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Truly innovative music


gwilendiel
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Not sure if this is the right place to put this... but I'm interested in music that truly skirts musical 'rules' or is innovative in some way. I'm not talking about things that are mashed together and people call it music, I mean things that are truly thought out, where somebody knows traditional theory, and thoughtfully surpasses it.

Things like

It seems hard to find things like that, was wondering if there are more examples out there.

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So, I hate to be that guy, but I'm not really seeing where you're getting that this is truly innovative. This song doesn't really break or surpass any rules of music theory (you'll hear much more fucked up musical aspects coming from the 1930s, where we developed contemporary theory from,) and I can't really hear anything that isn't just a conglomeration of other genres. Music styles aren't islands, and we haven't really been at a point of musical innovation, so much as branching and blending for over a decade.

Don't get me wrong, I like the song a lot, but I don't see where it's breaking any boundaries. The Glitch-esque percussion has been in use since the 90s, and aside from the C64 sid sounds, it sounds like a pretty standard pop style with some jazzy streaks.

And I wouldn't say Venetian Snares is breaking any new ground, either. It just sounds like a lot of Jungle and IDM, and again, things like this have been going on since the 90s. Check out this Squarepusher song from '97, very similar stylings.

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http://www.theprotomen.com

Their newest CD has a first half that is Western music in the tradition of Sergio Leone, whereas the 2nd half is 1980's rock. With a transition song in the middle of the CD to get you there.

See, a lot of people would find that pretentious and a deterrent to music that should rock.

I call bullshit on that, I LOVE it when artists have a very blatant concept that they try to execute. Even if they go so far as to write a word salad paragraph description and spare no expense to bring the monstrosity to life - you just gotta admire the balls these people have to actually do something like that.

That's what innovation really takes - just the balls to do it and the guts to do it well. I'm going to check this CD out when I get home.

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Well, I'd say if you guys think that kind of stuff is innovative, definitely check out Amon Tobin. His album Foley Room is based around the idea that most of the sounds he uses are what you would get out of a foley room and field recordings.

http://www.amontobin.com/field/

and also some of his more melodic work:

His more weird and wonderful stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru46QPzWvlQ

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So, I hate to be that guy, but I'm not really seeing where you're getting that this is truly innovative. This song doesn't really break or surpass any rules of music theory (you'll hear much more fucked up musical aspects coming from the 1930s, where we developed contemporary theory from,) and I can't really hear anything that isn't just a conglomeration of other genres. Music styles aren't islands, and we haven't really been at a point of musical innovation, so much as branching and blending for over a decade.

Don't get me wrong, I like the song a lot, but I don't see where it's breaking any boundaries. The Glitch-esque percussion has been in use since the 90s, and aside from the C64 sid sounds, it sounds like a pretty standard pop style with some jazzy streaks.

And I wouldn't say Venetian Snares is breaking any new ground, either. It just sounds like a lot of Jungle and IDM, and again, things like this have been going on since the 90s. Check out this Squarepusher song from '97, very similar stylings.

Mind you, innovation can be innovation for the time as well. I'd just like to point that out. Mozart was innovative, and he is long dead.

Get my drift? :)

Edit: and furthermore, innovation is what it is, I'm more interested in styles that truly bucked the system at some point. Things that make people say 'that isn't music!' I'm just looking for the elements, they could be modern emulation, or in a work that is not by the original pioneer of that element. So long as it was at some point something that made some people go 'WTF, you aren't supposed to do that!'

I suppose old rock from the 50's and many other things technically would count, but I'm looking for exceptional and notable elements. Like using electric guitar for the first time is innovative, but it isn't far fetched either.

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I wouldn't call the Protomen innovative in the least bit. Great? Arguably true. Fun? Definitely. But innovative? Eh, not so much.

J Dilla is definitely one of the most innovative producers in recent rap history (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIZbTAXzJsM, weird video but the song is his), its a shame he passed away so young but he is very well regarded in rap circles. Other interesting, innovative rap producers are Flying Lotus (Dabrye is very similar and came earlier but Los Angeles was groundbreaking) and El-P.

Also I'd call The Blood Brothers rather innovative, especially towards the later period of their career, no one has gotten close to that weird poppy screamy sound they had. In the same vein Relationship of Command by At the Drive-In was a very innovative album for the genre.

I will second Amon Tobin though, and have you guys heard Two Fingers (his project with Doubleclick)? Freakin' phenomenal!

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I wouldn't call the Protomen innovative in the least bit. Great? Arguably true. Fun? Definitely. But innovative? Eh, not so much.

J Dilla is definitely one of the most innovative producers in recent rap history (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIZbTAXzJsM, weird video but the song is his), its a shame he passed away so young but he is very well regarded in rap circles. Other interesting, innovative rap producers are Flying Lotus (Dabrye is very similar and came earlier but Los Angeles was groundbreaking) and El-P.

Also I'd call The Blood Brothers rather innovative, especially towards the later period of their career, no one has gotten close to that weird poppy screamy sound they had. In the same vein Relationship of Command by At the Drive-In was a very innovative album for the genre.

I will second Amon Tobin though, and have you guys heard Two Fingers (his project with Doubleclick)? Freakin' phenomenal!

I might have been too unspecific with my wording.

While that is great stuff there, and innovation at some point, as I said, I'm thinking more about the element rather than who did it or when.

For example, using square wave kicks in gabber/hardcore. Or really 'absurd' syncopation, strange meters or mixing more than one meter (like using triplets in 4/4 time without rests). Things that convey an atmosphere or make a point which can't be done as easily if you follow basic 'music school' rules.

I don't really count things like using electric instruments in orchestra. Yes made cool music with minimoogs, but it isn't as far removed as I'm thinking about.

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For example, using square wave kicks in gabber/hardcore. Or really 'absurd' syncopation, strange meters or mixing more than one meter (like using triplets in 4/4 time without rests). Things that convey an atmosphere or make a point which can't be done as easily if you follow basic 'music school' rules.

Flying Lotus and Blood Brothers are both artists who completely throw out conventions, I mean, listen to Sleepy Dinosaur (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJOQDZ14oQw) and Burn Piano Island Burn (

) respectively, bother are completely different styles than a lot of whats out there and the song structure is much more fluid than most genres. Mew is another great band that can do stuff like this, as well as Lightning Bolt (just listened to their album last night and calling it ridiculous doesn't even get me started on it), The Unicorns (I've been all over them for a couple weeks now), Busdriver, K-OS, Bop, Bela Fleck, and a whole list of other artists who aren't coming to mind immediately.
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I think maybe we're digging too deep to fully define what is "truly groundbreaking, innovative, etc." Pretty much everything innovative has been done before sometime, somewhere - usually by the chinese some thousands of years ago. :P

On a similar note, have you seen this yet?

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/tag/eigenharp/

A lot of people are saying THIS is the new revolution in music. I'm not quite so enamored with it, but I'm a minority in terms of people who have seen it so far. With new dynamics and structure come new ways to do music, so its definitely worth seeing what could come from such a thing. :)

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Flying Lotus and Blood Brothers are both artists who completely throw out conventions, I mean, listen to Sleepy Dinosaur (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJOQDZ14oQw) and Burn Piano Island Burn (
) respectively, bother are completely different styles than a lot of whats out there and the song structure is much more fluid than most genres. Mew is another great band that can do stuff like this, as well as Lightning Bolt (just listened to their album last night and calling it ridiculous doesn't even get me started on it), The Unicorns (I've been all over them for a couple weeks now), Busdriver, K-OS, Bop, Bela Fleck, and a whole list of other artists who aren't coming to mind immediately.

Nice!

It's hard for me to find stuff like this. Not many people around me are into this sort of thing... and even online too.

And Blood Brothers vaguely reminds me of HORSE the Band. I like it.

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I think maybe we're digging too deep to fully define what is "truly groundbreaking, innovative, etc." Pretty much everything innovative has been done before sometime, somewhere - usually by the chinese some thousands of years ago. :P

On a similar note, have you seen this yet?

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/tag/eigenharp/

A lot of people are saying THIS is the new revolution in music. I'm not quite so enamored with it, but I'm a minority in terms of people who have seen it so far. With new dynamics and structure come new ways to do music, so its definitely worth seeing what could come from such a thing. :)

It's not so much that we are thinking too deeply, we just aren't agreeing on the definition. Some things I consider to be standard evolution, and to be somewhat expected. Just because something hasn't been done exactly before doesn't mean its really innovative. In other words, emergent things are innovative, but I'm looking for more abrupt and radical things. While that may be subjective, what is abrupt and radical in itself is not.

I like whats in that link by the way.

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I've just gotta chime in here and say how much I used to be obsessed with The Blood Brothers. Watching their DVDs now, or if you saw them live when they were together, was an experience to itself. Not only did their songs defy convention, but their method of playing shows was almost awkward with their mannerisms and musical style. I've also listened to and seen HORSE the band play back when I went to UMD, though I think they came after BBs.

Innovative? How about the grand-daddy of all pseudo emo-screamopunk: Rites of Spring. Totally unheard of to take that punk raw nature and actually put feeling behind it, but also innovative in their song writing. Or how about Husker Du? Zen Arcade still stands the test of time as an incredibly innovative album in both concept and execution. The Dreams - Reoccuring songs still baffle me.

One last band to bring up, and one of my two favorites: Planes Mistaken for Stars. Starting off as Screamo-Punk and then becoming god-knows-what at the end (I think that Mercy is one of the weaker albums, but as usual with them, they defied some major musical logic even there). The two most innovative things I can say about them are their mixing style, which places the bass in a very weird place in the soundscape as well as how the guitars are written and performed with deliberate noise and mis-hits, and Garret's vocals, which during the bulk of their existence consisted of half-swallowing the words while screaming on-key. The lyrics were also extremely cryptic but poetic, with that particular vocal tone everything came through as this beautiful noise that I just couldn't get enough of. I would highly recommend the albums Fuck with Fire and Up in them Guts to highlight their innovation. Maybe I'm just a big fanboy of theirs, but I've heard things from them that I just can't place anywhere else. INNOVATION!

Edit: Also, another amazing band full of innovation and just all-around FUCKEDUPNESS is Secret Chiefs 3. Words can't describe it at all, but I'll try: Hardcore Arabic Surf Rock Techno Punk Orchestral. Yeah, it's fourteen million times more bizarre and incredible to listen to than my words can convey, and absolutely innovative. Check them out for sure.

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