OverClocked ReMix...

bLiNd · #41 03-07-2006, 11:34 PM

Well compy Im not going to argue with your "expertise" but in the world of club music, louder is better. My white skies club mix is a perfect master for a huge PA. Any mastered wave (properly mastered) wont clip visually or audibly, but any kind of after compression for videos or mp3s or whatever, can cause audible clipping as well. It depends on what your mastering for. If you are mastering for vinyl that will be played on a PA then you can hit the -.1db mark. Creamwares optimaster plugin doesn even have the option of an overhead of -.2db unless you do it manually with a fader. And im sure the German engineers at creamware know a thing or two about their own mastering plugin. Not one plugin ive heard in a software environment comes close to the transparency of the optimaster....

bLiNd · #42 03-08-2006, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Compyfox

So it's not true that mp3 compresses properly mastered material even further in terms of loudness.

I didnt mean in terms of loudness. I meant that the compression of the actual audio to mp3 can cause slight peaks and jumps causing the "Red light" on a vu meter to turn "on". You can usually see graphically the limiting on a wav but if you open the same wav as an mp3 you can see that the limited wav has been compressed. Usually an ultra high bitrate on the mp3 will clip less (And when i mean clip i mean 0db) then a normal bitrate. And let me clarify again, that i mean VISUALLY seeing the clipping on a VU, not actual audible distortion.

Compyfox · #43 03-08-2006, 12:51 AM

I recently mastered Shael Riley's "Toybox" album. That album is in -8dB RMS, -0.2dB limiting. No matter if I open the WAV files or the mp3 files in Wavelab for a 1:1 check - both files are the same, none of them clip, the mp3 doesn't get "compressed" or normalised. A demo track that I mastered before for SGX with his mp3 issue was in -6dB RMS, also -0.2dB limiting. Even here, no clipping in the WAV, and not in the mp3 either.

I wouldn't have written this if I'm not sure about it, blind.

Also... You should know better.
Vinyls work on a carving base. The smaller the amplitude (loudness) for carving, the better the record, the less the chance that the needle hovers around but stays on track. I never really gave tracks into press, but I know from befriended engineers that a -8dB and higher RMS is definitly a NO-NO. Some even say that -10dB is way too hot.

The carved amplitude simply would get too big and turn into a squarewave, which also affects the other windings. This for example is also a reason why not to put a flanger or the bass/basedrum for club productions, or "spread" it out. Not only does it sound crappy on 08/15 standard club systems, neither does it work on the vinyl record itself. CDs work on a totally different basis, this is why loudness-driven engineers could easily step over it's limits.

Speaking of Creamware.
Maybe Creamware knows what they're doing, but that you can't even set the limiter to something different than only 0dB is a joke. No wonder that so many CDs are simply mastered the wrong way. Like I wrote in my last post... there are "always" spikes. Not hearable, but the metering tool catches it. And -0.1dB is just too less of a headroom.

Also if I hear the name "optimaster", I get the chills. Every mastering limiter/compressor that I know which uses that name or even part of it, squashed the life out of the music. Especially in radiostations. So it's like a red flag for me which tells me "don't ever touch it!". Not to mention, if you say that this is the only transparent thing you know, then you definitly didn't try the TbT plugins. DSP cards good and fine, but to me they're overrated.

No pun intended, but this is what I learned over the years from several pros (one of them Bob Katz, inventor and defender of the K-System) or read in books/AES papers.

bLiNd · #44 03-08-2006, 01:13 AM

All optimaster is, is a finalizer like ultramaximizer by waves. The sound quality of their compression algorithm is insanely good and it really puts waves to shame. You would just have to try it to see what im saying. The limiter can be set to whatever you want. But on the pre-normalizer there is a headroom knob that only goes down to -.1db. Anyway thats irrelevant. When i say that optimasters compression is TRANSPARENT, i mean that there is NO squashing whatsoever. NO PUMPING at all...

TbT?!! FREE plugins, now thats a big warning sign to me for a quality compression. Now if you choose those over creamwares plugins, you are just ignorant.

I have a ton of trance vinyls that i have ripped myself mastered at -.2db to -1.db. You dont need to drag this conversation on anymore. Listen to my white skies club mix and you will hear the quality of the compression ive been talking about. Show me some examples of your own work (your own music) with your plugin choices and maybe ill respect your opinion more.

Compyfox · #45 03-08-2006, 01:35 AM

Okay, now this was a clear threat towards my side but okay.

I won't lecture you, I just want you to please accept the facts. Nothing more. If you think your masterings are okay in your book, then they are. If you think "free plugins" aren't worth shit, then they aren't worth shit to you. If you say "-10dB RMS was in the 50ies", then so be it.

You know my works on JoeCam's "Hits & Misses" (which was mastered with a "free" limiter, btw), you heard stuff from Haroon Piracha that I mastered, Trenthian, Zeratul ("Just a Friend", just released on his page), soon even Shael Riley's "Toybox". If you say I talk crap - fine with me. It's your opinion as I have mine in terms of mastering. You say "make it loud", I say "K-12 is more than enough" - whatever, doesn't matter.

It's more ignorant to not consider or even accept other opinions/skills rather than standing ground. I mean... I didn't devote my sparetime in the last 3 years for nothing. And if one of the most well known audio engineers (Bob Katz again) agrees with with what I just wrote, is an AES member, over 15 years in the business and even told me a thing or two, and you say this is not right... then I don't know what is.

No threat, just my 2c.

bLiNd · #46 03-08-2006, 01:54 AM

well we just have different goals and different tools. I respect your knowledge about the technical sides of audio, they surpass me greatly. I know how to use my tools to get the sound I want, and same with you. But dont get me wrong, i do respect the time youve put into your know how and expertise. Anyway, I didnt really mean to attack you.

suzumebachi · #47 03-08-2006, 05:41 PM

what the hell is TbT? also, i don't quite understand how root mean square works when applied to decibels either... do you basically just mean the overall mean volume of the track?

zircon · #48 03-08-2006, 05:45 PM

Right. Peak volume represents.. the peak volume, eg. the loudest the track goes. RMS = Root Mean Squared, which is a representation of the average loudness. It is always lower than the peak.

Argle · #49 03-08-2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zircon

Well... digital clipping is ALWAYS bad.

Nah, I wouldn't say always. Some of the more extreme electronic genres like industrial are built around really harsh sounds. digital clipping or distortion seems appropriate if you want something nice and abrasive.

zircon · #50 03-08-2006, 06:27 PM

No, it's always bad. As in, if you have clipping, it won't even play back properly on some devices.

There's a difference between that and distortion effects which simulate the effect, or recording the effect of the clipping and then compressing it to use in your song. But there is never any case where your actual waveform on the CD should exceed 0.0db.