liquid wind Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 narrow minded self righteous preaching very productive you're not going to simply shame people into behaving in a manner that is agreeable to you, people have never worked that way and likely never will. people do what they perceive to be most beneficial to them period, just like every other animal on this planet. a more pragmatic approach is finding ways to reward legitimate customers and make it more difficult for pirates. but ranting about how wrong it is repeatedly doesn't accomplish anything, it's just being needlessly antagonistic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 narrow minded self righteous preachingvery productive you're not going to simply shame people into behaving in a manner that is agreeable to you, people have never worked that way and likely never will. people do what they perceive to be most beneficial to them period, just like every other animal on this planet. a more pragmatic approach is finding ways to reward legitimate customers and make it more difficult for pirates. but ranting about how wrong it is repeatedly doesn't accomplish anything, it's just being needlessly antagonistic This is a debate, not a petition. It's part of the discussion to give an answer to "why not pirate?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquid wind Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 rozo did specifically ask for practical solutions even so, I'm saying morality isn't actually a reason to not pirate. ultimately what prevents people from breaking the law constantly is the threat of prison, death, and financial pressure. the morality aspect of it really only factors in when you consider the prospect of being ostracized, which again is just an incentive. people gauge risk:reward and make decisions based on that if he wants to continue that's fine, I just think he's wasting his energy and making things too personal. you aren't getting people to delete all the stuff they've torrented by talking down at them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannthr Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 narrow minded self righteous preachingvery productive you're not going to simply shame people into behaving in a manner that is agreeable to you, people have never worked that way and likely never will. people do what they perceive to be most beneficial to them period, just like every other animal on this planet. a more pragmatic approach is finding ways to reward legitimate customers and make it more difficult for pirates. but ranting about how wrong it is repeatedly doesn't accomplish anything, it's just being needlessly antagonistic It is inarguably wrong, we might as well ask the question: Why not rape a prostitute? I don't feel like coughing up the money, and if we drug her up, she won't remember anyway. That is what you are arguing here. It is not needlessly antagonistic, it is insufficiently antagonistic. Maybe that's okay in Amsterdam, but the Internet is so much bigger and Janis' role in raping game musicians and proudly boasting about it is a problem on a forum that so easily engages this issue like some philosophical masturbation. If you, "Lquid Wind," can be effectual, go right ahead, no one's stopping you, but I doubt you can be. The problem here, on this forum, is not the Jack Holes who pirate, they will always do what they do and the only way to fight them is to expose their asses when they so brazenly drop their pants, no, problem is the youngsters who come here and idolize those guys because of hipster rebel nonsense and likening the effect pirates have on REAL PEOPLE to a numerical system in which they refuse to participate. It is inarguably wrong, and saying it's not is ridiculous. People should not be so proud of doing something wrong, do it, if you must, if you're so compelled by your solipsism, but the pride is disgusting and should not be praised or even remotely acknowledged in a positive light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquid wind Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 It is inarguably wrong, we might as well ask the question: Why not rape a prostitute? I don't feel like coughing up the money, and if we drug her up, she won't remember anyway. her pimp might kill you if we're debating ethics why bring up prostitution anyway, isn't prostitution wrooong to begin with? It is not needlessly antagonistic, it is insufficiently antagonistic. what are you gaining by spewing vitriol at people over an internet forum? if you want to say it's wrong that's one thing, but you use such angry language and harp on the same issue post after post, it makes it seem very personal how can it be insufficiently antagonistic when people will continue doing it no matter how loudly you shout at them? actual penalties deter people, not words of anger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannthr Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 It IS personal. The Game Audio community is special. Developers are tightly knit, we all know eachother, we all know what we do, and even in competition, we are all open and helpful toward one another. Likewise, the game audio fan community is probably one of the best fan communities of any game discipline--no where are the efforts of the developer so specifically honored. We have massive concert tours and we market separate soundtracks. There is nothing like this for any other discipline in game development. Moreover, we are a family and when a member of that family is attacked, we care. Joren De Bruin raped my cousin, and I have a problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 First off, you are a horrible person for comparing internet piracy to actual rape. In fact, calling me a rapist (as well as your other insult flinging) is not only incredibly childish, but ignorant as well. Did you not read how I am well aware that my music gets pirated as well? So by your logic, I'm getting 'raped' too. (Even though I don't see it that way) I think your posts do not contribute anything at all to this thread seeing as they mostly seem centered around demonizing me rather than making a relevant point. The way zircon phrased his arguments has a way better chance of convincing me of his point of view than your posts, so I suggest you take some inspiration from that. Well look who's starting to give a shit about maturity. Convenience is not a strong defense either. Need I remind you that your ad hominem fallacy doesn't make my point any less valid (i.e. why resort to personal attacks in a discussion thread?) I can be a smoker and still say smoking's bad for you, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 Dan, what could Tonehammer do to prevent piracy, or to encourage ppl to buy their stuff? What could your friend actually do about the situation? Could he offer otherwise secret freebies to his customers? Could he do competitions where only his customers can enter and win more Tonehammer stuff? Isn't that a better direction for this thread than hating on an underwater country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 So this thread has basically turned into a support group for the people desperately trying to justify themselves in pirating software. Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannthr Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Did you not read how I am well aware that my music gets pirated as well? So by your logic, I'm getting 'raped' too. Oh, well, then by all means, it's totally okay. Rozovian, you make your own way in this world, but I have no respect for people who attack my family and I don't see WHY I should show respect to people who do. If you want to join that camp, if you really want to join that crew, go right ahead--but if you do, you don't deserve friends in game audio, you don't deserve to be in this family, and you shouldn't feel comfortable in this community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannthr Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 So this thread has basically turned into a support group for the people desperately trying to justify themselves in pirating software. Nice. Seriously, right? I guess I'm not sure WHAT I expected from OCRemix... I just figured there were more people who cared about that sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 My point with the whole "My stuff gets pirated as well" was to make clear that I have a really hard time getting into the mindset of people who WOULD mind it. Because I really don't mind. I don't see why you are trying to polarize/strawman the discussion so much. In the last few months I have spent ~1k $ on music software, and even more on hardware stuff. It's not like I'm making my music without any investment from my side whatsoever. I also don't understand why you're lashing out at Rozovian of all people who's asking you some neutral questions about what you would consider good countermeasures to piracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannthr Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 In the last few months I have spent ~1k $ on music software, and even more on hardware stuff. Poor baby, you spent so much money on your music, clearly it's not enough, you have to steal as well. I feel so sorry for you--will you ever get the recognition you deserve? We wouldn't want you to starve over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 Rozovian, you make your own way in this world, but I have no respect for people who attack my family and I don't see WHY I should show respect to people who do.If you want to join that camp, if you really want to join that crew, go right ahead--but if you do, you don't deserve friends in game audio, you don't deserve to be in this family, and you shouldn't feel comfortable in this community. I'm not, and a little bit of tact and reading comprehension on your part would be good. I started this thread to discuss primarily what developers could do to reduce piracy (my suggestion is to reward customers), not to make it a battlefield for you to indiscriminately lash out at anyone not beginning every post with an allcaps statement how teh piration is teh evulz. But sure, we can all hate on Joren for being cheap and shoplifting virtual goods. Hear that Joren? You're a virtual shoplifter. Teh evulz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Rozovian, you should've known that this discussion was bound to end up like this. Piracy is not what you would call a trivial issue. Thoughts on... [such and such topics] or piration in general? This OP question justifies mostly all of Dan's posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackPanther Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 That's the problem with us as humans right now. We can't understand one another. There can be soooo many factors as to why people pirate software. Some people may not have the means to buy software at all due to financial woes that may not be the persons fault and some people may see music as their only means of escape which could very well be possible. Something as superficial as money isn't gonna stop someone who wants to create music and when we idolize and talk about how amazing these pricey plugins are, The pirates are gonna go for what's deemed highly valuable. Like the saying goes, you get what you paid for so people are gonna hunt for the priciest stuff. Pirating is never gonna stop and we're all gonna look at it in different ways, the best thing we can do is try to understand why some do it and why some don't do it, and try to work for a way to make everyone happy. All this self righteous talk as liquid wind put it, gets us nowhere. I try not to pirate but if I see something of interest, then I'll dabble with it and eventually pay for it when I get the dough. If you have money there's no reason to do it because you can just buy it, so it makes it really easy to not see the other side of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I think there is no countermeasure, because people will always want to steal things when they can get away with it. If they don't mind dealing with cracked software, then good for them. I prefer owning my stuff, and you can't own something that's stolen. And most importantly I want a SOLID rig. Cracked software is problematic, in some cases you have to not install certain parts of it, you have to hack your registry, you have to rely on emulated drivers to intercept dongle calls. My rig right now is rock solid, it can take anything I throw at it and not skip a beat. And I'm also a supporter of trying things before you buy them. If a company has a demo you can use, then that's perfect. If not, download a cracked version and install it on a secondary machine that you can test out, like I recently did with a couple of plugins. One I bought because I liked it, the others I deleted and haven't thought about since. I hate hype, and every new sample library or VST that comes out has nothing but hype and demos created by some of the industries most skilled producers. That tells me absolutely nothing about their product so I have to try it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannthr Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 my suggestion is to reward customers Customers should be rewarded, but that's not going to stop pirates, it's merely a nice thank-you to the customer (and I agree with it, and already mentioned that way early on)--the problem with pirating is not developers, that's like blaming women who get raped for dressing provocatively. The problem with people who pirate are the people who pirate and internet forums with cred who wax philisophical about whether or not its justifiable. It's not. This is not some clinical debate on whether or not pirating is okay, this is real people being hurt by people who are proud to hurt them and that is NOT okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 There is no such thing as "security" on the internet. If you want to stop pirating, you make it un-piratable. How? Take it off the internet for good. Even then, others will upload it. So never put anything on the internet. One person and one computer can break anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 My point with the whole "My stuff gets pirated as well" was to make clear that I have a really hard time getting into the mindset of people who WOULD mind it. Because I really don't mind. You don't mind it because you're losing $5-10 from a grand total of what, 30 people stealing your music? You're not a corporation that has to deal with 1,000,000+ people stealing $500 a piece. Tensei is Tensei's only employee, you don't have to worry about paying ten thousand people, insuring them, and being liable for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 I think there is no countermeasure, because people will always want to steal things when they can get away with it. If they don't mind dealing with cracked software, then good for them. Indeed, at least until big brother sees all we do online. But what could be done to reduce piracy? Obviously, any software could be cracked and downloaded by almost anyone, but that's why I've also suggested on-site promotions. I imagine having done an official FL demo track makes for some pretty good mixing cred, and any mention of your artist name (if unique enough) means you'll be more visible on search engines. Sure, it's not the same as pouring all the tools you could ever want into your lap, but unlike just having thousands of plugins, visibility can get you jobs. Even if everyone and their grandma would have all the tools in the world, not everyone or their grandma will know how to mix or produce stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Poor baby, you spent so much money on your music, clearly it's not enough, you have to steal as well.I feel so sorry for you--will you ever get the recognition you deserve? We wouldn't want you to starve over there. Why would you choose this section in particular to address in such a condescending and sarcastic manner? I tried to illustrate that it's not nearly as black/white of an issue as you seem to want it to be, there's really no reason to respond as vilely as that. Let me repeat an in my opinion much more important section of that post, so you could possibly address it: I am not bothered by people pirating my music, so I actually don't understand the mindset that condemns piracy. You don't mind it because you're losing $5-10 from a grand total of what, 30 people stealing your music? You're not a corporation that has to deal with 1,000,000+ people stealing $500 a piece. Tensei is Tensei's only employee, you don't have to worry about paying ten thousand people, insuring them, and being liable for them. Putting aside the fact that you are making assumptions about my income, what you are getting at is that percentagewise, software gets pirated more than music? I'm curious to see if that's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Indeed, at least until big brother sees all we do online. But what could be done to reduce piracy? Obviously, any software could be cracked and downloaded by almost anyone, but that's why I've also suggested on-site promotions.I imagine having done an official FL demo track makes for some pretty good mixing cred, and any mention of your artist name (if unique enough) means you'll be more visible on search engines. Sure, it's not the same as pouring all the tools you could ever want into your lap, but unlike just having thousands of plugins, visibility can get you jobs. Even if everyone and their grandma would have all the tools in the world, not everyone or their grandma will know how to mix or produce stuff. You can't reduce it. The only company that had a pirate-proof package was protools. You had to buy their hardware interface for the software to work. And when they realized that they were losing the market because of competitors who released software only packages, they started undoing their business model till protools 9 came out this year and is basically a poor mans logic/cubase. The rest of the companies have been going with hardware dongles and just plain old serial numbers. So unless you want to have to pay a $2000 interface with your $600 software package, there's no way to prevent piracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Indeed, at least until big brother sees all we do online. But what could be done to reduce piracy? Obviously, any software could be cracked and downloaded by almost anyone, but that's why I've also suggested on-site promotions. Rewards for customers will not reduce piracy. It will give pirates one more thing to pirate. Example: Give a free plugin to your customer of another plugin. A pirate who has the cracked version of the product will not go "Oh hey look if I buy this product I can get a free plug in!" He will just download a cracked version of the free plugin. What about giving physical things to your customers? The money spent on manufacturing the physical stuff will balance with the money gained from the alleged "reduction" in piracy, if not cause MORE money loss. what you are getting at is that percentagewise, software gets pirated more than music? I'm curious to see if that's true. No. He's saying piracy hurts larger groups than it does a single person. Larger groups need more money. Also, software is more expensive than music. When you're losing that much more money, it becomes a tiny bit of a problem. (sarcasm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Putting aside the fact that you are making assumptions about my income, what you are getting at is that percentagewise, software gets pirated more than music? I'm curious to see if that's true. Well, let's see. I personally know about 20 people who pirate Cubase. There are 4 audio torrent sites that I know of, each with about 10,000-20,000 members, half of these members are "power seeders" which means they download every single release and seed it till the end of time, so they all have bootleg Cubase. There are countless messageboards all over the internet dedicated to Cubase users, I'd wager that at least half those users are bootleggers. Go to non-audio torrent sites like Demonoid and whatever else, and Cubase will have 200-1000 seeds at any given time. So it's safe to assume that 1,000,000 people worldwide are pirating Cubase. If I can see all this bootlegging around me, being a single human being, I'm sure there are countless more like me who have people that they know, torrent sites that they know which I don't, etc etc etc. I'm sure in your blind German rage you'll dismiss my logical conclusion here, but you're just mad and I don't fault you for it. My point is that you have to think about both sides of the argument, not just whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts