iPod or Zune?

[shadowbeard]

I've been a longtime visitor/listenor to OCremix, but never really posted (didn't really have anything important to say or technical skills to offer, so I just kept quiet.) Recently, I just got a new job, and really want to treat myself to getting rid of the old minidisc player with my first check. You guys know more about music than any other group I know of, so I thought you all would be the best to ask: Which would you recomend, the iPod, or the Zune?

[Razumen]

Neither, I'd get the Creative Zen: M.

Of course if you like paying a premium just for the brandname, by all means, get the Ipod.

[shadowbeard]

I've honestly never heard of that one...

[Skrypnyk]

Neither, I'd get the Creative Zen: M.

QTMFW

:) :) :)

[Israfel]

Check out iTunes first. If you like it (like I do), get an ipod, otherwise go with something else. Probably not a Zune though, that thing's been getting a lot of bad press.

[Merk]

I guess it depends on what you're looking for in a player. iPod has more formats, Zen Vision: M has more colors, Zune has Wifi. There are other differences of course, size, price, etc. You could compare the technical specifications of the iPod (http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html), Zune (http://www.dvdtozune.com/specifications.html). and what I'd go with, Zen Vision: M (http://www.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=213&subcategory=214&product=14331&nav=1).

[The Vagrance]

My suggestion:
1. Go to craigslist/eBay/newspaper
2. Find the cheapest mp3 player you can that is a brand name and that has the features you want and is in an acceptable condition for you
3. Buy it

Don't get too sucked into the different brands and such. Seeing of how you'll probably only be playing mp3's anyway, it shouldn't matter.

[shadowbeard]

In all honesty, ease of use is a must. I'm not too tech savvy. That's probably the biggest interest of the iPod, was to link up to iTunes. If the Zune or this Zen is easy to use though...

[Skrypnyk]

with my zen, I just plug it into the usb (and the little adapter thing), click on the icon > media > music (or something like that), then drag and drop everything.

adding videos were a little difficult at first because it will only play specific files. But once I found a converting program, it was all uphill from there.

[shadowbeard]

what/where is the converting program?

Zune is definately out. It's between the Zen and iPod.

[shadowbeard]

last questions, then I'm done:

With the Zen, can I put together playlists on the unit to listen to?
Also, can I import itunes format music? That's where I've gotten most of my music from.

Finally: (yes, I'm totally oblivious to how these things work) will I be able to upload podcasts and things like downloaded anime episodes to something like the zen?

[linkspast]

I dont get it Why dont you guys like the Zune? My brother has one and It seems just fine.

[SilentChasm]

Zen Vision: M has a program to convert video if it's incompatible with the player. It will automatically resize it to fit the screen and reencode it to the formats the ZVM supports. You can also use programs like AutoGK and alltoavi to convert videos to compatible formats if you want more settings.

iTunes music won't work in its original form. You would need to convert it to mp3 or something else using iTunes or another program to remove the DRM.

For podcasts there's the "ZENcast Organizer". It can handle all the video and audio podcasts and automatically transfer them to the player. If something is incompatible it converts it automatically before it transfers it.

It supports MPEG, DIVX, XVID and WMV for video.

Has a FM radio.

You also don't have to use any of the software that comes with it at all if you have WMP10 or WMP11, as it is a MTP device. You can just drag and drop files onto it in folders.

You can make playlists/slideshows on your computer and select which tracks/photos you want on them. You can also make playlists on the player itself by adding tracks to the now playing list and saving it as a playlist.

Customizable: Set backgrounds, menu appearance and menu configuration (If Music, Video, Pictures, Now Playing, etc are on the main menu and in what order they're displayed).

60GB has a USB Host Feature (plug camera into it and download photos to it without a computer for more storage space).

[OverCoat]

Anime episodes? HMM! Probably. I mean, that's what the Zen Vision is for, isn't it?

The only time I've seen anime on the go though, was when a friend of mine had Haruhi on his PSP. That was pretty freakin' cool! The Zen can probably do the same thing, but I dunno how well the screen might work for it.

[Skrypnyk]

I've seen at least all or most of the Chappelle show season 1 on my little Zen:M. It runs great. The only thing I've notice (and this could be caused because of the conversion) is that is the camera is moving very quickly, then the video will skip frames.

And some of my conversions don't have the audio sync up with the video =(

[OverCoat]

Well, video conversion is almost always messy if you're going lossy-to-lossy.

What format does the Zen use? .3gp or some other bizarre format? Or can it actually load .avi with DivX?

[SilentChasm]

I've had the problem with the audio/video sync before too. I set AutoGK to resize the video to Width:320 and audio to MP3 CBR 160 and I haven't had any problems with the sync on the files I converted since then.

It can actually load AVI with DivX and Xvid.

[shadowbeard]

sounds like the Zen is the way to go. My only final concern is the stuff I've bought over Itunes in the past. The Zune interface can't even load the purcahsed songs. For the Zen, i'd just drop them in a folder and they would be automatically recognized? Sounds easy enough for even me.

[Inimitable]

In my expierience, the Zen is the way to go if you want portable (MP3) music. It's cheaper, easily updated, just as good as the iPod, etc.


The iPod, however, has the video and micro incarnations. Since i haven't tried a Zen MP3 player except for the Mp3 music, I can't compare.

If you're looking for strictly musi, go with the Zen. If you're looking for a more expensive, perhaps more functional deice, look into the iPods or high-end Zens.

[Atomic Dog]

PSP.

Duh.

[SilentChasm]

Inimitable:
Zen also has micro ones:
http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Portable-Media-Player-Black/dp/B0007Y79G2/sr=8-1/qid=1169288149/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3453379-9665731?ie=UTF8&s=electronics
and the Zen Vision (regular, M, and W) are the video incarnations.

shadowbeard:
I was under the impression iTunes had the ability to right click on the file in it's interface and convert it to MP3. I've seen it done in other versions but I haven't really ever used iTunes. If you can, then you could then load those files on the zen. You might check iTunes and see if you can convert the files. You could convert them all to MP3 before you buy to ensure that that method works.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Get a Zune. Seriously.

You'll be the third person who ever bought one.

[Bahamut]

PSP.

Duh.

Well, it sucks with no playlist support and all that, but it probably has the most functionality of any device for its price.

[Black Mage]

Zune = evil, DRM infested, POS!

[al3xand3r]

Between Zune and iPod: the Zune.
Between Zune and Creative: Creative.

The above recommendations are for hard-drive based players.

If all you need is a flash-based player with 1-2 gigs, get a Sansa. Nice little players from that company.

[EdgeCrusher]

How someone would even consider a zune over a ipod is amazing. The Wifi only allows what, 3 listens of the song? Plus DRM.

I'm very happy with my 80 gig Ipod though. Now I just need to find an easy way to use it with my car stereo, since I don't have a tape deck.

[atmuh]

I have a 30gb ipod and it's awesome. I am getting a 30gb zune for free from work and I'm still not sure what the heck I will do with it.

[Magewout]

I have a 30gb ipod and it's awesome. I am getting a 30gb zune for free from work and I'm still not sure what the heck I will do with it.

Resell it on eBay, and buy a 60Gb Zen :p

[Blake]

Resell it on eBay, and buy a 60Gb Zen :p

Really? I've heard a lot of crappy reviews of Zen, backed up by my friend's Zen right out of the box single-handedly destroying his comp.

[The Damned]

I have a 30gb ipod and it's awesome. I am getting a 30gb zune for free from work and I'm still not sure what the heck I will do with it.
Give it to shadowbeard. He's in the market, I hear.

[EvilZereno]

How ironic that this page comes up... My year and a half old Zen just died yesterday in the car...for good. All i did was shut it off and when i came back out to the car it wouldnt start up. I tried resetting it but it is stuck on the intro screen. So... im gonna go buy an ipod. The touch-pad on the Zen (in my opinion) SUCKED MAJORLY but...maybe the new version of Zen is better.

[Bahamut]

Resell it on eBay, and buy a 60Gb Zen :p

Or sell it on ebay and then buy an XBox 360 or PSP

[sgx]

sounds like the Zen is the way to go. My only final concern is the stuff I've bought over Itunes in the past. The Zune interface can't even load the purcahsed songs. For the Zen, i'd just drop them in a folder and they would be automatically recognized? Sounds easy enough for even me.

No...you won't be able to run any iTunes purchased music on either the Zune or the Zen. iTunes can convert formats, but it will not convert from anything DRM'ed. You'll have to look for some sort of illegal DRM stripper software to get your iTunes purchased music on any non-Apple player. This is why the iTunes store is extremely lame. Most of the other music service work with a bunch of different (non-apple) players. Though I think the URGE service that works with zune only works with zune..not sure.

I bought an ipod recently...I would rather have had something else like a Zune or Zen, but my car's stereo has a data jack for iPods that lets you play your ipod in the car and browse your library from the stereo display. That was too good to pass up.

[Power Surge]

b = bit
B = byte = 8 bits
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE

I have a 30GB iPod (more like 27.82 GB) and I'm quite content with it, especially since I didn't pay even a penny for it. I got lucky and found it in a taxi.

However, if I didn't have one and wanted to get an mp3 player, I'd probably go with the Zen. Then again, all the music I have takes up less than 1 GB, and I don't watch videos on the go, so a flash-based player would be good enough for me.

Also, this is my first post since the death of UnMod. :[

[Mouser X]

I got a Toshiba Gigabeat F, and I'm running Rockbox (http://www.rockbox.org/) on it (it doesn't run on the Gigabeat S at all, yet. But, check it out. It does run on a good selection of portable players). It's great. It plays almost any format of music I want (including NSF and SPC, with patches [you'd need to compile these yourself]). I can even play Gameboy, and Gameboy Color games on it. Someone even ported Doom to Rockbox, so there's that as well.

Honestly though, the extras (GB/C, Doom, what have you) aren't what intersts me. Its the functionality, and expandability of Rockbox that got me. It can play just about anything I want. Really, it comes down to this. Rockbox allows me to use my player the way I want to use it.

The nice thing about the Gigabeat is that it's a really powerful system, for being a portable player. I don't know anything about the Creative line of players, so I don't have much to say about them. However, the Gigabeat is great. I'd suggest that, if you want to run Rockbox, that you at least look into it. Good luck on your decision though. Mouser X out.

[The Damned]

One of the things I don't like about the Gigabeat line is the secret DRMing it does to your files. This was something that caused me to never buy one.

It's not very well known, but if you look it up, you should be able to find a few forums where they discuss it.

[Antipode]

I have a 30GB iPod and I've never regretted the purchase.

The wheel allows for fast and easy navigation and the connection/organization services with iTunes are great. I wish it had been a bit cheaper of course, but nothing can be helped there. If I had as much money as I wanted I would still get the iPod over the Zen and Zune. I didn't get it for the brand name, I got it for the functionality, and it hasn't let me down.

[Mouser X]

One of the things I don't like about the Gigabeat line is the secret DRMing it does to your files. This was something that caused me to never buy one.

It's not very well known, but if you look it up, you should be able to find a few forums where they discuss it.
I'm well aware of the SAT format that they create when you transfer files to it. Guess what? I've never used the software, or firmware, that comes with the unit. As soon as I got it, I installed Rockbox, and never bothered with anything else. It works great, so I have no need that I can think of for ever using the original software or firmware.

You're right though. Their SAT stuff does suck. However, you can "remove" their DRM stuff using a simple workaround. Connect the Gigabeat in WMP10 mode (or, whatever it is), and when browsing the unit, they're show up as MP3s. When you transfer them back to your PC, it transfers at USB 1.1 speeds, but you can get your files back that way. However, I think it's transcoding them back to MP3. At least, from what I've heard anyway, this works. As I said, I never gave my unit the chance to create SAT files, so I have no reason to attempt to transfer SATs back to MP3s. If you have a Gigabeat F, I can't think of any reason not to use Rockbox. Some people have even gotten 20 hours of runtime on one charge using Rockbox (though, that's definitely not the norm. 15-17 hours is).

Basically, in regards to Rockbox, I strongly recommend the Gigabeat as the way to go. Sure, Rockbox will run on iPods and iRivers, but the Gigabeat has them beat in CPU power. The potential for the unit is pretty nice. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that SAT encryption is an unimportant concern for Gigabeat users that run Rockbox. Mouser X out.

[shadowbeard]

I <3 you guys. Thanks for all the opinons. I got my player now, and I'm happy.

PS: Figures, I just get my player, and there's the last episode of the podcast T_T

[Antipode]

Maybe I missed it, but what player did you wind up with?

[Bahamut]

I have a 30GB iPod and I've never regretted the purchase.

The wheel allows for fast and easy navigation and the connection/organization services with iTunes are great. I wish it had been a bit cheaper of course, but nothing can be helped there. If I had as much money as I wanted I would still get the iPod over the Zen and Zune. I didn't get it for the brand name, I got it for the functionality, and it hasn't let me down.
iTunes organization services and great in the same sentence? Their organization sucks major ass :( .

[EdgeCrusher]

I have yet to have any problems with itunes.

[The Damned]

iTunes organization services and great in the same sentence? Their organization sucks major ass :( .
QFE. Fucking iTunes... it's for lazy/ignorant people that don't care about how their files are handled.

Hate iTunes...

[Old Man Time]

b = bit
B = byte = 8 bits
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE

I have a 30GB iPod (more like 27.82 GB) and I'm quite content with it, especially since I didn't pay even a penny for it. I got lucky and found it in a taxi.

All devices with hard drives list the capacity as greater than it really is. My creative labs jukebox did that too - its not just apple. What they do is count 1000 bytes as a kilobyte, instead of 1024 (2^10). Its devious, but everyone does it.

[Gatecrasher]

QFE. Fucking iTunes... it's for lazy/ignorant people that don't care about how their files are handled.

Hate iTunes...
There aren't that many alternatives to iTunes for some iPod users. For example, ephpod stopped their support after v2.77 making it useless for new generation iPods. That being said, if you have to use a mediocre piece of software to get your device to work the way you want it, so be it. Not to sound cliché or anything: don't hate on the player hate the game.

[Black Mage]

QFE. Fucking iTunes... it's for lazy/ignorant people that don't care about how their files are handled.

Hate iTunes...

I actually switched to iTunes because I liked the interface. For a long time I used WinAmp (and still do for various purposes), but as my mp3 collection grew, it became harder and harder to manage them and find what songs I wanted. At first is was easy enough to simply click the file and play, but then I had so many files that became annoying. Then I tried the media library, which was an improvement, but it still didn't work well. iTunes on the other hand, was just what I was looking for. Besides, the fact that I have an iPod also made it easier than using and managing two different libraries.

It just works.

[Antipode]

I should clarify. I didn't mean that I liked the way iTunes automatically organized your music - I meant that I liked the ease of use it has in allowing you to organize your own music. I spent many hours manually doing it all myself and while it may have been easier to let iTunes do it I know I wouldn't have been satisfied with how it did it - I've seen how it works on other people's libraries.

[The Damned]

What I don't like about it it the fact that when I installed it, it then proceeded to move all my files around, placed them in different directories, and move any files that for some reason didn't meet its restrictions into another folder. It wasn't like it was all done under another folder. No, it sent these folders all over the hard drive. I was digging them out of the Windows directory, game directories, system folders, everywhere. It went completely fucking nuts.

I spent two days manually reorganizing every file back to its proper folder and sub-folder. Tens of thousands of songs, haphazardly thrown around because the program didn't like the way the ID3 tags were done.

Basically, I had the worst experience with iTunes. And combined with the massive problems the iPod had, and the complete and total failure that was Apple customer support... I will never buy an iPod ever again. I don't care if they hand out free blowjobs for a year with one. It won't change my mind.

[shadowbeard]

I ended up going with the iPod. The Zen was really tempting, but I liked the way the software for Zune and ipod organized my library for me (I don't even remeber where half the stuff on my hard drive is anymore I'm so unorganized). However, the Zune was quickly outed because I couldn't play all the media formats I could with the iPod, and because the Zune store is run off microsoft points, the same retarded system xbox 360 uses.
Most people probably already know why MS points suck, but in case you don't: Basically, you can only buy points in $5 increments, for 400 points. 400 for $5, 800 for $10, and so on. They usually price albums at right above a 400 mark (a new CD is, for example, 1280), so you have to buy the next increment up to get what you want. Spending $20 on points to get a $15.30 item is annoying.

[Antipode]

What I don't like about it it the fact that when I installed it, it then proceeded to move all my files around, placed them in different directories, and move any files that for some reason didn't meet its restrictions into another folder.

You do realize that when you're installing iTunes you are given the option to "have itunes organize your music for you", and that you can uncheck this while you're installing. I always just uncheck that box and I've never had a problem. But if it put them in the windows directory or game directories, I can't explain that - weird stuff... I'd be just as angry, likely.

[Smoke]

What I don't like about it it the fact that when I installed it, it then proceeded to move all my files around, placed them in different directories, and move any files that for some reason didn't meet its restrictions into another folder. It wasn't like it was all done under another folder. No, it sent these folders all over the hard drive. I was digging them out of the Windows directory, game directories, system folders, everywhere. It went completely fucking nuts.

I spent two days manually reorganizing every file back to its proper folder and sub-folder. Tens of thousands of songs, haphazardly thrown around because the program didn't like the way the ID3 tags were done.

Basically, I had the worst experience with iTunes. And combined with the massive problems the iPod had, and the complete and total failure that was Apple customer support... I will never buy an iPod ever again. I don't care if they hand out free blowjobs for a year with one. It won't change my mind.

That's a setting in iTunes itself that does this, and it's supposed to organize your files based on their tags(Artist, album) in the folder you set as your music directory for iTunes(Which is also where the downloaded tracks are stored, and defaults to My Documents\My Music\iTunes\iTunes Music.

The only way that you would encounter your issue would be if you changed that folder to your C drive, and turned on the automatic organization stuff(Copy files to iTunes Music Folder, a setting on the same section that holds the folder location settings), combined with some pretty bad tagging.

I disabled this option the moment I started iTunes for the first time, added the tracks I wanted and fixed tags where needed(Fairly rare cases), then used it. All my tracks stay in their original folder.

The only flaw in iTunes I found was that it doesn't like files being moved to different folders, and won't help much when trying to find the track again.

[CE]

That's a setting in iTunes itself that does this, and it's supposed to organize your files based on their tags(Artist, album) in the folder you set as your music directory for iTunes(Which is also where the downloaded tracks are stored, and defaults to My Documents\My Music\iTunes\iTunes Music.

The only way that you would encounter your issue would be if you changed that folder to your C drive, and turned on the automatic organization stuff(Copy files to iTunes Music Folder, a setting on the same section that holds the folder location settings), combined with some pretty bad tagging.

I disabled this option the moment I started iTunes for the first time, added the tracks I wanted and fixed tags where needed(Fairly rare cases), then used it. All my tracks stay in their original folder.

The only flaw in iTunes I found was that it doesn't like files being moved to different folders, and won't help much when trying to find the track again.

Yeah I noticed and did the same think. I kinda like the interface too. I'm happy with iTunes.

[defender!!]

i'm with Antipode; i've tried iTunes and hate it. i spent days (weeks, maybe) reorganizing my .mp3 collection with MusicBrainz and tag software and the like.

it just seems like iTunes is more for people who don't care about that stuff, which is fine. i use Winamp and custom keyboard controls, like hitting the number pad buttons that i never use to open up the library, open a URL, etc.

the thing that really turned me off about iTunes is that whenever i used it, if i tried to sort it by album or search or do ANYTHING, even with a small library, there was about a second of lag. maybe i was just working with a few bad computers but i hated it.

on the flipside, has anyone ever tried Foobar? i couldn't get into it. i know it's so customizeable, but i just got annoyed how it would go track 1, track 10, track 11 and THEN track 2, or how various artists had their own section instead of going into the album i wanted them to.

[The Damned]

Yes, Antipode and Smoke, I know about that feature. The problem was that it did it on its own. I wasn't touching the mouse or keyboard at all when it did it. The version or install or something obviously didn't go right, otherwise I wouldn't have had the massive problems with it that I did.

Any way, there are other players out there with better prices, features, battery life and support. But the iPod is the perfect example of how marketing and glossy plastic override its glaring faults and limitations.

Good for Apple. Bad for those of us that want and need more.

[EdgeCrusher]

I unchecked the itunes auto organization and haven't had a problem with it. Point of all of this is, I use to be the biggest anti apple/ipod person in the world on here, if anyone ever saw any of my posts on the subjects. But I can honestly say now that I like my ipod and use itunes easily.

Speaking on the subject though, anyone know a good mass retagger? I have a folder full of VGM that I want to add to itunes but has not be tagged at all. All of it is done just with file naming.

[Razumen]

All devices with hard drives list the capacity as greater than it really is. My creative labs jukebox did that too - its not just apple. What they do is count 1000 bytes as a kilobyte, instead of 1024 (2^10). Its devious, but everyone does it.

Really? You do know that that you never do get the full capacity of a drive when it's formatted, right?

[Red Shadow]

There aren't that many alternatives to iTunes for some iPod users. For example, ephpod stopped their support after v2.77 making it useless for new generation iPods. That being said, if you have to use a mediocre piece of software to get your device to work the way you want it, so be it. Not to sound cliché or anything: don't hate on the player hate the game.
cue yamipod (http://www.yamipod.com/main/modules/home/) to the rescue

its what i use on the ipod i stole from amazon and it works just swimmingly

[atmuh]

I have yet to have any problems with itunes.

I have been using it for a few years now and I agree wholly with this statement.

[Old Man Time]

Really? You do know that that you never do get the full capacity of a drive when it's formatted, right?

Yeah, I forgot about that, that accounts for some of the space you lose, though it isn't always all of it.

[weggy]

Ive gone through 2 ipods - a 4G I got from freeipods.com back in its heyday, and a 30GB Video for a birthday present.

I like my ipod for 3 reasons: First, iTunes is a pretty solid program. Only downsides being its a resource hog (and you can, as others said, change wether or not you want it to organize stuff). Second, it overwhelmingly has the support of 3rd party applications/accessories. Finally, in the same venue as 2, I can put Linux on it and play Doom. (w00t!)

The Zune sucks. $20 from every Zune goes to Universal Music and some sort of piracy repirations. Plus their software is pretty bad, and is still buggy. The screen is nice though.

The Zen I havent had much experience with. I dont see it as being bad, it just has less 3rd party apps/accessories... so I lean towards the ipod.

[TimberWolf]

Ive gone through 2 ipods - a 4G I got from freeipods.com back in its heyday, and a 30GB Video for a birthday present.

I like my ipod for 3 reasons: First, iTunes is a pretty solid program. Only downsides being its a resource hog (and you can, as others said, change wether or not you want it to organize stuff). Second, it overwhelmingly has the support of 3rd party applications/accessories. Finally, in the same venue as 2, I can put Linux on it and play Doom. (w00t!)

The Zune sucks. $20 from every Zune goes to Universal Music and some sort of piracy repirations. Plus their software is pretty bad, and is still buggy. The screen is nice though.

The Zen I havent had much experience with. I dont see it as being bad, it just has less 3rd party apps/accessories... so I lean towards the ipod.

Haven't tried the linux thing... If i could play games on my ipod that were actually worth playing, i'd basically never stop!

[DrEw.]

I got a 4gig nano for xmas and It really works great. Itunes, on the other hand, is a big pain in the ass. I would never use it in a million years unless I had to.

I had a 128 meg MP3 player made by Intel for about 7 years. It still works great. I don't even know if they still make them, but thier products are usually well made.

[linkspast]

wow 7 years old... Thats pretty cool.

[Smoke]

Really? You do know that that you never do get the full capacity of a drive when it's formatted, right?

The whole 1000/1024 bytes in a kilobyte thing has been going on for years, and it's rather annoying. And the larger a drive gets, the bigger the discrepancy becomes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabyte#Consumer_confusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix#Legal_disputes

More on it there.

[Czar Diego]

Also, remember that the player's firmware takes up space too. That accounts for a litle of it.

I have the 60 gig Zen Vision M. It is teh sexx. The picture/video quality of the screen is amazing for a 2.5 inch, and it handled all my video files just fine, and converted the ones that it didn't. It was also only a little more than the 30 gig, from where I got it. (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4131140)

It also has a decent amount of accesories. I <3 it.

[SilentChasm]

If you didn't notice from my posts on the Zen Vision M, I have one and it's working perfectly. I used to use a Zen Xtra, and a Nomad IIc before that.
I organize everything myself and have over 15GB of music alone. I used to use the software that came with it (Creative MediaSource) but when I reformatted to Win2k (more stable, secure, generally faster) it didn't work with the updated firmware on the player so I switched to Media Monkey and haven't looked back.

Media Monkey works with iPods, Zens and other MP3 players and makes tagging and organizing a breeze. Playlist transfer works better than MediaSource and it keeps the track order. Album art can easily be embedded in the tags so it always will display on an iPod or anything else that supports it.

Also supports winamp plugins for stuff like chipamp so you can easily convert music.

EdgeCrusher:
MediaMonkey has an "Auto-tag from filename" feature that makes it really useful for stuff like that.
You can just use stuff like strings like
<Album>\<Track#> - <Artist> - <Title>
or
<Year>\<Genre>\<Artist> - <Album>\<Title>
and many other ways of doing it including conditional statements in order to tag files and it will automatically change the tags for you.
So if you had VGM music (ex. "Chrono Cross - 102 The Brink of Death.mp3" you could set it to
\<Album> - <Track#> <Title>
and it would tag it for you.

There are also other ID3 tagging programs to automatically do it for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ID3#Editing_ID3_tags

[Razumen]

I used to have a Creative Zen, don't remember the model but it was a earlier one with 30GB and a nice 24hr lifespan before recharge, unfortunately the touchpad frequently stopped responding so I ended up returning it.

How does the touchpad on the Zen Vision M hold up so far?

[Bren]

Why is it that everything made by Microsoft has to be "evil" and shunned? I have only heard good things about the Zune from people I asked about it. The reason behind it is in fact a counter from Bill Gates that Mac had terrible customer support for people buying Ipods. At least that's my understanding from what I've read and heard.

On that note, I would certainly trust a Zen, because a Nomad was my first MP3 player, and it worked great for a few years. Not saying it broke...it still works, I just haven't had a need for portable music much anymore.

[megadave]

Neither. There are other MP3 players in the world, which are available for cheaper prices. But if you're limiting yourselves to those two, go for the ipod. Don't make me count the reasons.

[Katsurugi]

Why is it that everything made by Microsoft has to be "evil" and shunned? I have only heard good things about the Zune from people I asked about it. The reason behind it is in fact a counter from Bill Gates that Mac had terrible customer support for people buying Ipods. At least that's my understanding from what I've read and heard.

On that note, I would certainly trust a Zen, because a Nomad was my first MP3 player, and it worked great for a few years. Not saying it broke...it still works, I just haven't had a need for portable music much anymore.

Microsoft isn't evil. But certainly a lot of people seem to think so. Personally, I distrust a lot of first gen. hardware. I read up about the iPod before it was released, however, I knew there were some issues that might arise. Lo and behold, battery life was teh suck. I think that the same goes for the Zune as well. It does have a lot of features such as wireless file sharing that does seem quite cool. This would be a definite plus for musicians at conventions or wherever they may be. I'm just going to wait until a lot of the kinks get worked out before I consider getting one.

In general, I think that user software interface is the biggest question though. If you've ever used Sony's software for MD players, you will know that it's absolutely horrible. The hardware was amazing though! But I for something like audio files, which I am more than likely to swap around, delete and add, the interface has to be friendly and simple. Compared to Sony's SoundStage, I think iTunes is a big step up, but I know that a lot of other people (including my sister) find it annoying and even a bit cumbersome. But I'd probably like something where there was no interface at all, and you'd just load up songs as if it were a portable hard drive. This is what older mp3 players actually did, but it's a dying approach due to piracy and all that jazz.

As of right now, the Zen Vision M is pretty sweet and it's probably my first choice if I had to pick one now.

(Isn't the Nomad made by Creative? Your argument would make more sense if it were made by Microsoft.)

[JJT]

The Office Season 3 Pass + iPod = shortest flights of my life.

If you're looking for a raw mp3 player, then the 'pod probably isn't worth the money.

[SilentChasm]

I used to have a Creative Zen, don't remember the model but it was a earlier one with 30GB and a nice 24hr lifespan before recharge, unfortunately the touchpad frequently stopped responding so I ended up returning it.

How does the touchpad on the Zen Vision M hold up so far?
Haven't had any problems with the touchpad. It can be a little sensitive at times but you can reset the sensitivity. I never was a fan of touch pads on MP3 players but I can see why people like them (more precise control of scrolling speed).

But I'd probably like something where there was no interface at all, and you'd just load up songs as if it were a portable hard drive.
MTP players allow the folders on the player itself to be accessed and music drug to. You can open it up like an Explorer window and copy the files over just like that. MTP is what's in PlaysForSure devices such as the Zen Vision M.

The Player usually has two directorys.
\Media Library\
\Data\
Inside Media Library there is a folder for each content type
Music, My Playlists, My Recordings, My Slideshows, Pictures, Video, TV(the folder that XP MCE transfers recorded shows to) and ZENcast(Creative's audio/video podcast program)
You don't have to use any kind of program: if you have WMP10 or WMP11, you can just drag and drop.
It doesn't matter where you put the files(as long as they're in the correct type folder), as they usually get the track info from the ID3 tags.

[Bren]

(Isn't the Nomad made by Creative? Your argument would make more sense if it were made by Microsoft.)

Yes. Like you mentioned, the Zune is a first release, so I'm not entirely sure I'd want to go out and buy one not knowing exactly how reliable it is...I'm simply stating I think it has good potential, and that I have heard very few negative comments about it so far...

I'm just saying that in addition, I would definitely trust a Zen, since I've owned a creative mp3 player which worked perfectly as long as Ive had it (as far as I know, it still works)