Super Metroid / Metroid Prime Remix

[Meteo Xavier]

Update: 9/3/09

I have decided to remove this WIP link and information regarding it as I no longer consider it material for fair judicial review. Thank you.

[rig1015]

I always feel silly crit-'ing a contributor who already has an Artist profile for OCR, anyway...

My 1st crit is increase tempo. But that is me... if just feels slow.

Rigid sequencing... all I hear on that is that your patterns, I can set my watch to. Very grid like. Go listen to some African drums for syncopated rhythm.

Your starting kick is fine, but the 4 on the floor kick should hit harder in the mid-hi's; harder EQing should help here.

Mixing Mid-low... no shine in your mix. I ran your MP3 through my one of my EQ plugs (PSP Master Q) and suddenly your whole track glittered. If you want to see the settings I used click here. You can try mixing with these target freqs in mind (what instruments hit those freqs), or you can just drop the plug settings on the bounced file. I'd have to play with your session to know for sure.

As for the choir... well I have an SE-5600z as well as about 4 SM58's I would just go bribe a church choir, I'm doing it that way for my WIP Prime dance remix. Just an FYI if you do this choirs hate singing "ah" for every note so bare that in mind.

BUT Your choir sounds fine to me, so I think the judges are being a little to insistent on real. Sometimes we use the chip tune sound FOR the chip tune sound, same is true for your choir. It sounds more believable when you use a closer to the original sound... at least IMO. ... ... *thinks more on choir* ... I would do both methods and blend them together, actually.

Poor clap snare: yeah this sucks... use a different sample. If you want I can make you some. The million $$$ questions with snares are you looking for a rock sounding snare or a Phil Collins explosion snare? If you want to keep what you have try hard Compression, sharp EQ, and Reverb ran through a Gating might land you on your feet.

Sound Bleeding... um, turn everything down to -inf and rebuild your mix keeping your choir quieter this time around, I guess. Your reverb sounded fine to me.

The melody and instruments felt in my face but the rhythm section does not. If I were a judge that is all I would ask you to fix (and the tempo) and say re-sub.

Hope I help Meteo.

EDIT:

This track is awesome as is. Don't let tiny crits bug you too much... the judges should've said yes IMO.

[Nubioso]

The kick definitely needs to be brought up a little more with more "oomph" behind it. Like Rig said, EQ'ing can fix most of your issues here.

That lead sine wave sounding synth you got throughout the whole thing is too forward in the mix and should be brought back. I just think it sticks out WAY too much. I keep wanting to turn up my speakers to hear more bass from the kick and bassline, but wind up not turning it up because that lead just rings out and hurts my ears too much.

The verb on the chorus probably could come down just a little bit. It does start to melt into everything and sound a little sloppy at points.

The snare/clap is just really thin sounding. If you're going to use a clap, it just needs to have more SMACK behind it, if you're using a snare, (and I know this sounds weird) some of the low end in the snare is needed for that effective punch to bring it through the mix...by low end I'm referring in the 250Hz range. Putting a compressor on a snare with a fast attack, fast release, and a fairly low ratio (IE 1.5:1) can help bring the piercing attack back and smooth the whole thing out and give you a nice punchy snare.

All in all:

Bring kick up in volume, the kick itself sounds like it's pretty good, just needs to be louder...

Snare/Clap should also be brought up a little and overall made a little more prominent with a little more punch to it as well.

Lead sine wave synth brought DOWN.

Choir vox verb down a little

Other than a few production issues, I think it is a really nice song. Hell, I'm still waiting for my song to (hopefully) get passed, so we'll see if I'm even worthy enough myself!

Good luck man

[Meteo Xavier]

Before this gets any further, I just want to emphasize that this is not a Judge-bashing thread by any means, I just didn't understand their criticisms, but I hope to address them anyway.

[progressive]

It's late and I don't have time for a proper listen with headphones, but from what I heard, this sounds great. You've come up with a nice sound, and I think you did an excellent job of splicing S.Metroid and Prime together. After the three minute mark, though, it does start to get a bit repetitive. I'll check in later when I'm not nodding off.

[rig1015]

Before this gets any further, I just want to emphasize that this is not a Judge-bashing thread by any means, I just didn't understand their criticisms, but I hope to address them anyway.

Nothing but love for the judges... God knows they have a hard enough job. But I hear ya'

[Orpheon]

The audio sources and tune sets from Prime are brilliantly integrated with the theme from Super Metroid here - however I can see the judges point of view (or sound in this case) in terms of the variation.

For example, you introduce the source from Chozo Ruins at 4:02 which sounded perfect - yet it was too late into the piece. I think if you're going to go to the trouble of including it, integrate it earlier on so as to captivate and keep the listener holding onto their cans. It'll do wonders. At this point it would probably be more important to establish the whole piece as something unique instead of making it feel like something you would hear in-game.

I know exactly what you mean when you say you want this to be in a Metroid Prime structure - most of the MP soundtrack revolved around the idea of repeating cues with subsequent compositions in between. Although since one would hear such music while exploring and playing a game, the repetition wouldn't be as noticeable as if, say, one were to just hear the music alone.

Try adding and mixing more of your own original tunes based off the source as well, usually will add enough variety to throw off the unsuspecting critic. Other than the technical specifics mentioned by the judges, I do not think you really have to change a lot -> just your perspective of this piece and how deep / personal you want to make it.

Also: Suggestion for the name

-> Siriacus Calling (Zero Hour Epoch), or

Siriacus Calling (Prime Epoch)

Referencing Space Pirate Data - Fall of Zebes

[Meteo Xavier]

For example, you introduce the source from Chozo Ruins at 4:02 which sounded perfect - yet it was too late into the piece. I think if you're going to go to the trouble of including it, integrate it earlier on so as to captivate and keep the listener holding onto their cans. It'll do wonders. At this point it would probably be more important to establish the whole piece as something unique instead of making it feel like something you would hear in-game.

The problem with doing that is it defeats the whole purpose of making it a fun little cameo to capitalize on the whole concept of the mix. That was the whole point of putting it in, a fun little surprise for the end.

I know exactly what you mean when you say you want this to be in a Metroid Prime structure - most of the MP soundtrack revolved around the idea of repeating cues with subsequent compositions in between. Although since one would hear such music while exploring and playing a game, the repetition wouldn't be as noticeable as if, say, one were to just hear the music alone.

A fair point, which is why it doesn't completely deliver as a full on Metroid Prime take in execution, however I really didn't think it would come off too repetitive. I kept it sequenced simply for a reason - mostly because it is just easier to do it that way but also because I didn't want to set a precedent with my mixes and fall into trademarks - like my pechant for building crests and meandering song structures and cymbal crashes, etc like I did with Yggdrasil. I wanted to sequence this way on purpose because its not a song structure I usually do.

Try adding and mixing more of your own original tunes based off the source as well, usually will add enough variety to throw off the unsuspecting critic. Other than the technical specifics mentioned by the judges, I do not think you really have to change a lot -> just your perspective of this piece and how deep / personal you want to make it.

Well, the perspective needs to change, but I'm afraid to fuck with it too much as is because Larry's pretty microscopic on source tune and because I'm sure it will ruin the track. I can probably fit some more stuff in and around the track, but the central pillar needs to stay.

Mostly I'd like to know exactly WHAT is repetitive that needs to be changed or taken out. The clap I'm already aware of, what else?

Also, I appreciate the effort with the title suggestions, but none of those really appeal, especially since I already having a mix called "Yggdrasil Speaks To Me" which is structurally the same as your suggestion. I appreciate it all the same.

[Rozovian]

I get what they're saying about the clap loop, and I don't get what you were thinking with when you did the panning of it. On the whole, the percussion is a weak point here.

The arrangement works for me. The soundscape is cool, but the overall sound could use a little more focus. When you have a lead there, it's easily obscured by all the stuff going on under it. The only reason it stands out atm is that it's a few octaves higher than everything else.

The instrumentation overall, aside from the percussion, is fine with me, tho for something as prominently used as the choir you might want to look for a new choir. You could also do well to emphasize the source a little more in some places, bring in some strong instrument to accentuate or punctuate parts.

More room for the lead and better percussion (and the appropriate mixing to make the percussion strong and fit in). The rest of the judges' crits don't bother me much, tho they're not saying it for no reason.

I'm not surprised this got rejected, but I am surprised you subbed it in this condition. maybe hanging out on the wip board critting ppl would do your ears some good.

[progressive]

Alright, after a thorough listen, I can honestly say "wtf." I can name at least three mixes on the front page that don't deserve to be there. I do support the judges decision to have you resub this, but hell, what a double standard. Anyway, I'd say the problems aren't as numerous as you might think. The lead is fine, although at that frequency it becomes more of an ambient noise. You can't afford to make it more piercing, so I think it works fine. You might try breaking things up in the middle with some sort of solo with a different instrument. The clap fades into the soundscape - I don't know why they had such a problem with it. As I said, there have been some real craptastic tunes on the front page, so go figure. Tempo is fine, fix the balance on the EQ and bring out the bass thump a little more and resub it. You can only hope they don't NO you for something like the title next time.

[psychophan7]

Word of warning: Take what I have to say with a few grains of salt, because I have no idea what I'm talking about from any standpoint.

The choirs seems a bit muddied at times, such as at the beginning (~0:04), like playing two (or more) notes at the same time and making a sound that isn't really clear and doesn't know what it wants to be. The choir also gets kind of boring after the first minute or so. If you can bring out the sound, diversify it somehow, and make it all around seem more natural, then it would sound much more intersting, imo.

Overall, I can hear the source Brinstar stuff, but I don't think it's adding a whole lot to the mix. I feel like it's playing second fiddle to the choir and lead instead of having an equal part. It doesn't sound like there's enough bass in the mix, so if you kicked the bass on the source up a notch, maybe brought something to the lower end of the bass spectrum, then you can make it better.

I like what you have going on from 2:07 to 2:56. I don't know if this is what you were going for, but it seems like it wants to be all one section, but it got broken into three parts: 2:07-2:23, 2:23-2:39, 2:39-2:56. As a whole, it could be improved by making it truly one section instead of three pieces trying to be one section. The original stuff you added is good, but I feel it dwarfs the source material, while at the same time like it wants to bring some MP into the mix; Maybe incorporate Chozo Ruins with this section instead of the end?

On the ending: You could cut out the Chozo Ruins bit at the end, and nothing would be lost from the mix. It's cool that it's there, but it doesn't add anything, as if it's there just to be there. You could end the song at 4:21, too (before cutting the CR bit out), because the next 10 seconds don't really fit in any spectacular way. The fade out could probably do with being a second or two shorter, as well.

Overall, it's a good mix, but it's not awesome.

[Meteo Xavier]

Word of warning: Take what I have to say with a few grains of salt, because I have no idea what I'm talking about from any standpoint.

The choirs seems a bit muddied at times, such as at the beginning (~0:04), like playing two (or more) notes at the same time and making a sound that isn't really clear and doesn't know what it wants to be. The choir also gets kind of boring after the first minute or so. If you can bring out the sound, diversify it somehow, and make it all around seem more natural, then it would sound much more intersting, imo.

Overall, I can hear the source Brinstar stuff, but I don't think it's adding a whole lot to the mix. I feel like it's playing second fiddle to the choir and lead instead of having an equal part. It doesn't sound like there's enough bass in the mix, so if you kicked the bass on the source up a notch, maybe brought something to the lower end of the bass spectrum, then you can make it better.

I like what you have going on from 2:07 to 2:56. I don't know if this is what you were going for, but it seems like it wants to be all one section, but it got broken into three parts: 2:07-2:23, 2:23-2:39, 2:39-2:56. As a whole, it could be improved by making it truly one section instead of three pieces trying to be one section. The original stuff you added is good, but I feel it dwarfs the source material, while at the same time like it wants to bring some MP into the mix; Maybe incorporate Chozo Ruins with this section instead of the end?

On the ending: You could cut out the Chozo Ruins bit at the end, and nothing would be lost from the mix. It's cool that it's there, but it doesn't add anything, as if it's there just to be there. You could end the song at 4:21, too (before cutting the CR bit out), because the next 10 seconds don't really fit in any spectacular way. The fade out could probably do with being a second or two shorter, as well.

Overall, it's a good mix, but it's not awesome.

A lot of this I've already touched on. I'm not going to be changing the central pillar of the song for a number of reasons all relating to time, energy and reinventing the wheel. The best I can really do right now is fix the mixing, eliminate whatever is too "repetitive", and fix the garnishing.

My reasoning for this, because I plan on having at least a modest career here as a remixer, is I don't want to set a precedent for my tracks. I don't want formula-based arrangement, trademark crests and swells, etc. etc. I want to do that which is not predictable yet still working for an arrangement and that, at least, I feel I have accomplished here.

What I epic-failed at was mixing and keeping it interesting. You've got some good pointers here, but I'd like it even more if you could show me what you mean by "more realistic" "diversify", because those terms are virtually useless in mixing without instructions like "raise the LFO filter by 2 or 3" "knock up the EQ at about 9,000 Hz" etc.

It might be a while before I get a chance to go back and fix it, but keep your comments coming. I'm saving all notes in a folder.

[Scrap McNapps]

The percussion is pretty weak. Not enough omph. The lead is a bit piercing at times (IMO). It is a bit repetitive.

Overall, I like the structure and the feeling of the song. Just need toe refine the mix a bit.

[Nabeel Ansari]

The percussion is pretty weak. Not enough omph. The lead is a bit piercing at times (IMO). It is a bit repetitive.

Overall, I like the structure and the feeling of the song. Just need toe refine the mix a bit.

I back this crit.

You should find a better drumset. Sounds a little low quality. Also, the sine wave (lead) should be EQ'd down a little on the high Freq. it is piercing.

As for your clap dilemma, just record yourself clapping and add a chorus filter.

Instant high quality clap.

I believe someone said somethin about Chozo Ruins in the end, I agree.

While it was intended to be a surprise, like you said, it does sound more like it should be in the song. Try slowing or pulling out the percussion, to give it a more dramatic effect, kinda like the ending for Yellow Valkyrie, where the low piano and choir were alone without percussion.

[big giant circles]

Please don't name it Epic Fail.

I swear I'll NO OVERRIDE it if you do.

(k, not really, but that's a really crappy name for your track...)

[progressive]

::Big Douchey Grin::

[Meteo Xavier]

Please don't name it Epic Fail.

Living up to its name so far what with my trying to fix it and this sideshow...

[big giant circles]

what sideshow is that?

also, I've heard epic fails before, and I'm sorry to say (for the sake of your title) your track is not an epic fail.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Living up to its name so far what with my trying to fix it and this sideshow...

Stop beating yourself up about it.

You think people would really wanna listen to a track called "Epic Fail" ?

[Meteo Xavier]

what sideshow is that?

Take a look at this topic, man. I gotta buy a church choir to be able to fix the vox? I gotta buy a $100 microphone so I can get a better clap? The lead is somehow too loud and not loud enough? The arrangement is fine but also almost all of it needs to change?

I can't do anything with this. I appreciate the criticisms but at some point I got to speak up and say expectations are unrealistic and bordering on ridiculous. There is no one point anyone seems to agree on except for the fake choir which isn't bad but apparently requires me to pay $800 for the Roman church plus recording costs plus engineering costs just because what I have, which is largely identical to what was used in Prime, is just a little too fake.

I mean, c'mon now.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Take a look at this topic, man. I gotta buy a church choir to be able to fix the vox? I gotta buy a $100 microphone so I can get a better clap? The lead is somehow too loud and not loud enough? The arrangement is fine but also almost all of it needs to change?

I can't do anything with this. I appreciate the criticisms but at some point I got to speak up and say expectations are unrealistic and bordering on ridiculous. There is no one point anyone seems to agree on except for the fake choir which isn't bad but apparently requires me to pay $800 for the Roman church plus recording costs plus engineering costs just because what I have, which is largely identical to what was used in Prime, is just a little too fake.

I mean, c'mon now.

Ya know you're sounding a little like James The Composer.

What we told him is that there are free samples out there. I have a good choir soundfont... If you want it.

I didn't say the lead was too loud, I said to tone down the higher freq.

People have their own opinions and if they're all critting it once it's gonna sound conflicting, just do what you think's best.

You said in the beginning that this was rejected and you wanna try and make it OCR material, so people are gonna subconsciously blurt out all of their ideas. You can't avoid that.

Critting a rejection's a lot different from critting a WIP.

[big giant circles]

Well man, if you can't learn how to deal with advice (whether it's good or bad) then perhaps "Epic Fail" isn't that far off.

Look man. You don't need a dang church choir, and you don't need to buy a new mic to get a better clap. I don't mean to put down anyone who's been thoughtful enough to respond, because I know they're only trying to help, but here's the deal. I used a free soundfond called "Florestan Choirs" in my Super Metroid mix. There are quite literally THOUSANDS of better snare/clap samples out there, and many of them free. Who the hell records a clap for electronic music anyway? Just use a different sample, and then slap a little EQ/compression/verb/whatever on there. It's not complicated. If you're getting overwhelmed because of some of the suggestions that have been presented here, don't. Because while I know their intentions are good, some have overshot the mark quite a bit.

I was simply saying that the phrase "Epic Fail" is not only trite, but kind of a silly title for any remix. Especially a Metroid track that has nothing to do with failing.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Well man, if you can't learn how to deal with advice (whether it's good or bad) then perhaps "Epic Fail" isn't that far off.

Look man. You don't need a dang church choir, and you don't need to buy a new mic to get a better clap. I don't mean to put down anyone who's been thoughtful enough to respond, because I know they're only trying to help, but here's the deal. I used a free soundfond called "Florestan Choirs" in my Super Metroid mix. There are quite literally THOUSANDS of better snare/clap samples out there, and many of them free. Who the hell records a clap for electronic music anyway? Just use a different sample, and then slap a little EQ/compression/verb/whatever on there. It's not complicated. If you're getting overwhelmed because of some of the suggestions that have been presented here, don't. Because while I know their intentions are good, some have overshot the mark quite a bit.

I was simply saying that the phrase "Epic Fail" is not only trite, but kind of a silly title for any remix. Especially a Metroid track that has nothing to do with failing.

hehe, sorry the clap recording was my idea. xD

And I have that same choir soundfont, it's actually the one I was gonna offer him. xDDD

[big giant circles]

Alright, after a thorough listen, I can honestly say "wtf." I can name at least three mixes on the front page that don't deserve to be there. I do support the judges decision to have you resub this, but hell, what a double standard. Anyway, I'd say the problems aren't as numerous as you might think. The lead is fine, although at that frequency it becomes more of an ambient noise. You can't afford to make it more piercing, so I think it works fine. You might try breaking things up in the middle with some sort of solo with a different instrument. The clap fades into the soundscape - I don't know why they had such a problem with it. As I said, there have been some real craptastic tunes on the front page, so go figure. Tempo is fine, fix the balance on the EQ and bring out the bass thump a little more and resub it. You can only hope they don't NO you for something like the title next time.

Just out of curiosity, which ones do you feel are undeserving of posting? You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not here to argue or insult you. But you obviously feel strongly about this. Please, share.

Also, I was kidding about the title. Seriously.

[jabond23]

Alright. I've been paying attention to this thread for the past few days. I'm sure i'm not the only one that gets frustrated when they keep getting rejected. Although, in my case, its rightly so.

Anyways. Some of the things already mentioned i do kinda agree with. That lead is definitely piercing. Especially on the high notes. Simple EQ tweaking will fix that problem. I've got no prob with the choir. I think it fits in perfectly fine. Sometimes the drums don't give as much umph as you'd like them to. I think the one you could probably do is to lower the lead synths volume by just a click or 2 and then up the drums volume about 5% at first and see how that sounds. I don't think the clap/snare sample is that bad. I think maybe just upping the volume for the whole drum track would probably fix that problem. Only cause when all the instruments are on at the same time, they get drowned out.

I love the composition of this track. Its so ambient, but yet techno at the same time. Nice work man. I wouldn't get so down about it yet.