OCR TF2: New Server forthcoming - new server IPs and other stuff

[Bahamut]

I think I said all that needs to be said. That's not a spawn door. If you think the second door to walk through, which isn't even necessary to walk through is a spawn door, you're seriously mentally retarded. There really is no defense against that, and Atma's counterargument was to basically be a baby and not address that clear bit of reasoning.

However, we can ask the question whether we should ban sticky camping that particular door. It is a bit unfair, but clearly as it stands, it isn't banned as per the rules of the server.

[Meeting_Gman]

Oh, reading that txt file I see why he asked me to leave now. I was totally clueless and left the game heh

[DarkeSword]

I think I said all that needs to be said. That's not a spawn door. If you think the second door to walk through, which isn't even necessary to walk through is a spawn door, you're seriously mentally retarded. There really is no defense against that, and Atma's counterargument was to basically be a baby and not address that clear bit of reasoning.

However, we can ask the question whether we should ban sticky camping that particular door. It is a bit unfair, but clearly as it stands, it isn't banned as per the rules of the server.

I think we should make that particular door a no-camp zone.

[SirChadlyOC]

I think we need to stop thinking, "Is this or is this not a spawn door?" and instead think "Does this prohibit people from fairly being able to counter?"

If there is no other way of going from one place to another except through one small tunnel, hallway or door, then you shouldn't sticky camp there. Just because that tunnel, hallway or door doesn't directly connect to spawn doesn't mean that you can keep people pinned in and force them to push their way through.

There's a big difference between keeping people out (around capture points) and keeping people in (near spawn), and if you don't allow one way to counter getting out (without requiring an uber), then fair play is interrupted and people stop having fun.

With the server numbers dropping consistently, we should try to enable people to have fun, within reason.

[Bahamut]

I think we need to stop thinking, "Is this or is this not a spawn door?" and instead think "Does this prohibit people from fairly being able to counter?"

If there is no other way of going from one place to another except through one small tunnel, hallway or door, then you shouldn't sticky camp there. Just because that tunnel, hallway or door doesn't directly connect to spawn doesn't mean that you can keep people pinned in and force them to push their way through.

There's a big difference between keeping people out (around capture points) and keeping people in (near spawn), and if you don't allow one way to counter getting out (without requiring an uber), then fair play is interrupted and people stop having fun.

With the server numbers dropping consistently, we should try to enable people to have fun, within reason.

But there are certain situations where you have to limit that view though. For example, Dustbowl stage 2, cap 2 is very close to the spawn door...and pushing people back to spawn is a big part of capping that point. If you allow stickies near it, there are still ways to get to that cap, namely rocket/sticky jumping over that fence.

What line would be a good line to draw?

[EdgeCrusher]

How about no kind of sticky camping on doors that roll open that are a major access way within so many feet of a spawn area? IE the badwater door.

[Sensai]

@ Bahamut, in response to your example: By the time BLU has pushed RED back that far (to the point of literally bombing the doors), they've already won. I honestly cannot think of a single time where they've been able to bomb the door and not won.

Also, and this is dangerous I know, but I gotta agree with Atmuh here: sure, it's not technically a spawn door (and, TBH, there're other ways to get back to that point), but...it's still pretty dumb. So, it's not technically illegal, but still pissy. I'm not sure how you would ammend the rules to fix this (as, like Baha pointed out, it's not an uncommon scenario to have doors/areas like this), but...it probably needs to be fixed, or at least given some serious thought.

Also, I'd like to propose that spawn camping of all kind (for an extended amount of time, mind you, not simply a Spy waiting for one kill at spawn) should be outlawed. Sure, there are plenty of ways to counter it (like I've stated before, I don't have a problem with sticky camping either), but...it seems like the general consensus is that it's not appreciated. The only people I see who are defending it are Bahamut and the rest of ZUZ.

[Dhsu]

I'm gonna have to vote yes on 8...errr, I mean yes on banning both sticky-camping the shortcut and sentry-camping the spawn on Badwater. They're both way too easy to pull off in comparison to how hard it is to counter. If ZUZ objects to that reasoning, I'd be happy to hear their arguments.

[Powerlord]

@ Bahamut, in response to your example: By the time BLU has pushed RED back that far (to the point of literally bombing the doors), they've already won. I honestly cannot think of a single time where they've been able to bomb the door and not won.

Also, and this is dangerous I know, but I gotta agree with Atmuh here: sure, it's not technically a spawn door (and, TBH, there're other ways to get back to that point), but...it's still pretty dumb. So, it's not technically illegal, but still pissy. I'm not sure how you would ammend the rules to fix this (as, like Baha pointed out, it's not an uncommon scenario to have doors/areas like this), but...it probably needs to be fixed, or at least given some serious thought.

Also, I'd like to propose that spawn camping of all kind (for an extended amount of time, mind you, not simply a Spy waiting for one kill at spawn) should be outlawed. Sure, there are plenty of ways to counter it (like I've stated before, I don't have a problem with sticky camping either), but...it seems like the general consensus is that it's not appreciated. The only people I see who are defending it are Bahamut and the rest of ZUZ.

RED's spawn on Badwater has the following notable features:

1. The lower spawn point is not used until point B is taken.

2. The right door of the upper spawn room is locked until point B is taken.

3. The stairs outside and to the right of the unlocked door of the upper spawn room are blocked with a huge arrow sign until point B is taken.

4. The second stairs outside the unlocked entrance of the upper spawn room have a gate that is closed until point C is taken.

5. The far door outside the unlocked entrance of the upper spawn room is a RED-only door that locks after point B is taken.

Because of the above, for all intents and purposes, that far door is a second spawn door. Number 5 in that list is particularly relevant, as it shows that Valve considers it to be a spawn door.

The problem with sticky camping in general is that you have no way of knowing if there are stickies behind a door until you open the door or they're set off. Combined with respawn waves, it's almost guaranteed to kill off everyone who respawned at the same time... at least the first time.

Also, isn't it a bit extreme banning Atmuh from the server over the IRC thing?

[Dhsu]

Well the rule has been amended to "no sticky-camping opaque doors" in the MotD. That's not completely accurate since camping the doors in Turbine and Well is perfectly fine, but it's good for now. I'd rather people err on the no-camping side anyway.

Also I finally got to hear Brushfire's Arena commentary tonight which made me a happy, happy man.

[duckyboycantfly]

It should be a server event when Rambo starts playing. Also, I strongly believe, if at all possible, that there should be a gravity vote option for us lesser-whatever "admins" pay people...

Also, everybody groans when Zahn comes. We all know the fun is over. But still, they (ZUZ) are incredibly competitive, and sniping with pavlvs reminds me of the good ole days with presh.

But jesus christ bitching about medic chaining? I knew there was a reason why I never came to these boards. It's all in good fun people. Sure, sometimes things get one sided, but shit happens. Everyone knows ZUZ is funkillers, (minus wish, I find him to be a pretty okay guy, and of course baha~), but bitching about them is something else. And the day I start taking atmuh's opinion seriously is the day that I quit the internet.

Also, I'm excited for atmuh's "fuck OCR and ReMod's server" server.

[DarkeSword]

3. The stairs outside and to the right of the unlocked door of the upper spawn room are blocked with a huge arrow sign until point B is taken.

You can still jump over the railing and go around. The second door is not a spawn door.

Also, isn't it a bit extreme banning Atmuh from the server over the IRC thing?

He shows absolutely no maturity when it comes to this stuff. Did you see him yesterday in the IRC channel? He was whining and acting like a little baby, constantly calling Wes an idiot.

Look, I agree that it's a shitty tactic to sticky-camp that particular door. I think it should be against the rules. But that doesn't mean I'm going to start yelling and screaming in the IRC channel, constantly whining about how nobody banned the players doing it. The point is that technically it's not against the rules yet, so we can't ban players for doing it until we make it against the rules; and if we want to make it against the rules, that's fine, we'll talk about it. But there's no reason to start that all-caps whining bullshit Atma was doing last night, calling Wes an idiot, begging for admin powers, saying "SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE IMED ME COMPLAINING." Why people are complaining to Atma, of all people, is totally beyond me.

As for the new rule, how's this:

Don't sticky-camp a door you can't go through. BLU can't go through the second door on RED's spawn. It's got a NO sign on it, so that means NO STICKIES.

Fair enough?

[Bahamut]

Also, isn't it a bit extreme banning Atmuh from the server over the IRC thing?

Not at all - these types of outbursts are all too common with him, and it often goes like this:

1) He finds a problem

2) He fails to identify the problem abstractly

3) He decides on an arbitrary solution & by far not the optimal solution

4) Calls others idiots instead of trying to address the original problem or work with others for the best solution

This type of idiotic thinking causes more problems than worth dealing with, especially after I've just been through being virtually incapacitated for a week from sickness & the daily stress of my busy life. Anyone who ever have complaints should take note, because excepting #1, this line of thought process is what many would call being stupid, socially retarded, childish, undisciplined, etc. and it only serves to create more problems than the original problem that was sought out to be remedied.

Working with others for a solution is a life skill for crying out loud, and I can't believe I have to outline this for a certain few others who are arrogant enough to believe that those who are outside of the regular OCR community are not necessarily cordial enough to work with you.

Edit: And the question I originally wanted to ask - should we change the map rotation? It currently is:

cp_dustbowl

pl_badwater

cp_granary

pl_goldrush

ctf_2fort

pl_cave_b6

cp_gravelpit

pl_badwater

cp_well

pl_dustbowl_b4

cp_steel

pl_goldrush

ctf_turbine

In addition, I updated the motd to include banning of sticky spawn camping period, even defense doing it to offense.

[zircon]

I'd like to put in my two cents... I've been playing at times where some sort of stupid strategy that wasn't against the rules ended up rolling my team over and over. I know I haven't played much lately, but I HAVE played enough to know that times like that are really just unenjoyable. It's one thing to win ONE match using a tactic like that, but on Turbine for example my team got pwnt 3 or 4 times with the exact same method. And it wasn't even that teams were stacked... I think I had the highest points as Soldier.

With regards to last night, I wasn't on, so I don't know exactly what happened in terms of team balance etc. But it did sound really shitty. I'm an admin here and frankly I would have done something. Much like the way we handle things on the OCR forums - adjudicating based on the spirit of the rules, not just the exact letter - I think that's how things should be done on the server. No, that door wasn't a spawn door, but I don't think the situation needed to play out as it did before anything was done or even discussed.

I don't think atmuh should be banned from here. I'm the last person you'd expect to defend him, since he kills me over and over in game and has caused countless headaches for me on these forums. But even that being said, I know that he IS just trying to improve the server. That doesn't mean stuff that only benefits him. I've seen him get dominated by players like Joseki over and over again and he doesn't complain. His mistake was in the presentation of the problem as Wes pointed out but his anger was at least understandable (whether it was justified or not is debatable.)

So, I don't think he should be banned. I also think that we (as admins) need to pay more attention to the spirit as well as the letter of the rules. I have played a lot of TF2 and I know what it's like to be on a losing team getting rolled. It's frustrating, but tolerable. However, some tactics used by superior teams and players are exceedingly difficult to counter without similar levels of skill, and it's really beyond frustrating to deal with that.

[Blue123]

Okay, well, my ID is andy266, so I guess I'll be popping in once in a while.

[Dhsu]

Welcome to the server.

I am going to agree with zircon, and add that saying it's not a "spawn door" borders on semantics. In my opinion it is completely analogous to the shortcut doors on Dustbowl 3 and Goldrush 3. They're shortcuts, and they close after a certain point is capped, they can be circumvented by taking a much longer route, but that does not justify sticky-camping them. The problem is especially exacerbated on Badwater by the fact that it's so open that a demo can very easily jump over enemy lines to get to it, and the door is far enough behind the front lines that you'd have to waste a sentry for the sole purpose of protecting it.

[Bahamut]

I'd like to put in my two cents... I've been playing at times where some sort of stupid strategy that wasn't against the rules ended up rolling my team over and over. I know I haven't played much lately, but I HAVE played enough to know that times like that are really just unenjoyable. It's one thing to win ONE match using a tactic like that, but on Turbine for example my team got pwnt 3 or 4 times with the exact same method. And it wasn't even that teams were stacked... I think I had the highest points as Soldier.

What happened on turbine? I can't recall anyone posting anything in particular about what happened that time so I have no clue .

[duckyboycantfly]

something youd be perfectly ok with

I don't know where this guy is coming from, but I really seem to like him. Hey, you should stay around and post some more. And play with us sometime! We even have an IRC client you can chat on if you'd like.

But man, I hope you aren't like that atmuh fag he sucks.

[zircon]

What happened on turbine? I can't recall anyone posting anything in particular about what happened that time so I have no clue .

Well, even though the team I was on had some great player (we generally led in points), a couple of ZUZ guys and other players would switch to engy and immediately build teleporters & sentries right outside our vents, so they immediately had complete control over the middle. We tried spies, heavies, demos, ubers, but could not break through. They had too many engies and people guarding the sentries for us to be able to take care of them without a significantly greater level of skill/coordination on our part. We also tried to stop this at the beginning of the match to no avail.

They rolled us with this strategy three or possibly four times (can't remember.) We basically didn't score and were locked in our base. Every time we asked them to stop, they claimed it was a legit tactic and that we just weren't doing enough to counter it. I ended up quitting before the maps even changed out of frustration.

[EdgeCrusher]

Awww, atmuh posted deleted

Anyway, I do love the whole "legit tactic" argument that gets thrown out by ZUZ guys when you do bring up something like that with them. I was thrown the same bone when I brought up regular demo sticky camping of spawn doors and the sentry camping above the spawn door on badwater by vahn. Really, come up with a better reason to do it.

[Dhsu]

Yeah I can understand the "legit tactics" rationale, but legit != fun. Is it fun to roll a team four times in a row with the same cheese strategy?

Again if it's sooo easy to counter (besides trying to keep you from doing it in the first place which completely fails if you get a crit or two), please enlighten us.

[SirChadlyOC]

+1 Don't ban Atmuh from the OCR server. He has Scene and Vibe.

[alex.exe]

Hey guys. This is freebeer. I was playing on the server last night, and I really liked it. Seemed very fun, lots o' lols, and great games. I decided that I would like to start playing with you guys more often, and you will see me around on the forums too. It was actually kind of weird, becuase I had been to this site before and it was a while before I realized it. Anyways, see you guys around.

steam id: jordon77

ps: brushfire commentary is ftw

[Dyne]

I'm apt to agree not only with zircon, Dhsu and Edge, but also with atmuh; though you guys already know how much angst he brings me. Despite that, he's got a point. They all do. It's not fun to play on any server, save tournament servers, where you're getting cheesed by a strategy that doesn't even let you out of your own base, and if it does, it takes you until the opposing team has hit the second, maybe the third cap.

So yeah, I too think sticky/spawn camping should be banned, and not atmuh. I also believe that teams should not be stacked. To be fair, on a full server, you're going to have a mix of teams with ZUZ, OCR, etc... on both sides in pairs or triples. That's fine. But having an entire team made up of one or the other sucks, and should not be allowed.

Otherwise, I enjoyed playing on the server for as long as I had been. I was not fortunate enough to be there when atmuh was banned, nor have I played for the last month, at least until today, but really, before all this crap hit the fan, I had a great time on the server, and it was the awesomest thing I looked forward to when I would come home from work.

So yeah. That's my two cents. Disect it all you want.

[Sensai]

Either I'm having the weirdest form of deja vu ever (actually, I've never had deja vu. I've always wanted to, though), or duckyboy had posted something after Dyne. Look at this sig or something to that affect.

Is there any reason it was deleted (baleeted, deltaco, Homestar, etc)?

Oh, and to the Americans here: let's hear it for the new president! Huzzah!