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Liontamer

WIP-Releases: Feedback, Discussion + ?s

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#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

1. Let's see... yep to all of the ones you've listed. I haven't visited the irc channel in ages, but I've popped in from time to time.

2. When I post a WIP, I mainly want criticism and advice. Encouragement, or something telling me that they 'like it' without offering anything else, is nice, and I appreciate it, but it won't really help in the long run. (I know I'm guilty of doing that, but only when I genuinely feel there's nothing I can offer.)

3. Typically it's the game or source tune. If I'm familiar with what's being remixed, I'm feel more inclined to leave comments and offer suggestions.

4. Can't really think of anything offhand. Some of the suggestions you've listed are pretty good ideas, but I'm not sure if they'd be worth the effort.

5.

The only thing that I don't like receiving is when I specifically mention that something isn't done, and then get responses where they only mention how that one thing isn't done. ugh.
Other than that, I can't think of anything else.

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I think this is outrageous. I have been downloading from OC Remix for years. I have never gotten INVOLVED in this community, but I have enjoyed hundreds of remixes and have several different folders for remix sets.

I have zero remixes from Hoboka, who apparently has a lot of drive to get something accepted. That's a pretty big failure IMO. I'm glad there wasn't a judges panel with super high standards to tell just starting remixers "this doesn't fit with the mainstream of what other remix songs sound like" back when this site was not as full and as followed as it is today. Maybe that's why there is a panel though to keep it from getting overloaded. I don't care what judges like, I care what I like.

:sleepzzz:

Sorry, what was the point of posting all that? This is a thread about improving the WIP review process, not to crap on the Panel. :?

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Darke, why don't you follow the example of the nice judges who've taken the time to answer my lil survey? It's nice to see that you care about this thread so much that you want it to stay on topic, but it puzzles me to see you merely moderating and not actually participating.

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Sure.

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

1) Yes. I've never had a problem finding things, even when I was starting out here, oh so long ago.

2) Just a general opinion. I don't really use the WiP for feedback, just for releases.

3) I don't really review. I don't have a lot of time too, plus I'm a Judge so when I do find time I prioritize the queue.

4) I think people just need to try to use this place more; I think the open, normal forum aspect of it hurts. People would give more feedback if they had a more structured system to follow, and that's something we're looking into staff-side.

5) A few things:

  • I don't like it when people say "I don't comment on the WiP board because I don't feel like I can give good feedback." There's only one way to learn how to do that, and it's to just sit down and do it. It's alright if you can't articulate yourself well in the beginning; you'll learn how to do that with practice.
  • I also don't like it when people use the WiP board to post their work for feedback, but at the same time criticize OCR, its standards, and its staff (i.e. the Judges Panel). That's very rude. OCR provides this forum as a courtesy to you so that you can get your music out there for the world to hear without having to wait. You can dislike the site, the staff, the standards, or even certain individuals, but please, if you're going use this forum, keep it to yourself. In other words: if you're invited to someone's house for dinner, don't go there and eat the food, but insult the cook and host. Show some courtesy and appreciation.
  • People should respect the wishes of the original poster and make sure they read what the original post says before listening to the song and posting away. Few examples: if I say "This is a release, I'm not working on this anymore, please enjoy," don't reply with a list of things I should change; I said it was done. Another: If I say, "This is only halfway through the song; that's not how it's going to end; it's going to be a lot longer. I'm just looking for feedback on style, soundscape, and production," don't tell me, "The ending just cuts off! You should write a real ending!" Please pay attention to what the artist wants.

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I think this is outrageous. I have been downloading from OC Remix for years. I have never gotten INVOLVED in this community, but I have enjoyed hundreds of remixes and have several different folders for remix sets.

I have zero remixes from Hoboka, who apparently has a lot of drive to get something accepted. That's a pretty big failure IMO. I'm glad there wasn't a judges panel with super high standards to tell just starting remixers "this doesn't fit with the mainstream of what other remix songs sound like" back when this site was not as full and as followed as it is today. Maybe that's why there is a panel though to keep it from getting overloaded. I don't care what judges like, I care what I like.

:sleepzzz:

Luckily, I don't care what you like, as you obviously have no standards. :lol: "I want to have my music posted here because this place is popular and people will hear it" is not the standard.

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Luckily, I don't care what you like, as you obviously have no standards. :lol: "I want to have my music posted here because this place is popular and people will hear it" is not the standard.

In the WiP forum it is. ;-)

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For the WIP boards, that better be the only standard.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Question #1 is not applicable to me.

Questions for everyone on the wip board:

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

Criticism.

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

If it's on the panel, 99% of the time I'll be critiquing it. I just enjoy helping people create good music. People hollering at me on IRC might get a response, but I'm always busy, so I spend my time judging. Some people seeking more judge presence on the WIP boards don't seem to understand that the judges have lives and can't be judges and WIP reviewers at the same time.

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

If you have the mindset and familiarity with the standards like a judge, you'll be able to help people more, but also appreciate the music more. That's why we encourage using the checklist, comparing vs. the original piece. It's gives nearly every problem a mix will encounter, and can help you hone in on those issues to make your critique better. Wise up and use the checklist as a reference point, read judges decisions, and try to understand why mixes passed and failed.

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

Lack of participation, but this thread is partially for feedback on how to work on that. I'd never push for an idea like official WIP critics, because that adds another leave of bureaucracy that we absolutely don't need.

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so basically Lion, this entire thread is now moot?? :S

Oh and Gibbs, thanks for the support, but I hate to admit that Liontamer's right. It's more of a failure of mine, because I'm a slow learner - which makes me sound two-faced here, but that's how it is.

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I've come to the conclusion that honestly, the only thing that can save the WIP boards (whether or not they need saving is another debate) is more judge interaction. Outside of the actual judge posts, there's never any actual feedback on the WIP boards. It's almost as if most simply ignore it.

You can get some good advice from amateurs like me, but when it comes to the real pros, their presence is pretty much absent.

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Then again, if you want the judges' opinion, just submit the remix. That way they don't really have a choice not to comment on it. It takes a lot longer to get comments that way, but if the judges were able to comment on songs more quickly than they do now I'd rather see that time spent on cutting the queue, not comments on the wip board. WiP was never for the judges. I'd like to see more oc remixers post here though - most of us who hang around here have no remixes on the site, which means that the skill level stays pretty much the same. If there were more oc remixers around, maybe they could help the less gifted of us to improve, but when no one knows what they're talking about, much less what the other guy is talking about, well... this is all speculative though. Maybe I'm totally wrong. I still don't think the judges can be blamed for whatever's going on here (but they probably have more and better ideas on how to improve on whatever issues the wip forum may have than most others).

I guess once people get good enough at remixing to get their shit past the panel, they don't need the wip forum anymore, and/or are no longer interested in it. That's the feeling I get, anyway. And, yeah, there are a number of ocremixers here, but most people here are just regular guys.

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Strangely, Nekofrog seems to have missed most of my posts, and those of other listeners. There is currently quite a lot of activity (by comparison), but it's not of the quality it should be.

I do agree with Nekofrog tho, I think the solution involves the Js, one way or another. One post per judge per month or two, even a short post should clarify the standards for those of us that are here as well as provide some quality feedback, without taking away much judging time.

(It should be noted that last time I brought up the fuzzy bar, I got some crap for it, implying I don't read the JDs and the standards and listening to recently posted remixes. Where are the people to whom the bar is obvious? I don't see them on the wip board.)

Dafydd suggests another solution, but it comes down to the lack of incentive to critique. There's no incentive for ocremixers to critique stuff here, so most of them don't. Not after they're psoted.

Come to think of it, why do _I_ critique stuff here? I don't use the forum for my own wips because I don't think there's much the forum can offer me. Some time ago, in a need to vent, I wrote a letter to the staff of ocr. Didn't send it, but I'd like to share the core of it:

I feel unappreciated. I feel like I'm spending precious hours commenting on wips that nobody cares about in a forum nobody cares about. Why do I take on 20 wips a week? I'm not sure anymore.

That being said, I'm not planning to stop any time soon, but it does feel like the efforts of those critiquing wips here aren't appreciated by the Js.

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Dafydd suggests another solution, but it comes down to the lack of incentive to critique. There's no incentive for ocremixers to critique stuff here, so most of them don't. Not after they're psoted.

Yeah. Also regarding the judges decisions - it's pretty hard to understand why a mix got noed if the link is deleted so you can't listen to mix. I understand why the links are removed, but that doesn't make it easier to understand why a mix has been rejected.

The way I see it the wip board's main purpose is to lessen the work for the judges, or at least for whoever insta-rejects the really bad submissions. You simply let the ocr forumers to the judging for you, and this is a good thing, I think. The problem is that since so few of us are ocremixers ourselves, very few of us set the bar as high as the judges do and so we are unable to tell a poster whether his mix is ready to be submitted or not. There are few really terrible mixes posted here, and those who truly suck at remixing will probably submit their shit anyway, regardless what kind of feedback they get from this forum. The only time I've seen some real activity in this thread was when I posted a remix that had been rejected by the panel. That time I specifically asked the panel to elaborate on why it didn't pass. It ended up being a little judgehate-ish, unfortunately. I think this is about the only time that you would need judge activity here - how else would I be able to discuss the rejection with the judges? It's not like I can post in the JD thread.

Another thing is how a game's popularity is so important to how much attention it gets on the wip board. Forumers need incentive to comment. I don't know how they panel works, but I assume that most judges vote on the oldest remix in the queue rather than whichever one they feel like. A lot of times, people comment on wip they're interested in hearing. I sometimes comment on wips that have no comments yet simply because I feel sorry for whoever posted them. But other than guilt and the promise of hearing something you want to hear, what other incentive does a forum-goer have to comment on a mix? If it's from a game you've never heard of, and it doesn't sound that interesting anyway, why bother? In a perfect world, we'd all be commenting on everything because we're altruistic angels, but that's not how it actually works. I'm getting a lot of comments on my warcraft II wip, and judging by the comments themselves I'm pretty sure it's because it's a well-known, well liked soundtrack, one which has no coverage here yet. It's also a pretty good wip, I think, but had it been a remix of a completely unknown game, most people wouldn't have bothered listening to it and finding out whether it sucked or not. If it had stunk, and if it had been a remix of a completely unknown game, I wouldn't have had any more than 3 comments by now - 2 of which would be my own bumps.

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Yeah, I know what Dafydd means. A while ago I'd posted a WiP from an obscure game, and my mix really was shit. The only response I remember getting was one from OA, and that's all. I think he's probably one of the 3 people who knew the game/track, and the only one who posted to it.

Though honestly, if no one knows the source material, then it's really hard to say what kind of justice was done for it. Everyone and their mother knows Final Fantasy music, and Nintendo music for the most part. Those are the two that get the most frequent responses, because everyone knows what it would sound like off the top of their heads. If someone decided to do something from King's Field or Dungeon Explorer, it's much less likely that anyone will remember the games or care that you decided to do the most hardcore songs in the games. Shows why FFX will always get more responses than Parasol Stars, even if Parasol Stars was more fun to play and easily more of a blast to remix.

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It's evident from the responses I've been getting to my lil survey that people prefer commenting on remixes of familiar games' sountracks. There are a few of us that choose to critique a remix of an obscure game/soundtreack, and then it's mostly because nobody else has. I don't hink that's gonna change without some obtrusive overhauling of the wip board.

I've been thinking a bit about what Darke said about the open forum hurting the feedback a bit. I can see the benefits of a feedback wizard - like setup/install programs - where the feedback checklist is something of a form that you fill in. Integrating that with hosting, standardized thread names, and a form entry for source link(s) and it'd be great, but this is something that requires a lot of coding to work. Unfortunately, it doesn't give listeners the ability to hear the problems with it. I've got a few less taxing suggestions in my list in post#2.

Would be nice to know what the ocr staff are planning.

While on the topic of the checklist, giving it a button could get more people to use it. A button like the ones between the title box and the message box on the reply page. When you click it, it pastes in a checklist that you can fill in. Could improve the feedback a bit, and it'd be convenient if it didn't have to be copypasted manually.

This should probably be suggested to djp.

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Those are both good ideas Rozo; I think that the hard work they'd require would pay off in the long run.

Even then, if that's a no-go, then the judges (or other moderators) can delete ppl's OCR accounts who don't take any time at all to critique ;-D. Which would probably be hard work all of its own...this is tough, ug.

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Then people would just spam the forum to fill their quota.

Oh, Rozovian - I didn't see your post about ChipAmp and Mac before - Audio Overload should do the job for you. Hah, I didn't even have to look that up, despite never having owned a Mac. Tells you how much time I've spent on zophar...

Anyway, I had another idea - it would be cool if the threads in the wip forum could be sorted after the number of posts in them - that way it would be a lot easier to find the threads that have no or very few replies. Another thing would be if the the thread title would be written in red (or the thread icon more of an eyecatcher) for threads that either have no replies or only replies from the op (bumps). That way they're more easily spotted.

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What post about chipamp? And I know about Audio Overload. Doesn't play the chip files downloaded from ocr, tho. Last time I checked, anyway.

As for sorting threads, it's possible, but it'll sort all normal threads in the normal display age, regardless of how recent they are. There's almost 2 months old stuff on the page when sorted like that.

Good idea, but post age needs to be limited. Personally, I don't see the problem with just scrolling down, looking at the number in the replies box.

As for marking threads without feedback with red, it's not that far off from my idea for flagging threads as having been updated. Takes a bit of coding no matter what, but I'll add it to my list of suggestions. Later.

lol, Alex, deleting accounts. :D I know I'd be safe, tho, so maybe I should support that idea? Maybe not.

But thanks. I hope the ocrstaff knows what they're doing. Up to some kind of official mischief, I reckon.

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lol, Alex, deleting accounts. :D I know I'd be safe, tho, so maybe I should support that idea? Maybe not.

DELETE THEM ALL!!! buahahaha, then from the ashes of deletion, shall arise a new site - No Elitist Judges Are Us.com!! Or NEJAS.com ;)

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Hah, I've never noticed thread sorting was possible before. Cool.

On the other hand though, imagine having posted something 2 months ago and still not have any replies on it... Think I'm gonna have to go samaritan on this one.

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DELETE THEM ALL!!! buahahaha, then from the ashes of deletion, shall arise a new site - No Elitist Judges Are Us.com!! Or NEJAS.com ;)

Hoboka, I'm going to say this as nicely as I can.

Knock it off, please.

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DELETE THEM ALL!!! buahahaha, then from the ashes of deletion, shall arise a new site - No Elitist Judges Are Us.com!! Or NEJAS.com ;)

Why don't you just post your stuff on thasauce instead? They're not as picky.

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All Your Elitist Js Are Belong To Us. :D

And the standards are fine, and most of the judges are great (the rest would get a conditional yes or no(resub) from me). The standards are an inconvenience, but also an incentive to improve.

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lol

no (resub) a judge? Hmmmm.

EDIT: Come to think of it, wasn't that pretty much what the panel itself did with Shael Riley? ... vague memory there. Bah. Whatever.

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