OC ReMix Project Bones Database?

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

I've been thinking;

A lot of the remixers here are assembling their music in programs like FL Studio, Reason, and the like... and a lot of these OCRemixes are still saved, in one version or another, as assembled files on the remixer's computer. Is there any particular reason we keep these hidden from each other?

In the interest of potentially re-thinking posted remixes, getting inspired from each other, learning the in's and out's of particular styles/remixers, and just visualizing how a sound was created, I have a proposition:

Why don't we make a sub-site to OCR just to hold as many of each other's project files/samples/recordings/vocal tracks as we can get?

It doesn't take much from the remixer and could be very rewarding for the rest of us.

I figure any and all types of formats could live there.

Thoughts?

[Abadoss]

That would require a lot of server space and bandwidth... otherwise, it's a good idea.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

That would require a lot of server space and bandwidth... otherwise, it's a good idea.

That occurred to me as well. Every time I bring up server space to a friendly community suddenly 3 or 4 volunteers offer... but you're right this is more than a small investment.

[Chernabogue]

Pretty good idea, can be interesting. It will need a lot of space if ReMixers upload .wav samples or big projects.

[ella guro]

I used to post my reason project files or .it files, but those links are long gone. I've always liked this idea, though. Sometimes it's hard when you have some samples or other stuff that won't export within a program, so you can't hear the whole mix. And for recorded stuff, it obviously takes up a lot more space. My view is that it is always nice to see what other people are doing and study that, because it can help you see how to do things that you wouldn't have tried before. So yeah, I'd like to see more people doing this but I can understand why some may not want to.

[Joshua Morse]

I think this is a great idea, as feedback is not always the best source for improving your game</subjective-statement>. I'd be interested in developing for this if there was enough interest.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

I think this is a great idea, as feedback is not always the best source for improving your game</subjective-statement>. I'd be interested in developing for this if there was enough interest.

And I would be interested in looking over your files.

What if it was more like a links database to where you could nab the project files off of each remixer's own personal web space. That way, the bandwidth could be paired down to just hosting those who can't host for themselves.

Also; since this would/could be an ever progessing/updating site with many variations in terms of file type/size/structure... why not have it be a blog site?

[Bahamut]

And I would be interested in looking over your files.

What if it was more like a links database to where you could nab the project files off of each remixer's own personal web space. That way, the bandwidth could be paired down to just hosting those who can't host for themselves.

Also; since this would/could be an ever progessing/updating site with many variations in terms of file type/size/structure... why not have it be a blog site?

Funny you should mention blogs - the intention here is that sometime this year, hopefully in a month or two, the OCR blog system will be implemented.

[zircon]

A lot of the remixers here are assembling their music in programs like FL Studio, Reason, and the like... and a lot of these OCRemixes are still saved, in one version or another, as assembled files on the remixer's computer. Is there any particular reason we keep these hidden from each other?

Yes, there is a single, extremely simple reason. It is logistically impossible to export everything you used in a project. Take Reason for example. Unless you're using "vanilla" Reason with absolutely no refills, you'd have to share your refills (which could be hundreds to thousands of MB) in order for people to be able to load your project. Not only is that impractical, it's illegal, since you're giving away something that you bought. Now take a program like, say, Cubase. You could be using hundreds of sounds from many libraries. Chances are they're not just simple WAVs; they're VST plugins which you can't share even if you wanted to (they must be registered/authorized, possibly attached to a dongle, etc.)

Nobody in this thread for example could load any of my projects. Even if you have, say, Zebra 2, Kontakt 4, my SPECIFIC VERSION of T-Racks, ArtsAcoustic Reverb, Guitar Rig 4 and FM7, are all the library mappings and filepaths going to be the same? Are you going to have my custom tools? No. The fact of the matter is that this will never be possible or practical unless the projects use only program default sounds OR 100% free plugins/sounds that don't require installation or authorization.

The best way for people to share their projects and give some insight would be, IMO, to record screencap videos and actually show people how sounds were made, what various sequences look like, the structure of their mixer channels, that kind of stuff.

[Monobrow]

Giving midi information could be valuable though, in the very least.

While duh, I can't load someone else's 4584964 dollar samples without having them first, I can still guestimate what they were going for. The more similar setup I have going, the more I can see EXACTLY what was going on, but any bit of information can be valuable in the eye of the beholder.

I may not be able to load someone else's project completely (it's actually really annoying to even try)... But at least if I have the saw DAW as they do, I can see details like what they were using that I do not have, and try to guestimate how to replicate that effect with what I do have.

That in itself could be a very useful and learning experience. Hands on is almost always the best way to learn for a great amount of people. Just looking at someone's project file, and seeing the intimate details of how they work can be a great learning experience.

After all, even if you can't get the whole sound that they had when they originally worked on the song, you have the mp3 for reference at least.

At Vgmusic.com for example, all those midiphiles basically sit around trying to replicate SNES, GENESIS, PSX, etc. sound with their limited format (Midi) and try to emulate what they have heard in the game. I think it is amazing how close some of those people have gotten when they replicated everything from BPM to timing and velocities as well as the timbre and tone of each note. I am sure that most of the regulars to this community would tell you that replicating and knowing the nuances of the songs they worked on has helped them drastically with music in general. It's hands on.

I mean yeah the same can be said for the ReMix community here, we spend hours trying to recreate (and expand upon) themes we hear in limited formats, and use (depending) a more unlimited format to give homage to the originals. But regardless, in order to make a good song, you need to pay attention to the details, and usually in order to pay a decent homage to anything, you have to be able to analyze it, and know what it was trying to convey in the first place, to work with it.

Anyway, my point is, you can say that it's useless or illegal, but I think that's besides the point here. No one I know of in this thread was asking for any illegal sample libraries, but the information behind the samples, that makes them work, the notes, the velocities, the automations, the writing of the song itself... Seeing the process running before your eyes.

Besides, knowing of the samples that someone uses could be an influence in what samples they eventually seek out and hopefully buy... Since there are so many out there that many people just do not know about.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Yes, there is a single, extremely simple reason. It is logistically impossible to export everything you used in a project. Take Reason for example. Unless you're using "vanilla" Reason with absolutely no refills, you'd have to share your refills (which could be hundreds to thousands of MB) in order for people to be able to load your project. Not only is that impractical, it's illegal, since you're giving away something that you bought. Now take a program like, say, Cubase. You could be using hundreds of sounds from many libraries. Chances are they're not just simple WAVs; they're VST plugins which you can't share even if you wanted to (they must be registered/authorized, possibly attached to a dongle, etc.)

Nobody in this thread for example could load any of my projects. Even if you have, say, Zebra 2, Kontakt 4, my SPECIFIC VERSION of T-Racks, ArtsAcoustic Reverb, Guitar Rig 4 and FM7, are all the library mappings and filepaths going to be the same? Are you going to have my custom tools? No. The fact of the matter is that this will never be possible or practical unless the projects use only program default sounds OR 100% free plugins/sounds that don't require installation or authorization.

The best way for people to share their projects and give some insight would be, IMO, to record screencap videos and actually show people how sounds were made, what various sequences look like, the structure of their mixer channels, that kind of stuff.

I figured, certainly with the case of more intricately produced/pro-end mixes this would be the case. I have a few thoughts in response.

People aspiring to re-create and learn from such 'pro' mixes are not likely to put the same pieces back together in the same way, true. I can accept that, in these cases, they are too far from publicly useful... and in many cases it would even be illegal. But I feel like these mixes are the exception... even if that is the case with any one remixer's style.

2 things that they could still provide the public even if cubase, reason, or FL Studio project files aren't ideal:

A: individually recorded tracks, muting all other tracks on export. I realize if they were paid for it would still be frowned upon if tracks from 'A' were sampled... but for a lot of people it might be an option to release their specific instrument lines. Pixietricks did with her own remix competition on her site; large zips of loops and vocal tracks.

B: midi files for notation purposes... which could become, in many cases, individual or ensemble sheet music. A lot of vgpianists have been doing this for a while... why not with a lot of the orchestral or orchestral fusion mixes as well? I'd be willing to wager some officially released ocr guitar tabs would make a lot of people happy too.

Relatedly;

I remember contacting Rellik about his FL only remix Mirror & Transparent and was able to hang on to that .flp for some time... I was planning a re-remix of it and could have done so if I didn't lose it.

If someone wanted to contribute 'bones' material from their mixes, and there was a serious issues officially & legally, we just have to have some semblance of project file formatting/filtering/screening. Two or three people monitoring the posts as they happen.

EDIT: Another useful thing I can think of is the fact that when I was doing live DJ sets I was looking for songs with isolated beats that lasted so I could match/blend songs easily from one to another. If I had someone's song I wanted to use... but the beat faded out or wasn't really isolated... it could be a very useful, very easy thing to just tack another 16 or 32 bars of the same, isolated drumloop on to the beginning/end.

[SoulinEther]

For recorded stuff, it would be nice to hear the unprocessed original and see what the FX chain is to make the final product sound as it does (if it needed to be processed). This sounds like it would be a little hard to start but it should prove to be at least modestly valuable.

[zircon]

Giving midi information could be valuable though, in the very least.

While duh, I can't load someone else's 4584964 dollar samples without having them first, I can still guestimate what they were going for. The more similar setup I have going, the more I can see EXACTLY what was going on, but any bit of information can be valuable in the eye of the beholder.

I may not be able to load someone else's project completely (it's actually really annoying to even try)... But at least if I have the saw DAW as they do, I can see details like what they were using that I do not have, and try to guestimate how to replicate that effect with what I do have.

But what I'm saying is that for many remixers, myself included, you're not going to get anything out of our files. Even when I go back to load my own projects from a few years ago I can't tell what the hell is going on because I didn't make them for other people to look at, I'm missing samples, they're disorganized, etc. They're no help to ME, much less other people. And that's why I've been doing the aforementioned screencap videos to make a timeless record of what went into the mix, along with my own comments. So far, people have found those very helpful.

At Vgmusic.com for example, all those midiphiles basically sit around trying to replicate SNES, GENESIS, PSX, etc. sound with their limited format (Midi) and try to emulate what they have heard in the game. I think it is amazing how close some of those people have gotten when they replicated everything from BPM to timing and velocities as well as the timbre and tone of each note. I am sure that most of the regulars to this community would tell you that replicating and knowing the nuances of the songs they worked on has helped them drastically with music in general. It's hands on.

Yes but frankly I don't think that is analogous here. How often do you hear people saying "I have this great idea, but don't know how to implement it?" I hear that all the time. Everyone has musical ideas. On the other hand, how many people say "I'm a production whiz and know how to implement all of my ideas. I just don't have any ideas to begin with?" I don't know of anyone like that. If you look at the VAST majority of remixes we get, the most glaring problems are typically related to production, not arrangement. It's relatively uncommon that we tell someone they had amazing production but had no idea what they were doing when it came to arranging the song.

I'll be the first to say that I learned a LOT from guys like tefnek and Unknown, when I collaborated with them. I'm just really skeptical that having a few unorganized MIDI scraps and 90% missing plugins will have the same effect.

Anyway, my point is, you can say that it's useless or illegal, but I think that's besides the point here. No one I know of in this thread was asking for any illegal sample libraries, but the information behind the samples, that makes them work, the notes, the velocities, the automations, the writing of the song itself... Seeing the process running before your eyes.

No, it's not really beside the point because for many people, production is what they need help with. I get emails every day from people asking me for advice, and 95% of them are production-related. The other 5% are business-related. Nobody asks about arrangement, velocities, or automation. If I share a project file and you can't see my synth settings, my EQ settings, my compressors, my limiters... then what help is that going to be?

A: individually recorded tracks, muting all other tracks on export. I realize if they were paid for it would still be frowned upon if tracks from 'A' were sampled... but for a lot of people it might be an option to release their specific instrument lines. Pixietricks did with her own remix competition on her site; large zips of loops and vocal tracks.

There's no problem with exporting single tracks that used sampled instruments. What I meant was that if you buy Reason Pianos and use it in a project, it would be unethical to then give everyone who wants to look at your project a copy of Reason Pianos for free.

Anyway, this is certainly not a bad idea, but there are two big issues. One is that it's a big pain to export everything separately, ESPECIALLY if you're using FL (which would be.. hundreds of ReMixers) since it doesn't really handle audio or MIDI in "tracks". It took hours to set up the files for that remix compo. Plus, what does it really do? You can't tell HOW the person made the loop. Yeah, it's kind of interesting as a novelty, but listening to BT's remix packs didn't do much to help me improve, for example. What DID help (and inspire) me was watching tutorial videos or collaborating with more experienced mixers.

B: midi files for notation purposes... which could become, in many cases, individual or ensemble sheet music. A lot of vgpianists have been doing this for a while... why not with a lot of the orchestral or orchestral fusion mixes as well? I'd be willing to wager some officially released ocr guitar tabs would make a lot of people happy too.

I'm 100% for this. I love the fact that I can go find Bladiator's sheet music, and I wish MIDIs or sheet music were available for other solo piano tracks. However, this wouldn't apply to all remixes, since many with electronic elements have so much "garbage" MIDI data that it would be confusing to anyone looking at it. Also, same with point A, it's an enormous pain to export anything from FL as a MIDI due to its nonlinear construction of patterns.

To all: please don't misunderstand my intentions. I've always wanted to do as much as possible to help ReMixers to get better and to hopefully inspire people in any way I can. I just don't think that project files or exported tracks are a practical or effective way of doing that. I really believe that video demonstrations (tutorials, walkthroughs) are most useful - basically any way for the original artist to explain HOW they got a sound, WHY they picked it, why it works, any interesting story behind it, and so on. And all that being said I still support the idea of sharing project files that *can* be exported with all components (free samples, soundfonts, Reason stuff, etc.)

[analoq]

This precise concept has been proposed before and someone even worked on such a site and nothing much came of it; the idea has little feasibility for reasons already mentioned.

Your best bet is to make a thread requesting project files or probe individual remixers for their project materials and take what you can get.

cheers.

[Moseph]

Maybe we could have a sticky thread in the workshop or reviews forum for ReMix Tours, where remixers could link to screencap videos discussing how specific ReMixes were constructed, or link to the project files themselves if they're useful.

Or they could post this stuff in the review thread for the ReMix in question. If I ever get a ReMix subbed/accepted, I plan to post at very least a detailed breakdown of the software that I used for it in the mix's review thread.

EDIT: If it becomes common practice to do a video/project file/discussion of the mix's construction in the review thread, it would be good to have a tag for it so such info would be searchable.

[PassivePretentiousness]

Creating a database of SOME recordings/tracks/whatnot could be interesting if people would end up literally remixing the ReMixes or using them in a mashup. I'm think The Gray Album, for what it's worth.

If there was a gray album-ish project done with tracks from OCR, that would be AWESOME.

[ella guro]

Yes but frankly I don't think that is analogous here. How often do you hear people saying "I have this great idea, but don't know how to implement it?" I hear that all the time. Everyone has musical ideas. On the other hand, how many people say "I'm a production whiz and know how to implement all of my ideas. I just don't have any ideas to begin with?" I don't know of anyone like that. If you look at the VAST majority of remixes we get, the most glaring problems are typically related to production, not arrangement. It's relatively uncommon that we tell someone they had amazing production but had no idea what they were doing when it came to arranging the song.

I'll be the first to say that I learned a LOT from guys like tefnek and Unknown, when I collaborated with them. I'm just really skeptical that having a few unorganized MIDI scraps and 90% missing plugins will have the same effect.

Technical stuff is much easier to ask and get a straight answer on. It's often hard to ask a specific question about how to arrange, and I don't think a lot of people know how to ask those questions and phrase it in the way they want to. Looking at another person's arrangement might not give you an easy 1-to-1 answer of how to do something specific, but it might inspire you and give you arrangement ideas for the future. There are people like Nase who have complicated arrangements that I'd really like to see the files for so I know how he pulled it off. So it can still be useful.

There's no problem with exporting single tracks that used sampled instruments. What I meant was that if you buy Reason Pianos and use it in a project, it would be unethical to then give everyone who wants to look at your project a copy of Reason Pianos for free.

In Reason, you can make your files self-contained, and that will make soundfonts and other samples be included in the project file. But it doesn't do that with refills. So unless you have that specific refill, you won't be able to load up the sample.

In the past I've provided my source files because I use free samples, and the refills that I did use that didn't come with Reason could be found for free online. I obviously agree that people shouldn't include something they paid for.

To all: please don't misunderstand my intentions. I've always wanted to do as much as possible to help ReMixers to get better and to hopefully inspire people in any way I can. I just don't think that project files or exported tracks are a practical or effective way of doing that. I really believe that video demonstrations (tutorials, walkthroughs) are most useful - basically any way for the original artist to explain HOW they got a sound, WHY they picked it, why it works, any interesting story behind it, and so on. And all that being said I still support the idea of sharing project files that *can* be exported with all components (free samples, soundfonts, Reason stuff, etc.)

I'm all for tutorial videos. I think that's a great idea. But there is only so much you can cover in a video. When possible it's nice to be able to see things firsthand and be able to mess around with them. Maybe in some cases a mixer could provide some source files and a video. It all depends on how easily they can make their stuff available, of course.

In general, I think we all agree. Having people share their knowledge is always a good thing and should be encouraged.

[Rozovian]

I think it's an interesting idea, albeit with the slight flaw zircon pointed out. However, remixers could send whatever data they want and feel are the most useful, whether that's a midi, a project file (with mostly built-in/free sounds), audio files (separate, rarred/zipped mp3s, not wav (wavs are huuge)), a pre-mastering mp3/wav, just the vocal/guitar/melodica performance or whatever.

On a related note, a "came with the program" competition would be cool. The cheapest, most limited, most entry-level tool you can use (and use only that) to make the coolest remix/original/something. No samples imported unless they came with the DAW, no effects that didn't come with the DAW, no external editing, none of that. After the competition, the project files could be released so ppl can examine them, learn from them. Not the same as learning from posted stuff, but there's probably stuff to learn from there too.

[Gollgagh]

On a related note, a "came with the program" competition would be cool. The cheapest, most limited, most entry-level tool you can use (and use only that) to make the coolest remix/original/something. No samples imported unless they came with the DAW, no effects that didn't come with the DAW, no external editing, none of that. After the competition, the project files could be released so ppl can examine them, learn from them. Not the same as learning from posted stuff, but there's probably stuff to learn from there too.

chth and I held ten "Fruity Loops Music Competitions" with this philosophy more or less

if there were interest in rebooting it, I'd be happy to run it again

[Torzelan]

I guess I would agree with Zircon; problem is... Video tutorials have massive problems too.

-> Most people can't/won't do them

---> Most people who do them honestly aren't very good at it

-----> The few people who are good at it don't have a lot of time

-------> Because of Murphy's Law, the time they do have will not be spent covering the parts you're most interested in (EQ'ING MIXING "MASTERING"!)

I still want to see a video of a mix being made from the beginning until it's exported. EVERYTHING. But who, of people such as Zircon himself who are production quality geniuses, has time or will to do something like that? ...

Record yourself making a Grand Robot Master Remix Battle round please.

[djpretzel]

I think it's an interesting idea, albeit with the slight flaw zircon pointed out. However, remixers could send whatever data they want and feel are the most useful, whether that's a midi, a project file (with mostly built-in/free sounds), audio files (separate, rarred/zipped mp3s, not wav (wavs are huuge)), a pre-mastering mp3/wav, just the vocal/guitar/melodica performance or whatever.

Okay, hopefully peeps read this: My present notion is to build a sort of ad-hoc file hosting service for OCR, integrated with the forums but not hosted directly on the primary server (where bandwidth is more of an issue). Such a service would be relatively modular and could potentially handle project files. My other notion is to enable attachments on our forums, which would allow for images and could also probably do MIDI files, as a start. I'd love to do PDFs, for sheet music, but damn does that format have some serious security problems.

I'm in the weeds on my DKC2 mixes and work is busy, so neither of those two things is happening too awful soon, but I'd caution against any sort of super-involved database-driven mega-doodad. I think careful feature consideration and integration with OCR are what will make such functionality actually useful, and while that incurs a delay, it also results in something that folks will use as oppose to abandon/ignore.

On a related note, a "came with the program" competition would be cool. The cheapest, most limited, most entry-level tool you can use (and use only that) to make the coolest remix/original/something. No samples imported unless they came with the DAW, no effects that didn't come with the DAW, no external editing, none of that. After the competition, the project files could be released so ppl can examine them, learn from them. Not the same as learning from posted stuff, but there's probably stuff to learn from there too.

I like this idea a lot... I guess because I had it too, several times But I was just thinking it would be "neat," not necessarily that the resulting project files could be used for instructional purposes. Someone should organize it (hint, wink, nudge, etc.)!

[The Biznut]

I echo Torzelans last statement, that would sure be cool. I doubt it would even need commentary.

As for sharing project files; as has been said previously, aside from a specific set of exceptions, this won't be helpful or useful to many people.

The best form of project sharing, IMO, would be WAV/MP3s of specific instrument, vocal, or rhythm tracks that could be played with and fit into another project. I am ESPECIALLY interested in vocals; I would totally love to have the vocal lines for Permutation or Kindred to play with for example.

[The Biznut]

djp snuck his response in while I was making mine soooooo \doublepost.

On a related note, a "came with the program" competition would be cool. The cheapest, most limited, most entry-level tool you can use (and use only that) to make the coolest remix/original/something. No samples imported unless they came with the DAW, no effects that didn't come with the DAW, no external editing, none of that. After the competition, the project files could be released so ppl can examine them, learn from them. Not the same as learning from posted stuff, but there's probably stuff to learn from there too.

I like this idea a lot... I guess because I had it too, several times But I was just thinking it would be "neat," not necessarily that the resulting project files could be used for instructional purposes. Someone should organize it (hint, wink, nudge, etc.)!

Would participants face off against others using the same DAW? That would level the field...or rather, fields.

[ella guro]

I guess I would agree with Zircon; problem is... Video tutorials have massive problems too.

-> Most people can't/won't do them

---> Most people who do them honestly aren't very good at it

-----> The few people who are good at it don't have a lot of time

-------> Because of Murphy's Law, the time they do have will not be spent covering the parts you're most interested in (EQ'ING MIXING "MASTERING"!)

I didn't think that people who won't do them would be involved in the first place. My impression is this idea was always strictly a volunteer thing, encouraging people who want to put the time into it to do it. If people don't want to do it, then it's up to them. If people aren't good doing video tutorials, maybe someone should make a video tutorial about how to do a good video tutorial

Honestly I think anything that gets people talking about their music and creative choices would be helpful. It doesn't seem like there's enough of that kind of dialogue in the community. I think there's no real reason for more not to try doing a tutorial or providing their source materials if feasible, or both.

[ella guro]

On a related note, a "came with the program" competition would be cool. The cheapest, most limited, most entry-level tool you can use (and use only that) to make the coolest remix/original/something. No samples imported unless they came with the DAW, no effects that didn't come with the DAW, no external editing, none of that. After the competition, the project files could be released so ppl can examine them, learn from them. Not the same as learning from posted stuff, but there's probably stuff to learn from there too.

This is a great idea.

A tracking competition with a sample set provided would be cool too. If only to get people to try out a different way of making music! And most trackers are free, so anyone could participate. I've seen that kind of stuff a lot in the past, but it's always fun and less people seem to use trackers these days.