OCR TF2: Stab stab stab!

[atmuh]

i do

i wrote a 100% crits version of pregame mayhem among a few other basic ones

replacing voice clips would be easy

[ParanoidDrone]

yes skill to me means actual aiming which means you have to practice the class to get good at it

anyone can play spy no matter how little theyve played the class because all you need is half a brain (yes i understand that there are plenty of tf2 players that dont have this) and youll have the common sense to do rather well as spy

its by far my least played class and i have absolutely no problem playing it at all if i ever decide to

theres a reason you dont see "pro" spies playing soldier sniper demo or scout that much

its because those are the classes in the game that require skill and practice to actually be good at

Point taken, but TF2 was sort of designed to cater to several different skillsets. Claiming that under half the classes (by your count) actually require skill to get better at is sort of missing the point of the class system in the first place imo.

Unless you actually want all 9 classes to be homogenized together so that they all require the same basic skillset?

[atmuh]

well lets go through the classes that i didnt mention require what i call skill

pyro - i dont really have to discuss this

spy - been addressed

medic - a very important class yes but just about anyone can play it even reasonably well as long as you just keep the medigun out keep healing and keep moving, very little actual skill

engineer - turtling class where you have your own buddy aimbot to attack for you

heavy - i remember way back when i had i think an hour and a half of heavy i decided to try the class and back because it was on my own server and i owned it someone decided to pocket me since i was the admin and i went 60-10 or better like 3 maps in a row

ridiculously easy class even without a medic

[Scufo]

Soldier, Scout, Demoman and Sniper definitely have higher skill caps than the other classes and that is why they are used in competitive play.

[FireSlash]

all the voices can be overridden in the config file for mapchooser. Shouldn't need to write or modify any plugins.

also I know sourcepawn. But effort

[ParanoidDrone]

well lets go through the classes that i didnt mention require what i call skill

pyro - i dont really have to discuss this

spy - been addressed

medic - a very important class yes but just about anyone can play it even reasonably well as long as you just keep the medigun out keep healing and keep moving, very little actual skill

engineer - turtling class where you have your own buddy aimbot to attack for you

heavy - i remember way back when i had i think an hour and a half of heavy i decided to try the class and back because it was on my own server and i owned it someone decided to pocket me since i was the admin and i went 60-10 or better like 3 maps in a row

ridiculously easy class even without a medic

I'm not arguing that they don't require the same kind of aiming Scout, Sniper, etc. do. (I'm not convinced you need precise aiming with Soldier and Demoman unless you have a fetish for airshots, but w/e.) I am arguing that aiming skill is not the only kind of skill that exists.

In other news, I just turned 21. Yay?

[Chili Con Carnage]

tl;dr version: atmuh got bored and trotted out his usual trolling about skill levels for classes, people rose to the bait. Could we please move on?

[atmuh]

tl;dr version: atmuh got bored and trotted out his usual trolling about skill levels for classes, people rose to the bait. Could we please move on?

opinions (facts) = trolling

i love the internet

and paranoid yeah soldier and demo may not take precise point and click aiming (well soldier does have a hitscan weapon) but the fact that demo has NO hitscan weapon makes him a very difficult class to master

people will say demo is really easy because all you have to do is spam but really once you get off dustbowl or any payload map (spam maps) any kind of braindead sticky spam will get you nowhere and those maps

the kind of prediction involved in firing rockets and pipes at the right spot takes a lot of practice especially with pipes since you have to actually hit people with them

and thats why i say soldier is basically an easier version of demo (dont need to actually connect with rockets and you have a hitscan weapon to back you up)

just like sniper is more or less an easier version of scout

[ParanoidDrone]

tl;dr version: atmuh got bored and trotted out his usual trolling about skill levels for classes, people rose to the bait. Could we please move on?

It was midnight and I was bored. So sue me.

opinions (facts) = trolling

i love the internet

and paranoid yeah soldier and demo may not take precise point and click aiming (well soldier does have a hitscan weapon) but the fact that demo has NO hitscan weapon makes him a very difficult class to master

people will say demo is really easy because all you have to do is spam but really once you get off dustbowl or any payload map (spam maps) any kind of braindead sticky spam will get you nowhere and those maps

the kind of prediction involved in firing rockets and pipes at the right spot takes a lot of practice especially with pipes since you have to actually hit people with them

and thats why i say soldier is basically an easier version of demo (dont need to actually connect with rockets and you have a hitscan weapon to back you up)

just like sniper is more or less an easier version of scout

I would hardly say a shotgun requires the pinpoint accuracy of a headshot, but I digress.

In fact, you illustrated my point for me: Soldier and Demoman don't require twitch aiming, but they DO require prediction of enemy movement so their non-hitscan weapons can do damage. (Compare to hitscan itself, where every shot is a point and click adventure.) Not the same skill, but still skill. Therefore skills other than pure aiming exist and are rewarded in TF2. Which was my point to begin with. I think. I tend to lose track.

[atmuh]

nah see i was saying you need practice to really master those classes even though they are slightly different but for the rest you need a heck of a lot less, if any, practice

you just need common sense

[Dark Chocobo]

But some classes (Soldier, Sniper, Scout, etc) have a higher impact depending on the skill of the player, and that skill is different for each class - or at least requires some change, even if it's slight. Both Sniper and Scout require twitch aiming, but the mobility and in-your-face aspect of the Scout make it a vastly different playstyle, despite it being twitch aiming. A Soldier who knows how to play Soldier will do much, much better than someone new to it, even if they've been playing TF 2 for a while.

Saying that there are no good Spies, just lucky ones, ignores the skillset required by Spies in order for them to have a big impact - knowing when and where to get your targets and the ability to get away fast and intact when the damage is done. It doesn't need the twitch aiming of the Sniper or the hitscan stuff for the Soldier or Demo or the area knowledge/defensive mind of the Engineer.

Good Spy tactics require time to learn and put into application. You can't just start at the class, having amazing common sense, and then top the scoreboard. You need to know the maps, be adjusted to them and where to go, know who is a priority target and the constantly shifting nature of the battlefield. Spy is the class that requires the most mental forethought, at least if you want to be pretty good at it.

Yes, luck plays a big part of it, moreso than any other class. There's a metric ton of variables that come into play when you're a Spy than with any other class - enemy communication, people having gone Pyro and doing spychecking, Engineers who guard their sentries well, and so on. Denying that luck plays a part in Spy is simply wrong, but the skill of the player matters a lot - even if that skill isn't the usual one required in most FPS games.

You can have your viewpoint and opinion on the matter of luck vs skill, but Spy requires a different mindset to play well and be effective. There are those people who can be great at every class, no matter how much they've played it before - bravo for them. In the meantime, the other 95% of TF 2 players will have to put time and effort into the class to learn the ins and outs, and by extension, become good at using that class.

-Summer Glau

[atmuh]

but spies dont have a big impact

[Bleck]

stop signing your posts

[Black Waltz]

but spies dont have a big impact

What about when a DR spy causes the entire team to chase after it? (Doesn't happen often and only against teams that are terrible, I know)

[Nabeel Ansari]

A spy could distract an entire team long enough for an engi to get an offensive sentry set up...

I was playing Waste and there was a DR spy who we were too busy focused on to realize everyone else on the other team was movin up.

[Dark Chocobo]

There's also a crucial backstab to get rid of a fully Ubercharged medic, or killing a medic/heavy combo pushing the cart, or sap-and-stabbing an Engineer and his sentry at a heavy defensive point, or getting rid of a teleporter at their spawn, or taking down some Snipers that keep the team back, or getting rid of a Demo and his stickies that are all over a capture point, or backstabbing a few enemies to stop the cart from being pushed, or spycapping points on CP maps...

I can keep going on, really. I'm sure Paranoid and Chili can think of some more.

[ParanoidDrone]

but spies dont have a big impact

Why? I'd rebut this now, but I'd like to know what your argument is first.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Map specific, but when you go into the corridor down low on the last defense in dustbowl and you come out the other side, the enemy can be thrown into massive confusion.

"Should I kill the spy behind me to prevent him from backstabbing me and others, or should I keep looking forward so I don't get rocketed/stickied/burned/sentry'd from behind?"

A few spies added to that and they can potentially make the enemy surrounded.

[atmuh]

because when a spy is topping the scoreboard its almost always because hes backstabbing most of the people on the team that dont matter

sure there can be an instance when a spy will backstab a medic with an uber ready but the game is not won or lost by that one "big" backstab

its won by the big combat classes and the medic pushing and getting the kills on the opposing teams top players

a spy cant backstab 4 really good players in a row that are all right near each other because after the first or MAYBE the second the other two will realize theres a spy and either kill it or chase it off and the two survivors can then hold the team up while waiting for their teammates to respawn

a solid soldier scout demo or sniper CAN get those 4 kills and really make that jump for the team to push forward and ultimately win the game

A few spies added to that and they can potentially make the enemy surrounded.

yeah man nothin says defense like 3+ spies

[Bleck]

different things work at different relative skill levels in every game

that being said arguing about all this shit is a waste of time

[Nabeel Ansari]

yeah man nothin says defense like 3+ spies

Not defense... redirected offense.

And you fail to realize that when the remaining defenders are focused on a spy or two then that attackers can easily kill them while they're distracted.

[atmuh]

ive been playing the game a heck of a lot longer than you neblix i could go down the list of what you "fail to realize" but i really dont feel like it

[DarkeSword]

ive been playing the game a heck of a lot longer than you neblix i could go down the list of what you "fail to realize" but i really dont feel like it

So belligerent.

[The Derrit]

as far as sentries are concerned engineers shoot at anyone coming anywhere near their setup most times anyways you're not going to sneak up on them

[ParanoidDrone]

because when a spy is topping the scoreboard its almost always because hes backstabbing most of the people on the team that dont matter

sure there can be an instance when a spy will backstab a medic with an uber ready but the game is not won or lost by that one "big" backstab

its won by the big combat classes and the medic pushing and getting the kills on the opposing teams top players

a spy cant backstab 4 really good players in a row that are all right near each other because after the first or MAYBE the second the other two will realize theres a spy and either kill it or chase it off and the two survivors can then hold the team up while waiting for their teammates to respawn

a solid soldier scout demo or sniper CAN get those 4 kills and really make that jump for the team to push forward and ultimately win the game

Because Spies are renowned for their massive kill streaks. Right.

Even backstabbing a single Medic with full Uber pushes back the enemy offensive by at least a minute. A Sentry nest takes a couple of minutes to rebuild if you take one out. Spies are simply the class most able to penetrate enemy defenses in order to take out key targets like that.