Zelda: Majora's Mask - "StoneTowerTemplate_7" Title WIP XD

[Kylethedarkn]

I was asked to create a remix of a song from Majora's Mask and I chose to do Stone Tower Temple(Surprising Huh?). In the process of writing it, I've decided, that in addition to getting general feedback from the somewhat knowledgeable OCR community, to try and maybe turn this into OCR quality.

Here's my one main gripe though. I don't want to change the source material so far, that it completely loses the feeling and meaning of the original song. I want a remix, not a reinterpretation so much. That being said, I'm not opposed to some changes, just don't suggest changing the original chord progression or anything like that. XD

Without further adieu: http://www.box.net/shared/qoy7dq5xk7

Update 1: http://www.box.net/shared/acmy48avjj

U[date 2: http://www.box.net/shared/hblelk30tm

So with that posted, feel free to leave comments and critique, good or bad. Personally, I'm really liking this remix.

[Rozovian]

I'd be more bothered by a melody with weird added notes than a new chord progression if someone gave me a remix they said was conservative. Just sayin'.

Too basic synths imo. The intro bass is especially jarring and newby while alone and exposed. Everything could be mixed better into the music. The 1:32 "chorus" thing is especially newby. Drums get boring, but sound ok. They'd probably do well to get some mixing adjustments to stay in their place like all instruments should.

Improve the sounds, fit them better together with volume, eq, and reverb.

You've got a great source to work with, do it justice.

[DaMonz]

Just chiming in to say that I think you're using the "reverse cymbal" fill and snare roll fill way too often.

Don't give up! ^^

[Kylethedarkn]

I'd be more bothered by a melody with weird added notes than a new chord progression if someone gave me a remix they said was conservative. Just sayin'.

Too basic synths imo. The intro bass is especially jarring and newby while alone and exposed. Everything could be mixed better into the music. The 1:32 "chorus" thing is especially newby. Drums get boring, but sound ok. They'd probably do well to get some mixing adjustments to stay in their place like all instruments should.

Improve the sounds, fit them better together with volume, eq, and reverb.

You've got a great source to work with, do it justice.

Well the core of a song is it's progression. While the melody is also important, it can be changed and you can still keep the feel of it.

Basic/Newbie meaning what? 15 oscillators too few? XD

I'm not sure what you mean at 1:32 as nothing new comes in there, and there's nothing relating to a chorus.

Also the drums right now are pretty fillery.

And I'll work on the other fills.

Also, thanks for the replies, but production quality isn't a concern of mine too much at this stage. I'd like more feedback on the song itself. The melodies, the rhythms, the harmonies, that sort of thing.

[Rozovian]

Well the core of a song is it's progression. While the melody is also important, it can be changed and you can still keep the feel of it.

That's a matter of interpretation, but it's your remix so it's up to you what you do. And there's a big difference between adapting a melody to new rhythms or harmonies, and just adding notes. You do both, but the adding of notes, especially in the higher melodies, gets annoying. Doesn't help that the sound is annoyingly newby/simple/basic/primitive/raw.

Basic/Newbie meaning what? 15 oscillators too few? XD

The number of oscillators has very little to do with how complex a sound really is (except in FM synthesis depending on their routing), as much of the qualities of the sound doesn't come from the oscillators, but from how the sound changes over time on a scale of milliseconds to seconds. Envelopes and LFOs controlling filter and other parameters in the synth turn it from a raw oscillator sound to a complex and living sound. You're doing some automation with the bass from 0:20 and on, opening the filter, but doing this in the space of individual notes requires working with the synth, with envelopes, to make the sound seem like more than just a looped waveform.

Furthermore, without placing the sounds in their own frequency area, and their own prominence "area", everything bleeds together into a mess.

I'm not sure what you mean at 1:32 as nothing new comes in there, and there's nothing relating to a chorus.

More like 1:28 then, got the time wrong. That part has the most instruments playing, and it's a cluttered mess of sounds all vying for each others' space. Messy. Volume, eq, and reverb. Volume to decide which ones are foreground and background - reverb to push the background ones further back - and eq to separate the sounds from each other.

Also, thanks for the replies, but production quality isn't a concern of mine too much at this stage. I'd like more feedback on the song itself. The melodies, the rhythms, the harmonies, that sort of thing.

I work with sound and writing in parallel, which means I won't get used to an old sound while writing. I still have to fix various mix problem after the writing is done, but it's so much easier when I can write for the instruments' strength and hear approximately how it's gonna sound when the mix is done. I'm just warning you that getting used to simple, basic temp sounds means you can become deaf to how to improve the sound of the mix.

Anyway, the progression... It starts off with a way too exposed bass followed by an added drum track. From 0:27 and on you've got two more instruments playing, and added strings shortly thereafter. Main melody comes in at 0:41, with only a block-based (add instrument x loop, add instrument y loop) build-up leading up to it. Then you have a second "chorus" part with a high leading melody at 1:28 (and lots of clutter). It goes on like this, block-based additions being looped and then removed. it also seems like you're rushing the whole mix in a lack of arrangement ideas. While it's difficult to change the mix interestingly without screwing with the source some, this mix kind'a needs it. It might work better with improved sounds and mixing, but I think the writing would have to be more varied and better paced.

Hard criticism.

[Kylethedarkn]

Alrighty, thank you. I can already see we have different philosophies on music, but I will still take your advice.

I'm not a production asshat in the least. Midi can sound just as good as a full orchestra to me, similarly a fully produced electronica song will sound just as good in 8-bit. XD That being said, my sound equipment is either 30 dollar Creative 2.1 computer speakers, or a pair of sennheiser HD 280 pros. Besides a little refining, everything sounds well mixed and in the right "place."

I like simple, but just for knowledge sake, how would an LFO change the sound of a synth, it would really only just add a little variation. Also if you could, can you show me the difference between what a simple synth sounds like and what a complex one does.

Last two questions.

What is wrong with exposed bass?

and

What other way is there to introduce new instruments other than just adding or removing them after having a fill or break? I mean some instruments I filter sweeped in, but other than that I don't see any other way.

[Rozovian]

I'm not a production asshat in the least. Midi can sound just as good as a full orchestra to me, similarly a fully produced electronica song will sound just as good in 8-bit. XD That being said, my sound equipment is either 30 dollar Creative 2.1 computer speakers, or a pair of sennheiser HD 280 pros. Besides a little refining, everything sounds well mixed and in the right "place."

Implying the ppl who take the time to listen and critique your work are production asshats is a great way to not get feedback from them anymore.

With the cluttered mess you have during the busy sections, everything does not sound well mixed and in the right "place". Rather, it sounds like you can't tell the difference. This is not a listening setup problem, this is a mixing, or hearing, problem.

Also, you're getting things mixed up. If you take an electronic mix and downsample it to 8-bit and can't hear anything wrong with it, there's something wrong with the song or with your ears. Likewise comparing a real orchestra to midi. This just tells me you don't listen critically, which will be highly detrimental to your mixing.

I like simple, but just for knowledge sake, how would an LFO change the sound of a synth, it would really only just add a little variation. Also if you could, can you show me the difference between what a simple synth sounds like and what a complex one does.

Depends on what you want it to do, depends on what sound you're making. For a dubstep bass, I could use an lfo to control the filter, and use the modulation wheel to control the lfo rate. I can use an lfo to produce a gating effect, or just to screw with the pitch of an oscillator. Likewise with an envelope, which I can have control pitch, filter, oscillator levels, distortion, or whatever I want, depending on the sound I'm going for.

Simple is great when done right, and halc and others do a great job with simple. But if you listen to this by Nase, you'll hear lots of simple instruments each given its own place in the arrangement and mixing.

Here, a quick demo of a raw saw followed by an Absynth patch. It's a terrible thing to demo since you could just go listen to the presets in whatever synths you've got, then turn off filter and additional oscillator and modulation routings to get a simple sound out of it - and compare. That way you have full access to go forth and back to compare, you can try them out in different contexts - you can't compare a simple sound used as a lead to a complex sound used as something completely different, like a pad or percussion or whatever.

What is wrong with exposed bass?

Nothing when the bass sounds good. When it doesn't, it just sounds newby.

What other way is there to introduce new instruments other than just adding or removing them after having a fill or break? I mean some instruments I filter sweeped in, but other than that I don't see any other way.

A lead-in melody. Not beginning all melodies on the first beat also help, and not doing drastic additions like you did at 0:27. You can fade it in (probably not that great an idea), morph the sound out of an instrument already there or just introduce the instrument earlier and let it play along in lower velocity until it actually has its own thing to do.

[DaMonz]

Chiming in again to strongly suggest you take all of Rozo's feedback seriously. xD

[Kylethedarkn]

Sorry, production asshat, is the term me and my friend coined as someone who takes production quality more seriously than compositional quality.

Also based on what you've defined complex on, all of my synths were complex. All of them had multiple oscillators, envelopes, LFOs, and filters. So I'm not sure what the heck I'm supposed to change, besides varying the filter on the synth or some changes in volume there's really nothing more I can add to them.

I will go over the mix and touch it up a bit, but I don't see it changing too drastically. I will post back when I have it closer to the final mixing I would probably expect.

[PROTO·DOME]

I'm not a production asshat in the least. Midi can sound just as good as a full orchestra to me, similarly a fully produced electronica song will sound just as good in 8-bit. XD

Neither of these things are anything to do with production whatsoever.

Also, Rozo's covered it 100%. Read over what he's said. Arrangement's a little linear and repetitive, you're obviously not a compositional asshat. ;D

[Kylethedarkn]

Neither of these things are anything to do with production whatsoever.

Also, Rozo's covered it 100%. Read over what he's said. Arrangement's a little linear and repetitive, you're obviously not a compositional asshat. ;D

I think you mean I'm not an arrangement asshat.

Also messed around with the mixing. Not sure how to give space to that many instruments at one time, so I'm not sure this is any better. But meh, we'll see. XD

I'll be working on the arrangement later as well in addition to adding some variation to the drums.

http://www.box.net/shared/acmy48avjj

[DaMonz]

Not sure how to give space to that many instruments at one time, so I'm not sure this is any better.

Read Rozo's guide and you'll know.

[Kylethedarkn]

Read Rozo's guide and you'll know.

Oh, I know the methods of doing it, I can just never get the specifics down.

[Kylethedarkn]

Messed with the mixing slightly again. Worked with the drums a bit and various other little things.

Sound better than before?

http://www.box.net/shared/hblelk30tm

[M249-M4A1]

Sounds good so far. What I think you really need to do is split up your sounds. They sound like they are all coming from the center, which is fine and all, but I feel like you're not using enough of the available sound space and automation.

Here's my quick rendition of your intro:

http://tindeck.com/listen/msqg

It's basically a 3x oscillator w/ a synth bass that fades in. I automated the modx on the synth bass and osc#1 and osc#2 get a volume change as the intro progresses. The sound is split left and right channels. There's also a slide note on the 3rd bar that adds a little variation.

I think this would make a big difference in your music, if you choose to use it.

Otherwise, good work! I look forward to seeing more updates! . . . . . . .

[Rozovian]

Not digging the drum sounds or rhythms except the 1:10 part, and the new rhythm at 1:24/1:44 (albeit it's a bit cliched). The instrumentation is a lot cleaner, tho, nice work on that. Lead is a bit too loud so the rest of the instrumentation, esp the bass, falls into the background. Consider using two bass patches, one for the more exposed bass parts, and one that can hold its own against the lead. If you base them on the same sound but muffle/brighten one of them you'd have a similar enough sound but for two different situations in the mix.

Placement. Read up on it. Not just pan, not just brightness, not just reverb, not just volume - and learn to mix the track levels better. It's one of the least sexy but most useful skills to have when you, well, mix.

You should look up old tracker music for some ideas of what you can do with simple sounds. lots of great stuff in there.