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  #21  
Old 02-16-2012, 03:18 AM
GarretGraves GarretGraves is offline
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I've put a lot of thought into this. It came down between Guitar Rig 5 or the Boss GT-10. And honestly, the GT-10 is winning because if I want to play live with my sound some day, it'd be easier to do with a hardware-based effects processor. That and the sound quality seems a bit better with the GT-10. I'm gonna have to go with the GT-10.

Don't get me wrong. Guitar Rig has a vast amount you can do with and some awesome clean tones and effects that even John Petrucci would go crazy for. However, when it comes to distorted/crunch tones, it feels rather thin to me. Call me an audiophile, but there just seems to be something missing no matter what combination of mics and cabs and amps I use in GRig. And I've spent the last 2 or so days in my room messing with the damn thing.

With the GT-10 I can either plug into my mixer and have at it or go through my amp and mic it up to see what effect it has. So there's more I can to with it than with GRig.

Thanks for the suggestions guys!
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  #22  
Old 02-16-2012, 03:32 AM
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Neblix Neblix is offline
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Originally Posted by GarretGraves View Post
I've put a lot of thought into this. It came down between Guitar Rig 5 or the Boss GT-10. And honestly, the GT-10 is winning because if I want to play live with my sound some day, it'd be easier to do with a hardware-based effects processor. That and the sound quality seems a bit better with the GT-10. I'm gonna have to go with the GT-10.

Don't get me wrong. Guitar Rig has a vast amount you can do with and some awesome clean tones and effects that even John Petrucci would go crazy for. However, when it comes to distorted/crunch tones, it feels rather thin to me. Call me an audiophile, but there just seems to be something missing no matter what combination of mics and cabs and amps I use in GRig. And I've spent the last 2 or so days in my room messing with the damn thing.

With the GT-10 I can either plug into my mixer and have at it or go through my amp and mic it up to see what effect it has. So there's more I can to with it than with GRig.

Thanks for the suggestions guys!
I would always recommend hardware over software for live use. I'm more of a studio musician, so such a thing is not a consideration for me.

Especially since the GT-10 doesn't even require a computer.
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  #23  
Old 02-16-2012, 05:43 AM
GarretGraves GarretGraves is offline
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Yeah I'm mostly a studio guy myself. But I've performed before and I kinda miss it sometimes. So I'm always open to the possibility. And I prefer to use live what I use in the studio.
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  #24  
Old 02-16-2012, 02:10 PM
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Kanthos Kanthos is offline
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Originally Posted by Neblix View Post
I would always recommend hardware over software for live use. I'm more of a studio musician, so such a thing is not a consideration for me.
So why make a blanket recommendation for something you don't really do, and then not back it up? Are you trying to be helpful or just get your post count up?



Reasons to use hardware live:
1) You generally get better hands-on control (or footswitches in the guitar case) - Doesn't mean that you can't et the same level of control with software by using the right MIDI controller(s), but that takes more work to set up and...
2) Simpler is often better; the fewer things that can fail, the less likely you are to actually have a gear failure.

Reasons to use software live:
1) The sound has the potential to be better (more true with samples than guitar effects)
2) Upgrading your sound is easier - you can't upgrade the GT-10 but you can upgrade Guitar Rig
3) If you need to do anything else, like play some keyboard parts or add a backing track or even clicktrack to stay in sync, you probably can't do that with hardware.
4) Simple is better, but sometimes isn't good enough; you can usually do more complex things with software because you're not limited to a single unit with fixed capabilities, and you can combine software to do what you want.


For me, as a keyboard player, I'm going the software route because the sound is so much better and there are so many ways to control things that you just can't do with hardware (running my EPs, and optionally piano sounds, through Guitar Rig controlled by a Line6 FBV Shortboard controller pedal to stomp things on and off). In my rig, I process all the incoming MIDI through a program called Bome's MIDI Translator that adds all kinds of special behaviours (controller buttons that can do different things at different times, or things like a button to reset all the modifications I've made to a sound by adding effects, playing with cutoff and resonance, or even changing the base sample), then send the MIDI through Cubase (it's the most stable VST host; not great for live use on its own, which is why I use Bome's) rewired to Reason (to get easy access to good synth engines, that make it easy to change the sounds loaded into Reason at the start of a song). Complicated, yes, but powerful.

For you, the big thing I'd ask is how you would record clean guitar tones. I strongly recommend recording dry(or both dry and wet at the same time) as Darangen suggests, so you can tweak your sound later. It's easy enough to record clean with a hardware effects modeller, but it's not as easy to *hear* the wet signal.

One solution is to get a splitter pedal (some tuners do this; I'm not enough of a guitar gearhead to know what else works) and put that in your signal chain immediately after your guitar; send one signal to your DAW, with monitoring turned off for that track, and record it clean, and send the other signal through your effects and either out to an amp or through your DAW on a second channel, this time with monitoring turned on, so you can hear the guitar the way you'd expect.

Last edited by Kanthos; 02-16-2012 at 02:13 PM.
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  #25  
Old 02-16-2012, 02:50 PM
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Darangen Darangen is offline
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Guitar Rig does have a pedal you can purchase and use via MIDI, and I think you can use a few other MIDI foot controllers with it too which makes it completely viable for live performance.

When I play live I use a combination of Guitar Rig, a Boss DD-3 delay pedal, and an A-B switch. I don't have the Guitar Rig MIDI foot controller, but I have the A-B switch going to two separate inputs on my sound card which go to two different Guitar Rig settings - usually heavy and clean sounds. Then I tap on the delay if needed.

At the end of the day it comes down to personal choice really, purchase what you want and what gives you the tone you're looking for. I used the Digitech RP200 for over a decade and it did pretty much everything I needed it to do, so I know the draws of an all-in-one pedal.
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  #26  
Old 02-16-2012, 09:14 PM
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Neblix Neblix is offline
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Originally Posted by Kanthos View Post
So why make a blanket recommendation for something you don't really do, and then not back it up? Are you trying to be helpful or just get your post count up?
I didn't recommend anything. I was answering individual concerns, mostly about getting high gain tones in Guitar Rig.

Get my "post count up"? Really?
Are you trying to show me what I'm doing wrong or trying to just publicly making yourself look good?
(you should try reading, it helps avoid pointless confrontation. Normally I'd let it slide but I put up with far too much of this crap from people who decide to ignore what I say to try and step on me to make their advice seem more profound than it really is)
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Last edited by Neblix; 02-16-2012 at 09:19 PM.
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  #27  
Old 02-16-2012, 09:38 PM
GarretGraves GarretGraves is offline
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If it was an option I could afford, I'd buy a Mesa Boogie Mark V or Marshall JVM and mic it with a couple mics. Even though we have tech that emulates our favorite sounds, the original REAL sound is always better.

I prefer hardware, true. However that doesn't mean I think software has no benefits. There's some awesome, almost synth-like sounds you can produce with GRig. And it's distortion and crunch aren't terrible. Actually you can get some decent roar out of it. I just love the warmth of an amp. So yeah it is a matter of preference.

EDIT: Also, as for recording clean dry guitar first then tweaking later? I'd only do that if I want a clean guitar with effects like flanger or phaser and verb and delay. I don't like the idea of recording clean guitar then adding distortion after. For that, I HAVE to hear the distortion go from my amp through the mics to Pro Tools. It feels better.

Last edited by GarretGraves; 02-16-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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  #28  
Old 02-16-2012, 11:10 PM
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Metal Man Metal Man is offline
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That's why I like to work with my GT-10 and my DAW at the same time since you can have 2 channels at the same time; I have my distortion in channel right and the unprocessed signal in channel left (you can have the raw signal coming out from the GT-10). That way, I play with direct monitoring and mute the software monitoring, so I hear the GT-10 without lag and record 2 tracks at the same time; one is what I just heard, the other is the clean signal.

With the same setting but the direct monitoring turned off and the software monitoring ON, I have another option for a live use: automate everymotherfuckingthing.

I set up a good clean sound rather than an unprocessed one, and keep my distortion on the other channel. I can program things like "Mute clean on bar 17/Unmute Distortion of bar 17" and vice versa. Have my delay stop at 75% of bar 24, the value of the time delay change, put a flanger on the last note of another bar... have my volume fade out here and there, solo boost when needed.. you get the picture

If you plan on using the GT-10 with an amp, use the GT-10 as the pre-amp and the amp as a simple power-amp, you do that by using the "4 cable method".

Last edited by Metal Man; 02-17-2012 at 07:50 PM.
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  #29  
Old 02-17-2012, 01:59 PM
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Kanthos Kanthos is offline
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Originally Posted by Neblix View Post
Get my "post count up"? Really?
It's a reasonable guess; you're someone who comes across as wanting to be helpful (which you often are) but not always discerning the difference between a helpful response (most of what you've said in this thread, for example) and unnecessary chatter (the one post I quoted). So either you think that everything you say is helpful, which isn't true, or you have some other reason to post often. Don't assume, however, that *everyone* who has something to say about *one* of your posts thinks the same about *all* of them; if I'd had wanted to comment on all your posts, I would've used the word "all" at some point in my post, or quoted more than one of yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neblix View Post
Are you trying to show me what I'm doing wrong or trying to just publicly making yourself look good?
I don't care about making myself look good period, and I know that the only way I am going to look good is by giving worthwhile advice. All I was trying to do was help cut down on unnecessary chatter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neblix View Post
I didn't recommend anything. I was answering individual concerns, mostly about getting high gain tones in Guitar Rig.

(you should try reading, it helps avoid pointless confrontation...
I did read *all* the posts in this thread, including all of yours. I chose to directly respond to one of them, and point out why it wasn't useful. That seemed to go over your head, so let me try again in smaller steps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neblix View Post
I would always recommend hardware over software for live use.
First, yes, you did recommend something; the sentence above that I quoted is obviously a recommendation. If you did not intend it to be, maybe you should take the time to be clear about what you say?

Second, when you use 'always', that's a blanket statement. Always means "100% of the time" (or, depending on how loose you want to take it, it could be interpreted as "there may be rare exceptions which I will ignore, but generally, the vast majority of the time...") You're saying that no matter what the situation, you'd always recommend hardware. That's a pretty bold statement, given that all kinds of pro musicians disagree with you, from Owl City to Lyle Mays of the Pat Metheny Group.

Logically, you saying that you always recommend hardware means that either 1) you don't know enough about playing live to know when software is the better choice or 2) you disagree with anyone who would use software over hardware while on stage.

The former's a pretty useless statement; the latter is much more relevant, and it would be helpful to Garrett to know *why* you think that. You didn't explain yourself in any detail (and still haven't, at least not in this thread), so it's completely relevant for someone to ask why you're making such a generalized recommendation without saying why you think that way. And, for me personally, I'm always tweaking my keyboard rig, so if you've got something to say that I haven't considered, I'd want to know too. Whatever you say wouldn't likely be enough to change my opinion on using software (I've put *a lot* of time and experience into deciding how I want things to work for me), but you might be able to highlight some pitfall of software that I hadn't thought about yet and could find a way to work around.

Moving on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neblix View Post
I'm more of a studio musician, so such a thing is not a consideration for me.
Ok, so in once sentence you state that you think all live performers should stick to hardware. In the next sentence, you say that you don't have enough focus on live performance to have given it much thought. This makes your argument really weak.

In total, you're saying, "You should do things with hardware, but I won't tell you why I think so, and I don't even put enough thought into it to tell you why". You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'll be the first to agree that hardware is almost always the *easiest* option for live performance, but if you're looking for the *best* solution, you should consider both options.

So yes, I did read what you said, and called it out for being unsubstantiated opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neblix View Post
Normally I'd let it slide but I put up with far too much of this crap from people who decide to ignore what I say to try and step on me to make their advice seem more profound than it really is)[/SIZE]
I'm sorry you feel that way. Some people may be using you in that way, and that's not right (and also not what I did here; I trust my advice on live rigs enough, and have had enough opportunities to see other people put it into practice, that I'm confident to let it stand on its own). I'd also gently suggest making sure that what people are "stepping on" is actual quality advice that they disagree with, not posts like the one I quoted that have very little usefulness.

Look, I think you're generally a helpful, knowledgeable, and nice guy. I just think that if you put a bit of thought into what you post, and that includes deciding when it's not worth posting anything at all, that you'll come across as being more helpful overall and that people will take you more seriously.
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  #30  
Old 02-17-2012, 11:19 PM
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Neblix Neblix is offline
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Your assumptions that I'm making a recommendation are flat out wrong. I wasn't recommending anything.

I never once said to go with a certain solution. He had already made up his mind when I made the post you are so "cleverly" trying to manipulate. You should stop looking for problems that aren't there.


Saying that I would always recommend hardware doesn't mean I AM recommending hardware. The initial subject of the thread was over when Garrett decided to go with the GT-10. Sure, I'm "playing with my words" to try and "defend myself". What the fuck else can I do when I'm being attacked for something I wasn't even trying to do?




As far as advice goes, my comment about hardware for live use was COMMENT, not advice or a recommendation.

The advice I gave in this thread? Was real tangible advice about a subject that I knew about than any others in the thread at that moment in time because I have been heavily practicing it for the past three days: high gain tones in Guitar Rig 5 Pro. I gave him moderately detailed instructions on how to get a tone I was currently working on. If I recall correctly, he actually did end up crafting a tone that he liked.

Looks like my advice isn't as "blanket" and "unhelpful" as you think it is.

Once more I'd like to say that equating "I would say" to "I am saying" is flat out wrong ESPECIALLY that when confronted on it I say it's not the same thing (yet you still insist I was saying one thing when I told you I wasn't).


So what if I didn't explain my opinion on hardware? He already made up his mind on what he wanted.
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Last edited by Neblix; 02-17-2012 at 11:32 PM.
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