Final Fantasy 7 & Super Metroid: 'Harmony Of Destruction' (Seph/Norfair Orchestral)

[ellywu2]

I posted this a while ago, but have recently updated it.
Done in the style of Zimmer and friends.



http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=120752&songID=3993341

[John Revoredo]

What programme did you use to compose this? 8O
Where are those drums from? 8O

Now, comments on the wip
You should develop the song. This seems like a huge intro to something. I can't wait to hear that something. The lenght of the entire song can be reduced to the half and let the violence of the battle flow. That would make this kick ass

[Trash]

extremely cool mix of the themes(though i cant hear much of the sepiroth) but i agree something even more epic is needed later in the mix.Awsome work :)

[ericharris]

the music is really beautiful and the mixing is wonderful. the only problem is not a lot of people can really hear the connection between the orginal and the remix until the very end. Stunning work, but the judges are very picky on how much of you stray from the original.

[ellywu2]

I used FLstudio, EWQL Silver + Stormdrum and various soundfonts to make this.
Hm, sephiroths theme is quite subtle right until the very end, perhaps i need to bring it out more? It's present in the bell part at the beginning, and the string part during the middle is a modified version of it.

[Ronyn]

Sweet. I'm glad you finally updated this one, I really liked the first version.

I wouldn't worry about the themes so much. You definitely brought out Sephiroth more compared to the last version. What you've done is interpretative and inventive, which is a direction I'm glad to hear rather than moving the other way and making it less inventive and "rip-ish".

It seems you really want this one bass heavy, which makes sense given the themes you've combined. You might add some more upper range tracks; not to overshadow the bass, but to enhance it. I think the balance will help the overall drama in the bass. I also feel the bass is a bit dry sounding. Great orchestrally, but these themes could use a little more "ethereal nightmare" to me.

Sounds bitchin, can't wait to hear finished.

[ellywu2]

I've updated it. Now just comes polishing off!
Theres a few audio defects in this version, like crashes not finishing etc. No need to worry they'll be fixed in the next version!

[ericharris]

stunning as always, very beautiful and together, but nothing big really changed, i would recommend trying it out because you cant get much better than these GODLY sounds

[Ronyn]

Sounds good. I realize it may be too late for major suggestions, but I'll lend them to do as you like.

First, while there's no question this mix sounds great, it walks the line between exciting all the time and droning. I might take some of the gradual changes and combine them, so the piece changes sooner and to a greater degree.

Second, I like the break the ending gives, and it sounds beautiful; perhaps something like it in the middle?

These are nitpicks of course, good luck!

[kamoh]

Bring out the snare (on the treble - sounds like a war tap and it needs to come out).
Muffle and echo the xylophone - the sample isn't the best IMO.
In fact, bring out all the drum percussion a little bit and just be aware of the mallet percussion's dynamic levels and importance (should be fairly low).

Develops into Norfair incredibly late - this is odd for most OCR musics because they tend to get to their points immediately.

There's a lot of repetition of the big hits part throughout the first 4 minutes and much of it could be omitted in the name of developing the composition in a timely manner...remember you have a 6MB space limit, so unless you have a lot to say here musically (which I don't think that you do), you should keep the length down.

When you incorporate the source material, it is too heavily ripped note-for-note from the originals, IMO. This can be passed because that's how the song is, but I've always thought that the most interesting interpretations tended to change notes or rhythms very subtly to justify a remix.

Good stuff, next to no production issues.

Bring out the strings counter-melody in the Sephiroth portion near the end and make sure that we can hear what original composition you've got involved here.

[ellywu2]

Any other idea's guys? i'm thinking i'll submit this one.

[avaris]

I agree with estevao on almost all his points. So it's pointless to restate everything.

First 4 mins could be condensed. Melody could more well developed in places.

Those are more so just personal preferences. Besides that this is wicked good. High production values, friggin awesome arrangement for using two themes. Besides the 4 min thang and melody this is ready to submit for approval in my book.

[ellywu2]

Updated.
Condensed it a tad, added some more percussive elements. Toned down the mallets.

[kamoh]

Add an echo effect to the brass hit/brass line. If there was a more tapering, sforzando accent on every brass hit (plus an echo/reverb effect) things would sound a lot better on each individual phrase. It's just a little loud the way that it is now in just that single instrumentation.

The section between each Norfair phrase a the end should lose a dynamic level and be backgrounded more effectively, like the brass hits.

Ending: Don't cut off so abruptly ("you don't end a note with your tongue!!!" says my band director), don't let that violin in the foreground so much, and find a different violin sample if you can because it sounds very synthetic.

I hope this and my previous comments helped - this is a very good track with a great niche quality :)

[ellywu2]

Ending: Don't cut off so abruptly ("you don't end a note with your tongue!!!" says my band director), don't let that violin in the foreground so much, and find a different violin sample if you can because it sounds very synthetic.


The ending is an english horn + oboe..man they must be bad samples :)

[kamoh]

Ending: Don't cut off so abruptly ("you don't end a note with your tongue!!!" says my band director), don't let that violin in the foreground so much, and find a different violin sample if you can because it sounds very synthetic.


The ending is an english horn + oboe..man they must be bad samples :)

Heheh...well double-reeded instruments are meant to emulate strings in a concert band. I always thought that an english horn sounded weird.

[Ronyn]

Lol, people kept calling a cello solo in my last mix a violin. I don't think it's your samples; they're fine. Probably just need to tweak the envelopes. Can't listen right now but I'll try and post again later. gl

[ocremixfan]

I ignored this mix until now... I don't like the Sepiroth theme very much, and that's probably the reason that I simply cannot remember the original tune! :P
but anyway, a nice tense song... real boss music! ;)
It could go to my playlist, if I could download it... why not hosting it where no accounts are required to download? :P

[Ronyn]

This sounds sooooo much better. Great improvements! I like the section added at 1:04 and 2:58...etc. It really gives the listener a break and makes the builds (like 3:28) more dramatic. Maybe they aren't really new additions (my memory sucks), but they definitely stand out now.

Edit: I posted earlier that the bass hits sounded odd. Discovered someone had messed with some knobs on my mixer. They're fine, sorry bout that.

Yeah, that ending doesn't sound like a violin, lol, don't worry. I think the other guy was right though in that a live player would end the note a bit softer. Do you have the same sample with a release control? Maybe process in some extra reverb on the end for blend, or add an extra piano chord near the release?

Sounds ready to submit for me. Good luck!

[ericharris]

heard the original and liked it as is, now i have heared music of the heavens. the only way that you won't get submitted is if you broke some tiny two bit rule.

[OA]

hearing this has convinced me to buy EWQL gold. Great production and taste. The drums are great as well.

Is this a ff7/metroid medley? I didnt think you could mix games like that, but whatever, it sounds awesome.

[ellywu2]

So yeah, read the judges decision. Should i resubmit?

[Sil]

As great as this piece works atmospherically and stylistically, in the end the problem is that your methodology behind is piece is not an orchestral one, despite the use of orchestral samples. The biggest criticism I have of your arrangement is it lacks development in four critical areas: melody, harmony, rhythm, and instrumentation.

Melody:

The theme at 3:26 is short lived and acts mostly as a cameo appearance of the Sephiroth theme. You should have more or less based the piece on this motif and in order to add some variation you could change the notes, or in terms of rhythm, the duration values. Sometimes it’s great to listen to classical music to learn how to use bits and pieces of a melody to develop it. For example, the simple G F# Ab G motif can be utilized melodically in many different ways if you’re creative enough. Also, you might want to make your melody lines more prominent aside from blasting them out in the lower brass.

Instances at 0:50 and 5:14 have lines that resemble melodies, but without more complex rhythms and harmonic change, they aren’t going to stand out as much as the listener would like them to. If the rhythm is more prominent than the melody, you have a problem.

Harmony:

While many parts of this are similar to Hans Zimmer’s style, you’re missing his knack for shifting harmonies at key moments to cause either unsettling dissonances or sudden key changes (which work well in film scores to add an element of desperation.) The piece is stuck in C minor. What Zimmer does is simply shift the key up a tone to D minor, then again to E minor. Or instead shift by fourths going from C minor to F minor to Bb minor. Zimmer’s methodology is simple, but effective. Even Zimmer’s favorite kind of dissonance is a simple ascending chromatic line in the harmony.

Rhythm:

Your rhythmic style seems to be the better-planned aspect of the piece. I hear some references to the Zimmer style of syncopated rhythms, but they’re mostly short lived, hence much of your rhythmic progression ends up being boring. I guess in this case you’re going to have to think of rhythm and metre in the same way as harmony in that it can shift to cause a change in mood. In other words, a shift in rhythm can cause an unsettling moment that in a way has to resolve back to the simple march ostinato.

Like being stuck in C minor, you’re stuck in 4/4. I don’t see any reason why you can’t go into 5/4 or 3/4 and come up with some neat rhythmic cells/motifs (combined with elements of the G F# Ab G motif) that act as accompaniment to other melodic gestures.

Instrumentation:

Overall the instrumentation is not too bad, but watch out for overusing certain sounds such as percussion and brass and string staccatos. I’m not hearing enough trumpets or horns in a higher range, and strings can do awesome things with runs. I’m not saying you have to be Tchaikovsky here, but if you still want to continue with the ostinato effect, you could change things up and at least get some new sounds in there that continue the idea in their own way.

Your piece is sectioned so that one idea lasts for 4 or 8 measures, and then it shifts to a new idea. The key to effectively using varying kinds of instrumentation is to come up with new combinations from section to section. Of course, much of this is going to depend on a change of melody, harmony, rhythm, and your overall idea for the accompaniment. The section at 3:04 is quite effective because it is different from what preceded it. I think one of the biggest issues is that there aren’t enough of those kinds of moments where the listener is thinking, “Okay, something is happening/going to happen here!” Moments at 1:25 and 3:47 don’t have the same effect because of the stagnant march ostinato that is in the background.

If you ask me, the ending beginning at 5:14 is not the best way to go with this piece. While it is a contrasting style, I think a better contrast would be to continue the march but make it melodically denser, cause an unsettling rhythmic offset, change the harmony, add thicker instrumentation, and bring it to a climax. In the end I think it will have a much more fulfilling effect on the listener. Holst and Shostakovich have great examples of this in their music.

A fifth criticism I’d add to my list here is that of structure, but before you can really take advantage of that aspect of music you have to come to terms with the other four. Sometimes it’s best to stick to a simple ABA form for a short orchestral piece.

[Ronyn]

You should totally rework and submit, you almost passed. When you first released this, it was extremely repetitive, almost a one trick pony with the horn blats and bass drum. It's come a long way and is very entertaining, but perhaps the underlying concept from the beginning is inhibiting it.

I agree with sil about the structure. It's kinda evolved to an a, a1, a2 structure, I think it could use a "b", maybe even a "c"

[OA]

Damn, sweet critique there Sil.

I think half of the things you mentioned could be done and this would be passworthy, so all of them would make this amazing.

Pick and choose I suppose.

[ellywu2]

You're a lifesaver Sil. I will read over your points and use them.

[ellywu2]

Ok, after being rejected i've decided to revisit this piece.

Here are some alterations i've made to it.
Be warned at 1.49 there are some audio glitches, i'll have them ironed out in the next version.

Things i've changed:

Added more beef to the brass hits.
Added additional melodies + harmonies.
Added high end brass.
Removed some parts to make the song shorter and flow better.

Enjoy this revision so far

[Ronyn]

Kinda odd how those reverse cymbals end so suddenly, but I like the effect. I might put a touch of reverb on that track just to give an audible tail, or aftertouch.

I think it would help the build of the piece for those string ostinatos to get louder slowly as the rest of the piece does.

Dig the new music at two and a half mintues, breaks the repetitiveness more. I think the additions here are what the judges were looking for.

It would make my day and I would wet my pants if you added some more reverb to those brass tracks. Make them more epic, wagnerian, what have you. Personally, I don't think they sound natural that dry, good don't get me wrong, but odd.

Best version yet!

[ellywu2]

Hey everyone, updated again. Fiddled with the brass a tad more, changed some stuff around.
James, thanks for your continued help, and congratulations on getting 'Visions Of Kin' posted. Without yours and many others help this mix would not be in the state it is toda, i truly appreciate it.

[Flesh_Peddler]

IMO: I would beef the whole production up a notch. =/ I can definately make out the Norfair theme around 35 - 2:33, then the Sephiroth kicks again with Norfair - 2:57.

Don't get me wrong, It's decent.

I read all the posts before actually downloading.
It's very repetitive, and I think you need to flesh out Sephiroth quite a bit more.

The song name is "SephirothNorfair" remember?

[Zipp]

I have to say, I really like this piece up through the first minute and a half. Then it just gets old. I'm waiting for that climax that doesn't ever come. Good idea, but I agree with the very first comment. A huge portion of this is basically variations on the themes over the same back beat.

And what is that ending?

[Ronyn]

Hey everyone, updated again. Fiddled with the brass a tad more, changed some stuff around.
James, thanks for your continued help, and congratulations on getting 'Visions Of Kin' posted. Without yours and many others help this mix would not be in the state it is toda, i truly appreciate it.

Lucky for you I just happen to have a soundclick account and don't mind downloading it over and over. :wink:

Anyway, haven't been able to log in for a while, sorry I didn't listen again sooner. The brass does sound a little more wet, thank you! All in all it sounds like what I remember, except for the ending. To be honest, I think I liked the previous ending more, this version seems to have less contrast between the sections, like Sil mentioned, than before. Kinda feels like a film score without a film, which I know is what you intended, but it shouldn't "feel" that way to the listener. I don't have the previous version anymore so I'll have to let you figure out why that might be.

If you restore that feeling then I'd say cut, print, submit. There's only so much you can add before you're just taking away, and I think you're reaching that point.

[Theowne]

The problem that I have with this is that like someone else says, it feels like it's leading to something, but that something never seems to arrive. And when there is a bit of variation, the old motif returns quickly. I think having more variation in this track would help.

[ellywu2]

Well, i've updated this after a several month hiatus.
Enjoy!
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=120752&songID=3993341

[Random Hero]

I'm partical to orchestrated pieces and this one is pretty sweet.
The brass gives it that great evil feeling. you could maybe used a little reverb on a couple of the instruments (drums and horns). Could maybe use some dark celos or other strings to add a bit of intensity towards the end but thats just my love of strings talking, as you can clearly hear in my own songs..
Nice work
Ryan

[POCKETMAN]

I've liked this since I heard the first version way back when.
This is great. Awesome job at 1:05.
I agree with Random Hero about the strings. But it's still very nice.

[HoboKa]

You know, the other Norfair songs seem to sorta pale in comparison to this one. Just cuz they are either too fast paced or...iono..just something is missing in them. Even the 1 on the Chozo Relics Project was not my cup of tea. But this 1 is better :D