[Brandon Strader]

Originally Posted by Liontamer

Some hated the rejections and sometimes those people hated us. But they all weren't discouraged.

Our hate for you is what kept us going, to prove you wrong.

I got a lot of NO's between 2001 and now, but over the last couple years is the only time I started following up and fixing NO's and sending stuff back in. I still get the occasional "NO" but the staff can feel confident that I will be right back in their face with a RESUB pretty swiftly. But I did have a lot of NO's and I did get angry and I think I once told Larry that his suggestions "weren't fair"...

But if you listen to people like Larry, Stevo, and OA, you'll improve a lot and start getting those mixes past. It's ironic that the mix I made in only a couple hours, Ethnic Rush, was the mix of mine that finally passed after years and years of trying. The post order doesn't accurately reflect that, but.... it's true. Ethnic Rush #1!

[therex]

Originally Posted by Level 99

Those people that don't have to try very hard to get there already either have been doing things to get to that point, or are just naturally very gifted folks.

You want my honest answer to what you're asking? First, let me just make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. You think that the system we have in place for getting the skills and advertising your work isn't at the point where it can be the only thing to do in order to increase presence/musical ability/etc., so you want to know what else needs to be done for people to start getting that leg up that other folks around here who are more "established" (i really hate that word, i would just call them familiar faces) seem to have. Just tell me if that's the gist of what you're asking.

Because if that is, then I can say from my experience the best thing to do is to start conversations with folks who do give you feedback, or chat around in the ocremix IRC and start making some friends and contacts there. Most of the folks I consider to be friends from this site started either as collaborators on mixes or as people who I sought to give feedback on my stuff. You may have noticed that there's a somewhat disproportionate ratio of creators/listeners in both the workshop area and the ReMix area. generally you will find more people creating the work and seeking feedback than giving feedback on created works. Its unfortunate that due to more people exercising their creativity and talent that as a result, it seems less people take the time to listen to others and to comment. If you're posting things and people are glossing them over, go out and seek the feedback from folks. There's usually a few people around the IRC who are willing to listen to whatever, or even just make general chit-chat. Start talking to people and make social ties, you'll find the people who are willing to give you feedback on the side will increase.

It's impossible to rely entirely on the workshop area. It has a purpose and it does serve as a good tool but it definitely shouldn't and, in all likelihood, can't serve as the only source of critiquing. Post on youtube, newgrounds, irc like i said, wherever you can find people who will listen, go there. And I said five years because sometimes people take a long time to learn or make those ties to start building a system of feedback in order to improve.

The way you worded your post, I can tell there's a lot of frustration there. If I may give some advice that contradicts your position, I would say look at the limitations not as a source of frustration but as a challenge to overcome. Look at what the limitations of the sound chip for the NES has resulted in: creativity flourishes where hardware and software restrain. There's a huge amount of free things available and while there is definitely a distinct advantage to having expensive samples and synths, its not the be-all end-all of making music. Its sort-of the difference between using a regular screwdriver and a power tool: they both can be used to the same ends, one just takes longer with more effort to put into it to get there.

Also it is most definitely not proven that more "established" mixers get preferred posting for obscurer tunes. OCR celebrates all VGM, from the most well-known to the most obscure regardless of who's making it. If its a good VGM arrangement, its a good VGM arrangement.

Finally, I do get your frustration. I completely understand where you're coming from. I was there, as I mentioned previously, for five years. That's a long time to be potentially frustrated. The way you're phrasing things is that you're voicing what others have experience and are possibly saying. You asked where you're going to get help for this, and I can only say that beyond what's already available and what I've already said, turn to your peers. People come to OC ReMix in waves, so finding other people who are at your skill level or more and starting a dialog or connection for critiquing is probably one of the best ways that you AND others can grow musically.

I hope I have not further frustrated you with my response, and I hope what you're feeling now passes quickly and you can get back to making arrangements of obscure vgm

I'd just like to add some stuff from a n00bs point of view (at least I think I'm still a n00b).

1) One of the best ways of getting feedback is to give feedback. When you comment on someone's track, they see your name, and they are more likely to comment on your track in kind.

2) Not Having stuff can be a good thing. I used the demo of FL10 for about 8 months until I could buy it. Aside from the weirdly fast writing skills I gained from trying to finish mixes before someone would turn off my computer, I also learned that the software doesn't matter (for the most part). Use this time to really dig deep into the basics of sound design; learn a lot now so that when you eventually can buy stuff you'll know how it works.

3) Read and learn. I already mentioned it in my previous point, but zircon and rozovian both have some really sweet mixing guides. Past that, read the FL manual, and then google anything you don't understand. Knowing is half the battle!

Anyway, don't be discouraged. Chill in IRC (I'm there almost all the time), post around the forums and get to know some people. You'll find yourself learning faster than you think.

[Rozovian]

Troix, you've been registered here for a couple of months, you've posted two remixes and one original, commented on four remix wips by other ppl... that's not a lot. You'll learn more by doing more, listening more.

There's also a whole lot of other stuff you can do. Read whatever music-making-related articles and Q&A you can find, talk to ppl who make music, set limitations and work within them, experiment, make use of free plugins...

Most importantly, learn to listen critically. That you can tell your stuff isn't up to par means you can tell there's a difference. Now figure out what the difference is, one thing at a time, and learn how to fix it. It'll take time to learn, but it doesn't have to take 5 years. I got posted in two years. Others have in less.

Also, Modus wins this thread. :D

[TroisNyxEtienne]

Originally Posted by Rozovian

Troix, you've been registered here for a couple of months, you've posted two remixes and one original, commented on four remix wips by other ppl... that's not a lot. You'll learn more by doing more, listening more.

There's also a whole lot of other stuff you can do. Read whatever music-making-related articles and Q&A you can find, talk to ppl who make music, set limitations and work within them, experiment, make use of free plugins...

Most importantly, learn to listen critically. That you can tell your stuff isn't up to par means you can tell there's a difference. Now figure out what the difference is, one thing at a time, and learn how to fix it. It'll take time to learn, but it doesn't have to take 5 years. I got posted in two years. Others have in less.

Also, Modus wins this thread. :D

Bear in mind that the people in Newgrounds have been harsh to me, even rejecting my Newgrounds CD submission despite giving it a sound 8 out of 10, and it's only after my six months there, uploading and commenting on stuff, that I decided to try OCR. But hey, I'll get active here more.

I don't want to be judged by my cover as much as anyone wants to. Yet I know I have a lot to learn, and I'll gladly do so.

[Rozovian]

Originally Posted by TroisNyxEtienne

Bear in mind that the people in Newgrounds have been harsh to me, even rejecting my Newgrounds CD submission despite giving it a sound 8 out of 10, and it's only after my six months there, uploading and commenting on stuff, that I decided to try OCR. But hey, I'll get active here more.

I don't want to be judged by my cover as much as anyone wants to. Yet I know I have a lot to learn, and I'll gladly do so.

There's a difference between someone being harsh to you and someone actually giving constructive criticism. The latter is more common here. ;)

[TroisNyxEtienne]

Originally Posted by Rozovian

There's a difference between someone being harsh to you and someone actually giving constructive criticism. The latter is more common here. ;)

By harsh I meant noob standard harsh, but I'm glad for the kind of criticism you guys give.

[Darangen]

Originally Posted by TroisNyxEtienne

Personally, I don't even think that my remix of Abyss (from Tales of the Abyss) got more than ten (or even five) listens from OCR to begin with.

Then you've got the fact that some people prefer games which are less known to the public than others.

I'd recommend finding some remixers that have a style similar to what you're doing and asking them to take a listen, via pm or on the ocr irc channel. Most of the time if you're willing to ask them to take a listen they're willing to take a listen. I get pm's pretty regular from people asking if I'll take a listen and give some feedback and I'm more than happy to do what I can.

This is especially helpful if it's from a lesser known obscure game. It helps to advertise it. Look at the WiP forum and see who regularly comments on mixes there, ask them for feedback. Until you're a better-known person on the forum you're going to have to put yourself out there a bit more. The worst thing that could happen is someone doesn't respond.

[Brandon Strader]

The panel doesn't usually mind too much if a game is more obscure, but they have been known to share their feelings about whether a source "sucks". One case I know where usage of the source actually contributed to the NO of a song. But in general they're supposed to be very receptive of the source and genre of a remix regardless of whether they personally like it. So if you wanted to go off and make a TEEN AGENT remix you could do it, right now. Right now. ..... Right now.

As for whether the public audience digs your vocal black metal remix of Teen Agent, it doesn't matter! Make it for yourself and if people like it, great.

[Level 99]

Originally Posted by Brandon Strader

The panel doesn't usually mind too much if a game is more obscure, but they have been known to share their feelings about whether a source "sucks". One case I know where usage of the source actually contributed to the NO of a song. But in general they're supposed to be very receptive of the source and genre of a remix regardless of whether they personally like it. So if you wanted to go off and make a TEEN AGENT remix you could do it, right now. Right now. ..... Right now.

As for whether the public audience digs your vocal black metal remix of Teen Agent, it doesn't matter! Make it for yourself and if people like it, great.

Get that crap out of my thread, Brandon. This is a newbies guide, not a TEEN AGENT guide.

Also Darangen hit the nail on the head too. Everyone had such useful feedback. Though Larry still says all my mixes suck in staffchat. All day. Every day.

[TroisNyxEtienne]

Originally Posted by Level 99

Get that crap out of my thread, Brandon. This is a newbies guide, not a TEEN AGENT guide.

Also Darangen hit the nail on the head too. Everyone had such useful feedback. Though Larry still says all my mixes suck in staffchat. All day. Every day.

Right. I won't be too fazed by him, then.