[Phonetic Hero]

Originally Posted by Sauraen

My earlier posts complaining about how Sibelius would not do automation from before the most recent version of the remix were not entirely informed. True, Sibelius cannot automate VST parameter channels. However, I not only have access to the velocities of individual notes, I have access to any arbitrary MIDI data I want to include.

Oh, DUH, I knew that... I've written shitloads of drumline music in Sibelius. That writing knowledge seemed to have run off to a far corner of my brain. Oops!

Originally Posted by Sauraen

*ahem* I run Windows. I have used Finale before, and in my opinion Sibelius is basically nothing more than the generally better-designed and more-intuitive equivalent. :P But your point still stands that I need a DAW, not a notation program.

I'll give you that... Finale is one of the worst designed and most clumsy programs I've ever had the displeasure of... well, buying. And as such, it's my only means of scoring, and so the only program that I'm really experienced with.

Originally Posted by Sauraen

Hmmm, I wonder what DAW you use? :P

I've used LMMS, which is supposed to have the same interface as FL Studio, and I found it to be underpowered, clumsy, and unprofessional. Piano-roll note input seems so 1995 when I could be writing music on a score; selecting between velocities of simultaneous notes is a pain; and drawing automation curves is so difficult that I wasn't even sure it was working until I saw the knobs moving. These problems may just be with LMMS and not with FL Studio, I don't know. (If there's some trial version, I'll certainly check it out.) But most importantly, my composing tends not to be of electronic-sounding music--I rarely use anything that could be called a "loop", which is in the name of FL Studio. I feel that it is essential that the DAW I wind up with allows me to write on a score.

I looked up LMMS, it looked similar but I can't be sure without actually getting in there and trying it out for myself. I'm pretty sure there IS a free demo version of FL (which was just rated #1 DAW by Synthtopia, so you bet I'm a proud FL user :D ), so get in there and check it out if you want, or don't and keep your eyes peeled for something else. I'm honestly not really sure about other Windows DAWs. I've heard things about Acid and Reaper, but never really used either for myself, so I couldn't tell you. I could put you in contact with people who use both though, if you so desire. I really am quite surprised with how well you're doing in Sibelius, which makes me more anxious to see what you'd do with a full power sum'bitch :D

[Sauraen]

Originally Posted by Phonetic Hero

I'm pretty sure there IS a free demo version of FL

I just downloaded the demo. I was also looking into ProTools, because it uses Sibelius as its notation editor, but the price tag discouraged me there.

First, I just wanted to say it feels a little weird to see a song by zircon and pixietricks as one of the demos, even though I knew their work was going to be in it. It's even more strange that all the things I can hear in the music are supposed to be right before my eyes, and I have no idea how what I see is making what I hear.

Second, the interface is much better than LMMS--I can see what LMMS is trying to copy, but it's not even close. It appears that you can even edit the song while it's playing, which is something I've never seen in any program before, though I'm not entirely sure why you would want to do that.

But I think the biggest thing is that it feels completely and absolutely foreign to me. It appears to be designed for a sort of music that has lots of exact repetition in the inner voices, and music that heavily uses samples and synthesizers. There is an editor that seems to be dedicated solely to one-measure long patterns like a hardware sequencer, but no editor that will display those notes on a staff. I don't think I've ever written a piece where that pattern editor would have helped me; for instance, in my remix, the drums are varied enough so that the whole thing only repeats every 16 measures. In short, it seems that making the kind of music I do in FL would be about as contrary to its purpose as making electronic music in Sibelius. To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with electronic music, and I've been listening to OC ReMix for two years, which seems to be predominantly music of this type; it's just not the kind of music I know how to write.

That said, FL is obviously a powerful DAW, and if I had it I would certainly do the final stages of production of a piece in it. But it doesn't seem to be exactly what I'm looking for. Have you heard talk of any software that is more focused on sequencing for high-quality virtual instruments? For instance, when film composers buy big sound sets like the CCC or the Vienna libraries, what programs do they use to edit and produce those pieces?

[Phonetic Hero]

Originally Posted by Sauraen

I think the biggest thing is that it feels completely and absolutely foreign to me. It appears to be designed for a sort of music that has lots of exact repetition in the inner voices, and music that heavily uses samples and synthesizers. There is an editor that seems to be dedicated solely to one-measure long patterns like a hardware sequencer, but no editor that will display those notes on a staff. I don't think I've ever written a piece where that pattern editor would have helped me; for instance, in my remix, the drums are varied enough so that the whole thing only repeats every 16 measures. In short, it seems that making the kind of music I do in FL would be about as contrary to its purpose as making electronic music in Sibelius. To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with electronic music, and I've been listening to OC ReMix for two years, which seems to be predominantly music of this type; it's just not the kind of music I know how to write.

That said, FL is obviously a powerful DAW, and if I had it I would certainly do the final stages of production of a piece in it. But it doesn't seem to be exactly what I'm looking for. Have you heard talk of any software that is more focused on sequencing for high-quality virtual instruments? For instance, when film composers buy big sound sets like the CCC or the Vienna libraries, what programs do they use to edit and produce those pieces?

I know exactly how you feel, I used to do a hell of a lot with more orchestral stuff (actually marching instrumentation quite a bit), so when I opened FL for the first time I was like, "this is stupid, there's no staff, and it's all loop based... no REAL musician would use this." But as I got more familiar with it, it became much easier to navigate. I still use a lot of high power organic samples in my work (I actually just bought Native Instruments' West African instrument soundpack, and am eagerly awaiting the download at work :P ). You can import sound libraries by putting whatever you need into the plug-in folder within the FL folder, and then scan for new plug-ins in FL itself.

As for the "loop"/pattern based stuff, you don't need to be constricted to one bar. It sounds like you're talking about the sequencer on the left, which I really only use for percussive stuff and drum programming, and even then, I end up using the piano roll for velocities and stuff. If you right click on the instrument in the sequencer window, you can open the piano roll, in which you can do all your pitch-based work and alter velocities and a bunch of other fun stuff (and go for as many measures as you want). I've heard of people doing all of their work in a single pattern, meaning all the instruments would be in one track in the playlist for the whole piece. I've also heard of people making completely new patterns for literally everything in the song and ending up with about 150 of them. I personally write what I need as I need it, with one instrument per pattern (sometimes more, for chord work and stuff), and then if there's something that repeats, just put the pattern where it belongs in order to repeat properly. There's really a lot of freedom in how you compose, and I wouldn't write FL off just yet ;)

EDIT: And with film composition, there are other DAWs that people use, Nuendo, Cubase, Pro Tools, even Logic and FL have their place in film composition. Really, it's just whatever works best for the composer, whatever their personal taste may be. I personally don't like Logic or Reason, I've used both and they just seem too unintuitive to me, and the automation is nowhere NEAR as precise and easy to use as it is in FL. I've never used Cubase or Nuendo, though I've heard great things about both. Sonor is another one to look into, though again I've never used it personally. If you've ever heard how fucking awesome Vurez's organic instrumentation is, he's a Cubase user, for reference. BGC and zircon both do amazing work in FL. I don't see any reason why you can't do great sequencing in FL or Logic or Reason or WHATEVER if you have the know-how and the sample power. This is the part where I come back to preference. It's all about what you're comfortable using

And hey, to your credit, I just found out that James Horner (composer for Avatar, Titanic, etc.) uses Sibelius to compose and then exports the MIDI to Pro Tools to dick around with. So there's that

[Sauraen]

I don't know... I've been trying to figure out FL and I can't seem to do a bunch of really simple things: see a list of what instruments are running, see a list of what patterns exist, get ANYTHING (instruments, patterns, audio from file, automation graphs) to go in a track, connect the audio output of anything to anything (e.g. the output of a track to the input of an effect, and the output of the effect to Master), automate anything that's not a knob (e.g. MIDI data to send to a virtual instrument; the help file seems to indicate this is not supported). Obviously I'm missing a few big things, because clearly these are things that have been done in the demo songs. Is there some tutorial you would suggest?

Originally Posted by Phonetic Hero

the automation is nowhere NEAR as precise and easy to use as it is in FL

I've used Sonar on a friend's computer, and it seemed a lot easier to pick up than FL, though it was tedious in some places where FL seems smooth. I'll grant you that editing automation curves in the demo songs of FL was much easier than in Sonar; but creating and connecting them, or even seeing where they were connected to, seems much harder. When I right-click on the automation graph's title bar, in hopes of selecting "Open wiring dialog" or something, that deletes it!

Looked up Nuendo. $1800? Next please.

Originally Posted by Phonetic Hero

I don't see any reason why you can't do great sequencing in FL or Logic or Reason or WHATEVER if you have the know-how and the sample power.

Yeah, I guess I should just keep downloading demo versions of these programs and trying them until I find one where everything works how I would expect it to.

Originally Posted by Phonetic Hero

And hey, to your credit, I just found out that James Horner (composer for Avatar, Titanic, etc.) uses Sibelius to compose and then exports the MIDI to Pro Tools to dick around with. So there's that

Yeah. I knew about that. That's one of the reasons I was considering Pro Tools.

[Sauraen]

Here's the most recent version:

http://soundcloud.com/sauraen/melodi...be-village-3-5

Thanks for your feedback!

[OA]

This is sounding pretty solid! A few minor things I think would improve it. One, a suspended cymbal lead into the drums would help them not be as surprising of an entrance when they come in the first time. Most of the articulations sound pretty good, though some of the faster ones like the passage at 1:57 could have a little harder of an attack. The guitar arpeggios at 2:09 should be a little more humanized. They have a little bit of variation, but they should have even more. A stronger velocity downbeat with lighter top notes, or a lighter downbeat with an accent in one of the other three, but of the 4 notes in the arpeggio, one should have an accent. Speaking of 2:09, it feels a little empty, and could use more cello/low strings to fill out a bit. you don't need to add any extra texture, just double some violin stuff down an octave and see how that sounds.

I enjoyed the nostalgic RPG sounding drum parts a lot, and i think the beat variety was good, but I feel a few additional fills sprinkled throughout would improve the song. THe one fill at 4:27 was exciting, and while not all of them have to be that amped, having some more would be good. The drums at the end definitely felt the most inspired, and I feel the end section was really working, though the horn attack is way too slow. You'll definitely need to adjust that; I can promise Larry would NO this just based on that (probably Deia too).


Overall this is feeling much better to me, and I hope to hear a finished and polished version in the inbox soon!

[Sauraen]

It's been a LONG time, but here's an updated version. I'm much happier with the mastering. Think I should submit it?

https://soundcloud.com/sauraen/melod...be-village-3-8

[timaeus222]

The harmonies are well-planned. I like how the flute goes into focus at 0:52 while the piano goes into the background a little. It's not overdone. 1:19 sounds a little weird harmonically though. You went from a diminished chord with an A base to a first inversion m7 chord with a G base. It could sound right, but I think you should try bringing that D# down to a D just to hear how it sounds before going with either one.

1:28 is where it gets iffy. The drums are a bit quiet. Yeah, in an orchestra they're farthest away, but even so, they're slightly too quiet, mainly the cymbal (most evident at 3:21). Also, the kick rhythm is a bit awkward in this musical style. It makes the drums feel separate from the song overall. I've never seen an acoustic drumkit in an orchestra before. It could still work, but the drums should be a tad less buried, and leaning less towards a dramatic rock style, as it doesn't seem like the rest of the instrumentation conveys that.

2:02 needs more stereo separation and more EQ work on that guitar. I could barely hear the strums. 4:25 was a bit strange to me, and again, that makes this less of a traditional orchestral song. The limiter might also be pushed a bit too much. You can really hear that at 4:46. Think of it this way: Can you give this song to anyone in the entire world who has the same materials you have and as much experience as needed to recompose this song from scratch, leave them alone to do it, and trust that they'll succeed without much hassle? If you can say yes, then the mixing is good enough.

Right now, it's about 85% there.