Super Smash Bros Brawl

[Neo Samus]

Wow....I under estimated DK.

[Global-Trance]

Ahaha I wish people wouldn't give out the cool tech stuff in Brawl so soon.

:3

[atmuh]

I never saw the match that was in question, but high level brawl is a camp and spam fest, and if you swear that you're not doing it, then you will 99% of the time lose to someone who knows how to do it well. Defense is overpowered in Brawl.

Also, the cap between noob and pro is vastly smaller than in melee as of right now. It's really not a very skill intensive game. That melef guy was right, alot of people who had the technical skill and mindgames to win in melee cannot win anywhere near that consistently in brawl. There is no defining thing to make any person really THAT much better.

In brawl, when you're playing other people, unless you camp, you really can only win fairly consistently as far as I can see. It's too easy to punish people who attack you, simple as that.

I'm not saying it's not a fun game or anything, but it's not built for truly competitive play. Niether was melee really, but people found shit to abuse and it became a highly competitive game because the amount of technical skill and mental games that were needed to win at a high level. Maybe if they find some shit like that in Brawl it will break the game too, but until that happens I'll be content just fucking around in brawl.

the best brawl players ive ever seen play as dk and bowser

good luck camping as them

[Scufo]

That offstage throw has got to be the coolest way to kill someone I've ever seen. It's stuff like that that'll help us break Brawl.

[IbanezNinja]

Also, the cap between noob and pro is vastly smaller than in melee as of right now. It's really not a very skill intensive game.

This infuriates me like no other, how exactly is it that the cap between noob and pro is vastly smaller? Please don't insult me by saying "OH THE WAVEDASHING WAS TAKIN OUT DERRR" because I will cut you.

You wanna know why the people with the mindgames and spacing don't win consistantly like they did in Melee? Because they aren't fucking playing Melee. The whole "its unsafe to attack thing so you have to camp" means precisely dick. Third strike is played competitively and it's much more unsafe to attack in it because parry is an easy offensive counter that beats out all attacks. But guess what? You still see people like Daigo win consistently.

[Random Hajile]

First: I in no way am insulting Brawl, I like it and enjoy it. But that does not erase simple facts about the way the game is made. Disputing this is like disputing facts about the game engine, things you can sit there and SEE with your own two eyes.

If you don't see it, then quite simply, you are blind.

Also: I am NOT saying that those who were good in melee should neccesarily be good in Brawl. Also, if you are good in Brawl, do not automatically assume that you are better than an equivalently skilled Melee player. Like you people say, these are different games.

Explanation for those who can't understand why I say Brawl is not as competitive a game as Melee, and is geared towards much more casual playing:

lul, It's attack, defense and punishment friend. If you attack in brawl, you get no reward for breaking through their defense and landing one or two hits, it just resets and puts them back on the defensive and you at a disadvantage AGAIN. In melee, when two people engaged in an attack and defense situation, the winner gave out punishment to the degree of alot of damage/and or a stock loss.

In this, you get no reward, you just add a little bit of damage to the meter and you try again , so on and so forth until someone manages to land a smash attack. It can be fairly entertaining, but does not a truly competitive game make.

And friend, Street Fighter 3 wasn't defensive oriented. It was BALANCED. Parry's were made with small frame windows (Read: Technical Skill) and it took even more to turn those parries into reversal combos. Just as easily, You can mistime a parry, and get your shit raped by some ridiculous combo that the offensive guy put out. Daigo wins because he's a master of the offensive AND defensive, not because he sits there and turtles because defense is overpowered.

You are simply wrong about that point.

ALSO: Technical Skill in melee WAS defined by wavedashing, shffling, fair/bair/dair combos, expert ledgehogging, etc etc.

If you couldn't win because someone was beating you using these tactics, then you simply were a worse player than they were, PERIOD. If you COULD win against people using these tactics without using them, then show me where you place on the national melee rankings please?

Do NOT sit there and argue that melee takes less skill than brawl, or even equal skill. Those "glitches" were what made Melee into the competitive monster that it is(was) today.

I'm not here to argue with you guys, I'm simply stating facts. If you want to disregard them, go on and do so. It doesn't make you right, It just makes you ignorant and uninformed. That guy who was talking shit in the chatlog was an idiot, but he had a point.

With that, I go upstairs to practice mah Wolf and Lucas.

[Jam Stunna]

He's right. Eventually, everyone will realize that shielding is so much better than attacking in Brawl, and we'll really have a non-tech campfest at tournaments.

[IbanezNinja]

Oh man look at this non tech camp fest This game doesn't take any skill at all to play just like brawl, and I'm sure no one will play it in tournaments for over 10 years and I'm pretty sure it won't single handedly invent fighting game tournaments.

Sarcasm aside, Street Fighter 2 is based around spacing and mindgames, and not so much on "technical" (aka execution heavy) stuff like the v-ism bullshit that would plague Alpha 3 or Yun in SF3. Are you gonna sit here and tell me there is less of a gap between people who are good in Street Fighter 2 than in Street Fighter Alpha 3 because Street Fighter 2 doesn't have crouch cancel infinites?

[atmuh]

He's right. Eventually, everyone will realize that shielding is so much better than attacking in Brawl, and we'll really have a non-tech campfest at tournaments.

then explain to me once again why the best players ive ever seen are BOWSER AND DK

[Drack]

then explain to me once again why the best players ive ever seen are BOWSER AND DK

-Tiers don't matter as much as people think they do. In Brawl, you can kick enormous amounts of ass with any character. My opinion is "Play the character who you're best at, not who everyone else is best at." If tiers mattered so much the character you're best at WOULD be a high tier character no matter what. The fact that that's not the case for most Brawl players proves my point. However, matchups can be quite severe, so I see players maining multiple characters in Brawl moreso than Melee.

-Camping, while a QUITE effective tactic, is not > all. You need more than one tactic to go against truly great players.

Also, for what it's worth, I detected a bit of sarcasm in Jam's statement you quoted. Both offense and defense are viable in Brawl; some characters are more geared towards one or the other.

[Jam Stunna]

I wasn't being sarcastic really. DK rapes enormously because of his out-of-shield abilities, same with Bowser. Atma, you of all people should recognize the benefits of camping as an Olimar player.

I am not saying that Brawl does not require skill. But that skill is defensive in nature. The game is built to reward shielding, air dodging and recovery, all of which are defensive in nature.

[cobaltstarfire]

I'm simply stating facts.

Ok so punishment deals out differently in this game, deal with it. That doesn't by any definition make it "less competitive", it just means the punishment deals out differently.

[Sag Ee Mana]

Don't know if it was mentioned before...

but the Freeloader for Wii is really excellent.

No modding, only a little disc and we Europeans can play with your US version of the game ^^

So Wipo, it seems the game is released the 30th May / 1st June in Europe but you can play now if you want.

And did you try the Metal Gear explanations about each character ? It's really fun.

[Overflow]

I like brawl better than melee for a few reasons:

1) In melee, the only characters I ever used were G&W and Samus, and MAYBE Link. In brawl, I still use those two, but I've found nearly 10 other characters I love to play as (Eg. Snake, Ike, Olimar, ROB, Sonic, etc...)

2) Brawl is slower than melee. Like was said, melee was all about wavedashing and the like and for someone like me who likes to make slower advances and charge my attacks so I was really bad at melee.

Brawl is a lot more like N64 SSB than melee is because it is slower. I personally hate it when you're losing to someone (Sometimes being PWND) because they know how to move so fast you can't land a decent hit. In brawl that's being taken out to an extent.

3) Better fighters. In melee, the only ones anyone ever used were Marth, CF, Gdawg, falco, maybe Dr mario, luigi and samus. In brawl, all the characters are much more balanced and evenly powered. Marth and falco are no longer overpowered, underpowered characters like Pikachu have returned to their former N64 glory and even overpowered moves (Like G&W's down+A) have been evened out.

Overall, this make the game, IMO, a much better fighter than melee. If you wanted to play melee but could only vs friends who were CHEEEEAP-squared with marth then it was no fun at all. In brawl, anyone can play and win; I have a friend who was HORRIBLE at melee and doesn't even own a single nintendo system but could PWN with meta knight.

It is more casual and less hardcore, true, but that makes it less cheap and more fun to play.

[Tables]

No one cares, but I've come to realize that I'm losing my edge with ROB, but I'm gaining it with Mr. Golden Watch. That little guy and his turtle are a beast, and they're winning me a lot more matches. Plus his fishbowl is great for Boss Mode. I'm glad the quirky little guy got improved so much, it was just too hard for me to use him well in Melee. Because I suck

[Eten]

I don't think I'm getting the argument against competitive brawl. Is it the lack of "technical skill"? Yeah I agree you don't need to be as fast on the buttons this time around, but that doesn't reduce the complexity.

Or is it the argument that Brawl won't make it because its defensive options are too great and you can camp to great effectiveness? This is becoming a tired argument- brawl in the hands of two amazing players isn't nearly as much of a defensive, spam, camp fest as you guys make it out to be.

Yeah, you have to approach when someone can outcamp you with projectiles. But it's still so dynamic that saying Brawl is going to get boring or turn into only a camp fest is wrong. You can still take characters like luigi, who can hardly go around outcamping people, and has no disjointed hitboxes, aka no marth sword, and you can approach the best of the defensive, campy projectile spammers out there just fine. It just takes knowledge of what you can do vs. all those different characters, and the patience and consistency to make it past the spam. Basically, it's simply easier to learn how to take one defensive character and force everybody else to approach than it is to take one character and learn how to approach vs. 35 other characters, but that doesn't mean camping dominates brawl.

Or is it something else about Brawl? Lack of 0 to death combos? Hitstun is clearly lowered in brawl and there aren't the same sort of comboes we saw before in melee, but I disagree on the opinion that they are necessary for brawl to succeed competitively. Brawl, instead, does allow the constant spacing and mindgaming game to repeatedly get in hits, racking up % to a KO. That spacing and mindgaming game almost makes brawl more complicated than melee was, because it involves more "reading your opponent" than simply mastering the execution of a 0 to death combo that works universally against players.

As long as the fact remains that somebody who is better is going to win more than somebody who is worse, and that the game is fun to play, people will have interest in playing brawl competitively.

[Ciel]

This argument exists in a more informed capacity in dozens of threads at Smashboards. I'd suggest reading Scar's Thread on Melee vs. Brawl and Gimpyfish's thread about Sakurai not wanting Brawl to be competitive. Also you don't seem to understand Melee if you think it's all 0% - Death combos.

[JCvgluvr]

Speaking of Sakurai not wanting Brawl to be competitive, this was in the latest Nintendo Power. I am not sure if this is old or not, but I have not seen it brought up...

Nintendo Power: This is one that a lot of the hardcore Smash Bros. fans have long wondered about. Was the ability to "Wavedash" in Melee intentional or a glitch?

Sakurai: Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period. With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn't a matter of, "OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?" We really just wanted this game, again, to appeal to and be played by gamers of all different levels. We felt that there was a growing gap between beginners and advanced players, and taking that out helps to level the playing field. It wasn't a real big priority or anything, but when we were building the game around the idea of making it fair for everybody, it just made sense to take it out. And it also goes back to wanting to make something different from Melee and giving players the opportunity to find new things to enjoy.

And here is proof that Sakurai and his team suffered from a case of apathy, and that apathy cost Metroid fans big time:

Nintendo Power: There was a rumor at one point about Ridley being playable. Was that ever a consideration?

Sakurai I think that would probably be pretty impossible. [Laughs] If we had put or best efforts into it, we might have been able to do it. But he might have been a little slow. Would that be all right [Laughs]

Oh gee, thanks Sakurai...>_>

[Eten]

This argument exists in a more informed capacity in dozens of threads at Smashboards. I'd suggest reading Scar's Thread on Melee vs. Brawl and Gimpyfish's thread about Sakurai not wanting Brawl to be competitive. Also you don't seem to understand Melee if you think it's all 0% - Death combos.

There are still some combos in brawl and melee had more combos, referring to each in an extreme like "brawl has no combos" and "melee was dependent solely on 0 to death combos" isn't important, cause neither of those specifics are relevant to my point. The only thing that is relevant is that brawl easily has less and lower damage combos than melee did, and has less focus on them.

I've also read smashboards, and Gimpy's stuff comes off as really shallow and not much else.

[Triad Orion]

And here is proof that Sakurai and his team suffered from a case of apathy, and that apathy cost Metroid fans big time:

Nintendo Power: There was a rumor at one point about Ridley being playable. Was that ever a consideration?

Sakurai I think that would probably be pretty impossible. [Laughs] If we had put or best efforts into it, we might have been able to do it. But he might have been a little slow. Would that be all right [Laughs]

Oh gee, thanks Sakurai...>_>

GOD DAMMIT! WHY, SAKURAI!?

Okay, I'm done now. *Laughs*

[Overflow]

Ridley would have been cool but out of proportion. He's a giant beast, and he just wouldn't fit as a playable character.

HOWEVER, I think the hunters from MPH for DS could have been included, or at least one of them. Maybe a space pirate fighter could be cool.

[Eten]

Dark Samus or SA-X might have worked, or possibly fusion suit Samus. It just would have been nice, I guess.

[Overflow]

Dark Samus or SA-X might have worked, or possibly fusion suit Samus. It just would have been nice, I guess.

Fusion suit as an alternate costume o_0

Just looking at Pac-Man way up in the corner and thinking: what If pac-man was in brawl...?

[JCvgluvr]

You guys don't get it. Sakurai himself admits that Ridley was possible. Him and his team just didn't put forth enough effort to make it work. Now there will never be a good excuse for Ridley not being playable. Sakurai ruined it for himself.

NOTE: It isn't a very big deal to me, but I feel marginally disappointed and cheated by Sakurai.

I would have liked a Luigi-fied version of Dark Samus tho...

[Thalzon]

Dark Samus would have been cool, but c'mon, people. 35 characters is plenty. Are you telling me you'd want to go through All-Star mode more than 35 times?

I'm perfectly content with the roster size and variety for now. Until they rework the single-player experience and disclude such time sinks as Classic, All-Star, or what-have-you that requires you to play through with every character with virtually no change in content, 35 is more than enough.

That said, in my infinite loserdom, I made this dumb thing:

... And this one, too. Just because.

I feed on boredom and leave a path of ruined dreams and mangled ideas in my wake.