League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[Bleck]

fiora has a really boring kit (all of her moves are just slightly different versions of stuff we've already seen) and I'm pretty sure she'll be overpowered when she's released, if only because burst of speed plus lifesteal sounds pretty fucking terrifying

[Tensei]

Blade Waltz (ultimate) - Fiora dashes around the battlefield to deal physical damage to enemy champions. Successive strikes against the same target deal less damage.

Alpha Strike (Active): Master Yi leaps across the battlefield striking up to 4 enemies, dealing magic damage to each enemy with a chance to deal 400 bonus magic damage to minions.

Omnislash

Juggernaut leaps towards the target enemy unit with a damaging attack, and then slashes other nearby enemy units, dealing between 175-250 damage per slash.

Really riot? One champion with that skill wasn't enough yet?

Also doesn't literally every melee carry need some form of lifesteal/regen so they can be put solo top?

[kupernikus]

I don't think Trundle's damage output is that high... it's decent, but all single-target and based on auto attacks. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great champ and probably one of the most balanced around. But I don't think of him as high DPS compared to champs like Riven, Renekton or Lee Sin. He is definitely a tank/initiator/ganker.

Trundle can have some surprisingly nasty burst. He's by far my favorite champ, and I actually have a pretty killer (in my not so humble opinion) guide I've written for him. But I do like trundle as a solo top more than a jungler.

[SoDoM]

Here's a fun fact. Trundle is the least changed champion in the game.

http://www.lol-patch.com/trundle.html

He's only been changed in four patches, and three of those changes were bug fixes. I guess Riot sees him as pretty balanced, too. Pity I never see anyone playing him. He's a neat champ, I just don't like his style.

Check Xerath, only changed in 2 patches and both were bug fixes anyway i hope Riot nerf his range

[eternal Zero]

Really riot? One champion with that skill wasn't enough yet?

Also doesn't literally every melee carry need some form of lifesteal/regen so they can be put solo top?

I'm so sick of Riot's design team.

[zircon]

Yep, don't know what they are thinking. Thing is that their balance team (I guess Morello and co) is actually good. They do a great job of keeping a large chunk of the cast viable. Since I started playing I've seen both overpowered and underpowered champs get balanced out to about the right place. It's a shame that their actual champion design decisions are so unbelievably bland.

[relyanCe]

Every time i think about all the champions i've seen come out, i realize that the game was so much more interesting, varied, and innovative pre-launch.

i'm turning into a LoL romanticist...

[prophetik music]

Yep, don't know what they are thinking. Thing is that their balance team (I guess Morello and co) is actually good. They do a great job of keeping a large chunk of the cast viable. Since I started playing I've seen both overpowered and underpowered champs get balanced out to about the right place. It's a shame that their actual champion design decisions are so unbelievably bland.

i can agree with this. every once and a while an interesting champ shows up, but for the most part it's seeming like some champs are just cookie cutters. there's still cool and unique ideas - like rumble's heat, or lee sin's way of being all over the place - but a lot of champs tend to be 'insert generic dps skill hurr'.

[Tensei]

Yep, don't know what they are thinking. Thing is that their balance team (I guess Morello and co) is actually good. They do a great job of keeping a large chunk of the cast viable. Since I started playing I've seen both overpowered and underpowered champs get balanced out to about the right place. It's a shame that their actual champion design decisions are so unbelievably bland.

Didn't you bring up fact that Graves is pretty much always the best AD carry pick? It makes sense that all champions are more or less viable when they're all relatively minor variations on the same role, but it's still a balance problem because the one champion with slightly better numbers will always be the optimal pick for that role. I feel like very few champions have a 'gimmick' or signature ability that makes them unique by defining their particular role beyond just the caster/carry/support/bruiser/tank archetypes. Orianna is probably the best example of what I'm thinking of.

I also feel like Riot is way too trigger-happy with nerfing every FotM champion because of a whiny self-entitled community, which contributes to the static metagame instead of forcing teams to work around it and the meta to evolve.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Tensei

[eternal Zero]

I also feel like Riot is way too trigger-happy with nerfing every FotM champion because of a whiny self-entitled community, which contributes to the static metagame instead of forcing teams to work around it and the meta to evolve.

This is entirely too true. See: The history of Evelynn.

[zircon]

Yea, IMO Graves is the best. That being said, he's not that high above 2nd + 3rd best, and I think some pros would disagree with me about that assessment anyway (others say Vayne, Kog, Trist are top 3). So he can't be that imbalanced. Plus you do see pros playing Ezreal, Corki and Miss Fortune, so they're all viable on some level.

Also it's not really his numbers that are good, it's his kit. He has a scaling steroid, two long range AOE pokes and a short-range dash. You could reduce his numbers by 25% and I'd say he'd still be really strong. Too much synergy.

[The Derrit]

Check Xerath, only changed in 2 patches and both were bug fixes anyway i hope Riot nerf his range

he's been out for like 3 months tops. trundle has been out almost a year

edit:

it took me like 2 months to get above 1000 elo and now that i am above that, i haven't lost a game yet. its been 8 games

elo hell exists i suppose

Edited February 27, 2012 by The Derrit

[relyanCe]

This is entirely too true. See: The history of Evelynn.

still viable, strangely enough, although you'll always catch looks for playing her. she's an insane killer if you build right.

[The Derrit]

still viable, strangely enough, although you'll always catch looks for playing her. she's an insane killer if you build right.

so is sona

my point being not that you're wrong but just about everyone in the game can be a killer. pink wards and early game denial make her incredibly difficult to be useful with

however, this is not true against dumb people so then she rocks

[Bleck]

This is entirely too true. See: The history of Evelynn.

to be fair, evelynn is pretty anti-fun - regardless of what anyone thinks of balance or metagame, having to consistently waste money on an item that only serves to counter one facet of one specific character so that you don't die to that one specific character is kind of bad character design

twitch and evelynn were nerfed pretty shamelessly, yeah, but the thing is that the stealth mechanic is so ridiculously powerful AND easy to use AND costly to counter that it doesn't really make any sense for twitch or evelynn to have the same numbers or utility that other similar characters do

[prophetik music]

I feel like very few champions have a 'gimmick' or signature ability that makes them unique by defining their particular role beyond just the caster/carry/support/bruiser/tank archetypes. Orianna is probably the best example of what I'm thinking of.

i think it's funny that you're restricting it to those five 'archetypes'. please give me an example of a character design that doesn't fit into at least one of those styles - that is, one that is ranged, one that does lots of damage, one that helps others survive and deal lots of damage, one that is tanky and still does some damage, one that is unkillable. that kind of sounds like every single character in every moba-style game ever. the only role that you didn't mention is 'initiator', which isn't really a role since it's filled by everyone else to some extent. (edit, this isn't supposed to be snarky, i'm really interested in knowing what other ideas you all have)

don't get me wrong, there's a lot that riot could do to improve the quality of the gameplay in this game, and there's a lot they could do to improve the quality of the champs in this game. talk about breaking through roles usually wins up giving you severely gimped (launch orianna, current eve) or way overpowered (summer morde, old jax, old leona, original graves) champs, though. look at the characters that can 'do everything' - like what happened to morde over the summer. he was a do-everythin champ, he could solo teams, he could turn a teamfight just by existing and pressing r, he got pentakills all day (OMG EZ YOU GOTTA TAKE THESE FUCKING STACKS OFF ME). so he got nerfed, and rightfully so. it's a team game, and should focus around teamcomp and teamwork, not some magical flaming asshole hitting a cross-map skillshot and instapopping half your team.

edit: also - blitz jungle. SO. GOOD. first blood every time =)

Edited February 27, 2012 by prophetik music

[Tensei]

i think it's funny that you're restricting it to those five 'archetypes'. please give me an example of a character design that doesn't fit into at least one of those styles - that is, one that is ranged, one that does lots of damage, one that helps others survive and deal lots of damage, one that is tanky and still does some damage, one that is unkillable. that kind of sounds like every single character in every moba-style game ever. the only role that you didn't mention is 'initiator', which isn't really a role since it's filled by everyone else to some extent. (edit, this isn't supposed to be snarky, i'm really interested in knowing what other ideas you all have)

Sure. Pugna in Dota 2 has a skill called Netherward, which drops down a little static minion that lasts for 25 seconds and zaps every enemy in a wide radius each time they cast a spell. The damage at max level is like 1.5 times the manacost of each spell.

Ultimates on initiators and supports can be as high as 600 mana, which makes this skill devastating against low HP/high Mana heroes like that, and basically makes it a bad idea to ever initiate on a team with Pugna when you're not sure if his ward is up.

If I had to describe his role I'd say he's something like a supportive pusher/counterinitiator.

Then there's Broodmother. Her role consists of putting down a ton of webs in her lane (which give her permanent invisibility and lots of HP regen and movement speed) and basically freefarm because she's almost impossible to gank when there are webs around. She also has a skill that lets her spawn lots of minions that can take down multiple towers in a lane within a few minutes if left unchecked so her purpose is to basically put pressure on a single lane for most of the early and midgame and force the enemy team to commit at least two heroes to constantly defend it.

She's a weird hybrid of a pusher/carry with invisibility, but her webs restrict her to a single lane so she can't gank or quickly split push a different lane like most other pushers would.

[eternal Zero]

to be fair, evelynn is pretty anti-fun - regardless of what anyone thinks of balance or metagame, having to consistently waste money on an item that only serves to counter one facet of one specific character so that you don't die to that one specific character is kind of bad character design

twitch and evelynn were nerfed pretty shamelessly, yeah, but the thing is that the stealth mechanic is so ridiculously powerful AND easy to use AND costly to counter that it doesn't really make any sense for twitch or evelynn to have the same numbers or utility that other similar characters do

I dunno. I think the main thing in their favor is that in light of the new buffs Evelynn and Twitch will be receiving they are changing Oracles to a replenishing revealing dust mechanic. We've all gone through this song and dance before but with DotA there were enough ways to deal with stealth that even given how many there are it's totally fine. The issue is that LoL refuses to acknowledge that they just don't have the items to deal with it (until now). Honestly if they just ported in Lightbringer and Hextech Sweeper I think that original Evelynn and Twitch would be totally fine and fun to play and deal with because the onus isn't on costly pink wards or oracles but on items that serve dual purposes.

Also ELO hell in this game is 1500 and below. I speak from experience. Also yeah at anything below 1300 or so Evelynn does just fine cause nobody changes their own plan because they're not good enough to be able to adjust to counter the enemy team and they're at the level of being nearly competent enough to handle their own character.

[prophetik music]

Sure. Pugna in Dota 2 has a skill called Netherward, which drops down a little static minion that lasts for 25 seconds and zaps every enemy in a wide radius each time they cast a spell. The damage at max level is like 1.5 times the manacost of each spell.

Ultimates on initiators and supports can be as high as 600 mana, which makes this skill devastating against low HP/high Mana heroes like that, and basically makes it a bad idea to ever initiate on a team with Pugna when you're not sure if his ward is up.

If I had to describe his role I'd say he's something like a supportive pusher/counterinitiator.

Then there's Broodmother. Her role consists of putting down a ton of webs in her lane (which give her permanent invisibility and lots of HP regen and movement speed) and basically freefarm because she's almost impossible to gank when there are webs around. She also has a skill that lets her spawn lots of minions that can take down multiple towers in a lane within a few minutes if left unchecked so her purpose is to basically put pressure on a single lane for most of the early and midgame and force the enemy team to commit at least two heroes to constantly defend it.

She's a weird hybrid of a pusher/carry with invisibility, but her webs restrict her to a single lane so she can't gank or quickly split push a different lane like most other pushers would.

so pugna's more of a preventative character, right? that actually sounds like something that'd be nice. heimer does a bad job of that in lol, but having someone who can just fry people dumb enough to cast around him would be nice in certain lanes...like, ranged carry/support bot lanes =) can you kill it?

as for broodmother, that role can be filled by a lot of different characters in LoL - irelia, kong, nasus, and morde are a few that come to mind immediately, as they can push super hard and then get back out because they're either so tanky, or have dashes, or both. broodmother sounds really specific, though - like, you can't do anything else with her.

[zircon]

The role I like in HoN/DotA is the ganker. Junglers come kind of close to this in LoL, but even then, only some are considered "ganking junglers" and few champs in other lanes really focus on ganking. In HoN/DotA you have heroes that have very high mobility or stealth/blink mechanics that enable them to set up kills very easily. Think Skarner or Shaco, but more of those, and with more versatility with what lane they can be in.

[Tensei]

Yeah, Pugna's Netherward is destroyable, but it's possible to hide it behind trees because the range on it is pretty generous. It doesn't do much against characters with high HP or ones that rely mostly on autoattack DPS though. He's a pretty situational pick overall.

As for Brood, her role might be very narrow, but she's REALLY damn good at it. I'm not exaggerating when I say it takes her only a few minutes to take down 2-3 towers if you leave her alone, and her survivability with the webs makes her one of the only characters in the game that can reliably lane 1v2 or 1v3.

Oh, since Zircon brought up gankers, I can't help but mention Nightstalker. His skills are pretty generic (single-target slow+damage, single-target silence), but his gimmick is that he gets way faster and more dangerous during nighttime. Day and night each last about 12 minutes of ingame time and are generally pretty ignorable as a mechanic, but suddenly just picking him forces the enemy team to be on their toes during the night because he can outdamage and outrun almost everyone at that point (at least in earlygame).

Edited February 27, 2012 by Tensei

[Bleck]

nightstalker is fun for twelve minutes and then not for twelve

[eternal Zero]

Also brood has no equal in LoL. Her spiderlings are capable of jungling without her. Pushing without her. And to a really careless support killing without her. Controllable units really do a lot for the diversity in the game space.

Edit: Also to chime in there's the strat in DotA of putting a character whose ult you want ASAP mid then lane swapping to give the true mid the lane. This is most common with guys like Zeus who don't necessarily carry very hard even if farmed so just get his ult up and running then give someone else the lane. Or guys like Hellbringer. Again gankers love this kind of thing too. That's not seen in LoL largely due to lack of TP scrolls to allow for quick lane movement.

Edited February 28, 2012 by eternal Zero

[Bleck]

[zircon]

Hahaha, so good.

Also I'm now at about 1340 ELO, the highest I've been in awhile. Playing almost exclusively Graves, with some Ashe and Soraka mixed in. I've found that if you can really zone people out at bot and get high CS, it can significantly impact the game. Sometimes other lanes will feed but I'm 50-60 CS ahead of the enemy carry, usually with no deaths and a few kills/assists as well. I also always do the 3x Doran's/Wriggles build now. It's so safe and strong.