League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[zircon]

There is no way Riot would ever do that, and for good reason... virtually the entire playerbase would hate it. Imagine if you join a game and you're paired with 4 people that have literally never played before, and you're up against people in Diamond. Think about how much people rage NOW when they have someone on their team that they perceive is 'incompetent', and imagine how bad it will be then. Or, if you're a skilled player, say in the top 10%, 90% of your teammates and enemies will be bad. That is also really not fun.

If anything I could see them doing a total random matchmaking *option* but it's senseless to get rid of matchmaking altogether... it would be suicide.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Who says get rid of it? I'm saying it's dumb but I'm not saying it's better off not being there...

Also, Bleck, you can't learn a MOBA game through experience. It's all meta-game, the knowledge of which is acquired through watching pro matches, reading up on numbers and how stats affect each other, and knowing the abilities of all the champions or heroes.

There is no possible way you can play this game and be even remotely decent without someone playing with you, teaching you, or showing you, or you do your own research. It's like any strategy game. That's why the vast majority of the LoL population is below Gold tier, even though there are 3 tiers above it and 2 below. I believe the last time I checked, Silver V (bottom of the trash pile we call silver) holds the most players of any tier division.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Neblix

[Brushfire]

Who says get rid of it? I'm saying it's dumb but I'm not saying it's better off not being there...

Also, Bleck, you can't learn a MOBA game through experience. It's all meta-game, the knowledge of which is acquired through watching pro matches, reading up on numbers and how stats affect each other, and knowing the abilities of all the champions or heroes.

I disagree. Those pros shape that meta through experience. The rest of the game is built on coatails of the pros.

[relyanCe]

I disagree. Those pros shape that meta through experience. The rest of the game is built on coatails of the pros.

I for one learned MOBA mechanics through experience

years and years of experience through 3 or 4 distinct games, of course, to even get semi-decent, that is

[Nabeel Ansari]

Mechanics are not enough to even win Bronze games.

Also, Brushfire, that is incorrect. The meta is not shaped through what happens in the games, it's shaped through study of the numbers.

You can plausibly learn much about the meta if you devoted hours to reading the numbers and knew how to do things like DPS optimization and optimal team composition through lots of math.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Theorycraft

[relyanCe]

whoever wants to take a break from whatever we're arguing about now should get on skype

DUNK SQUAD ASSEMBLE

for a good time call samuelalba

[Bleck]

There is no way Riot would ever do that, and for good reason... virtually the entire playerbase would hate it.

because everyone loves the current system amirite fellas~

Imagine if you join a game and you're paired with 4 people that have literally never played before, and you're up against people in Diamond.

it's already heavily encouraged to treat new players with respect and try to impart knowledge on them; I think it's not only strategically but ethically correct to go out of your way to try and help new players, and as such the ragings of someone matched with some people 'less good' than them is largely irrelevant to my opinion of whether or not matchmaking should be a thing

Think about how much people rage NOW when they have someone on their team that they perceive is 'incompetent', and imagine how bad it will be then.

I think your choice of the word perceive here is what's important; even in a system where the top priority is matching players of the same skill level with each other, people still scream and sneer at each other over perceived skill differences

to me it seems like whether or not people are matched up with the same skill level is irrelevant, since angry fucktards are just gonna bitch and moan regardless

Or, if you're a skilled player, say in the top 10%, 90% of your teammates and enemies will be bad. That is also really not fun.

like I said before, it should be the responsibility of skilled players to help their teammates be better; I don't think it's reasonable to say that the needs of the relatively few top players should outweigh the needs of the rest of the playerbase that makes the game popular in the first place

There is no possible way you can play this game and be even remotely decent without someone playing with you, teaching you, or showing you, or you do your own research.

I disagree. Those pros shape that meta through experience. The rest of the game is built on coatails of the pros.

I think that both of those statements are correct-ish; on the one hand it's entirely likely that mobas are inherently impossible to learn without outside knowledge, and on the other hand it also seems pretty possible to learn how to play just by playing (I for one don't read guides or watch the pros and I feel like I'm pretty okay at the game)

however my point is that the former shouldn't be a thing; if it's impossible to learn how to play a game by playing that game, that's a result of poor design, regardless of whether or not it's arguably a characteristic of mobas and etc.

a central tenet of any video game's design, competitive or not, should be minimizing the amount of outside-the-game-itself help that a player must need to enjoy it; I think a standard for any game to strive for should be, you know, making players actually want to play the game, as opposed to making players feel like they have to go read a goddamn book on how to get better

there's also the whole thing where watching someone else play probably doesn't make you mechanically better (combos, skillshots, reaction times, etc.), just strategically (i.e when and where to ward, team composition, etc.) - so to me, saying that one must watch others to learn how to get good is paradoxical, because by doing so you're minimizing the time spent actually getting good at the things that are really going to win you the game

Also, Brushfire, that is incorrect. The meta is not shaped through what happens in the games, it's shaped through study of the numbers.

yeah see the thing is that you're both right

back in season 1 and early season 2 malphite was hilariously overpowered numerically and mechanically and nobody played as him because nobody had given him enough of a chance to realize what he could and would do to an enemy team

then one stream guy started playing him top and never lost and all of a sudden malphite is op as fuck and everyone is playing as him; he'd been in this state ready to be abused all along but nobody thought to actually do so until one guy decided to open the floodgates

the metagame is and will continue to be shaped by a combination of mathematical advantages and experiences/expectations

Edited August 20, 2013 by Bleck

[relyanCe]

cmon i need like 3 people

[Bleck]

meeeeeeeeeeeeh maybe later

add me regardless DrBleck (blitzbleck on skype)

[zircon]

I think it could be interesting to have a 'no matchmaking' option, but again I think the overwhelming majority of people would hate it. You would think from a vocal minority that everyone hates existing matchmaking but the metrics would seem to say otherwise. After Riot switched the system over to the new 'leagues' thing (which is still the same matchmaking algorithm, just a coat of paint on top) they reported that there was a noticeable increase in the % of the playerbase playing ranked.

Perception IS everything. The current system has some edge cases but mathematically you are going to be matched fairly well most of the time, as opposed to a random system which will mean you're statistically going to be matched really badly most of the time. I have played matches of LoL with smurfs, or placement matches where there were people who clearly did not belong there (i.e. ridiculously good, or absolute beginners) and those games simply were not fun.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Bleck, look at chess. You can't be good at chess just by playing it. You have to learn strats.

So chess is a bad game.

Anyways having good mechanics like farming and multicasting is a good thing, but it won't win you games past Bronze I and you'll still be the bottom 40% of players who have no clue how the game is played (synonymous to some high school nerds casually playing chess in comparison to an actual legit chess tournament player). If you have terrible positioning and don't know how mid and late game pressure strats work, you're going to lose every game. Every one of the losses I have in Silver is because of a late game throw, not because the enemy team consistently rolled us over with better farming and skillshots.

You can do amazing early game and still lose because you and your teammates don't know how to work an advantage (can't really count on people 100% for this until you get to about Gold IV). This is why you should never give up a game at Bronze or Silver. People are really bad at the transition to late game and throws are very frequent. This is because it is a strategy game with moves made by human beings. People do stupid stuff all the time and if you're warding enough it's easy to catch. Delaying the game also increases respawn timers, so if you catch their throw (har har) and cripple their team enough to actually kill them, it's a free push for win.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Neblix

[Bleck]

Bleck, look at chess. You can't be good at chess just by playing it. You have to learn strats.

So chess is a bad game.

chess isn't a video game, dude

[Nabeel Ansari]

chess isn't a video game, dude

Why do video games have to follow a specific set of rules? If we can have a game that is considered intelligent and challenging with physical pieces, why can't we also have a game like that but on a screen?

[prophetik music]

i would complain that you're drowning the legitimate LoL discussion with this crab battle of an argument, but there is none, so whatever

[Bleck]

Why do video games have to follow a specific set of rules? If we can have a game that is considered intelligent and challenging with physical pieces, why can't we also have a game like that but on a screen?

1) because board games and video games are separate mediums of entertainment with wildly differing overall structures

2) because chess strategy has nothing to do with mechanical execution i.e learning to play chess does not involve learning to physically pick up a piece and move it

3) because a game being intelligent and challenging (i.e having depth) is not the same thing as a game being opaque and obtuse; it doesn't require intelligence or skill to stop playing a video game so that you can go have someone explain to you how to play a video game

basically the idea here is that a game being impenetrably incomprehensible is not (or should not) be what makes a game competitive

[OceansAndrew]

i would complain that you're drowning the legitimate LoL discussion with this crab battle of an argument, but there is none, so whatever

I'll get things back on track!!

I mentioned this to the crew the night we played, but I think it's important enough to merit message board discussion.

I love the playstyle and skillset of Blitzcrank, but the fact that it's the robot from chrono trigger and not a totted-out hunny makes it a dealbreaker for me to ever want to play. GG RIOT HUNNYS OP.

[Jamphibious]

I'll get things back on track!!

I mentioned this to the crew the night we played, but I think it's important enough to merit message board discussion.

I love the playstyle and skillset of Blitzcrank, but the fact that it's the robot from chrono trigger and not a totted-out hunny makes it a dealbreaker for me to ever want to play. GG RIOT HUNNYS OP.

Gotta have da hunnies.

Leona is my hunny.

I played some ranked with her and got placed in Silver II! So exciting.

[prophetik music]

nice =)

on another note, WE DID DAT DUNK SQUAD LAST NIGHT. but we were terrible so we still lost twice. i think we did vi/darius/jarvan/trist ap/zac but i don't remember. we jumped a lot but mostly just died. first we turned into dank squad (at 3-12), then dink squad. there was a significant lack of SLAMMA JAMMA although we did facesmash an afk MF with all of our ults which was jawsome.

[Theory of N]

nice =)

on another note, WE DID DAT DUNK SQUAD LAST NIGHT. but we were terrible so we still lost twice. i think we did vi/darius/jarvan/trist ap/zac but i don't remember. we jumped a lot but mostly just died. first we turned into dank squad (at 3-12), then dink squad. there was a significant lack of SLAMMA JAMMA although we did facesmash an afk MF with all of our ults which was jawsome.

I totally jumped on Zilean and killed him. Once.

[Bleck]

YES.

HELL YES.

HELL FUCKING YES.

[relyanCe]

picture has teemo in the background, burn it before it consumes us all

also dat new leona skin

[prophetik music]

we did a bunch of in-house games last night with 6-8 people. super fun! we were all on chat so there was a bit of joking and trolling involved, and as long as a player wasn't trying to throw we all had a ton of fun. we did one summoners rift game 3v4 (50 minutes! jax and jayce got fed and we rolled at the end) and then two arams that were 4v4 i think.

additionally, i don't know why i ever build ap on malphite. i had 675 armor last night and killed two champs with thornmail alone. never going back to ap burst.

edit: as a note, i've never built that much armor before, but not only is randuins stupid (5.5s slow), the difference between 400 and 675 armor is only 7% more damage reduction (80%-87%). never bothered to figure out the ratios before. kinda fun.

[Garian]

I got an email message that at least there was a break in and a number of accounts may have been compromised including names and hashed passwords, so you should probably change your password if you haven't been playing.

[OceansAndrew]

yeah, it automakes you change your password when you log in.

OCR group was super fun, and I look forward to being less of a liability

[Nabeel Ansari]

yeah, it automakes you change your password when you log in.

OCR group was super fun, and I look forward to being less of a liability

When you went ham on Nasus and got that shutdown I was like

"SHIT JUST GOT REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL"