Final Fantasy 9 'You're Not Alone Vocal Mix'

[DragonAvenger]

I'm on my second year on this mix, and I swear it's never going to be finished, but I'm going to try. I wrote lyrics to You're Not Alone from Final Fantasy 9 some time ago for a friend going through tough times, and sadly since I've gotten an arrangement of it I've never been able to finish it to my liking.

Sadly, I know my voice isn't really suited for something like this (and yes, I'm almost certain everyone who posts here is going to say that), but it's my mix and I want to get it done as best as I can.

What I have hear is the first 'finalized' set of the main vocals here. There is harmony, and if you want to hear the old version, you can check out my website (signature) to see where this is going. No vocal effects have been added, because I'm asking peoples opinions on intonation and other tips on the vocals in general.

4-20 Update (http://dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 2007 4-20.mp3)
Take My Hopes and Dreams (http://media.putfile.com/Take-My-Hopes-and-Dreams-48)
Download here (dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My Hopes and Dreams 2007.mp3)
3-30-07 Update Download (dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 3-30.mp3)
4-5 Recording Up (dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 4-5.mp3)

Please, constructive criticism, and anything that might help me out here! Thanks!

[DragonAvenger]

Lyrics, for those who want them.

"I am so afraid,
Everyone I know runs away,
Walking into darkness and turning away from me.

I reach out for them,
Calling to them, wishing they'd come,
They don't even look back, they keep on walking away.

I'll turn my back too,
Reject those who've rejected me.
Take my hopes and dreams, turn them into my nightmares.

I'll walk to the dark,
Find my way out all by myself.
Forget all the rest, just have faith in no one but me.

And you're not alone! There's someone waiting there for you,
Right out before your eyes.
Put your trust in them, just as they put their trust in you,
Strengthening your resolve.

And you're not alone! You've got friends there to pull you through,
Fighting your demons strong.
Show them all your hopes, hold your dreams out for them to see,
Let them know who you are.

And you're not alone! There's someone waiting there for you,
Calling your name out loud.
Never turn your back, keep your arms open wide for them,
Keep them right at your side.

And you're not alone! You've got friends there to pull you through,
Standing right by your side.
Realize your hopes, bring your dreams to reality.
Always know who you are."

[Escariot]

`I `am so afraid,
Everyone I know runs away,
Walking into darkness and turning away from me.

`I reach out to them,
Calling to them, wishing they'd come,
They don't even look back, they keep on walking away.

`I'll turn my back too,
Reject those who've rejected `me.
Take my hopes `and dreams, turn them into my nightmares.

`I'll walk to the dark,
Find my way out all by myself.
Forget` all the rest, just have faith in no one but me.

And you're not `alone! There's someone waiting there for you,
Right out before your` eyes.
Put your trust in them, just as they put their trust in you,
Strengthening your res?olve.

And you're not alone! You've got friends there to pull you through,
Fighting your demons strong.
Show them all your hopes, hold your dreams out for them to see,
Let them know who you are.

And you're not alone! There's someone waiting there for you,
Calling your name out loud.
Never turn your back, keep your arms open wide for them,
Keep them right at your side.

And you're not alone! You've got friends there to pull you through,
Fighting your demons strong.
Realize your hopes, bring your dreams to reality.
Always know who you are.




Bold - Unnecessary Scooping
Italics - A little quiet. Either too quiet for the section, or the consonants don't come through clearly enough.
Underline - Sharp
` - Too much emphasis on the consonant or too much of a voiced vowel.
? - Something funny about the pronunciation at this point.

[avaris]

Well damn Escariot hit all the points on the vocals.

I just have something to add in general. This song really pushes the limits in terms of the octaves your voice can reach. Why don't you sing a full octave lower, and then take a copy of the vocals and transpose them up an octave. Then have both of them goin, you can automate between the two and apply different FX to get to some really cool variations. I don't if doubling the vocals with the higher vocals transposed up an octave will sound good or not but it's just an idea.

Another way would be to sing a lower octave then have a synth playing an octave higher. EFields might have to switch up some of the octaves where the instruments but overall this might make for a more well balanced song.

Overall I def like the lyrics the the embelishments and flow you put on them in different places.

[The Instrumental Light]

hello everybody, its been a while since i posted a review. anyway, some of the lyrics when sung sound out of tune, meaning in those parts it doesnt sound good. you need to work on perfecting the vocals. if you want a good example, listen to pixietrick's songs. also, until a little bit later, it was pretty repetitive, something that even in some of pixietrick's songs is a problem. as for the song other than the vocals, other than the repetitiveness of it in some parts, it was very good. keep on working on it. good job so far!:wink:

[227]

You said you haven't applied any effects to the vocals so I'll assume that something to bring the vocals all to the same volume is included in that. I think a good deal of the issues will disappear once the volume is (relatively) constant. The only thing I can really add to the things that have already been said is that you're delivering the vocals like...staccato. I usually see it happen when people aren't 100% comfortable in front of the microphone, but it could also be because you're trying to be clear with the vocals. At any rate, the bests parts of the song occur when things are flowing together fluidly. A staccato-like delivery typically sounds more forced and tends to throw off the pitch at the beginning of words.

Hmm, and you sound like you're a little too close to the microphone when recording. Might try giving yourself a few extra inches and see how it sounds.

[Syka]

I don't really have anything to add, but I must say that it's spooky how much you sound like my girlfriend.

Seriously.

[Dr. Rod]

I agree with the other posts as far as how the vocals sound....they do need a bit of refinement and mastering done. On the plus side though, the instrumental portion of this arrangement is kickin.......and I think u have a great structure to your arrangement.

[Villainelle]

Agreed with Avaris and Altus - it sounds both like you're straining outside your range, and the staccato delivery is awkward in many places.

But! The first two chorus sections that start "You're not alone" are much better and sound more natural, with the lower, smoother delivery. It still sounds like you're straining on highs there, so yeah, I think lowering by an octave in most places will help--also restricting the amount of high notes, and being more selective about which ones you keep: those you can hit with power instead of strain.

In general, there is a nasal and tense tone to the singing, which I think comes at least in part from straining outside your range. Try singing from lower in your chest, and perhaps as aforementioned at a lower pitch. That's just generic advice remembered from church choir many years ago, so please take it with a grain of salt. :D

To me, your pitch actually sounds pretty good for the most part--the only parts that stuck out are the very strained highs, and some of the dips towards the end.

Anyway, this has a lot of potential overall imo, but it's resting on your vocals. Find the spot where you can sing in a more relaxed way, which will let more of your strength and expressiveness come through. Right now when I'm listening to this I'm focusing on how tense you sound instead of the whole song itself, which makes listening uncomfortable. But again, there are parts where you seem to be singing more naturally, and those are great!

Keep at it, you definitely have the talent to pull this off. :D

[HoboKa]

You have a good voice, but it's sooo hard to get the right tone since this piece varies quite often...heck I'd think that the lead-singer for Evinescense would have to try quite a few times just to get it all on the right key. If you rly try hard then u can probably get it. That coming from a lazy butt who tries to be a writer/music composer, but can't organize himself to do so, is kinda ironic, but hey - I think u got what it takes :D

[227]

Evinescense

Pitch correction. If you had heard the live show that I did, you'd believe (and appreciate) it.

[Hal_Emmerich]

Not that I know much about vocals, but I don't think the scooping is unnecessary. I'm pretty sure thats following the melody of the song.

[DragonAvenger]

Updated with a full re-recording. Please check it out and comment. I didn't (couldn't) fix everything, though some of it was intentional, so that remained.

Thanks!

New Recording Downloadable here! (dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 3-30.mp3)

[Hal_Emmerich]

Maybe its just me, but this one doesn't seem to have the emotion the other one did. I can't quite tell what it is, but your voice seems weaker somehow.

[belovedchaos1]

WOW! Your not alone vocal!!!! I'm looking forward to that! *points to self grinning* I'm a big FF9 fan!!!

[Degree]

Although I don't really care for the original track that much, this remix feels like it's in the right direction.

It's good to see people getting creative with remixes.. adding vocals and the such.

Keep up the good work.

[Thin Crust]

The lyrics are great, but like many people have said, were a little off. You can do it, I see you have the talent. If done right, this definately should be put on the site.

Edit: Just thought I should say, I haven't been able to stop listening to it for two hours.

[DragonAvenger]

The lyrics are great, but like many people have said, were a little off. You can do it, I see you have the talent. If done right, this definately should be put on the site.

Edit: Just thought I should say, I haven't been able to stop listening to it for two hours.

That's great that you like it, but wait until it's finished until you listen so much! That way you'll really really enjoy it (hopefully!)

I have a chance to record on Thursday or Friday (or maybe both), but I'm unsure of what direction I should go in. The shorter version I originally did has more power, but the longer one probably sounds a little better. Anyone have suggestions on which I should use, and or if things need to be changed in them? Any comments are greatly appreciated.

[Thin Crust]

You may remember when I reviewed Summoner's Love, I said that if you try to force lyrics on to a game soundtrack without them origionally, the result won't be too good. Well forget it. The lyrics and your vocals mesh perfectly with the melody. This may even top over(do I dare say it?) DJPretzel's 'Town Life' which I think is the best vocal remix on the site.

[Kanthos]

I listened to the original version, but didn't comment on it at the time. Based on what I've heard of your singing (both WIPs here and material from your GooglePages site), here's what I have to say. I'm not a fantastic singer myself, so take my comments with a grain of salt. Also, none of this is meant to criticize in any way, but to help you.

Firstly, phrasing. I have a feeling that when you were singing this song, you were focusing on being clean: hitting all the pitches, having the right timing, clear diction, and so on. What you missed out on though is some of the more musical aspects of the melody and lyrics. The most noticeable is the number of interrupted phrases, places where it sounds like you're probably taking a breath when you don't need to or where you're just not singing legato enough (in my opinion anyway). Looking at the opening few lines, you have something like this (| signifies a break)

I | am | so afraid |
Everyone I know runs away |
Walking into dark | ness and turning away from me |
I | reach | out to them |
Calling to them, wishing they'd come, |
They don't even look | back | they keep on walking away. |

In my opinion, it would sound better if the only breaks were at the end of each phrase. Based on what I've heard of your music, you're not a strong, powerful singer; instead, your voice has a soothing, haunting quality to it. I'd think you'd do your best singing on more lyrical pieces; while your lyrics and the melody of this piece suit you, I'm not convinced that the instrumental part suits you as well as it could. It sounds a bit too upbeat and peppy given what you're doing with the melody.

I'd also suggest that you change the line "Calling to them, wishing they'd come" to "Calling to them, I wish they'd come", just because the phrase puts the accent on the second syllable of wishing, making the word wishing sound a bit rushed and unnatural.

Another tiny comment is that there's a buzz when you sing the words "demons strong" on one of the choruses.

Lastly, your dynamics don't vary a lot in most phrases. I've been told a couple times that any good jazz musician who wants to play standards should memorize the lyrics in addition to the chord changes and melody, because putting the right emotion into a tune makes a world of difference. You have some great lyrics here; I'd suggest you record a take focusing most on the lyrics and singing them musically.

I really like your voice. I think this mix has a lot of potential, and I hope some of what I said helps you. Good luck!

[Kaden]

I like this wip alot. hope it gets on the site and goodluck :)


~Kaden

[Thin Crust]

I
I'd also suggest that you change the line "Calling to them, wishing they'd come" to "Calling to them, I wish they'd come", just because the phrase puts the accent on the second syllable of wishing, making the word wishing sound a bit rushed and unnatural.


Is it me, or does it switch from first person to thrid person from time to time? At the beginning, it seemed that you were taking the role of Zidane, hence the, "Everyone I know runs away". But then comming from third person saying "but you're not alone, you've got friends". Just a thought.

[Kaden]

Is that a bad thing though Thin? I think it is good none the less.

also, maybe it is the person in first person, and then realizing and telling themselves, "you're not alone, you've got friends".

[DragonAvenger]

It was meant to be a sort of call and response thing, but it can be interpreted different ways.

[Escariot]

DA - Sorry about that... Didn't realize you'd be up this early to check it...
Analysis:
Well, as it was said before, it's quieter, and while you're paying attention to pitch, you're losing a lot of energy. Also, phrasing was mentioned, which is why the lyrics were hard to hear and write down unless given to me. There's still a minor pronunciation issue that is now more clear in this version.


0:34 - "intO" - Almost sounds like "ew". Almost sounds like two separate vowels the way you separate it. But that's the note change... You can't change sounds as you change pitch or it sounds like another word... At least not here...
0:38 - "mE" - Way too much "E". Try to keep your vowels well-formed. You can hear that your mouth widened when singing that.
1:23 - "I'll" - "All turn"?
2:43 - "Are" - Too much "AHHH"
2:59 - "OUt" - Because of the pitch, it sounds like "Ah oot loud". Again, refer to 0:34
3:10 - "kEEp" - Another "wide" E... Consistency is the key. Again, refer 0:38

Those are my major pronunciation beefs. And now onto pitch.

0:26 - "I" - Takes a while to get to the right pitch.
0:43 - "Calling" - Sounds SLIGHTLY sharp...
0:50 - "on" - Sharp
1:26 - "Reject" - The "ject" sounds a little higher than the rest of the word
1:30 - "Take" - Just sharp in general
1:36 - "Nightmares" - This one was really tough to pick out, but you need to remember to listen to the background music, and not continue in a key of your own. At this point, everything is a little off.
1:43 - "Forget" - Starts sharp
1:58 - "For" - Sharp
2:29 - "Demons Strong" - "mons" goes way sharp, and "strong" follows, not as high, but still sharp for the intended pitch.
2:59 - "Out Loud" - Sounds like your voice was really losing it around this point... No energy there, or even evidence of effort.
3:26 - "Your" - Seems to be the high notes in each of the phrases
3:30 - "Realize" - Again, the "al" of "realize" is not as low as it should be.
3:40 - "Are" - Not talking about the turn this time. But it takes a while for your voice and the background to match on the sustained note.

Oddly enough, you complain about this song being too high, yet your tendency is to sing a little over the pitch. Try to record smaller phrases, but more often... I'm not saying a track for each word, but where you can comfortably pick up, try doing each phrase separately and pick out the best of each. Also, you probably could have used the "OooOoooh" from the last track(s) on the end of this one.

Conclusion: A lot of the previous errors were fixed, but again, you lost a LOT of energy. It may have been the time of day that you were recording, I don't know. Either way, great job cleaning up most of it. Just a little more to go. The pronunciation issues are just consistency in the forming of your vowels.

[DragonAvenger]

4-5 Recording Up (dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 4-5.mp3)

So, I did another recording, and I think I'm liking this one much more than the previous two. Again, asking comments.

The stupid thing I did manage to do is save over the file with the last verse before I added it in, so it's not complete, but nearly so.

And for those of you asking, I will be adding in the last part (ohhhhs), I just haven't gotten to it yet.

Thanks for all your critiques!

[Thin Crust]

So you lost the previous version? Did I read that right? I have it downloaded if you need it, I could email the file if you ask.

[DragonAvenger]

Not the previous version, the part that I sang last night. The idea was to sing it all together so the volume would be the same as well as the 'mood' my voice was in.

Thank you though!

[sephfire]

Without the effects in play, it's hard to tell how well the vocals will mesh with the instrumentals. With some fancy reverb, delay, layering and such, it could work. I don't have much experience working vocals, so I'll let more qualified people comment on that. How the vocals end up sounding will make or break the mix though, so handle that with care. ;)

I might suggest adding a tad more depth to the instrumentals also. They get the job done, but they don't offer much else to the mix to keep it interesting.

[tweek]

The idea was to sing it all together so the volume would be the same as well as the 'mood' my voice was in.

Not to be nit-picky here, but singers, in studio situations, RARELY get a vocal track all in one take. I mentioned this in the Pokemon project, and I will say it again:

I can't express to you how important it is for you to break these phrases up so that you can accomplish the best possible tone and sound that you can. Not only will it make this MUCH easier for you, but it will also help you become a better singer, and here's why. I'm going to quote you again here:

The idea was to sing it all together so the volume would be the same as well as the 'mood' my voice was in.

It will teach you how to do THAT VERY THING for different takes. It will also teach you more about the compression process for vocals, since many, if not most, artists are compressed.

I defy anyone to show me a vocalist who is capable of nailing a song EVERYTIME in one take. Some of the editing that recording engineers do to a vox track to make it sound the best would blow your mind. At one point, I had to record a guy singing, and he did 4 different takes. After that, we had to go back in, line by line, and pick the best out of the 4. We cut and pasted the "best take."

Again, it's NOT uncommon to do and I HIGHLY encourage you to start. Take what's good, trash what's bad, and redo the parts that you trash.

[DragonAvenger]

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I've always recorded things in takes, usually a phrase or a sentence at a time. For example, in one of the verses I did 13 recordings of it before I felt I had enough material that I could get everything in tune.

What I wanted to do was get the whole song done in a sitting, as opposed to doing one verse one week and another the next week. Speaking of which, I should have an update tonight if my roommate has rehearsal like I think she does...

[HoboKa]

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I've always recorded things in takes, usually a phrase or a sentence at a time. For example, in one of the verses I did 13 recordings of it before I felt I had enough material that I could get everything in tune.

What I wanted to do was get the whole song done in a sitting, as opposed to doing one verse one week and another the next week. Speaking of which, I should have an update tonight if my roommate has rehearsal like I think she does...

sweet, I'm looking forward to it :D, good luck with the final version of it.

[tweek]

I've always recorded things in takes, usually a phrase or a sentence at a time. For example, in one of the verses I did 13 recordings of it before I felt I had enough material that I could get everything in tune.

What I wanted to do was get the whole song done in a sitting, as opposed to doing one verse one week and another the next week.

VERY glad to hear you already putting this into practice.

But don't be affraid to step back for a while and then return to it and approach the parts that are still iffy. It's not uncommon at all for vocalists to tackle a song several times which are days, weeks, and even months apart from each take. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" certainly applies here. If you have something good, there's no need to change it.

Like I said, keep what's good, and redo what needs to be worked on. The human voice is a fickle thing, but it is also one of the the most versatile instruments that, if trained and experienced, can do some amazing things.

[Kanthos]

I agree with Tweek's comments about making a recording. However, there's a lot to be said for singing the entire song all the way through. Obviously, you can't edit live performances; the audience hears what they hear and you can't change that. Plus, while editing vocal parts produces the "best" results, being able to do a track (or at least large parts of a track) in one take is a good skill to have.

[tweek]

Plus, while editing vocal parts produces the "best" results, being able to do a track (or at least large parts of a track) in one take is a good skill to have.

Absolutely!! However, it's one of those skills that develops over time and experience from the small takes and tracking little by little. It honestly does get easier and easier the more you perform in studio situations.

I think I'm just saying to make sure you aren't sacrificing quality in order to get it done in one take or in one sitting.

[DragonAvenger]

^Certainly not. The plan (hope) was to get a majority of it done well in one take while my voice was in the same mood, and then later on do the touch ups. I've had some recordings were I break apart the verses in days and the voice just doesn't have the same quality. I find it distracting, so I was hoping to get as much done as possible.

I did record last night, but haven't editted yet, so I'll check into that tomorrow. I don't think the results were very good though, so it might have to wait. *sigh*

[SnappleMan]

Oh lord, the singing in this is horrible. Sounds like a bad high school recital. My suggestion to you is to take the singing out. It sounds very faux-operatic, just doesn't work at all.

As far as the music goes, it's extremely overcompressed, and it sounds like cheesy karaoke. The arrangement is extremely repetitive and doesn't go anywhere. The drum sounds are pretty bad also.

Overall, it seems to me like this song needs a level of work that you're not capable of. I'm sorry to sound rude, but you are a poor singer. If I were you, I'd put this song on hold and take some lessons to try and develop a singing voice. You sound very nassally and generic, and your range is much lower than what you're attempting to sing.

Again, sorry this isn't what you want to hear, but the truth is, if you've been working on this song for 2 years and this is the result... you don't really have much hope unless you learn how to properly sing and arrange music.

Good luck!

[DragonAvenger]

Hi, thanks.

I sing for fun, and really don't care if you don't like my voice. Go listen to something else then.

Have a great day!

[SnappleMan]

Hah, no need to get angry. You wanted feedback, you got some you didn't want to hear. You can either be a child about it and dismiss what I said, or you can take me seriously and try to improve. If you want some detailed advice about what you can do, feel free to instant message me on AIM. I'd be more than happy to try and help you get this to sound okay.

[sephfire]

Regardless of voice quality, his analysis of the arrangment is right on.

[DragonAvenger]

Regardless of voice quality, his analysis of the arrangment is right on.

Yea, well, my friend wrote that in one weekend, and it was also within a week of getting the program. It works for me though.

[SnappleMan]

It seems to me that you have an excuse for anything negative said about your song... why not just look into improving those sections instead?

[tweek]

Yea, well, my friend wrote that in one weekend, and it was also within a week of getting the program.

Wait, I thought you meant that you did this arrangement.....

Are you just providing the vocals or is the track itself yours?

[DragonAvenger]

That's my fault, sorry about that. I should have been clearer in the first post. The track was written by Efields (then known as Georgasmaster). I commisioned him way back in '05 for it.

[DragonAvenger]

Another update, hopefully with near-finished vocals AND harmony.

Just melody (http://dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 2007 4-14.mp3)
With harmony added (http://dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take my 4-14 harmony.mp3)

I'd really appreciate some feedback on the harmony, because I'm not sure if it's too much in some spots, too little in others, etc.

Thanks!

[SnappleMan]

The harmonies actually help a bit, except when you go high, then it goes out of tune slightly and sounds forced. Also, the lyrics don't match the beat, and sound awkward.

[SSB]

I'll second the lyrics sounding awkward at times. The harmony works well at parts put just sounds awkward at others. There are still some slight intonation and scooping issues too. The entrance at 2:48 sounds really out of tune to me, too.

[chrono26]

this sounds a lot more solid. much more natural. you can really tell you've taken your time with the recordings. harmony sounds pretty good but i'd probably make it a little softer so that melody still stands out more. i think this has come a long way and will be done soon. kudos for being a good sport about all the feedback you're getting, whether its constructive or not :-)

[SnappleMan]

kudos for being a good sport about all the feedback you're getting

Ughh, dude, you have no idea how wrong that is...

[chrono26]

Ughh, dude, you have no idea how wrong that is...

well everything that you mentioned about the piece was already addressed by other people who gave feedback. you really havnt been any help at all. there's a right way to say something and a wrong. no need to tell someone that sings for fun and is making an effort to improve her singing that "she sucks" which is basically what you said.

[SnappleMan]

Your opinion about my feedback is irrelevant. I'm talking about her being a good sport. As soon as I started posting in this topic she sent me a PM telling me to stop cuz she didn't like what I was saying.

And quite honestly, feedback I give is equivalent to the quality of the song and the willingness of the artist to accept the opinion of someone who just might help improve them.

All I've heard have been excuses "well, it's just for fun" or "My friend made it 2,000 years ago". If the reasons for the song being bad are so trivial, then it should be easy to improve it. Or she can just admit that she's not capable of fixing some of the problems and then we can all start offering her real help that will improve her as a performer and musician. It's just a case of a shattered ego, and I don't like that one bit.

[Liontamer]

He's not tactful, but you can tell SnappleMan's not trying to be rude just for the hell of it. He'll say something really unconstructive, but then offer some legit advice and say something supportive. It's gruff, but it's not out of line, and he's offering (as usual) to give specific feedback. Andy's tough, but he's not trying to be discouraging. He wants to see improvement. He's just blunt. Ultimately, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Retlaf]

I can't help but think SnappleMan's opinion is due to the lack of vocal effects. None the less, it should be more than obvious that I disagree with him. I've been a huge fan of yours since our piano-vocal take of Dream Shore!

I don't think I can add anything that hasn't been addressed. The section that begins with "And you're not alone..." is certainly my favorite part. It wouldn't hurt to give a shot at the earlier sections with a lower octave; it might work out, it might not. As for the harmony, some places sound out of tune (as others have said), but it'll sound gorgeous when that's all fixed up. It'll be well worth it!

This is a beautiful track. Keep up the fantastic work!

PS. SnappleMan, she gave those excuses because of how rude you made your criticism sound. I'm sure you would feel offended if someone insulted your own work like that. Otherwise, you should not assume it wouldn't make someone else feel offended.

[tweek]

PS. SnappleMan, she gave those excuses because of how rude you made your criticism sound. I'm sure you would feel offended if someone insulted your own work like that. Otherwise, you should not assume it wouldn't make someone else feel offended.

Snapple was not only refering to her response to his post, but also several other posts by DA "excusing" some of the issues that other members have brought up.

He has also provided avenues for her to contact him for more specific input and directions to make the mix better. Whether she has taken them, I have no idea.

His post was candid. Keep in mind, he said something that many other people may have thought but just didn't want to vocalize. He may have done it in a manner that is taken as offensive, but he was simply blunt.

He has proven himself to have a good sense of proper sound and mixing from his experience. You would be foolish to simply pass his criticism up.

Also, there is a common saying for people who ask for advice, and I will quote it here for emphasis for everyone: "Don't ask for criticism if you can't handle what you will get in return."

[Fishy]

I can't help but think SnappleMan's opinion is due to the lack of vocal effects.

You can't really use that as a defense. If you look at the first post, she said she hasn't used effects at all because she's looking for vocal tips. If she was looking for critiques on her intonation and style, you can't say she hasn't got them.

I'm sure you would feel offended if someone insulted your own work like that. Otherwise, you should not assume it wouldn't make someone else feel offended.

Granted, Snapple is rude, he told me one of my mixes sounded like FL took a shit in his ears, but I took the risk of people telling me my stuff sucks by asking what people think. He did offer advice and help to me, and he did offer help to DA, so the most you can criticise snapple for is being a bit rude about it.

DA: You have lots of enthusiasm, and you have a potentially good singing voice, and I understand you just want to sing for fun, but whenever I want to do something for fun, I like to do it as well as i can. Your intonation needs a lot of work, and the best way to go about it would be get some lessons; even just some introductory lessons would help you a great deal. It's VERY rare to find someone who can sing in tune well, who hasn't had at least some basic lessons, just as I wouldn't expect to find many solid drummers who've never had lessons.

Sorry for dragging this out if you're uncomfortable about it.

[DragonAvenger]

Alright, I'm going to ask everyone to drop the issue, just because it's causing arguments and debates beyond the original posts and I don't feel like causing more internet drama than necessary. Liontamer already felt that he had to come in, and I don't want to bug more moderators (or anyone, really) over something as stupid as this.

Snappleman, or anyone, I would appreciate any comments on specific areas in the mix that need work on the harmony. Whether it's intonation (yes..."faith" I know, and some other areas, but point them out anyways. It might be obvious to you, but I might have missed it, I never had the greatest ears for intonation) or the harmony not quite fitting in right. If anyone want to email me some ideas on how to improve vocally in general, that would be great.

Fishy, your comment on doing the best you can is certainly valid to me too. Maybe people don't realize this, but right now, I AM trying the best I can on this. Blame it on excuses or whatnot, but I'm learning on my own, and I don't have money or time for lessons, which I would certianly love to do if I could.

As for the track itself, it's not gonna change. I know for a fact that Efields doesn't really want to revisit this one, so in a way I'm stuck with it. Personally I like it, but I know very little about the actual mixing and such, so what other people are commenting on is going right over my heads.* It was originally intended as a cover, which I again should have mentioned early on. That's my fault again.

So, again, let's drop the matter, start over again, whatever. Let's just put all the shit behind us, please.

*Of course...if someone wanted to make another mix for me....just kidding.

[SnappleMan]

The most prominent issue with the singing is that it's at a constant level of velocity and volume. The dynamic element is completely lost. If one were to translate the vocal track to a piano track, it would sound like single notes being hit by one finger as hard as possible. You should experiment with singing it softer, at first, then build up to a couple measures of your full voice, that way the ears don't get tired after the first lines.

The other (more important) issue is that of the lyrics themselves. The words you chose constantly break rhythm and really ruin the song. You really should consider re-writing the lyrics to match the natural beat values in the song. Considering most of the lyrics use alot of redundant or unnecessary words, this should be fairly simple.

[Kanthos]

With respect to the harmonies, there are two things you could improve on that I hear. One is that the arrangement mainly treats the piece like a lead vocal with background vocals in some places, but the mix treats the two voices as equivalent strength. Mixing your background vocal track in at a lower volume than the main will help a lot.

The other thing is that there are a few places where your harmonies just don't work. I'm at work and can't listen with enough focus to list them all, but places where the lines converge to unison in the middle of a phrase really don't work for the piece. The first place I can hear is the second harmony note you sing, at around 1:24. There are also a couple places where it sounds like your harmony line jumps from below to above the melody. If you have any training in counterpoint, I'd strongly suggest firing up a notation program and hammering out the harmony part in relation to the melody.

Another comment about the harmony is that when you sing "Fighting your demons strong" at 3:28 after you sing it in the main voice, you flatten the 7th of the scale on the second syllable of demons. Given that pretty much everything else you've done is in a harmonic minor mode (raised 7th), that one note sounds out of place.

My guess is that you improvised your harmony on top of the melody on the fly, instead of having a set harmony on paper or in your head before you sang it. Most of the time, I like how it works, except for the mix volume, but there are enough places where the harmony choice is notably out of style for the piece. I don't know whether you don't have much improv experience or just not on vocals, but while practicing improv works, for a final mix that you submit, I'd suggest having it written out, or at very least, thought out clearly in your head so that you're singing something you've worked out ahead of time. That will also let you focus more on the musicality of the arrangement instead of the improv (see my next point).

I agree with SnappleMan's comment (just not the way he expressed most of what he said :)) about the relatively flat dynamic level. Again, I think your focus was on pitch and clarity instead of musicality. You know the lyrics but don't really feel them and express them at an emotional level. I stand by my previous comments about the phrasing and choice of lyrics as well. You either don't know how to or just aren't singing in a really punchy, upbeat style. It sounds like you're taking a lyrical approach to the piece (which, from what I've heard of your other remixes and WIPs, is your strongest style and works really well for you) and are trying to sing in a more punchy style without fully understanding it.

Something else I just thought of with respect to lyrics (while listening to your Fisherman's Horizon piece, oddly enough): the melody has to fit the lyrics and the lyrics have to fit the melody. If the melody is causing you to emphasize the wrong part of a word (i.e. calling to them, wishING they'd come), you can change the lyrics but you can also change the melody. Don't be tied down to singing the exact melody from the game. You have the freedom to alter it to make it fit your song. This is a remix after all. Even listening to bands do live versions of their studio songs, it's the small alterations that make it worth listening to.

Good luck with this piece. I think you have something that can work if you approach the vocals in the right way, and maybe do a bit of cleanup on the remix (I know the mixer doesn't want to touch it again, but redoing just the drums might make a difference and wouldn't be that hard to do). You have talent, and when you find the right way to express it, you can get a lot of good mixes done.

[DragonAvenger]

Goddamn man, that's the best criticism I've gotten in weeks.

The harmony will most definately be brought down, I just didn't get around to dropping it before I exported to mp3. It's certainly pretty overpowering at times, and causes clipping at one point.

You're exactly right, the harmony was originally improved. And no, I don't really have much experiance in improv, whether singing or on my trumpet (shame, too, I always liked jazz). I will definately take the time to write them out and work with it.

Both yours and Snappleman's comments on the dynamics strike true, and I'll honestly admit that I didn't think and disreguarded volume. When I originally recorded I found it (still do, stupid quiet voice) difficult to bring my voice up over the volume, and when I finally could (maybe?) I most certainly got carried away with it. Perhaps a rerecord will be in order (square one....again, haha), though it's been a tiring journey on this song. I will get it done though.

As for the change of lyrics/melody, the lyrics most certainly have grown on me over the course of two years, and any time I've tried to change them I just can't seem to. Changing the melody...never occured to me. Just like dynamics. How silly(and stupid).

So I guess I have plenty of serious thinking to do on this mix. Oy, why can't things be simple, eh?

Thanks, again.

[Kanthos]

I've added you on AIM (if you don't mind). Feel free to bounce ideas off me if you like.

Yeah, maybe you have a long way to go with this. Welcome to remixing :) I've put a large number of hours into my Chrono Trigger Black Omen remix (currently up in the WIP section) and I've only got roughly half the piece done, and that's not counting any editing to make it sound realistic, the drum track, and some cleanup of rhythms and notes.

Not that I'm any kind of pro (for that matter, you should be giving me advice since you've got two posted mixes plus a bunch of other mixes on your site) but what I've found so far is that having too many musical options can be distracting. If you're not used to singing songs and altering the melodies, for example, I wouldn't do it, at least not without writing it out, since it'll be another thing that gets in the way of the perfect recording you're going for. That's why I suggested writing out all the harmony. Kudos to those who can get good takes on the first or second try (I can't; the flute solo on my WIP is the result of over 30 consecutive takes and still needs some note editing), but if you improv harmony all the way through and aren't comfortable with doing so, you'll sacrifice musicality since you're too focused on the improv. Good luck!

[DragonAvenger]

Here's to trying something new (http://dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 2007 4-17.mp3)

Well, this is the "testing the waters" recording. It's rough (oh, intonation I miss you), so a warning to all. Attempted some changes in melody, some changes in harmony, quieter intro section.

The first set of harmony needs work. That I most certianly know.

Thoughts?

[DragonAvenger]

Melody changes only (http://dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 2007 4-18.mp3)
With Harmony Added (http://dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 2007 4-18 harmony.mp3)

April vacation has been a blessing in getting work on this done. Here is the first four verses with reworking. Opinions on any part of it are appreciated. The file cuts off after the last verse is sung, so yes, it probably did download all the way.

I didn't do anything in terms of lessening the volume of the harmony. I'll worry more about that later.

[Escariot]

0:00 - 0:25 - Perfect intonation and pronunciation
0:31 - Not sure if I like "know".
0:38 - "Me" still sounds a little bit wide. And the whole thing sounds a bit breathy
0:49 - "Back" sounds like "Mack"


- Interlude -
1:33 - "Into" in the harmony sounds a bit off...
1:43 - "Forget" is a little pushed in the melody
1:47 - AGH! *orgasm* Love the triplet
2:05 - I like the note choice in the harmony
2:30 - Again, nice note choice.


Overall: Your pitch accuracy has improved, your pronunciation has improved, your tone quality is much improved. I don't foresee you needing to do too many more recordings before this can be submitted.

[SnappleMan]

Submitting this, nomatter the quality of the singing, will get a no. I can promise you that. The music is not up to OCR standards, and again, the lyrics break rhythm so much that it will never sound like one full song.

That's overall problem, I think. It SOUNDS like you just singing over some music, your voice does not work as an instrument in the song.

[Retlaf]

Nice work, this is an incredible improvement! Whatever you're doing, keep it up. "Take my hopes and dreams" was a pleasure for the ears. The harmony is a lot more fluid, too.

I have to admit that in regards to submitting this, the track would need a boost. In terms of your voice fitting in as an instrument (which I agree with), either effects on the vocals or a more 'fitting' track (or both) will help. I'm not saying the current track doesn't work.. I'm just saying the judges will listen to it with high standards.

[Kanthos]

Submitting this, nomatter the quality of the singing, will get a no. I can promise you that. The music is not up to OCR standards, and again, the lyrics break rhythm so much that it will never sound like one full song.

That's overall problem, I think. It SOUNDS like you just singing over some music, your voice does not work as an instrument in the song.

What would you suggest is needed to improve the quality of the music? What makes you think she sounds like she's singing over the music as opposed to singing with the music? In other words, besides phrasing, what needs to be done to make this OCR-worthy?

[Escariot]

Submitting this, nomatter the quality of the singing, will get a no. I can promise you that. The music is not up to OCR standards, and again, the lyrics break rhythm so much that it will never sound like one full song.

That's overall problem, I think. It SOUNDS like you just singing over some music, your voice does not work as an instrument in the song.
So... This is what people are talking about... About you being an asshole... You do provide legitimate feedback, but never provide a way to improve...

[sephfire]

That's overall problem, I think. It SOUNDS like you just singing over some music, your voice does not work as an instrument in the song.

That's actually the problem I've been trying to put my finger on ever since I heard it first. Thank you, Snapple, for finally putting it into words.

The way I'm seeing it, there's a roadblock in the way of this track. Either the vocals or the arrangement underneath them have to be the focus of this mix, and neither of them are ready to do it. As you've said, you're only a hobbiest singer and no one can fault you for that. We're all novices trying to improve and have fun. Unfortunately, nice as your voice may be and as much potential as it may have, it can't carry a mix the way a trained voice can.

Again, I can't fault you much on the voice because improving it would be costly and time-consuming. However, the arrangement underneath is still weak, and that is much easier to fix. If the original composer isn't interested in reworking it, I advise you find another remixer who is. The dynamics are weak, the percussion is flat and the synths are boring. I think the instrumentals beneath your voice are holding this mix back more than anything else, and I strongly suggest you consider changing or replacing it however possible. Otherwise, this is definitely destined for a NO.


Edit:
Escariot, he has offered many suggestions for improvement in this thread so far, as well, as offering additional help via PM. Harsh, blunt critiques aren't fun, but they tend to be the most helpful. Honestly, it would be nice to see more bluntness in this forum sometimes.

[avaris]

DA the vocals on the newest version sound much improved.

I remembering you saying before that efields won't be touching the background again. So if your wanting to stick with what you got and want to try and get this posted here IMO are the options you got:

Have someone add lots of xtra rythms and ear candy to the background. Lots of ping pong panning. This song needs to take make full usage of the stereo field, currently it doesn't.

Do some crazy FX and processing on the vocals. Prob do the 1 dry and 1-3 insanely wet vocal track trick. Lots of automation with delays, vocoding, gated reverbs the whole lot.

Have one part of the vocals sidechained to the beat of the drums to create a pumping effect in the vocals. This will create more energy and help tie the vocals and the background together.

Also the mastering on the entire track would need to be very well done to give the whole song a much thicker feel. Kudos on really proggressing this far in all the vocal work on this track.

[SwordBreaker]

Submitting this, nomatter the quality of the singing, will get a no. I can promise you that. The music is not up to OCR standards, and again, the lyrics break rhythm so much that it will never sound like one full song.

That's overall problem, I think. It SOUNDS like you just singing over some music, your voice does not work as an instrument in the song.


Quick note before I reply; I've been checking out this thread constantly, yet I haven't critiqued because it's not my place to. On the contrary, I'm actually learning a thing or two from this thread since I'm also trying to make my singing work with ReMixes and whatnot.

The thing which interests me in Snapple's comment is that I've gotten a similar comment back in my OCR Vocal Remix Competition Submission (Round 2). Anyway, DA's work with this remix reminds me of her "Summoner's Love" WIP, now submitted in OCR after much tweaking on the vocals. The singing in both WIPs has pretty much the same feeling of just being "placed over the music" and "not working as an instrument in the song" as you've put it, Snapple. But the full version of Summoner's Love, while not my favorite vocal song in OCR and does have a few weak spots, works quite well and feels somewhat catchy..sounds A LOT better than its WIP version...

Bottom line, we know that DA has not placed any effects or major production values on her voice yet. I think that's the reason why her singing feels placed over the song instead of being "integral" to the song. Sure, the strength of her voice could play a role, yet in my view production values are a lot more important, and DA herself proved that good production values can compensate for any "vocal weaknesses" if present. Also, not everybody can be a Pixietricks or a Star Salzman in terms of singing talent. That OCR Vocal Compo actually made me feel that way, even though I placed last (due to being a n00b perhaps).

I also think that the judges will think the same way. I remember being surprised when they rejected Darangen's incredibly cool "Rest Tonight" from Dwelling of Duels and accepting DA's "Summoner's Love". No offence to DA, though. It's just that the former song is SO awesome. Production values could've played a role in these desicions. Yet, that still doesn't make DA in the clear. As most of the comments have pointed out, DA still needs to need to find the best way for her singing to fit the track. I know that it would've been much easier to make up the singing as Efields was working on the track, yet you can't turn back time.

[SnappleMan]

So... This is what people are talking about... About you being an asshole... You do provide legitimate feedback, but never provide a way to improve...

And what exactly was the point of this post?

[chrono26]

ok no arguing in the thread.

DA, i dont think it would be a bad idea to have someone redo the track. they could keep the same style and basic arrangement if you want them too. and you could still give efields credit as a remixer.

[227]

DA, i dont think it would be a bad idea to have someone redo the track. they could keep the same style and basic arrangement if you want them too. and you could still give efields credit as a remixer.

Basic arrangement sure, but it shouldn't be the same style. It's her decision, but I think DA should provide a link to the vocal track when she's happy with it and let a few different people try to rework the song around it in whatever genre they want. That would be interesting, to say the least. Might end up with something amazing in a style she wouldn't have considered otherwise.

[DragonAvenger]

If someone wants to do any sort of arrangement, I would be honored. Usually any requests I've made have fallen on deaf ears, so I'm generally in the position that if I have any sort of arrangement, it's better than nothing. If anyone's interested, PM me.

As it is, I'm still going to finish this one since as I'm almost done. Here's an update with the last two verses and the ending. At this point all I have is touch-ups.

Update (http://dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 2007 4-19.mp3)

[DragonAvenger]

This is the last update. I hope. If no one points anything out, I'm going to send the vocals over to someone to get them processed.

4-20 Update (http://dragonavenger.escariot.net/Take My 2007 4-20.mp3)

[Blackwinged Saron]

this last mix is great, i don't know what to tell you about the vocals. they are phenomenal, the lyrics are great, and you have a wonderful voice. their is still something eerily awkward about the whole mix though. It's not bad by any means. Just different. Actually after writing that, I realized that's exactly why I like it. It's the perfect remix of a thoughoughly amazing piece of music. I say it's ready for its final runthrough. I hope it gets on here. Good luck.

[StarBLaSt]

Dont listen to these amateurs! They are focusing on the wrong stuff.

If you want help, aim me. ---> SuperStarBLaSt

[SnappleMan]

The first good thing to happen to this thread since page 1!

Listen to StarBlast, he's not half bad (not half good either).

[HoboKa]

And likewise, don't listen to these "elitists", IDC if this makes it onto OC, its already burnt onto 1 of my new OC remix CD's so :P to u lamers who don't like her song.

[SnappleMan]

Elitists? You mean those of us who know something about music? :D

[HoboKa]

lol. Yes. Although I'm trying to make my own music, so I know a little bit about it too. So :P

[Kholdstare]

Umm well, Hai!

DragonAvenger, whom I've worked with on other mixes, contacted me about this mix a couple weeks back asking if I could help on the vocal processing. I said yes. So I tried playing around with it a bit, catchy tune I might add. I wanted to post this hear to get your reaction to it to see how it's coming along. I'm not sure about the flanger on the first verse, nor is DA sure about the difference in echoes between the first verse and the rest of em.
SO let us know what you think, your feedback is much appreciated.


http://kholdstare13.googlepages.com/fl6hopesanddreams_9.mp3

~Kholdstare

[avaris]

The first verse with the flanger sounds off. The timing of the effect feels really off. IMO I'd use a vocoder on that first verse. Prob vocode the the vocal from 3:46 and on too.

The high end on the vocals feels a lil dry throughout the song. Some more noticeable delay on parts of the vocals to emphasize certain words would go really well.

The doubled vocals really add some nice variation to the mix.

[Tensei]

While the vocals are generally pleasant, It might be a good idea to add some (more) reverb to have them blend with the mix a bit better, and maybe play around a bit more with the panorama settings, especially at the doubled parts.

Also, I think this needs an instrumental solo at some point, because apart from the vocals there isn't really any development throughout the mix, the instrumentation tends to become quite cut+paste, and I think some kind of rad electric guitar solo would totally put this mix over the top (though a piano, synth, or even a violin solo would work great as well).

[Mae]

You are Not Alone! is definitely begging for lyrics. I started writing some (not so good ones) myself a few years ago, but yours are definitely better.

The first verse seems a lot choppier than the rest of the singing. Not sure if that's intentional or not, but it seems like it could flow a little better if you smoothed out that very beginning. I suppose it could be intentional, since the original and mix have a sort of choppier start.

Two examples of how vocals might sound smoothed out.
First verse smoothed out, in my natural singing voice, a bit lower than yours (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=G8TSL81L)
First verse, just smoothed out, in my higher voice (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JXOPKB78)

I'll be looking forward to hearing your finished product.

[Kholdstare]

Alright, I've taken a look at these suggestions and can definitely see them put into place. Part of these ideas were swimming in my head as i posted this but i wanted to get it out there. So.. I'll take to looking at the mix and implementing stuffs.

Thanks for the help,

~Kholdstare

[idir]

BRAVO ! Excellent !
I love , i'm french and i love the sound of the voice !
This song is beautiful with this sympatic lyric !!
I found of this Single !!

[idir]

So we haven't got no more information from this job ?
I'm really to know this project is Stopped.
Bad News.

[DragonAvenger]

Wow, talk about back from the dead!

Honestly, this piece is pretty much dead. It's not good how it is, needs a different style. I'd have to rerecord the vocals. No one's interested it seems. Maybe someday, but until I get a better backing, nothing's happening to it. Sorry to dissapoint.

[HoboKa]

what? noooooooooo! I demand a re-attempt, at least T_T

[Mae]

Thanks to idir for bumping this thread. I figured this remix would have been in full production by now. (I've been lazy with checking out the site overall. I figured I may have even missed it being posted).

You already put in the effort to write the lyrics, and asked for feedback on them. Why not at least give it another shot?

You say no one is interested? Do you need someone to help with the music? Or do you think that even if you did finish it up, nobody would be interested in listening (even though there's still a few of us chiming in again now that this thread has been temporarily revived)?

If you need someone to help with the music - give the lyrics another shot. Get them to sound pretty dang good, and then spam some inboxes, lol!

I've actually kind of started to associate the original music of You Are Not Alone! with the lyrics you wrote. I'd like to hear a finished version.

[Megshin]

Well I still have all the old WIPs and you can't stop me from enjoying them on my iPod! ;) Till the day the finished is done!