SEGA Removing "Poor" and "Average" Sonic Titles From Retail

[Bleck]

Making a game demo for a computer != developing a game that fits within XBLA/WiiWare/PSN standards, plays at a normal speed, meets memory requirements, etc. It's really ignorant to suggest that. As a game developer myself, I've seen firsthand that even a VERY SIMPLE game with no physics engine or 3D graphics can run flawlessly on PC and yet fail the tech requirements to run properly on a console.

as long as you aren't implying that the heavy faults of sonic 4 are justified because it is difficult to develop for wiiware/psn/xbla, I agree

[Calpis]

So far I haven't seen any "heavy" faults of the game.

Have you guys gone back and played, say, Mario 64 versus Sunshine or Galaxy? The physics (the main complaint I've heard about Sonic 4 versus the old games) feel very different from each other. Does it "ruin" them as Mario games? No.

I agree with Kotaku's review, Sonic 4 doesn't look like it deserves the title of a full sequel, but it honestly looks like the same game it's always been. I just think you guys are blinded by nostalgia and can't look at the game objectively.

[AkumajoBelmont]

So far I haven't seen any "heavy" faults of the game.

Have you guys gone back and played, say, Mario 64 versus Sunshine or Galaxy? The physics (the main complaint I've heard about Sonic 4 versus the old games) feel very different from each other. Does it "ruin" them as Mario games? No.

I agree with Kotaku's review, Sonic 4 doesn't look like it deserves the title of a full sequel, but it honestly looks like the same game it's always been. I just think you guys are blinded by nostalgia and can't look at the game objectively.

Not blinded by nostalgia at all:

http://sonicfanremix.com/

I have a hat you can eat.

[Bleck]

Have you guys gone back and played, say, Mario 64 versus Sunshine or Galaxy? The physics (the main complaint I've heard about Sonic 4 versus the old games) feel very different from each other. Does it "ruin" them as Mario games? No.

the difference here is that mario is getting better and better and sonic is getting worse and worse

watch this and be enlightened

[zircon]

Isn't it fair to say though that whether you want the physics of Sonic 4 or the physics of Sonic 1-3 a matter of preference? I never played the original trliogy much (though I have played them and own S3&K) so I'm not enamored with any particular mechanic. When I watch the original Sonic footage in that review, to me everything looks overly slippery and loose. Yeah, Sonic 4 is overly tight sometimes (playing it, the only thing that bothered me was the loss of momentum in midair) but I don't think one could objectively say the insane degree of slipperiness in the originals was necessarily the gold standard.

[Calpis]

AB: I already saw that and I don't see how that will make me eat my hat, especially after Zircon's comments.

Bleck: I posted that clip a couple days ago. It's meaningless ranting about physics details that only fanboys think is important.

I'll agree that there have been a bunch of bad Sonic games lately, but it's getting to the point that fans are getting hyper-sensitive about small issues.

[AkumajoBelmont]

Isn't it fair to say though that whether you want the physics of Sonic 4 or the physics of Sonic 1-3 a matter of preference? I never played the original trliogy much (though I have played them and own S3&K) so I'm not enamored with any particular mechanic. When I watch the original Sonic footage in that review, to me everything looks overly slippery and loose. Yeah, Sonic 4 is overly tight sometimes (playing it, the only thing that bothered me was the loss of momentum in midair) but I don't think one could objectively say the insane degree of slipperiness in the originals was necessarily the gold standard.

I understand your POV, but I'm gonna have to disagree.

Regardless, the mechanics you mentioned are the mechanics that Sonic was born into... it's what made Sonic, well Sonic. I have played the originals probably more than any other game franchise, and to do a numbered, sequel and have it so different, is kinda misguided. It's not really a matter of preference... there's plenty more ways that a new Sonic title could be expanded whilst keeping to the core mechanics that made the originals so satisfying.

If they called it Sonic Rush HD or something similar, then I don't think the backlash would have been anywhere near as harsh.

People can say what they like about Sonic fans being vocal and 'never being satisfied'... but how can we be? If this is the best they could come up with, then that's a real cause for concern.

[AkumajoBelmont]

AB: I already saw that and I don't see how that will make me eat my hat, especially after Zircon's comments.

No, I offered you MY hat to eat

[Calpis]

Not blinded by nostalgia at all:

I have played the originals probably more than any other game franchise

Yeah you're probably not biased at all. You seem like a very reliable source of objective analysis.

[Bleck]

When I watch the original Sonic footage in that review, to me everything looks overly slippery and loose.

I don't really think that having mostly-accurate replications of the concepts of acceleration, deceleration and gravity are really anything that anybody in their right mind can complain about

I'll agree that there have been a bunch of bad Sonic games lately, but it's getting to the point that fans are getting hyper-sensitive about small issues.

if you've been reading any of my posts you'd know that I am anything but a fan of fucking Sonic games

the thing isn't really that fans are overreacting to anything - the thing is that this game is really shitty

[Calpis]

Fair enough. The fanboy comment wasn't specifically about you though. Thing is I haven't heard/seen a real reason to call this a really shitty game. I don't see a perfect game, just not down to the level most harsh critics are talking it down to be.

[zircon]

I don't really think that having mostly-accurate replications of the concepts of acceleration, deceleration and gravity are really anything that anybody in their right mind can complain about

Well... yes, they can. 100% realistic physics are actually not really fun. How would you like having 0 control over your jump, for example? Have you ever played games like Castlevania I-III or Faxanadu? Obviously a real person can't jump forward, and then in mid-jump, start moving backwards, but games like Sonic and Mario let you do this. We enjoy it, even though it absolutely disobeys the laws of physics and momentum completely. But THAT violation is OK, whereas other violations aren't? That's why I'm saying it boils down to preference.

[LuketheXjesse]

Sonic 4 sucks.

[Bleck]

We enjoy it, even though it absolutely disobeys the laws of physics and momentum completely. But THAT violation is OK, whereas other violations aren't?

Yes, because that violation is something that you do in control of your character.

Affecting momentum in mid-air is acceptable. Being incapable of having momentum in midair, for no justifiable reason other than people who are likely incapable of coding? That's just dumb.

[zircon]

Yes, because that violation is something that you do in control of your character.

What? That makes no sense. The complaint that some people have with Sonic 4 is that they have too much control over the game physics, and that makes it somehow unrealistic or 'weird'.

My point was that it was already unrealistic in the original Sonic games, so the complaint that it doesn't obey the normal laws is bogus because the entire topic entirely subjective. If you have a problem with too much control, then why don't you have a problem with unnatural changes in direction and momentum in jump physics for example?

[Brushfire]

Sonic 4 sucks.

Sonic 4 Sucks.

[AkumajoBelmont]

Yeah you're probably not biased at all. You seem like a very reliable source of objective analysis.

So I'm not allowed to like something a lot. Awesome. That means I know nothing about the franchise and I should listen to someone who doesn't like the franchise tell me what I want.

[PriZm]

lol at the "sega are shitty programmers" argument

you have no idea what you are talking about

[The Phalanx]

lol at the "sega are shitty programmers" argument

you have no idea what you are talking about

And you do?

[PriZm]

And you do?

no but i don't pretend i do

it might have been a design decision, might have been shitty programming

i don't know

i guess it just struck home since i actually have been a game programmer and it is surprising how gamers like to place the blame on programmers' incompetence and/or laziness

[Schwaltzvald]

I guess it just struck home since i actually have been a game programmer and it is surprising how gamers like to place the blame on programmers' incompetence and/or laziness

Do take note that unless you've been caught being lazy/horrible or known to be as such as a game programmer, you really shouldn't take it personally as none of it was directed towards you; especially if you did not have a hand on any of the sonic games past 1-S&K.

As for blaming programmers in general for buggy/broken games...

More often than not, it can be justified if there's a history of it within a series.

[Calpis]

More often than not, it can be justified if there's a history of it within a series.

Or if there's a history of tight deadlines, small budgets, or a bad game engine (if it wasn't made from scratch) that they were required to start from. Or any combination of those factors that can ruin the game. Bad games aren't always due to "shitty programmers". If there isn't enough time in the day to make a polished game and the budget doesn't allow for a larger development team, then it's not the programmers' fault that it was "bad".

A little off-topic:

I think that's one aspect that bugs me about a lot of gamers recently. They don't realize (or maybe care) that it costs a huge chunk of money to make a game, and in the end the business needs to make sure that they get a sizeable ROI. I think in the current state of the world, only Nintendo (maybe a couple others) really has the assets needed to be idealistic in their games and take a risk. Sonic 4 is a downloadable and I'm guessing that because it's going for what, ~$10 that the budget was pretty small.

Gamers don't care about the business end at all. Sure, that's not their role in all of this, but it just bugs me that they feel they have to pick apart every game if it doesn't meet every expectation of the game they've been making in their mind.

[Level 99]

Could also just be bad management decisions on Sega's part. Let us not forget what happened with Sonic Xtreme or NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams (see development history, last paragraph). PriZm has a good point that it may not be lazy/bad programmers. If the programmers want to get paid (and aren't getting paid on a sales basis), they have to follow management's decisions.

[lazygecko]

Or if there's a history of tight deadlines, small budgets, or a bad game engine (if it wasn't made from scratch) that they were required to start from. Or any combination of those factors that can ruin the game. Bad games aren't always due to "shitty programmers". If there isn't enough time in the day to make a polished game and the budget doesn't allow for a larger development team, then it's not the programmers' fault that it was "bad".

A little off-topic:

I think that's one aspect that bugs me about a lot of gamers recently. They don't realize (or maybe care) that it costs a huge chunk of money to make a game, and in the end the business needs to make sure that they get a sizeable ROI. I think in the current state of the world, only Nintendo (maybe a couple others) really has the assets needed to be idealistic in their games and take a risk. Sonic 4 is a downloadable and I'm guessing that because it's going for what, ~$10 that the budget was pretty small.

Gamers don't care about the business end at all. Sure, that's not their role in all of this, but it just bugs me that they feel they have to pick apart every game if it doesn't meet every expectation of the game they've been making in their mind.

You start raising some eyebrows though when they get upstaged by a small team of hobbyists (or in some cases a single person) with a fraction of the same resources.

[Schwaltzvald]

You start raising some eyebrows though when they get upstaged by a small team of hobbyists (or in some cases a single person) with a fraction of the same resources.

holyshit this