Indiana Jones 4

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I always thought that suspension of disbelief was a major part of film-going in general. I guess I've been wrong for the past 20 years.

[Zup]

I always thought that suspension of disbelief was a major part of film-going in general. I guess I've been wrong for the past 20 years.

Unless you're watching avant-garde films, then yes, the suspension of disbelief is paramount in a Hollywood film. Indy 4 failed me several times on this account, which none of the previous three did.

[The Author]

Unless you're watching avant-garde films, then yes, the suspension of disbelief is paramount in a Hollywood film. Indy 4 failed me several times on this account, which none of the previous three did.

Actually, you failed it.

Movies provide you with something you have to "believe" and your job is to ignore your "disbelief" and enjoy the ride.

[jayc4life]

Are we all seriously debating about how this movie "failed" or "succeeded"?

You know, this film obviously succeeded. If we weren't talking about it, then it would have failed. Movie-makers aren't out to make good movies, they're out to make MONEY. Which we spent going to see it. Meaning that their job was successful.

[The Pezman]

Movies provide you with something you have to "believe" and your job is to ignore your "disbelief" and enjoy the ride.

But there's a limit. Would you be able to suspend your disbelief if it turned out Dr. Jones was actually a monkey in disguise? It sounds silly to even say because if it actually happened there would be no way to justify it. None. The point is that belief cannot be suspended no matter what. It only works to a certain extent. Gregor Samsa can turn into a beetle, but everything that happens afterwards is realistic, given that first event.

[CursedByFire]

the movie was good until the last 15 mins. the other 3 movies are great and this one is too, just a little disappointing...

[DarkeSword]

But there's a limit. Would you be able to suspend your disbelief if it turned out Dr. Jones was actually a monkey in disguise? It sounds silly to even say because if it actually happened there would be no way to justify it. None. The point is that belief cannot be suspended no matter what. It only works to a certain extent. Gregor Samsa can turn into a beetle, but everything that happens afterwards is realistic, given that first event.

Gregor Samsa turned into a cockroach.

[Woe Is You]

My problems with Indy 4:

1) Excessive use of CGI. Can't they afford to use real ants instead of horrific looking CGI ants? An intro with a CGI prairie dog on a CGI desert? What the hell?

2) They really didn't leave anything up to the viewer's imagination. That's what I really loved in Ark: you don't really know what happened to the nazis in the end.

3) Completely, completely ridiculous and generic action scenes like the sword fighting scene with the jeeps.

And in general the whole movie just lacked a sense of peril and danger. By the time they get to the scene where Indy and Marion are having family talk on a pit of quicksand, it was basically clear that nothing's going to happen to any of these characters. Then the movie just got increasingly ridiculous.

What was most puzzling to me was that Blanchett's character knew that staring into the skull wasn't a good idea, but then during the last 15 minutes she forgets it and dies for it. What happen? :scratch:

As you can see, I didn't like the movie all that much. I liked Iron Man, which was also completely ridiculous, but at least it was consistent within itself. Indy 4 just felt bleh.

[The Author]

Villains in Indiana Jones always die by what they desire. That simple.

And we never knew what was in the ark, however, we pretty much knew, with the "painful" special effects, that the guys faces melted away.

I'm telling you, you need to all go back and watch the original trilogy, you forget how "bad" the first three were.

[zircon]

Guys, please preface your posts with SPOILERS or write spoiler text in white.

[DarkeSword]

My problems with Indy 4:

1) Excessive use of CGI. Can't they afford to use real ants instead of horrific looking CGI ants?

Okay, what? Are you really suggesting they pony up for tons of KILLER ANTS?

[The Author]

Okay, what? Are you really suggesting they pony up for tons of KILLER ANTS?

Giant, non existing killer ants?

I got some of those in a backroom somewhere, with my swift and silent invisible elves that only come out at night you cannot disprove.

[Aninymouse]

You know, I thought the cheesiness of it all was pretty charming. My only gripe was the monkeys. The ants I even liked, but the monkeys were too predictable.

I loved the film.

My parents and sisters thought National Treasure II was way better, but I found that one to be WAAAAAAAAAAAY over-acted to the point that it killed it for me halfway through.

We all have our tastes.

[Soma]

Giant, non existing killer ants?

I got some of those in a backroom somewhere, with my swift and silent invisible elves that only come out at night you cannot disprove.

The prairie dog thing irked me the most. it's not like prairie dogs have agents. The CGI prairie dog didn't do anything a real one couldn't do.

[Aninymouse]

[The Author]

The prairie dog thing irked me the most. it's not like prairie dogs have agents. The CGI prairie dog didn't do anything a real one couldn't do.

Stand still?

That posture is when they are ready to leave, that was more unbelievable than the fridge. The should not have stayed still.

[Poke'G]

I'm actually surprised the fridge sequence hasn't been getting more hate.

Most of the movie was pretty standard Indiana Jones fare, which is full of crazy unbelievable antics. I really think the doubters just went into the movie ready to harp on it no matter what they saw. The fact that Lucas tried to change up the formula just a tad didn't help them any.

I read most of the complaints and see:

"DIFFERNCES??? BAD MOVIE!!!"

It may not rank with the other three, fine, I'll grant that. It's not a bad movie though.

They really didn't leave anything up to the viewer's imagination. That's what I really loved in Ark: you don't really know what happened to the nazis in the end.

Um... the Nazis all pretty clearly died in horrendous ways in Raiders. I guess their pain was up to our imaginations, but not their fate.

[Wintermute]

Alrighty, since there seems to be more debate about this than I had originally anticipated, I will go ahead and clear up my thoughts on this film for you all.

All in all, a decent adventure flick. Scores higher than National Treasure 2 in my book. However, it ranks only just above Temple of Doom in my book as far as an Indiana Jones movie (I can't stand Temple of Doom because of the amazingly annoying female lead, but that's a whole different post).

My main issue with it wasn't the CGI, which I thought was perfectly acceptable for the most part, but was rather with the way the story was presented. I will try to be as spoiler free as possible, but those who have seen the movie will likely know what I'm talking about:

During the first 15 minutes of the movie, we are told what the final "twist" of the movie ought to have been. Frankly, knowing the origin of the object right at the beginning removed much of what could have been interesting plot development.

Second, no longer was Indiana Jones finding his own way. He was often being led about by other characters, namely Mutt initially (you've GOT TO COME HELP) and, in a much worse case, by John Hurt's character. John Hurt's character had already solved THE ENTIRE FILM, and the other characters merely followed him through it.

Much of what made Indiana Jones the character we all love is gone as well. Besides a few sparkling moments, the character is generally not witty, coy, or any of those things. He was merely along for the ride as the resident badass.. the film could actually have worked exactly the same without his character at all, if you made Mutt slightly more intelligent to figure out things up until the point where John Hurt's character entered the story.

And an Indiana Jones film where Indiana Jones himself is not necessary to the story arc... that's a bad thing.

[The Author]

John Hurt's character should have been Sean Connery's.

That aspect bugged me a lot more than the other complaints really. At the end of the movie, it was like: I wish they had gotten Connery for that one.

[Poke'G]

I don't know. I thought the relationship that came up instead sufficed. Connery may have been overkill.

Lucas himself has said Connery would only have had a cameo role had he accepted the offer.

[DarkeSword]

And an Indiana Jones film where Indiana Jones himself is not necessary to the story arc... that's pretty much every indiana jones movie.

Fixed it.

[djpretzel]

SPOILERS

Ooff...

Finally saw this tonight. A little late to the game, perhaps, but a huge fan of the first and third films and an occasional admirer of the second.

I have no idea why critics are being so nice to this one; I think it's because of the ages of those involved and unlikelihood of a fifth film with the same principles in play. I've read back through this thread, and there seem to be folk criticizing the film, and others defending it, and the main defense seems to be "but the other three films were like that, too!"... I sure hope not. The CG is bad to a fault... normally wouldn't be a huge issue, but it's overused as well, and applied to scenes that could have been shot traditionally (admittedly would have been much harder)... But it's a non-issue compared to the goofiness of the overall plot. How was it any sort of revelation that the skull was alien in nature? It resembles the stereotypical Communion-style alien form in every way, right from the beginning. Also, a little unclear.... 13 aliens, or 1? And they came to Earth for... what reason? To be worshipped awhile, have one of their heads stolen, wait a real long time, then fry a Russian woman's eye sockets because she wants to know stuff? Was her fate punishment for being inquisitive - which, in the face of alien intelligence, might actually seem admirable and preferable to running away - or for being Communist? Or perhaps being psychic... an ability she uses all of once in the film, and without actual results?

A couple problematically ridiculous lines:

• "They've gone to the spaces BETWEEN spaces..."
  (presumably where the good parts of the screenplay went, too...)
  
• "Their treasure was knowledge. Knowledge was their treasure."
  (...of what? What is it that they knew? Why'd they stop knowing it? What did it get them? If it's a treasure, why was Cate's wanting to know rewarded with disintegration? Because she didn't wear a thong and speak Mayan?)

IJ 1-3 had NOTHING on that level of bad when it comes to writing.

This film needed racially insensitive CG Short Round on a CG elephant.

[Wintermute]

Fixed it.

You can argue that the other films would work with a similar character, and perhaps that Temple of Doom could work with most action heroes, but definitely 1 and 3 require a character with the same basic set of abilities AND personality to be pulled off.

[JCvgluvr]

I've seen all the movies now, with 4 just being added tonight.

Where is all this negativity and lack of support for IJ4 coming from? This was right up there with The Last Crusade in my book.

DJ, the villainess (Cate is her name?) was fried because the alien(s?) KNEW she was evil. How? We don't know that. But the aliens have been presented as superbly intelligent and given psychic abilities. That's all we need to know.

[FuriousFure]

I've seen all the movies now, with 4 just being added tonight.

Where is all this negativity and lack of support for IJ4 coming from? This was right up there with The Last Crusade in my book.

DJ, the villainess (Cate is her name?) was fried because the alien(s?) KNEW she was evil. How? We don't know that. But the aliens have been presented as superbly intelligent and given psychic abilities. That's all we need to know.

okay, yeah but here's what i want to say:

if they took out the obvious CGI (alien dude, ground hogs, tarzan boy and the monkeys) the movie would have been AMAZING. if the aliens in skeleton form blew up the evil commie lady and the outside of UFO wasn't seen it was just the rocks floating. and the kid drove a motorcycle through the jungle and jumped onto the badguy's vehicle crushing a few of them.

also, who the hell is mac and why should i care?