. :D

lol i like most of avb

and most of tiesto

and pvd and airbase and and and and and and

my point was just that there's a hella lot of avb hate.

[Hy Bound]

Anywho, I like the song Siamey, its quite a bit better than i could do. I also am quite a fan of trance music in general; Armin Van Buuren's "State of Trance 2005" is one of my favorite albums.


post that on tranceaddict or trance.nu and see what happens

you gon git raped

haha

Meh, if he isnt considered good then they can kiss my ass. He does some of the best, most well-produced trance i've ever heard. Sure, its kinda pop-like in some instances, but he beats the fuck outta Tiesto any day. :D

lol i like most of avb

and most of tiesto

and pvd and airbase and and and and and and

my point was just that there's a hella lot of avb hate.

Y? I don't really follow trance that much, but it seems to me that he does an incredible job of keeping his songs really diverse yet still manages to fit them into the trance mold.

Thanks for your posts DJ Zenith. That's kinda what I was trying to say here, but you managed to say it alot better. :)

Thanks for the... thanks :wink: That actually is quite appreciated. :D

[Rafajafar]

OCR is snobby enough that it doesnt matter if trance is acceptable or not. Good trance songs may not pass, but really good trance songs will. There's nothing wrong with that... those judges are so hardcore over judgemental that I dont think it's an issue what genre it is. If it impresses them, then rock it.

[Siamey]

:?

You're clearly arranging the events of this situation to suit some fucked up soap opera scenario in your mind.

CLEARLY, bwahaha. Because i've thought about this for so long.


If you wholeheartedly disagree with the points I've brought up, thats cool, you should voice yourself, but please do not presume to think that you know me at all, or that you have some deep insight into what I do and how I do it.

am i rite?

I don't really consider it deep insight. You're obviously not worth that because you can't even take a few criticisms.

Theres no secret message hidden in this thread, so you can stop reading between the lines, you aren't going to find anything. You aren't going to find some magic solution, like "He's just a bitch who makes music for the sole purpose of getting it on OCR, that must be whats stifling his creative process"

Again, you assume i've spent so much time here :?
Though I already commented on how I don't think all you do is OCR-driven, just for this case in particular.

I'm guessing you're one of those people who thinks they can solve anything even if no one asked them to.
You're welcome to take your quick-fix logic to another thread anytime, and take your michael moore-esque tendancy of manipulating the facts to fit your story with you.

Thanks

It is a forum, people do tend to post their opinion and suggested solutions for things. I really don't see what facts I manipulated though :?:

Just get your priorities straight kid, you'll be alright.

Thanks again!

Quit being suck a pretentious jackhole, Souliarc.
The fact that you have no clue what you are talking about seems secondary to you; you keep talking anyways.

Thanks for your blessing, but I was already sure I'll be alright. :roll:

:? I'm probly older than you anyways, "kid".

[Liontamer]

Now we're just off-topic, and we've gotten through the jist of the thread's purpose anyway.

Trance is an acceptable genre. The tenets of trance don't necessarily run counter to the site's standards.

Not all trance will make OCR. Otherwise enjoyable songs, regardless of genre, have not made OCR. That does not run counter to the fact that trance is an acceptable genre. So it will not be removed from the "list of acceptable genres".

The list of acceptable genres are merely examples. Zydeco's not listed. We'll certainly take a zydeco arrangement that meets the creativity and production standards. Taking "trance" out of the listing wouldn't mean anything.

Would you trance artists out there like to have a trance mix passed by the big, bad judges? Create a significantly interpretive piece of music that overtly rearranges the source material. If repeating sections, those sections should be very strong on the interpretation/creativity side in the first place (i.e. how to get classic trance passed) or otherwise possess notable variations (i.e. how to get progressive trance passed). And don't neglect producing it well. These standards are what we've always been looking for, regardless of genre.