What keyboard should I buy?

[zircon]

This question gets asked repeatedly, so here it is, a (mostly) definitive guide on the subject. For the purposes of this thread, a "keyboard" can refer to any one of four things: a MIDI controller, a digital piano, a synthesizer, or a workstation. We will go into all of these. For a computer-based music production setup, a keyboard can be a very useful tool, though it is not required. So let's define these things first.

Definitions

MIDI Controller: A MIDI controller is a device that *only* transmits MIDI data, such as notes and note velocities. Not all MIDI controllers are keyboards - some only have knobs, sliders, or buttons - but for our purposes we will talk about the keyboard controllers. They can be anywhere from 1 or 2 octaves to 88 keys. They can also have additional knobs, buttons, sliders, or drum pads. MIDI Controllers do not generate or alter sound! Though previously connected using standard MIDI cables, which can connect to a computer using the joystick port, almost all modern controllers use USB which is far more efficient.

Digital Piano: A digital piano is designed to feel AND sound as close to a real piano as possible. The keyboard is designed in such a way as to mimic the action and feel of real piano keys. Other keyboards mentioned here can have realistic action as well, but typically, digital pianos are the absolute closest you can get. They do not usually come with other special features or gizmos like knobs, pitchbend/modwheel, or faders. They may or may not have MIDI In/Out or built-in speakers (if it does not have speakers, it will have a headphone and/or audio port). Digital pianos come with audio generating capabitilies (a piano sound, obviously) but may have a limited variety of other sounds like strings, choirs, organs, and electric pianos as well. Effects like reverb, chorus, or phasing may be included. They also usually have a metronome and some sort of song recording capability.

Synthesizer: A synthesizer generates and processes sound using analog or digital methods, or both. There are MANY types of synthesizers, from basic analog subtractive synthesizers, to advanced multi-synthesis devices. There are "desktop" and "rackmount" synths that do not have keyboards, but of course we are talking about the ones with a keyboard built in; they can be from 2 octaves to full range, with different feels and actions. Modern synthesizers receive MIDI data and may send it as well; they always produce some kind of audio. The exact capabilities of any given synth vary greatly.

Workstation: A workstation combines elements from the above three categories. They have a keyboard that usually feels fairly realistic, send/receive MIDI data, allow you to sequence and record music, and have a variety of sounds on them (and may have a built-in synthesizer as well). For the sake of discussion, I DO consider low-end models like the Yamaha PSR series and Casio keyboards to be workstations, since in design and basic function, they are the same.

Budget Considerations
MIDI Controllers are typically the cheapest keyboards you can buy. For a small controller with minimal bells & whistles, you may not even pay $200. The high end is about $600 or $700 for full-range, hammer-action (realistic) controllers with tons of extra features.

Digital pianos can get very expensive, and start in the $500-600 range. High end models can cost $2000 or more. However, most trained piano players believe this is a good investment.

Synthesizers with keyboards start around $500-600 and can exceed $3000, though this is mainly because of the synth's features, not the action of the keyboard (unlike the price scaling of digital pianos and MIDI controllers).

Workstations start in the $200-300 range, though these are more designed for educational tools rather than serious production. They extend all the way up to $7000-8000.

How many keys?
The amount of keys you want on your keyboard depends on what you are going to be using it for, and your level of ability.

* If you ONLY plan on using the keyboard to speed up note entry in a program like Finale or Sibelius, step sequencing, or simply for testing out brief passages, it is doubtful you will use more than 32 keys. 25 keys may even be sufficient.

* If you do plan on recording parts, but they are not complex (eg. synth basslines, simple leads, string pads) then 32 or 49 keys will likely be sufficient.

* If you are going to do more extensive recording of non-classical material, or want to use "performance" synth patches or keyboard splits, 61 keys is a safe number.

* If you know your way around a piano and are recording classical material then of course you will want the full 88 keys.

Note that just because you are WRITING music that has a full range, does not necessarily mean you will need a KEYBOARD with a full range. For example, you might think that doing realistic orchestral tracks necessitates an 88-key controller. Not true. You won't be playing in the full orchestra all at once. You'll write/record the violins, then the french horns, then the percussion, etc. Each of these instruments do not require more than a 32 to 49 key range - at most - and usually a lot less. Additionally, any decent keyboard has the ability to move octaves up and down. This way, even if you only have 25 keys, you can record a full range if necessary.

Audio - Yes or No?
An important question to ask is whether you only want a MIDI controller, or whether features beyond that involving audio are necessary. This is somewhat dependant on what your current setup is, and what you are looking to do.

* If you only have basic or free software for recording & MIDI editing, even an inexpensive workstation can add a LOT. Many remixes on this site were created with cheaper keyboard workstations, and to this day they are used regularly. The sounds included on these keyboards are usually very "musical" and usable, and require less tweaking to sound good.

* If you prefer to do as little post-editing as possible, or loathe the idea of using the mouse to edit what you've done, again, a workstation is a great idea. With a more expensive workstation in the $1000-$2000 range, you will get everything you need to create a great track - powerful synthesis, sampling, audio editing, recording, etc. You may not even need a computer at all.

* If you have several thousand dollars worth of software tools (or more), adding a synthesizer or workstation may be somewhat redundant. A MIDI controller is perhaps all you will need to control all your virtual toys.

* If you are interested in doing any live performance (eg. you will be up on stage), I recommend AGAINST using your computer with a MIDI controller. A synthesizer, digital piano, or workstation will all be far more stable. Of those, a workstation or synthesizer will give you more variety than a digital piano.

* If you are an experienced piano player, the combination of an expensive software piano library with a weighted MIDI controller can deliver great results. But it is easier, and comparable in price, to simply get a digital piano.

Feature Considerations
Modern keyboards can come with lots of cool extra features, but you may not need or even want some of them. Others could prove essential. Here's a rundown of what's out there.

* Synth action vs. semi-weighted vs. hammer action - These represent the 'feel' of the keyboard. Synth action means the keys will offer very little physical resistance. If you are used to playing a real piano, it will feel unnatural, though you can get used to it. If you need to input fast sequences of notes this may be what you want. Semi-weighted vs. fully weighted or hammer action are simply degrees of realism. More realistic feels mean the resistance of each key responds appropriate to pressure, and acts like a real piano would when the key is released. The different parts of the keyboard may even be scaled (eg. high notes = less resistance, low notes = more). Rule of thumb; you get what you pay for. An $800 digital piano will feel less realistic than a $2000 one.

* Modwheel, pitch bend - Most keyboards have this, but some don't. The modwheel is most often used to add vibrato to a sound, though it can do a lot of other stuff as well. When performing something, it is VERY useful in making a synth or sample sound more realistic. The pitch bend wheel is also important for 'humanizing' a performance. A guitar solo without pitch bending would not be very interesting. Many sample libraries today actually rely on the modwheel to alter the quality of the sound, so it is really something nice to have.

* X/Y Controller - This is a method of entering in MIDI data. You apply pressure on a pad and move your finger in any direction. You could assign the X axis to a filter cutoff, and the Y axis to resonance, for example. A useful method of control if you like doing a lot of automation, or if you are performing live.

* Assignable knobs, faders, sliders, buttons - Fairly self explanatory. A lot of keyboards come with an array of extra physical features that you can assign, using your computer, to various parameters. If you have 4 assignable buttons, you could use them to mute and unmute different instruments. Faders/sliders can be assigned to volume levels in your mixer. Sequencing software like FLStudio, Reason, Cubase, and Sonar all make it very easy to set up these assignable controllers, save a setup, and recall it later. Very useful if you like physical, tactile control.

(continued)

[zircon]

* Aftertouch - This is a feature that detects how much pressure you are applying to a key once it's already down. It is somewhat less common than other features on this list, but is yet another way of humanizing a performance and controlling sounds. If you are really into soloing on your keyboard, this is a great feature. Some sample libraries now assign aspects of sounds to aftertouch by default, such as the Garritan Stradivarius violin library.

* LCD Display - It might sound like a no brainer, but consider the size and scope of the keyboard's visual display. Some keyboards have massive, full color displays with high resolution. Others may only show 3 alphanumeric characters at once. If you're going to be doing a lot of editing on your keyboard, think about a larger display. But keep in mind that some keyboards with small displays connect to your computer through USB and let you use software to change settings.

The Bottom Line
Ok, so now we get to the fun stuff - the exact models themselves. I'm going to list 7 keyboards total that I think are well-worth the money.

* Alesis QS6.2 (http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALEQS62) - $500 - At this price, it is hard to find a combo workstation/synthesizer with more features (AND 61 keys). The QS8.2 model is full range. Alesis makes great products so if you're looking for a workhorse this is an excellent choice.

* Edirol PCRM-30 (http://www.zzounds.com/item--EDIPCRM30) - $170 - This is a nice & compact 32-key MIDI controller with USB connectivity. The keys are sturdy, it's lightweight, and comes with an assortment of knobs + sliders. Great if you're doing electronic music.

* M-Audio Axiom 61 (http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOAXIOM61) - $300 - A mighty MIDI controller indeed. djpretzel himself uses this; with a load of features and 61 keys, it is a great buy and looks sleek as well.

* Korg TR76 Synth Workstation (http://www.zzounds.com/item--KORTR76) - $1300 - Though not exactly a budget choice, the TR76 draws from the power of the famed Korg Triton workstation line, which is one of the most used in the world for all kinds of music production. The keyboard features are extensive (76 keys + aftertouch, among other things) and it has some great synthesis and effects capabilities.

* Yamaha P70 Digital Piano (http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMP70) - $700 - A roughly midrange digital piano. Yamaha has always been a strong brand and their expertise shows. If you are a more discriminating pianist, this is a good choice.

* M-Audio Keystation 88 Pro (http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOKEYSTAT88) - $400 - For a weighted, full-range keyboard with 30+ knobs, sliders, and buttons, this is a pretty unbelievable value. The keys pale in comparison to a real piano or a good digital piano, but they are much better than synth action... and considering how little more you pay to get it, this is one of the best choices for computer musicians that want a budget full-range controller. Note: it is large and HEAVY - almost 3x the weight of the Axiom 61!!!

* Clavia Nord Lead NL2X (http://www.zzounds.com/item--NORNL2X) - $1000 - If you're a fan of electronic music, then you should be interested in this synthesizer. With 49 keys, it may seem like it's not a great value, but it sounds fantastic and is fairly intuitive to use. Very nice as an all-around VA (virtual analog) synth. Excellent for performance as well. And hey, The Crystal Method uses one...

Conclusion
Unless you have a bank account that is too large and you're dying to minimize it as quickly as possible, chances are, a keyboard will be a fairly big investment - so choose wisely! Use this thread to discuss the topic, ask questions, make comments, or suggest additions. Also feel free to leave reviews or thoughts on keyboards you own or have used.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

very nice, this is just what i needed. (b^_^)b

[OverCoat]

thx u

̣̣̣̣̣̣̣̣̣̣̣

[JoyBoy]

What do you think of these keybords by Roland:

EXR-40
http://www.roland.com/products/en/EXR-40_OR/index.html
Price: 660 $

EXR-46
http://www.roland.com/products/en/EXR-46_OR/specs.html
Price: 820 $

[zircon]

Ah yes, I believe those are basically workstations oriented towards more traditional (non-computer) arrangers who specialize in oriental music. Probably not what the average person here would want for a general purpose workstation.

[OverCoat]

oriented towards... oriental music
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[herograw]

Thanks for the useful info, JoyBoy. This is exactly what I was looking for!

[Dhsu]

Ah, nice to see there are digital pianos for those with lower budgets. I was almost prepared to blow a few grand on a Clavinova...

One important consideration for me, though, is the means of getting the audio into my PC. Saving as MIDI onto floppy or USB would ideal for me in terms of convenience and flexibility, but if necessary I can deal with recording directly into the computer, in which case the sample quality will need to be fairly decent. In either case though, what sort of cables and other accessories would I need?

Also, any opinion on Roland (http://www.zzounds.com/cat--Roland-Digital-Pianos--3342) digital pianos?

[suzumebachi]

Everyone I've talked to says the Roland RD series pianos are freaking awesome. I don't know anything about their console/cabinet type pianos though.

[Xaleph]

A while back I had done a lot of research on the kind of midi controlling hardware (keyboard) that I wanted to use.

My situation was a little different though, I use a laptop to do a lot of my "doodles" and then use my main system for more professional mastering (and audio recording etc etc). So I wanted something that made it easy for me to travel, and still compose good music.

I ended up finding a great solution, and I got it for a great price off of ebay (practically new) with a lot of it's accessories (backpack and other parts).

On zzounds (as zircon used in his post) you can find the sources here:
Backpack (http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOSTUPACK)
$69.95

M-Audio Oxygen 8 v2 (http://www.zzounds.com/item--MIMOXYGEN8)
$119.00

Now I got mine a while back, and it's the previous version of Oxygen 8 (whose setup I liked quite a bit, larger mod wheels and pitch bend wheel).

It has 25 keys, mod/pitch wheels, it has some nice knobs you can determine through your software what you want them to control, it has a midi channel selector, and buttons to change your octave set. The new version has quite a few more options, but the older model certainly do what I bought it for. It's great, you don't need to use a power cable or anything, just connect the usb cable and it's automatically powered. I use this on business trips, family trips, in the car if I'm not driving, on planes, and many times at home because it's easier to set up than getting all my gear connected (and then having to put it away when I'm done). It's space efficient and simple. I'm not saying it's a must have, but I would highly recommend it for software composition.

[Antipode]

Looking for some advice. I want a keyboard for two purposes - the first is just simply to be able to screw around and play with chords and noodle around until I can figure out new melodies, which is probably the most important use for me. The second, once I get good enough at practicing basic piano with it, is to possibly provide small live solos for my music. In addition, I want at least 61 keys (so I'd be able to still play piano if I liked). I own FL Studio, and I'm fine with having the keyboard just be a MIDI controller to be integrated with my current "setup". Remember that pretty much the primary reason I want it is just to play with sound and chords so I can come up with new melody ideas, but I don't want to be kept from learning basic piano on it as well. One other thing would be that I'd like to have it in the 100-250 dollar price range, which might be tough with that number of keys. Any recommendations?

EDIT: I'm looking at the M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 at the moment...it's decent, in my price range (used) and possibly what I'm looking for but I've heard mixed things. Anyone have any other ideas that beat out the keystation in value? Also one last question that I've been thinking about is latency - with these kind of controllers I don't want any delay at all between the press of the key and the sound from the speakers. Should I expect something like that, even with a fast computer?

[SILVERWOLF]

I grabbed an 88 key midi controller Studiologic Fatar 990 used for $190. Awesome key action too.

Just hunt around for something used. You'll save a lot of money that way.

[Antipode]

Thanks, I'll keep that one in mind too.

[sleipnir]

I'm looking into buying a keyboard, and I really liked the idea of the Edirol PCRM-30 (http://www.zzounds.com/item--EDIPCRM30). It looked to be a pretty nice keyboard for under $200, the problem is, it's discontinued now. I'm sure it might be available somewhere, but I liked the concept of buying off zzounds through affiliation. Could someone suggest a good ~200 dollar keyboard? I'm not using it for anything huge, so 32 keys would be nice. By the way, does zzounds ship to Canada? Thanks.

[zircon]

$200 USD or Canadian?

Anything in the Oxygen line will be pretty solid:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOOXYGEN49

You get some synth action, USB connectivity, and extra controls should you need them. But pretty much anything on this list will be fine. Most synth-action MIDI controllers are quite similar.

http://www.zzounds.com/cat--Compact-Keyboard-Controllers--2687

[sleipnir]

Thanks a ton for the quick reply, zircon. It will be $200 Canadian, although there's not much a of a difference in conversion these days. $140 is an outstandingly reasonable price for a decent 49-key keyboard. I appreciate the help!

[Kanthos]

$200 CDN is pretty close to $200 US at the moment, so it probably doesn't matter either way.

ZZounds doesn't ship to Canada, but I highly recommend Kelly's Music and Computers (www.kellysmusic.ca) based in Manitoba. I've bought from them a number of times and have been impressed with their services and prices. Only catch is sometimes they don't have things in stock, particularly academic versions (which are always special orders for them) so there can sometimes be a delay on shipping. I imagine keyboards are fairly standard though; things like less-common software synths are more likely to be delayed. They also ship at least some of their items for free too, if you're willing to use standard shipping service instead of express; I've never bought anything as heavy as a keyboard, but I've never paid them shipping.

For an example of price: I ordered WayOutWare's TimewARP 2600 VST this morning. It cost $193 CDN at Kelly's, and would go for $250 US on WayOutWare's site, and that's as a download version. I've seen similar price differences on the entire Native Instruments product line as well. I've actually never seen Kelly's sell for the same or more as the software manufacturer.

[sleipnir]

Thanks for the link to the website. I managed to find the Oxygen 49 on Kelly's Music for $134.99. It's a shame zzounds doesn't ship to Canada, I thought the association between here and zzounds was a very beneficial deal to both parties.

[Chiwalker]

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Yamaha-PSR-E213-Portable-Keyboard-104388376-i1177442.gc
+
http://www.guitarcenter.com/CME-U2MIDI-USB-Cable-Like-MIDI-Interface-703036-i1390346.gc
=
?

Will these things work together with PC?
I'm a noob thx...

[Lunahorum]

yes they would

[Diemer]

Do most (or any) of these keyboards, or devices similar to them, allow you to record an electric guitar straight onto your computer? If not, what other equipment would you need?

EDIT: I may have just found some other ways to do it in a neighboring thread, but if it CAN be done through a keyboard or MIDI controller, that'd be good to know too.

[OverCoat]

Do most (or any) of these keyboards, or devices similar to them, allow you to record an electric guitar straight onto your computer? If not, what other equipment would you need?

EDIT: I may have just found some other ways to do it in a neighboring thread, but if it CAN be done through a keyboard or MIDI controller, that'd be good to know too.

That'd be an interesting feature, but most people would probably prefer a Pod or micing their amps.

[Lunahorum]

this is what you are looking for.
http://line6.com/toneportkb37/

[OverCoat]

amazing̣̣̣̣

[Zephyr]

That's bizarre, I've never seen something like that before, I find it odd that they would make a combination like that, maybe a keyboard with USB ports for a mic or something... Hope you had exactly 37 keys in mind.

[Diemer]

Wow. That actually looks pretty sweet. The 37 keys might be a little small, but everything else looks nice. I have another question though, before I buy it. This is going to be my first keyboard and my first foray into remixing and all that, so I don't know the basics of all this. The keyboard says it has all sorts of different guitar sounds and such, but can I still use it with soundfonts on my computer? Would I be able to use it with programs other than the one that it comes with/is designed for? I guess that was two questions. Oh well.

[Kanthos]

You could possibly use that with soundfonts, but you'd have to have a second way to record audio, probably a good, low-latency soundcard. You'd do something like this: you'd record MIDI (or play it live), sending the MIDI data to the soundfont player. The soundfont would play, sending its signal to your soundcard's output. You run a cable from your soundcard's output to the Toneport KB37's input, and then get your DAW to record the input from the KB37.

You might be better off buying a larger MIDI controller and a Line6 Pod or other multi-effects processor though (or, if you're a guitarist, even consider a Line6 amp with the Pod functionality built in). I'd bet the KB37 is limited in terms of the effects it has compared to other Line6 products, and if you want to play keyboard as well, 37 keys isn't a big range unless all you're doing is single-hand lead lines.

[Lunahorum]

You could possibly use that with soundfonts, but you'd have to have a second way to record audio, probably a good, low-latency soundcard. You'd do something like this: you'd record MIDI (or play it live), sending the MIDI data to the soundfont player. The soundfont would play, sending its signal to your soundcard's output. You run a cable from your soundcard's output to the Toneport KB37's input, and then get your DAW to record the input from the KB37.
That sounds pretty crazy. Why wouldn't you simply record the midi data and play the soundfont that way? And even if you wanted to record audio, why don't you just route the output of the soundfont player into the DAW's audio recorder? Sending the signal out from the soundcard to the keyboard and then back in is unnecessary. In fact, the keyboard IS a soundcard. It does D/A and A/D.
It should never be more complicated than this picture http://line6.com/toneportkb37/images/toneportkb37_setup.gif

if you want to play keyboard as well, 37 keys isn't a big range unless all you're doing is single-hand lead lines. True to that.

I'd bet the KB37 is limited in terms of the effects it has compared to other Line6 products
Same exact sounds/effects as the tone port UX2.

[Kanthos]

That sounds pretty crazy. Why wouldn't you simply record the midi data and play the soundfont that way? And even if you wanted to record audio, why don't you just route the output of the soundfont player into the DAW's audio recorder? Sending the signal out from the soundcard to the keyboard and then back in is unnecessary. In fact, the keyboard IS a soundcard. It does D/A and A/D.

I may have misinterpreted his request. What I said is necessary if you want your soundfont audio to be processed with effects from the KB37. If, on the other hand, you just want to play on the keyboard and record clean audio, or use software effects, than what you said is correct. I have yet to do it, since I usually play live instead of recording, but I've got the setup to use my PodXT for external effects on a MIDI track, like I described. If I were doing that, I'd probably want to record both the MIDI from the keyboard, audio from the Pod, and possibly MIDI automation from the Pod, much like recording a dry and wet signal for a guitar, so that you can change the effects later.

Anyway, Diemer, the KB37 should work as a MIDI interface, so any DAW or other recording program that can record MIDI data and use it to drive a soundfont should work with it.

Same exact sounds/effects as the tone port UX2.

I think the PodXT does more, and the Pod X3 almost certainly does. All depends what you want, really, in terms of effects and whether you want them in hardware or software.

Edit: I took a look at the KB37 page, and here are some things you should know.

1) It does not appear to have any effects done in hardware, although I'm not certain on that (check the manual here (http://www.line6.com/toneportkb37/index.html) to make sure). Effects are done through the Gearbox software, if not through hardware.

2) The version of Gearbox that comes with the software is standalone. To use Gearbox within another host, including the bundled Ableton Live Lite, you'll probably need to purchase the Gearbox plugin for $100.

3) The KB37 doesn't have any MIDI inputs or outputs, so if you have any other MIDI gear, other than expression pedals, you're out of luck.

I'd say that this product is only good if you want a simple MIDI keyboard and audio interface that does effects in some way, you're fine. If you're a keyboard player, you'll want something with more than 37 keys. If you just want an audio interface, there are cheaper alternatives (because they won't have a keyboard included). I'd say this product hits a very small niche; make sure it's what you want before you spend money on it, because there are other good alternatives.

[Lunahorum]

ah
I see now

[squeakypants]

Is there anything wrong with something like this as a beginner keyboard/MIDI controller?
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Casio-CTK-720-61-Key-Portable-Keyboard-with-Learning-System-and-Sing-Along-Mic-Input-Refurb-702715-i1393886.gc
It's $80 new, 61 key, and USB-out.

[Zephyr]

I don't see any problem with it, although I noticed it didn't mention velocity sensing anywhere, (but I'd just assume it's in there).

[Diemer]

If you're using software with lots of soundfonts and effects and whatnot, does it really matter if your keyboard has voices and effects of its own?

[Lunahorum]

Yea the voices on those casios suck compared to free software. I would recommend this for a cheap, sub $100 keyboard. http://www.jr.com/maudio/pe/MIM_KEYRIG49M/ Best option would be to go to the music store and try some different models.

[Kanthos]

If you're using software with lots of soundfonts and effects and whatnot, does it really matter if your keyboard has voices and effects of its own?

You can probably spend the same amount and get a better-quality controller with no sounds (although you won't be able to perform live with it unless you haul your computer around too, which isn't a big deal if you have a laptop; I do that every couple weeks). It's quite easy to get better sounds than a cheap, low-end keyboard with free or inexpensive plugins.

[Diemer]

Is that Toneport kb37 pretty unique in terms of keyboards that can also record guitar? Are there others that could do the same thing, maybe with a better quality keyboard?

[Kanthos]

I won't guarantee any of these are any good, but I went to Kelly's Music & Computers (the place I buy my gear from here in Canada). They have a wizard for selecting keyboards based on what you want. Here's (http://www.kellysmusic.ca/wizards/midicontrollerwiz.asp?Sid=4) the list of all keyboards with soundcards; some or all of them should be able to accept a 1/4" input from a guitar.

EDIT: The link doesn't save your search results; you'll have to go through the wizard yourself (it'll take you ~15 seconds) to get to the results. Remember to pick keyboards that are also sound cards.

[Chiwalker]

I know I already asked about another keyboard, but I think I'm content with this - http://www.guitarcenter.com/Yamaha-PSR-E403-61-Key-Portable-Keyboard-103870358-i1155036.gc

What do you think, will it be compatible / useful in FL studio 8?

[Yoozer]

Compatibility is never the problem. You either have an USB port on the back that acts as a MIDI interface or you have (or should get) a USB MIDI interface.

The problem is that those keyboards have onboard sounds (useless if you use plugins only) and no rotary knobs or sliders.

[Lunahorum]

http://cgi.ebay.com/M-Audio-Keystation-49e-USB-Midi-Keyboard-Controller_W0QQitemZ160252268893QQihZ006QQcategory Z41784QQtcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewI tem

[Chiwalker]

http://cgi.ebay.com/M-Audio-Keystation-49e-USB-Midi-Keyboard-Controller_W0QQitemZ160252268893QQihZ006QQcategory Z41784QQtcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewI tem
Ok, but the only pro I see in this is 1 more slider and knob...is that necessary?

[Lunahorum]

it was cheap and a good deal if it was in good shape.

[Diemer]

The first post defined synth action, hammer action and semi-weighted, but what about when it just says "velocity sensing" or "touch sensitive"? Where do those fit in?

[Zephyr]

Velocity sensing just means that it can read how hard you hit/press the key, it is a common trait in almost all keyboards, it's unrelated to key action.

Chances are that the keyboard is synth action and they're just not telling you. If it were semi-weighted or hammer action they would make a point to tell you.

[Diemer]

Ok, so velocity sensing is the keyboard detecting how hard/fast you're hitting the key, and synth action/hammer action etc is just how much it feels like a piano?

[Malcos]

Ok, so velocity sensing is the keyboard detecting how hard/fast you're hitting the key, and synth action/hammer action etc is just how much it feels like a piano?

Yep, that's it.

[Chiwalker]

As if I hadn't posted in this thread enough....

I WILL get one of these, just curious about opinions of other people - I intend to use it with FL studio 8.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--KORK61P
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOOXYGEN61
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHUMX61

I'm leaning towards the Behringer, but the Korg is getting really good reviews. :whatevaa: hmm

[Katsurugi]

I suppose posting in here is more relevant than making my own thread. But I am looking into buying a digital piano in the near future. Though I read zircon's recommendation for the Yamaha P70, I felt that Casio's Privia PX120 (or PX110 is just as good). I'm not too sure what the difference is between the two, but I can get the PX110 off of Amazon for a cool $405 USD new.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--CASPX120

I went to Guitar Center and found the keys on the Casio keyboards to be stiffer and the sound to be a bit "brighter" compared to the Yamaha ones. Maybe someone was banging a lot on the displayed Yamaha ones though... you never know. I'm not looking too much feature-wise. Sure MIDI out is a great addition, but not a requirement. I'd probably have to buy an adapter if I want to connect it to my computer via USB. I'm just looking for something with good keys (weighted and velocity sensing) and not too much outside of that. I'm just going to be using a piano for.. piano-ing... The reason I'm going digital is that it's pretty convenient to move around and I could use headphones whenever I want too.

Anyone have own one of these or have an opinion on them?

[big giant circles]

since Casio and Yamaha appeal typically to different markets on the large scale, you usually get more bang for your buck by getting a Casio. Privia vs. P85 (the new P70) is a great example. You have a few more instrument patches as well as features like tune and transpose, and a few basic drum patterns in addition to the ability to record a little.

I would say that generally, I prefer Yamaha's action to Casio's, but only slightly. They're both very comparable. The Privia is a good choice, and it'll save you some money. Go for it.

[Dhsu]

So I got a $100 gift card at Best Buy for my birthday, so I'm looking for a MIDI controller around $150 although I can do $200-$250 if it's really worth it. I can get anything from this list (http://www.bestbuy.com/site//olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat151600050037&type=category), assuming my BB actually has it in stock. I'd prefer 61 keys, but I can probably live with 49 if it means I'm getting a much better quality product.

Suggestions? So far it looks like either the Oxygen 49 or this (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8885664&st=61&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1211455041863).

[Zephyr]

For your price range the Oxygen would be a good choice I think, however being the piano player that you are maybe you'd rather save up and get an 88 key full weighted keyboard, you might regret getting the smaller synth action one later. However, the fancy 88 weighted ones are quite a bit more expensive, and if you're branching out now (like you did with the dodgeball mix) then the oxygen would be very useful. If a small synth action keyboard is what you want, then the oxygen is probably a really good buy.

[Dhsu]

Yeah, that's a good point, although I was thinking it might be nice to have both eventually. A couple reasons I'm hesitant to get a full 88-key at the moment is that, first, it has to be at Best Buy, and while the prices are actually decent ($550 for a PX120 with stand and 3 pedals), I'm thinking I could probably get a better deal elsewhere (like here (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Casio-PX-120-88-Key-Digital-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ200288240886QQcmdZViewItemQQptZK eyboards_MIDI?hash=item200288240886&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A13 18|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50)). And second, I don't expect to be staying where I am too long, and a 52" keyboard will make fitting all my stuff in my Corolla much more complicated. %^(

[Aevon]

Hello, I need help deciding which keyboard to purchase. I currently already own a Yamaha Clavinova, and while it sounds amazing, it is floppy-card Only, and it isn't very portable either (aka won't be able to leave the house).

I would be using it mostly to record my ideas down. I currently input each note by note, but everything sounds too... robotic. Perhaps, if I actually record myself playing on a keyboard, the instruments might sound more realistic, due to the variety in velocity and timing, etc, something I'm not sure how to do when I'm doing note by note. When recording, I am usually at home on my Mac Pro.

Here's the thing: I might be performing live, but I'm thinking of just using an audio program, such as Logic Studio (or Mainstage, which comes with the suite), to provide the sounds. (It's very likely I am going to have Pro-Tools soon too).

Should I purchase a keyboard with no sounds, and simply combine the use of my keyboard and software to perform live? Or should I be looking for a keyboard that not only connects to the computer USB/Firewire, but also has realistic piano sounds?

My budget, while it isn't too constricted, I'd like to of course, not waste money. I think ~$500 might be adequate, but I might be able to spend more, etc.

I think these three keyboards might be right for me, but I am not sure:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALEQS62
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOAXIOM61
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOKEYSTAT88

If anyone has any advice on which of these keyboards I should get, please let me know. If you feel I am looking at the wrong area (which I might be), please tell me. Thank you! :)

[Zephyr]

The Axiom and Keystation are very popular around here, I've got an axiom 61 myself. It depends on what you want for whether you'd get a keystation or not though. Is hammer action a big deal to you? If so then the keystation is a fairly inexpensive 88-key keyboard. If you want portability you'd be better off with the smaller axiom and oxygen models. As soon as you add onboard sounds the price jumps up rather quickly, so if you can just use your laptop instead that's probably the cheaper route. Good luck.

[MoonDoggie]

Ok, I've learned a great deal from various post around the forums, but just not enough to warrant a purchase of any type of equipment yet.

But I am looking in the direction of the M-Audio oxygen 61 midi controller. There's just a few things I hope someone can clarify for me.

1. It seems the best way to get sound output from this thing is to connect it to something like the Roland JV-1080 as I believe it doesn't have sound or effects of its own. My question is will I be able to just get away with some VST plugins in music software such as Cubase? (Of course, I don't expect anything amazing from this but hopefully it'll allow me to just mess around a bit for now.)

2. This leads me to my second question. Is this controller just plug and play? I have no experience with how these things work. I'm guessing it just connects through usb but i'm not too sure. I also plan on buying a sound card, either the emu 0404 or going with a firebox to be able to connect my guitar into my desktop for recording. (The firebox seems like it's a bit overkill for me as all I really want to do is be able to record some guitar play.) Would it be better to connect the keyboard through one of those instead?

Those are really the only things that are holding me back from my purchases as of right now. Any answers to these question will be greatly appriciated.

[Zephyr]

1. Confusing question... but yes you can definitely get by with just VST plugins, that's all a lot of people use around here, you may want to buy some fancy ones, but you can get by on just VST's.

2. It's pretty much plug and play, you put in the CD that comes with it and install the drivers and then you should be good to go. If you get a new soundcard/firebox you can use it as your audio device when using your keyboard, this will improve your latency. But you won't need to actually plug your keyboard into the soundcard.

[MoonDoggie]

awesome! Thanks for the speedy reply and sorry about the confusing question. Exactly what I was hoping to hear though.

By the way, I see you have yourself a mighty nice tf2 siggy. Lately I've been recording and doing commentaries on the spy class and I believe I actually uploaded a recent commentary of a round I played on OCR's server to youtube. I think you might have been playing during the recording. Anyway nice server ya'll have there but I did want ask something about it. When ever I try to catch a game on the server, it's usally empty. Is there a certain time of day when it starts to get busy? I'd love to have some more friendly matches with the OCR community.

And again, thanks a bunch for the help earlier.

[Yoozer]

1. It seems the best way to get sound output from this thing is to connect it to something like the Roland JV-1080
Or a computer with a software sampler and a library.

as I believe it doesn't have sound or effects of its own.
If you look at the back you won't see an audio output, so no :).

My question is will I be able to just get away with some VST plugins in music software such as Cubase?
Cubase 4 has Halion One which has a similar philosophy behind it as the 1080 - cram a ton of samples into a box, seal it, and let people play.

There's also Proteus VX (free) which is E-mus take on the JV-1080 box.

I've got the Roland XP-30 - the keyboard version of the 1080, basically. I also have NI Kontakt 3. In terms of sound quality, Kontakt is better - but it takes a lot longer to load up a sound. My XP-30 is faster, but editing sounds is a chore with the small display, and its sounds aren't that hyper-realistic. The default Rhodes piano is meh, the one in the expansion board is a lot better, and the orchestral sounds in the expansion card are passable but pale compared to Kontakt's VSL.


2. This leads me to my second question. Is this controller just plug and play?
Besides installing the driver like Zephyr says, Cubase has to know that you want to use this as a controller, so you might have to enable it somewhere in a menu.

Would it be better to connect the keyboard through one of those instead?
Doesn't make a difference.

[Zephyr]

Offtop: Lately it's been really dead on the TF2 server Moondoggie, but we TRY to have an ocr night every saturday. I'm hoping that we can play some more TF2 sometime soon.

[MoonDoggie]

maorofftop: Aww, that's unfortunate. Hopefully it'll get busy again. The last time I played there turned out to be a ton of fun.

ontop: Thanks for the words of advice yoozer.

I finally broke down and got the oxygen from guitar center. Sorry OCremix.com, I would've gotten it online to help you guys out but I just really wanted to try it out back at home. But hey, you guys don't have to worry.....because karma made sure to come over and bite me on the ass. When I finally got the thing home and opened it, I learnt that apprently usb cables have a tendancy to wonder off. So for now I'm just stuck here staring at the thing. I plan on picking up the cable tomorrow.

Thanks again for the adivce to those who gave it out.

[Yoozer]

So for now I'm just stuck here staring at the thing. I plan on picking up the cable tomorrow.

If you have a printer hooked up via USB, use that cable. It's most likely the same.

[hewhoisiam]

This thing caught my eye: http://www.zzounds.com/item--KORNANOKEYB

I'd call this the 'dirt cheap' option. But it also appeals to me because I don't have much space to work with. And 50$ with me being doesn't sound bad either. I don't care too much about the feel (those keys look spot on with what I'm typing with right now. I guess) I'm wanting it to speed up hearing things, simple short progressions, and much less mouse work. Plus, If I decide to get another controller later, this is 50 bucks. Have I mentioned that I'm cheap?

Product highlights as I get the good ones:
-In CC (Control Change) MODE, the keys become MIDI controllers
-12 highly responsive trigger pads, also capable of sending both notes and MIDI control data, plus an X-Y pad with roll and flam functions
-nine faders, nine knobs and 18 switches plus a full transport section
-nanoKEY includes a download code for the full version of Korg's M1Le, which faithfully recreates the legendary Korg M1 workstation

OH YEAH, this too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taDe3yHB1HY

[Adamantium Dude]

Has anyone had any experience with M-Audio's Axiom 49? (http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOAXIOM49) I'm thinking of picking up a keyboard to make note input easier and to record MIDI, but I've been playing piano for a little while so I dunno if I could get used to synth action (the axioms are semi-weighted), and 49 keys seems like a good compromise between too few and too many, although the keyboard might be a bit too big. I dunno.

[Kanthos]

I used to own an Axiom 61, and it was a great controller. It is semi-weighted, *not* synth action (the two are not the same thing). I had no problems adjusting to semi-weighted action, but I also have a strong piano background (almost 23 years since I first started playing), so I'm probably more versatile than you are at this point.

If you're good enough to play parts with both hands at once, you'll invariably find 49 keys too short. My two keyboards are 61 and 73 keys, and there are times I wish the 61-key was longer.

[Whipsmack]

I need suggestions on a midi keyboard in the $150 range.

[JasonP27]

I am seriously considering purchasing the M-Audio Oxygen 61. I live in Australia, so getting it shipped here from the USA is not an option really, but thank goodness I found a decent online store based in Australia that sells these sorts of things. The cheapest I have found it though has been $279 AUD (about $219.96 USD) + $28.00 shipping at electricroom.com.au (http://www.electricroom.com.au/product/M-Audio/Oxygen+61+-+USB+MIDI+Controller+61-Key) which is a bit more than zzounds.com sells it for ($169 USD w/free shipping) (http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOOXYGEN61)

I have a Pentium D (2-core) processor with 1GB DDR2 RAM and Vista 32bit. The audio card that came with the PC is one of the Realtek High Definition Audio cards (on-board I think).

Will I experience much latency using a USB MIDI controller such as the M-Audio Oxygen 61 with my current setup?

[Kanthos]

You probably will. Latency isn't so much due to the keyboard as it is due to your audio interface. You could try the free ASIO4ALL drivers with your on-board soundcard; failing that, you'd have to get a better audio interface.

[JasonP27]

You probably will. Latency isn't so much due to the keyboard as it is due to your audio interface. You could try the free ASIO4ALL drivers with your on-board soundcard; failing that, you'd have to get a better audio interface.
ok thanks, when I get it and hook it up I will report my findings here for others, and any solutions to any problems that I find and fix... was going to get it for my birthday (Aug 5th) but looks like Christmas or later is now the deal :(

[daJungKI]

so, i just dropped $880 for a yamaha mm8. doesn't have that fancy "aftertouch" thingy but has 88 weighted keys. right, so i've never used a keyboard before and i'm a remixing noob. i was lookin for a keyboard around the 1k price point and this happened to be on sale at guitar center, so i nabbed it. good buy, ya think?

[Kanthos]

IMO, the MM8 is only a good keyboard if you want something suited for remixing and live performance without a computer, and you're on a budget. As far as keyboards go for live performance, the MO8 and now-discontinued (but still on store shelves, if they're not out of stock) Korg TR-88 are both probably within your price range but are much better. I could be wrong on this though; I'm not exactly keyboard shopping right now. And if you just want to remix with a computer, you can certainly get an 88-key weighted controller for cheaper than the MM8, since you wouldn't need the controller to have any sounds on its own.

To be clear, I don't think the MM8 is *bad*, just that there might be better options, depending on what you want to do.

[daJungKI]

thanks for the feedback. live performance isn't the priority here, but it's nice to have; i'ma use it mainly for midi stuff. what options might be better?

[Kanthos]

M-Audio makes two that would be cheaper. The KeyStation Pro 88 is strictly a controller, while the ProKeys 88 is a stage piano and has a few sounds on it. The MM8 will definitely be better than either if you want to do any live performing ever, but these two are at least cheaper. If you really don't care about live performance, they're worth considering. I don't know how realistic the action feels on them compared to the MM8; I haven't played any of them, so you'd probably want to try them out in store if you're thinking about returning the MM8 to save some money.

[daJungKI]

i do care a bit about live performance, and it's always good to have that option available. i did get a decent deal at the sale so as long as there aren't any options that are leaps and bounds better, i'll probably just keep the darn thing.

[Aevon]

Hello. I have a Yamaha Clavinova CVP-69A. While it has been a great keyboard, it has limited portability, has limited computer connection options, and the configuration options of the piano itself are rather lacking when compared to keyboards of today. However, it's natural piano sound is amazing.

I am looking for a keyboard for live performances, and (if possible), minor connectivity to my computer. If I can play a note, and the computer recognizes the note (and what velocity I'm playing at), that's all I need. I own Logic Studio, and a MacBook Pro*. I would like the keyboard to be able to support itself in a performance, and for the samples of the instruments on the keyboard to be good (specifically the piano sounds, but other (good) samples, such as guitar, would be appreciated). It would be great if I could connect the keyboard to my MacBook, and be able to play the samples from the Logic Studio Suite itself in performances (ie using Main Stage). However, I am unsure if such a setup would be stable enough. For example, is there a chance of the system overloading, and freezing all the sounds of the piano?

I am not looking for something overly complex. Something that has thousands of little editing options, such as EQ, are not required. Minor functions such as a pitch wheel and reverb would be appreciated.

The keyboard must be able to be transferred in a standard car. To simplify, it must be portable enough to be carried by one person, and easy to transport with two people. (Aka NOT this: http://www.reidys.com/images/products/7103.jpg)

I have had a recommendation from a friend to go with the Korg PA-500. It seems very nice. Does anyone have an opinion on the said keyboard? How does it compare to a Korg TR76? And are there other brands I should be aware of, such as Roland? (Link of PA-500: http://www.zzounds.com/item--KORPA500)

I will also likely be purchasing an amp to go with the said keyboard. Are there any recommendations for that too?

Price is not really an issue. I suppose if I was asked to put a limit, I would say $2000 (amp not included).

*Specs of MacBook Pro:
13" 2.53GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB DDR3 RAM, nVidia 9400M.


Thank you for your time in reading this.

[Kanthos]

If you're going to be doing live performance, why do you want an arranger keyboard?

[Aevon]

It was a recommendation. If you have a better idea of a keyboard, please let me know. I only have a semi-decent knowledge of keyboards.

I forgot to mention that if it could have good "electronica" synthesizers, that would be nice.

[Kanthos]

I've got a TR 61 and a Nord Stage. The Stage is way above what you'd want (as is its little brother, the Electro), but the TR would probably suit you. In general, workstation keyboards like the TR tend to be more performance-oriented, while arranger keyboards like the PA series tend to be for people trying to compose and arrange music using a hardware setup. An arranger keyboard might also be the way to go if you're only ever going to be playing in a one-man band and need backing tracks, though running an iPod through the sound system works for that too. Really, if you have to ask what an arranger keyboard is, odds are it's not for you. Also, since you want things like piano, you obviously don't want a synth (Korg Radias, various Moogs, and such).

The TR is a great keyboard for what you want, but you might want to consider the Korg M50 instead. The sound quality is much better - the M50 is a newer keyboard using a different audio engine than the TR, which uses Korg's Triton line. The M50 gets you more effects (even if you don't program them yourself, you'll notice the difference in the factory presets), and generally sounds better - the tradeoff is that you can't get a sampling upgrade (letting you use audio from other sources and play it back with the keyboard) or aftertouch (variations in sound coming from the pressure you keep on the keys after you first press them down), and of course, it's more expensive. Aftertouch isn't necessarily a dealbreaker; the M50 responds to aftertouch from other sources, so you could combine a cheap MIDI controller that sends aftertouch with the M50 and get the better sounds from the M50. Both are in your price range though, although you may have some trouble finding a TR in store since it's been discontinued for almost a year because the M50 is its replacement. Then again, stores do have old stock; my local music store had a TR on display last month.

As for other manufacturers, there are really only three others that make workstations. Yamaha's MO or MM series (similar; the MO is better) are within your price range, but Yamaha tends to be a bit better for acoustic instruments and a bit worse for electronic than Korg does, though the M50 may very well blow the MO out of the water on all counts. I've never been a fan of Roland's sound; if you're interested, one of their Juno lines would be in your price range. I have no experience with Kurzweil; they tend to be less common.

What I'd suggest is that you go to your local store and try out the Yamaha MO, Korg M50 and TR (and make sure to find a good synth patch that uses aftertouch, to get an idea for what it's used for and whether it matters to you), and the Roland Juno D and Juno Stage. Try out a number of sounds on each (ideally on the same set of headphones - bring your own if you've got a good pair), and talk with the sales staff about features. Poke around the user interface of each a bit and see if it seems easy to use. (IMO, all are good for the basics; Korg and Yamaha seem more intuitive to me for editing than Roland). In general though, you can't really get something that's dead simple: you don't have to think about effects or editing until you're ready (though if you're interested in electronica, you'll really need to learn synth programming and how to use effects), but you'd never want a keyboard that didn't have a good feature set, even if you don't use it. You might be surprised too - I use the sequencer mode on my TR for live playing instead of to record songs.

You've got a decent list of options now; try them out, because you're the only one who can really make that decision.

As for an amp, I'm going to give the same advice: once you've chosen a keyboard, get them to run it through a few different amps in your price range. Try a few different sounds, ones you'll commonly use, and see what you like. I've got a Roland KC 150, and to my ear, it was far superior than the Behringer and Peavey amps I tried when I bought it.



Lastly, performing with a laptop. I perform with both my keyboards and a laptop, but never fully trust the laptop. Both my keyboards talk to each other directly without going through the laptop, and I have a second copy of each preset so that if the laptop dies, I can switch to the keyboard-only versions, and while the quality of my orchestral sounds in particular will go down, I can at least keep playing. Maybe it's my setup (Dell laptop with Native Instruments Kore as the host and performance tool), but Kore seems a bit buggy at times, and I doubt it's the hardware - I know enough to keep everything in perfect condition and optimize it well for music. Anyway, you might have better luck with a Mac; all kinds of pro artists tour with Macs in their setup. Still, it's probably a good idea to not trust it fully and be able to play if anything goes wrong with the laptop: if your keyboard fails, there's nothing you can do, but if the laptop fails, you can at least keep going with the keyboard.

[Aevon]

Thank you so much for your help. One quick last question: What is your opinion on the Korg X 50? That was one other recommendation I got. I think the M50 might be more suited to my needs, but I'll ask you just in case...

It's looking like a Korg might be my answer... I will definitely check out the Yamaha though. As for amps, I will give Roland and Hammond a try.

Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate it. :D

[Kanthos]

Didn't know Hammond made amps.

Given your budget, don't bother with the X50. It's a scaled-down version of the TR - the sounds and effects are the same, but reading between the lines on Korg's website, it doesn't seem like it has a combi mode (multiple sounds layered or split across the keyboard) or a sequencer mode (you'll probably want to use your laptop for recording individual tracks for a song, but sequencer mode can be useful for live performance - it's what I use).

Also, on a lesser note, the X50 looks kind of dorky, in my opinion; the TR looks more 'pro', which may or may not matter to you.

[Aingeal]

I'm looking for a cheap synth or workstation (Arranger?) for my first keyboard, $500 is probably my max budget, I do have access to a copy of Reason since its owner no longer wants it.

So any recommendations?

[Sammy D]

I just but an Edirol PCR-800 for $299 on amazon. Was that a good deal?

[big giant circles]

Yeah, that sounds about right. Did you remember to use the OCR Amazon link? :)

[Aingeal]

I'm thinking on the Alesis Micron for my first 'board but I've heard mixed feelings on it, so what's the consensus here?

I do have Reason 4.0 so I'm wondering if I'd be better off going with a Axiom 61? Or even something like the WK-500?

Finally, is there any hands on word on the Novation Nocturn keyboards? If they want people to buy them without thinking because they look so awesome, I think they may have accomplished that. :razz:

[Aevon]

I just want to say thank you to everyone who helped me. I've decided on a keyboard: The Korg M3. So, unless you think I'm making a serious mistake, I'll call it a day.

Curiosity: Does any remixer here use a Korg M3, or something close to it, such as the Korg TR?

[Kanthos]

I don't remix, but I have a TR. If I'd had the money, I'd have definitely gotten the M3.