VGMix Revival

[Pope]

Hey there.

This post adds nothing new to the discussion. I just wanted to parrot everyone else in my own words, basically. I probably ramble a lot.

I am definitely one of those people who was exclusive to VGMix back in the day, and have continued to be until now. In fact, I only found out about this thread because someone posted about it in the nigh barren VGMix X forum, home of the few remaining active VGMix enthusiasts.

My exclusivity with VGMix had nothing to do with disliking OCR or djp (I know very very little about him, so why dislike him?). It really was that I loved the RPG stat system for site participation, and the "everyone is accepted, even if your mix is going to get brutally reviewed" mentality of VGMix 2. That, and I just never bothered with expanding my online social circle to include the OCR community, even as I was enjoying some fantastic albums put out by you guys.

I look forward to being a part of this now, however.

But for the time being, more about VGMix.

I loved that site. I have never finished recording a mix myself, though I always wanted to, and still plan to. I only wrote 2 reviews on VGMix 2, but they were good ones. I loved being able to help others improve in their craft. The thing I loved the most however, even more than the fantastic music that came out of the guys over at VGMix (many of which, as previously noted, are also OCR remixers), was the sense of community. I hope I can find the same thing here, and I especially hope that if a new VGMix initiative take off, that a similar community of crazies develops at the new incarnation of the site.

I know the point has already been made, but just to reiterate, the thing that made VGMix shine was it's alternative approach to managing mixes.

OCR has it's judges. Now, I'm not going to pretend I know anything about how things are run here other than that because... well, that's all I know at this point, but I imagine, like others have stated, that there are times when some songs are not accepted here, despite the fact that they are fantastic songs, simply because they don't fit OCR's criteria.

While that is by no means a flaw of OCR, but simply a defining trait of how you run things, it is one of the reasons why VGMix had such a big draw for mixing newcomers, and listeners alike. There was some crazy stuff on VGMix that I expect you just wouldn't find many other places.

The thing that excited me most about the prospect of VGMix 3 as it was described at the Magfest 5 panel, was the fact that virt and the boys were planning to take the whole idea of the RPG stat system, and a community based on all-inclusiveness and assisting others in honing their musical craft, and drilling even further down into that niche.

They explicitly stated at the panel that VGMix 3 was going to be a site for mixers, and that was pretty much the only focus they would have. There are plenty of site out there catering to listeners, but VGMix 3 was going to be for the musicians. It was (and perhaps still is, I haven't lost hope completely yet) going to be a place for getting feedback. It was going to be an MMO where you gain experience for helping others learn and grow, and gain reputation by being awesome at what you do, and showing others how to be as incredible as you are.

BAH!

This needs to happen. I don't care who does it.

If anyone knows where to find that Magfest 5 VGMix 3 panel video, and would post it up here, I think that could start a whole lot of new discussion of what a new VGMix-type site could be, rather than simply a recreation of VGMix 2. I know some people think that some of the new ideas presented were superfluous, but personally I got a little bit aroused when I heard about everything virt and the team had/have planned for 3.

ok... that's all for now.

[Monobrow]

Then obviously you didn't visit VGmix, since the whole site revolved around a 'chart' system that sorted mixes from 'best' to 'worst'. If we were to improve our WIP/completed system here we could easily have the ability to sort by game, just like with normal OCReMixes.

I think he meant that if the songs aren't good enough here, they are not released here, and no one gets to hear them (without going to a lot of trouble).

Yes you can revise the system here, but he was talking about right now, and within the past seven years. This is the first time I've heard of any sort of WIP system besides this being mentioned. Previously, every time someone complained about the WIP forum, the answer is usually always "it's fine, it works, the end"... Every time someone wanted to hear something that was rejected from OCR, it was very hard to do so unless they used WIP forum, or had the awesomeness to release somewhere else like THASAUCE and even then... It also didn't help that links to rejected songs are removed from the decisions...

While VGMIX did have a rating system, the songs were voted on by everyone who wanted to, who bothered to, they were rated by anyone, thus the tier system was open to the public. At OCR, the judges and djp are the first, and final tier system.

In other words, there were obvious differences between OCR and VGMIX that a lot of people who used VGMIX miss (like Bleck). You don't have the same experience when visiting both sites.

[Bleck]

What Mono said, basically. The difference, to me, between OCR and VGMix was that VGMix let me pick which songs I thought were the best, instead of a panel doing it for me.

[Kidd Cabbage]

Songs, graphics, etc. are protected by copyright. Names of businesses and products are protected by trademark. Ideas, on the other hand, can only be protected by patents, and I don't think anything about OCR, VGMix, or anything else being discussed is particularly patentable. In other words (and the same holds true for OCR), as long as it's called something else, doesn't reuse any graphics or take mixes without permission, etc., a website could be created with identical functionality. My question is, why bother, but then again, some folks seem to either be pessimistic that we can do anything here instead, or simply want a different sandbox to play in.

I know the difference between copyright and trademark, I just thought that they were planning on using the graphics, code, name, and logo from the original VGMix2 site, rather than a site *inspired* by it.

[DarkeSword]

While VGMIX did have a rating system, the songs were voted on by everyone who wanted to, who bothered to, they were rated by anyone, thus the tier system was open to the public. At OCR, the judges and djp are the first, and final tier system.

Not really knocking VGMix here, yes, that was the concept, but in practice, the people ranking remixes on VGMix eventually boiled down to a few regulars that numbered around the same size of OCR's panel.

But anyway, I think a lot of people are assuming a lot about what's being considered as far as a revision of the Workshop section of OCR. Forget about rating and ranking and doing what VGMix did; the basic idea that's being tossed around is giving artists the ability to "release" a song on OCR by tying it to the database and making artist released tracks searchable by game and all that other nice stuff. No, they won't be tagged as OC ReMixes, and yes, you'd still have to submit and go through the process to get posted on the front page and all that jazz, but it's more about taking stuff that people release out of a "forum" context and make it something far more browsable. Instead of creating a thread that gets lost in a sea of "check out my first remax," you add your remix to a catalog of Workshop mixes. Hypothetically we could even host them (but I'm not in any position to commit to that kind of thing).

It's all very cerebral/conceptual right now, but the basic idea is not to replace OCR's current Panel system or to ape VGMix's tiers and ranks, but to make the Workshop more functional for artists trying to release their work and for listeners trying to find the latest mixes the community has to offer.

Also, Mono, when people talk about improving the WIP forum and other people say "it's fine, it works in the end," the discussion isn't really about promoting work but about getting meaningful feedback for the purposes of submitting. It's really a different discussion altogether.

[Monobrow]

Oh yeah dude, I know VgMix had it's share of flaws. I was just pointing out that OCR and VgMix are really apples and oranges, or maybe more applicable as different sides to the same coin. They had different systems, and in that, you really have to pick and choose what you concentrate on, each had strengths and weaknesses. Also I mostly wanted to clarify that Bleck's post was being misrepresented in its reply.

Hypothetically we could even host them (but I'm not in any position to commit to that kind of thing).

I'm pretty sure that at one point, herograw/rguinn/rob offered to host WIP files on the WIP forum for people but no one took him up on that.

I'd love for the WIP forum to have some sort of software functionality instead of just being a forum. A place where arists could update their WIPs as they go and people could just log in and check them. That is kind of what VgMix had, and I thought it worked rather well. A rating's system is not something that OCR is interested in, but I think a more organized approach to people's access to WIPs in general couldn't hurt.

I am the type that really wants to decide for myself, what I like and don't like, what I want to listen to. I will take anything and everything and put it on my playlist and give it a shot. So the more access I have to people's music, the better IMO. I feel that each rejected song that I don't hear is kind of like a missed opportunity for my ears *_*.

[k-wix]

But anyway, I think a lot of people are assuming a lot about what's being considered as far as a revision of the Workshop section of OCR. Forget about rating and ranking and doing what VGMix did; the basic idea that's being tossed around is giving artists the ability to "release" a song on OCR by tying it to the database and making artist released tracks searchable by game and all that other nice stuff. No, they won't be tagged as OC ReMixes, and yes, you'd still have to submit and go through the process to get posted on the front page and all that jazz, but it's more about taking stuff that people release out of a "forum" context and make it something far more browsable. Instead of creating a thread that gets lost in a sea of "check out my first remax," you add your remix to a catalog of Workshop mixes. Hypothetically we could even host them (but I'm not in any position to commit to that kind of thing).

This would definitely be a huge improvement to the Workshop mixes forum, no doubt. I think your going to get a lot of requests for vgmix-type features because honestly, people just really miss the site. But yea, this sort've a change would definitely make me more interested in the 'Workshop' forums over here, I almost never look at it as it stands. It'd be cool to make a widget on the front page that would show off a random workshop song or something, maybe so people could help that mixer out.

[Nario]

I'm in favor of this Revival.

[LuketheXjesse]

Wait, you don't post here, Nario!

[Sindra]

Holy shyte it's Nario!

[spacepony]

I used to enjoy the whole VGMix thing. It had something different about it. Where as OCR has always been more quality orientated (which is great), there was a nice mix of talented and not so talented artists at VGMix. Then there were the likes of myself, who released some utter bilj!*

At any rate, good times. I'd like to see it back in some form.

*I heard Ben Elton use the word one time and thought it rather amusing for some reason.

[Nario]

Wait, you don't post here, Nario!

Hehe, no I do not... but I'm still in support of this Revival nonetheless!

[Sindra]

Is the idea of evolving the WIP forum even doable? If so, I say go for it. It can only help people achieve the necessary level of quality the judges look for, while also providing the rest of us with the works that may fall short but still fall within the range the rest of us still deem interesting for our individual reasons.

[Souliarc]

I also give my vote to completing this revival. I have planned on dishing out my own ReMix's for a few years now and I'll be damned if I finally submit something and it gets NO'ed to death. At least with VGMix I can still share my music in a video game music community.

Also, like Sindra, I like finding music that just happens to fit with my own reasons even if it may not fit the standards of OCR.

There is PLENTY of room for VGMix in the VGM community alongside OCR.

[Nario]

There is PLENTY of room for VGMix in the VGM community alongside OCR.

Agreed. I think people are hungry for VGMix.

Oh, and it looks like we live only an hour from each other. I live in Elizabethtown.

Never once have I supported the idea that VGMix be the only VG-remixing site on the web, and nor have I supported the idea that OCR be the only VG-remixing site on the web either. Back in high school, I frequently browsed VGMix's forums and posted songs there while I simultaneously gathered music from OCR. Both sites offered a different variety of music, and I liked having my options.

However, with VGMix gone, something is missing, and no other site has been able to replace what VGMix 2.0 once was. It was truly a haven of work in progress music, and everyone felt free to share their constructive criticism. Not just that, but it was also home to music of every kind as well: if something couldn't get accepted here at OCR, they went straight to VGMix and felt free to share it with everyone.

I'm one of the few who have stuck with VGMix after all of these years. I have matured over the past three years and have grown substantially in my music capabilities, even to the point my first album is coming out later this month. I couldn't get to where I am now without VGMix, but sadly, VGMix X isn't cutting it right now. VGMix 2.5 had a lot of traffic and I even improved drastically there, but VGMix X has done nothing to encourage music-making, especially since users aren't even allowed to sign up for the site anymore, how the database won't accept anymore songs, and how dead the forums are. I only make a true video game arrangement maybe once a year now due to not being motivated by VGMix X, and it's been like this for over a year. Sure, the forums and main site were encouraging at first, but the lack of support just made it fall down like Midgar Sector 7 and it hasn't been the same since.

I've grown and am ready to remix video game music again, but not without a reason. VGMix was that reason, and quite frankly, I think it might be the only reason for me. Not OCR, not ThaSauce, not even DoD can bring a consistent reason for me to remix video game music (despite working with Omni and Powellman on a Pokemon remix last DoD for GameBoy month). VGMix, its reviewing system, and community were the reason I made lots of remixes in the past, and I have a feeling I would do the same were VGMix back up now, except my music would sound so much better than before--I guess we all have to start somewhere.

Now, if VGMix 2.0 were brought back, I would definitely not consider it a slap in virt's face. He can most certainly take the site and mold it however he wishes, as it's his baby. However, nothing's been done with VGMix X in over a year, and that's why I'm totally in support of this VGMix Revival. It would be a breathe of fresh air, and hopefully an inspiration to virt's coders to finish VGMix 3.0 once and for all.

[Pope]

...but the lack of support just made it fall down like Midgar Sector 7...

Oh Nario... I love you.

Aside from DoD, I feel generally the same way about having no motivation to mix. Not that I have ever participated in DoD, but because my style of music fits their criteria. I've always kept the idea of it in the back of my mind.

VGMix 2.5 was indeed great. It felt like a living thing, rather than the desolate wasteland VGMix X has become, as you mentioned. Again, it's draw was it's community, and people's eagerness to learn from each other. That, and insanity.

[Souliarc]

Agreed. I think people are hungry for VGMix.

Oh, and it looks like we live only an hour from each other. I live in Elizabethtown.

Ah ha! The potential for a meet-up in Kentucky just gets better and better XD Good to see ya around.

[Mika]

To me vgmix was always about the community, even more than it was about the music of all kinds. I'm not saying that the community at ocr or anywhere else is bad or anything, just decidedly different.

And it just so happens that vgmix is the one I enjoy being part of.

So in that sense, if someone were to make a "inspired by vgmix2" site or whatever, I probably wouldn't visit it that much, because the people won't necessarily be the same.

Which is also partially the reason why I don't have accounts in the two other sites mentioned earlier in this thread. I don't have the time to invest getting to know new internet people these days, I'd rather stay in my little bubble that I've constructed back when time was a plenty.

[Sindra]

I guess the only way VGMix is going to revive anytime soon is if they find coders who aren't busy at this time, who are willing to put X-amount of hours into finishing the site. I'm not meaning this to insult any of the current staff or coders that are there now, but like was said....they're busy with other things. Logic would say that, rather than let an awesome idea stagnate, find some more people willing to pitch in to take the pressure off of the current team.

[Sinewav]

I won't make any claims about what the purpose of these two sites ACTUALLY are about, but rather I'll state my perceptions of what they APPEAR to be about. Here's the way I see it:

Since I started visiting OCR back in '01, my impression of the site is that its purpose is to showcase high-quality video game remixes to the public. While there are some useful WIP functions (and they have been improving too), the focus is on what the judges panel passes.

VGMix, seemed to focus on WIPs and helping people improve their mixes via its community. Yes, you could go there, just download the top rated songs and call it a day, but the focus was on reviews and improvement.

Obviously there is crossover. While both have showcasing and WIP-review features, OCR is better at showcasing, and VGMix was better at WIPs... or to overgeneralize, OCR's specialty is on the listener, while VGMix was on the artist. Both sites were decent at both jobs, they just each had they're own forte.

It's my opinion, that while the Workshop forum improvements discussed here are great (I really like them and I'm looking forward to making use of them if implemented), OCR will never be as good at WIPs as VGMix, unless it becomes the MAIN focus of the site... which frankly, I think would be a very bad thing.

This is why a site like VGMix is needed, IMO. Not to replace OCR, but to complement her. I've always gone to OCR for the high-quality stuff (and I'm much more active over here than I ever was at VGMix), but VGMix was always a much more helpful when it came to improving my skillz.

[A-RoN]

VGMix 2.5 was indeed great. It felt like a living thing, rather than the desolate wasteland VGMix X has become, as you mentioned. Again, it';s draw was it's community, and people's eagerness to learn from each other. That, and insanity.

I've always hated the last part. However, if we can have better mods and admins that can deal tolerantly with more "unorthodox" material (anyone remember the thread of the Doom 2 Remix Demons from Hell), I'd come back.

[Mika]

I've always hated the last part. However, if we can have better mods and admins that can deal tolerantly with more "unorthodox" material (anyone remember the thread of the Doom 2 Remix Demons from Hell), I'd come back.

Threads like that is one of the reasons people keep coming back to vgmix.

[Skrypnyk]

I've always hated the last part. However, if we can have better mods and admins that can deal tolerantly with more "unorthodox" material (anyone remember the thread of the Doom 2 Remix Demons from Hell), I'd come back.

that remix was dooooooooooooope

[LuketheXjesse]

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[jk]

Guys. (this is virt)

TL;DR, seriously. Naw, Dave just linked me here. I'm going to reply to email when I can sit down at home, but I just wanted to quickly check in.

I'm touched that so many of you miss the site enough to want to make your own revival. I replied to one dude recently with a 10-paragraph email about why I've held off so long, but the short version is that it was on hold while I learned how to manage own my time properly, let alone anyone else's.

tumult made me a deal last year: He is now a professional web developer with bleeding edge skills, who has already seen several commercial projects through to completion. He was concerned that I was pretty much going to die in the next 5 years, and then VGMix would NEVER happen. So, if I could lose 5 pounds a month by next Magfest, development was on like a tauntaun. Here I am, 65 pounds lighter.

So, I've spent the past couple of weeks working on a vastly simplified feature list and specs for each system. It's a weird coincidence that this was brought to my attention today, because I'm hyped up already. It's not that volunteer coders are flaky, and it's not really because we got too busy. It's really because the goddamn thing was just over-scoped, I didn't know the first blinking thing about project management, and I wasn't able to effectively set milestones to work toward.

Before long, everyone's like "DUH-HEYYYYY" wandering around aimlessly, facing a super-imposing feature list with ridiculous webs of interdependency and prerequisites, until they lose interest and their AI returns to "Roam" state. So it goes with genius coders. VGMix 2? Week or so of work. 3 wasn't even reasonable without a damn good plan.

I'm going to be in contact with people who already have perfectly functional sites, such as Dave, and figure out ways to hook together in a way that benefits everyone, rather than trying to go it alone as an "alternative". Many of the features we had planned are now totally unnecessary and add needless complexity.

So... PLEASE don't replicate VGMix 2 feature-for-feature. Not "because it's my baby", but because it's so outdated, and many of the core concepts are vastly, deeply flawed (RPG system? Levels? Reviews AND buzz AND metas? ARGGHGFKZJXBV) and incapable of scaling to handle the amount of content we ended up with. The whole thing gets unmanageable once you have a couple thousand songs.

The real focus now is providing a place for WIP feedback, and tools to help organize competitions and projects. My ultimate goal is to have DoD be its own site running on a common framework, customized to run pretty much how it runs now, and handling all the voting, file organization, and display stuff automatically. If we can reach that benchmark, I think we have a fighting chance of doing something helpful.

Yeah. I'm going to read each page in more detail tonight, but I think you shouldn't be too quick to assume I've forgotten all about VGMix. I just needed a good training montage.

OH YEAH! Also, last weekend, I backed up the entire VGMix2 /songs/ directory (21 gigabytes) to a flash drive and two external hard drives for good measure. As soon as I have time to organize the collection into reasonable chunks, I'm going to release it as a torrent, unless anyone objects.