Why Links to Rejections Are Removed

[djpretzel]

Submitters should note that they must explicitly state in their submission emails their desire to have links left to their mixes.

- judges panel

We voted on this before, but that was then, this is now, we've got some new blood, and the veteran judges are a little more "seasoned" now, so I think it's worth raising as an issue again.

This is an interesting issue - there are good arguments on either side. The question is whether to let the links to rejected mixes stay in the judges decisions topics, so that everyone can potentially have the chance to download these tracks.

The previous vote was to continue removing the links, the rationale being that if we left the links, it would be the same as basically having your mix posted. I'm not so sure on that one, but there are some other issues, like when someone gives us a private FTP (we'd need to be careful) and instances where someone might not want their mix shared. Also, the number of files being shared out there "in the wild" that are incorrectly labeled as OC ReMixes would increase to some degree.

The arguments posted since then, primarily by listeners from what I've seen, lean towards the notion that having the rejected mixes linked would give everyone more insight into the judges decisions' - what works, what doesn't, and why a given mix didn't quite make the cut. It might also alleviate issues where people tend to overreact that a mix wasn't posted. However, it might do the exact opposite - the "public at large" might disagree en masse with the judges' decision when they can actually hear the song.

I don't know. I'm still not sure, either way. I do feel like it's worth raising again, for the reasons I initially mentioned.

Your call . . .

[DarkCecil13]

I'm with keeping it the same. I think the points you made in paragraph #3 are more than solid enough to show why we shouldn't leave the links in rejected ReMixes.

[analoq]

Good arguments on both sides, I'm feeling sorta on the fence about it, but I think we should give it a shot. Prospective remixers could use a better idea of what we're not looking for.

As for mislabled OC ReMixes floating around, perhaps we could decide on an identifyer for submitters to use, like blahblah_OCSubmission.mp3 and update the submissions guidelines... which I think would be a good idea either way to help cut back on mislabled floaters. That is, if renaming the accepted ReMixes afterwards isn't too much work. Just an idea, maybe it's been brought up before.

anyways, if things don't go well, we can always switch back.

[Protricity]

I'd like to point out that on a recent rejected song I got a PM from the artist asking to remove the link that was accidently left in. Apparently he was very sincere that we remove the link as it is his private server.

Personally, I had no idea people needed to keep these things private, so I say we keep with the SQ

[Malcos]

Keep it the same I say.

[Protricity]

If they want their song heard, it will be in WIP.If they don't want their song heard, it will not be in WIP.

[Digital Coma]

I think removing the links makes sense. A good deal of them are either flimsy and fragile due to free hosting at sites like Geocities or personal FTPs to which we're entrusted with private usernames and passwords. The Judges Decisions board is poured over by hundreds of eyes; hundreds of ears, for these hosting conditions, would be a major problem.

We usually explain the reasoning for our decisions thoroughly enough for people to understand what led us to make them. I myself almost always understood at least the basics of what the judges were saying when I studied the Decisions board (but then again, I’m not a remixer, so take that as you will). If there's any chance for miscommunication or incomprehension, a particularly curious individual can always contact the submitter in concern, and if he's willing to share his rejected mix, can listen to it for himself.

There's been controversial cases that have lead to deadlocks where one judge sealed a mix for rejection. If random passerbys can download and listen to it, and for whatever reason enjoy it, there may arise strong dissent and questioning of our judgment. If this occurs often, how will we continually handle it?

Another detail to keep in mind is that many people who come to the Decisions board with no personal purpose are there just to "rubberneck" - merely to see mixes crash and burn. It'll be a bigger source of embarrassment for loads of mixers if a public link is available.

On a side note, it may be a good idea to list the points made leading to the result of this poll in the Judges Decisions sticky so that there's an official explanation readily available.

[djpretzel]

I was just gonna move this whole dang decision over to the judges decisions forum and make it a sticky. It'd be better if everyone voted though, and we've still got some stragglers.

[GrayLightning]

I agree with the points Digital Coma brought up. If the mixers want their mixes available beyond the judging process they can post it in the WIP forum.

I vote to stay with the current system and keep the links off.

[analoq]

wow.. it's been a long time since i've seen this topic. (back when my shift key used to work)

anyways, i'm still in favor of leaving the links in but i would like to amend that we only leave them in if the remixer explicitly asks for it in the submission email. this would make most people happy.

yeah, it's unnecessary and maybe redundant given the WIP/Finished forum, but before i was a judge it was a feature i wanted to see. as a prospective remixer i was interested in what patterns the judging panel followed so that i could contribute to ocr and i only had half of the equation seeing the posted remixes. i eventually figured it out of course, but i always had an interest in hearing the material that didn't quite make it.

and that's my perspective, even though it's seemingly academic given the issue has already been decided.

cheers.

[Digital Coma]

We're "redeciding" the issue since it's been brought up again and we haven't discussed it in ages. I removed the poll since it was useless at this point.

anyways, i'm still in favor of leaving the links in but i would like to amend that we only leave them in if the remixer explicitly asks for it in the submission email. this would make most people happy.

If a mixer explicitly asks for the submission link to be left in, we should go with that. That way the burden of privacy and hosting conditions is on the mixer. We'd have to update the submission FAQ and make this change well-known, of course. I don't know if many people would specifically state as such in their emails, but if this is allowed, the responsibility lies with them.

wow.. it's been a long time since i've seen this topic. (back when my shift key used to work)

I noticed!

[Vig]

I'd say NO LINKS because we dont have the remixer's permission to send floods of people to his webspace.

but if a mixer were to lay out a contingency plan in case his mix were rejected taht states, "leave the link", then fine. i dont care.

[DarkeSword]

I think that something that might work better than leaving the link in would be to strongly encourage people to put contact information, like their forum name or email address or something into their submission email, so that those people who are interested can contact the mixer in question. That way we don't have to deal with someone who asks to leave the link in first, then realizes their bandwidth is getting ravaged, then asks for the link to be removed.

Also, people could ask to have their link remain, but never change the tags, this we'd inadvertently be 'posting' a rejected mix.

Links stay out, I say.

[Protricity]

I say, make a clear rule:

If artist wants link to remain in rejection, he must state it explicitly in the email. If its not clear to us what he wanted, we remove the link.

Thus anyone who cares will have the full opportunity to have the link available.

If we have all links remain in rejections, my assumption is that 95% of them will be dead.

[DarkeSword]

That still leaves the problem of mistagged files.

Lets just leave it the way it is and tell people to put contact info as a part of their submission email. That will be useful for US too, in case we need to contact the remixer about filesize issues, bitrate issues, etc.

The clear rule should be:

"Put contact information (like a forum name or email address) in your submission email, in case we need to contact you about your mix."

[Digital Coma]

Although, this isn't a bad idea:

As for mislabled OC ReMixes floating around, perhaps we could decide on an identifyer for submitters to use, like blahblah_OCSubmission.mp3 and update the submissions guidelines... which I think would be a good idea either way to help cut back on mislabled floaters.

Dave already has to retag most everyone's shit anyway.

[Beatdrop]

So I'm back. Hooray. I know you all missed me. Anyway:

That way we don't have to deal with someone who asks to leave the link in first, then realizes their bandwidth is getting ravaged, then asks for the link to be removed.

Simple solution to that is to include the contingency that if they choose to have the link included in the thread for the rejected remix, there is NO removing of the link. Not only would that cause a lot of people to shy away from this, it would prevent us from having to remedy any problems like the previously mentioned one.

[Liontamer]

On removing the links for rejected mixes, I'm way in favor of YES. The reasons have been gone over well enough: we have the WIP forum, lots of links are temporary/unable to support lots of bandwidth, mixers don't wanna be potentially embarrased, and, most importantly, decisions that have really pissed off some people (e.g. Dezoris Winter v1/Four Fantasies/F-Zero Megamix) will ALWAYS have their links pimped out by the listeners who care; they don't even need us to leave the link up on the rejected decision in order to figure out where to find the mix and subsequently argue with us about it.

[Digital Coma]

This thread has been in the Judges Discussion forum for over a year, and it's pretty clear a decision was reached way before then.

Now the public can enjoy!

Submitters should note that they must explicitly state in their submission emails their desire to have links left to their mixes.