OCR01532 - Seiken Densetsu 3 'At First Innocence' [Archive]

artemisjaeger

12-10-2006, 10:38 PM

I think the tuning works wonderfully, but all of the other instruments wreak havoc on this piece. They sound like shit. The guitar work is nice and the general composition of the piece is a very pleasant listen, but I can't get over the terrible sound of the "flute" instrument and the "music box." Those really detracted from this otherwise great mix.

your the man now dog

12-10-2006, 10:45 PM

This is great. I'm digging the mix of Western melodies with more Asian themes. Almost feels like something I'd hear in a movie like Yojimbo. And the slight problems that some judges noted I feel only make the track sound more authentic to its intended theme/genre. I'm happy this got posted.

Thrull

12-11-2006, 01:03 AM

The lack of tuning gives this a really unique sound, I think it not only fits the theme of innocence better but also meshes with some of the other instruments more effectively than a perfectly tuned guitar would. I really dig the overall sound/atmosphere, this is a keeper. The only part that bugs me personally is the ending, just kinda peters out.

MojoHamster

12-11-2006, 02:07 AM

The track is full of a total air of competence that I think dispels any myth the imperfect tuning is careless.

I think even if it was I wouldn't care.

This remix sets an example to any would-be remixer that no amount of production and tuning can save a poorly composed and unchallenging remix.

The guitars remind me very much of 'The Microphones' (See : The Glow pt2).

And whichever judge it was said the time irregularity sounded awkward towards the end.

GOOD!

Formula is the death of music.

Geoffrey Taucer

12-11-2006, 02:55 AM

I was a bit worried when I saw djp mention stuff being out of tune in the writeup, but I think it works surprisingly well.

It's not polished, but it's not supposed to be. Won't be everybody's cup of tea, but I love it.

Actually, my biggest complaint is with the whistle; it really would have benefitted from a bit more reverb or delay; anything to make it sound less dry would have been good.

ILLiterate

12-11-2006, 03:48 AM

I liked it, made me think of Silent Hill mixed with Ico. Guitar sounds fine, trying out new things/doing something different should be encouraged, not shot down like it seemed to be.

Robotaki

12-11-2006, 04:34 AM

A loved the original and this songs pretty cool! Reminds me of the town theme in Diablo because of the tune of the guitar. THe off-tune business somehow works with me; might not with others, but I like it ^-^. I have to say get another tambourine sample though. It sliced right through the mellow atmosphere you created like a hot knife through butter. (Lmao, cliches, gotta love them to death.) I like different things, and this works. Congrats!

Nec5

12-11-2006, 06:43 AM

Insaintan

12-11-2006, 11:00 AM

Wait, some judges turned their nose up at this? Talk about pomp and pretense.

zircon

12-11-2006, 03:46 PM

Just because a judge votes NO, that doesn't mean he or she is "turning up their nose". That's ridiculous. For example, I voted NO. I thought it was a cool mix with some great ideas. I liked the guitar performance, the instrumentation, and especially the arrangement and the overall atmosphere. I just felt that the tuning detracted from the mix, and the pan flute/tambourine could have been tweaked a little bit, and that those things made it fall slightly below our production bar.

As far as I'm concerned, it's cool that it got posted. I don't think it was a mistake to put it up here. That's why we have a panel of multiple people, after all.

Audity

12-11-2006, 08:24 PM

Pomp and pretense? What?? There's like half the people here not liking the song, and many valid reasons given why those don't personally like it, so judges (of all people) being called that makes 0% sense at all. Ah, guess such a worthless comment is not worth getting riled up over after all, given its percent on the "makes-sense"-o-meter. Moving on.

I thought a few measures sounded good near the beginning when the melody was most prominent (I'm familiar with the original), but it sooned turned very very VERY weird sounding. I couldn't take it, and couldn't finish. I'll have to listen again later and edit this maybe; perhaps I'll get at least somewhat used to it and understand where the people who like it are coming from (and hear the rest of it). But first let me go listen to zyko's Legend of Lightning Larry mix randomly. Ah okay that's better :D

Okay I listened to the rest of it. Overall there lacks focus (except for the fact that it features an acoustic sound for the majority of it) and drags on for quite a long time. The original fits this style perfectly, but I think in order for it to be interesting at 4 minutes, more has to be done to it than chaotic sounds and repeating the original many times. It's mainly just more of an interesting song than something I'd listen to. Ending is the most interesting part.

I remember zyko's songs back on VGMix 1.0, and they were more of this kind of artistic style than anything recently he's done. Well, recently, except now, for this song, of course, comma.

zyko

12-11-2006, 08:28 PM

Haha. I've disliked every zyko mix until this one. I even gave him a low score on one or two vgmix releases(in hindsight, I think it's a genre thing for me). This mix is smooth, light, and downright purdy. Nicely done. Next time, add even more chorus. :)

that's what you said on the last half a dozen tracks, too :)

finally i know who was meta-bombing me. it was you!

================

thanks to everyone for their comments. glad you guys are feelin what i'm doin. there was quite a bit of drama leading up to the posting but i want to make one thing perfectly clear: i respect and honor the process or i would not be a part of it. if i criticize it, i am doing so to see it improve.

Insaintan - it isn't so much pomp and pretense as it is an incongruence with an unfamiliar style. i cannot expect everybody to hear a single stretch of music the same way that i hear it. this is the beauty of intepretation.

just doin my thing

MrBogus

12-12-2006, 12:16 AM

The guitar tuning issues really hit me hard the first couple of listens. Then I decided to space out a little, to do some work on the side while it ran in the background and not actively scrutinize each musical component. The song instantly became a lot better. Although the intonation still hits me at a weird angle from time to time, the reverb helps out stylistically and now I tend to interpret it as giving the song an East Asian flavor. Visual images come to mind of a crumbling civilization nestled away in the depths of a hidden forest.

Would I appreciate a remastered version with the guitars retuned? Sure. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy this piece any less than I do. Another awesome result, keep it up zyko.

PlastikBag

12-12-2006, 01:03 AM

The intunation really doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I think it sort of adds to the atmosphere. Plus, your shit has always had problems with that. Excellent work as usual.

Villainelle

12-12-2006, 08:08 AM

The detuned guitar is fine--it's the sloppy, grating pan flute that bothered me most. So many small yet constant timing issues amongst almost all elements. And the detuned instrumentation sometimes works, but sometimes just sounds...purposefully out of tune and exasperating.

It's one thing to deliberately aim for a lo-fi, off-the-cuff, detuned sound, but this mix almost seems to wander into dissonance and timing flubs obliviously. Sometimes it feels like you're in control, sometimes not. I can't tell if I'm listening to crafted awkwardness, or just error...and thinking too much about it dampens the enjoyment of the mix, which I think was meant to be visceral and raw.

There's a lot of potential in this one, I'm just surprised it wasn't tightened up before being accepted. Would love to hear a revision with at least the timing errors and transitions fixed. And please soften that poor choking flute. :S

My 2c.

DeepChild

12-12-2006, 03:09 PM

Just wanted to drop a layman's opinion into the bucket. I thought it was beautiful. Like the earlier poster mentioned the guitar reminded me of the diablo town music (which is a good thing). The whistle was a bit odd for me at first (sounds like the opening to 5 Days a Stranger), but after listening to it a few times I find I like it. Though as earlier mentioned, a bit of reverb may have been nice. Overall a fine piece of music that I will be keeping in my collection.

zyko

12-12-2006, 08:24 PM

i'm curious - what timing issues? you can't be seriously telling me that time is absolute to the point that you can tell me that the flute has bad timing

who invented years? months? days? hours? minutes? seconds? the only discernably consistent measure of time is our own heart and i doubt you know the pace of mine :)

this is why the community needs more zyko - some of y'all REALLY are in desperate need of some out-of-the-box.

Monobrow

12-12-2006, 11:06 PM

I thought this was a pretty nice arrangement. I would compare this to some earlier classic rock acoustic. People are saying that being a little off-tune, a little sloppy is so horrible? That's just not so. It's mostly a matter of taste to me. Music is emotive, it's not all about precision. I mean, look at people like Neil Young. Half of his songs sound "sloppy" as hell, yet he's heralded as one of the best guitarists/songwriters of the last century. Listen to his voice even. Or take a gander at the Grateful Dead or even Led Zeppelin somewhat, or the Band, etc. etc. etc... Point being, it's not always about being perfect in their music... Obviously there was skill involved in making this song, it didn't sound amateur to me, it wasn't perfect, but I don't think the way it was approached required it to be. Does the song have soul?

My biggest qualm about this song isn't at all anything being sloppy (well a couple of the celestia? notes did bother me), more that I think dynamic-wise, the guitar overpowers the other instruments a little too much (it's pretty much the same volume the entire time and I don't think it needed to be, some other elements feel a bit drowned out by it)... I also may have liked the guitar to have a slightly less poignant attack at times... But for the most part it was fine.

This is just my two cents, of course, I am at least happy it passed for what it is worth. Nice job zyko.

ktriton

12-13-2006, 03:14 AM

Dude, I have no idea how the panflute works, but it does. It's a beautiful and deceptively simple piece which was, frankly, unexpected from the funky Zyko we all know and love.

Congrats!

Poga

12-13-2006, 06:00 AM

I too was reminded of Diablo's music for Tristram when I first started listening to this. And just as I have a fondness for that piece, despite having never played the game, I also find this remix to be an enjoyable one, despite having never played Seiken Densetsu 3. The instrument that sounds like panpipes (or perhaps more like a Native American flute—especially during the trills and pitch-bends) does have a bit too much of a MIDI-ish quality for my tastes, but other than that I don't have any major qualms with this. The piece has a lonely, almost fading, atmosphere to it. Nice work.

apoc

12-13-2006, 06:29 AM

The thing that bothered me the most about this mix was actually the discussion on the judges panel. I wasn't bothered by the critique or disagreements but was definitely put off by how defensive people on both sides were getting. IMO, defensiveness doesn't accomplish anything except to suggest immaturity - especially when it escalates into personal attacks. Really not necessary.

That said, my opinion of the mix is that it was great! I couldn't quite tell it it had a Far East on-a-chinese mountain feel or if it were a lonely wild-western desert feel to it. Either way, the way the guitar was used seemed to add emotion which I thought was great. I didn't like the "music box", however, as it sounded too MIDI to me (especially when everything else sounded more natural). Someone also mentioned timing issues in a few places which I also didn't like. Those kinds of things would be acceptible to me if they were more consistent, but they were spread out thus causing a distraction.

Anyways, this is a great submission and I'm glad it ultimately came through - even if the process was painful. Good source track, good emotional appeal, good choice of instruments, good atmosphere; good stuff.

Harmony

12-13-2006, 03:46 PM

Wow, the balance between the guitar and the ambient elements is beautiful. From the first time that I hear them at 0:48, the vocals work wonderfully. This is especially true when the male ahh pulls the mix back from what sounded like an outro at 3:48. And how sweet is the brief guitar riff at 2:53? Flute, guitar, chromatic stuff…everything screams Seiken Densetsu and which makes it all gel for me.

While I do agree with some of the criticisms regarding the intro/outro, and perhaps the need for some selective reverb, this mix is very cool and thoroughly enjoyable Zyko. Pulling out a tune like this takes a certain type of musical courage that I think I need a little more of in my own work. I’m not referring to the courage to stand up to the inevitable criticism, or to intentionally keep a guitar “11 cents” out of tune. I mean the personal courage required to have a musical goal in mind, to craft and perform the piece and then to sit back and take it for what it is. I for one would have probably tweaked, equalized, pitch-shifted and quantized my way into a cookie-cutter masterpiece; an achievement that I don’t think should be anyone’s goal.

Nice work. Zyko ++

Karrde

12-13-2006, 05:00 PM

Any arguement against the detuning should really be out the window on this one. The tuning/key of the original was already a bit off, if I remember correctly. In any case, though, this music was most frequently used in dillapidated areas or ancient ruins and such, so I think it was the right call. That aside, this piece is nice and atmospheric, and quite clean.

Geoffrey Taucer

12-13-2006, 07:20 PM

zyko

12-13-2006, 08:37 PM

haha it isn't even the weed :)

but YES!

Fawriel

12-14-2006, 01:36 PM

hello first review yayay okay

I won't be reading all those reviews before this one, although I did catch that many don't like the song, and I can see why.
Personally, I love it.
At the first listen, I was confused and apalled, then I told myself to sit up straight and close my eyes and actually listen, and it almost brought tears to my eyes.
It seems like one of the usual RPG remix ballads with pretty sounds and pan flutes and choirs. But it isn't in my eyes. It seems desperate, not cozily sad or so. The song it remixes is called Innocent Sea. When I hear this, I imagine cold, hungry people sitting in a small boat drifting aimlessly across a dark lake. The instruments are shivering. It's as if they're played by people whose hands are too frozen to time the music perfectly. This music made by the forsaken people on the boat mixes with the music of the sea itself... and basically it's all very depressing and goosebumps-inducing.

Short version: <3

Darklink42

12-15-2006, 05:34 AM

I hear what people are talking about, but I'm not feeling the hate. I don't think it's too detrimental to the overall sound of the song. If anything, I had a problem with the short wooden flute notes. I could hear what was being attempted at times, but then I would get annoyed by it again. I felt like there should have been a little fade in the notes. That would make it blend better, and the notes wouldn't end so abruptly.
The un-tuned guitar is far enough into the background that it doesn't annoy me, unless I'm listening for it. And even then it's not too bad. Overall, I'm liking it.

Fishy

12-16-2006, 08:06 PM

Even though I'm fully aware that its out of tune, it really doesn't sound so to my ears. It really gels into the style. Really enjoyable mix, very creative style, but would we expect anything from zyko? Not at all familiar with the original so I can't really comment on arrangement.

I can see why some of the judges would have had a problem with it, (and the fact that the remixer can post in his own decision thread isn't exactly normal), but I'm glad I got to listen to it. Great stuff.

Martin Penwald

12-25-2006, 06:55 PM

When I listened to it the first time, I didn't really like it. Which is why I always give a mix several chances, and this time, it really paid off. This song sounds like something you would hear somewhere in the Andes mountains, in some long forgotten ruin of an ancient temple. Very thick atmosphere; I especially dig the flute.

The ending, however, was a bit lame; it just faded out, and it did so too fast. Though I have to admit that I have no better idea...

I dig this. I really do.

viewtyjoe

01-11-2007, 07:26 AM

Frankly, the guitar doesn't bother me, and I'm one of those people who'll cringe when things are out of tune. I swear there's reasoning between the differences in pitch between strings.

Outside of the interesting guitar line, the flute sample kills those first 5 seconds for me. If it weren't for the fact that I know some good guitar work was coming in the next 10 seconds, I'd probably have to stop the song.

NegaNova

01-17-2007, 10:47 PM

I have very little problem with this piece. The guitar sound is beautifully done, and to tell you the truth I like the minimal flute that is playn. It's not so much the minimal tune that the flute actually plays, but more the mood that it sets for the rest of the song. It's like you are actually in this secret fantasy world that the song plays for, and over-all it is a very well-done remix. It sounds like you've put quite a bit of effort into it.

Darklink42

02-14-2007, 11:50 PM

I was listening to this song again on my head phones, and I noticed somethign that I didn't before so I thought I'd send out a second post. I still stand on my old opinion that the flute detracts a little because the notes are short, but I noticed that there are also vocals in there too. And in that regard, this song has jsut shot up to one of my favorites. For some reason, the vocals underneath seem to blend in really well and I like them a lot. On top of that, it adds a very personal touch that makes the song more powerful.

Nobbynob Littlun

03-20-2007, 04:37 AM

In the tea houses of Zen Monasteries, one will find that decorations are appreciated for their imperfections. Part of it is that it gives stuff more character... that it is a more accurate reflection of life and living... there's just something about it.

This song immediately gained a special place on my playlists, for much the same reason.

However, I think there are some improvements that can be made. For example, the music box and flute seem to always be at either 0% or 100% volume. Binary. On/off. I'd say that the flute could benefit greatly from some fades in and out, and the music box - well, you can't exactly make it do anything but go "ding!", but you can make it vary in how hard it dings.

For example, at 1'03-1'05 there are three dings. Up... down up... Try putting those notes at, say, 100%, 20%, 60% volume.

A nice detail would be to have each note - Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si - with a seperate volume, so whenever it hits that note it is always muted to the same point, like a worn-out old music box.

zyko

03-21-2007, 08:12 AM

However, I think there are some improvements that can be made. For example, the music box and flute seem to always be at either 0% or 100% volume. Binary. On/off. I'd say that the flute could benefit greatly from some fades in and out, and the music box - well, you can't exactly make it do anything but go "ding!", but you can make it vary in how hard it dings.

For example, at 1'03-1'05 there are three dings. Up... down up... Try putting those notes at, say, 100%, 20%, 60% volume.

A nice detail would be to have each note - Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si - with a seperate volume, so whenever it hits that note it is always muted to the same point, like a worn-out old music box.

that is quite profound. my genuine thanks

Matt E. Waldman

08-11-2009, 09:28 PM

A few years back, I was introduced to Seiken Densetsu 3 thanks to rom translators! Now, thanks to my very small patience and my lack of skill in RPGs, I didn't get very far into it. However, there's always something that I loved about it; the artstyle and the music. My favorite track was always Innocent Sea/Water(same melody for both).

Anyways, upon listening to the game's soundtrack again, I decided to see on here if there was a mix available for this track. So I chose this one at random.

Firstly, the instrumentation is absolutely beautiful. The big guitar ensemble coupled with the voice harmonies, flutes, and drums lend very well to each other, and the result is a masterful mixture of something that is very pleasing to the ears. Not only that, but the arrangement is great as well. I love the little touches you added in to create more ambience.

The only issue I'm having is that the mixing is a little too hot. Otherwise, everything's fine.

Overall, awesome job at mixing one of my favorite pieces from Seiken Densetsu 3! Keep it up! :)

ella guro

11-18-2009, 10:28 PM

The part at around 3:45 where everything sounds like it's gonna fall apart and then sort of falls back in place is really, really cool. I feel like a lot of mixes are so tightly controlled that they give up the ability to ebb and flow like that. Moments like that make the whole mix a lot more affecting in the end.

I also can't say why the kinda cheesy and unprocessed music box and pan flute samples work, but I think they do. Putting lots of reverb or other kind processing on them might take away from the kind of ramshackle vibe created by the detuned guitar. I think Nobbynob is right that they could probably use a little volume fluctuation, though.

Great mix! I hope the controversy about this mix in the panel hasn't discouraged zyko or others from submitting more stuff like this.

12-31-2009, 03:15 AM

This feels like an not-quite-but-almost finished concept ethnic piece. The overall general feel to this is odd; I can't quite place my finger on any specific mood or atmospheric aspect. It does have a Western feel to it, the whistle is reminiscent of The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly, the wind effects feel like some open prairie, the guitars feel like casual cowboy guitar strumming. I think I like this mix because of its uniqueness and its odd casualness. I also recommend this because to find something else like it would be a rare find.

02-25-2010, 07:03 PM

The tuning issues on this completely ruin what eventually turns into a great arrangement. Sad. :-(

SwordBreaker

03-17-2010, 05:19 PM

This is such a magical remix. Ever since I heard the DoD version...it just clicked with me. I just don't see what's all the hub-bub is about with nitpicking on the "out of tune" guitar, it's not like it's the center of the song. The ethnic atmosphere that this mix provides is just so calming, even the intentionally "untuned" guitars fit so well with the emotion conveyed. I especially love the flutes and subtle vocal chants. The arrangement and instrumentation are executed so well. I'm glad zyko didn't change a damn thing about this piece and stood his ground. Can't imagine listening to it any other way. One of your best works, man. Now submit "Rime of a Wandering Seafarer" already!!

WillRock

06-21-2011, 05:25 PM

Seems to me that regarding tuning, everyone hears it differently. I know people who can't hear out of tune stuff as well as others, and people who like this don't seem to hear tuning problems that strongly compared to some people. For me personally however, the tuning is way too bad for me to enjoy this mix, intentional or not. Sorry dude :(