[prophetik music]

Originally Posted by Bleck

excuse me what

you don't like warwick out of the jungle?

i'm assuming you're going to mention skarner, who is a great jungler. i'm a bit burnt out on him at the moment, because it seems every game i play with him, i do really well, but we still lose. his lack of close-the-cap (beyond just going fast) means that it's hard to get that first hit, and beacuse he has no hard cc until level six, he's not good ganking at mid unless the other player's up at your tower because they'll just flash out. he has a high damage output and can do a lot, and his slow and general utility make him a lot of fun to play, but having that awesome initiation that ww has, plus being able to boost everyone's AS when pushing towers, plus the huge sustain from the lifesteal, just makes him so much more fun to play.

now, ww suffers from a lot of the same issues - but ww can solo dragon at level five or six, whereas i rarely solo dragon ever with skarner. ww also doesn't really need blue, whereas skarner kind of needs it unless he gets a tear and levels it way up. early game, skarner also has to go back to base earlier and more often, since inevitably you'll run out of hp and mana, whereas ww tends to stay out a lot more.

trundle's the same way - beacuse you can start with lifesteal on him, and with his passive, he's always got high hp. he also doesn't burn through mana that fast if you're careful about using contaminate. he lasts longer in lane, and that pillar gets kills hands-down. plus, trundle's biggest bonus is how he shuts down enemies - his q reduces AD by a significant amount, his ult reduces resistances, and his increased AS from contaminate allows him to get his hp back up quick between his passive and his lifesteal. even if his pillar wasn't so good, i'd say that his high damage output with q just makes him amazing.

i know skarner's one of the top junglers in the game, but there's a reason people aren't seeing him as much anymore, just like other characters have started to fade a bit. i've always felt that junglers need some sort of hard cc to get early kills against smart opponents, and more and more that's what i'm seeing. characters like xin, shaco (fear), rammus, and jax are becoming more and more used because of their high early-game damage output and their hard cc, and honestly, i'd take hard cc over light cc and more damage against a good teamcomp.

[zircon]

I don't think Trundle's damage output is that high... it's decent, but all single-target and based on auto attacks. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great champ and probably one of the most balanced around. But I don't think of him as high DPS compared to champs like Riven, Renekton or Lee Sin. He is definitely a tank/initiator/ganker.

[Dexie]

Here's a fun fact. Trundle is the least changed champion in the game.

http://www.lol-patch.com/trundle.html

He's only been changed in four patches, and three of those changes were bug fixes. I guess Riot sees him as pretty balanced, too. Pity I never see anyone playing him. He's a neat champ, I just don't like his style.

[Bleck]

Originally Posted by prophetik

i'm assuming you're going to mention skarner, who is a great jungler.

or udyr or lee sin or shaco or trundle or dr mundo or volibear or jax or maokai or nocturne or rammus or shyvana or jarvan or nautilus or malphite or amumu or alistar or cho gath or xin zhao or olaf or tryndamere

any of those really

Originally Posted by prophetik

i'm a bit burnt out on him at the moment, because it seems every game i play with him, i do really well, but we still lose. his lack of close-the-cap (beyond just going fast) means that it's hard to get that first hit, and beacuse he has no hard cc until level six, he's not good ganking at mid unless the other player's up at your tower because they'll just flash out. he has a high damage output and can do a lot, and his slow and general utility make him a lot of fun to play

this is all true, and he's still a much better jungler than warwick

Originally Posted by prophetik

now, ww suffers from a lot of the same issues - but ww can solo dragon at level five or six, whereas i rarely solo dragon ever with skarner.

the gold gain from soloing dragon early is negligible compared to the gold gain any other jungler can earn their team by successfully ganking before level six

Originally Posted by prophetik

ww also doesn't really need blue, whereas skarner kind of needs it

this is true, but if the only issue was mana, one questions why you wouldn't take udyr or lee sin or trundle or cho gath

Originally Posted by prophetik

i know skarner's one of the top junglers in the game, but there's a reason people aren't seeing him as much anymore

it's because he's no longer super easy mode; champ popularity will always be determined by how powerful a champ is compared to how easy they are to play as

Originally Posted by prophetik

i've always felt that junglers need some sort of hard cc to get early kills against smart opponents, and more and more that's what i'm seeing.

ganks are arguably not about getting the kill so much as it is forcing someone out of lane

skarner for instance can gank pre-six because his Q and his W still give him good chasing power and damage; even if he or his teammates fail to kill anyone, they'll still probably force them out of lane

Originally Posted by prophetik

characters like xin, shaco (fear), rammus, and jax are becoming more and more used because of their high early-game damage output and their hard cc, and honestly, i'd take hard cc over light cc and more damage against a good teamcomp.

you have to consider how worth it it is to have that early game hard cc, though - having jax' stun for an early gank is better than an early slow from skarner, but then you're losing out on skarner's ult which is one of the best hard ccs in the game (definitely the best utility wise of the four supressions)

[The Derrit]

so.. melee ad "true carry" as they call it

awesome idea? or destined to fail? i love the effort either way

[Bleck]

fiora has a really boring kit (all of her moves are just slightly different versions of stuff we've already seen) and I'm pretty sure she'll be overpowered when she's released, if only because burst of speed plus lifesteal sounds pretty fucking terrifying

[Tensei]

Originally Posted by Fiora

Blade Waltz (ultimate) - Fiora dashes around the battlefield to deal physical damage to enemy champions. Successive strikes against the same target deal less damage.

Originally Posted by Master Yi

Alpha Strike (Active): Master Yi leaps across the battlefield striking up to 4 enemies, dealing magic damage to each enemy with a chance to deal 400 bonus magic damage to minions.

Originally Posted by Yurnero, The Juggernaut

Omnislash

Juggernaut leaps towards the target enemy unit with a damaging attack, and then slashes other nearby enemy units, dealing between 175-250 damage per slash.

Really riot? One champion with that skill wasn't enough yet?

Also doesn't literally every melee carry need some form of lifesteal/regen so they can be put solo top?

[kupernikus]

Originally Posted by zircon

I don't think Trundle's damage output is that high... it's decent, but all single-target and based on auto attacks. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great champ and probably one of the most balanced around. But I don't think of him as high DPS compared to champs like Riven, Renekton or Lee Sin. He is definitely a tank/initiator/ganker.

Trundle can have some surprisingly nasty burst. He's by far my favorite champ, and I actually have a pretty killer (in my not so humble opinion) guide I've written for him. But I do like trundle as a solo top more than a jungler.

[SoDoM]

Originally Posted by Dexie

Here's a fun fact. Trundle is the least changed champion in the game.

http://www.lol-patch.com/trundle.html

He's only been changed in four patches, and three of those changes were bug fixes. I guess Riot sees him as pretty balanced, too. Pity I never see anyone playing him. He's a neat champ, I just don't like his style.

Check Xerath, only changed in 2 patches and both were bug fixes anyway i hope Riot nerf his range

[eternal Zero]

Originally Posted by Tensei

Really riot? One champion with that skill wasn't enough yet?

Also doesn't literally every melee carry need some form of lifesteal/regen so they can be put solo top?

I'm so sick of Riot's design team.