Sonic 3 - Another IceCap

[DoctorDisaster]

Hi there -- I've been a bit of a regular on the OCReMix TF2 server for a while, and eventually I started wondering (read: Googling) what OCReMix actually was. As luck would have it, I'm an amateur musician, and thought it would be fun to contribute something.

If first remix + the thread title hasn't already scared you away, upfront I'll promise that this is a pretty counter-intuitive take on IceCap.

I gather from browsing the hosted remixes that the source is a bit... well worn? It's just that it's the first piece of game music I ever messed around with, back when I was just a high schooler with a MIDI sequencer and the default Windows instrument set.

Poetic symmetry! Nostalgia value! Don't hate me!

• Current version (6)
  

• Version 5
  
• Version 4
  
• Version 3
  
  
• Version 2
  
  
• Version 1
  

[ncocs]

First of all, be sure to quote a source, so people can compare.

I like it, overall. I think that some of your instruments are a little too detuned, and they come in a little late for me, and unless that was done on purpose, it's something you might want to fix. I can't really think of anything to add.

At the 3:00 mark, I love that change. I support drastic/not so drastic changes in a song. I love it when that happens/people do that. But the guitar (I think that's what it is) seems a little too fake.

This sounds negative, but I really do like it. Just try to find a way to combine reviewer's comments into your own song.

Good luck!

[Anti-Syne]

Hi and welcome to the forum!

Just listened to your track and for the most part i like the arrangement and instrumentation, but i'm not feeling it as much after 3:10, i appreciate that you're trying to build it up into something else, it's not even that the end section is bad, i'm just not sure it was necessarily where the track seemed to be heading, but hey, that's just my personal opinion.

My main problem with it as a whole however, is the production. Everything seems to be drowned in reverb, so everything loses it's clarity and gets lost in each other, almost like. Pull back the reverb time and wet signal and i reckon it would improve dramatically. I get that you're going for that big spacey sound, but you can still get that with more subtle reverb.

Anyway, sorry that's only a brief critique, i'm sure someone can give you a more detailed one. Keep up with this, it definately has potential.

[Nabeel Ansari]

First of all, be sure to quote a source, so people can compare.

If people need Ice Cap Zone to be linked that's just not right.

[SonicThHedgog]

If people need Ice Cap Zone to be linked that's just not right.

lol. yah ice cap should be known to all.

[SonicThHedgog]

Hi there -- I've been a bit of a regular on the OCReMix TF2 server for a while, and eventually I started wondering (read: Googling) what OCReMix actually was. As luck would have it, I'm an amateur musician, and thought it would be fun to contribute something.

If first remix + the thread title hasn't already scared you away, upfront I'll promise that this is a pretty counter-intuitive take on IceCap. I gather from browsing the hosted remixes that the source is a bit... well worn? It's just that it's the first piece of game music I ever messed around with, back when I was just a high schooler with a MIDI sequencer and the default Windows instrument set.

Poetic symmetry! Nostalgia value! Don't hate me!

The file's just under 5MB. Sorry it's lossy.

Welcome to OcReMix you will love it here

(p.s. dude use soundcloud.com......)

(p.s.s i still use midi programs like home studio on some songs )

BAD COP TIME >: O

theres too much reverb on the bass that needs to be reduced, and it seems like you added reverb to the master mixer channel, i suggest you should add reverb sepretely and work on adding the aproppriate amount.

fix the mixing of volume or EQing on some synth sounds

its a progrssive tune, but the progression is a bit to fast so let some measures repeat (trust me i like progressive stuff)

other then that fix the structure and structure transitions, because in the middle of the song it sounded like you were a DJ transitions to another song in the middle of the Beat Drop of the song so fix the transitions.

Other then that its a nice track indeed. 7.7/10

[DoctorDisaster]

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

Big change for the second version: I decided that the first 32 bars (!) weren't doing much for me, and cut them. Now it starts on the lonely delay piano -- what used to be the bridge. I think this makes the piano conclusion and the tempo shift make more sense, because the sections with the sloppy bass are no longer "home," so to speak.

I've pulled back a bit on the reverb... possibly not enough. Let me know what you think. The change in the arrangement might help this, too. Are there specific instruments/sections that sound too muddy?

I'm sad to report that the fake guitar is actually real guitar. I did have a pretty heavy phaser on one of the parts to help differentiate it, though, so I've taken that away and increased the stereo separation and reduced reverb even more than elsewhere to compensate. The triple-guitar section (now starts around 1:15) is the part I'm most worried about. Is it the fast guitar (starts around 2:16 now) the part you don't like? Maybe fiddling with the settings on my pod and re-recording will help.

I've added some filtered noise and horn parts before the tempo shift, so hopefully they'll feel a little more foreshadowed now. And without the first section, they do technically come in sooner!

Thanks much for getting that link for me, ncocs. Total noob mistake, I imagine.

[DoctorDisaster]

Oh god the number of replies tripled while I was writing.

Sonic: the reverb is on an aux send from the soundboard. There is (was) an awful lot of sound being sent, though. That's been reduced in v.2 along with the decay. Let me know if you think it needs more, as I'm not sure how drastic to be. I'll take a look at the transition for v.3.

EDIT: Oh, and what's the advantage of soundcloud? I happened to have a domain lying around and figured that would be fine...

[SonicThHedgog]

Oh god the number of replies tripled while I was writing.

Sonic: the reverb is on an aux send from the soundboard. There is (was) an awful lot of sound being sent, though. That's been reduced in v.2 along with the decay. Let me know if you think it needs more, as I'm not sure how drastic to be. I'll take a look at the transition for v.3.

EDIT: Oh, and what's the advantage of soundcloud? I happened to have a domain lying around and figured that would be fine...

lets people analyze wav form of music, loads a ***** load faster then (some) domain, and offers free download, up to 2 hours of music can be stored for free (yes you can remove to gain time ) and contest on facebook etc..... same with beatportal(beatport) but im not fermilier with that site. heres an example http://soundcloud.com/aires/iced-puppet

hmm im assuming your using a pedal for reverb, what daw do you record to. i suggest using a vst reverb and route the reverb and amount to tracks.

yah like i said it only seems that reverb and mixing are the main problems and other problems like song structure, but this track is really good.

[DoctorDisaster]

I'm recording through a pod into Goldwave, which I just use to trim the length of files, and mixing in Reason. The "bass" track from the slow sections is getting its reverb and delay from the pod, you're right. Any changes there will have to be re-recorded, which in hindsight was a brilliant move. The reverb on the guitar solos is handled in software, thank god. For v.3 I might cut it entirely and see what the pod-only tracks sound like.

I'm totally self-taught, so bear with my slow responses as I look up acronyms like "daw."

[Nabeel Ansari]

Soundcloud is very tedious. I usually just upload my files to Mediafire or another file sharing site and distribute WiP's that way.

[ncocs]

I like version 2, but at the beginning, the piano and guitar seem on different tempos, or in other words, the guitar comes in half way through a beat, making it sound weird. I guess if this was done on purpose, I'll stop complaining about it, but I think it'd be wise to do something about it. Don't get me wrong--I do like v2. But some parts (instruments, ADSR) of it weren't awesome to start with.

Keep working at it. And please believe me when I say I don't mean to sound harsh. That's just how I happen to sound.

[ncocs]

If people need Ice Cap Zone to be linked that's just not right.

At first, I didn't know what the Ice Cap Zone bgm was. But after getting on this site, I remembered it. Just wanted to make sure that everyone knew where he was coming from.

[DoctorDisaster]

at the beginning, the piano and guitar seem on different tempos, or in other words, the guitar comes in half way through a beat

FYI: this is a huge problem with mixing in Reason, and any time something sounds out of sync, it probably is. I can't see waveforms for anything I record. Please do bring these up! I've moved the sound a tiny bit earlier; let me know if that helps.

Which means, yes, version 3 is here. To build a sense of continuity, I've tried to move as many motifs as will sensibly fit onto the opposite side of the tempo change. Mainly this means more horns earlier and more piano later.

I've tried to have more bleed over the transition itself to make it less harsh, which is trickier than it sounds. I stole the beep beep beep trick from the Airbag/Paranoid Android transition in the bass, so let me know if that sounds stupid in this context.

Less reverb on everything, period. Less delay in many cases, too, in case that was compounding the problem. I also cut liberally from the high end on the slow bass.

And now I am going to take a break and search for hats in TF2.

P.S. None of the comments here have seemed at all harsh to me. It's been very constructive and helpful all around. Thanks again!

[DoctorDisaster]

BUNP

Changes in version 4 are mostly polish. I've beefed up the treble a little on the whole mix to combat muddiness, added stereo separation on the drums, threw some LFO panning on the piano delay, and played with levels a bit. I also added one (1) extra beep to the tempo shift transition.

So, yeah, mostly production stuff. But please make more fundamental suggestions if they occur to you!

[SonicThHedgog]

BUNP

Changes in version 4 are mostly polish. I've beefed up the treble a little on the whole mix to combat muddiness, added stereo separation on the drums, threw some LFO panning on the piano delay, and played with levels a bit. I also added one (1) extra beep to the tempo shift transition.

So, yeah, mostly production stuff. But please make more fundamental suggestions if they occur to you!

getting better, alot of the artist here on these boards are self taught and me too.

and honestly your doing alot better then you think.

this is sweat great revamp but the guitars sound a tad dry, add a bit of reverb to them

8.7/10

Soundcloud is very tedious. I usually just upload my files to Mediafire or another file sharing site and distribute WiP's that way.

its pretty fast on my side, unless you mean uploading but that is also fast on my side too

[DoctorDisaster]

this is sweat great revamp but the guitars sound a tad dry, add a bit of reverb to them

AAAAAGH

[ncocs]

FYI: this is a huge problem with mixing in Reason, and any time something sounds out of sync, it probably is. I can't see waveforms for anything I record. Please do bring these up! I've moved the sound a tiny bit earlier; let me know if that helps.

Which means, yes, version 3 is here. To build a sense of continuity, I've tried to move as many motifs as will sensibly fit onto the opposite side of the tempo change. Mainly this means more horns earlier and more piano later.

I've tried to have more bleed over the transition itself to make it less harsh, which is trickier than it sounds. I stole the beep beep beep trick from the Airbag/Paranoid Android transition in the bass, so let me know if that sounds stupid in this context.

Less reverb on everything, period. Less delay in many cases, too, in case that was compounding the problem. I also cut liberally from the high end on the slow bass.

And now I am going to take a break and search for hats in TF2.

P.S. None of the comments here have seemed at all harsh to me. It's been very constructive and helpful all around. Thanks again!

Better, but I still think that it could be a tad bit earlier. It could go either way.

[DoctorDisaster]

Everyone but me is probably bored with this, and even I'm already starting work on what will probably be my next mix. (Apparently we haven't got anything from Rocket Knight Adventures? For shame!) So unless there's a sudden outpouring of feedback the next step is probably mod review.

I went a little stir crazy on version 5 and made a composition change. The formerly subdued horns that heralded the tempo change are now a lot less subdued. They still play the familiar melody, but now I've added totally unfamiliar harmonies, culminating in an aberrant major chord that dissolves into the breakdown.

I also triple-checked the timing on the guitars. The performance (at least on the slow side of the tempo change) is intentionally a little loose, so this is tricky, but the solos definitely come in at the right moments, and the three-guitar round seems to be jiving with itself. I also added back some of the guitar reverb I had taken away in my crusade against any and all things echoey -- they really did get too dry there for a while.

[DoctorDisaster]

Annnnnnnd as promised, I'm bumping this and switching it over to Mod Review.

[SonicThHedgog]

Everyone but me is probably bored with this, and even I'm already starting work on what will probably be my next mix. (Apparently we haven't got anything from Rocket Knight Adventures? For shame!) So unless there's a sudden outpouring of feedback the next step is probably mod review.

I went a little stir crazy on version 5 and made a composition change. The formerly subdued horns that heralded the tempo change are now a lot less subdued. They still play the familiar melody, but now I've added totally unfamiliar harmonies, culminating in an aberrant major chord that dissolves into the breakdown.

I also triple-checked the timing on the guitars. The performance (at least on the slow side of the tempo change) is intentionally a little loose, so this is tricky, but the solos definitely come in at the right moments, and the three-guitar round seems to be jiving with itself. I also added back some of the guitar reverb I had taken away in my crusade against any and all things echoey -- they really did get too dry there for a while.

dude your domain is so slow ;O

im starting to have thaughts on the intro snares, im thinking you should make it more of a progressive drum line and hold the snare til 00.38

and you fixed the transitions sweet. this is going well, keep at it unless you feel its good

[WillRock]

Ok so you've asked for a Mod Review...

Going to assume therefore this is finished and getting final crits for subbing.

Basically I'm going to come out with this straight. This will not pass the judges at OCR, its going to need alot of work in execution.

The arrangement starts off ok, but the production is a mess. The piano is really piercing to my ears, you need to fix that to start off with. The guitar sounds like its over-processed with chorus and reverb... not a bad idea, but you need to work on execution there... maybe less wet signals might help with the guitar. Its also lacks tightness playing wise which doesn't go down so well with me.

The bass is a marginable problem as well... it takes up a lot of frequencies and muds up the sound alot, sounds like there is delay on it as well which is a no no. Just removing the delay will help a lot. Alot of the sounds don't quite mesh properly either, you might want to work on your sound choices.

That transition midway through seems a bit unusually placed... like you didn't know where to take it next so you just changed the pacing. It doesn't quite fit, and the transition, while ok isn't great, it sounds like you crossfaded the end of one rendition into the intro of another one. Other than this, the arrangment isn't so bad, but you could do alot more in terms of variation - use different instruments, add a breakdown or two.

Sorry if this seem negative, it isn't a bad start imo, but what this needs is work and a fair amount if you want to get passed the judges.

Good luck

[DoctorDisaster]

Not at all, Willrock -- the entire reason I bumped it up a level is because the feedback seemed to be flagging a little. The pickier the critique, the better! A major reason I decided to start submitting stuff here was to improve my production, which seems to be one of the site's primary bugaboos.

I did boost the treble a bit on the piano -- I wanted it to occupy the higher frequencies while the guitar settled in a lower range. This also gave it, for lack of a less obvious descriptor, an icy quality that I liked. There's also a loop lurking in the piano delay that might be causing it to feel piercing -- for reference, here's a short clip of the piano on the left channel and the loop on the right.

So, for the piano: I can tone down the treble boost, tone down the delay return (or eq out some of its high freqs) in case that's causing unpleasant spikes, pull back on or remove the loop, or rummage around for a different piano sampler. What do you think would be the best approach?

I can redo the guitar recordings with drier effects. I'm not sure I want to significantly tighten up the playing, at least in the slow section; the first half is intended to be a bit loose as a counter-intuitive take on the source and to contrast with the second half.

There are two bass instruments in the song. I think you're talking about the first half, where I recorded a guitar as bass. (Yes, there's a bit of delay on it. I might have gotten a bit carried away.) However, I've eq'ed out all but the lowest frequencies on the live "bass," so maybe you're talking about the fast section's programmed synth bass when you say it's taking up too much space. Could you please clarify?

The transition is really stark. You're the second person to liken it to a DJ crossfading between two different songs. The problem is that I kind of like that. Not to get my head too far up my own ass with the "imagery" and "themes" of my three-minute video game remix song, but it feels to me like the transition between riding up a ski lift and going down the mountain. So, if this is just a question of style, I'll probably stick with the stark shift. However, if you're thinking I could get a better version of the same effect with some changes, I'm totally open to suggestions.

Also, if you (or anybody!) have Reason and want to take a look at the raw version of the song to get a better idea of what I can improve, I would be happy to share it.

Sonic, pretty much the only thing I miss from the section I cut is that slowly building, unpredictable kick part. I'll take another look at the drums and see if I can work in something similar.

And if anything, my inclination is to keep going back to the drawing board forever. There's little chance I'll ever just say "it's good" and throw in the towel while you guys are still offering suggestions.

After re-reading the FAQ on mod reviews, I realized I mixed up the order "mod review" and "finished" are supposed to come in. My apologies -- editing the first post accordingly. Please don't stop critting, though!

[DoctorDisaster]

v.6 is up

I wasn't entirely confident I was interpreting your feedback correctly, so there might be a bit of flailing in this version's arrangement changes. Any babies mixed in with that bathwater?

I think I figured out what Will was referring to with his comments on the bass. If I'm right, he was talking about the source's bassline, which I had swapped onto a synth in the low mids and then doubled on the fast section's synth bass. I've put it on a new instrument which is much less prominent and occupies higher frequencies. Let me know if you think the new synth is too gentle on the outro, fighting with the guitars early on, or diminishing the fast bit.

I've combined a couple of the piano fixes I thought of, so that I could do each more gently. The treble boost is removed, and I've put a separate eq on the delay and cut its highs a bit, just in case they were colliding with the dry piano and getting jangly.

I also reprogrammed the drums that accompany the piano arpeggios in the first section, switching to an irregular pattern that deemphasizes the beat. But its irregularity makes it more noticeable -- do you think it's distracting from the guitar, which comes in at the same time?

I haven't gotten around to re-recording the guitars. I thought these changes were significant enough to need consideration separately.