OCR TF2: New Server forthcoming - new server IPs and other stuff

[Bleck]

Somewhere along the line, many users have adopted the notion that wanting to win is wrong. Bad even. If this was the view held by the majority of the community, the MOTD would be structured very differently.

it's not really your desire to win that is wrong as much as it is your desire to force other people to play a game they paid for a certain way

if you want to win, that's cool

if somebody wants to play sniper, that's cool

expecting somebody to not play sniper when they want to because you want to win is ridiculous

[Rambo]

it's not really your desire to win that is wrong as much as it is your desire to force other people to play a game they paid for a certain way

if you want to win, that's cool

if somebody wants to play sniper, that's cool

expecting somebody to not play sniper when they want to because you want to win is ridiculous

Again, I'm thinking of the greater good here. I'm not the only person effected by this. One sniper being unhappy, on occasion, is a better option than up to potentially eleven unhappy players. I don't think this is just me.

I play sniper often as well. I'll lose out too.

[atmuh]

[SporkNinjaDraken]

Huh pretty sweet... Hey I've been looking but I can't find much about these beta items anywhere what are they all supposed to be? I've heard a few but I know I'm missing some details on a few. xD;

[A Random Tiger]

Huh pretty sweet... Hey I've been looking but I can't find much about these beta items anywhere what are they all supposed to be? I've heard a few but I know I'm missing some details on a few. xD;

Wrench that builds faster but can't upgrade.

Heavy gloves that make you run faster but drain health.

Spy suit that doesn't catch fire but you lose your revolver

And I didn't see what was with the medigun, but the overcharge doesn't decay

[Sensai]

The Medigun is, apparently, a heal gun that heals 50% slower but the overheal doesn't decay. The Ubersaw is going to take away 20 health on contact, and the blutsauger is going to drain 2 health per second when being used.

Glad to see that they're balancing some of the medic weapons.

[Edit:]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah. The flame retardant spy suit makes so much more sense than how I was originally imagining it. Good stuff.

[Dhsu]

50% heal speed. It also seems the Blutsauger and Ubersaw will be nerfed a bit; the Blutsauger description said it would drain 2 health every second it's worn (basically negating the natural Medic regen), and the Ubersaw will drain 30 HP on hit (I'm assuming you can't kill yourself with it though).

Edit: Looks like I got post-jacked but I'm leaving this up because SCREWWWW YOUUUUU SENSAIIIII.

[SporkNinjaDraken]

Huh... I like the sound of the wrench will make fungineering ... fun. xD

[Rambo]

50% heal speed. It also seems the Blutsauger and Ubersaw will be nerfed a bit; the Blutsauger description said it would drain 2 health every second it's worn (basically negating the natural Medic regen)

Thank you for pointing this out!!! I didn't understand how they could justify that.

and the Ubersaw will drain 30 HP on hit (I'm assuming you can't kill yourself with it though).

This is just weird. I thought the nerf would target uberchaining. But this has a nul effect on that.

[Secret Agent Man]

I would rather see something like -50% damage done on the Uber Saw. Now that it has been pointing out that the health drain on the blut will just negate the Medic regen (as opposed to just making the medic lose health) I'm okay with it. Although this means the Blut will have two negative points (no crits, -health) and only one positive (+3 health on hit).

[atmuh]

I would rather see something like -50% damage done on the Uber Saw. Now that it has been pointing out that the health drain on the blut will just negate the Medic regen (as opposed to just making the medic lose health) I'm okay with it. Although this means the Blut will have two negative points (no crits, -health) and only one positive (+3 health on hit).

think about what you said for a second

if the ubersaw did -50% damage, youd get an uber out of a melee kill on just about anyone

and nocrits is not a negative point to a weapon i thought this was established like 10 months ago

[FireSlash]

RE ctf crit boost, I agree that it's a steamroll mechanic.

What CTF really needs in my opinion is a delayed respawn time for the intel, so the other team has time to recover. This combined with lowering it to 3 cap would probably be a nice change, and the crit boost would then be moot.

I couldn't find any mods to duplicate this behavior though.

[Trianine]

Then it seems we're at an impasse, because you still don't understand where I'm coming from. I'm considering the success of a team, compared to the success of an individual.

"I understand that you want people to play as a team, win as a team."

agreed.

If this isn't what you have been trying to drive home all this time, please let me know.

The only reason I didn't say lets agree to disagree in my last response is because it really didn't seem like you grasped what I was saying. I was tempted to, because we don't agree.

Somewhere along the line, many users have adopted the notion that wanting to win is wrong. Bad even. If this was the view held by the majority of the community, the MOTD would be structured very differently.

I'm sorry Rambo, but I have to call bullshit on this. I would say that having a good time is more valuable than winning, but winning is winning for a reason. I was content to lose a game last night, because it was such a great game. That doesn't mean I think winning is bad. And I really don't think these feelings of yours are congruent with our player base or reality.

I'll agree with you. This could happen and no, it wouldn't be fair. But it would be extremely rare. One of the few reasons we're having conflicting arguments is because I'm taking a utilitarianistic approach to the situation, instead of idealistic.

Ugh, utilitarianism is okay in concept. But it's a deeply flawed philosophy that allows euthanasia of the weak, handicapped, and other invalids, "for the greatest happiness of the most individuals." Proponents still have to decide on the value of other peoples lives and often neglect the benefits that come out of hardship. Sorry, I've had a few run-ins with utilitarianism in the past.

Another reason we're finding disagreements is because you have the opinion that all classes are equal. I don't share this opinion.

Nor do I. I thought you knew this. I'm pretty sure you've commented right here in this forum about how I felt snipers are useless. I still think they are the least useful class by far.

But you act as though we're elliminating the class all together.

No, I'm acting as though we are eliminating a players choice to play that class at will. Go ahead, keep putting words in my mouth. I don't mind. I do not believe that winning is everything, and that the frustrating moments in server when a team gets absolutely raped, are not worth the other moments where people get silly and decide there are only three classes to choose from. Sniper, of course, being a favorite.

And I think that is where we are different. IIRC your position is unyieldingly play-to-win. And frankly, there are other ways to enjoy the game than to play competitively 100% of the time. The class limit you endorse will make complete steamrolling less of a problem, but it will do so at the cost of simply having casual fun. And I don't think it's enough of a problem that it warrants limiting peoples fun in every other case.

Please forgive any previously stated hostile remarks. I found your sly use of "Capisce?" to be very condescending.

To base a whole argument on one word... I used capisce because I though saying "Understood?" would come off as condescending. Go figure, I come from an Italian household.

It's alright rambo, I still love you <3

I like to discuss with intensity, and I don't keep hard feelings.

[Bahamut]

RE ctf crit boost, I agree that it's a steamroll mechanic.

What CTF really needs in my opinion is a delayed respawn time for the intel, so the other team has time to recover. This combined with lowering it to 3 cap would probably be a nice change, and the crit boost would then be moot.

I couldn't find any mods to duplicate this behavior though.

I could create custom cfg files for each ctf map if you'd like.

Also I had planned to play tomorrow (Tuesday), but it looks like it won't happen

[Trianine]

After watching and discussing this whole class limit thing, I do want to throw a proposal out. Would we be able to agree that putting a class limit on cart push maps and attack/defend maps to reduce grief, but not put these restrictions on other map types?

My thinking is this: CTF maps are frequently taken less seriously and are often more casual fun. And because of the map designs and game flow, snipers are more effective on CTF and KotH, at least.

I would suggest map votes for eliminating/reinstating the class limit on the map types but I have a feeling that any vote dedicated to a minority class will never succeed.

ALSO:

I hereby invite all career pyros, career snipers, career spies and any other players that have a career class, to find CLEFAIRY and show him your handiwork personally.

He thinks you are a myth like the unicorn and dragon.

<3 Trianine

[FireSlash]

I could create custom cfg files for each ctf map if you'd like.

If we're applying the same settings to just ctf maps, or other types, I can easily write a little python hack or something that can generate these for you.

However, I don't know if we can change the intel respawn time via map cfgs

[Bleck]

One sniper being unhappy, on occasion, is a better option than up to potentially eleven unhappy players. I don't think this is just me.

who is john galt

[Mooker]

I think I qualify as a career spy. You guys can judge how good I am (I'll still play spy though). Class limits wouldn't really bother me because I'm fine playing non-spy classes. Steamrolls only bother me if it is due to my team being genuinely bad as opposed to the other team being really good.

Also this is !! if you weren't sure.

Also crits are fun and so is arena.

Also [...] = best (joke) clan ever. JOIN NOW!!

[Rambo]

"I understand that you want people to play as a team, win as a team."

This is mostly my concern. I may be wrong, but I believe your concern is that everyone is entitled to making, and learning from their own decisions. This is reinforced by the fact that everyone has purchased the game for his own, personal enjoyment. I think you also hope, or believe, that players will meet their circumstances with maturity and respect. The reason I'm pushing for a sniper limitation, is because through experience (especially as of late), there are many people not meeting this. And again, you might say that they're entitled to being ignorant. But as a community server, we're entitled to make rules. We are, in essence, entitled to revoke other player's entitlements. The exact same way that valve is entitled to change a game we purchased, as they see fit. A sniper limit is a rule that aims to please "the greater good" of the community. The only difference between this and lumping excessive snipers into the griefing clause, is that this is prematurely enforceable. As it stands now, all snipers are discriminated against when there's an excess. This class limit will validated the 2 players who fill the spots. These players will not always be the same. It's not perfect. But I think it's a good idea. You don't, and that's why this is a community and not a dictatorship. I'm not trying usurp legislature. I'm trying to speak on behalf of myself, and other who I know to feel similarly. Just as you are.

I accused you of remaining ignorant to my view as a result of a few retorts that implied it:

• People are not content doing nothing and not winning, you know it, and that is why we are even discussing it here. Your final solution would defeat the point of playing the game, don't you think? If you want to be taken seriously, act like it.
  

• As long as there isn't griefing involved, I applaud a players ability to choose to play to learn or play to the best of their ability, and I don't really think you understand that.
  

• You speak of better odds, but I think you forget that the team with the most snipers is more likely to get the best sniper, regardless of any lottery. They are also more likely to get the worst sniper. These better odds are meaningless in your example.
  

In my last post I went on to better explain myself, so you wouldn't have these misconceptions.

If this isn't what you have been trying to drive home all this time, please let me know. The only reason I didn't say lets agree to disagree in my last response is because it really didn't seem like you grasped what I was saying. I was tempted to, because we don't agree.

I don't expect us to agree. I certainly make clear where we disagree. Similarly, I'd like to explicitly tell you where we're in correspondence. This way, you hopefully won't get the impression that I'm arguing for argument's sake. The reason I said anything at all was simply an effort to directly address anything you've stated. I suppose I could have said 'Okay' instead.

I'm sorry Rambo, but I have to call bullshit on this. I would say that having a good time is more valuable than winning, but winning is winning for a reason. I was content to lose a game last night, because it was such a great game. That doesn't mean I think winning is bad. And I really don't think these feelings of yours are congruent with our player base or reality.

I know this isn't how you feel. It is however the way that most people's arguments are being structured. And you know this:

I would say that having a good time is more valuable than winning, but winning is winning for a reason. I was content to lose a game last night, because it was such a great game.

is something we share. I wanted to make that clear in my previous reply by including:

"I used to LIKE playing on the weaker team. I enjoy when a game is fairly level. And I particularly like being able to have an influence on a team's outcome. Nothing's better than helping a team that wants to win but can't. Even if it's the difference between a score of 10-0 and 10-2. I'm happy."

Happiness isn't anchored to winning. But few will disagree that winning, or losing, has a direct correlation to happiness. Like you said, this is the inherent nature of a game. Again I'll say, that if potentially 11 people are losing, as badly as they are, to accommodate a few selfish players, it diminishes the team's playing experience. An experience that they are equally entitled to.

Ugh, utilitarianism is okay in concept. But it's a deeply flawed philosophy that allows euthanasia of the weak, handicapped, and other invalids, "for the greatest happiness of the most individuals." Proponents still have to decide on the value of other peoples lives and often neglect the benefits that come out of hardship. Sorry, I've had a few run-ins with utilitarianism in the past.

I know it's not perfect. But its application to a game won't have the same degree of repercussions as an application to society. The results are finite and far more predictable.

No, I'm acting as though we are eliminating a players choice to play that class at will. Go ahead, keep putting words in my mouth. I don't mind. I do not believe that winning is everything, and that the frustrating moments in server when a team gets absolutely raped, are not worth the other moments where people get silly and decide there are only three classes to choose from. Sniper, of course, being a favorite.

And I think that is where we are different. IIRC your position is unyieldingly play-to-win. And frankly, there are other ways to enjoy the game than to play competitively 100% of the time.

I've already addressed my stance on winning earlier in this post.

The class limit you endorse will make complete steamrolling less of a problem, but it will do so at the cost of simply having casual fun. And I don't think it's enough of a problem that it warrants limiting peoples fun in every other case.

[Bleck]

A sniper limit is a rule that aims to please "the greater good" of the community.

if I recall correctly

things which no man would dare consider doing for his own selfish sake are perpetrated with a clear conscience by "altruists" who justify themselves by the common good.

essentially you have no right to force somebody to not have fun under the pretense that you're doing it in a heroic fashion

[FireSlash]

things which no man would dare consider doing for his own selfish sake are perpetrated with a clear conscience by "altruists" who justify themselves by the common good.

essentially you have no right to force somebody to not have fun under the pretense that you're doing it in a heroic fashion

I hate Ayn Rand

[EdgeCrusher]

Just out of curiousity, I know the words "casual fun" are getting thrown around here. Whats fun about being on a horrible team who is getting rolled cause you have 4 snipers, 3 spies, and 3 scouts? You can say "oh well tell them to change classes". That hardly ever works, cause mainly everyone is out for themselves and having "casual fun". Sure playing is fun, but frustration from being dominated in every way by a team thats actually somewhat organized compared to a sloppy gung ho team of indiviuals that refuse to partake in the team part of "team fortress" kills the fun. So far having a sniper limit is the best suggestion I can think of, unless someone else wants to sit on the server and try to be Mr Negotiations and Policies and talk to players about how to not suck at this.

[Trianine]

essentially you have no right to force somebody to not have fun under the pretense that you're doing it in a heroic fashion

Okay, it really is nice to see that you guys have some understanding of ethics/philosophy. I am also a bit ashamed to have not read any Ayn Rand. Considering I consider myself an Objectivist.

As for Rambo, I really have nothing left to say on the matter, we disagree, and should agree to do so. I will only summarize by saying that I do not believe the problem to be dire as it is usually self-correcting, and the proposed solution has problems that are beyond players to fix.

Also, thank Clefairy for the vote suggestion, it really is his idea. If considered seriously, it would need a lot of thought to work, I am sure of this. But it has merit as a compromise.

[Trianine]

Just out of curiousity, I know the words "casual fun" are getting thrown around here. Whats fun about being on a horrible team who is getting rolled cause you have 4 snipers, 3 spies, and 3 scouts? You can say "oh well tell them to change classes".

There isn't fun in that. Just like there isn't any fun in being told you are not allowed to have casual fun because of an arbitrary limit.

That hardly ever works, cause mainly everyone is out for themselves and having "casual fun". ... unless someone else wants to sit on the server and try to be Mr Negotiations and Policies and talk to players about how to not suck at this.

Maybe it hardly works because you are being disrespectful to your teammates instead of being constructive, have you thought about that? Part of being a team player is being "Mr Negotiations and Policies" to pick up your team and... make them not suck! Communicate with your team. Don't bitch about how other people are not being team players if you are unwilling to do so yourself.

[FireSlash]

I've talked with Darke a bit on this, as well as read most of the things posted in this thread.

For now I'm NOT going to implement class limits. While I personally support them, the opposition has a valid point, and given what the server's general focus is, class limits do not line up with this.

There have been plans in the works for a second "serious" server where such a thing might be implemented (as well as alltalk off, etc), but we'll see about that.