Basic Theory

[Synth]

I'm learning my theory and I'd like to know if I'm getting this down.

First off, I'm sticking within the key of G just until I understand everthing.

Ok. So G is split into G major(same as E Minor) and G Minor. Correct?

The notes that can be used in G major, also know as the G Major scale are G,A,B,C,D,E,F# Correct? And in key of G Minor, the G minor scale notes are G,A,B,C,D,D#,F#. The only diffrence is the E is changed down half a step to D# Right?

[PriZm]

major scale is correct

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale

[Hemophiliac]

no that's incorrect, the key of G minor is G A Bb C D Eb F...this is the natural minor or aeolian mode if you will.

the one you're thinking of G A Bb C D Eb and F# is G harmonic minor...with a raised 7th scale degree. (also note there is no D# it is an Eb, because there has to be one of every note in a scale).

the difference between G major and G minor would be a lowered third (B to Bb), lowered sixth (E to Eb) and lowered seventh (F# to F).

also i have no idea what you mean when you say "split"

[suzumebachi]

What scale would G A Bb C D E F be?

[Hemophiliac]

F dorian or, G minor with a raised sixth

[Synth]

In my guitar lessons we went over major and minor bar chords. And the only diffrence from a major is one of the notes is droped half a step right? So I thought the minor scale was based off the minor chord.

[Hemophiliac]

i have no idea what bar chords are because i'm not a guitarist, but i think it's probably safe to assume that the lowered note was the 3rd of the chord...ex: G major G B D, G minor G Bb D

the major and minor scales are not based on chords, but rather an arrangement of whole and half steps.

[mauve]

In my guitar lessons we went over major and minor bar chords. And the only diffrence from a major is one of the notes is droped half a step right? So I thought the minor scale was based off the minor chord.
A basic chord is only three notes in the scale. Barre it, figure out what note you're playing on each string, it's the same three. The only note that gets changed that's in the chord is the third of the scale.

[Synth]

i have no idea what bar chords are because i'm not a guitarist, but i think it's probably safe to assume that the lowered note was the 3rd of the chord...ex: G major G B D, G minor G Bb D

the major and minor scales are not based on chords, but rather an arrangement of whole and half steps.

Ok. I understand that now.

Next set of questions is about modes.. Still working in the key of G major.

Ok. So 7 modes. In order they are Ionian, Dorian, Pheygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian, Locnian. 7 modes, 7 notes, 7 chords. To get the chords I skip one note after the first note. So if my first note is G, I skip a note, then its E, skip the next to get to D. Which makes up the G major Chord correct? I understand all of that part, but just to clarify.... G Major chord is Ionian, Am dorian, Bm phygian etc.

But what I dont get is this. Lets say i'm playing this progression Am(dorian), D(mixoldyian), G(Ionian) and Em(Aolian). And over that i'm playing the G major scale.......This is where i'm completey stumpted.

SO lets say im playing the lead in g major scale and the rythem hits the D chord...does that mean i'm in Mixolydian? Or does the Mixolydian mode have its own scale...or what...I'm still note quite sure what a mode is..

[Hemophiliac]

ok first of all the notes in a triad are a 3rd apart. so g major is G B D.

modes are simply keys that have a different starting note, i'll use your G major since you're so comfortable with it...

G A B C D E F# = Ionian
A B C D E F# G = Dorian (starts on the 2nd scale degree)
B C D E F# G A = Phrygian (starts on the 3rd scale degree)
etc. etc.

if you're playing as you said you would not be in a different mode, you'd still be wherever you were before, G. Yes mixolydian has it's own scale however i would not say you were using mixolydian unless that D chord was a D13. the progression you wrote up there is perfectly tonal: Am(ii), D(V), G(I) and Em(vi)...a very common progression, does not make it modal unless something else unique was happening. something like a bass ostinato or pedal, emphasizing a particular tonal center.

[Synth]

ok first of all the notes in a triad are a 3rd apart. so g major is G B D.

modes are simply keys that have a different starting note, i'll use your G major since you're so comfortable with it...

G A B C D E F# = Ionian
A B C D E F# G = Dorian (starts on the 2nd scale degree)
B C D E F# G A = Phrygian (starts on the 3rd scale degree)
etc. etc.

if you're playing as you said you would not be in a different mode, you'd still be wherever you were before, G. Yes mixolydian has it's own scale however i would not say you were using mixolydian unless that D chord was a D13. the progression you wrote up there is perfectly tonal: Am(ii), D(V), G(I) and Em(vi)...a very common progression, does not make it modal unless something else unique was happening. something like a bass ostinato or pedal, emphasizing a particular tonal center.
Ahh ok. Thanks for all the help so far. But, wouldnt it sound the same as the nomral G major scale since its the same notes? I dont really see the point of modes.

[Hemophiliac]

well it wouldn't really sound like G major, it'd be G whatever...since your starting note is different. you'd really have to hear some modal music to really see. there usually isn't anything in modal music to usually say "OMG we're in ___ Key", if you know what i mean. for example: non-functional dominant chords.

[prophetik]

theory is good. i'm a music educator, and i like theory, so if you've got any specific questions feel free to pm me. mainly, though, i'm posting this so that i've got the subscription.

[Kanthos]

Modal music is often somewhat hard to distinguish from music in a different key. For example, comparing A dorian to G ionian, the notes are the same, so the only way you can tell whether you're in A dorian or not (keep in mind that nearly all western music is built around ionian or aeolian modes; other modes are fairly rare) is that A dorian will center around A (A will be a prominent note, phrases will end on A and possibly start there, a large number of A's will have to be used, etc.) while G ionian will center around G. The need to emphasize the root note is much higher if you're not in ionian or aeolian modes, as those two modes are the most common.

[prophetik]

a good example of most modes is in church music, but a lot of world music is based on modes as well. you basically listen for the 'feel' of the piece - if it's centered in A, has a raised 3 and 6 and a lowered 7, that's A dorian. key's in G, but not the piece.

like they've said, the best example is the minor keys, but there's some other good examples in indian music with mixolydian modes, and phrygian modes in arabic stuff.

[Chavous]

Prophet, I think you may be a little off.

A dorian - A B C D E F# G A
Thats a lowered 3rd and lowered 7th, not what you said it was.

Also - alot of arabic music uses the Aeolian mode in Harmonic minor form. I'm not so sure about the phyrigian observation. As for indian music, I don't know, I've never listened to it.

[prophetik]

whoops, you're right. lowered third and seven, raised six. my bad.

[Kanthos]

Synth, may I ask why you're concerning yourself with modal music to begin with? Obviously, to be a more complete guitarist and have a complete understanding of theory, knowing modes is important, but at this point, where you're still working on understanding major and minor scales, it might be easier to stick to those and not worry about other modes.

[Chavous]

No, it's not a raised 6th either...

Break it down, if you were talking about an A major scale, you would have this:

A B C# D E F# G# A

Adding the dorian onto it (now it's "A dorian") lowers the 3rd and 7th:

A B C D E F# G A

So it isn't a raised sixth.

[Kanthos]

Raised 6th as opposed to a scale with no accidentals (technically A aeolian).

[Synth]

Synth, may I ask why you're concerning yourself with modal music to begin with? Obviously, to be a more complete guitarist and have a complete understanding of theory, knowing modes is important, but at this point, where you're still working on understanding major and minor scales, it might be easier to stick to those and not worry about other modes.
Just what my teacher has been teaching me. He did say that I probably wont understand modes since its a little advanced.

[prophetik]

they're not advanced, just the concept of them is.

still, i say, you want to learn modes, you've got to listen to chant.

[Synth]

Also. Do you guys know of a good site that teaches how to read sheet music? I've googled quite a bit, but they all seam crappy.

[prophetik]

this (http://www.musictheory.net/) is generally accepted as the best music theory teaching website on the net. i don't know how well it teaches music reading, though.

[Kanthos]

The best way to read sheet music, in my opinion, is to start with really easy music and just do it. As long as you know enough theory to play the piece, no matter how slowly (i.e. as long as you know the lines and spaces on the staff), then you can sit down with any piece of music and play it, albeit with mistakes and very slowly. Get yourself some beginner-level sight reading books and work your way through them. Reading music really is a skill that requires a bit of knowledge, although more knowledge like knowing chords helps, and a lot of practice.

[Yoozer]

http://www.chordmaps.com/ is also a nice simple site for this.

He did say that I probably wont understand modes since its a little advanced.
While trying to teach someone something they're not ready for yet is usually not a good idea - a foundation helps a lot - I hope he'd at least explain the basics to you, and lets you listen to Coltrane's "Giant Steps" ;).

[Synth]

http://www.chordmaps.com/ is also a nice simple site for this.


While trying to teach someone something they're not ready for yet is usually not a good idea - a foundation helps a lot - I hope he'd at least explain the basics to you, and lets you listen to Coltrane's "Giant Steps" ;).

He definetly explained the basics. He told me, "this may not complety make sense to you, but in time while we go over some other stuff you will understand."

I'm also considering to just take piano lessons as well.

[Ytmh]

I just gotta add something to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

I think here it explains in pretty good detail how modes work and how they sound like. Generally modal scales have certain special attributes which identify them. It's generally an interval, or something of the such which gives the mode it's character.

Modes were generally written back then for regular person's voice, so they don't feature many jumps and the like. It's also one thing that gives modal scales their character, when one sees the rather simple and scale-like movement by degrees rather than using jumps.

Mostly to write in a mode one must then understand what characterizes it, and then if one intends to further write in style, one must start thinking that this was regular people (not trained singers, etc) that sung these melodies. As such they can't be too complicated or long.

One major trait that characterizes modal melodies and such is that there is generally no leading note. That is, the seventh degree of the scale is generally not a major seventh interval.

So there, this should be enough. Study much~

[BardicKnowledge]

Until you have a basic grasp of major and minor keys, I would completely forget that modes exist for the time being -- they are very rarely used in modern music, and are complex enough that they may confuse you. With that said, one (very) quick explanation:

Most often they are used when a composer wants a melody that isn't built in a "regular" scale. For instance, the Lydian scale raises the 4th scale degree (C# replaces C in the key of G), which places a different interval (in this case, a tritone) inside the fundamental scale that melody is built out of.

For now, think of the major scale as the "normal" one, and then construct the minor scale by lowering the 3rd, 6th, and (optionally -- decide which sound you prefer for each situation) the 7th. So for g minor you arrive at the following... G A Bb C D Eb F G. Occasionally you stick in the F# from the original major scale anyway, because it is a more powerful resolution to the tonic (G). Unfortunately, "occasionally" is the best term I can give you -- it's really a decision that needs to be made by the composer / arranger in every individual case.